Helloooooo…:)

Morning Jane :)
I’ll let downstairs know you’re up here…
Oh, and Dugggggg…

Samm Simpson, running against Bill Young in FL-10 has made universal health care part of her platform since she ran in 06.

Dugg. We know where Young stands.

The answer’s easy.

thanks Jane, this is a great idea, on it.

Every toe tapping Repuke and Lieberkindaman can be bought…cheap!

(((Jane))) You are a one-woman think tank. Booyah!

I don’t have the time to keep up like I used to. Is this Health Care Now organization the same coalition of people pushing essentially an expansion of our current for-profit system, or do they advocate for genuine reform with a single-payer system?

On a related topic, I heard on NPR yesterday that our Democratic gubernatorial candidate in Indiana, Jill Long Thompson, has a health care plan that sounds promising. She was sadly affiliated with the DLC back when she was in Congress several years ago, but she seems to be coming around a bit in her current bid for governor.

bloggingheads.tv – our Jane and Jim Pinkerton

What Would Nixon Do?
How Georgia and the Olympics reveal American decline (11:32)
The danger of tough talk on foreign policy (04:45)
Winning wars: a winning issue for McCain? (10:03)
Will affirmative action sink Obama? (06:43)
Jim summons Nixon’s ghost to advise the candidates (09:00)
Laughing at John Edwards (07:37)

Hmmmm, Albert Gonzalez a.k.a. “SoupNazi seems like an interesting chap.
‘Revelations from the Justice Department’s “largest hacking bust ever” have a federally imprisoned Lowe’s hacker seeing red. Brian Salcedo, currently serving a “record-breaking” 9-year sentence at a federal prison camp in McKean, Pennsylvania, says he was coerced into action by the recently-busted group’s ringleader, 27-year-old Albert Gonzalez a.k.a. “SoupNazi”.’
http://www.dailytech.com/Lowes…..e12650.htm

How good are her chances? I used to be from IN, but the Gary area in Lake County where anyone who wants to be successful in politics is a Dem. But as far as I know, most of the rest of the state are Rethug.

I don’t think she has much chance. The current governor, Mitch Daniels, has a huge war chest and polls have him (last I looked) comfortably in the lead.

Well here in Northern Indiana, even in very Republican counties Mitch is NOT popular at all. But I hear he’s somehow popular downstate, and particularly Indianapolis, which baffles me because the city has tended to be more Democratic and Daniels is a classic right-wing, free market extremist. But he sells off our state’s infrastructure to foreign corporations and uses the money to make it look like our budget is balanced so I guess people are buying into the smoke and mirrors act.

I will be working hard for Jill though.

Me too, Sufilizard. I just haven’t seen anything that convinces me he’s in much danger.

OT, again… ;)
Hmmmm, couldn’t this power generated be used to power the street lights and traffic signals etc…

WORCESTER, Mass.– August 11, 2008 – ‘Anyone who has walked barefoot across a parking lot on a hot summer day knows that blacktop is exceptionally good at soaking up the sun’s warmth. Now, a research team at Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) has found a way to use that heat-soaking property for an alternative energy source. Through asphalt, the researchers are developing a solar collector that could turn roads and parking lots into ubiquitous—and inexpensive–sources of electricity and hot water.’
http://www.wpi.edu/News/Releas…..tnews.html

I’d like to see Cindy Sheehan defeat Pelosi, or pull sufficiently many votes that Pelosi loses to someone else.

Here’s the relevant portion of their “about us” page:

We’re offering a bold new solution that gives you real choice and a guarantee of quality coverage you can afford: keep your current private insurance plan, pick a new private insurance plan, or join a public health insurance plan.

We’re also calling for regulation on health insurance companies. We need to set and enforce rules that quash health insurance companies’ greed once and for all. There is a huge divide between our plan and the insurance companies’ plan for healthcare reform. We want to make sure you have the quality coverage you need at the price you can afford. They want to leave you alone to fend for yourself in the unregulated, bureaucratic health insurance market.

What I don’t understand is why the unions aren’t backing single-payer. It would be really simple: “Medicare for everybody.”

Actions of individuals key to saving biodiversity-and ourselves, Stanford biologists say

‘Even if you don’t like the outdoors, you’re probably pretty fond of air, clean water and food.

That makes you a fan of biodiversity, because those essentials for life-human and otherwise-are maintained as a direct result of the Earth’s biodiversity, the abundance and variety of species and populations on the planet. Preserving a substantial amount of biodiversity is critical to a healthy future for us, but how best to do that has been a subject of ongoing debate.’

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_…..080708.php

OT: I’m seeing a huge number of articles in the alternate press about a U.S. Naval armada steaming toward the Persian Gulf, but nothing from the traditional media. Here’s what I’ve found:
– http://informationdisseminatio…..awing.html (August 8)
– http://europebusines.blogspot……-iran.html (August 7)
– http://www.prisonplanet.com/la…..-gulf.html
– http://www.metimes.com/Securit….._air/ca8a/ (Monday)
– http://www.metimes.com/Interna…..gulf/7724/ (today)
– http://www.asianews.it/index.p…..038;size=A (today)
– http://www.presstv.ir/detail.a…..=351020101 (today)

http://www.democraticundergrou…..215;168620

Howie’s upstairs with good news

Jane – nyceve at dailykos has been one of my go to bloggers for health care policy analysis. she has been extremely critical of Health Care for America Now.

from her diary on july 10, Has MoveOn lost its mind?:

Why has this flashy new healthcare advocacy group, which is already sucking up all the air in the room, totally removed from their proposal the only option which will remedy the healthcare catastrophe in the United States? That option (which they pretend doesn’t even exist) has been, and always will be, single-payer. Only single-payer will once and for all, drive a stake through the heart of the insurance industry.

HCAN is made up of real smart people and organizations. They should know you don’t bargain against yourself. You don’t negotiate against yourself. You don’t disarm unilaterally. And you certainly don’t take any options off the table. But this is what they’re doing.

And it pains me to have to say any of this, but I must.

And let me go one more step, imagine if all this brain-power, money, and political muscle, had simply added to its advertising campaign the straightforward notion that single-payer healthcare works beautifully in the rest of the world, so maybe, just maybe, it could also solve our own American healthcare catastrophe.

and today’s diary, Here’s your chance to tell MoveOn either lead or get out of the way

This morning a variety of single-payer healthcare advocacy organizations including
Progressive Democrats of America, Healthcare Now, PNHP and All Unions Committee For Single Payer Health Care are petitioning MoveOn.

You may remember that our friends at MoveOn lent their esteemed reputation to our friends at Health Care for America Now.

Healthcare for America Now “is a national grassroots campaign organizing millions of Americans to win a guarantee of quality, affordable health care for all.” HCAN by its own words, would maintain the private health insurance industry.

“We’re offering a bold new solution that gives you real choice and a guarantee of quality coverage you can afford: keep your current private insurance plan, pick a new private insurance plan, or join a public health insurance plan.

We’re also calling for regulation on health insurance companies. We need to set and enforce rules that quash health insurance companies’ greed once and for all.”

Their solution is neither bold nor new.

Before I go any further, allow me to make it clear again, both MoveOn and Healthcare for America Now are our friends, but occasionally even friends need a swift kick in the butt.

PNHP (Physicians for a National Health Program) has be a (if not the) leader with analysis and advocacy in the fight for single payer health care here for years. i can’t dismiss them and their position without good cause.

can you say more why you support HCAN and not PNHP’s position on this? thanks.

Hmmmm. I get an error on that link:

The information you requested cannot be displayed one or more input parameters has invalid syntax.

Demo Underground piece on protest at Pelosi fundraiser

Yesterday, Michael Moore was on Oprah debating health care..other guests-head of group that lobbie(y)s for insurance comapanies in us……princeton professor about health care economics.

Oprah’s Question was –paraphrased, pretty closely–does the child of a gas station attendant deserve to have the same health care as an executive?
(first time I had watched her show since i re-connected cable, was a good one.)

should have been and princeton professor—

same health care as an executive?
executive’s child?

Morning Jane,

My self I’ll take health care now and leave the oil for my children’s ,children’s ,children’s children.

It’s coming

Funny
http://www.truthdig.com/cartoo…..an_mascot/

Health Care for America Now has put up a citizen whip count tool (just like the one we used in the FISA battle) where you can call your representative, and ask them — are you going to be with us on health care reform, or working to preserve our broken system?

Hope you have better luck with health care than you did with FISA

Thank you, Selise! Your comment was educational to me, as I am also upset that the idea of a single payer system is being so blatantly dismissed as not doable. To my mind, it’s the only thing that is truly viable. Now that you mention it, I’d like the answer to your questions, too!

here’s the link to the oprah show—great points brought up and debated and many paper points knocked down.

http://www.oprah.com/dated/opr…..w_20070927

another guest was linda peno (sp?) the insurance doctor from the film sicko who testified before congress about how insurance companies deny life-saving and other surgeries.

A fascist state is one where the state and the corporate structure on indistinguishable.
We won’t have singer payer health care until we have hundreds of progressives elected to very local offices. We have years to go until we are taken care of in a responsible manner. Many will die before then.

Re drilling, perhaps if we suggested to Pelosi that drilling was just another word for impeachment, she would reflexively take it off the table.

thanks for the link.

it’s not just about electing people – it’s about make the case to the american people. we need to do that too because when we do, electing progressives will be a little more doable.

hafta try something to see what works…they act like everything is written in stone, so noone makes a move.

Does either choice come with sprinkles?
Because America needs a tie-breaker for such a difficult decision?
Full Disclosure: I am now almost $3000 for dental work this year – and I have ‘good’ insurance – just a bad year.
Since I chose to buy a Honday Civic

lol. to me this is just one more time the dem leadership speaks out strongly against a bush policy or action. and then quietly caves. it’s how they portray themselves as opponents while being facilitators.

the negotiations have not yet begun. why do we have to give away what we want before we even start? if we’re going to concede something so critical, at least let’s make sure we get something in return.

Opponents of single payer universal healthcare cite various anectodal horror stories and long waits, but what they never mention is that those covered by these “shoddy” healthcare plans in Europe and Canada wouldn’t trade them for ours for anything.

This site shows the carriers underway (away from homeport), the list is inclusive of those carriers mentioned at afterdowningstreet: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/35448

see: http://www.navy.mil/navydata/n…..asp?id=146

I may have misunderstood the jargon (ex-USAFarce), but ships underway and on station are/aren’t the same?

I have seen nothing else, what does Al the spook have?

Because tearing down the efforts of HCAN as part of a lobbying effort for Single Payer is a great way to get the same kind of health care reform they got in California.

In other words, none.

Being able to multitask is something reasonable people are going to have to be able to do. Tearing apart MoveOn and what’s possible in the near term is a great way to keep a lot of people from getting the help they need right now. It’s possible to push for single payer at the same time, knowing that it’s going to be a huge battle that’s going to be fought incrementally.

It’s not an either/or proposition unless you make it one.

I may have misunderstood the jargon (ex-USAFarce), but ships underway and on station are/aren’t the same?

Underway means in transit to their target area. On station means they are cruising the target area.

So that’s what Pelosi has been doing. She has been multi-tasking.

It’s not an either/or proposition unless you make it one.

i don’t think that’s the point nyceve has been making – it’s why concede from the start? why not start from the position of single payer and then, if necessary, negotiate to something else (maybe like edward’s plan that seemed to provide for a path to single payer). but if we start by giving up on single payer where are we going to compromise too?

also, if it’s not an either/or proposition then why support HCAN but not PDA, PNHP et al.?

this seriously reminds me of MOVEON’s support for the democratic house leadership bill that was supposed to be a first step towards ending the war. the progressives didn’t like it and MOVEON asked up to lobby against the progressives in congress in support of the leadership.

is HCAN demanding anything that the Obama hasn’t already said he supports? in other words, is HCAN supporting a Democratic policy position or is HCAN pushing the Obama and the congressional dem leadership towards what we want them to do?

i’m asking in all seriousness, because i haven’t seen these issues addressed. hopefully there will be more discussion with time.

thanks for the response jane. much appreciated.

serious question:
Can someone give me a reason, other than “the republicans are worse” for voting for the democrats this year?

Honestly. Serious question.
Cus I’m seeing Hope-a-dope leaning toward Evan Bayh, and saying Georgia should be allowed into NATO. Now Nancy’s backing down on offshore drilling (big surprise there: let’s do it in San Francisco Bay, I say).

And that’s on top of all the other kicks in the teeth, which would be too long to list.
Oh hell, why not:
impeachment’s off the table; michael mukasey; ignored unenforced subpoeanas; silent GOP filibusters; “you’re advocates we’re leaders”; blank check after blank check; FISA.

Seriosuly, what’s the fucking point of voting, what’s the fucking point of anything?

Obviously you have not been listening to the happy progressive message.

i’m not going to tell you that voting is the end all and be all of political engagement. after all, i’m not planning to vote for obama (will vote for someone else as a way to register my protest). down ticket, though, there may be important races, depending on where you live.

that doesn’t mean i think the Democratic party is on our side – i don’t.

but i will beg you to continue to take action in some way, it doesn’t have to be electoral politics – because if we give up, we lose.

It’s unrealistic to think that because Obama support something, and House leadership supports something, that it’s going to get passed. Remember a small group called the Blue Dogs? I suppose you could say that since there are only 50 or so of them why worry, but that really wouldn’t be a realistic analysis of the situation. They do hold quite a bit of power given the way Congress operates.

HCAN is trying to put pressure on all members of Congress to commit now, before the election, to health care reform — period. I don’t see how trying to kneecap MoveOn in that effort is in any way productive. It’s not like HCAN is sitting there saying “no, no! Single payer? Never!”

Someone wants to lobby members of congress for Single Payer? Go for it. Nobody’s stopping them. Good on ya.

But firing arrows into MoveOn’s back? Really, they’re not the enemy. And I question the pragmatism of anyone who is trying to use this opportunity to organize against them.

My only hope is to vote in new and better democrats – like Donna Edwards and others.

I am happy that HCAN is out there with advertising and keeping Health Care change as a topic of discussion. It goes along with the current tanking economic situation – I know I and many others will become bankrupt because of medical expenses.

I wish Michael Moore would put SICKO on network TV right before the election this year. Hopefully that would wake some people up before they vote.

Neither. We advocate for a choice of public or private plans, with a guarantee of quality, level of care, and affordability.

To echo Jane’s point, HCAN is not “against” single payer. Properly designed single payer plans do fit within our principles. But so do other options.

As Jane said, advocate for whatever policy you think is best, but let’s not tear each other down when we have a common enemy: The insurance industry and right-wing health care reform plans.

But firing arrows into MoveOn’s back? Really, they’re not the enemy. And I question the pragmatism of anyone who is trying to use this opportunity to organize against them.

I suppose we shouldn’t be critical of the national leadership of NARAL either. They may not represent all our views but no reason to fire arrows at them. They’re not the enemy.

It’s unrealistic to think that because Obama support something, and House leadership supports something, that it’s going to get passed.

i don’t think that.

Remember a small group called the Blue Dogs? I suppose you could say that since there are only 50 or so of them why worry,…

i do remember and i don’t say that. but i do think the dem leadership is more of a problem than the blue dogs (but probably not by much).

the dem leadership have earned a bit of a reputation for saying they are for something and then blaming the blue dogs for their capitulation. so i’d like to see the pressure on obama and the dem congressional leadership (as well as the blue dogs) and this campaign appears not to do that – instead it gives the leadership a pass by not advocating for single payer. the opposite of multi-tasking in my book.

furthermore, nyceve explicitly writes that moveon is not the enemy. she writes nice things about the people involved in HCAN – but that doesn’t stop her (and others like PDA, PNHP, etc) from disagreeing strongly. i don’t see how she or anyone else is “firing arrows into moveon’s back” or in anyway trying to harm them by dissenting. moveon is a very top-down organization and a petition is a nice way to provide some feedback and/or dissent – i don’t see how it’s “tearing apart moveon.”

or is there more going on i’m not aware of and that you can share?

…. i won’t be around for a while, but will check back later today in case you see this and leave another reply. thank you again for the discussion. it helps in trying to see what’s going on with such a big issue when there are strong and competing ideas about what is best to do.

As Jane said, advocate for whatever policy you think is best, but let’s not tear each other down when we have a common enemy: The insurance industry and right-wing health care reform plans.

I wonder how many hundreds of thousands of Americans have died because of lack of or inadequate healthcare? How many millions, perhaps tens of millions have suffered ill health and stunted lives for the same reason? And all because we do no more than dink around with reforms around the edges of a healthcare system that serves insurance companies, pharmaceuticals, and HMOs ahead of patients. How many more will die or suffer while these incremental “reforms” paper over what is needed?

hi jason. nice to “meet” you. i hope there will be more discussions on this topic here and that you will participate in them.

HCAN’s plan is to provide a guarantee of an adequate level of care, no matter what (no pre-existing conditions), at an affordable price. Any plan that fits those principles (along with the others we believe in), whether it be single payer or regulation, works for us. And either way, it solves the horrors of the insurance industry you deftly point out.

You as well. I’ll be here! ;)

Technically, a ship is underway as soon as the last mooring line has been removed from the dockside bollard or the anchor breaks the surface of the water and is underway until she either anchors or ties up again. On station refers to either being at (a) a specific area the ship has been directed to or (b) a specified bearing and distance from another ship.

before i go, i thought i should post the petition (from pda’s website) so folks could judge for themselves if this is tearing moveon down or providing a helpful dissent to the moveon leadership:

UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE PETITION TO MOVEON.ORG

MoveOn.org should query its members on the issue of health care for all.

WE, THE UNDERSIGNED, respectfully petition the leaders of MoveOn.Org to abide by its core democratic principles and ask the opinion of its members whether they support reform of the private health insurance system or replacement of private health insurance by universal single payer health care, before MoveOn continues to organizationally and financially support a new coalition which supports the former and excludes the latter.

WHEREAS, MoveOn has had extraordinary success because it has presented itself as democratic organization in which, as its web site proclaims, every member has a voice in choosing the direction.

WHEREAS, MoveOn’s leadership has not followed its democratic principals regarding the choice of MoveOn’s direction on one of the most important issues confronting the country, universal health care.

WHEREAS, Tens of thousands of activists, including many MoveOn members, have been organizing at the grassroots in support of replacing Americas fragmented and wasteful system of private health insurance with a universal single payer Medicare-For-All system that would cover everyone from cradle to grave, in which health care decisions would be made between patients and doctors and not by insurance company bureaucrats, and in which everyone would have the right to choose her or his own doctor. Medicare-For- All is embodied in H.R. 676 introduced by Rep. John Conyers and co-sponsored by 91 members of Congress.

WHEREAS, With the longstanding coalition called Healthcare NOW playing a key role, HR 676 has been endorsed by 452 union organizations, including 111 Central Labor Councils, 36 State AFL-CIO federations, and 17 national or international unions including the United Auto Workers, The National Education Association, The American Federation of Teachers, the United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers, The International Longshore and Warehouse Union, and The California Nurses Association/National Nurses Organizing Committee; such national organizations as the NAACP, Progressive Democrats of America, Physicians for a National Health Program, the United Church of Christ, and the United Methodist Board of Church and Society; and 32 City Councils including Baltimore, Louisville, Indianapolis, Detroit and Boston.

WHEREAS, Without asking the opinion of its members, the leaders of MoveOn have chosen to join the steering committee and pledge $500,000 of its members money to a competing health care coalition with the confusingly similar name Health Care For America Now, whose Statement of Principles seeks to preserve and reform the private health insurance system (adding an expensive public alternative that businesses and individuals can pay for with their own money) and which systematically excludes supporters of single payer health care, including many of MoveOn’s own members, from its events.

WHEREAS, We, the undersigned, believe that this decision by MoveOn’s leadership to take a major leadership and fundraising role in this competing coalition to reform private health insurance and exclude single payer supporters, many of whom are MoveOn members, violates MoveOn’s core principle that MoveOn’s members choose its direction.

NOW THEREFORE, We, the undersigned, respectfully call on MoveOn to follow its core democratic principles and sponsor an online debate between supporters of universal single payer health care and supporters of reforming private health insurance with a voluntary public alternative, and then let MoveOn’s members vote on which approach to health care reform they believe MoveOn should support.

Well, if you want to go all technical, OK. Thanks *g*

You know that sounds nice but it is a prescription for cherrypicking and sucking funds out of the default public side of things.

I don’t imagine you’ve ever had a Chief Boatswain’s Mate chew yer ass raw for getting the details wrong. Navy’s real big on that shit. “It’s a bulkhead not a wall, pogey bait!!”

Launching a petition, and telling MoveOn to “lead or get out of the way” is the very definition of organizing against them. I’m afraid we’re going to have to agree to disagree about this one.

No, I can’t say I have had that pleasure. LOL

but don’t forget that the majority of the american sheeple also believe that offshore drilling will lower the price of gas at the pump in as short a time as 6 months, and will be on line in just a few months-I first heard this fairy story/timeline from st john, who said that the oil executives had assured him that offshore drilling could go online in months-well 10 years is only 120 months isn’t it. Then I heard the same line from the “gang of 10″ senators who repeated the same story line. So the majority of americans have bought into this meme-could be online within months. Could and months are of course the very very vague words from big oil. Very flexable words those. Could, does not mean will, altho the sheeple nation heard it that way, just as they were ment to. Then we have months, which once more, started with McCain. First it was about 10 years, then 3-4 years, then 2-3 years, then months-assurance given to McCain by oil executives as to the “months” timeframe. Gullible people, the american sheeple. BTW, if you believe that, I have some prime ocean front property in So Dakota I would like to sell you. I just really never thought that the hardheaded american politician would buy into that particular fairy tale. But to have so many of them buying into it. Barnum was right. There is a sucker born every minute. No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american voter. Bunch of gullible sheeple. OH OH, I have this great new fuel source, just fill your tank with water, then add my pill. Cost, only $20 per pill. Sheeple, the reason why the Nigerian money scam continues to run on the internet. BTW, I’ll send you $20M, all you have to do is give me your checking account number. Idiots. They likely also believe in St Nick and the tooth fairy.

Oh I’ll be taking action alright: that’s what actblue and accountability now are for.

and yes, i’ll be voting on down ticket races. I just meant nationally.
but I digress: time for some lunch.

I don’t know why you think this is the case. If insurance companies have to take everyone (guaranteed care) and have to provide care at a certain price, I don’t know how this will “suck funds” from the public side.

serious question:
Can someone give me a reason, other than “the republicans are worse” for voting for the democrats this year?

I’ll give it a go.

Right now the Senate is about 50-50, so it’s hard to get anything especially good through there. If you want good things put mo’ better Democrats in the Senate and Presidency.

Honestly. Serious question.

Yes, I agree. It’s THE serious question.

Cus I’m seeing Hope-a-dope leaning toward Evan Bayh, and saying Georgia should be allowed into NATO. Now Nancy’s backing down on offshore drilling (big surprise there: let’s do it in San Francisco Bay, I say).

I don’t know about the Veep choice.

I have grave doubts about the entire plan to suck all of Europe into NATO
and I felt that way in the ’90s too.

Nancy forsees a compromise bill with some offshore drilling and some good things and she wants the good things. Same reason Obama said he might consider it.

Do YOU want the good things?

And that’s on top of all the other kicks in the teeth, which would be too long to list.
Oh hell, why not:
impeachment’s off the table; michael mukasey; ignored unenforced subpoeanas; silent GOP filibusters; “you’re advocates we’re leaders”; blank check after blank check; FISA.

I have no idea why Pelosi took “impeachment off the table” except that she knew there was no way in Hell it would end in a Senatorial conviction and would therefore be a big f’in waste of time which could be better spent on getting some good things through the House.

Mukasey is Schumer’s problem. He shoulda gone with Ted Olsen.

The subpoenas is a mystery to me. I mean, what’s the history of that? Has there been trouble getting it enforced in the past?

GOP filibusters is another way of admitting we don’t have the votes to beat ‘em over the head with a blunt instrument. That’s something you have to accept…for now.

Pelosi’s “you’re advocates, we’re leaders” was clearly not well put. It thuds off your ear like Cheney’s “So.” I suspect she would apologize for that and “extend and revise her remarks” if given a chance.

The blank checks for Iraq are pretty much inevitable. First on politics we Dems would be slaughtered if we even discussed removing support from soldiers in the field. Second, it’s important to remember the President has certain foreign policy prerogatives and Congress takes the hind. That we just don’t like THIS president doesn’t change the system. You have to change the president to get a better outcome.

FISA was simply going to be one of the last Repub+DLC-Dem bills and there was really no choice. Get real. We’re simply not going to put our telecoms out of business when they were responding after 9/11. That there was the potential disclosure of Bush criminality was a shame, but still secondary.

I’ll still be very interested to see how the court handles THAT FISA provision. Has anyone heard where that’s gone? I know some senators took it to them immediately.

Seriosuly, what’s the fucking point of voting, what’s the fucking point of anything?

I don’t know about you, but I’ve always been in it for the sheer thrill of seeing Bush leave office labeled as “The Worst President America has ever had!”