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	<title>Comments on: Partying Like It&#8217;s 1980.  Time to open Cold War 2.0</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/</link>
	<description>Firedoglake weblog</description>
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		<title>By: MrWhy</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1581166</link>
		<dc:creator>MrWhy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1581166</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I’m late to this post, but if Ian’s summary of the facts is correct, and it seems to be, then most everything we’ve heard from McCain, Bush, CRice, Krauthammer, is &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9Bk42oagh0&amp;feature=related&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Idiot Wind&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m late to this post, but if Ian’s summary of the facts is correct, and it seems to be, then most everything we’ve heard from McCain, Bush, CRice, Krauthammer, is <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9Bk42oagh0&amp;feature=related" rel="nofollow">Idiot Wind</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: ekunin</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1581145</link>
		<dc:creator>ekunin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1581145</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think you’re wrong. Putting it on an individual level, if someone invades your space and challenges you, you either fight or run. Russia may not be a democracy (increasingly neither is the US) but Russia was asking not to be pushed and we pushed. I don’t know Saakashvili but I find it impossible to believe he challenged Russia without some encouragement from us. He may be a drunk, but hopefully he’s not crazy. It’s like the missle agreement with Poland. Who needs that? It is an in your face challenge. Bush plays a dangerous, pointless game, perhaps because as Ian said, God told him to.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you’re wrong. Putting it on an individual level, if someone invades your space and challenges you, you either fight or run. Russia may not be a democracy (increasingly neither is the US) but Russia was asking not to be pushed and we pushed. I don’t know Saakashvili but I find it impossible to believe he challenged Russia without some encouragement from us. He may be a drunk, but hopefully he’s not crazy. It’s like the missle agreement with Poland. Who needs that? It is an in your face challenge. Bush plays a dangerous, pointless game, perhaps because as Ian said, God told him to.</p>
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		<title>By: YYSyd</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1581095</link>
		<dc:creator>YYSyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:47:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1581095</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The “West” did not win the cold war.  The very nature of it was such that it was a stale mate.  Soviet Union did fall apart, but it crumbled from within.  What the “West” did do was to help Russia into crony capitalist chaos by supporting an incompetent leader that was a drunk and taking advantage of a country in chaos.  I think Poots deserves some credit for rebuilding from the wreck.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The “West” did not win the cold war.  The very nature of it was such that it was a stale mate.  Soviet Union did fall apart, but it crumbled from within.  What the “West” did do was to help Russia into crony capitalist chaos by supporting an incompetent leader that was a drunk and taking advantage of a country in chaos.  I think Poots deserves some credit for rebuilding from the wreck.</p>
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		<title>By: RoodsterCrows</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1581093</link>
		<dc:creator>RoodsterCrows</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1581093</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Got to your post late, but great job Ian.  I am always amazed by honest attempts to analyze events that are met with derision by even supposedly progressive voices.  No one seems to have a clue and in all probablity that includes me.  But Russian paranoia might be better understood if people looked at a map of the NATO/Warsaw Pact line of the late 70’s and the map as it stands today. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To understand that, just assume that the U.S. econony has tanked, and suddenly Japan, Mexico and Canada are looking at treaties with the new power - China.  China then pushes Cuba to eastablish an early missle defense system to protect Venezula from attack by us.  Voila, the Pacific Treaty Alliance will “put a lid on nation building/regime change tendencies of America.”  The analogy is simplistic and superfluous, but the psychology isn’t.  I, like you, will not waste any breath defending the Russians.  But Saakashavili and his “American” lobbyists in DC are hardly saints in this either. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Neocons are deriding our western Europe allies for not doing anything about Georgia (even though it was France, as opposed to our powerless State Dept., who got something done.)  And then moderates and even progressives suddenly go monocular: “Georgia good, Putin bad. Let’s do something.  Hmmm.  Can’t go to war - no troops available.”  So let’s stamp our feet and talk about the rebirth of the red menace which surely will have tanks returning to the Brandenburg Gate within five years.  We can’t be seen as unpatriotic - we’re all Georgians now (McCain/Obama for President tm.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Wow, it’s been almost a century since the confluence of technology, population growth, nationalism and ill-begotten treaties met when the Serbian gang that couldn’t shoot straight stumbled upon a meaningless Archduke.  The world hasn’t changed much since war went global.  We still look at geo-politics through the lens of “my football team fanaticism” where all the dirty plays are by the other team and the refs never give us a break.  Unfortunately, this always results in a lot of people who can’t afford a ticket getting killed or maimed. Pretty effin sad.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Got to your post late, but great job Ian.  I am always amazed by honest attempts to analyze events that are met with derision by even supposedly progressive voices.  No one seems to have a clue and in all probablity that includes me.  But Russian paranoia might be better understood if people looked at a map of the NATO/Warsaw Pact line of the late 70’s and the map as it stands today. </p>
<p>To understand that, just assume that the U.S. econony has tanked, and suddenly Japan, Mexico and Canada are looking at treaties with the new power &#8211; China.  China then pushes Cuba to eastablish an early missle defense system to protect Venezula from attack by us.  Voila, the Pacific Treaty Alliance will “put a lid on nation building/regime change tendencies of America.”  The analogy is simplistic and superfluous, but the psychology isn’t.  I, like you, will not waste any breath defending the Russians.  But Saakashavili and his “American” lobbyists in DC are hardly saints in this either. </p>
<p>The Neocons are deriding our western Europe allies for not doing anything about Georgia (even though it was France, as opposed to our powerless State Dept., who got something done.)  And then moderates and even progressives suddenly go monocular: “Georgia good, Putin bad. Let’s do something.  Hmmm.  Can’t go to war &#8211; no troops available.”  So let’s stamp our feet and talk about the rebirth of the red menace which surely will have tanks returning to the Brandenburg Gate within five years.  We can’t be seen as unpatriotic &#8211; we’re all Georgians now (McCain/Obama for President tm.)</p>
<p>Wow, it’s been almost a century since the confluence of technology, population growth, nationalism and ill-begotten treaties met when the Serbian gang that couldn’t shoot straight stumbled upon a meaningless Archduke.  The world hasn’t changed much since war went global.  We still look at geo-politics through the lens of “my football team fanaticism” where all the dirty plays are by the other team and the refs never give us a break.  Unfortunately, this always results in a lot of people who can’t afford a ticket getting killed or maimed. Pretty effin sad.</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580940</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 05:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Cold War 2.0 — bug riddled, and runs perfectly well on a Commador 64.&lt;br /&gt;
Not an upgrade; only renamed for marketing purposes.&lt;br /&gt;
All royalties devolve to corpofascists.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cold War 2.0 — bug riddled, and runs perfectly well on a Commador 64.<br />
Not an upgrade; only renamed for marketing purposes.<br />
All royalties devolve to corpofascists.</p>
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		<title>By: Watson</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580813</link>
		<dc:creator>Watson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580813</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;‘there are no good guys in this episode’&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Including the guys running the USA. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Much of this jousting is about energy, but today’s doomsday weaponry means that these disputes can no longer be resolved by force. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Everyone in the world needs access to energy. It’s time to treat energy resources as a public trust, and to adopt binding arbitration among nation-states.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(PS: the US re-took Fallujah using pretty much the same approach that Russia used to re-take Grozny.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>‘there are no good guys in this episode’</p>
<p>Including the guys running the USA. </p>
<p>Much of this jousting is about energy, but today’s doomsday weaponry means that these disputes can no longer be resolved by force. </p>
<p>Everyone in the world needs access to energy. It’s time to treat energy resources as a public trust, and to adopt binding arbitration among nation-states.</p>
<p>(PS: the US re-took Fallujah using pretty much the same approach that Russia used to re-take Grozny.)</p>
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		<title>By: MrWhy</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580783</link>
		<dc:creator>MrWhy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580783</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Their economy is in the tank, too.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Their economy is in the tank, too.</p>
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		<title>By: wesgpc</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580770</link>
		<dc:creator>wesgpc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580770</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Facts are not pure but they must be recognized.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Also important to remember that both Georgian and Russian peacekeepers were a legitimate part of an international peacekeeping arrangement, under the auspices of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). They were not freelancing or bogus. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is bad blood on both sides, and both were exploiting the situation as much as they could. But that does not excuse a massive attack by one party, unless they can show that is was a necessary pre-emptive attack in order to defend their own borders. Anything else is very very bad, especially for a party (Gerogia) that wants to join a mutual *self-defense pact* with the US and Europe, and one that requires a *massive military response* to any attack on any of the members.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Do you want to US troops to be sent to defend a member state who started that kind of war? All the facts are not in yet, but I think the main outlines are becoming clear.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It is too bad that both the US and Russia have acted badly. But have people forgotten that we survived one Cold War. Rash gambles, foolish bluffs and ostentatious refusal to communicate were not what got us through that.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I do not understand why people have such an oddly defeatist and bitter attitude. Did risky invasions and military strife on the part of the US play an crucial role in winning the last Cold War?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I was a little too young to remember the politics. But I do remember some, and I can read. There was the exactly the same fretting and downcast conviction that the soft gullible rich and lax US and Europe could never win the Cold War. The Rooskies were hard, wiley, infinitely more cunning and patient and disciplined than the pampered goofs in the West. And of course, democracies just were not capable of the appropraite Resolve, Guts and Daring in confronting the bully. So, of course, rash and dramatic action was needed right away (before what deadline?), but, probably all was doomed.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How did that first Cold War turn out for you?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And I am a citizen of the US, and I have some influence there, and none in Russia or Georgia. So I will very loudly call US policy stupid and dangerous if I think it is, and recommend a better course for my country, and I do not care if anyone thinks that makes me pro-Russia.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Facts are not pure but they must be recognized.</p>
<p>Also important to remember that both Georgian and Russian peacekeepers were a legitimate part of an international peacekeeping arrangement, under the auspices of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). They were not freelancing or bogus. </p>
<p>There is bad blood on both sides, and both were exploiting the situation as much as they could. But that does not excuse a massive attack by one party, unless they can show that is was a necessary pre-emptive attack in order to defend their own borders. Anything else is very very bad, especially for a party (Gerogia) that wants to join a mutual *self-defense pact* with the US and Europe, and one that requires a *massive military response* to any attack on any of the members.</p>
<p>Do you want to US troops to be sent to defend a member state who started that kind of war? All the facts are not in yet, but I think the main outlines are becoming clear.</p>
<p>It is too bad that both the US and Russia have acted badly. But have people forgotten that we survived one Cold War. Rash gambles, foolish bluffs and ostentatious refusal to communicate were not what got us through that.</p>
<p>I do not understand why people have such an oddly defeatist and bitter attitude. Did risky invasions and military strife on the part of the US play an crucial role in winning the last Cold War?</p>
<p>I was a little too young to remember the politics. But I do remember some, and I can read. There was the exactly the same fretting and downcast conviction that the soft gullible rich and lax US and Europe could never win the Cold War. The Rooskies were hard, wiley, infinitely more cunning and patient and disciplined than the pampered goofs in the West. And of course, democracies just were not capable of the appropraite Resolve, Guts and Daring in confronting the bully. So, of course, rash and dramatic action was needed right away (before what deadline?), but, probably all was doomed.</p>
<p>How did that first Cold War turn out for you?</p>
<p>And I am a citizen of the US, and I have some influence there, and none in Russia or Georgia. So I will very loudly call US policy stupid and dangerous if I think it is, and recommend a better course for my country, and I do not care if anyone thinks that makes me pro-Russia.</p>
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		<title>By: LeeNYC</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580706</link>
		<dc:creator>LeeNYC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yes, the decision to attack was a massive escalation of the situation. Perhaps this is unintentional, but by delineating all the right steps Russia took to redress the situation, you portray Russia’s actions as understandable and therefore justifiable.  Russia yearns to be an imperial power, again–just like the US.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, the decision to attack was a massive escalation of the situation. Perhaps this is unintentional, but by delineating all the right steps Russia took to redress the situation, you portray Russia’s actions as understandable and therefore justifiable.  Russia yearns to be an imperial power, again–just like the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Welsh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/14/the-krauthammer-and-max-boot-longing-for-a-new-cold-war/#comment-1580642</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Welsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2008 02:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I suppose I’ll give you that point.  But I very much doubt they’re going to do it, or even ask for it.  Georgia will remain independent.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose I’ll give you that point.  But I very much doubt they’re going to do it, or even ask for it.  Georgia will remain independent.</p>
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