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In 1972, she ran for the State House. In 1978, she became the Lieutenant Governor. Then, in 1984, Madeleine Kunin became Vermont’s first female Governor. She served three terms. In a dozen years, she had broken through multiple glass ceilings – all before leaving the state of Vermont.
During the 90s, she was a member of the Clinton campaign’s Vice Presidential search committee, and then his administration’s transition team. She served as Deputy Secretary of Education, and as the Ambassador to Switzerland, the country of her birth, helping all sides find a resolution to a major international disagreement – that of Swiss banks and the money they held onto from Nazi Germany.
Though these titles and accomplishments alone paint the portrait of a stunning life in politics at home and abroad, that isn’t what Pearls, Politics and Power is about. Rather, Kunin focuses not on her achievements, but the need to draw more women directly into the political process.
16%.
It’s a number she returns to repeatedly throughout the book.
"Women make up 16 percent of the Congress, 16 percent of the top corporate positions, and 16 percent of the lower houses of Parliaments worldwide. These are record numbers for the United States, but they are low compared to many other countries. The united States ranks sixty-ninth in a list of 187 countries in the percentage of women in lower houses of Parliament."
Why? Why do women eschew the political life? What factors keep them out of the halls of Congress or removed from their office C-suite? Kunin identifies 7 obstacles: dealing with dirty politics, dealing with conflict and criticism, the ability to raise money, time, privacy, risk and confidence.
Some of these obstacles are the result of gender norms, impressed upon girls from the cradle and throughout their adolescence, which are hard to break out of to effectively run for office. Women are taught to avoid conflict. We are constantly reminded of the importance of being popular.
While no one likes to be criticized publicly, women in the spotlight face another level of scrutiny that often places an emphasis on personal issues rather than professional critiques. As we grow older, we are expected to juggle the demands of a home and family with that of a professional career – demands that are in constant conflict, making the question of timing all that more complicated.
Yet, despite the obstacles, women can, and do run for office. Women do become politicians, and do find their way into public life. We’ve seen Speaker Pelosi take the gavel. We watched as Senator Clinton made a historic run for the nomination. Yet, we’re still stuck at 16 percent. It’s just not enough.
How do women get started? What do we need to change about our culture to encourage women and girls to see themselves as leaders? What impact will increased participation by women have on our nation and our world?
These are all questions Governor Kunin addresses in Pearls, Politics and Power and some of the topics I hope she will touch on today. It’s an honor to welcome her to Firedoglake’s Book Salon for this important discussion.
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Madeleine, Welcome to the Lake,
Tracy, thank you for Hosting this book salon.
Thanks, Bev! I know I’m thrilled to have this discussion today.
Thank you, it’s great to be part of this conversation.
Madeleine
So first question for Madeleine Kunin…Well first two questions.
As I noted in the introductory post, you’ve got some great titles to toss around. Which do you prefer?
And, getting to the book, What made you write Pearls, Politics and Power right now? What was it about this moment in history that prompted you to put pen to paper?
Welcome Ambassador Kunin, what an honor to have you here!
Welcome Governor Kunin,
Went over the river and through the woods to many a Thanksgiving in your fine state. so it’s a special pleasure to have you at the Lake.
This is definitely a conversation we need to have.
.
and thank you, Tracy, for the nice introduction.
The title that I like best, at least in Vermont, is Governor. There are fewer Governors than ambassadors, which I was told, gives the role a higher status. It is also the job when one has the greatest impact and direct contact with the public. Many see it as the best job in politics and I would agree, although the number of years in office is shorter for governors.
I wrote the book to pass the torch to the next generation–I feel strongly that we need women’s priorities and experiences in the political mix–that is the only way we can address issues like health care, child care, family work questions and even the environment. Not all women have to agree to make a difference. Women tend to vote in certain ways across party lines because their life experiences have been different from men’s–their stories matter and stories are the catalysts for change.
It’s an honor, Madame Ambassador, to visit with you here today.
How, in fact, do women get started?
Welcome to FDL Governor Kunin.
Is there something in the water in Vermont that makes for so many fine politicians from such a small area? Yourself, Senator Leahy, Senator Sanders, former Senator Jeffords and so on.
The best way to get started is to work at the community level. Volunteer in a campaign–a great year to do this. Even if you just make phone calls or lick envelopes, you’ll learn a lot about how campaigns are run if you keep your eyes and ears open.
Or, work on a local issue. You’d be surprised to know that most people will welcome you. The cigar filled room where the deals are made is becoming extinct–so just jump in, do what you enjoy, and take the time to think about what kind of change you would like to see. You can have an impact if you stick with it and begin to network.
If you’re a parent, get involved in your children’s school—One quote in my book is from Gov Sebelius ofKansas who said,”Anyone who’s organized a birthday party for a five year old, can run a campaign.”
Governor it is then!
Women do bring a unique perspective to their work, do you think men can comprehend what it is we mean when we say that?
For instance, I feel as if every time I get up in arms about being subject to a panel of all white men, whether it be on a court or a TV pundit circle, it’s almost politically incorrect to mention the disparity – as if at this point in history, we’ve made all the feminist gains we’re to make and now women should stop whining.
Welcome, Governor. Thanks for your strong role modeling.
Love the title of your book, and the topic of women and power.
I feel like there is regression going on in the world re women and power.
Madonna to whore, double standard role traps for women.
The extreme religious flanks disempowering women. And the horror of sex trafficking. Rape as a tool of war. The torture of female combatants though they have kept that hidden. The sexual abuse of women in our own military.
I think the women of the world have got to do more to protect each other and ourselves collectively.
It was noted in your book as well, that women are frequently found behind the scenes – acting as the worker bees, doing the work that needs to be done, but not getting the spotlight or the credit in many instances.
Why do you think that is and how do we change that?
Yes, there is something in the water. I think the fact that we’re a small state makes politics feel more accessible, we know our politicians. When I first ran for the state legislature, it was an extension of community involvement–but of course, when I ran for Governor, it was as competetive as it would be elsewhere. My goal in writing the book was to urge people to think of serving in public life like community service, not necessarily something you have to do for a lifetime, but a civic duty.
People need to be reassured that if you take the risk of running for office, you can actually get something done. That has been my overall experience. You never get everything, of course, but you can achieve a great deal, certainly more satisfying than staying home and wringing your hands.
Interesting. Some men don’t get it, but fortunately more men do. I happened to be married to one and I think my sons see their roles in relation to women differently than the prior generation. How to get the point across? I think we have to constantly push back when sexist or insensitive comments are made, it’s not easy–because much has changed for the better. Sex discrimination is more subtle now–but we have to use our voices and cannot passively accept things as they are.
I think there is a sense of scarcity and competition at times among successful women that holds them back from mentoring other women. Maybe the “All About Eve” syndrome? Also, I see the younger generation of women not realizing the struggle that generations before them had to go through. Wrinkle-your-nose reaction to older women, “You mean you were an ick feminist?” And a lot of backlash about “choice” among the younger generation, too.
Shifting gears a bit, I was interested in your section on the importance of mentors in the political process.
With fewer women in those upper ranks it seems harder for women to form those relationships.
I’ve also discussed this with several of my upwardly career mobile girlfriends and we see a different pattern of behavior between men and women.
Men have a thick “old boy’s club” mentality – and seem willing to do a favor or hire their “buddies” without my qualms. Wheras women are much more conscientious about how a recommendation will reflect on their own careers, so less likely to do as many casual favors for each other, thus making our network weaker, in some respects.
Have you observed this in your own experience? And how do women, especially young women, find those established figures to help guide them?
You’re absolutely right about the double standard of Madonna to whore. There is also a double standard in politics at the highest levels. Women are expected to be tough as a man on one side, but feminne and likeable on the other. If you’re too tough, you’re a bitch, and if you’re too nice, you can’t do the job. We saw this played out in Hillary’s race–she never could get just the right balance until the very end in her concession speech. It’s also a litmus test for women CEO’s.
The continued violence against women is hard to comprehend–some kind of rage takes place.
Women do have to unite–that is our strength. Gradual change has been too slow, I think we have to be more demanding, more outspoken, even if that requires taking great risks. The risk of doing nothing is greater.
I was just typing out my own question along those lines!
Yes, women have worked behind the scenes. That means they are fully qualified to step out front because they know as much as the person who is out there. Just take a chance and tell yourself, I can do this. In fact, I have been doing this.
Well said. There is a book by a Dorothy Dinnerstein that claims that men, besides the testosterone competitive factor, are forever rebelling against their most powerful and earliest authority figure, the “mother” and an unconscious need to separate from “mommy” women and keep them separate for their own identity-building. Men need to separate to be like their daddies. Women need to bond. Mars and Venus.
I also have read about the partnership vs. patriarchal paradigm. How the world needs the ying (female) not yang (masculine principle) SYSTEM of governance. Masculine is too obsessed with power and control. Female is about common good.
Yes, there is some competition amongst women, only natural, but I think there is less of a queen bee syndrome than there once was.
Young women don;’t like the word “feminist” even though their lives were changed by the movement., I think we have to try to reach out to them, understand that it’s an achievement that they feel no need to identify themselves as feminists. Usually, if they decide to have children, they discover somewhat later, that all is not equal after all, but they are in a very different place than my generation.
Nothing worse than feeling betrayed or sabotaged or just the indifference of a fellow women who doesn’t get that sisterhood can be powerful.
Once women are empowered and in power, is their an immediate shift? From your own experience, perhaps, taking over the reigns in Vermont after many years of all-male rule? Did you find anything surprising?
Mentors are very important, and it is best to seek them out.Most will be pleased to give you their time.
In my political life, we developed an “old girls” network and did help one another out. It is important to develop sisterhood. That is a spirit I also tried to cultivate in my administration.,
I think a lot of that is because the far right did quite a number making “feminist” into something to be ashamed of – only ugly angry women are feminists in their view – something today’s generation of feminists are constantly dealing with and a reason why Jessica Valenti’s feministing.com is one of my daily must-reads!
Yes, I found lots of things surprising, the biggest was that we thought once I won the election, the gender questions would disappear. Not so. Questions about leadership style, thoughness, decisivness continued to arise. We will had to prove ourselves. Certainly the title Governor helps and automatically gives you the most important seat at the table, but the questions still arise.
Put simply, Men are given the benefit of the doubt in regard to leadership qualities (and management) and women have the burden of proof. Doesn’t mean it can’t be done, but you carry extra luggage.
The good suprise was how women reacted to me. My election seemed to be an affirmation for many women of their own worth.
My friend Courtney tells me that your book was part of her assigned reading for a course on women in leadership roles at George Washington University.
One of the questions that arose during her class discussions that I think would be interesting to hear from you about is the difference between female political participation here in the US verses the rest of the world.
What lessons can we learn from the countries that are ahead of us, in terms of participation?
Yes, feminist has an angry interpretation for some. For me–and I am a feminist–it simply means equality. Perhaps we should do more to define feminism for ourselves in ways that make sense to us and are less threatening to others.
Gov. Kunin, welcome to Firedoglake. And Tracy, thanks so much for such a great intro to the book.
Gov. Kunin, the profile you include from Betty Friedan was such a good example of what one woman who puts her mind to something can achieve above and beyond herself and her family. As a Smith College grad, Betty’s work has always resonated with me — both as a woman and a mom. How were you able to do so much while reconciling the working you with the role of wife and mother. You mention your incredibly supportive husband in your acknowledgements (I am lucky enough to have one of those as well) — but it really does take so much extra effort when you have kids in tow as well.
We see so many articles these days about women thinking they can’t have it all and dropping out of the professional world. What advice would you have for other women on balancing their lives with family and with work toward a greater purpose — through politics or something else?
Welcome, Governor. I can’t wait to read your book. Recent articles suggest that one of the reasons women don’t have as much political power as men is that women give less money to candidates or political causes. How can we encourage women to put less money aside for cute shoes (!) and more for political causes?
PunditMom
There does seem to be something enormously powerful about the visual of a woman in office – I think we all saw that when Speaker Pelosi took the gavel last year.
Hi Christy! Thanks so much for having me along for this fun little FDL ride today. Love your question.
I fear for some women empowered as equals is automatically a threat for some people. I will never understand it fully, but I certainly recognize it.
Combining family and career, whether it’s in politics or something equally demanding, remains a challenge. It’s hard to give advice because one’s choices are fundamentally personal, while at the same time, influenced by the cultural patterns of the time. I gradually increased my responsibilities outside of the home. Could not have run for Governor when my children were small. But I also know I would not have been a very good mother if I felt I had sacrificed my career for them. The objective is balance, but it is not always achieveable. I did go through a lot of guilt trips,but eventually children grow up. One answer is that one can do different things at different stages of life. I am fortunate in that my children seem to have grown up to become fairly normal adults. I write more about this in my memoir, Living a Political Life, which you may wish to read.
As an addendum to that, there also appears to be both good and bad about the political scene world wide for women. It seems that many times, the women politicians are still viewed as “appendages” of the husband or father, whether with Indira Ghandhi, Benazir Bhutto, or the woman in South America who replaced her husband. And we’ve seen a lot of that in the US as well.
Gov, did you have to fight a lot of folks who felt that you were supposed to be an extension of your husband rather than an independent voice and person in your own right?
Fund raising can be a problem. The biggest obstacle for women running for office is not necessarily gender, but whether they are considered a viable candidate. Once I was elected, I had much less trouble raising money to get re-elected.
Women should be encouraged to give money to women candidates and time–one woman was able to run for city council in Pittsfield, MA because a group of women agreed to provide home cooked meals for her family twice a week and drive her kids wherever they needed to go. That made the difference.
Not everyone can run for office, but everyone can help a woman get elected, and ASK her to run. Women, more than men, need to be asked.
I also very much appreciated the practical tips you have at the end of the book for becoming more politically involved in communities and such — mentoring a younger woman in activism, teaching citizenship at community events, nurturing our daughters to be leaders, etc. As the mother of a 5 year old daughter myself, I hope that I’m nurturing that inner confidence and also trying to provide a halfway decent example on my best days of fighting for what I believe in where and when I can.
We recently had Lou DuBose on for a book salon for the last book he and Molly Ivins did together. One of the things that I learned in reading the book was that Molly had done a monthly lecture somewhere in the US on the first amendment nearly every month — including when she was battling cancer — for years and years of her life. And not in the easy places like DC or Berkeley, but in library basements in Alabama and North Dakota and everyplace in between. Now THAT is dedication to leading by example.
I wonder if you have some particular examples from your lifetime in public service that you saw of folks doing similar things in their own communities that stick out in your mind?
Some favorite quotes about women:
Just got here, Gov. Kunin. This is an interesting thought. I’ve heard women where I work talk about how their children just don’t see color they way they do. So I guess all of us DFHs managed to do something right?!
No, I didn’t do that because I did this on my own. I didn’t have men in my family who were political.
Sometimes women get elected on that basis, but then became their own person. Idira Ghandi certainly did. The men expected her to be pliant, but she surprised them by becoming a strong leader.
I think today women do not need to be appendages of men–though in the early days, they were often appointed to fill a deceased husband’s seat. I was the 4th woman in the US to be elected governor “in my own right.”
That reminds me of The Women’s Campaign Forum, which has a great program called “She Should Run” which asks people to think of women in their lives who SHOULD run for office.
Here is a link for those interested: She Should Run
Emily’s List is such a genius idea in that regard — because early money really is the key to success for newer candidates for so many reasons. It’s one of the main reasons we started working our Blue America candidates as well, to give a leg up to political candidates who weren’t getting establishment money because their races were perhaps a little more risky or their viewpoints a bit too progressive for Beltway tastes. But if you don’t try, you never get that chance to push a little bit at the edges and change things.
And we’ve had great success helping some of these candidates because their communities were ready for change — they’d just never been given a good opportunity to push for it themselves. That has been incredibly rewarding.
I knew you’d love this book, Tracy. It’s got so much practical and real world/common sense information in it. We need more information like what Gov. Kunin has put together in this book to really inspire women — really, everyone — to get more involved in the political process.
The first political, possibly community service, activity I undertook was to get a flashing red light at a RR crossing in my neighborhood. My kids had to cross the tracks on their way to school and I was a worried mother.
Worried mothers make excellent politicians–that’s what springs them into action.
On a more theoreticaly level, I think I always had a sense of social concern. I must have learned that at home. I also was effected by the Holocaust which left me with the belief that one should not be passive in the face of injustice.
Another quote … thank God she didn’t follow her own advice, or at least found her own parades :):
Let’s keep the chat to on-topic discussions about the book, please, folks — please take any off-topic discussions to the prior thread. Thanks!
I did love it! It made me rethink my own decisions on whether or not I’d ever be a candidate for political office and also helped expand the way I think about public service – the Governor is right – no one says it has to be a lifetime of office-holding to make a difference. That is a powerful shift from thinking of a career politician…
Women can create a climate for change by organizing and speaking up. Most people would be surprised to discover it is easier than it looks from the outside.
I think you need three ingredients to step over the line from private citizen to public persob: 1. Anger–just the right level. If you’re too angry you become either passive, believing nothing will change, or you become a revolutonary and want to burn the place down.
2. Imagination–you have to be able to envision things as they could be, rather than as they are.
3.Optimism–you have to believe that if you take the risk of sticking your neck out, something will happen. The system works well enough for you to get results.
One of the things that I try to remind folks of often is what a HUGE difference they can make in their own communities. Like the RR crossing light that Gov. Kunin spoke about from her first foray into political activism. What city councils and county commissions and such do have an enormous and immediate impact on people’s everyday lives, as do school boards. National office may get you on CNN, but local office or even local lobbying with other folks in your community for changes in your own home town can immediately make your community better.
That has real value, especially as it ripples out to other communities as well.
I love that — that’s a perfect distillation. Thanks — I may have to quote that in a post!
Governor Kunin – You included women from both sides of the aisle in your book and I found myself actually agreeing with Republicans for once!
Were there differences though between the women when you interviewed them? About their experiences coming through the ranks on the left vs. the right?
Glad you’re thinking in a different way. If I can be of any help to you later, please feel free to get in touch with me. A lot depends on your own community, but there are some general pieces of advice that may be helpful.
Think about the network you already have that might enable you to take the next step.
That sense of entitlement so many of us lack. The pressure on women to be socially “appropriate and predictable”, to be modest and unpresumptuous. I look at famous women authors who pushed on through, but with such psychological backlash for the degree of ostracism that went with being truer to their real identities than their female “role.” Sylvia Plath, Virginia Woolf. Men have so much more elbow room to be individualistic. It is better but still exists. Little girls upon leaving adolescence play down their smarts and focus on their appearance to a painful extent. MSM doesn’t help.
Again, that double standard. What is it… a woman dares to put a man on hold and she is a b*tch. A man needs to start a war to be viewed as excessively aggressive.
LOL Libby — thank goodness she found so many of her own parades, indeed. Can’t imagine women’s issues moving forward on the international stage as much as they did when she was at the UN otherwise…
I think you are absolutely right! School Boards. Now there is a place to have an impact on shaping an entire generation that is massively under-appreciated, if you ask me!
Great question — I wondered about that as well, since the folks on the right have very well-developed grooming programs for up-and-coming politicos from College Republicans onward. We on the left are behind them in infrastructure development in that regard, especially with media and messaging training. They have a pundit factory, it seems like some days!
Thank you! That is an offer I won’t forget!
There were not as many differences as one might expect, but I did talk to moderate Republican women and they are harder to find these days–either men or women.
I think there are generic experiences that all political women have that links them together in a common bond in many instances. The divisive issues are of course, choice, but many Republican women also agree on that.
Overall, almost twice as many women who are elected are Democrats.
A question that may have gotten over looked from above regarding the international scene:
My friend Courtney tells me that your book was part of her assigned reading for a course on women in leadership roles at George Washington University.
One of the questions that arose during her class discussions that I think would be interesting to hear from you about is the difference between female political participation here in the US verses the rest of the world.
What lessons can we learn from the countries that are ahead of us, in terms of participation?
I do see that as more women speak up there is more room for indivuality, both in style and substance. In political life, however, there is still a strong focus on appearance–endless discussion of hairstyles, clothing, the whole bit. Not only does it take time to deal with all that, but it takes people’s attention away from what a woman is saying. That’s why, Hillary, for a long time wore a black pants suit, so there would be nothing to say.
I have to add that women pay attention to all this in other women too–we have all been affected by gender stereotypes because this is the world we’ve grown up in. The challenge is to create more self awareness so that we recognize when we are judging other women in a way that we would not judge a man, as being too (I hate the word) “stident”, pushy, or aggressive.
I do think there is a difference – young Republicans, certainly at the staff level, seem to be immediately swept up into the conservative cult system of grooming – which I find both creepy and something to be somewhat envious of.
As I describe in the book, the U.S. is way behind other nations in the percentage of women we have in the Congress–16 percent. We rank 72nd amongst 142 countries. Iraq and Afgahnistan do better than we do–Iraq
Ah, “what is she wearing?”. A question that seems to take precedence over “what she is saying?”
A maddening double standard that I don’t think will go away anytime soon.
I wonder if there is a trap for women who are running, too. A need to overcompensate on being seen as “too much the woman”. I was for John Edwards who was free to be VERY altruistic and less militaristic than Hillary projected herself. More the female “principle.” Though when she more and more embraced his earnest style “populism” with blue collar workers … I appreciated that and wished Obama had gone that way more, too.
Who were your role models from the past and as your peers? Your mentors, Governor?
sorry, didn’t finish my reply.
Ira and Afgahnistan have a quotas–25%, Iraq achieved it and Afgahistan exceeded it at 27%. The country with the highest percentage is –surprise–Ruwanda–48.8 %. A senator there told me, ” We knew we had to do this (participate) for the survival of our children.”
I argue that we too, have to do this for the survival of our children and children all over the world. We can no longer indulge in the luxury of being bystanders.
It’s an unbelievable statistic. Do you think different types of governments are more welcoming of women than our democratic system? Where is the justification for that? Is it us? Or them?
Given how close Reagan and Thatcher appeared to be back in the 1980s, you’d think we would have moved past that by now in the US. But alas…just the reaction to the “how is Hillary wearing her hair” idiocy from the Clinton presidency through to this just passed primary season tells me we still have a long way to go, baby. *g*
I don’t know. From some of the outfits folks like Kit Bond wear, we can probably make an issue of men’s wardrobes as well.
Didn’t he wear a lavender shirt and plum tie during one of the FISA debates?
I had a number of role models–going way back to Eleanor Roosevelt because she was always out in the world trying to create change and speaking up for the powerless. Then there were people closer to home who had leadership roles I remember reading about Mary Bunting who was president of Radcliffe, married to a doctor, mother of four children, and I said, I could do that.
We can also take bits and pieces of other people’s lives and construct a patchwork that fits our own life.
I also had male mentors–and that was important.
In a way my mother was also a role model, a single parent (my father died when I was three) –I witness the tragedy of her life and wanted to do it differently.
Aloha, Gov. Kunin and Tracy! Welcome and thank you for spending time here at the Lake!
Do you find it ironic that Iraq has more women in their Parliament than we have in Congress…?
Hello! I don’t know if ironic is the word, more like embarrassing.
Most of the countries that have improved dramatically in recent years have enacted quotas. Argentina, for instance is at 40%. Most Latin American countries have quotas and have higher participation rates than North America.
A parliamentary system lends itself to quotas because parties have to make list and include women in those lists accoring to certain percentages.
Impossible to do this in our system, besides people hate the word “quota.”
I think we could work on a virtual quota by setting benchmarks and demanding that the political parties meet those levels by recruiting more women and then helping them to get elected. One idea is for all the women’s organizations like Emily’s List and the women’s campaign Forum and White House project, get together and develop a national strategy.
That’s my dream.
While Nancy Pelosi becoming Speaker of the House was a powerful symbol, she has failed to exercise any leadership and has been a real disappointment on issues ranging from Iraq to FISA to accountability to impeachment. When I look at most female politicians nowadays, with few exceptions I see more of the same. What is the difference or the improvement of a female DINO over a male DINO?
Oops, you’re right, poor choice of words…! ;-)
Do you think Hillary cracked the proverbial Glass Ceiling? Did her credible run for the roses embolden women?
Absolutely. And in these countries, women risk their lives when they serve in public life. I think in some other countries women have experienced war and violence and are determined not to let the men inflict that on them again.
Thank you. How touching about your mother and your family’s vulnerability. I like the patchwork idea, too.
And I love that you reminded me of appreciating male mentors. I love hearing when a man does a biography of a wonderful woman in history whose worth was overlooked back when. How many of us women pored over the genius of male authors during our educations.
I remember my generation did not participate in team sports as much as the girls today. And the girls have more coed sports opportunities. Something about working on teams teaches women to process conflict within the team or between teams and then get over it quickly with peer example and support and monitoring.
Girls in my generation often played one on one or in small groups… and things could get overly precious feeling wise and also grudgy. A complaint about women bosses and coworkers, at times, is that they hold grudges longer and can be cliquey in a negative way. The high school mean girls syndrome.
Governor, I loved the portion in your book when you talk about going to Washington, DC as Deputy Secretary of Education and being on the cocktail party circuit, introducing yourself and having others scan the room for someone “more important” to chat with.
It actually reminded me a good deal of one of my favorite TV shows, Battlestar Galactica, where in a striking turn of events the Secretary of Education, a woman, becomes President. Of course, all of that is fictional, but your recounting recalled some scenes from the show.
One thing that the program shows is the strength women have to get things done, even in the hardest of circumstances, a survival instinct that is, well, instinctual. However, it seems women are loathe to bring out that part of themselves unless absolutely necessary.
You talk about different styles of leadership in the book. Can you touch on your experiences “dealing with jerks” and playing “inside baseball”?
Nancy Pelosi is a great role model for women. Her problem is not gender but getting a veto proof and filibuster proof congress. She also has to unite Democrats, which range from arch consevatives to liberals.
There have been some changes that are positive–minimum wage, student loans, and more pressure Iraq. Women aren’t going to change the world because some are conservative and others are not, but if there were a greater percentage in the Congress , I think you would see significant change, especially on issues like health care, and family-work issues.
She came closer than any woman in history.No woman had ever won a primary before. I’m not sure she cracked the marble ceiling–any woman who runs for President in the future is going to be subjected to a lot of criticism, some of it based on gender.
On the plus side, she did show courage, the ability to pick herself up and continue to fight. I hope that more women will be encouraged by her race, but I think it’s too early too tell.
With all due respect, she also needs to understand what can and should be on and off the table. Blanket statements like “off the table” without knowing what’s buried in the muck aren’t helpful.
She may be a great role model but I don’t buy the veto proof argument. Even with a veto proof majority on paper, Blue Dogs will continue to side with Republicans and give them a working majority on many issues in the House. It is in how votes are brought up and structured that the Speaker has their greatest power and Pelosi has used hers to facilitate passage of the PAA and the FISA Amendments Act.
I had been part of the Edwards campaign staff – but as a woman, I was tremendously inspired by Senator Clinton’s grit and determination. She unexpectedly had me cheering for her at moments, even though I knew I’d be voting for someone else.
I hope the future allows her to continue to inspire women with her role in our democracy – whatever it may be.
Let’s not make this a discussion of Speaker Pelosi – we’re talking about women – not just one specific woman!
Thanks.
When I first went to a governor’s meeting, we posed for a photo. All the guys were chatting as I walked up to the stage and I thought they must be discussing important policy issues. As I got into the line up, I realized they were all talking about whose team had won or lost the night before. I had no clue. Then, I realized I was different.
I thought a lot about leadership style, but in the end, I learned to trust my own judgement. That is the most important thing–and possibly the hardest–is to be yourself. You can’t fake leadership. It is important to get the best information possible before you make a decision–and that is sometimes difficult–and to surround yourself with people you trust, but people who will also feel free to tell you that you’re wrong.
I had a woman chief of staff (she had also managed my campaign) and we had a very good relationship. we knew –often without saying anything–when gender was an issue. It was important to me to have someone in the room who understood that, so we could laugh about it later.
I think there is something to be said for the need for more than just 1 woman at the table.
One woman is a token. Two, three or more women actually can have a say in the discussion and be heard.
I can understand your frustration–but part of her thinking was that nothing else would get done in the Congress if the impeachment process got started.
Thank you, Tracy.
Sometimes one woman makes a difference–such as on the Supreme Court where sandra Day O’Conner and Ruth Ginsberg do and did react differently on some cases, most recently, Ginsberg, on Leadbetter v. Goodyear Tire and Rubber.
But a critical mass, usually around 30% can have a real impact.
That’s been true in the corporate world and in political bodies.
I can boast that the state of Vermont had the highest percentage of women in our state legislature, 37.8%, many women chair key committees and we have a woman speaker who is now running for Governor, Gaye Symington.
I knew I liked that state for some reason!
We’re almost at the end of our time with you. I’d like to ask one of the questions I like to ask all of my female role models – what do you know now that you wish you’d know then?
What advice do you have for the next generation of women who are just now beginning to understand their own power and take the reigns?
Tracy,
Thanks for giving me the chance to chat with you and others. This is the first time I’ve done this and it’s very interesting. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it. If you ever want to follow up on e-mail please feel free to do so.
I’ll say good-bye for now.
Madeleine
You did a fantastic job! We’d never have know it was your first time.
Thank you so much for spending some time with us here at FDL – you’ve certainly given us a lot to think about!
Governor Kunin,
Thank you for taking the time to spend this afternoon with us. And thank you for writing this book.
Thank you so much for this great talk!
Much Mahalo, Gov.! I fervently hope you drop by more often, you’ll be hard pressed to find a more informed electorate on the web…! 8-)
Advice is “Go for it.” Take the chance, get involved, speak up for what you believe in.
If it’s politics, participate in a campaign, either for a person, or a cause.
Practice public speaking, don’t be afraid to use your voice. Speak in simple declarative sentences, don’t raise your voice in a question at the end of a sentence, don’t preface your remarks with apologies.
It’s worth taking risks–much more satisfying than regretting the risks you did not take.
My last comment, time to cook chicken.
You brought up specific women in your introductory post. If you aren’t willing to discuss them and their records, it probably would have been fairer not to point them out to start with.
Too true. She was caught in the classic damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t fork.
Thank you, Governor. Very stimulating and inspiring discussion. Good luck to you.
Any relation to Stuart Symington?
Madeleine, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon.
Tracy, thank you for Hosting today’s book salon.
Everyone – great book, there is a link above in case you haven’t ordered one yet.
Thanks all.
Thanks, Bev! Look forward to doing it again!
Of course, the Congress did accomplish very little, one of the reasons its approval ratings are in the teens, lower even than George Bush’s. In some ways it would have been better off doing even less considering what it did and didn’t do on FISA and Iraq respectively. So an impeachment inquiry was not going to steal their time from more important issues. Indeed what could be more important than impeachment (regardless of its outcome)? What President has ever deserved impeachment more?
Thank you so much for this informative and inspiring discussion.
and thanks Tracy and Bev.