Comments on: The Injustice of Three Strikes Laws, Mandatory Sentencing and Plea Bargaining http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/ Firedoglake weblog Tue, 24 Nov 2009 17:01:44 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: T-Bear http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578630 T-Bear Wed, 13 Aug 2008 07:50:50 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578630 <p>No systemic justice will ever occur as long as there is no basic right to effective representation in court for all accused. Without effective representation, justice becomes a fortuitous accident with life altering consequences for failure of the fortune (double-entendre intended) needed for a favorable outcome. It is another form of a separate justice for the rich, powerful, and connected. Without a level playing field, that access to effective representation provides, justice is no more than shooting fish in a barrel, so alien is the court system to everyday experience, let alone the poverty, failure of eduction, and under-class social status of most of the victims of the American System of Injustice. All the well meaning intentions of the few conscionable actors will not make it otherwise, their “good” works no more than putting a burnished gleam to otherwise shit-for-system miscalled justice.</p> No systemic justice will ever occur as long as there is no basic right to effective representation in court for all accused. Without effective representation, justice becomes a fortuitous accident with life altering consequences for failure of the fortune (double-entendre intended) needed for a favorable outcome. It is another form of a separate justice for the rich, powerful, and connected. Without a level playing field, that access to effective representation provides, justice is no more than shooting fish in a barrel, so alien is the court system to everyday experience, let alone the poverty, failure of eduction, and under-class social status of most of the victims of the American System of Injustice. All the well meaning intentions of the few conscionable actors will not make it otherwise, their “good” works no more than putting a burnished gleam to otherwise shit-for-system miscalled justice.

]]> By: john in sacramento http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578032 john in sacramento Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:13:27 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578032 <p>This seems to be on topic</p> <p><a href="http://www.aclusac.org/node/105" rel="nofollow">False confessions: Even judges are biased by camera perspective</a></p> <blockquote><p>When a suspect confesses to a crime, it’s often seen as a clear victory for the prosecution. But what if the confession was coerced? Under the emotional strain of an interrogation, it happens more often than you’d think. In response to the problem of coercion, many police departments now videotape interrogations. This should eliminate all potential for abuse, right? Wrong. Teams led by Daniel Lassiter have found that when the camera is focused on the suspect instead of both the suspect and the interrogator, people are more likely to view the confession as voluntary rather than coerced (the video the viewers saw was based on the transcript of an actual false confession). Even when a judge warns jurors of the potential for bias due to camera perspective, the bias still occurs.</p></blockquote> This seems to be on topic

False confessions: Even judges are biased by camera perspective

When a suspect confesses to a crime, it’s often seen as a clear victory for the prosecution. But what if the confession was coerced? Under the emotional strain of an interrogation, it happens more often than you’d think. In response to the problem of coercion, many police departments now videotape interrogations. This should eliminate all potential for abuse, right? Wrong. Teams led by Daniel Lassiter have found that when the camera is focused on the suspect instead of both the suspect and the interrogator, people are more likely to view the confession as voluntary rather than coerced (the video the viewers saw was based on the transcript of an actual false confession). Even when a judge warns jurors of the potential for bias due to camera perspective, the bias still occurs.

]]> By: egregious http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578024 egregious Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:04:17 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578024 <p><a href="http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-environment-is-not-a-truck-michele-bachmann-right-wing-loon-of-the-week/" rel="nofollow">Eli’s up</a></p> Eli’s up

]]> By: bobschacht http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578022 bobschacht Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:53:58 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578022 <p>It was an eye-opener for me when I first learned about the two theories of judicial action. One theory is summarized by Ian as</p> <blockquote><p> Cookie-cutter one size fits all justice is often touted as fair, because everyone is treated the same way.</p></blockquote> <p>But as Ian observed, cookie-cutter justice can produce results that seem, well, unfair. There is no flexibility for considering extenuating circumstances, or for first-time offenders. So the other main theory </p> <blockquote><p>requires taking individual circumstances into consideration.</p></blockquote> <p>Here we have the old “He stole the loaf of bread because his children were starving” scenario.</p> <p>I suppose this has a parallel in <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Situation-Ethics-Morality-Joseph-Fletcher/dp/B000J0UIWG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218584939&sr=1-2" rel="nofollow">Situation Ethics</a>: Just as there are those who argue that judges or juries should have room for discretion, so there are moralists who argue that the ethical thing to do sometimes depends on the circumstances.</p> <p>On top of that, there’s an old debate between Justice and Mercy, which raises a different set of issues.</p> <p>Both systems can be abused, and that is why the debate continues. Thanks, Ian, for reminding us about these issues.</p> <p>Bob in HI</p> It was an eye-opener for me when I first learned about the two theories of judicial action. One theory is summarized by Ian as

Cookie-cutter one size fits all justice is often touted as fair, because everyone is treated the same way.

But as Ian observed, cookie-cutter justice can produce results that seem, well, unfair. There is no flexibility for considering extenuating circumstances, or for first-time offenders. So the other main theory

requires taking individual circumstances into consideration.

Here we have the old “He stole the loaf of bread because his children were starving” scenario.

I suppose this has a parallel in Situation Ethics: Just as there are those who argue that judges or juries should have room for discretion, so there are moralists who argue that the ethical thing to do sometimes depends on the circumstances.

On top of that, there’s an old debate between Justice and Mercy, which raises a different set of issues.

Both systems can be abused, and that is why the debate continues. Thanks, Ian, for reminding us about these issues.

Bob in HI

]]> By: Elliott http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578021 Elliott Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:52:34 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578021 <p>and it gets them off the voting rolls</p> and it gets them off the voting rolls

]]> By: Teddy Partridge http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578020 Teddy Partridge Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:50:50 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578020 <p>Unfortunately we have a huge GOP industry built upon incarceration. As long as incarceration pays big money to GOP donors, we will incarcerate citizens we shouldn’t.</p> Unfortunately we have a huge GOP industry built upon incarceration. As long as incarceration pays big money to GOP donors, we will incarcerate citizens we shouldn’t.

]]> By: nonplussed http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578019 nonplussed Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:38:43 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578019 <p>Do you think he went to the Harley Factory, him being such a big biker and all? Maybe he explained away the pain of the recent lay-offs there.</p> Do you think he went to the Harley Factory, him being such a big biker and all? Maybe he explained away the pain of the recent lay-offs there.

]]> By: Twain http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578018 Twain Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:38:26 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578018 <p>I am very opposed to the 3 strikes law here in California. It is sometimes carried to an idiotic end. I don’t have statistics on how often it is used, however. One of the problems that people don’t seem to realize is that there are times when a convicted person should get more time in prison than is called for under the mandatory sentence law. But some don’t think past the obvious.</p> I am very opposed to the 3 strikes law here in California. It is sometimes carried to an idiotic end. I don’t have statistics on how often it is used, however. One of the problems that people don’t seem to realize is that there are times when a convicted person should get more time in prison than is called for under the mandatory sentence law. But some don’t think past the obvious.

]]> By: ekunin http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578017 ekunin Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:37:18 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578017 <p>The US is self righteous, demanding everyone hue the same line. There is no reason why recreational drugs should be criminalized unless perhaps a minor is involved or someone drives under the influence. There is no reason why individuals can’t foul themselves up as long as they don’t foul up anyone else. Lots of our prisoners are convicted of victimless crimes unless you consider the criminal the victim. Plea bargains happen because if the system were required to try everyone, it would collapse under its own weight. The thing that makes plea bargains work is that if you go to trial and get convicted, you get more time than you could have bargained for. One would think insisting on one’s right to a trial should not involve a penalty but it does. That should be unconstitutional, but it’s not.</p> The US is self righteous, demanding everyone hue the same line. There is no reason why recreational drugs should be criminalized unless perhaps a minor is involved or someone drives under the influence. There is no reason why individuals can’t foul themselves up as long as they don’t foul up anyone else. Lots of our prisoners are convicted of victimless crimes unless you consider the criminal the victim. Plea bargains happen because if the system were required to try everyone, it would collapse under its own weight. The thing that makes plea bargains work is that if you go to trial and get convicted, you get more time than you could have bargained for. One would think insisting on one’s right to a trial should not involve a penalty but it does. That should be unconstitutional, but it’s not.

]]> By: Hugh http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578016 Hugh Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:36:13 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/12/the-injustice-of-three-strikes-laws-mandatory-sentencing-and-plea-bargaining/#comment-1578016 <blockquote><p>Yeah. Justice, law, y’know.</p></blockquote> <p>It is interesting because the casual dismissal of the 8th Amendment prohibition against “cruel and unusual punishments”. I see this as a set up for this year’s death penalty decision Baze v. Rees upholding the use of death by lethal cocktail and also Yoo’s sophistic treatment of the 8th Amendment in his odious 80 page torture memo.</p>

Yeah. Justice, law, y’know.

It is interesting because the casual dismissal of the 8th Amendment prohibition against “cruel and unusual punishments”. I see this as a set up for this year’s death penalty decision Baze v. Rees upholding the use of death by lethal cocktail and also Yoo’s sophistic treatment of the 8th Amendment in his odious 80 page torture memo.

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