Comments on: Meet the “Good Americans” Who Made America Synonymous With Torture http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/ Firedoglake weblog Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:24:17 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Ian Welsh http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572790 Ian Welsh Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:55:48 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572790 <p>Refusal to judge is as great a sin as judging too often or too soon. Your logic works just as well with the torturer who says “the torture will occur with or without me, but I am a kinder torturer who kills and cripples less victims. I must continue torturing, it is the moral thing to do.”</p> <p>Exact same logic.</p> Refusal to judge is as great a sin as judging too often or too soon. Your logic works just as well with the torturer who says “the torture will occur with or without me, but I am a kinder torturer who kills and cripples less victims. I must continue torturing, it is the moral thing to do.”

Exact same logic.

]]> By: Mommybrain http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572727 Mommybrain Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:26:21 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572727 <p>Outstanding post, Ian.</p> Outstanding post, Ian.

]]> By: RevDeb http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572495 RevDeb Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:12:22 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572495 <p>Not going to judge without knowing all of the facts.</p> <p>Two weeks ago a guy entered one of our churches and shot people. Two died. The nets were all a twitter about it being a hate crime—the guy wrote about killing liberals and had books on his shelf by O’Rielly & M. Savage. It turns out that he had been to the church and even been involved with activities there years before when his ex was a member. Now his motives aren’t quite so crystal clear. Yes. shooting the people was absolutely and unequivocally wrong and he will be tried and punished. But we don’t yet know what really led up to his doing so.</p> <p>Every time something like that happens, I remind myself to stop jumping to conclusions without knowledge of the backstory.</p> <p>As for the Nazi enablers, you don’t need to go there with me. My father’s family’s home ghetto was wiped out by them. </p> <p>So Allred resigns in a huff, and the next one does, and the next one does until they get to a perfectly willing neocon in uniform who gladly takes on the case and lets the prosecution do everything they want to do. Hamdan hangs. What then?</p> <p>Allred and all involved will have to live with themselves and we will have to do what we can to make sure this kangaroo court gets dismantled and never happens again. Tragically, the damned dems aren’t doing squat as far as oversight and accountability. So we do what we have to do and work to change the system, futile or not.</p> <p> And Obama isn’t going to be the savior who comes in and magically turns it all around. There’s way too much $$ invested in the system by bad people that he has to “work with.”</p> <p>Damn I hate these people.</p> Not going to judge without knowing all of the facts.

Two weeks ago a guy entered one of our churches and shot people. Two died. The nets were all a twitter about it being a hate crime—the guy wrote about killing liberals and had books on his shelf by O’Rielly & M. Savage. It turns out that he had been to the church and even been involved with activities there years before when his ex was a member. Now his motives aren’t quite so crystal clear. Yes. shooting the people was absolutely and unequivocally wrong and he will be tried and punished. But we don’t yet know what really led up to his doing so.

Every time something like that happens, I remind myself to stop jumping to conclusions without knowledge of the backstory.

As for the Nazi enablers, you don’t need to go there with me. My father’s family’s home ghetto was wiped out by them.

So Allred resigns in a huff, and the next one does, and the next one does until they get to a perfectly willing neocon in uniform who gladly takes on the case and lets the prosecution do everything they want to do. Hamdan hangs. What then?

Allred and all involved will have to live with themselves and we will have to do what we can to make sure this kangaroo court gets dismantled and never happens again. Tragically, the damned dems aren’t doing squat as far as oversight and accountability. So we do what we have to do and work to change the system, futile or not.

And Obama isn’t going to be the savior who comes in and magically turns it all around. There’s way too much $$ invested in the system by bad people that he has to “work with.”

Damn I hate these people.

]]> By: serge http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572486 serge Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:59:18 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572486 <p>Hey, just wait until we find bin Laden’s housekeeper. And then, maybe, his dry cleaner…then we’ll show these terrists the might of the USA.</p> Hey, just wait until we find bin Laden’s housekeeper. And then, maybe, his dry cleaner…then we’ll show these terrists the might of the USA.

]]> By: Ian Welsh http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572424 Ian Welsh Fri, 08 Aug 2008 06:38:38 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572424 <p>People rise and fall to the level that is expected of them. When even moral leaders are making excuses for them, it is no wonder people feel like it’s ok to be complicit in torture and the destruction of basic human and civil rights. I can absolutely hear some Nazi judge making your argument, some Nazi weapon developer making that argument. I can hear them making it, because they did make it. If there are going to be secret policy, and torturers and people who try people based on evidence gained by torture, why they should be nice people, we shouldn’t leave torture enabling only to bad people.</p> People rise and fall to the level that is expected of them. When even moral leaders are making excuses for them, it is no wonder people feel like it’s ok to be complicit in torture and the destruction of basic human and civil rights. I can absolutely hear some Nazi judge making your argument, some Nazi weapon developer making that argument. I can hear them making it, because they did make it. If there are going to be secret policy, and torturers and people who try people based on evidence gained by torture, why they should be nice people, we shouldn’t leave torture enabling only to bad people.

]]> By: egregious http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572176 egregious Fri, 08 Aug 2008 04:34:00 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572176 <p>and it’s what is being immunized and buried by fisa legislation, Dems were aware of this, surveillance on normal Americans, stolen briefcases with social security numbers, total information</p> and it’s what is being immunized and buried by fisa legislation, Dems were aware of this, surveillance on normal Americans, stolen briefcases with social security numbers, total information

]]> By: egregious http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572167 egregious Fri, 08 Aug 2008 04:30:17 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572167 <p>which makes comey’s testimony all the more anguished, what was it that made the entire top tier at DoJ prepared to resign on principle? main core? permanent database of innocent Americans? they all grew up reading 1984</p> which makes comey’s testimony all the more anguished, what was it that made the entire top tier at DoJ prepared to resign on principle? main core? permanent database of innocent Americans? they all grew up reading 1984

]]> By: egregious http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572141 egregious Fri, 08 Aug 2008 04:16:04 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572141 <p>you raise an excellent general point which is to look carefully at data points where TPTB try to keep info from getting out. I’m thinking of risen and the chapter about giving nuke plans to iran, they had fits about that being revealed. if BBC thought it worthy of cutting out, instead of plastering all over page one, then that is news iphone</p> you raise an excellent general point which is to look carefully at data points where TPTB try to keep info from getting out. I’m thinking of risen and the chapter about giving nuke plans to iran, they had fits about that being revealed. if BBC thought it worthy of cutting out, instead of plastering all over page one, then that is news iphone

]]> By: Chacounne http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572123 Chacounne Fri, 08 Aug 2008 04:08:26 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572123 <p>Absolutely !!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p> <p>Keep up the fight.</p> <p> Hugs,<br /> Heather</p> Absolutely !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep up the fight.

Hugs,
Heather

]]> By: newtonusr http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572118 newtonusr Fri, 08 Aug 2008 04:06:57 +0000 http://firedoglake.com/2008/08/07/meet-the-good-americans-who-made-america-synonymous-with-torture/#comment-1572118 <p>I’m just hoping that this isn’t the irreversible trend for Western Democracies.</p> I’m just hoping that this isn’t the irreversible trend for Western Democracies.

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