i don’t think our problems are primarily technological – they are political and cultural.

Neil Young’s building a car:

http://www.lincvolt.com/

“Vision
Our goal is to inspire a generation by creating a clean automobile propulsion technology that serves the needs of the 21st Century and delivers performance that is a reflection of the driver’s spirit. By creating this new power technology we hope to reduce the demand for petro-fuels enough to eliminate the need for war over energy supplies, thereby enhancing the security of the USA and other nations throughout the world.

Values
We want to build a zero emissions automobile that eliminates roadside re-fueling entirely, a safe powerful automobile that is comfortable and economic on both long trips and the commute to work, an automobile that can generate power to the home when it is parked, potentially creating an income stream for the owner.”

There’s lots going on out there, but this country needs leaders-in government and business-who can tie it all together.

I grew up being told “where there is a will there is a way” what I fear now is the competition of the wills. Yes we can but it is going to have to be a two pronged attack; one to acquire or reaquire the technology; the other to battle the vested, monied interests.

There are some really significant economic dislocation issues to settle as well. Capital flowing in new directions, workers in new fields as old ones die out (For instance, how much less mechanicing does an electric motor need?)
Not to mention geopolitical issues as oil producing countries begin to feel the pinch.

I almost forgot why I am voting for Obama:) But still no money until he fixes FISA or we get real National Healthcare.

I do like the push. But it needs to be for far more than a million cars. How about half of all cars sold in the US each year within the next 5 years?

Hybrids are gas and electric motors but if we go pure electric your right.

I would bet the farm that the back shelves of the GM storage room is packed with gas saving technology going all the way back to the Arab Oil Embargo in the 70’s that would have never allowed this to happen in the first place and would be the answer to our problems today. That’s what happens to these marvelous inventions. They get purchased by the automobile companies and mothballed where they can do no **harm**.

Probably a few marvelous patents in DC which could be bought out or nationalized if need be.

Electric Mini Cooper will be in US customer hands in summer 2009

Without government help can the car companies do that right now? They will need government help just to survive…which means WE HAVE LEVERAGE WE CAN TELL DETROIT WHAT TO DO IN RETURN FOR NOT GOING BANKRUPT.
If Bush had not invaded Iraq and spiked the price of gas this would not be happening talk about unintended consequences:)

I really want the Chevy Volt to succeed, but we’re well behind the Japanese on this. The Prius is the current “gold standard” for fuel-efficiency and “green-ness”, and even Honda is having had a hard time grabbing a piece of their market. It’s going to be hard to change the mentality that, when it comes to cars, you buy Japanese if you want an efficient one; you buy American if you want an obnoxious one.

Bill Clinton triangulates when it comes to supporting Obama.
Does he want McCain as #44?

# 
A $7,000 tax credit for consumers who buy early model plug-in vehicles.

http://www.hybridcars.com/ince…..-0805.html

I am so going to look at the Aptera
http://www.aptera.com/

and this one

http://www.airshiptg.org/index.htm

I don’t think that GM and Ford can both survive and maybe they both will go down. How sad for our country and what a horrible fate for all those who work there. Fingers crossed.

Thanks BT.

AFAIK, we have to bring a lot more electric generation online to handle new hybrids.

Conserving energy is for sissies. And it doesn’t make money for the oil industry. Its much more butch to start wars for oil and drive the price up by creating disruption in the world.

And think about how cool it will when the ice caps start melting and flooding low lying areas.

OT
Ron Suskind up next on Leonard Lopate show, wnyc.org. The blog for comments is here
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopa…..nts/105115

That mentality has been true since the 70’s…which is when I bought the first of several Japanese cars.

“as well as a generous $7,000 tax deduction for consumers.”

Is anybody familiar with the “alternative fuels fiasco” we had in Arizona? It put our last governor before Janet out of office. Seems to me it also had to do with a very generous tax deduction for hybrid buyers, but I’m getting older and can’t trust my memory anymore very much. I suggest you look up what happened in this state when they offered an overly generous tax break for a car that will ultimately save the buyer money already.

The Volt is great but can GM deliver? They already killed one electric car where they had the tech lead by being morons. Getting rid of the *cough* indispensable auto executives might be necessary first.
GOPers always point to getting rid of business leaders who don’t work as socialism and then blame every problem that happens after that as related but with GM

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE%3AGM

Look at the chart look at GM’s current stock price hit max then try and find when GM was that low, then try and figure how much more the Dollar was worth then.
GM Executives had their chances for decades of failure.

Are Ford and GM american companies or global companies? Is their alegiance to the US or to the dollar?

What happened? AZ is not a corn state so ethanol doesn’t make sense like it does for Illinois politically if not economically what other alternative fuels were around back then?
How many hybrids were sold in your state.

Not sure about their allegiance but the American public certainly has given them a good smacking. They refused to believe that people wanted smaller more efficient cars and blew themselves right out of the market. I personally think they are doomed.

They are making money everywhere but here.

Thanks BT!

Check your tire pressure today?

I think they are laying the groundwork to go into bankruptcy. Then they can dump their unfunded committments (retirement plans etc) Then come out of bankruptcy.

Pitched both as a clean air program and a step toward weaning the country off foreign oil, Arizona offered a lump-sum rebate of up to 40 percent off the final price of sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks converted to use alternate fuels, while exempting buyers from sales taxes, vehicle license taxes and emissions tests.

Worse, beneficiaries of the program were not required to use alternative fuel in their bi-fuel vehicles, and many disconnected the systems right after purchase.

http://www.stateline.org/live/…..ntId=14196

Some thought should go into the “Obama idea to avoid fraud but I doubt anyone will disconnect the electric motor on their hybrids.
However GM’s light hybrids should not qualify for the same discount as a Prius, or Volt.

Plug in models don’t work for those of us in apartments. No outdoor outlets.

The problem with American automobile executives is that they are always 5 years behind the curve. They are always playing catch up. Oil prices have been on a relentless rise since 2004. Peak oil is closing in. And the Execs in Michigan are and remain as clueless as ever. A century ago these guys would have been betting the store on the next new buggy and pooh-poohing that horseless carriage thingy.

Putting electrical outlets in the parking lots is relatively easy

When I owned a car, I always assumed the air tire fairy would take care of tire pressure.

Making money saving tech available for everyone will take thought maybe tax credits to landlords who install outdoor outlets and a tent like roof to their outside parking like some car dealerships have to protect the outlets from rain.

They are to busy worrying about the value of their golden parachutes

It’s all about GREED baby!
There is going to have to a paradigm shift in the attitude of the American consumer before this even gets off the ground.
That is the only reason it isn’t mainstream right now, the technology has been there for years.
Look at The Hummer, touted as a status symbol.
90 percent of the people who own one have never used it for its original intended use, a powerful all wheel drive vehicle with exceptional gound clearance for off road use.

Ford and GM are reaping the fruits of their labors. They could have been building extremely fuel efficient cars by the train load.
Instead they build retro looking hot rods to cash in on the Baby Boomers who never had a chance to buy a four hundred horsepower Mustang or Camaro back in the day.
There are quite a few electric and hybrid cars out there if you want to look for them, just use Google.
Instead, their has to be a painful weaning away from high horsepower, high performance vehicles to fuel efficient and DEPENDABLE basic transportation that is going to have to be a consumer driven effort to force manufactures to rethink the notion of trying to sell cars on sex appeal and instead on actual utility and energy efficiency.

It sure was funny to read about GM executives who fought against hybrids saying they were a waste of money.

Yes they dragged their feet regarding radial tires, improved lighting, disc-brakes and even electric windshield wipers.

But the ‘troops’, the ‘grunts’, the men and women on the ‘line’, as well as the public deserved much better.

The bright red cherry on top was the Hummer …

Yes, again a failure of leadership.

If we’re talking automobiles and I say “innovation” and “quality”, how many here first think of an American company? That’s the problem.

And Cheney said what about hybrids?

Its all about being lazy, greed takes work these guys stood pat and never invested in new tech except for the electric car which was a joke to them.
These guys were grasshoppers enjoying the summer/cheap gas while the ants/hybrid car makers prepared for winter.
Invest in ants winter is a crisis you can make money off of.

rain?? what’s that?? oh i remember!

Same thing he said to Patrick Leahey.

I wasn’t there, but I assume Cheney said something to the effect of them taking food out of the oil exec’s mouths.

“Conservation may be a sign of personal virtue, but it is not a sufficient basis for a sound, comprehensive energy policy.”
Vice President Richard Cheney, 2001

http://sunhomedesign.wordpress…..on-growth/

That guy can suck on my tail pipe.

And Cheney said what about hybrids?

Was that it or did Darth say something ELSE stupid?

party pooper!

Ari Fleisher said something equally idiotic.

On Thursday, Dec. 14, Gov. Jane Hull signed a bill into law that will shrink what was a potentially devastating $600 million budget liability to a more manageable $200 million. Still, that is more than $190 million more than the state wanted to spend on the program, which gave Arizonans generous incentives to buy vehicles converted to run on propane or compressed natural gas.

That’s just one paragraph from an article I found by searching “alternative fuels fiasco & Arizona.” Lots more to see on the subject.

To tell the truth, I don’t like the idea of using corn for an alternative fuel. First of all, corn is a staple of human’s diets; second, corn is definitely a big part of animal feed; thirdly, once I started gardening, I discovered that one corn plant requires at least 3 square feet of space in a farmer’s field (that’s a minimum) and yields only 1 ear of corn. Furthermore, corn takes a high toll from the productivity of that field for the next season; IOW, it takes a lot out of the soil. There have to be more productive ways of growing renewable sources. Perhaps some grasses are the answer.

Do you got a drought going on in Texas?

The united States is sitting on top of the most amount of natural gas in the world.

Corn makes sense politically in Illinois I said it never made sense economically. But if you grow corn in Illinois you will get more than one ear of corn per plant.

Because we have the most Taco Bells?

Was T-Boone Pickens behind AZ converting cars to natural gas because he is talking about that now, I suspect the GOP money men bet on natural gas.

Well come on Share!

Just from my personal experience, there is a lot more potential fuel energy emitted from refried beans than there is an ear of corn.
YMMV.
Lol

I don’t really remember the quote, it was an answer to a question about conservation and Fleischer said, “That’s a big no. The President believes the American people are accustomed to a certain lifestyle” blah blah blah.

Yes, and my understanding is that natural gas is much cleaner burning, so it might not put nearly as many harmful products into the air and we can produce it in our own country, so that’s all good. But it is still a fossil fuel without the positive aspect of being renewable. I feel it would be good for many things, like maybe producing electricity, home heating(?), gas stoves and dryers, whatever else. But for transportation, I’m not so sure. I’d need to do a lot more study on the stability of natural gas, because I’m not sure whether it is anything like propane, which I hear regularly about blowing folks up. I’m a little skeptical about that type of gas under the hood of my car, but just because I haven’t educated myself on that yet.

yep. hoping for a little rain from edouard today.

He is right I don’t care what kind of car I drive just so long as I still got money in my pocket after the fillup my Toyota Echo may not be a hybrid but its small and with 130,000 miles has saved me thousands in gas.
Oh wait Ari and Bush thought I cared about the car well only if gas was to cheap to worry about and I wasn’t worried about global warming.

It is a technology that has been around for a while now. Might be beneficial in the short term but hopefully as you suggest other new technologies should replace it.

Late to the lunch gathering, as usual. Had to catch up with this morning’s comments.

Put me down for fighting the vested monied interests.

No war but class war.

Canadian Motor Company, ZENN, is due to release a highway capable EV in the Fall of 2009.

ZENN Motor Company

Not as far as I know. Some local politicians (Rethugs, of course) were. It seems they were in the state legislature, but had businesses on the side that would profit from the conversions. In Indiana, we used to call that “conflict of interest”, but here I think it’s known as “Standard Operating Procedure (SOP)”.

Call me an economist, but I don’t see any practical way to get a 150 mpg car on the road using only electricity. There are still serious problems with batteries and charging times. Much easier to make light cars like they do in Europe. Losing weight is also a good way to save gas, and helps your life prospects, too.

I wouldn’t put any stupidity past our auto CEO’s, but it strikes me that their problem is that, having conditioned the American people to want big high-performance cars — what they are selling is the adrenaline rush — it’s hard to turn around and say ‘nevermind’. Everytime gas prices go down, the American heartland goes back to its first love.

What about that car that runs on compressed air. Made by Tata in India. I would like to see Tata’s on the streets of America.

They already are, at least gas ones. They are called “Jaguar” and “Land Rover”.

It is far too little for an “energy plan” that doesn’t resemble the oil company’s ideas. Is it so much to ask that we provide solar power for free to all Americans so they can drive an electric car that has NO pollution?
really sorry that the candidate is so short sighted. The people with the oil and coal are still driving the energy policy, even for Obama. It is really sad.

Ann,

Sugarcane and sweet sorghum appear to the warm setup for biologically-derived ethanol right now. When we get cellulosic ethanol on-line (and it is just a matter of time), they’ll likely continue to have an edge.

Corn is a loser in ethanol for two reasons:
(1) the starches must be converted into sucrose the yeasts can ferment;
(2) the amount of convertible starch is limited.

Cane and sorghum can have close to 50% of their dry weight in the form of already fermentable sucrose.

Additionally, ethanol production may not be all that friendly. Apparently nitrous oxide is a by-product of some stage of the production. NO is a much more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. So they’ll have to find a way to scrub that from the emissions.

Perfect is the enemy of the good.

And Big Time said the American way of life was ‘non-negotiable’. Then he ate the last GM electric car.

I wonder what happens in case of an accident that punctures the compressed air tank of the Tata car, though? Not to be a concern troll…..but I’d hate to find myself blown to Crawford while driving in Tulsa.

In my opinion, Barak Obama’s speech in Lansing, Michigan, this week requieres that the Unions develop an specific plan to retool factories of all car makers for :

a) electric plug-in hybrids with ethanol-biodiesel motors,
b) new cheap composite materials and glass
c) hydrogen and methanol fuel-cell cars
d) solar panels plug-ins on every surface
e) gas stations retooling with plug-ins,new pipes , new pumps and compressors, etc., etc.,

and the necessary services ,parts, repairs, training,etc.,

THE UNIONS MUST BE THERE WITH A PLAN, THE UNIONS CANNOT WAIT FOR MANAGEMENT TO DO IT,THEY WIL MESS UP EVERYTHING, UNIONS MUST GET ACTIVE WITH A PLAN and GO TO OBAMA ( AND MCCAIN) AND SEE WHAT THEY DO, IF IT’S JUST TALK OR ACTION….after all, most of the advisers in the 2 campaigns are neocons with the Hedge-Funds that are interested only in the benefit of their masters : Saudi Arabia-UAE-Kuwait-OPEC and their Hedge-Funds managers from the israeli-neocon Lobby, the usual manipulators, this time the Unions must act.

the Unions must understand that Saudi Arabia and Israel are the most interested in keeping America addicted to Oil and only from the Middle East,so that “they” and only they are totally important and necessary…that’s why the neocons have a constant conflict with Russia, Venezuela,Libya and Iran,so only the Milddle East is left to provide the USA with 40 % of its Oil needs ( the rest comes from Canada and Mexico) , a fabricated monopoly but very profitable…enough ! time to break free!….UNIONS : GIVE A PLAN TOTHE CANDIDATES !

2) the plan to develop cellulosic plants for ethanol from wood chips is a very bad idea: WE ARE HUMAN AND WE WOULD END-UP CUTTING DOWN ALL THE TREES IN AMERICA FOR ETHANOL, WE ARE HUMANS AND SO WE ARE STUPID,GREEDY AND IGNORANT, WOOD CHIPS IS A VERY BAD IDEA, when we have jathropa,castor, seaweeds -algae,pengamia, etc.,all non-edible crops that won’t affect our wonderful trees, so we need to be vigialnt or they will cut down all the trees in the Americas !!!

so the Unions must prepare a plan, a total one, and go to Obama and McCain and let’s do it !