fuck obama!

huh?

And the point here is…?

Because, as the last 7 years have taught us, it’s really much better to live in reality than to try and make your own reality.

I kinda thing this is our reality tho:
Sinkin’ Soon

You might at least give him a chance ….perhaps he will be an excellent president. The road for him will not be easy since he will begin with all the stuff that Bush/Cheney have screwed up. He has the right to try.

Thanks, Ian. The subject is difficult but I do think it is getting easier. I am proud of my party and my country for nominating an AA. Maybe it means we have matured somewhat. I have high hopes.

i did.

God, this reminds me of a conversation I had with my 72 year old mother. She remarked to me that Obama left her with the impression that his style was preachy. I outright told her that when she said that what I heard her saying was uppity negro. Her response, So? What we are dealing with here is long established thinking that goes beneath rational thought.

Ian,

wow. wow. and more wow – what a beautiful, thoughtful post.

although still confident as to his chances, Obama does indeed have his work cut out for him, doubly difficult with the Caesar’s Wife path he has taken

given the opportunity to advise him as to approach, what would you tell him Ian ?

It’s become crystal clear that despite Obama’s position on FISA and his post primary rhetoric about moving more troops into Afghanistan and keeping the country in a state of war, I will vote for him in the general. A McCain presidency is just too awful to contemplate. And unlike some, I think McCain could win this election. I wonder about the impact of the recent McCain ad campaign which although not blatantly racist is appealing to the basest elements of racism and fear in this country.

Thanks for writing this important post, Ian.

I am so sorry you think that. Of course, no one is perfect. But since he began to flourish in the race, I have thought that even his candidacy has been transformative. Something about a Black man getting this far says something good about our country; particularly, it seems, about the youth. Yes, I was disappointed in FISA. But right now, he is the image of hope and of the future. Not only are we dead meat with the other guy. Obama is a smart, educated man. I am hoping and praying for all the best for him with truth and wisdom.

forget it. i’m not going to support a democrat that will roll into office with the precedents set by the bush administration.

I don’t care who the unitary executive is. it is undemocratic.

-racism charge which worked against Clinton (I make no claims about whether fairly or not, that partisan battle should be past) has not worked against McCain.

A lot of the trouble in the continuing campaign narrative relates to source attribution. Statements made by candidates, official surrogates, and unofficial self-appointed surrogates get lumped together.

In the primaries, supporters of Clinton or Obama tended to attribute ALL negative statements made about their candidate, regardless of the source, as having come from the other candidate’s campaign.

Sometimes people apply this concept in reverse.

Obama said, “They will tell you I don’t look like the other presidents-” He was clearly referring to the to the opposition in a larger collective sense. McCain immediately seized that and misrepresented it as a personal attack, saying, “I am not a racist.” Well, that is probably a matter for dispute, however it had no actual relevance to the original statement.

our own perris commented on a recent sad but eye opening experience at a gathering of friends – where it became obvious to him that all their objections really came down to campaigning while black

seen other dfh’s having similar encounters.

most of these objectors don’t even realize it’s their lizard brain doing the talking as far too many of us think because we don’t use a certain perjorative and dont attend cross burnings, we’re not racist

at the same time, throughout the primaries I’ve listened to fellow americans express pride at finally being able to vote for an AA, and I’m not talking about us hippies

his candidacy and his (gulp) election is a golden opportunity to grow a little and start talking about this stain

It’s definitely the ugly side of our country here. Many of the older folks still are stuck with the prejudices they grew up with. Though the younger, newer voters are showing that they don’t care about Obama’s race, but that they like him and will vote for him. THAT’s what i’m hoping will turn the tide in november. The millenials who’ve been moving in interracial circles for all their lives.

I’ve got my own issues as a mixed race woman myself, but i do see a smidgen of hope because he got the nomination. The question is whether a lot of people can swallow their pride and vote for their and the country’s best interests. Not the one that media foists on them(McSame) or that ‘tradtion’ demands we put in office. I don’t see the world in terms of the color of one’s skin. Mostly because in my case, throwing me in with my ‘kind’ is rather hard. Especially when i’m a mix of caucasian, hispanic and black. It’s a question i’ve thrown out at racists as soon as i figured it out. I’m in the middle of the ages of voters here, tail end of Gen X. What started with us, has come full circle with the Millenials which i think is pretty neat. And bodes well for the future if we can get them more involved with politics, and exploring the world in general.

Have it your way…I wish it did not also effect the rest of us so much.

If YOU mention race, YOU are playing the race card.

If I mention race YOU are playing the race card.

Republicans. Having it both ways since 1968.

Great post Ian.

One thing you might have mentioned is the possible effect of the “white lie” – white voters telling pollsters they’ll vote for a black candidate and then failing to follow through when actually in the voting booth.

During the primary, I wrote about Obama and race on one of my blogs. Let me repeat it here:

I am so going to get in trouble for this.

As my readers should know, let me state at the outset that I am not one of those right-wing-nuts who oppose Senator Barak Obama because of his Muslim upbringing (or for that matter his Catholic schooling – which I share) or because they would never vote for a black person due to their own unreconstructed neo-Confederism. My background is quite the opposite. I have spent a few hot August days marching (and helping organize) marches for civil rights and D.C. Statehood. Anyone who knows me knows that I was Marion Barry’s ward healer for upper Northwest Washington. Lawrence Guyot has called me an honorary soul brother.

The candidacy of Senator Obama has gained wide acceptance in the white community in part because he does not speak like civil rights leaders of the past. There is a good reason for this – he isn’t anything like them. The uncomfortable fact is that, should he be nominated or elected, no commentator (unless he or she is completely ignorant) is going to refer to the Senator as a descendant of African slaves. There is an entire shared history that he has no part of. He has never picked cotton and his family did not move to Chicago as part of the northern migration. He is the child of a black African. He is an African American because he was born here and has an American mother, not because he has faced generations of oppression at the hands of American white supremacists (although his family likely suffered under British colonialism, but that is a separate story). If he were to speak in the language of oppression, he would be considered a Wannabe. To call any controversy around his candidacy racism is stretching the point. The issue is more about color than race, if race requires an element of shared cultural experience which frankly the Senator cannot claim.

Obama has much more in common with the immigrant community, which is often at odds with the American descendents of slaves. Of course, if the Obama candidacy can heal that rift, so much the better. If the descendents of slaves are comfortable supporting a candidate who does not share that common history it is their right to do so. Barack Obama has the potential to unite the descendents of slaves with white liberals in a way that has not yet been seen before, although I hope this is not simply a form of settling for what is available. An Obama presidency will definitely have an impact on America’s youth in a profound way, so as a symbol his candidacy is powerful.

We do need to see some substance, however. From where I sit, the main piece of unfinished business in the civil rights movement is the status of our nation’s capital. The question is, will Obama settle for voting rights in one house of Congress or will he go all the way and not only support, but also champion DC statehood? As or more important than that, will he appoint an Administrator for the National Capital Service Area as mandated by the Home Rule Act and empower that Administrator to negotiate an agreement to annually and automatically reimburse the District for services rendered and as importantly provide some financial settlement for those years when no agreement was possible because the office was vacant? How he and his competitors deal with these questions should be the standard as to whether one of them deserves the support of the African American community.

Obviously, the African American community is supporting them, even though his ancestors have more in common with the Muslim slave traders who sold west Africans into slavery than with the slaves themselves. Perhaps he should apologize on behalf of his ancestors for their role in slavery.

Most people don’t see the subtle nuances of racial politics. They see a black guy from Chicago and will vote for or against him as such.

Bringing race out into the open is probably a good thing for Obama, as it will surely swell the turnout of black voters who are more apathetic than whites. Perhaps enough whites will be discouraged enough to stay home, especially the closet racists – rather than turning out for McCain.

McCain has his own problems. He could be a 21st Century Bob Dole – running for generational reasons even though the votes are not there. If he leaves Huckabee off the ticket in favor of Romney, many anti-Obama voters may go with Bob Barr instead, especially in the South. This could throw many red states to Obama, who could run the table.

I am not enthusiastic about this race. Obama has not yet closed the deal with me. McCain most certainly has not, however – although with the Congress firmly in Democratic hands he will be forced to compromise on tax policy in a way that Bush is too short sighted to do. If he refuses to, the Bush tax cuts go away, including the ones the middle class likes, and he will have a bad time of it, which may age him to the point of death – making his VP choice all the more essential. If he picks Huckabee (which I still think he has too) this could make for an interesting for years if McCain does not survive the gridlock.

well, fall inline behind your great and glorious democrat leader.

i don’t understand why everyone just bows down to the party.

money

from Ian’s NYT link

If the percentage of white voters who cannot bring themselves to vote for a black candidate were only 15 percent, that would be more than all black voters combined. (Coincidentally, it also would be more than all voters under 24 years old.) That amounts to a racial advantage for John McCain.

Obama does not necessarily represent a destination but the beginning of a course correction. To think that if he is elected everything is going to be peachy keen is delusion and will lead to frustration and/or despair. If all we can get out of it is real campaign reform and a foreign policy that gets beyond might makes right then that is a start. Universal one payer health care would be great.

OT via NYTimes. (Then I’ll get back to Ian’s excellent post.)

Attorney General Michael Mukasey on Tuesday rejected the idea of criminally prosecuting former Justice Department employees who improperly used political litmus tests in hiring decisions, saying he had already taken strong internal steps in response to a “painful” episode.

Two recent reports from the Justice Department inspector general and its internal ethics office have found that about a half-dozen officials at the Justice Department — all but one now gone — systematically rejected candidates with perceived “liberal” backgrounds for what were supposed to be non-political jobs and sought out conservative Republicans.

In a speech Tuesday morning to the American Bar Association in New York, Mr. Mukasey acknowledged that some critics and commentators have called on the Justice Department to take what he called “more drastic steps” in dealing with the scandal, including prosecuting those at fault and firing those hired through flawed procedures.

“Where there is enough evidence to charge someone with a crime, we vigorously prosecute,” he said. “But not every wrong, or even every violation of the law, is a crime,” he said. As the inspector general’s report acknowledged, the hiring violations were such a case, because the wrongdoing violated federal civil service law, but not criminal law, he said.

Well, that certainly makes me feel better. Especially the “not every wrong or even every violation of the law is a crime” part.

Because the GOP is mostly dead.

The law and order Republicans always get a little squishy and soft when it comes to applying the rule of law to their own cronies.

-G

Because, at this time, the alternative is absolutely unacceptable.

There remains the question of who to vote for. I live in Virginia and the prospect of being the deciding vote in a close election is very real, especially if it meant turning the state from Purple to Blue. I will likely vote for Obama.

Everyone. EVERYONE makes assumptions and judgements based upon partial information as they judge candidates.

Your early conclusions are vastly different from my own, both in substance and in spirit.

I think I’d better leave it at that, rather than dumpster-dive for evidence.

When choosing candidates to support, looking for positive signs does NOT mean one relaxes the intellect and ignores the enormous importance exercising healthy skepticism at all levels of the process.

Okay?

i’m not going to support a democrat that will roll into office with the precedents set by the bush administration.

So you would not vote for a Democrat in this election, no matter who it is?

McCain is so bad it makes Obama look good.

Once again, the race of the least worse.

well, enjoy your new unitary executive. hope it works out for you.

I see those as two separate issues (sans snarky tone), i.e., falling in line with Obama and bowing down to the party. And actually, I think the “falling in line with Obama” thing is not the mindless, passive thing portrayed here. So far, nothing — repeat, nothing — Obama has said, not said, unsaid, resaid, etc. has convinced me that McSame is even one scintilla a better choice to lead us out of BushCoLand. I think Obama is a worthy choice. The party? Not so much.

i don’t understand why everyone just bows down to the party.

I’m not bowing to shit. spent the last year up to my eyeballs in Maverickanalia. he will kill us all period

Tw3k, bloody hell.

I don’t believe he walks on water but the alternative is McSame. It’s a very nasty truth, so go right ahead with that. He signals a bit of real change in the way americans see the world as well. The fact that americans have been 30 or so years behind in terms of progress worldwide is a stark factor. The Shrub just set us back to about 50 years behind now. If McSame gets it, we move even further behind the rest of the world.

But it’s a start if we can do this simple thing, then work our asses off to make sure he can do some good while in office. (Downticket races, etc.) I’m not out for perfect, but i do want to shift the narrative that’s been dictated by the extreme right for as long as i’ve been friggen ALIVE and breathing. Yes, i’m 30 years old, 31 at the end of this month. This is all i know and i’m willing to do what i can to shift it away from this stifling atmosphere. Because there’s no doubt that this is a shift of epic proportions. The question is can we follow through? It’s a marathon and i’m pacing myself; it’s all i can do.

Terrific post Ian.

FWIW a lot of (primarily older) people in America, who had ancestors who were slaves, refer to themselves as “black.” Some, but not all of their offspring refer to themselves as African-Americans.

It’s those of us who are 100% European American who lump all “those people,” together with anyone who has African ancestors. AFAIK, Barack has no ancestors who were slaves, but thanks to the dominant US culture, he “learned” about European American cultural supremacy just the same.

I look forward to a time when all Americans better understand “legalized white supremacy” and how it impacted Native American tribes, semitic peoples, Italians, Irish, Latins, Asians, African slaves, and others. What “white” meant in the U.S. could be very different depending on the decade and the geography.

I understand tw3k’s and others frustration with our Presidential candidate. In light of the 2,386 liberals who donated $157,501, to the money bomb, I am really impressed with their courage/foolhardiness. Liberals such as Russ Feingold and Donna Edwards must be really concerned after that dismal showing. Here’s how Russ responded on August 9:
Feingold remains a McCain admirer
He favors Obama’s views but likes GOP candidate

I am not asking liberals to soften their positions. I am asking us to admit the current political realities. If we want to get things done in the next two years and beyond, we’re going to have to be more tolerant of one another as liberals. We’re also going to have to make tough negotiating choices with Reid and Pelosi. While I would never take the possibility of a third party off the table, we’re going to have to work harder to ELECT BETTER DEMOCRATS. We as liberals really need to build our relationship with the Black Caucus and other Democrats who share some of our beliefs.

OT looking forward I am hoping we can start substituting “white supremacy” for “racism” when it is appropriate.

I really do not know why some here find it so easy to insult Obama, while the 100% European American males such as Reid and Hoyer escape relatively unscathed. Is it laziness? Is it consistent with deeply seated, attitudes about European American supremacy? I have opinions, but I’m not sure and I do not want to speculate. Obama’s the Democrat’s PRESIDENTIAL candidate. Liberals who are pragmatic cannot hold him to the same standards to which they hold Reid, Pelosi, Democrats in the Senate and Democrats in the House. It’s a helluva lot easier to be liberal if you’re from a really blue Congressional district.

I have no problem with liberals criticizing a Democratic Presidential candidate as long as they recognize s/he has to run to the middle. When it’s the first Presidential candidate from either party who is not 100% European American, imho, special care ought to be taken to clarify that the criticism is about a policy issue or issues.

Maybe someone like Feingold. Someone who has been a champion against the egregious policies of the last eight years.

Mukasey’s a gutless wonder

I do not think I said “great and glorious”…Let it be.

At 30 it is all you have ever known and I am sorry about that. There is a better American.
It’s been buried under all this utter crap for so long it’s amazing you can recognize the difference. We can’t and don’t want to go back to what used to be but to move forward and find our values again. They are there.

Welcome and bring your friends. ;)

It will soon be required to post that quote in courthouses everywhere.

I should know better, at my age, than to bring this up, and I’m calling no one here a racist, but I’m compelled to remind everyone that even so much as using the term “race” buys into the racist world view. For, there is no race at the genetic level; there is only race at the cultural level. “Race” is an arbitrary classification, created by racists, at a time when the global European hegemony proclaimed its superiority over everyone else. So, my fellow progressives, stop feeding the racist ideology that pervades our society, and stop referring to “race” as such. “Black” cannot be a “race,” to anyone but a racist, when, among others, there are very black-skinned indigenous people in equatorial Africa, southern India, and Australia. Indeed, the darkest skin in the world occurs in southern India. “Race” is a term that most people accept as a real thing. It’s not.

Your perfect candidate would never get elected. Neither would mine. Neither would anybody’s. Every candidate holds some views that will be unfavorable to the majority of voters. Obama’s flawed policy ideas will not destroy this country from the inside, as McCain’s undoubtedly will. If you see that as voting for the least worst, fine. I’m voting for (at least a chance of) saving this country.

How much did you contribute to the money bomb?

I have to say that I am leery of this whole notion of transformative experiences. Obama said he wanted to bring a new of doing things to Washington but as his actions on the FISA Amendments Act have shown his new way of doing things looks a lot like the same ole same ole.

I don’t disagree with you but what word would you use? That’s part of the difficulty of this subject – using the correct words.

Obama has not yet closed the deal with me

Please let us know when Barack calls.

You post just like a limousine liberal.

Can you add to your instruction something about acceptable language. Are you saying that the correct manner of conversation is without any “classification”? I am certainly open to a larger explanation beyond what is NOT acceptable. Thanks

(I cannot respond for awhile; work calls.)

If my family wasn’t half canadian (my mom never gave up her citizenship and i spent whole summers over in canada) i’d never have KNOWN there was a marked difference in the way people see the world around them. It gave me a chance to be somewhere where the color of my skin pretty much meant absolutely NOTHING. I’m just another face in the crowd over there. Here? I still get odd looks for being a very obvious mix of races from some of the older folks. As if i’m supposed to fit into some preconceived ideal because of the color of my skin. Canada’s not perfect either(especially with their treatment of First Nations), but there’s a few hangups here that just don’t exist there.

Otherwise i spend my time breaking through things by being myself, and using what the i learned about being me over there. I’d stay 80% of people i get along with just fine, and the race thing never comes up. But there’s still that nasty 20% that shows up and reminds me that we’ve got a LONG way to go. This could be the start of it.

Yes, but that estimate does not count new voters who ignore the ballot box because they think it won’t make a difference. Quite a few of these folks may be voting this time.

Read the link in 34. I love Russ. I contribute to his Progressive Patriot’s fund. But Russ saw what happened on August 8 and reacted in a very understandable way.

Ian, I’m afraid I agree with you. I believe Obama may make a fine president, perhaps a great president. Certainly a better man for the job than that whack job who will be representing rethugs. But I will be amazed if this country elects a black man. I just don’t know that we are ready to do this. Looking around, I have my doubts.

“The question is can we follow through?” WTF is that suppose to mean.

Obama has already said he doesn’t need my support. He’s going to win if i support him or not. it is same old neo-lib policy and i don’t support it.

If McCain does get in, one wonders if he will go after war criminals and torturers? The only hope is that with his sense of honor, he just might.

What is truly sad in this campaign is the number of Rovers from the Bush team who are altering the original McCain message in such an ugly way. He may be shooting himself in the foot more than he hits Obama.

There’s a lot of concern right now among the tradesmen I work amongst. Between gas prices, falling home prices, and wage pressure by illegal workers, the fear is right on the surface.

I’ve heard a lot of barely below the surface racism, in some of the most suprising places, over the last few months. Mostly directed at immigrants, but also a general fear of no longer being the majority.

I’m glad you’re talking about it. I believe it’s more fear of the future than actually hating people of other skin tones, but I am usually overly optimistic.

I hope the democrats can set a populist agenda and really drive it home to help bring us together.

Times are scary, and IMO this is a “whats in it for me” election.

Last night on one of the TV national “news” programs (maybe ABC, I was not watching but heard it when I walked by the tube), the talking head was saying that Obama is not American at all. Basically, he was raised in Hawaii, Indonesia, etc. and was not part of the “American experience.” The final blow for me was when that head said something to the effect of, “I don’t know who will raise the issue, but someone should.” To which my response was, “Yeah. Thanks for that.”

To Michael B’s point above, that Obama is not African American (ie: come from slavery), why do we call him “black?” In this analysis, he is really more black than white, but in seeing him as “black” (or not really), are we failing to see that he is really more white than black?

He is one of the few truly “African” Americans, que no? Just not up from slavery. Qualifying or not?

For me, the discussion of race is virtually irrelevant. But we gotta keep the skin color issue going, I guess.

Unless something’s changed in the past few years, which I seriously doubt, there are no criminal penalties for Hatch Act violations – only administrative. The guilty can be administratively punished, up to and including being fired, but if they have already resigned (e.g., Goodling) there is no recourse. Those hired onto the Civil Service rolls can’t be summarily fired unless they are still probationary (within the first year).

I’m no fan of Mukasey, but I can see his point here.

The Bush Republicans are rallying to Georgia’s cause and will show their full might and fury with those terrible Russian bears.

Hugh Hewitt is advocating a Stoly boycott.

That’ll show those Rooskies not to fuck with the US.

Pathetic.

-G

Agree and Ian’s posts about this have been right on target. This is what the next four years will be about for many Americans, food, shelter, warmth in the winter, the solvency of our banks …..

I wonder how many other think the same way as you. I really do. Obviously i should shut my mouth because you aren’t going to change your mind, and neither will i. But you can go right ahead blaring your desire for the perfect.

Please do not confuse me with the facts. I have lived for nearly eight years in BushCoLand, and facts are not permitted here. *g*

oh, right. the pursuit of the “perfect.”

Actually, on most inventories which include liberalism, libertarianism, authoritarianism and conservatism, I score on the line between liberal and libertarian.

What is truly sad in this campaign is the number of Rovers from the Bush team who are altering the original McCain message in such an ugly way.

McCain had an original message? What century was that in?

his sense of honor,

altering the original McCain message in such an ugly way.

uh Michael, don’t mean to cocme off as a condescending scold – but you have some reading to do. he is a craven opportunist.the anti-Andy Hardy. the flip flops, cynicism, and posturing you’re seeing now was there long before Steve Schmidt showed up – just that 22 years of burnishing that image has been vaporized in the electoral glare

Our most pro-active act in campaigning has simply been to have an Obama sign out front, where it joins our flag, and our yellow ribbon and, in this season, red, white, blue & purple flowers.

The flag, ribbon and flowers have been standard for almost 8 years (duh). Upon the invasion of Iraq, the flag was turned upside down, serving in its legal function as a signal of extreme danger. It was righted again after Democrats gained their slim majority in Congress – to signal a possibility of change for the better.
The Obama sign was added when it became clear he would/should be the Democratic nominee for President. It was vandalized once, so it’s a little wrinkled on one corner & the knuckle prints of the vandal remain visible, but the edges are reinforced and “other measures” have been taken to ensure its survival against further vandalism [never mind; humor a seasoned campaigner; trust that i know how to protect a sign in a very effective but non-lethal manner; future would-be vandals are here-by served warning]

The point of all this run-on patter? This sign display, our presence in this community, our willingness to converse with anyone who asks ANYTHING at all about the display, our conservation easement on our land, our values, the whys and wherefores of it all, we are prepared to talk about.

The simple fact of this stance and availability is an amazingly powerful campaigning tool. Close neighbors who never in the wide world would ever consider voting for an African American before now plan to vote with confidence and enthusiasm for Obama. They know why. They now help us spread the word and counter the stupid false Repugnik attacks on the candidate. Delivery truck drivers, mailman, local farmers who drive by and know us. They wave, toot the horn in a friendly gesture of approval, and their minds open just a bit more. They get curious and check out the rumors on their own, and spread the word. Comments made in the grocery store can be starting points also. Setting straight a false statement when someone repeats a stoopid rushism or roverism, and suggesting where the rumor was started. Urging people to vote. Helping them to make sure they know where and how.

It’s all of a package.

It’s more subtle than most campaigning techniques, but it works. I see it on people’s faces. Such techniques reduce and often eliminate the irrational fears spewed by rover & rush. They work. I think they often are more effective than going door to door to talk with strangers, because such campaigns necessarily pit the campaigner against the natural barrier of stranger-to-stranger confrontation. What I’m talking about above is largely controlled by the person you want to inform and influence. Letting them retain that power increases your own.

Try it. ;->

lol – Sorry! *g*

As I understand it, Obama himself faced his race in his first book, where he decided to identify with the culture of his neighbors.

Hugh Hewitt is advocating a Stoly boycott

.

but will Mr Ground Zero give up his caviar ?

What might happen, especially among the immigration judges, is that their cases may be overturned or at least reheard, if there was the slightest hint of bias.

The solvency of their banks

heh. good eye.

That’s certainly possible, but IMO proving discrimination based on this would be a pretty high hurdle.

Then what do you want? A firebrand progressive that will never get elected in today’s media environment? We’ve got a bare few of those, we saw them all picked off one by one by the same media as the primaries wore on. Really, what DO you want? Since Obama can’t even give you part of it, and since he actually has to play the politics that are there. The system sucks, our leadership sucks and the whole thing needs changing. The media sucks most of all.

It’s good to know up front that what we are up against. To me, though, the main lesson of this diary is STFU about race. Yes, it’s a disadvantage. Yes, the other side will use it a) because it’s an effective weapon and they are desperate; and b) because they’re evil. But as the diarist points out, complaining about it is a losing proposition in a political campaign — you cannot win that argument. If the other side steps over the line between coded and explicit racial appeals, then recent history shows they will be punished in the media and the voting booth (see Tinker). Otherwise, we just have to soldier on with other arguments. Fortunately, there are plenty out there to be made.

sorry, ian, but i don’t buy into the whole “he should be doing better” meme.

because gore was a million times the candidate bush was, but they were essentially tied thru out the race.

and kerry was 100 times the candidate bush was, but they were essentially tied thru out the race.

and obama is a million times the candidate that mcmuffin is, but they are essentially tied thru out the race.

except, they aren’t essentially tied. that’s a media myth. a media myth propounded to make it an exciting horse race which is good for revenues for the media.

obama is ahead. always has been. it’s pretty wrapped up and, assuming (and i’m not) that cheney doesn’t pull a terrorist attack out of his ass, or that various state sec. of states lose a truckload of democratic votes, there is very little chance obama will lose.

ian, you’re buying into the gop/media meme, it has to be a landslide to count.

it doesn’t. obama just has to gather 272 electoral votes. three polling sites have obama far ahead of that standard in electoral votes and zogby has obama almost to that point (see my discussion here, in the addendum).

also, the dems are poised to take the senate w/a non-filibusteral (if i may make up a word on the spot) majority, and retain a huge majority in the house. it’s a trifecta. how the f*ck much more winning do you need?

the trick is, of course, not to listen to the media, but research your own figures, which i’m surprised that you of all people are not doing.

538.com discusses the myth of the bradley effect here, ie, few people today is really going to lie to pollsters about not voting for a black guy.

i discuss a paper presented to the international statistics institute concerning the mistake of equating “falling within the margin of error” w/”statistical tie,” which is not the case, here.

obama is comfortably ahead. but the media aren’t reporting that, because that’s not exciting.

are there still rednecks that wouldn’t vote for jesus christ if he came back because he’s a swarthy semitic? yes.

are there rednecks in the board room that won’t say out loud how they hate the ”d*rkies”, but create policies to keep the colored folk downtrodden? yes.

are we living in a wonderful world of peace and harmony where all men are brothers and everyone is judged according to character, without rancor?

get real. life sucks.

but obama is ahead. that is a fact.

the gop’s main talking point about “why isn’t obama doing better” can be seen, in the light of reality, as “well, mccain is a loser, but he’s not that big of a loser.”

but a loser is a loser.

rest easy, my friend. if you’re going to worry about something, worry about election stealing or fake terrorist attacks. don’t worry about bigotry, because, while we’ll always have bigotry, we are making inroads.

We’re starting to see people’s true colours. The closer we get to the election we’re beginning to see some getting cold feet. When the campaign was hot and the energy level was astounding they were all for an AA prez. Now that the reality is in their face it’s a different story. No matter how bad McSFB would be, and we all know it, there are Dems who will stay home in November or leave that part of the ballot blank. Like I said the other day, it’s funny how fast people turn when those they revered don’t live up to their expectations.

Negative expectations yield negative results.

Positive expectations yield negative results.

I guess i want real change not some glossy ad campaign trying to sell the same old shit as change.

just curious, do you plan to vote? What to do? I’ve often thought that if “none of the above” were on the ballot “none” would often win.

Sure there are Americans who won’t vote for a black man. There are also Americans who won’t vote for a woman or a Clinton or an adulterer or a trial lawyer.

I don’t see evidence that Obama is any more difficult to get elected than the alternatives.

Stoly boycott? BFD.

Oil exports funded this horror show. Convince the Europeans that they don’t need Russian oil and natural gas and you could get the tanks out of Georgia in fairly short order.

Unfortunately, the Europeans do need Russian oil and gas. Puti has the Europeans by the balls, and they know it. They know it much better than the Dim Son.

BC

*holding breath in rapt excitement*

I guess i want real change not some glossy ad campaign trying to sell the same old shit as change.

A Black Man as President certainly wouldn’t be real change.

IMHO, Jesse Helms and Strom Thurmond laid out the tactical road map. They were white supremacists in the Democratic party when it made white supremacy illegal. Jesse and Strom responded by calling themselves “conservative” Democrats. Over the decades, they got a lot more done than George Wallace, who formed a third party.

Again, we should never take a third party off the table, it’s just not a real option at this point. We need to focus on electing liberal better Democrats.

All we’re given to chose from is ‘glossy ad campaigns’. *shrugs* It’s the only way the media will allow anything to go foward*, the way it’s set up today. The system needs changing, but we can’t do anything even approaching that with another Rethug in office.

*Which means as far backwards as it takes to keep the Status Quo.

woah, i can’t believe the board moderator censored the word “d*rkies” in my comment!

not complaining, i’m just saying, i used it in context of what a klan-type would say, and i’ve seen much worse languange in terms of sexual innuendo here.

no worries, just a notation.

New David post upstairs.

i’m so disgusted that none it is.

wow, change of skin tone. that’ll fix stuff!

ok. Now here’s the other part:
If you don’t vote you don’t have any business complaining about the result.
Is that ok with you?

thanks

if there was something to vote for i’d vote.

I don’t support the policy and at this point i’ll caucus with political groups that represent my interests like the ACLU and EFF rather than waste a vote.

That you would see only a “change in skin tone” in Obama as President is a fairly damning indictment.

We all are.

But, I think in order to change things we’re going to have to be willing to give up on certain things in order to get stuff done.

What’s most important to me is that we support FDL. It’s imho a real force within the liberal wing of the Democratic party. Per others above most liberals and Democrats don’t give a shit about FISA. They’re worried about food, shelter, jobs, heat in the winter… . They’re afraid we’re limousine liberals who won’t support them. It takes time to change old attitudes.

of what

538.com discusses the myth of the bradley effect here, ie, few people today is really going to lie to pollsters about not voting for a black guy.

I’m not buying that 538 post because they included all the caucuses – where Obama was likely to outperform simply due to the level of commitment and the demographics. I’m not going to go through and weed out all the caucuses (partly because I’m lazy and partly because I may be just talking to myself here), but if you look at the actual primary states, one major example being the first, NH – Clinton +8.9% over the expected (poll) result.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this.

I’d say that not voting is a wasted vote. Someone is going to win. If you choose not to participate what effect have you had?

i’ll support the progressive caucus, BA people, and organizations like the AACLU and EFF.

i’m not going to vote for policy i don’t support.

The Catholic vote is an important consideration here. If Obama puts Senator Casey on the ticket, the GOP Bishops will be hard pressed to make their veiled threat to damn Democratic voters for supporting a pro-choice candidate(as if they could).

Obama, for his part, must make a better defense of the pro-choice position than Kerry did (his argument was pluralism, which as wishy washy). Obama needs to attack the pro-life argument head on – from the refusal to outline what legal measures will be used to enforce fetal rights to attacking those measures as bad public policy.

This gives the constituency that might be uncomfortable with Obama’s race less room to hide behind the Church. They might even stay home, which is as good as a yes vote if it wins Ohio and Pennsylvania.

Thank you Ian.

I for one appreciate your willingness to let us see your thought processes.

I grew up in a quietly, but very definitely racist family. There was lots of parental love, but the other was he## for me, since our parents did not believe it was proper to discuss matters such as politics, race, religion…
Oh how I hated that. It was the ’40’s & ’50’s. There wasn’t much recourse for a rebellious kid in those days. I turned to books for knowledge, and it helped, but the pain was there to remind me it was wrong. How people treated each other, and why they did much of what supposedly came naturally to their minds, was horribly wrong.

Suffice to say, when I went off to multi-racial, color-blind college, where discussion was not only allowed, but encouraged, I felt as if I had sprouted wings.

I still just don’t “get” racism. But I accept that it certainly exists. It seems very human to tend to want walls between one’s self and anything “other”. I just can’t. I won’t.

I am thrilled that Obama is so riveting a speaker and shows such a good heart and energy. I am confident these talents will help defuse a lot of the unreasoning ill-will that tips the playing field at this time, and maybe always will during my lifetime. It should not be so.

I will gladly vote for Obama, because he has earned my vote. I have confidence he will work for the whole country, not just some small segment, as has been witnessed recently.

Hopefully, he can spearhead efforts to right some of the horrific wrongs of the bush-cheney debacle. I think he is supremely qualified to give it a shot. We can’t ask more of any candidate.

This has nothing at all to do with race, in my mind. I accept what you say, and I think I understand what you mean. I’ve certainly seen if for myself. I have been witness to mindless hatred and mistrust playing out, during my lifetime. I know the damage still persists. But we will rise above the differences and work together. I feel it.

It takes willingness on all sides. But it’s there if we want it badly enough.

why don’t you just sit there in your funk, then?!

just don’t expect me to bring you your daily dose of kibbles.

gonna have to get up on yer own 2 feet and do that for yourownself, bud.

enjoy.

i think it’s hiding under the next page

lol

try to help.

please.

the fact that you are at FDL hints that you probably already are

if so, please disregard this notice. *g*

sorry. is my slip showing?

ctsy seinfeld: “Cantstandja!” came to mind. egad. apologies. *g*

lol, i did realize Limousine liberal was an actual term. You really self-identify as such a thing?

lol, your a character with character.

That’s great. I support both the ACLU and EFF.

Those aren’t the meat and potato issues that most Americans are concerned about. You’re what I referred to above as a limousine liberal. Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are fighting the GOP on issues such as taxes, banking reform, off-shore oil drilling, funding renewable, sustainable energy, environmental issues, law enforcement and the list goes on. If you’re not helping them with at least a few of their issues, they’re not going to help you with any of yours.

sorry boyz.

ignore environmental, renewable, sustainable issues and u can just forget tomorrow.

no snark.

lol! your vaunted leadership are better described as limousine liberals.

I know, i know, i should just listen to the nice happy progressive message and not look at the votes or see through the kabuki.

I support both the ACLU and EFF

good on ya!

Are you sure you are not conflating the term biological term ‘race’ with ’species?’

I know I’m being nit picky, but let’s define terms carefully.

In biology, a color variation among the same species is called a “race” or variety. There’s a north american bird species called a rufous sided Towhee, and there are an “eastern” race and a “western” race, the difference being the distribution of color. The two can freely interbreed, but are separated by geography and that isolation allowed for the development of these color variations.
Something like how the isolation of human tribes by geography allowed for the derivation of “white” people from our common dark-skinned ancestors in Africa, as the northern isolates (we’re talking 10s of thousands of years here) faded in color due to long dark, cloudy winters, and much colder temperatures.

Fair to say, I think, that those rationalizing slavery in their ignorance applied the term “race” to imply a near-different species of humans, thus sub-human, but, as you say, there are no genetic differences among all members of the human race that prevent successful reproduction. So “race” is an inaccurately applied term, so caught up in the pain and hatred of the legacy of slavery that it stings just to hear it.

Surely you can see that there are differences of form among peoples from different regions that are far beyond just skin color. Don’t most all native people from the Indian sub-continent have straight hair? Don’t Australian aborigines have straight hair?

And it’s true, a larger percentage of white men can’t jump. Ever wonder why? It’s the genes.

Nothing of what I say here implies any so-called racial “superiority,” if you are measuring moral behavior and the ability to reason. But if you are running a 100 meter dash, there are gene factors involved.

what are we here, a coda?

aren’t they short & to the point?

symphony’s o-v-e-r

*clap clap clap clap POOF*

*heaves biology textbook through the toobz*

What’s your alternative? We live in a hierarchical society with big decisions affecting all made by one, sometimes deluded, individual. Take the situation in Georgia. I do not understand why that president poked at the Russians. Perhaps he thought NATO or the US would come to his aid. Talk about deluded. Lots of people die and lots of damage is done because one guy messes up. Same is true with us and Iraq. Lots of damage done because a few people in power made bad choices.

Until that changes, we must work with what we have. Obama isn’t perfect and he doesn’t run more to the left because he doesn’t want to scare white voters more than his being black does. He broke with that pastor because the pastor insisted Obama was a more radical black than he was letting on. He walks a tight line-can’t be too white for the blacks or too black for the whites. At this point in time before we come up with something that makes we the people control governmental decision making, Obama is our only hope. If you’d rather have McCain’s finger on the button, we will see where that leads. I don’t think it will lead anywhere good. That’s the interesting thing about political discussions. We all talk as if we know what we’re talking about. We don’t because we can’t. All our crystal balls are equally cloudy.

The only option is to fight against bad policy. What else is there to do?

Voting for more bad policy isn’t going to work.

What on earth are you talking about? How do you propose to fight against bad policy? Right now all we can do is change policy makers. I’m all for something that uses the internet to create something like electronic democracy. I don’t believe we can get it in place by November.

recycling’s good, usually.

electronics are hard to recycle though.

mebbe ship it to India or sumthin’

*heaves old government textbook into the toobz*

If McCain does get in, one wonders if he will go after war criminals and torturers? The only hope is that with his sense of honor, he just might.

This *is* tongue-in-cheek, ins’t it? If not, Google for “Keating Five” Silverado McCain, and prepare to have you dream bubble burst. McCain even made Neil Bush look like an honest broker.

letters, faxes, phone calls, petitions and moral/financial support of good congress people.

*cockroach skitters out and dashes into another toob*

*cockroach finds tasty crumb & starts munching*

You have got to be kidding. The 2006 election and its aftermath should have disabused you of that notion.

cockroaches have evolved, but they still don’t jump as well as… others.

no shit and you think i’m going to be blindly lead by some piece of shit democrat?

it is a terrible thing to escape having been disabused

ouch

led

I think it would be infinitely superior to being led by a piece of shit Republican

?

lol, thanks.

link please

at this point, i’m not so sure and since neither need my support i’ll let them duke it out.

carry on yer honour.

i must go relieve some highly evolved but annoyingly conceived beetles from their disabusive habits in the bean patch.

P. E. A. C. E.

late adie

shhhh. e’s lookin’ up some links… ;->

sorry. it’s that peace thingie. takes extra time.

At this point you’re not sure. Now that’s what I call an open mind.

heh, i’m outta here too. pointless never ending argument.

enjoy the garden!

no more like #1, deal?

hope you & yours are doing well.

later…

New Blue Texan post a few flights upstairs

I’m hoping that Obama, who I am voting for, will not only break the racist curse/legacy of the US to some extent, but also govern from near the center so as to get reelected and thus have an impact on Supreme Court appointments. That’s a lot of what’s at stake here, folks. McCain will, if elected, send us a long way further down the road to the implementation of an oligarchy via court appointments, and that’s a sobering thought that ought to grab this poster who opened with “f**k Obama” right in the f**king area. Fast.

Who are you? You can’t be serious. I said I think Obama would be better than McCain and you want a link. I know the election’s not going to be unanimous, but that McCain might win strikes me as a terrible indictment of democracy. Check out Ackerman’s post on Randy Scheunemann a couple posts above this one (sorry I don’t know how to do links) see if that changes your mind.

Yeah. We should let Obama try to fix what Cheney/Bush/The conservatives have screwed up. And you know what is going to happen?

To the extent that Obama can’t fix the unfixable, it will become because he is Black, not because the Republican/conservatives have screwed things up beyond all redemption.

Just wait. You will see.

And I’m still a White Texan who graduated from an all white segregated High School who is going to vote for Obama. He won’t win Texas, but he will have coattails that Hillary could never have had, and it a generation and a half, things are really going to start changing. The kids today are better than we ever were.

Oh, and there will also be a woman President within a generation because women’s advances have followed those of Blacks in America by about half a generation. There is a connection.

Twain said
“I don’t disagree with you but what word would you use? That’s part of the difficulty of this subject – using the correct words.”

and RevBev said
“Can you add to your instruction something about acceptable language. Are you saying that the correct manner of conversation is without any “classification”? I am certainly open to a larger explanation beyond what is NOT acceptable.”

and paz3 said
“Surely you can see that there are differences of form among peoples from different regions that are far beyond just skin color. Don’t most all native people from the Indian sub-continent have straight hair? Don’t Australian aborigines have straight hair?”

I readily admit that there is no “correct” or even adequate replacement for the term “race,” if one is determined to refer to a collection of genetically heterogeneous people that have historically been categorized as some “race” or other, for all or part of the history of their relations with people of European descent. My point is that we should be aware that what we understand to be “racial” categorizations are nothing but the invention of racists, based as they are on, for the most part, an oversimplified category of skin color, such as “black” or “white,” neither of which refers to a group with uniform skin color. If, for example, we refer to “white” people as if it were a homogeneous group, we are manifesting an inherently racist view of the world’s incredibly genetically diverse people. If you want the “correct” word for “them,” try Homo sapiens, or people, or humans. And if you want to use superficial physical characteristics to specify about whom you’re talking, try eye color, or curliness of their hair, or whether or not they have distinct earlobes. Even the most well-meaning progressive will echo paz3’s comment that “Something like how the isolation of human tribes by geography allowed for the derivation of “white” people from our common dark-skinned ancestors in Africa, as the northern isolates (we’re talking 10s of thousands of years here) faded in color due to long dark, cloudy winters, and much colder temperatures.” However this always misses the point that there is no homogeneous portion of the human species with “white” skin–rather, whitish skin color is a continuous spectrum from the almost milky white of some people in the British Isles, through the less whitish people of western Europe, to the definitely un-whitish skin of the people who live in the Caucasus Mountains and who gave their name to the “white” “races.” To sum up, when you describe someone other than yourself as belonging to a particular “race,” you’re falling prey to the racist point of view that permeates your culture.
In spe.

Rick,

Yes. Well said.

Maybe we can all work together, in our separate corners of this country, and ease a few of those problems on a faster schedule, and maybe not.

We have to try. Just because it’s the right and just thing to do.

Thank you.

oh dear oh dear.

may I refer you to #100, this thread?

it’s a bit long, but it might ease some of your concerns.

sincerely, A.

Who are you? You can’t be serious.

i shall treasure that always.

who WAS that Sapphire-vented Puffleg???

Double dare ya to google it & then click “Images”. Oh it be. It’s serious. And it’s cute. And it’s probably endangered.

Please please please vote for someone who cares about the environment.

Yes, the candidate of choice, hands down – be they black white brown pink or sapphire – would be Barack Obama.