Did any of you go to those Obama grassroots platform parties?
I went to meeting last week in New York sponsored by a lawyers group. Some pretty heavy hitters there, including the former head of the NY chapter of the ACLU and partners at big name-brand law firms. They had two round tables: one on regulatory matters and the other on the “rule of law.” They met separately and then shared their consensus at a wrapup session at the end.
I went to the roundtable on the rule of law.
Betcha saw that one coming a mile away, eh? OK, OK so I’m predictable. What Littleprop calls boring predictability, I like to think of as comforting reliability. I know what I like, and I like the rule of law.
So, there was this proposal put forward at the rule of law roundtable to form a “Church Commission”-like body to investigate allegations of criminal conduct by the Bush administration.
If the commission found evidence of criminal wrongdoing, then -- as with ordinary criminal investigations -- a decision could be made about referring one or more cases for prosecution. Also at that point decisions could be made about whether to have DOJ prosecute or create some kind of special prosecutor to handle the matters. That’s the system I learned. Investigation -- following the facts and the law wherever they may lead -- first, followed by charging decisions, not the other way around.
Though most of the lawyers at the roundtable seemed to think ANY notion of accountability was radical and dangerous and would surely cripple Obama in the general election, lo and behold, I see that Salon has this trial balloon on its website:
[B]ehind the scenes, a slate of foreign policy and human rights experts with various degrees of connections to the Obama campaign, some of them likely to occupy positions of authority in an Obama administration, have begun to discuss that very issue, and in great detail. What they're likely to recommend to Obama, should he become president, won't fulfill the dreams of those who've hoped for immediate criminal accountability for Bush administration officials.
Members and advisors of the administration-in-waiting have formed largely informal working groups to take up a whole host of issues related to the Bush administration's legacy, like what to do about the Guantánamo detainees. While they have not been asked to develop a formal recommendation for Obama on the question of criminal accountability for torture, those who are weighing the issue, a group that includes some of the 300 people the New York Times recently described as Obama's "mini State Department," are moving toward consensus on some key points. Specifically, don't hold your breath waiting for Dick Cheney to be frog-marched into federal court. Prosecution of any officials, if it were to occur, would probably not occur during Obama's first term. Instead, we may well see a congressionally empowered commission that would seek testimony from witnesses in search of the truth about what occurred.
--snip—
But the avenues of investigation being discussed don't necessarily rule out at least an attempt at prosecuting Bush officials at some later date. The nonpartisan presidential commission that Malinowski and other people involved in the discussions are advocating would have considerable power, granted by Congress, to force cooperation. The commission would ultimately deliver recommendations to the president that would include, among other things, whether or not Cheney deserves that walk up the courthouse steps.The first order of business, however, would be learning the truth. "I think a lot of us feel that the American people are entitled to the whole truth," said another person who knows about the discussions. "The American people are entitled to [an investigation] from an official body that has access to the classified documents that makes as much public as it can," that person added.
The commission would focus strictly on detention, torture and extraordinary rendition, or the practice of spiriting detainees to a third country for abusive interrogations.
--snip—
Instead of offering a blanket amnesty, the fact-finding commission would delay any decisions on whether or not to attempt to prosecute any Bush administration officials for their transgressions. Given the time it would take for a commission to do its work, any such decision would probably not take place till Obama's second term. That would be in accord with what Obama said in April, in what seems to be his lone statement on the issue of accountability, about not wanting his first term to be taken up by what critics would try to characterize as political retribution.
"Something like this would be unprecedented in the American experience and I think it would be absolutely necessary," Kenneth Kitts, author of "Presidential Commissions and National Security: The Politics of Damage Control," said when informed of the rough plans for the commission. "We've had panels that have looked at scandals. We've had panels that have looked at intractable political problems," said Kitts, a political science professor at South Carolina's Francis Marion University. "But nothing in terms of looking at an issue that has this array of legal, moral and even spiritual questions attached to it."
[emphasis mine]
So, did the idea discussed at the roundtable in NYC make its way up the food chain? Or it this a case of several minds thinking alike?
All I can tell you is this seems VERY doable. Fair. Methodical. Logical. No rush to judgment. No cart before horse.
And since the Salon article appears to be a trial balloon let's see if we can give the concept some support. If you like the idea, it’s letter to the editor time. It’s Obama website blog time. It’s let us know on this thread time. If you like the idea, let’s get the word out.
graphic from vitualis flickr creative commons
[See also Marcy's earlier post on this.]
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But .. but .. but .. Cass Sunstein said we can’t be having any of that!!! it wouldn’t be very post-partisan of us
Hi LHP
LHP, you bring us some kind of hope. Writing LTE now.
Loosehead! Truth Squad!
That’s it?
Over 450 recorded scandals during the Bush administration, (so far) and that is all?
I have heard the old saw about the wheels of justice grinding slowly, yet exceedingly fine, personally, I want a turbo powered wood chipper at this point.
Just my opinion, YMMV.
Loves ya LHP!
so wouldn’t the findings be mute if the president pardoned himself and all concerned pre emptively?
At least, John Dean had it right on KO, tonite… Prosecute the lot…!
Just to be on the safe side, why not house all the Bushies at Gitmo until we get around to charging them?
Moot, perris… I wonder if it could take on all 450 scandals… Does it have the same industrial strength as the infamous ‘Pixie Dust’…?
No.
I thought a truth commission is where you give government officials a chance to confess to all of their crimes as government officials in exchange for amnesty from our government.
Foreign governments might not respect an American Amnesty if you go on their soil. The thing is that you have to confess to everything or the deal is off.
Since their are so many people talking its hard to get everyone on the ame page for a story.
This Truth Deal however seems like Gerald Fords pardon of Nixon say hello to one term Obama.
I love it. So who would lead this commission? Someone outside of Congress, or if it would be within congress, who might it likely be?
You know, Cass Sunstein’s claim to fame is that he is the ”most cited” law prof., Not the most correct. Actually, at this point John Yoo may have passed him by.
You can get cited a whole bunch if you develop a talent for saying something controversial in a sufficiently footnoted way, such that everybody and their brother feels the need to refute you.
Not that I’m sayin’s that how Sunstein did it nor nuthin’. But the academia system CAN be gamed.
obama is a triangulator, he is gonna find some way to avoid holding these criminals to account
Yeah 450 and everything gets swept under the rug? War Crimes, Torture, War Profiteering, lying about WMD, thats a lot of crime to ignore.
yep yep yep
If that happens then he is Gerald Ford. Cripes America won’t see another African American President for 20 years if that happens.
Prosecute the lot…!
There’s a whole lot of ‘em in that lot…
for this to work it would have to be nonpartisan (as stated in lhp’s post) - not bipartisan. because i don’t know how to get past the problem that apparently members of the leadership of both parties are involved - why would a congress of Ds and Rs agree to an investigation that could reveal their own wrong doing?
any ideas on this lhp?
i do NOT want another iran-contra or 911 type commission that seemed more concerned with concealment than honest revelation.
As Dean pointed out; nobody died from Nixon’s impeachment charge offenses, likewise, Clinton’s… These fuckers killed hundreds of thousands…!
And how would the statute of limitations apply to the crimes this administration has committed?
You’re absolutely right. Best to ship them off to The Hague and be done with it.
Even if Little Boots attempted to issue blanket pardons for his entire administration (as has been done at the state level), many of those pardoned are lawyers so actions could still be taken to get them dis-barred.
And maybe it would be possible to actually do some legislating that would ban those pardoned, who are then shown by an investigation to have broken the law, from ever holding office in future administrations.
IANAL and I’m sure SCOTUS would rush quickly to knock it down but it would still force them into a defense of the indefensible.
Though most of the lawyers at the roundtable seemed to think ANY notion of accountability was radical and dangerous and would surely cripple Obama in the general election
Gerald Ford was crippled by pardoning Nixon all of his moderate cred went away any hope of Lefty cred gone, plus the hard Right never liked him is this the history Obama wants to repeat.
I have to start thinking of immigrating.
450 scandals?
does someone have a list longer than hugh’s?
Busted, have I told you the story about the sculpture in St. Andrews Plaza? It is a bright red series of interconnecting discs that look like gears. The real name of the sculpture is “Infinity”, but when new AUSAs would start at SDNY many would ask about it.
A mild form of hazing/prank would be to tell them it was a kinetic sculpture called the ‘wheels of justice” and that it moves so slowly it was not perceptible to the human eye. One AUSA went so far as to put a chalk mark on it to see if he could measure the movement–if you are reading, you know who you are and, yes, you were busted!
Point being, and why I liked that particular prank. Justice, real justice–not revenge, not vigilantism, not retributon, JUSTICE moves at its own frustratingly slow pace–which helps us to avoid punishment of the innocent.
If only Bushco understood that before they started calling thousands of of people “enemy combatants” and slapped them in hell holes
Yep Murder Charges
This must be done. The power of truth may be the only thing to save us and restore not only respect in the world, but a semblance of trust and direction at home. The word must go out with the kind of public voice that will pull Obama along, not because he wants an outing, but because the truth must be told.
Right now the TX Democratic Party has launched a petition going after Karl Rove, who happens to be doing campaigning in TX for the lousy Repubs. Nothing like some concerted action.
works for me.
clinton wasn’t charged for the crimes that killed people. personally, i’d like to see him in the hague too.
No they wouldn’t be moot if the president pre-emptively pardoned. We want TRUTH. Pardoned folk won’t have any 5th amendment privilege left. BAYABY they GOTS to testify! Or else they go to jail. If they lie and get caught they go to jail.
I think every solder should sue Bush and Cheney personally for lying them into a war.
Rwanda?
Digg this
i think this could work if we put lhp in charge. that is key.
Well, I have a wish list ……
Perris. he will be resposive to public pressure. Hence, the need for the rest of this to gin up public pressure.
iraq sanctions for sure. probably bombing serbia.
but for an impartial investigation and a fair trial. that is all i want.
I listened to a long lecture by Bugliosi on his case against Bush (on Bookd TV on CSPAN over the weekend, it should be archived there) and his case for pursuing this in the criminal courts…I think he has a good point. There is no statute of limitations for murder, which is what his particular case is based upon. The word murder makes my skin crawl, but the guy has a point…I think his book is worth a read. He has won 105 out of 106 cases that he prosecuted. He knows his stuff. How to use what he knows in a constructive way to nail these people somehow is pretty intriguing. The think about Bugliosi is his focus. He is very, very focused and his case is precise and narrow…no doubt that the revelations from Susskind will add to his case. JMHO
well, he certainly won’t be moved to act if there is no public pressure. up to us to do what we can.
There are a few slam dunks we can nail Bush for quick enough to hold him in jail until we investigate the rest right now people will lose faith in the system if justice does not move quick.
Or Bush will become another Augusto Pinochet waiting to die before he serves time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet
Either government moves quick or it won’t move at all in a case involving someone so powerful.
Bugliosi pointed out that Pinochet was nailed years later.
[from the Salon piece]
????That guy has been reading the wrong blogs. ; ]
As a reformed lawyer, I find that really depressing.
But, your post gives me some hope.
Wish I could stay and follow up - my computer’s dead (I’m at work, breaking the rules). With luck it will be resuscitated in the next 2 days and I’ll get down writing the LTE’s and such. thanks for the hope and balloons, lhp and all y’all!
You will know from the makeup of the panel whether or not it will work. The minute I saw that Jamie Gorelick was on the 9-11 Commisssion, I and everybody I knew in law enforcement with whom I communicated on the subject, had the same reaction–it’s gonna be a whitewash. Which was a damn shame, because we had some high hopes up until then.. I think that many of the other Commission members came on the Commission thinking they were going to do a real job–they got sandbagged
Ya know I love ya, I know you are right, I am just furious about all of the things that are going to get swept under the rug.
Time doesn’t wound all heels.
I think the Oil for Food program was more or less pushed by others, and the Northern and Southern ‘No-Fly’ zones saved more lives than it caused… The marsh Arabs and the Kurds were targeted heavily by Saddam’s Air Force…
I remember in the blogs when impeachment was first brought up…people had to get used to the word..the idea….because it brought up so many negative feelings….
Bushco is a bit insulated because of this. A crime is a crime is a crime. Such a nice guy, he’d never do something like this, we used to have BBQ with him, he’s a fun-loving guy….
So was Ted Bundy, just to name one.
There is a theory in law enforcement that punishment must be SWIFT and CERTAIN for it to have any deterrent effect.
Bush can and should be allowed to appeal but from Prison just like all the inmates on Texas’s Death Row.
If the GOP doesn’t like it we can tell them that Bush gets a Texas Public Defender as his lawyer…the one who fell asleep at Death Row Trials.
I think I’m going to embroider that on a
pillowgiant wall hanging.i’m hoping we get the Bugliosi book for book salon. Alicia did a two post review on the book and i’ve spoken with friends who have read it. I passed on that info to Bev.
In some instances–and I’m not saying they apply–you follow the FACTS first, Then you figure out the law and possible charges–but if a criminal has conspired to cover up, the conspiracy becomes ongoing and the Statute of Limitations is not triggered.
BIG HONKIN CAVEAT –until there is an actual professional investigation and we have hard hard facts, we can’t figure out what, if anything, can be proven in court
Bush is a lot more powerful than Pinochet
There was a post by Bugliosi at HuffPo awhile back. Isn’t he making a case for impeachment and does that have any relevance after a president leaves office? I thought impeachment was just a tool for removing a sitting president but I might be wrong. If we are ever to learn the full extent (or as much as possible) of their crimes it will require a wider focus. I wouldn’t be surprised if it ended up taking more time to uncover their nefarious deeds than Bush will have spent in office.
Obama signs up lawyers to make sure voting is done properly.
When I first heard him speak…I was literally scared. When I heard him a couple of times, I was able to listen to the logic. He’s being demonized, but the man knows what he’s talking about. At least that is my final, semi-reluctant conclusion. It made me feel like a jury member. It is very hard to look at the truth and the law. Hard, hard, hard. Not a pleasure by any means.
“Did any of you go to those Obama grassroots platform parties?”
Yes, I did. And I blogged about it here.
Thanks for writing about this, LHP!
Now to read…
Bob in HI
During a book salon with Dean, it was pointed out that impeachment can still occur to prevent further public service and as he pointed out; to close the circle…!
One of the things that freaks me out is the pessimism of the the human rights lawyers. One of the big critics of the idea at the roundtable discussion was from the ACLU.
The hippies think this is too idealistic!
No, no, no. It’s simply rule of law. Not pie in sky.
how many children 5 and under died because they didn’t have clean drinking water? we purposefully targeted the water treatment plants for destruction (bush 41) and then made sure they couldn’t be repaired or used effectively (clinton 42).
i doubt the no fly zones had anything to do with protecting anyone - after all we stood down while hussein was killing iraqis who had the gall to follow bush 41’s call to rise up against him. but more importantly for the clinton argument - on how many days did we bomb iraq under the pretext of the no fly zones?
like i said, i just want an impartial investigation and a fair trial for clinton. if he is innocent, he should be exonerated. but i don’t think he’s innocent.
As killers go, Bundy was a rank amateur compared to the neocons.
Are they just discouraged from beating their heads against the wall, do you think?
I agree with you, it’s “simply the rule of law.”
And I try to say so calmly and reasonably, without letting my emotions get hold of me, when explaining it to skeptical folks.
Yer a doll.
There are so many proven facts about illegal behavior in the Bush administration it would choke a wiki page. I am not talking about Bush, or Cheney personally, just the administration and all of it’s actors. maybe that is what I mean about a wood chipper.
Busted,
We get the government we
toleratedeserve. We MUSt hold he skinny man’s feet to the fire to help him be the best president he can beNo, he is making a bullet proof case for prosecuting Bush for murder. He prosecuted Manson and about a hundred others. Pretty drastic. One thing he said that I liked was that Bush will always know that at any time, because of no statute of limitations, he can be prosecuted. He wants him to know that what he is responsible for is prosecutable…forever..because after 1/20/09 he’s a citizen and can be prosecuted for his crimes during his time as president. That is not possible now…impeachment is the only remedy now, but after January….he could be toast..and anyone that is exposed as an accomplice during trial…is culpable too. It will take a DA or Asst. DA to launch a prosecution.
LHP, you’ve got me thinking with this post . . .
To have any credibility, it has to be non-partisan, but where are we going to find a group of folks with sufficient non-partisan cred to be believable?
I believe I have found a pool of candidates from which we could put together a strong commission — how about this group?
No one who joined since 2000 would be eligible to serve on the commission, of course, but those who served prior to 2000 would be well-suited for digging through this muck.
These are people who served at a time when their job was to be non-partisan advocates for the rule of law, and that’s just what it strikes me is needed for a commission like this to succeed.
Your thoughts?
lhp, i fixed your html booboo - hope i got it correct - let me know if i didn’t
On November 25, 2006, Pinochet marked his 91st birthday by having his wife pronounced a statement written by him, and read to his admirers present for his birthday: “I assume the political responsibility of all what has been done.”[39] Two days later, he was again ordered to house arrest for the kidnapping and murder of two bodyguards of Salvador Allende who were arrested the day of the 1973 coup and executed by a firing squad during the Caravan of Death episode.[40][41]
However, Pinochet died a few days later, on 10 December, 2006, without having been convicted of any crimes committed during his dictatorship.
[edit]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet
My Bold
why i get discouraged is that if rule of law applied how many of our presidents do you think should be tried for the crime of attacking another country (absent an imminent threat or UN security council resolution)?.
Good Evening looseheadprop and firedogs,
allright awready - will write post for Obamaworld *g*
hey lhp - was this fella there ? an NYC fixture and he’s been there, investigated that
Yeah, I read the Salon piece, too. But here’s what I noticed:
“The commission would focus strictly on detention, torture and extraordinary rendition…”
Fer pete’s sakes, why limit the focus? Do they mean to say that treason, such as outing a CIA agent, and starting a war on false pretenses, aren’t important? That violating the Constitution by spying on U.S. citizens isn’t worthy of investigation?
If we’re going to have a truth commission, let’s have the whole truth, please.
Bob in HI
KO’s interview with Suskind being rerun now.
Remember him? Former Lt. Com. Swift, who quit the Navy because he ruined his career by actually preparing to defend his appointed client?
There is a lawyer to look up to, who has not been turned into a pessimist. Can’t say how much I admire him.
Ratfood just brought up one of my favorite topics.
Nope dear RF impeachment can happen AFTER one leaves office. There are a whole bunch of consequences of impeachment, such as a permanent bar from ever serving in any gov’t capaicty again (praise Geezusz) and, of course, the derision of history (a personal fave of mine)that comes with post office impeachment.
Spread the good word brother RF –er, Sister RF?
bygones
you heard it here first
nope. think whitehouse. love him, but he pushed for telco immunity all the way. i think lhp is unusual for a prosecutor.
and to prevent the use of the pardon.
That occurred on 41’s watch too, shortly after we ‘won’ GWI, and led to the Southern ‘No-Fly’ zone… Obviously you have a huge hatchet to grind… I don’t fault you for it, Clinton is by no means a saint, but, I think you’re being a little over-zealous…
I don’t GET this . . . how is it bad for Obama if ANY one ANYtime (like NOW!) pursues investigations of criminal acts in the White House?
Every non 27% voter in the nation would FLOCK to this effort!
Uh-oh. What happened to my link? That’s from Salon’s “The bizarre trial of Bin-Laden’s bodyguard.” Sorry, messed up somehow.
Funniest interview I’ve ever seen Keith try to do. More like a runaway train than an interview subject!
That’s my thought too–this is simply rule of law.
That the lawyers in that group thought it was pie in the sky is evidence of…i don’t know what. Malaise, despair, loss of hope that things work like they once worked here.
The hippies think this is too idealistic!
No, no,no. It’s simply rule of law. Not pie in sky.
Then the hippies give up to easily if we settle we lose. Now its our chance to go for broke fortune favors the Bold.
is this the link?
Plus, of course, removal of the “emoluments of office” attends post-tenure impeachment, which means W will have to pay for his own secret service and paperclips.
don’t make me cry
Whitehouse *is* a former US Attorney, and he’s one reason I thought of the former USAs. As a group, they’ve got the kind of institutional memory for what the rule of law is, and also probably share the same kind of outrage at what has been done to the institution they served.
All in all, I think a commission like this ought to have no current members of the legislative branch. Not even Whitehouse.
does that mean he gets secret service protection while serving his time at leavenworth or would he be a protective custody prisoner and that would be deemed protection enough?
and slapped them in hell holes…
I first read this as hell roles… that too, I guess.
Puppetmaster…, hell to pay!
Yup. Thanks!
not at all, we’ve been waving bygones for a long time now.
I would be shocked, really shocked, to see any of these crooks held accountable for any of the crimes they have committed. Not a betting girl, but I’d bet good money they all skate.
Drat. I really have to go home. Love this kind of discussion, depressing as it can be. This is the best of FDL, to me. G’night!
No Busted, that’s the problem–they are not yet “proven” facts. We need to let the justice system do its thing.
Slowly, systematically, fairly. We need to actually “prove” what happened. That’s all I’m asking for. A fair investigation and a chance to prove
If Obama goes along with this then this will be Histories first sign he will be a one term President.
This is one of the most important things we could do. Shine all the light we can on the machinations of this administration, and get the truth out. If anyone has broken the law, prosecute them. Cut the head off that zombie, and show any Repubs in the future what’s in store for them if they think they can pull another Cheney unitary-executive corruption-fest. If we DON’T, then we’ll for sure have to deal with it again in our lifetimes, and I don’t know if the Republic can stand it.
I agree
This sounds like a reasonable way to proceed. I think the proceedings would have to be completely transparent and televised, though. Otherwise there’s the stink of the W and Shooter way of doing things. Peterr’s idea about NAFUSA is a very good one.
He gets put into solitary—for his own protection, doncha know.
Heck, let’s go whole hog and get several! (This is probably why we’re not lawyers. We want the BIG woodchipper, the one built on the semi tractor chassis, not the jeweller’s chipper, unsuitable for anything larger than a pencil.)
The odd thing about this trial balloon is that one of the two names cited in the report is Ben Rhodes, who is a foreign policy advisor and speechwriter for the Obama campaign. Why would this be a matter for the foreign policy team? And if it is, who could we reach out to on that team?
g’nite tejanarusa
Nice. Of course the Church Commision was bi partisan –in the good way. Ads opposed to the 911 commission which was bi partisan in the bad way
It’s going to come down to the actual individual appointees
Ford’s one term is proof positive of that…! Btw, Dean’s up now on KO!
Just so long as he is arrested and held without bail as a flight risk in County just like any other person I am sure we have enough to charge him long enough to hold him.
And that we have enough slam dunks to keep him there.
is this the link?
gawd, that’s a sickening article, especially for a defense lawyer.
Hearsay? No problem.
Can’t confront your accusers? No problem.
Evidence admittedly obtained by “coercion”? - “Jeez, would the defense please stop this whiny crap? We’re a military tribunal, not a Court of Law. Sit down and shut up”!
No Tv dang
Let me check… result… inconclusive