All the diplomatic chatter on the Georgian/Russian war from the West has been Kabuki. Georgia’s part of Russia’s sphere of influence, and Russia will do what it wants with it. This is part of the price of a couple of decades of policy towards Russia. There is no love in Russian political circles for the US, and very little for the EU. There is even less love for NATO. Nearly 20 years ago Gorbachev agreed with George Bush I not to use the Red army to crush dissent and rebellion in the Warsaw Pact states. Let there be no doubt that the Red army was perfectly capable of doing so. In exchange George I agreed that NATO would not expand to former Warsaw Pact countries.
NATO, the US and Europe broke their word. They expanded NATO further and further, into what Russia considers its buffer states, states which cannot be allowed to fall into the hands of potential enemies. Russian geopolitics has been obsessed with controlling those states for centuries (along with getting a warm water port). This is not a short term, minor issue. It is at the heart of what Russia believes it needs to be defensible—lots and lots of space.
Next, US and Western policy towards Russia in the 90’s was based around a shock therapy transition to a free market. The result of that was an actual decline in the Russian population. US neo-liberal economics applied to Russia killed millions of people. No exaggeration. It wasn’t the only cause, but when you’ve promised the sky (and the free-marketers did) and the result is hell on earth, well, people remember that.
The color revolutions flooded minor border states such as Georgia with money and operatives and put in pro-Western, anti-Russian governments, leading one of my friends to observe acidly that "the US shouldn’t buy countries it can’t afford".
And meanwhile the US tells patent lies about wanting to put in ABM systems to protect against a non-existent Iranian missile threat and builds bases in as many ex-Russian Republics as it can, in what appears to the Kremlin to be an attempt to encircle Russia.
One can imagine the reaction if Latin American countries had joined the Warsaw Pact. Or if Canada, even today, were to install Russian ABMs to protect against the threat of North Korean nukes. Washington would know the ABM system could only be meant to be used against them. And as for a Russian led military pact enrolling members in Latin America, you can only imagine the apoplexy.
Russia feels surrounded, ill used and disrespected by the West and by the US in particular. It feels betrayed by NATO expansion. It observes that the only threat NATO expansion could be guarding against is obviously it, and takes the expansion as a direct threat.
Americans and Europeans need to think real hard about NATO expansion and continued encirclement of Russia. Imagine how you’d feel, how you’d react if the situation was reversed.
Imagine, more importantly, what you’d do if Georgia had been accepted into NATO. Let’s say that the Russians invaded anyway (and yes, they might) what would you do if Georgia invoked the "one country is attacked, all countries are attacked" clause? Are you going to really go to war with Russia over Georgia? Really?
And are you sure Russia would back down? I don’t, personally, think Putin and Medvedev could survive a loss of such prestige.
Even in the current situation what’s the US or NATO going to do? The only thing I can think of it could do would be to airlift in troops. What would Russia’s response to that be? Well, one scenario is they’d attack everywhere the troops aren’t, enfold them in a pocket and put them under siege, without firing at them (except "accidentally") until they eventually wound up repatriating them. Worst case, well worst case is war, with the bulk of the US army deployed in all the wrong places to do anything about it.
Russia’s not Iraq. They’re not militarily as strong as the US, but they also aren’t deployed incorrectly. And they’re bloody minded and willing to take huge casualties.
I bet NATO breaks. And if NATO doesn’t, World War III.
Sure, Russia might back down. But she might not either.
Are you willing to risk it to stop Russia from having its own sphere of influence? To stop Russia from doing its own, slightly larger, Panama invasions?
The West has been pushing Russia into a corner for a long time. That’s not smart. Russia’s not the USSR, but it’s not a joke power either. A war with Russia would be a real war, so we need to consider very carefully in what situations we’d be willing to fight one with Russia. (Do recall Russia has plenty of nukes). If we aren’t really willing to go to war over something, we shouldn’t risk our credibility, or the chance of a war, by acting like we are.
And no, no one is willing to go to war for Georgia. That’s not fair to Georgia, and they may have thought otherwise since they sent 2,000 troops to Iraq and are due reciprocal help. But the geopolitics are simple, Georgia was part of Russia or the USSR for 2 centuries. If Russia wants to slap them around, that’s unfortunate, but there just isn’t much we can do about it.
And there won’t be for a long time. Because if you want to have leverage over Russia you have to have, not so much military leverage (they are not the types to be intimidated) but economic leverage. And as long as oil is riding high, they have it and we need it, well the economic leverage mostly runs the other way.
In the 90s the West’s could shove Russia around because they needed the West’s economic health. Not any more. Power comes in many forms, and when you don’t take care of the most fundamental base of power – your economy, you lose the ability to tell other countries what to do.
Russia didn’t like being a chump. And eventually they decided to start being taken seriously again.
"Oh, so the Chechens won a war against us. Let’s find a pretext to do this all over again, and let’s win the war even if it means depopulating their capital by 90%."
Russia’s quite willing to do whatever it takes to be taken seriously by everyone around them. So Georgia will take it on the chin. Even if oil wasn’t over $100/barrel we might not be able to convince them otherwise. But with the US economy trashed and Russia riding high, there isn’t any leverage at all. And Georgia will pay part of the price.
Related posts:
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- JP Morgan Chase CEO Promises to be Good on Derivatives
- Rahm Cutting Deals To “Go Easy” On Republicans in 2010 Who Vote For Supplemental?
- Doug Hoffman’s Cunning Plan to Reduce the Deficit: Cutting Earmarks, Taxes





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Georgia gambled and lost.
I wonder who will replace the Georgian troops in Iraq, which were operating near the Iranian border.
What Georgia gambled on was George Bush’s honor. That was stupid.
gambled for what? did it really think a hostile moscow would let this slip? or was it fooled by U.S. officials telling it that they would support anything it did (which some claim is what happened to Saddam in 1990)
Thanks for your insight. The (insert western power) will now send covert ops to Chechenia to foment unrest & take Putins eye off Georgia. Pass the pop corn.
i wonder whether the US will use this to strong arm Poland and the Czech Republic on the ABM systems?
Matthew Yglesias;
Sorry, here is the link to Yglesias;
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/
Thank you for reminding the idiots in White House, who obviously have VERY short attention spans and memories, of this undeniable fact.
Bushco will do anything to solidify his place in history. Keep an eye on these guys. If there is money to be made in no bid contracts, I am sure Cheney is looking for a way to get his friends a piece. This type of uncertainty keeps oil high for all of their friends.
Bringing about WWIII may be what they had in mind all along.
Ian,
Did you listen to democracy now this morning? Col. Sam Gardiner sez it is announced Russian policy, and they have practice runs, to use nukes if US attacks Russian military. Russians have moved a missile into the neighborhood.
dya think?
yeah, bomb iran and call it quits
Our only card in this is Iran we back off maybe the Russians will deal and if Bush is lucky it will be a secret deal that saves his reputation.
In general, speak about poking a rattlesnake with a stick.
Digg it!
Not to mention, if NATO went to war with Russia over Georgia, Western Europe would find a significant amount natural gas cut off — guess who would cry uncle first.
I can’t find the source, but there are reports of Americans in black uniforms (Blackwater gear) fighting in Georgia. And at least one American explosive expert being taken prisoner by the Russians.
Or will Russia use this to strong arm Poland and the Czech Republic on the ABM systems?
Yes that will be part of the deal or after Georgia falls then who is next becomes the question Poland the Ukraine? Trying to ring Russia with enemies when high oil prices let Russia buy whatever they want for their army was dumb.
Waiting for oil prices to go down and then doing that would have been smart.
Exactly. Iran is in Russia’s sphere of influence too…
So….
Where does that leave us…WWIII….
oh and the second coming depending on how crazy you think these Bushco folks really are…
Would be funny if Cheney did all this to make money and Bush did all this to bring about armageddon…talk about the law of unintended consequences.
Georgia did not do this independently.
Bush did not approve this without Israel’s inclusion.
Since there was a direct attack by Georgia against civilians (Genocide) – including the burning of a church, I invite you to draw your own conclusions where the planning and implementation was concerned.
Things are not as they appear. Ever.
Discern Reality.
First Newhour story is Russia; second is Edwards.
touche.
the U.S. would need to offer a lot more to make the palatable
I know this is good news for Republicans. Can someone call Rove and ask how.
Don’t forget the oil.
I read the same thing somewhere earlier… Here’s something from Kos about it…
That is so disgusting what with the actual news happening in the country right now….
Look over there Edwards had an affair….don’t look over here at the economy imploding and the possibility of USA losing its AAA credit rating.
Nothing to see here….move along.
I think Putin told Little Boots a couple of years ago that if the US attacked Iran for any reason that Russia would back the Iranians
Which is why Little Boots looked more petulant than usual at their presser after the meeting.
And Russia invading Georgia changes that not one whit.
I was replying to Edwards…being the second news story.
My comment at 19 should have been more clear Russia will want a side deal no anti missile system in the former Warsaw Pact countries or Former members of the USSR.
Bush always wanted to be a war president against a real enemy Be careful what you wish for.
Does anyone recall whose bright idea it was to consider Georgia as a member of NATO? Or, for that matter, Turkey as a member of the EU? Both seem equally wrong-headed to me, particularly given the way things are playing out.
I didn’t realize that. Even I wonder if the Russians would really use nukes.
We got no problem with accepting reality here its the Neocons who need that lecture:)
Ukraine, I think. Ukraine is much more in Russia’s sphere than Poland.
Here’s the rush transcript from the show.
There appears to have been ethnic cleansing on both sides. I’m honestly not sure who started it, though I’m more than open to believing Georgia did. If they did at Bush’s behest, they’re idiots. Bush is never to be relied on for anything.
Thanks Marion.
And most Americans think McCain is the stronger on foreign policy. I’m beginning to believe in conspiracy theories and this was a set up in order to have McCain elected. Bush wants a repub in to bury his sins.
FWIW, I believe Turkey has been a member of NATO for decades. It has always been part Europe and part ME, so in many ways, letting Turkey into the EU does make sense on a lot of levels, and might even help to keep Greece and Turkey talking instead of fighting.
Or not.
Dugg it!
Good Post — Thank You. I’ve been screaming that same things since Friday. The US funded and supplied the Georgian army, and encouraged Saakashvili’s desire to impose Georgian policies on South Ossetia.
Those of us who came out of the poli-sci programs in the 80’s could easily have predicted Russia’s response to Saakashvili’s attack. What used to be called the Molotov doctrine under Soviet foreign policy has remained in effect. The doctrine emphasized the necessity of stable, friendly, border states in order to protect the Soviet Union from invasion. It amazes me that the old ‘cold warriors’ — which littler the Bush administration — didn’t see this coming. Apparently, their incompetence transcends any area of supposed expertise.
Well we have shot our wad w/ Iraq. In your face diplomacy hasn’t worked w/ Iran. ahh I have it – Obama is an elitest
Case for Turkey is stronger. All through the cold war they were an extremely important NATO member.
That said, I think the EU has already over-expanded and should stop for a while and fix its internal problems. But I’m not an EU fan, I think it’s gone too far in most ways.
Oh jeeze, The Wapo loves it some Commander Guy;
President Bush Demands Cease-Fire in Georgia
http://www.washingtonpost.com/
I posted that same video link this morning..where the woman claims she saw men in black uniforms with a US emblem on their arms (likely a flag). From the link to the article and video on KOS:
“If Blackwater is operating in Georgia, their personnel are not going to have legal status are combatants. Being mercenaries, they are unlawful combatants, and thus hold the same legal status that the US applies to Al Qaeda.”
The stage has been set for these American and/or Israeli mercs to be captured and tortured, and we would have virtually no moral ground to say a word about it.
That’s what happens when your leadership causes your country to spend over 200 years worth of “moral authority” in one single misadventure.
There does seem to be a backlash happening in Turkey, with an uprising of fundamentalism. It was a near-run thing in a recent court decision about whether or not to outlaw the ruling political party.
What we’re seeing here is a continuation of the Great Game, with the U.S. as proxy for Great Britain. In brief,
The modern version of the Great Game has the U.S. as inheritor of the British role, and for “Central Asia”, understand Georgia, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan in the north, as far east as Pakistan, and anchor another corner at the Suez canal in Egypt. And include Israel, Palestine, and Saudi Arabia. This has the strategic battle field since before 1900, and will be the historic battlefield as far into the future as oil remains important. “Southwest Asia” is a better descriptor, but it’s still the Great Game.
Bob in HI
Makes sense to me. Needs time to shred and erase the evidence.
More incompetent IT people and it will all be gone in four years.
With SuperCondi the Soviet Expert on the job, what can possibly go wrong?
Oddly enough, to get some perspective on the early days of “The Great Game,” read Kim by Rudyard Kipling.
Good point Everything that happens is always good for Bush. Everything Bush does is good for Israel like giving the Saudi’s Nuclear Reactor Technology when the Saudi’s are sooo much closer to Israel than Iran. Following Neocon circular logic is like untying the Gordian knot just cut it in two/declare it unrealistic and move on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot
If Bush avoids WW 3 and lets Georgia fall then the world will see that we can’t reward our friends and threaten our enemies, Israel has only one real friend.
Our moment of weakness has arrived Russia has exploited it. Israel won’t rest easy until we fix our problems or there is a real peace plan.
I’m not sure what will take longer?
This is just the warm up act…Israel is definitely in the midst of it, and Iran is the prize. This is not unrelated…by any stretch.
Did they cut a deal with Russia to ensure that Russia winds up in control of Georgian territory in return for a promise not to interfere with the pending attack on Iran (the further expansion of Eretz Israel)?
Would you bet against it?
Assume the worst.
This situation has been building for some time and is illustrative of the utter incompetence of GWB’s foreign policy. What is McCain saying his foreign policy will be if not a continuation of same. McCain has a lot of vulnerability in this area.
Listen to the last 20 minutes of the program. The whole Gardiner interview is interesting. I can’t vouch for the truth of what he sez, but he’s been following it closely.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/11/stream
Also interesting that I posted on an earlier thread, Levin sez that Russia promised to respond militarily if Georgia attacked Ossetia, so Saakashvili knew exactly what he was getting into.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..498709.ece
McCain is worse. Unlike Bush saying what do I do now, McCain would have the military on the border.
1,731 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Ian Welsh:
Great post…we’re in a tub a shit, aren’t we? It seems ta this ol’ scandanavian that the corporate oligarchy is now more powerful than the government of the United States, no matter what happens as a result of this crisis, the corporatists win and the people of the United Staes end up holdin’ the bag…and PAYIN’ for it!! Let’s be clear, I don’t think that these people have any intension of allowin’ an election in November.
If NATO breaks up over this, it’s exactly what the corporatists have wanted all along…I’m gettin’ more and more worried about the destruction of the military and the transfer of resources and equipment to Blackwater and the other corporate militias…these fascist monsters are not gunna go away after November, they’re too close ta winnin’ the whole thing….remember, a politically and economically weak United States can NOT face down the corporations so this is Darth Cheney’s world now…CHAOS, WAR, TERROR. Thanks Mrs. Pelosi, it only took ya two years ta kill 200 years of history.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS BATTLE WON’T END UNTIL WE WIN…THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE!!!
I did. That’s where I first learned about it.
Bob in HI
Does McCain say anything besides “i’m prepared and Obama is not.”?
The press never challenges his assertions.
Here’s something that is news to me.
Mr. Saakashvili has made reuniting the territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia with Georgia a centerpiece of his presidency.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08…..ref=slogin
No, but it’s time to ask why wrinkly, old white hair guy is qualified to be President.
Exactly… so what’s that mean?
We’re supposed to assume a combination of hubris and incompetence, just like EVERY inexplicable event in the United States over the past seven years. The narrative we are all supposed to swallow is a combination of hubris and incompetence. It’s all intentional. They are exceptionally competent, and control the entire narrative. Reality has been stood on its head.
It’s time to assume that everything you hear is the opposite of the truth.
Was this leader installed to set up this circumstance in order to use Georgia as nothing more than a bargaining chip dealt to Russia in return for the acquisition of Iran?
Ridiculous, right?
Don’t get caught attributing apparently stupid strategic maneuvers to incompetence. The game is being called at a level far above W’s pay grade.
With all the problems that Georgia has, sounds like he’s trying a diversionary tactic to put that at the top of the list. At least one of the items I’ve read on the subject today referred to Saakashvili as an ultranationalist. Never trust an extremist of any sort.
Obama statement now up at TPM.
Free to read and enjoy:
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2226
A rational, even-handed and informed response. Which is more than we’ll hear from either the White House or Foggy Bottom.
How long before Obama gets slammed for being young and naive? The talking points must be on their way to the Republic noise machine already.
Little Boots = Caligula you have to remember to explain the jokes once in a while
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caligula
Caligula’s father, Germanicus, was the adopted son of emperor Tiberius and one of Rome’s most beloved generals. The young Gaius earned his nickname, meaning ”little [soldier’s] boots”, while travelling with his father on military campaigns in Germania.
Hyperthyroidism
Some modern historians think that Caligula suffered from hyperthyroidism.[136] This diagnosis is mainly attributed to Caligula’s irritability and his ”stare” as described by Pliny the Elder.
[edit]
Holy Crap! is that what you were hinting at!
http://thyroid.about.com/od/ne…..a-Bush.htm
Neurological manifestations can include tremor, chorea, myopathy, and in some susceptible individuals (particularly of asian descent) periodic paralysis. An association between thyroid disease and myasthenia gravis has been recognized. The thyroid disease, in this condition, is autoimmune in nature and approximately 5% of patients with myasthenia gravis also have hyperthyroidism. Myasthenia gravis rarely improves after thyroid treatment and the relationship between the two entities is not well understood. Some very rare neurological manifestations that are dubiously associated with thyrotoxicosis are pseudotumor cerebri, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis and a Guillain-Barré-like syndrome.
I still have my mother’s copy, which she re-read every year, but thanks for thinking of posting the link! It’s a grand book, and the original movie, which I saw when I was about 8 or 9, was grand too. (It was filmed when I was 4, but I saw it later… I’m an old fart, but not quite THAT old!)
for good intentions paying the road to hell – see jeffery sachs.
bush isn’t the only american who suffers from the combination of ignorance and arrogance.
This is what happens when all the eggs laid by Reagan come home to roost. Soviet communism self destructed and was never defeated by the west as myth would have it. (Imperial) Russia predates communism. The right wing is still fighting the old war and is mistaken in pursuing it aggressively. In the meantime the economy is tanking precisely because of the same failure to clearly and rationally think about how things work.
Sorry my comment at 69 was suppose to be a reply to dakine01 at 28
Hey selise,
I just read Philip Short’s biogrpahy of Pol Pot, which argues that Pol Pot thought that only a radical rip from Cambodia’s feudal past would result in the desirable future. I thought maybe Jeffrey Sachs studied at Pol Pot’s feet.
lol, Change! that looks oh so familiar.
KO is on discussing the situation in Georgia now.
Keep those of us who are Olympics junkies posted… Please?
re the threat of nukes. damn. gardiner’s no idiot – but i fear putin and bush are.
i haven’t listened to democracy now! yet today. have no idea what’s going on in the world – just from one missing a couple of day’s news? sounds like i have a lot of catching up to do.
wow.
the think that blows my mind is that sachs goes around with bono and gets treated like the great humanitarian.
at least pol pot was recognized for what he was.
Whole Georgia thing blew up while I wasn’t watching. Today was cold & raining so I spent the whole day catching up.
think
thingI read faster than I listen — there’s a rush transcript link at #36.
Book from the 1900s are a real treasure. Lovely objects that are a pleasure to hold. Not the same experience to read the work on a screen, tho, I do appreciate the accessibility of the gutenberg archive.
Come on did Condi stop shoe shopping in New York when Katrina happened?
She pissed away her chance to be GOP VP today that day.
Condi works hard at what I don’t know she never seems to get anything done though she needs her vacation even though WW 3 might be happening.
Henry at least would have been on a plane already.
you don’t think clinton bears more responsibility for this than reagan?
Sorry, I don’t explain the jokes. They lose effectiveness if I have to explain them. If someone doesn’t understand the allusion, then they can use der google and edjamacate themselves.
when i listen i can at least do some chore around the house.
Condi is a perfect reflection of Bush.
ah…. well, lots to catch up on. anything you recommend i don’t miss (besides the democracy now! podcast?).
The Gutenberg archive is a treasure beyond words… particularly for folks who love to browse and read but don’t necessarily have either the money or the space to have all the books.
Ah! I live with a mostly apolitical animal who would get annoyed if subjected to such content! (He does, however, vote the right way…)
Links at 36.
Completely OT, but did you ever discover what your mystery squash/melon was?
I’m not saying that Russia should be kicked out of the G-8 but here are the 15 largest countries in the world wrt GDP in millions of dollars per the IMF. An asterick denotes a member of the G-8.
EU 16,830,100*
1. US 13,843,825*
2. Japan 4,383,762*
3. Germany 3,322,147*
4. China 3,250,827
5. UK 2,772,570*
6. France 2,560,255*
7. Italy 2,104,666*
8. Spain 1,438,959
9. Canada 1,432,140*
10. Brazil 1,313,590
11. Russia 1,289,582*
12. India 1,098,945
13. South Korea 957,053
14. Australia 908,826
15. Mexico 893,365
China, Spain, and Brazil have larger GDPs than Russia but aren’t members.
i’m a pretty lackadaisical house keeper – listening to good podcasts is a good way to trick myself into cleaning.
Yeah you would think that they were married or something.
Marion, Rachel and KO just had a discussion on McCain’s aggressive speech and they mentioned with what military. They also said that the American people are wiser after Iraq and can see through the bullsh*t, although they phrased it much more coherently. I don’t agree. Granted I live in the south and most folks down here didn’t realize there was a country named Georgia.
I grew up with little brother I had to explain everything, which I admit they sometimes found annoying.
Looking like it’s gonna be a watermelon but not quite definitive yet. My contractor assures me that, whatever it is, the rabbits will eat it on the morning of the day that I plan to harvest it.
Also OT, but must share. For dinner: venison stew made with onions, red wine, maple syrup, cinnamon, ginger, clove, mace. To die for. Comes from a little reciple book I picked up at a gift store: Recipes from a 17th C Kitchen.
i see glenn also has a podcast on the subject today.
Same here (living in Georgia), and thanks so much for the update. It’s appreciated.
Yeah what army do we have to send there all our spare troops are in Iraq.
So that leaves the air force and or Nukes.
My 99 in response to Marions 93.
Thanks.
Russia has nukes thats why they are there its prestige over having a big army Russia wants to be treated as a world leader hummoring the Russians was a better policy than trying to encircle them with anti missile systems.
Oh, my, YUM!!! I love venison if it’s prepared properly. Your friends are probably exactly correct about the watermelon… Hopefully it will be large enough to allow you to have a bite or two even after the evil squirrels have had their way with it!
thanks for the link, here’s the bit (in case i’m not the only person who hasn’t heard it yet):
maybe a G12 instead?
As I’ve said before. You can tell by W’s body language with Pootie at the Olympics…they made a deal. W gave Pootie Georgia in exchange for something…Iraq? Iran? Something. Pootie let W have his way with Iraq and Afghanistan already…not a peep out of him. Russia wants more access to the Black Sea. It’s all about oil. Oil. Oil.
Nothing will happen other than the government of Georgia being overthrown (and people will die and the country will be devastated, of course, but that is nothing new with these people).
W and Pootie are the same…hence W’s recognizing himself in Pooties eyes. Nato has zero power to help Georgia. McCain is insane, because he would take military action and we would then have to kiss our fat butts goodbye.
McCain is much more dangerous than even W.
“China, Spain, and Brazil have larger GDPs than Russia but aren’t members.”
I’m not surprised about China, but the size of the GDP of Spain and Brazil is a surprise for me.
Bob in HI
bernhard at moon of alabama has been covering the georgia situation pretty closely.
aaarrggh ! late to this thread but just read Obama’s statement
Ian
if you are still here, Obama left himself some wiggle room in his statement, but it pretty much flies in the face of your post, eg – Peacekeeping Forces ??? of course had he done anything other than condemn Russian agression it would give his opponent and huge and much needed talking point
would love to hear your response to it
Georgia isn’t a member of NATO. It was unlikely to become one with the situation in Ossetia and Abkhazia unresolved. So no, there was not going to be a NATO confrontation over Georgia. Nor are the Baltics and Poland in danger. They are members of NATO and the principal reason they are is because Russia is a lousy bullying neighbor. What these countries are doing tonight is thanking their lucky stars they are in NATO and/or the EU precisely because this is exactly the kind of behavior they expect from Russia. All the Russians have done is earn the undying enmity of the Georgians. In countries like Ukraine and some of the Central Asan republics, they are probably trying how to put more distance between themselves and Russia. The reason that Russia looks on all of its neighbors as enemies is because its policies invariably turn them into enemies. Russia’s aggression in Georgia simply reminds everyone that Russia has not really changed and has the same xenophobic policy that it has had for centuries. There are many ways of striking back at Russia over this. It all rather depends on how big a mess they make of things. They could be expelled from the G-8. Ukraine, which is a much bigger strategic player, if it wants it could be fast tracked into the NATO umbrella. We and the Europeans could announce a boycott of the 2010 winter games in Sochi. We could do some things in Central Asia. A lot of Russian gas sales are actually based on contracts they have with some of these states and which they then resell to the Europeans.
Bushco, Putin, Sarkozy, Berlusconi…..they are ALL Neocons. They are all working together for the New World Order, spoken of by Bush Sr. years ago. They are trading baseball cards…only they are trading real countries with real people in them.
They should all be arrested and sent to the Hague, because they’ve all been working together. This is world kabuki at the expense of millions of innocent people.
Spit.
hey LS,
Matt Welch, Editor of Reason Magazine has put together strings of McCrazy responses to foreign affairs questions put to him over the years. . . and it is truly frightening – it is the one thing he has been consistent on.
hell with SCOTUS, he has to be defeated to stave off nuclear winter
Times quoted Putin comparing shashkaavili to saddam today, presumably to justify a little regime change. I blame this all on shrub and his pnac buddies. That Russia could overrun Georgia with impunity flows directly from the aggressive unilateralism that Iraq set the precedent for. I hope bushco likes the back-to-the bad future world that they created.
are you proposing that we ratchet up the pressure on russia (holding them to a standard of international action that we refuse to adhere to)?
Hiya!!
Yeah…I think he’s just plain unintelligent in general. Freaky death wish…and he wants to take everybody with him. Even W is way smarter and more cunning than McBush.
evening pups
There you go….makes my case…tit for tat…and they were all smiles and hugs and cutsie expressions at the Olympics. W gave him the green light a long time ago.
Hey Wobbly…how was Brasil?
I had a difficult time supressing the gag reflex everytime he popped up on my screen. then I cam to my senses and switched over to Globo (non-american channel) just so I wouldn’t have to look at him
It was fanstatic. Got in lots of reading, sleeping, swimming, sunbathing and political/economic talk with locals. Thanks for asking
Sigh….that is one place I’d love to visit….ahhhh…the music….ahhhhh…
I encourage you to go one day. During off season and to the Northeastern part of the country. It is simultaneously beautiful and heartbreaking
I’m just trying to explore the possibilities. Empires and imperial wars are expensive as we have seen in Iraq. I think the Russians are in danger of overplaying their hand just as the Georgians did. Such actions have repercussions and I think Russia has traded a short term gain for long term destabilization of its borders and a revival of memories by many of why they distrusted it in the past. The Russian army isn’t the Soviet army. The Russian economy is not a world class economy. Subtract out energy just as you might for Saudi Arabia and there wouldn’t be much there. I think talk of a resurgent Russia if you look at the facts and figures is pretty much a myth. If they didn’t have thousands of nukes, they would be scrambling to hold on to a second tier position rather than masquerading as a first tier state.
That is the area where my friend is from…a really big city, but I don’t remember the name. She is one of the most beautiful people I’ve ever met…in every way!!!
Yeah, I’m gonna be watching this. To look for evidence of whether Putin is smarter than W or not. As misery loves company, I’m kinda hoping that Russia overplays its hand. But that would be dangerous too. Nothing good will come of this.
Salvador?
Maybe…..sounds like it.
thanks.
just my natural inclination not to want to play the power game unless there is good cause. as ian has outlined above, our actions have not been those of honest actor. we’ve already done plenty to harm russians and act the bully ourselves. and even if they are no longer the soviet union, i have no desire to provoke more unnecessary war.
your comment made just made me curious, as it only included things we could to continue to put pressure on russia without conceding anything ourselves. but again, i’m way behind on what’s going on so.
How much of human history has started out with a comment like this?
now, that we disagree on.
finally, something. *g*
Here’s a prescient article from 2006-
http://larison.org/2006/11/27/…..akashvili/
Ay, yi, yi.
(just off work, dropping by – epu’d elsewhere).
The media are as responsible for the death of our democratic republic as anyone. The founders knew it all depended on a free “press.” They assumed it would do its job, just like they assu;med Congress would “jealously guard its prerogatives” and prevent excess executive power.
I am depressed again. And scared — feeling too much like Cuban Missile Crisis. I’m out of superlatives of stupidity for the gang that’s “running” this country.
Anyone with half a brain could see this would happen…oh, wait….
Where in the world is Condie?
Prolly shopping
They sustained a long campaign against the Chechens with less of an economy even than they have now. Russians have something the US doesn’t have, a fundamental tenacity and a much greater willingness to just do it for as long as it takes. The economic numbers on Imperial Russia were abysmal much of the time, but it didn’t matter much except at key points. Georgia’s much too small to be one of those key points. It isn’t Afghanistan.
Could be, but if so, I’d put my money on the Russians, who’ve been playing this game a lot longer than we have, and against tougher odds.
Once again the U.S. has blood on its hands, in this case, for very overtly goading Georgia into taking the decision to launch an offensive, in brutal fashion no less, against tear-away provinces with the aim of assimilating same. So much for the efficiency of Dumbsfelds little portable armies, scattered to the nine vectors as they now are.
It is recommended that Americans engage in a massive tax strike as a way of putting down the Washington Junta (Congress as well as the Blight House).
No I think this anti-russia stuff predates Clinton, though there’s scarcely any difference between the republicans and clinton in foreign affairs and economic philosophies. Having said that clinton would not have been as extreme as the second bush. The problem fundamentally is thinking that there is a West that needs to be defended against what’s not west. What’s not west includes terrorists as well which is convenient and ignores that the biggest terrorist victims are in the East.
Russia sounds a lot like China in this respect. Only China has often been disrespected by Russia as well. As one Chinese friend put it: Russia makes friendly overtures toward China, then kisses Western ass and kicks China in the ass.
But the world alignment is changing, thanx in part to the preznit.