When I read the details which have come out of the Hamdan and Padilla trials about how these two men were treated when in US custody, I don't think "America did this". America did this is far too bloodless. Specific men and a few women did this. Although the stain spreads over everyone who calls themselves American and those of your allies who often cooperated, everything that was done was done by specific people. They were not done by George Bush, they were not done by Cheney, they were done by American men and women.
So, when I read that, for example:
Hamdan's defense team later revealed that Banks testified that Hamdan, apparently under such threat, had begged interrogators not to rape his wife or kill his family
I don't think that America did it, though America did. I think that specific men did that. I read of, say Special Forces psychologist Col. Morgan Banks, and how he went to Afghanistan to use his SERE training, meant to help special forces resist terror, instead to set up interrogation. Instead to break men. I wonder how that happened, how a man who probably became a psychologist because he wanted to help people, became a monster. Oh, please, don't argue otherwise. I'm sure he's nice to his family. I'm sure he doesn't kick dogs. I'm sure he loves America. I'm sure he wanted to avenge 9/11. Nonetheless if he did what we have every reason to believe he did (of course, his testimony is secret), he's a monster.
Same thing with all the other interrogators, with the lone exception of the FBI interrogators, who were forbidden by John Ashcroft from engaging in torture. Ashcroft disgraced himself with Padilla, but even so, Ashcroft showed there were lines he wouldn't cross. And so, until he was replaced, one organization in the US didn't torture.
For 3 years, in other words, Ashcroft stopped the FBI from torturing. Think on that for a moment.
And then we're back at the trial. And there is a judge who agreed to work under these military tribunal rules. I am sure, at night, he tells himself that he had to, because if it was not done by him it would be done by someone worse than him. Maybe he's right, certainly the human rights observers have had little but good things to say about him. Still, he is a judge presiding at a trial where evidence obtained through torture is used; at a trial where the accused cannot face his accusers; the judge at a trial where hearsay evidence is allowed—the judge at a trial where even if Hamdan had been acquitted he would not be released. He's a show trial judge, in other words, presiding over what everyone knows is a travesty of justice. He has loaned his name, Keith Allred, to this. He treated it seriously, as if it was worthy of his respect. He did not refuse to participate. And perhaps he's right. Perhaps good men must participate in evil that it might be slightly less evil, and perhaps he is that good man, that good American, who makes a mockery of justice less harsh than it might be by participating.
This is the argument that some of the generals leading Vietnam made, that many will make about Iraq. "I knew it was wrong, a mistake, and immoral to boot. But if evil be done, better it be done by me that I might try and limit the damage, then that it be done by those foolish or fallen enough to believe it was actually the right thing to do." Perhaps they are right, perhaps damning themselves is what they had to do. But I do not think that they can be other than damned, that their sacrifice is anything but their honor. They have not just looked into the Abyss, they have walked into it. And the price is, can only be, a piece of their soul. For us to respect their decision, indeed, requires that we see the evil they have done.
The same is true of the prosecutors. The same is true of "square jawed, calm and with a dry sense of humor" Robert McFadden, a special investigator with the Navy.
I find myself with some sympathy for these men. Still I find that I cannot but think that they have failed their first duty, which is not to their superiors, not to the President, but to the US constitution and what it stands for. I find that they have failed their basic duty to humanity.
I find that they are complicit in torture, in indefinite detention. I find that they have deliberately aided the destruction of justice, have aided the Bush administration in rolling back legal rights a full millenium, or more.
The "I was just following orders" was not acceptable to us in Nuremburg. It cannot be acceptable now. Yes, there are consequences to not following orders. But it's the choices we make that define us. If following orders is more important to you than not being involved in torture, indefinite detention, the right of the accused to see the evidence against them—then you have made a statement about who you are.
And cooperation is needed by men like George Bush. It can be active cooperation, like that of the torturers, judge and prosecutors. It can be passive cooperation, as when "impeachment is off the table", but cooperation is needed.
Still, one person can sometimes make a difference. John Ashcroft, immensely flawed as he is, made a difference. Comey made a difference. Fitzgerald made a difference.
Many men, there in Guantanamo, make Cheney and Bush's policies possible through their cooperation. They do not resign, do not protest, do not refuse, at least, to actively cooperate. They are the men who made Bush's America possible. Without men like them, he could have done nothing.
And so I really do wonder what the price of honor, integrity and morality is?
And I hope they were paid that price. A man who sells his soul should get his reward.
One and all, whether they were those who broke Hamdan by threatening to rape his wife and kill his family, they are complicit in that. One and all, whether they tortured anyone, they are complicit in torture.
They are the men who made George Bush's America.
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bush loses the base if we can get this viral;
thanx for the post ian, a troublesome read to be sure
can we possibly regain our intgrity without bringing these criminals to the international bar of justice?
no
it is the only way we can begin the repair
Jus Cogens!
Now, will they let him go in 5 mos…?
Here’s the Huffpo on it…
Thank you for this important analysis, Ian. As we learn more about the wrongs perpetuated on us by this administration, we also observe people who are brave enough to begin withholding their participation and their consent.
My sense about this judge, and it is admittedly uninformed, is that someone who could say to Hamdan that he hopefully would be home soon with wife and children “inshallah” [God willing] is a person who is not a monster. And the inshallah is a shout out to the Arab world that people on the inside are doing the best they can.
If Christians had any sense of christianity, should be this Sunday’s sermon, across the land.
Thanks, Ian.
I used to wonder: how could the German people, apparently, just stand by while terrible evil was done.
Now, I know.
I often think of MLK’s words, “It is not what the ‘bad’ people do, it is what the ‘good’ people do not do.”
When ‘this’ is over, if ever it is, our country must take moral stock of itself and consider both its hypocracy and what ‘principles’ it truly embraces.
Thanks, Ian, for not looking away …
Shrub’s WH has it’s own interrogation room…! F*cking incredible…!
And the crimes continue apace, and the news of the crimes continues apace, and it goes and goes. When it stops, nobody knows.
Thank you, Ian.
Beautifully written post.
FunnyD
And yet he ruled to allow evidence taken under torture. He ruled to keep a pile of evidence secret. He ruled to allow hearsay evidence. He sentenced a man based on a crime classification which did not exist when that man was taken into custody.
The fact that he feels bad when he pulls the trigger, that he tries to make it as painless as possible, does not change the fact that he’s a judge in a kangaroo court.
Trying to mitigate the worst of a bad system, does not mean he is not complicit in completely violating all the canons of Western justice. Those are his rulings. He made them. He chose not to resign, but to stay on and run the court.
Respect for him includes allowing him the responsibility for his actions. Both the good, and the bad. He’s not some 19 year old kid. He knew.
Part of the reason the Bush junta is afraid to release detainees is that if they didn’t want to kill Americans before, they surely want to now.
If only Hamdan is allowed to go home someday.
Just an update from downstairs — 80% reporting:
Steve Cohen* (D / Inc.) 42,664 79%
Nikki Tinker (D) 10,189 19%
Joe Towns, Jr. (D) 808 1%
James Gregory (D) 164 0%
Isaac Richmond (D) 160 0%
Great and very sad post Ian.
A lot of truth to that, unfortunately. Some have been released, weren’t members of AQ, immediately go out and join so they can get revenge. Wonderful. Just wonderful.
To the extent the place existed at all, it should have been a deprogramming/reeducation camp. Not a torture camp.
Since when do Christians have anything to do with Christianity. If Christ were to come he’d be in Guantanamo
When shall the ‘better angels’ of ‘the people’ reveal themselves that we may understand what we have allowed to be done in our name.
CTut, this is an appalling thing you have shared …
Bu$h Co MUST be brought to account or our honor is besmirched, hell! our ‘honor’ no longer exists, and we cannot reclaim it without looking into our own souls and DEMANDING, insisting upon ‘consequence’.
We cannot wait a comfortable generation or so to confront our perfidy towards humanity.
Let there be no politician who does not understand this. Now!
Hamdan was a driver, not a planner. He drove where he was told, when he was told, with whomever he was told to take along. For this, the US government prosecutors argued forcefully to have him put to death.
I wonder how this argument sounded to the US and allied interrogators, the guards, and the judges. Down the road, the shoe may well be on the other foot . . .
We were just judging those whom we were told to judge, under the rules provided for us by others.
We were just guarding those whom we were told to guard, in the places and under the conditions we were given.
We were just questioning those whom we were told to question, using the techniques we were told to use.
We were just drivers, not planners.
The US government just argued that even a driver for a terrorist participates in the execution of terrorism, and should be just as liable in court for that participation as the top planners.
I can’t imagine how any of the judges, guards, and interrogators could listen to the government make that argument, and *not* wonder whether someone would be saying the same things years from now — about them.
Thank you, Ian. That’s all I can say.
No one could have anticipated . . .
In a few short years, I’m comin’ a 70-year-old man.
So, how do I say this?
Ian, I love your brain.
Your insight continues to enlighten me; eventhough my years-long work in the MSM lead me to believe I was on top of everything.
jaxx
Allred’s decision that the count of materially aiding terrorism was permitted is shredded by Kevin Heller. Via Marty Lederman, where the resident winger is unable to provide an answer.
Your second sentence I agree with.
Your first, on the other hand, I take exception to.
I should have mentioned that the legal question Judge Allred was addressing is whether the charge of materially aiding terrorism is an ex post facto law.
Almost 2 years ago Scott Horton wrote a piece on Balkinization that haunted me then and has stayed with me since, When Lawyers are War Criminals. I’d not heard of Horton then and bookmarked the post. Been back to it many times since.
Commander Swift is one of those quiet heros doing his job with honor. As for the judge, both Ian and egregious are right I think. He could have done a lot more to show justice being done and yet the fascists running the govt. would probably have somehow “found him to be unable to continue to preside” because of some cooked up reason and an even worse monster would have taken over.
It all sucks. Will we ever be able to clean up this mess and become who we thought we were?
Yup! Kudos to Swift!
And what of the US planners who decievedus and devised the heinous place we now find ourselves in
Wonderfully written post, Ian.
And yet he ruled to allow evidence taken under torture.
I believe that he *said* he was disallowing evidence obtained via torture, but allowing “coerced” testimony. How and where he drew that line, who
knowscares?Legal sophistry at its absolute worst. For the most part, the rules of evidence are pretty straight-forward and common-sensical, but then so is the prohibition on ex-post facto laws.
Rule of law my ass.
What you get is: “Osama Driver Tried At Gitmo May be Freed In Six Months”
Yahoo front page right now.
Yes, if they did.
*sigh*
Thank you Peterr. Me, too.
Let’s not lump.
Very interesting piece. I didn’t know that background.
Hey, jayt, how’d the interview go?
First was an overgeneralization
Hamdan was a driver, not a planner.
He needed a job. Period. His mistake was to work for a group of crazies that we don’t favor, as opposed to working for some other group of crazies currently, or at least at the operative time, that the Bushies thought were okey-dokey.
ratfood called it, last thread.
He was only kidding, but said it was just a matter of time.
Grrrr.
Bart does like to make a fool of himself…! ;-)
and where is that picture of your gorguosity?
Here’s the actual Yahoo Headline: Jury Makes bin Laden’s driver eligible for release in five months
See, there is something inherently wrong with jury trials. If the state could only fry everyone without the hassle of a trial and a jury…and those horrible TRIAL LAWYERS. /s
You’re a good man, Mike.
And of course, Scott Horton weighs in on this subject as well. Ian, you might want to read what he has to say.
As I speculated above, so does Horton:
can anyone imagine the indignation if bush’s driver is tried for war crimes abroad for driving our president around?
Never mind, demi bought me too many beers.
I was thinking, all the folks responsible for planning and implementing these policies have received a combined total of THOUSANDS of years of education. This was the best they could come up with?
I don’t know if the concept of “Western Civilization” is a theory or a literary creation. If the former, it has been disproved, if the latter, a work of fiction.
I’m not even sure he might not have been everything the prosecution claimed. But they didn’t prove it, even under their tilted rules. And under normal laws there would be no case against him at all. We’ve come a long way from “better 10 guilty men go free than one innocent be imprisoned”, now it’s more like the reverse.
Aye, that’s a decision. When do you say “not in my name, even at the cost of my career?”
RevDeb,
You are spot on about Commander Swift. It will be a tough road back to the America that I knew prior to Bush’s appointment. We also learned today that the White House abused a legal alien in a room in the White House. That is just further evidence of how far down Bush has dragged this country.
S’okay, honey, I’ll drive ya home. :)
Bart is annoying. He thinks if he can find a way to twist words to get the result he wants, he has created a compelling argument. This is the result of years of wingers on courts: linguistic jurisprudence.
Yes, jayt. Gorgeousity STAT.
Yep.
Did you see the video of B Bhutto wherein she said that bin Laden is dead? The BBC had edited that part out, but the original was saved.
Thanks but you need to give hackworth @ 31 another read. Not the same thing.
Hey, jayt, how’d the interview go?
Gack - to say that I was under-whelmed would be an under-statement.
But I looked *great*!
Ha!
Thanky shweety, I wouldn’t be in thish shtate if is wushn’t fer George fucing Booosh.
and where is that picture of your gorguosity?
I can’t even remember how I managed to get an older picture onto Facebook. It was taken with my cell phone, and I forget everything else after that.
It’s kinda like gravity - I may figure something out for a minute or two, but then I fall back into my natural Luddite state. *g*
Right.
And even that, the US prosecutors thought was worthy of the death penalty.
I suppose the prosecutors can’t conceive of anyone ever saying that their participation in a system that not only permitted torture but allowed these very same prosecutors to profited from that torture would be worthy of the same punishment.
One of these days, though, they may wake up and realize they are damned by their own words.
I made my Emily Latella for that @ 45. *g*
What we don’t see is all the people who did throw themselves in front of the tanks. There could have been a lot more trials by now, have to believe there was severe pressure to convict people.
So it’s not a gig you want after all?
Oh gosh - blushing
You know, come to think of it, maybe we should buy stock in Coffee, ’cause whatever, we’re going to need some serious sobering starting next year.
Amen! And the Jews on Saturday and the Muslims tomorrow.
You know it. Show trials = pablum for the masses. Especially pre-election. Also watch oil prices drop all the way to November based on “Decreased US Demand”.
I understand. These (text) field sobriety tests can be tough.
I did not. Though Bhutto’s not someone I trusted much. A friend described her to me before her death (he had met her a number of times) as “the most beautiful reactionary in the world).
The old pope, John Paul, clocked in at #2 in the day.
weighing the cost of career is part of the equation. Weighing the cost to the defendant if a worse stooge took over the case is another. Hard hard decisions. No easy answers.
Forward to 2:15 to hear Bhutto say that bin laden was murdered:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnychOXj9Tg
It’s easier to say “I’ve got to stay, because whoever comes next will be worse.” Enough people do that, and everything moves smooth.
So it’s not a gig you want after all?
Nah. How in the world does a company have you come in, ask you to train for three months, with no salary, get a couple of new licenses (insurance - life & health)(securities - Series 7), and then to work on commission? Oh yeah, no pre-qualified leads, or any other type of leads for that matter - you’re on your own there. But they *will* pick up the cost of the licenses. Mighty big of ‘em.
Before I forget, the company was Mass Mutual, rated AAA by Standard & Poors (hey, if I’m gonna trash a place, I’m also gonna name them right out in public).
If I want to pursue this “opportunity”, I’ve still got three more rounds of interviews to do. I’m pretty damned sure my schedule is booked for whatever days those might be.
feh.
(((jayt)))
beautiful? or Reactionary?
We had a few other choice words for him in my house.
She paid for it. Another casualty of Dubya and Condi’s democratic elections are the one-size-fits-all solution for all the world’s ills including the ones we created theory.
Thanks Ian for the Post! Those words needed saying and those who enabled these atrocities need to be atoned for. Bush heads the list but it goes all the way down to the lowest ranks who DID Their DUTY!!
This is not the conduct of the greatest generation this is the conduct of those who would destroy all that this country and Constitution have stood for these many years.
i forgot my manners again… wonderfully written post ian. thank you.
He was very handsome and very reactionary. Unlike Ratzinger he didn’t get a lot of the blame, because he used tools like Ratzinger to do his dirty work. In particular his destruction of liberation theology makes me ill and the Catholic church is now reaping the rewards of that as Protestant church’s eat their lunch because they don’t have enough priests in Latin America. He also ensured Ratzinger’s elevation by changing the rules of how Pope’s are elected, under the old rules Ratzi wouldn’t have gotten in.
Not a fan. Not a fan at all. As for Ratzinger, unfortunately I doubt God is keen for his company, so we’ll probably be stuck with him for longer than I’d like.
It seems Horton comes to the conclusion that the verdict was correct but as shown above the “laws” under which he was convicted did not exist until well after he was arrested. This is ex post facto
watertiger upstairs
Didja ask ‘em to kiss it?
Really! How awful. Something better is around the corner.
I still don’t think it’s that easy. I remember a long long talk I had with a former parishioner who worked for Raytheon. She was an engineer who worked on the glassification of nuclear waste. This was about 10 years ago before the really bad guys were in power but lots going on that we weren’t aware of. The debate was over leaving because it was a company that did such bad things or staying and trying to somehow work on changing the culture and ethics of the place. She stayed and actually made a difference in her unit.
I discovered through the process of working with her that as much as we’d like to remain pure and distant from the institutions we revile, it is important that we do not leave them devoid of liberals and with no one with the kind of values and conscience we bring to the environment. Therefore it was important for me to be supportive of those in my flock who find themselves in that situation. Can’t change the culture from the outside.
I concur, thank-you, Ian.
Hi, Suzanne. Please forgive the piggyback (ratback).
Joke ‘em. You can do better!
Don’t need to convince me Ian. We popped open a bottle of bubbly at his demise. He did more damage than can ever be documented—and the flock adored him, while not exactly doing what he told them to do in many cases. He single handedly managed to undo just about everything good that John 23 had done. Kind of like the neocons undoing the New Deal.
True to a point, but if we were talking about a woman who was being beaten by her husband, we wouldn’t be talking about supporting the culture of marriage — we’d be talking about how to help this woman find a place of safety and how to get the husband arrested and taken into custody.
Sometimes, the best way — or even the only way — to effect change comes from the outside. Especially when those in charge want to keep what’s going on in-house and secret.
and those “laws” do not constitute war crimes —at least not the one that Hamdan was convicted of—therefore do not call for the kinds of military tribunals that are being perpetrated on the detainees.
I’m pretty sure I didn’t say it’s easy. But it was harder for Hamdan and for the 90+ people who died in US custody, many of them probably due to torture.
I hear what you’re saying, but the question is when you become too far complicit. When, in seeking to make it better, have you done far more harm than you do good? When, in seeking to make it better, have you helped harm occur?
Your parishioner may well have made the right choice. So may Allred (though I’m not so sure about that.) But being moral adults, both of them are also defined by the evil they have done.
From the top to the bottom a lot of people refused. From the top to bottom, including people like Daschle and Pelosi, many more didn’t refuse.
Greatest generation or greediest generation
Exactly
I don’t find that example an equivalent.
Do we want the entire military to be populated by fundamentalists, or all of the thousands and thousands of companies that contract to them? Do we want all of the Military Industrial/Intelligence Complex to be owned and operated by wing nuts with no one of conscience working within to —in whatever way—not let the excesses go wild while the administration gives them the green light to do just that?
Without an external system of checks and balances, which we do not have at the moment, I want to have liberals working within the system in any way possible to at least try to keep them honest. It ain’t easy but it’s where we’re at right now.
As for Allred, unless a whole lot more of the legal brass were willing to walk out with him and really put a monkey wrench in the system, I have a hard time coming down really hard on him for doing what he did.
All that said, not being in on the conversations he was having with his own conscience, it’s hard for me to judge.
Remember it is not how you feel that counts. It is how you look, baby.
Ian,
As a fellow Canuck, I have to say that I included Canadians in that number, because we haven’t stood up nearly enough and told our Prime Minister that we demand that he stand up and demand Omar Khadr’s return.
Heartsick at the depths to which the US and Canada have sunk,
Heather
Hey Heather.
We would have spared you the Neocons if it was within our power. I promise.
Nice to see you.
Good to see you too, Newtonusr :)
Well, with any luck we can kick them to the curb when Harper calls the election, or at least the worst of them.
Hugs,
Heather
I’m just hoping that this isn’t the irreversible trend for Western Democracies.
Absolutely !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keep up the fight.
Hugs,
Heather
you raise an excellent general point which is to look carefully at data points where TPTB try to keep info from getting out. I’m thinking of risen and the chapter about giving nuke plans to iran, they had fits about that being revealed. if BBC thought it worthy of cutting out, instead of plastering all over page one, then that is news iphone
which makes comey’s testimony all the more anguished, what was it that made the entire top tier at DoJ prepared to resign on principle? main core? permanent database of innocent Americans? they all grew up reading 1984
and it’s what is being immunized and buried by fisa legislation, Dems were aware of this, surveillance on normal Americans, stolen briefcases with social security numbers, total information
People rise and fall to the level that is expected of them. When even moral leaders are making excuses for them, it is no wonder people feel like it’s ok to be complicit in torture and the destruction of basic human and civil rights. I can absolutely hear some Nazi judge making your argument, some Nazi weapon developer making that argument. I can hear them making it, because they did make it. If there are going to be secret policy, and torturers and people who try people based on evidence gained by torture, why they should be nice people, we shouldn’t leave torture enabling only to bad people.
Hey, just wait until we find bin Laden’s housekeeper. And then, maybe, his dry cleaner…then we’ll show these terrists the might of the USA.
Not going to judge without knowing all of the facts.
Two weeks ago a guy entered one of our churches and shot people. Two died. The nets were all a twitter about it being a hate crime—the guy wrote about killing liberals and had books on his shelf by O’Rielly & M. Savage. It turns out that he had been to the church and even been involved with activities there years before when his ex was a member. Now his motives aren’t quite so crystal clear. Yes. shooting the people was absolutely and unequivocally wrong and he will be tried and punished. But we don’t yet know what really led up to his doing so.
Every time something like that happens, I remind myself to stop jumping to conclusions without knowledge of the backstory.
As for the Nazi enablers, you don’t need to go there with me. My father’s family’s home ghetto was wiped out by them.
So Allred resigns in a huff, and the next one does, and the next one does until they get to a perfectly willing neocon in uniform who gladly takes on the case and lets the prosecution do everything they want to do. Hamdan hangs. What then?
Allred and all involved will have to live with themselves and we will have to do what we can to make sure this kangaroo court gets dismantled and never happens again. Tragically, the damned dems aren’t doing squat as far as oversight and accountability. So we do what we have to do and work to change the system, futile or not.
And Obama isn’t going to be the savior who comes in and magically turns it all around. There’s way too much $$ invested in the system by bad people that he has to “work with.”
Damn I hate these people.
Outstanding post, Ian.