Hold onto your boots, because this may only be one of a number of "Russian Wars of Reunification." Why do I say so? Well, read this:
Upping the ante, Ukraine said it reserved the right to bar Russian warships from returning to their nominally Ukrainian – formerly Russian – base of Sevastopol , on the Crimean peninsula. On Saturday, Russia accused Ukraine of "arming the Georgians to the teeth."
Given the cease fire, this threat may no longer be immenent, but the situation in Sevastopol is highly flammable.
Sevastopol was founded in 1783 as a naval base by the Russians. In 1954 Russia gave Sevastopol and the Crimea, which it’s a part of, to Ukraine, then a province of the USSR. When Ukraine separated it claimed both Crimea and Sevastopol. Russia disagreed and there was some violence over the issue.
In 1991 Crimea voted for independence. In 1994 a referendum passed again for independence and for Crimeans to be able to take Russian citizenship. The Russian parliament voted to rescind the 1954 transfer.
In 1997 a bilateral treaty granted Ukraine both Sevastopol and the Crimea, while another treaty gave Russia the right to use Sevastopol as a naval base for 20 years, though that could be renewed.
This year, the Ukrainian president announced that the Ukraine is presently not planning on renewing the lease. If that happens, Russia loses control of a naval base it had had for over 200 years. It won’t be without an outlet to the Black Sea, mind you, but Sevastopol is a superior base.
More importantly, the majority of the population in Crimea (about 60%) identify as Russian. About 70% of the population of Sevastopol identifies as Russian.
The Russians have made noises that they are very unhappy. 1997 was probably the nadir of Russian power, and Sevastopol is an iconic Russian city which was founded by Russia and was Russian for a very very long time. The majority of the population is Russian and does not want to be part of the Ukraine. (Indeed in 1992 Ukraine let the Crimea know that if they tried to leave, they would be stopped by military force).
In May of this the speaker of the upper house of Russia’s parliament had some words about Sevastpol:
Sergei Mironov, speaker of the upper house of Russia’s parliament, said on Monday Russia could claim back Sevastopol, a Russian naval base on Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula.
Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko recently ruled not to extend lease terms for Russia’s Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine after May 28, 2017.
"Undoubtedly, we must raise the issue ourselves, and if necessary, with the Ukrainian authorities," Mironov told reporters commenting on Yushchenko’s decision.
"We should study the issue more closely. If Yushchenko is making such statements, we can also start looking into the issue properly," the senator said, describing Yushchenko’s instructions as "illogical and untimely."
So, let’s run through this.
- Majority Russian population? Check.
- Ignored referenda in which they population indicated they’d rather be independent and prefer Russia to their current government? Check.
- Deadly important strategic resource? Check.
- Russian area which was under Russian rule for 2 centuries? Check. (We’ll ignore the Crimean Tartars, though they don’t deserve it, as they were reduced to a fraction of the population)
All of the conditions that existed in Ossetia exist, with the addition of the fact that Ossetia really isn’t that important, while Sevastopol is one of the most important military ports in the world.
So, the next question is balance of power. Georgia’s militarily is rather small. The Ukrainian military, on the other hand, clocks in at about 300,000 troops, putting it at about 1/3 of the Russian army’s size. Russia’s army is better equipped overall, the Ukraine having mostly cold war vintage equipment. The Ukraine’s not part of NATO, but it has been getting a lot of training from the West.
A war with the Ukraine, therefore, is not a walkover, the way which one with Georgia, I’m afraid, is.
On the other hand, assuming no Western intervention, the smart money is still on Russia to win such a war. Again, the question is this: are you willing to die for the Ukraine’s right to keep a bunch of people under its control who don’t want to be under its control?
Right now the US is completely overextended. Europe is dependent on Russian oil and natural gas. China is certainly not going to interfere. On the other hand, with Obama’s election, or even possibly with McCain’s, there is a real chance that the US will end the Iraq war and move its military back into a posture where it can actually be useful and a credible deterrent. Plus Ukraine has been pushing hard for NATO membership and will probably get it sometime in the next few years.
If Russia wants the Crimea and Sevastopol back, or even just Sevastopol, its window of opportunity is closing. It has a year or two at most to do something.
My bet is that it will do something. My further bet is that right now additional Russian military units are being deployed to the Ukrainian border as fast as the Kremlin can move them. If the Ukraine had refused to allow the Black Sea Fleet back into Sevastopol or if for some odd reason it still does despite the cease-fire, Russian military action is probable. And as with Georgia, don’t expect it to be limited to the area in question.
Moreover, if Ukraine doesn’t give Russia an excuse now, I expect Russia to be looking for one, soon.
As Brezezinski said in The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives:
Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.
Now, that doesn’t mean Russia isn’t an empire without Ukraine, just that it’s not really both a European and Asian empire. Ukraine is the place Russia needs back to be a power in European politics again.
If I were the Kremlin, I’d hit Ukraine hard, in force, not just the Crimea. And if it turns out their military is a paper tiger and it collapses, well, maybe I’d decide, in Putin and Medvedev’s shoes, that being known as the men who put the Russian empire back together is pretty sweet. Sure, it’d take 10 years to pacify them, but whatever. Russia has the patience. Kill 10% of the population. If that doesn’t work kill another 10%. Rinse, wash, repeat till they get a clue.
And if they fight well, no matter, I’d still expect to do well enough to peel off Sevastopol and probably all of the Crimea.
And why not? They are Russian populated. They don’t want to be part of the Ukraine and are kept in the Ukraine only by threat of military force. Countries borders are clearly not sacrosanct, as NATO and the West proved by creating Kosovo. So why not an independent Crimea, guaranteed by lots of Russian troops? Or even just have a referendum and then make it part of Russia?
For Russia, the combination of time pressure created by the expansion of NATO, the pressure from Western encirclement in states it considers part of its near abroad, and the current strategic overcommitment by the United States combine to suggest that this next year or two, and even more, these next few months, are the best chance it’s going to have to take back areas it believes should be Russian.
South Ossetia was first. But it may well not be last. If I were Ukraine, I’d let those ships back into Sevastopol, because odds are Russia is just waiting for an excuse. And violating a treaty would give Russia all the excuse it needs to itself unilaterally discard the treaty which gave Crimea to the Ukraine, then create some "facts on the ground".
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Ian,
Hard to overstate my gratitude for how clearly and completely you are explaining all of this. Kudos.
Another substance-free post by Ian. When are ya gonna actually put some effort into this?
Back from dinner with friend of Ukranian extraction if anyone is interested in sample of one about how Ukranians think about this issue.
eCAHN,
Would love to hear.
Ian, I am astounded that you know all this. What a good and alarming post. The theme of the Newshour discussion tonight, more on Georgia, but also on the future, was the both the failures of and the imperative of W’s and the US’ paying attention and knowing what the Russian intentions are…you know, beyond Put’s soul appeal. I need to get out my world map. Thanks
Yah, I know. I need more detail in my posts. And they should be longer. That’s what I hear from the other editor and writers all the time.
“Ian. 10,000 word essays! That’s what we want! And start adding footnotes like you used to in the old days! Readers love that!”
:)
posted by foothillsmike earlier today. Think McCrazy is anything but a neocon-squared?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdJUCU1UH2w
I’m sure Joe and Lindsey will get this all straightened out on their trip over there.
Excellent post, Ian. How do you know all this stuff?
Will Blackwater be flying them in? Will they be carrying ransom money this month?
Fluid borders
Missed Condi’s presser today. Has she sufficiently stocked up on shoes yet so that she’s ready to travel any time soon?
The real question is how much Putin is willing to risk in order to go down in history as a truly great Russian leader. The man who brought large chunks of the old russian empire back under Russian control would get bigger chapters.
And if he wants to, I really think the time is now. If I were him, assuming troops are in position, or maybe even if they aren’t fully, I’d be praying for the Ukrainians to deny reentry to the fleet.
Seriously man, remarkable work as usual. I’m in awe of what FDL has become and the mix it offers. A fantastic model of what the New Media can be. It’s up to each of us as readers to spread the word and get more people to check out FDL and other New Media outlets.
Replacing the Conglomerate Media Complex with the New Media is one of the most important steps of restoring the Constitution.
Condi’s going over to look into Puin’s “sole”.
Read a lot. :)
And Sevastopol and Crimea are big in world history. Lots of wars fought there. Massively strategic. I can’t imagine what pressure/bribes would have made Yeltsin sign it away. Putin must ritually curse his name every day. Despite what many Westerners think of him, he really was mostly an awful President. Had personal bravery though, but corrupt to the core and saw the office mostly as a way to enrich himself, his family and friends.
I always thought it was the army that would finally lose it and take control, but it was secret police/spies.
That would be “Putin”.
Thanks Bonkers, I’m glad you like it. This is a post I’m proud of, it took a lot of writing. And thanks for the kind words about FDL. We keep trying to figure out how to make it work better, but it’s often unclear how to.
It’s not just the Crimea but eastern Ukraine as well which is majority Russian. This is one of the reasons why it probably will be necessary to exact a cost from the Russians for their Georgian adventure, not in Georgia of course but on the international stage like the G-8. Basically, if Putin gets away with the invasion of Georgia, there will very likely be other actions such as against Ukraine in the future.
My guide book for these kinds of situations is the Godfather, the Don not Sonny.
Straight McCain from someone who would be considered a liberal in US. (Her parents lived in western Ukraine under Polish administration. Left for US via Austria when Germans invaded.) Russia is evil, uncivilized. 90% in Ukraine voted for independence. Given 20% ethnic Russians (Russia sez 25%), if all Ukranians voted for independence, that means half of ethnic Russians voted for independence. Ukranians HATE Russians. Think Stalin and starvation thru collectivization. 10 million (25% of Ukranian population) died, leaving vast areas unpopulated (the point of the exercise) which led to vast repopulation via ethnic Russians. Putin shot himself in the foot by invading Georgia. Will make all the other former Republics and other spheres of influence much more pro-West. No other alternative. If Georgia had been member of NATO, Russia would never have invaded. She brought up Russian navy in Savastopol issue. She thinks Russia will invade Ukraine.
Just reporting, not agreeing or disagreeing with what she said.
hello everybody …was computerless,for 10 dayz and nothing has seemed to change
blergh. A McCrazy “The original Maverick” ad (”He’ll take on Big Tobacco, Big Oil”, etc.) just interrupted my women’s beach volleyball viewing….
that borders on cataclysmic
He has one? Putin’s a darker man than Bush in many ways. Bush is a grownup kid who likes doing to humans what he did to frogs. He also almost certainly has extensive drug/alcohol based brain damage. Putin is a sophisticated, intelligent man with an excellent education who actually understood what he learned and who plays politics like chess, not poker.
I especially loved the way he did everything he could to prop Bush up in 2004 to make sure he was reelected. Putin understood that keeping the boy emperor in power was key for Putin’s own ambitions. I’m not sure if he’d like McCain to win or not. McCain will do a lot of damage to the US, but he’s just belligerent and stupid enough that he might double down when Putin does one of these adventures.
So will Condi just go relax on a beach somewhere after shoe shopping?
What price would you suggest? Putin’s got more cards than either the US or EU right now. There are subtle things you can do, but Putin will retaliate.
*waving to sadly*
He has one? Putin’s a darker man than Bush in many ways. Bush is a grownup kid who likes doing to humans what he did to frogs. He also almost certainly has extensive drug/alcohol based brain damage. Putin is a sophisticated, intelligent man with an excellent education who actually understood what he learned and who plays politics like chess, not poker.
DING,DING……………. dong
Digg IT!
I agree, and don’t feel one bit sorry for the Ukrainians. They should deal.
hi there ,missed you guys…did a little phone banking for Obama(red state) and was pleasently surprised
pleasent,pleasant?
The specific referendums in Crimea, however, were for independence.
Really disagree with expanding NATO that far. It risks the entire alliance.
But interesting. I do think it will push some of the other Republics towards the West. Unless, of course, they think the West won’t or can’t protect them. Think Finland in the Cold War.
We need to think very clearly about when we’re willing to go to war and with who and for whom. If we are willing to fight for the Ukraine, so be it. But we better think real serious about that – are we willing? Because the Russians might think it’s a bluff and we need to know whether it is ourselves or not.
They can be as pro-West as they want, poor dears, but even if John McCain is president and our troops are out of Iraq & Afghanistan, the US isn’t coming to anybody’s aid when Russian tanks roll in.
I think Ike proved that in 1956, and LBJ again in 1968. No reason to think anything has changed. It’s all about spheres of influence. Ours is not there.
OT/EPUd
Howie Klein has a tasty piece up right now: Rahm Emanuel Gets It Wrong Again– His Tone Deaf War Against Comedy Central And Stephen Colbert
Bwahahahahahaha!
She’s gonna catch a Braves game.
The other former Russian satellites were already pro-Western and anti-Russian. Surely this will harden their positions even further.
Now they have to decide, after watching what just happened to Georgia, just how much the US words of assurance really mean.
Not very much up to this point.
-G
Right. I forgot she loves sports.
ukraine is supposed to be on putin’s list after georgia.
did she mention ukraine’s influence in georgia at all? cuz it’s there.
how many marg’s? no,don’t say. lol……
and if you want to know what it’s all about, aei had a panel broadcast on cspan today, they showed their underwear. bet they wish they could take it back, well, they kinda did, it’s not being run again…..but it’s in the archives, too late…run time 1:41.
hit view then the red button.
http://inside.c-spanarchives.o…..=566908072
And what has the West ever done? Other than the Berlin airlift? Please do ask the Hungarians and Czechoslovakians…
4 mashes on the “Reply” button to say that my #40 was in reply to Ian @ #33.
Not very much up to this point.
You missed the news that Lieberman and Lindsey Graham are headed their way?
I mean, how much more can we give? *g*
Which episode is the one you want us to see. There seems to be a whole lot of ones on that page.
-G
my 39 was to ecahn, reply did’nt work.
Could we give them permanently?
Deputy Dawg and Snagglepuss, enter stage right.
-G
I’m glad to hear that I’m not the only one having problems! Now I’ve learned to just keep mashing on that button until I see the banner above my reply.
Yes. I made such points during the conversation. The key is she (and Ukranians?) think that NATO membership is a magic bullet that will preclude Russian invasion. I suggested that US would not even go that far. Georgia just wasn’t that important to US, and current admin wouldn’t react as she thinks appropriate.
GregB@37
Recognizing reality does not seem to play an important role in how people think about these problems.
My image of this trip is slapstick with those two on their own, competing for the limelight and McCainlight.
greg b at 43–that rhymes..
duh, the one right under the title dude +++…….here’s the shortcut..click on the red button on the right. : )
+++i love the rare opportunities that i get to say things like that instead of them being said to me..heh….
http://www.c-spanarchives.org/…..d=280436-1
Got that. See my 48.
Russia does not have more card. It has energy and nukes. Its energy sector is shaky. It works middleman contracts with the Central Asian republics for a lot of the natural gas it sells to Western Europe. It has not been re-investing in its oil sector. Its conventional forces are not particularly good. Its GDP minus energy is pathetic. In short, it is vulnerable. So although I am not advocating any of this immediately, various things to consider are kicking them out of the G-8, hamstringing their energy development, bilateral agreements political, economic, and military with some of the former members of the USSR that now form Russia’s periphery.
I wrote a few nights ago that the reason that Russia has always been surrounded by enemies is because it turns all of its neighbors into enemies. If we wish to prevent or make less likely further Russian adventures, then we exact a price somewhere where they are vulnerable. It’s not revenge. It’s just business, as they would say in the Godfather.
The problem, however, is that it will be reported in the media as Very Important People on a Very Important Mission that only they could carry off in order to Save The World.
Well, let me introduce politics back into the Olympics. Anyone notice that the 2012 Winter Olympics are scheduled for the Russian Black Sea of Sochi, practically on the border of South Ossetia? They are planning to hold many of the events up in the mountains abutting erstwhile Georgian territory.
Sochi plans continue despite war in Georgia
What do you wanna bet that all those conservatives who have opposed “bringing politics into the Olympics” with China re. Tibet, Darfur, and Myanmar will be caterwauling about doing so with Sochi…a US or International boycott or cancellation. Would a President John McCain travel to Sochi like Bush did to Beijing?
BTW already a bomb has been detonated on a beach at Sochi. Security could be an insane proposition at Sochi, so close to the war zones…with very po’d ethnic minorities (expelled Georgians, restive Chechnyans, etc.) ~ making security precautions in Beijing look mild in comparison.
This is also something that I wrote in an email earlier today:
The Russians gave up the empire that the Soviet Union represented was for the decidedly ethnic reason that they were at the point of losing their majority status in it. Nevertheless they continue to consider the borders of the former USSR as their legitimate sphere of influence. It’s not. When the USSR fell, American policymakers made the realpolitik, and I think wrong, choice to let the major successor state Russia become as weak as possible. They also pressed for the uncontrolled privatization of the national economy that led to the rise of the oligarchs, and massive corruption. Under Putin, the country stabilized but at the cost of returning to a system of centralized government, limited individual freedom, and nationalism. One aspect of this last is the pan-slavism of the 19th century where Russians consider themselves the protector of Slavs, which explains their support of the Serbs and their actions in Kosovo. This nationalism also motivated the crushing of the Chechens (although to be fair the Chechens blew it big time by being unable to create a functioning state when they had the chance and by continuing attacks outside of Chechnya proper).
Oil and gas production has allowed a resurgence of Russia on the world political stage, but Russia is not the former Soviet Union. It still has plenty of nukes but its conventional forces are not very effective. With regard to Georgia, early on the Russians fomented mischief in Abkhazia and Ossetia. This was especially gratuitous given its own history and actions in Chechnya. As often happens, large states think that sovereignty only applies to themselves. Russia hit in Georgia because it could. In fact, it is about the only place where it could. For domestic consumption this is being portrayed as a sign of strength. By most others, it is seen as brutal bullying. It really shows how limited the reach of the Russians is.
We are not facing a new Cold War but we do face a Russia that has re-assumed certain characteristics of a Cold War posture. The way this usually works out in policy terms is a mixture of engagement and punishment. Historically, the Russians have been really good counterpunchers. Bush’s bonehead stupid moves have left them opportunities to do what they wanted to do and portray it as a reaction to something he did. Georgia is payback for their loss of face in Kosovo. Yes, it began under Clinton but Kosovo became independent under Bush. That’s why kicking the Russians out of the G-8 is something to consider. I don’t know if it would be worth it but it would damage Russian prestige. The problem is that if there is no cost to the Russians for Georgia they may do something worse elsewhere, most notably in Ukraine or playing games with energy prices in Western Europe or with gas producing Central Asian states. It is neither nice nor good but it is the kind of thing someone like Putin understands. In fact, it is about the only thing he does understand.
And we are so overextended both militarily and economically, the time is ripe. Nice goin’, Chimpy McCodpiece!
4 mashes on the “Reply” button to say….
Think what it’s gonna do for your fingertips – toughen ‘em up for those slides on your electric guitar.
You still got the band together, right? *g*
Lying Sackofshitisvili.
News examines some of Georgia’s Presidents outlandish claims.
He’s a shit stirrer. The US DOD slapped down the notion, advanced by Sacky that the US DOD was taking over Georgian naval and air bases.
In his Wednesday TV address, he said, “Russia has lost more airplanes than in any conflict of this scale since 1939.” While such figures are not publicly available, the calculation seemed unlikely given how brief the fighting has been and how uneven the two countries’ forces are.
Stats for the Russian air losses in Afghanistan.
*118 aircraft
*333 helicopters
-G
See? Fingers getting tough already — this only took 1 mash!
Link to news story of Sacky’s claims.
-G
competing for the limelight and McCainlight.
Is that a black-light?
Ah… there are the weasel words. You can’t compare Afghanistan which dragged on for years to Georgia. Given that caveat, Saakasvili (sp?) may be correct.
jayt at 42–the neocons have invested MILLIONS of dollars and years of time, and it has arrived…….no way they’re gonna let this one get away..this is a huge big deal, bigger than iraq, they have more invested in georgia..this has been coveted for a long time, and bought and paid for, and the us isn’t coming through, georgia jumped the gun, and now they[’re running to drum up legitimacy..the cspan link i provided tells all..though they certainly didn’t mean it to, it did, i loooove that..i’ll be paying attention to which dems back them up. i will.
all kinds of links out there for those who wish to dig, i’m tired. i give up. take over for me.
stephen payne, former board member of jbanc and bush library fundraiser taking bribes from baltic nations for access, and randy scheunemann…..two of the creepiest persons i[’ve ever researched..look up their lobbyist companies, it’s all there. frank carlucci of carlyle tied in there, too. among others. this ain’t goin’ away real soon, but hopefully cz it’s dirty as hell.
http://www.jbanc.com
How pleasant? Do tell.
Love the experimenting. The efforts are really appreciated.
We all know there’s one constant in life –
Joe Lieberman’s whiningChange.I agree with everything you said, but is the American media bringing up these points.
Facts that are ignored might as well not exist. What are the MSM talking heads saying about this they are after all the balloon floaters of this administration.
Are they supporting McCain and the Neocons drive to save
Georgiathe oil pipeline?Are they saying anything at all.
Yes, please do. Some good news would be nice about now!
Perhaps. I actually am not that outraged over Georgia/Ossetia. Far as I can see Georgia wanted a war, Georgia got the war, Georgia lost the war. They made a miscalculation. Territorial integrity, when it means keeping people in your country who don’t want to be there, is something I have limited respect for and think has done as much harm as good.
If NATO can jump into Kosovo, why can’t Russia jump into South Ossetia? And if Serbia can be broken up against its own will, why can’t Georgia?
Kicking out of the G8? I suppose. It’ll push Russia harder into the Sino-Russian orbit, however.
Any trade retaliation, including embargoes on oil equipment can be dealt with why by return embargoes on actual fuel. When Europe has brown outs, they’ll see the light. Er, so to speak.
oh ugh. I don’t think I can stomach an hour and forty minutes. Can you summarize?
Yeah!
Thankyou for this post Ian, just the thing to give us sweet dreams.
I sympathize with those living in former Soviet territories. I have friends in several, and the feeling towards Russians seems to vary from nervous condescension to outright hatred and dire fear.
I am suspicious of all the amateur geopolitics, however and Risk-style war gaming. Russia has had to deal with eight years of Cheney/Bush, and though they are not nice people, that has affected them as it would be expected to affect anyone.
Expansion of NATO, as it has been done under Clinton and Bush has been a very bad policy. Regular contacts with Russia have been ended by Bush. Some of our supposed defensive installations proposed for Eastern Europe could be used for offensive purposes. Cheney and Bush, and it seems McCain are not very interested in observing neither the letter nor the spirit of international law.
And look at the murky poorly understood events that led to the current mess in Georgia/Ossetia. If there is to be a return to hostile great power rivalry, it should be done after all other options are exhausted. It should not be assumed to happen and then we carry ourselves into fantasy games that are appropriate for beered up college kids.
I am NOT accusing Ian of doing that. I think this was a responsible and informative post.
I AM certainly accusing some unscrupulous national security pundits, and McCain of doing that.
My Ukranian friend would not defend how Saakashvili went about it but definitely thinks US interest is with him, regardless of how he behaves. Not defending, just reporting.
I’m going to do a hit and run here, time for me to go for a swim…
Has anyone thought about how war in the trans caucasus relates to millenial prophesy? How does the bring on armagedden cult view what’s happening?
Also looking at a map it appears that Sevastopol is ver close to Russian territory – there’s the peninsula it sits on which connects to the Ukraine to the North, and there is a Russian peninsula that is due east over a narrow strait. Russia could cut off the peninsula without occupying the bulk of the Ukraine.
the neocons from aei made sure to bring up the ’30s too..repeatedly.and saakasvili quoted mccain in his pr comments on tv…..ew brought up rove’s role in this….someone’s runnin’ the train, that i do think.
bush and condi have no clue what is going on,,,these guys don’t want anyone screwing up what they’ve been building/bought. this is of major proportion….bildenburg kinda thing….
this is being way underestimated. someone jumped the gun, didn’t follow the plan and people are pissed. and flummoxed. that’s why the cspan panel was so vital….they showed their underwear. and then their ass. i love it.
Will make all the other former Republics and other spheres of influence much more pro-West. No other alternative. If Georgia had been member of NATO, Russia would never have invaded.
Is or will Georgia the Ukraine, Poland etc get together to stop Russia or are the waiting for McCain?
And rational people would give a crap about this because….????
it is way worth you watching it……too many things to summarize, that’s why i keep insisting that everyone watch it.
pay attention to what they don’t say.
just play the damn thing while you’re on ere.
frederick kagan is toward the beginning, him you need to hear, then the middle fades a little, then other stuff….but you have to remember they hide stuff in the redundant parts……..so, listen to the damn thing.
As I said, NATO membership is magic bullet which stops Russia before it starts, according to that line of reasoning. Didn’t pursue the issue of what those countries would do if NATO didn’t come to the rescue. Fodder for the next dinner.
Somewhat off topic, but here are internet sources I have collected regarding history of South Ossetian/Gerogia conflict. Unfortunately you have to read all of them to get a complete picuture.
The report from Uppsala is particularly good, it gives a summary of recent attempts by Saakashvili to win S. Ossetian over to Georgia peacefully, but backfired.
Might be good BS detector for stuff you hear on TV. But, this is the kind of (until now) obscure topic best done in a real live library, but I didn’t organize print references when I went.
Resources on South Ossetia
American University, Washington DC
american.edu/ted/ice/ossetia.htm
Columbia Encyclopedia
bartleby.com/65/os/Ossetia.html
University of Uppsala, Sweden (interesting detail on 2004 situation)
pcr.uu.se/database/conflictSummary.php?bcID=177
South Ossetia chapter, Georgia, U.S. Department of the Army Country Studies
countrystudies.us/georgia/19.htm
Eurasianet report on 2004 hostilities
eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav072704.shtml
News report on most recent referendum in South Ossetia
civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=13522
South Ossetia article form Caucasus Foundation (a Turkish non-profit, seems fairly objective)
kafkas.org.tr/english/bgkafkas/bukaf_gosetya.html
South Georgia: Self-Determination in Focus, Institute for Policy Studies
fpif.org/selfdetermination/conflicts/ossetia_body.html
UN news center reports
un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=27639&Cr=Georgia&Cr1=
plays politics like chess, not poker.
Bush to fair to poker players is a fat pigeon. A problem gambler, his problem is that he loses.
Okay. I have insomnia pretty regularly, so I’ll give it a shot in the wee hours.
It sure is great to know that 7 years after 9/11 and billions of dollars into advanced spying and intelligence programs and the US was apparently caught unaware of the Georgian blitz and the following Russian counter blitz.
Very heartening.
-G
Because our current government apparently has some believers in that crap. What are they likely to push for? How much damage can they do?
Then you won’t be terribly outraged by Ukraine losing the Crimea and its East.
Kosovo and Georgia aren’t comparable. Russia started stirring up ethnic tensions in Georgia early on. In Kosovo, it was the Serbs themselves who started ethnic cleansing there.
Would you extend this principle to Chechnya? What is the difference between what the Russian did in Chechnya and what the Georgians were doing in their breakaway regions other than they were less brutal about it?
Would you apply this principle to Quebec or Native Peoples in Canada?
Don’t forget that the Secretary of State (when she’s not off shoe shopping) is a Russian expert… Or so I’ve been told…
I thought Saddam Hussein was the anti-Christ?
Now I’m all confused.
-G
The time for NATO membership is when Russia is weak and oil prices are down . I think with that slogan we could sell hybrids to all the former Soviet Republics.
Apparently authorities in Sochi (where the 2014 Winter Olympics are scheduled) are hinting that a series of bombings there (including one on August 7th) were done with the support of the Georgians.
Terrorist bombings in Black Sea Resort of Sochi
Some more OT venting: the academic and even common sense research standards in international relations are so abysmally low, it astounds me. Don’t think you have even a half decent picture of anything until you have done at least several internet searches and looked at as many print references as you can in a library.
If any student ever turned in such incomplete and sloppy work as I see in the standard report, I would not even give it an F, it would be returned to do over. I listed the *good* ones in last comment.
I am very suspicious of anything I hear in news media, even from well-inbtentioned sources, and I think many on both sides of this are not well intentioned.
We really do not know what happened yet, so I think it unwise to jumpt to conclusions.
got it
Sorry still catching up on the comments but I didn’t want to forget the question.
you know ian, this is just what cheney was looking for, never ending confrontation, he undermined peace for nixon’s detante, he wanted nothing but war in Iraq and then Iran.
this is all part of this maniac;s plan
Well, to be fair, the Secretary of State, whose area of study this is, was only there last month and has been on holiday since.
You’re confused?!?! There’s a faction out there proposing that Obama is the anti-Christ. Maybe there’s a whole bunch of them?
Because of the irrational people in the WH. We need to predict what they will do next by trying to understand what motivates them.
Sure its ugly and dark to look into their heads but we have no choice they have the button and could cause Revelation.
I’m an economist and am appalled at how low the professional dialogue is on the subject. Lots of believe, little evidence. Being self-taught on foreign policy since 9/11, the standards are considerably lower. None of these people know what they’re talking about. It’s propaganda from every side.
Will Russia deal if we make peace with Iran?
I’ve had it for today. Night all.
160 days, assuming the world doesn’t end before then…
Sleep well.
There is another reason why rush to geopolitical and military wargaming is bad, and sophomoric and self-conceited “knowing” forecasts of the next cold war, or even hot war is ill-advised.
If you will recall, we did survive a far more dangerous Cold War. We “won” it in some sense because cooler heads prevailed. Might be a good idea to review the the thinking of those who were proven to have been most prescient and most correct about how to handle high states situations.
Search “George Marshall” and “George Kennan”
These people were not hawks like the current neocon nuts. Their
cautious
fact-based
logical
careful
long-sighted
arguments were superior to most of their contemporaries, and far more impressive than the current depraved warmongers who appear on our corporate media.
I’m not saying these guys were perfect, or did not make mistakes, but I think a good idea to read them now.
Night.
-G
It probably doesn’t have to happen. But we have shoved Russia hard, repeatedly, with NATO expansion, with encircling bases and with the Color revolutions. They are not pleased. You may not like the bear, but you shouldn’t bait it. And you definitely shouldn’t disrespect it. And we have been disrespecting it. We took advantage of Russia’s weakness to push as close to its borders as possible, in essence. And now that it’s regaining some strength and events have weakened us (in some ways temporarily, in some ways perhaps permanently) it is to be expected that Russia would treat us it believes we have treated it.
But the first basis for discussions with Russia is respect for their legitimate interests. If we won’t respect those, why should Russia listen to us. And if we won’t keep our deals, and we won’t, why should Russia make deals, or keep those it makes with us?
The color revolutions (or our participation) were not necessary. NATO expansion should not have gone as far as it did and should never have included any Warsaw Pact countries.
That said, Hugh’s right about Russian weakness. But right now, and probably for 10 years or so, we won’t be in a position to really put the pressure on. That will change and if they haven’t fixed their fundamental problems (and there’s no reason to think they will) they’ll be weak and we’ll be strong again. But that doesn’t help us now, unless we’re real smart and explain that to Russia (sure, you can do this stuff right now and we have to take it. But once we’re mostly off oil/natural gas and don’t need that, well, we have ways of taking most or all of it back…)
wrt your last paragraph: of course that depends on Americans not electing another bonehead in November.
Nite eCAHN
In defining policy, I think 3 questions are important. What do we want? What can we do? And what can we live with?
What bothers me about most policy discussions is that they never move beyond that first question. We can probably live with a fairly undemocratic Russia. The question is how far are strategic interests are tied up with the independence and Western leaning of former Soviet Republics. I’m not sure they are but I’m willing to entertain other views.
i’m tired of posting the same links over and over and over. though no resentment, just hard to do post after post. can’t keep up with it, sorry.
there are things being missed here. i keep saying.
stephen payne, randy scheunemann. evil. beyond belief. they are the operatives in this.. frank carlucci of carlyle is in the middle of it. among others. probably the ‘payman’ along with others. google the damn thing. i’ve spent two months on it, and never in a million years thought the assholes would start a war. georgia had assurances we would back them up…..check the riga conference 2006 and who attended…done deal.i posted that the other day. other stuff you can find if you look for it. these guys are the creepiest i’ve ever encountered, and that’s saying a lot.
i thought of galileo tonight and how he must have felt, how many of us feel this way….
i’m feelin’ like galileo right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTuSDNRJYmE
ignore the video, listen to the song…..then go back to the video if you want.
and a freaky promo video of the galileo satellite–they slide right over who is doing it and who owns it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..re=related
oh well, i think maybe this was all about finding the galileo pr video.
nite and be like galileo, keep those insights coming.
Please excuse if someone’s mentioned it, but an important part of the history lesson here was memorialized in the Charge of the Light Brigade, a reference to the Crimean War in 1854, which was a previous epic battle between Europe and Russia, in which Sevastopol played a role.
There’s some big time historical issues connected with this. Thank you for reminding us.
Bob in HI
and for those who don’t know–galileo was ostracized for his findings/beliefs/discoveries. and more.
he was.
and look what is based on it now.
keep chuggin’ away.
Hugh, please start providinig detail and references for some of your statements. For example:
“Russia started stirring up ethnic tensions in Georgia early on.”
That is a tad vague, and I do not even see how such a vague statements mean anything regarding the specifics of the current crisis. They function like emotional triggers, which is not very helpful.
And no, I am not a Russophile. Putin is a dangerous person, and I have no illusions that Russia has not used pre-existing tensions for ulterior motives.
And Saakashvili is not an ogre. He certainly made a very earnest effort early in his term to solve the Oseetian problem peacefully, and it seems to me by, as much as his nationalism permitted, taking S. Ossetian’s interests in view. It didn’t work. Maybe because of Russian interference, but maybe not.
Ossetia was a unified country from early 1800s. There were similar problems with Georgia in 1918-20 when old Russian empire fell apart. Are you saying the the Russians think 206 years ahead and the whole thing is a fiendish Russian plot?
We want Peace
What can we do make a deal with Russia on Iran? I’m not sure we have any other cards to play
And What can we live with, well Bush, McCain the Neocons thats the problem they can live with anything they are getting the lion’s share of the tax cuts.
But if the thought of another war with Bush as our leader gets traction with the American public well then Bush might deal rather than risk those political consequences.
Ian! What an excelent post you show great qualifications for your position in Parliment.(MP)
Google earth shows a lot about the region as you scan from the Caspian to the western Black Sea. Along the Black Sea the names are mostly Russian. It is spectacular and if Ukraine understand Disaster Capitalism they should not piss Russia off to much. The corporate Oligarchy has it’s eyes on this plum.
The political rundown us the start of a classic book. Thank you. It is a great pleasure to read some good, sensible, and well reseached an essay! You got thr gold for political essays this year.
I can’t believe that they didn’t know what the Georgians were up to. The US actually were involved in war-games with the Georgians in the three weeks leading up to the incursions into South Ossetia. It was called “Immediate Response 2008″ and involved over 1500 troops and a bevy of other personnel. Brig. Gen. William B. Garrett, commander of the U.S. military’s Southern European Task Force was observing.
War games of this nature involve lots of intelligence gathering and evaluation of the “other sides” movements and activities for both “strategic” and evaluative purposes. It’s incredible that any deployments by the Georgians from the presumed goals of the training to other purposes would have gone unnoticed.
Rather I suspect that the “Games” were a “coordination” with US Personnel involved in planning and actions that they believe sheilded the Georgian troop movements to the North.
In addition, there was a quite public report about a similar “War Game” Training activity going on in North Ossetia by the Russians before they crossed the border in response to the Georgian moves. The Russians were ready, the public release of this information was made to suggest to the Russians that the US knew they were there.
This was a game of “Chicken”…a stare-down fight in which all parties were culpable.
We need to keep this in proper perspective: according to a list I saw recently, Spain’s GDP is bigger than Russia’s! Russia’s GDP is only about 9th or so in the world. But it is still BIG, and with Pootie in charge, it is dangerous for all the same old geopolitical reasons that have been true since the Crimean War in 1854.
Bob in HI
Yup. I think what Russia did to Chechnya was wrong and that Chechnya should have been allowed its independence. I am somewhat willing to let Quebec go, with the caveat that if Canada is divisible, so is Quebec and regions in Quebec that vote to stay in Canada will stay in Canada. The entire north will certainly vote to stay in Canada (Indians hate the Quebec government far more than they hate Ottawa, let me tell you) as will most of the West, probably including Montreal. I wonder how much Quebec will like losing its hydro industry that is the mainstay of the economy, it’s largest city and being reduced to a worthless rump state? But if they want that, sure, let’s do it. And I’ll fight a war over the right of smaller regions to stay in Canada, if it comes to that.
And I don’t have any particular issue with Crimea, which was Russian for most of the last 200 years, which has a majority Russian population and which does not want to be part of Ukraine, going independent or back to Russia if that’s what they want.
As for Kosovo, unlike many, I remember history. And I remember that back in the late 70s through mid 80s it was the Serbs who were being ethnically cleansed and raped. Then when the Serbs got the upper hand in the 90s suddenly it was a crisis. Aren’t no good guys in the Balkans.
So, if ethnic cleansing is a reason for breaking up nations (and I’d be willing to say it is) shall we take away the Kurdish regions from Turkey? They destroyed many entire villages there in the late nineties. Definitely ethnic cleansing. Same thing happened to the Kurds from Iraq and Iran. I think it’s time for an independent Kurdistan!
some big time aggravation at the wingtards!!!!!
I think I would be more angry about Bush’s friends rakin in cash over Georgia’s oil pipeline if I thought that we were going to invade.
But with all our troops in Iraq well an airstrike would just piss the Russians off.
I think Bush/McCain is dumb enough to try but I don’t think they will accomplish anything so no payoff to the Bush family and friends.
im heading to slumberland too…..dreming of more PUKE IMPLOSION
dreaming?
Ian and Hugh,
Hugh, Well I certainly do agree with your statement there! Much of the media discussion starts with We Want This, or We Need This, and then makes it a crisis that we need to Win Right Now because we are at a Critical Juncture and This Is A Test, Prestige and Influence are at stake (and…. whyyy is that the case?) . From there on, realism, facts, and logic are abandoned.
Ian, I don’t disagree. I think your post was responsible and very informative. In fact I wish there were more ‘pro-active’ posts like this were done. Now might be a good excuse to do a few proactive posts about thing that may be important next developments, or honest backgrounders that seem to not exist in media.
Should hear what Pat Lang thinks of international relations as a study. hehehehe.
I’m quite sure there’s a lot we don’t know. But I’m sure I know more than McCain or Bush. Might even know more than Obama, frankly.
Because there are people in the White House who are inclined to believe in it?
Bob in HI
Could this eventually be a war that gives Bush a 3rd term?
I agree with Ian on this. There certainly were no good guys in the Balkans. I believe Croatia was involved in Serbian ethnic cleansing at the beginning, but was not as publicized. Because Croatia was perceived by important western interests as more friendly? Or was it simply forgetten in the horrific subsequent events.
And also, very cynical meddling by both Western Europe, US and Russia.
wake the fuck up.
this is about a little tiny democracy that isn’t a democracy, wanting to be a ‘player’ and neocons telling them they are the big cheese, cuz they want oil and gas around russia’s influence to europe. so the middle east can rule. so we can rule.
wake the fuck up.
it’s a chess game, and we’ve only had one champion that’s not russian.
geeez.
time to sign off.
Most of the people in the media seem to be neocons or have swallowed a lot of neocon beliefs. And since neocons have this weird imperial world model where they completely misunderstand British colonial history and the Great Game and what made both possible (it’s not the 18th and 19th centuries. We are not gunpowder empires facing iron age empires. The West does not control as much of the world’s economy. We do not have a huge societal military advantage anymore. We are not facing people who don’t have the ideology to deal with us. Etc…)
These fuckers talk 4th gen, but they don’t get it. Nor do they get conventional warfare. Nor do they even get old fashioned guerialla warfare and how to put down insurgencies (it’s less hard than everyone thinks. Unless you’ve got too many morals, in which case it’s really hard.)
I am going to take a rest from this for awhile, for my nerves.
I hope everyone reads some George Kennan before they get to wargaming.
I also should dig up that famous passage from Adam Smith where he describes the decadent and deprave English upper class who eagerly kibbutz and cheer foreign wars as if they were sporting matches.
I wonder how much of what we see in media is really that kind of depravity.
War is kind of bad. Madison said it was about the worst thing that a democratic republic could experience. And, that since it was one of the most dangerous and evil things to our form of government, that “Where anything can be hoped [to work in avoiding it], everything should be tried”
It is very chilling that our ruling political class seems to have departed from Madison’s thinking.
if anyone’s interested there was also a panel of the european union’s foreign ministers on cspan today. with q and a.
kinda may want to watch it, too.
i’m watching who is saying what. it varies.
and kathi griffith or whatever the hell her name is, is on tv again as a commenter on the war and families of troops, die already. ‘if she can say one paragraph without ‘moreso’ i win a bet.
They telegraphed to the Russians and the Russians pre-positioned in response, it looks like. Although as somewhere said elsewhere, Russian intelligence probably has Georgia wired like a Christmas tree anyway.
You are making me more cheeful by the minute.
oh wes, hearing you have to take a break makes me take back that i need a break……..i’ll be back in operation tomorrow, you too.
it’s not about invasion, it’s about influence.
It seems that all of a sudden Iran talk is nowhere to be found. Could any of this be the August surprise we had been warned about?
Just asking.
And Ian—very astute of you to look beyond the Georgia borders to what may be lurking down the line. But then again we know you are astute.
fixed it for you.
Well with luck they’ll be out of power soon. I don’t understand why anyone listens to them anymore. It’s a sign of deep societal sickness. They got Iraq 180 degrees wrong, but somehow they’re still credible? Amazing. Like the guys who wrote Dow 36,000 – why do they still go on TV as markets or economics experts? I mean, you’ve got to be a special kind of idiot to have missed the .com bubble.
But I find almost the entire foreign policy establishment maddening. They live in their own weird world, with odd assumptions which go completely unchallenged most of the time. And they are very insular. If you aren’t in the club, you don’t have a voice.
I am not talking about 200 years ago. I’m talking about since the 1990s. Some quick stuff about Abkhazia for example from wiki:
Basically, the Abkhaz thought they could get a better autonomy deal from the Russians and so rebelled against the Georgian government which was both weak and corrupt. They were initially defeated but with the support of other national groups in the Caucasus and most importantly from the Russians they ethnically cleansed their region of Georgians. In return they were granted unofficial autonomy and Russian aid and citizenship. The Russian strategic aim was by carving Georgia up it would weaken and allow greater control of an independence minded former Soviet Republic of the USSR.
I leave you to look up the info on Ossetia but it is roughly the same. The Georgians are by no means blameless but they have been actively undermined by the Russians for about 16 years now.
here’s the ‘club’ list, read it and know-
http://64.233.167.104/custom?q…..#038;gl=us
Absolutely agree with your comments on NATO. Then there is the little issue of missile defense systems in Poland and/or Czech Republic. As I have said before, I think our foreign policy towards Russia is very stupid.
I believe that the border states to Russia will have a big reassessment on Russia vis-a-vis the West. When the bear is hibernating is completely different than when be wakes up.
BTW, great post – keep up the great work!!
It should be noted that the tensions between Russia and Georgia were escalating over a period many years. The prediction of a near-term eruption of hostilities between Russan and Ukraine, may be premature. I’m sure something is likely to be worked out between the latter barring some eruption of egregiously bad behavior and faith on the part of Ukraine that equals the depths reached by Georgia most recently.
OK, thanks, I understand where your point now. I certainly agree that the Russian’s have been undermining efforts. The Russians clearly have done things to provide pretexts for action -such as handing out lots of passports to Ossetians, and then saying that they were Russian citizens, while international agencies were warning them that they were pushing the legal limits in the way they did this.
But earlier in the article, you see that the Abkhasians also have their own self-conceived national identity that also goes back for many decades. They had a widespread and successful boycott of the referenda to decide Georgian independence at the dissolution of the Soviet Union. They have never recognized themselves as part of Georgia. Was that the product of Russian plotting?
There are a lot of people in these two ethnic enclaves who believe that they should have their own countries. They have been making trouble about this for a long time, have had nationalistic impluses that would lead to ethnic cleansing of residents who threatened their identity for a long time. From what I have read, the only time they have not made trouble over an extended period was during the Stalin years, when they, and everyone else, around them was so horribly oppressed that they were preoccupied with mere survival.
The Russians have exploiting this, but they did not create the situation. To some extent, both the West and Russia did the same thing in the former Yugoslavia. The Georgians deny that any such thing as an Abkhasian identity even exists, and that the Ossetians would be perfectly happy to be Georgians if it were not for evil Russian plotting. And to some extent the Georgians alienated the residents with high handed actions at the break up of the Soviet Union.
So, thanks for the link. It does not change my opinion that there is little grand strategic or geopolitical substance to this crisis unless US and Russian politicians wish to gin it up into something that looks like one for their own political purposes.
And I distrust the judgement of anyone who, at this point, and with what we currently know, becomes either a Russian, or a Georgian, or Ossetian, or Abhkasian, or Bush administration partisan, or a crisis monger. I am not directing that specifically at you, but just making that point in general.
Am astounded by your extensive grasp and knowledge of history.
Today you claim the USSR was made up of ‘provinces’, Ukraine, Latvia, Georgia… as it appears to suit the master plan today. During the USSR’s days those ‘provinces’ were members of the UN as it suited Russian motives then. Most grade school children know that provinces cannot be members of the UN; but I guess you have yet to reach that intellectual level.
Your second fact regarding Crimea’s 1991 vote for independence carefully omitted the fact it voted for inclusion in an independent Ukraine (54.7%), even the great Russian city of Sevastapol in that same referendum voted to be a part of an independent Ukraine, surprisingly by even a higher percentage of 57.07.
I really did not wish to go further as most reasonable people realize quickly whether what they are reading will add to their knowledge or if they are reading the whining of revisionists.
WORKERS & RUSSIANS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!!
Ian Welsh:
Take a look at the link to the Yalta conference Rove and Saakashvili attended in July. It is probably significant that this Georgia thing was plotted on Ukraine’s territory.