Back in November, I wrote a brief article describing how I expected the financial meltdown underway to continue, and how I expected it to impact the real economy. In March, I updated the article, looked at how many had come true and added 5 more predictions. It’s been 5 months since our last update and 10 months since the original set of predictions, let’s see how we’re doing. Below I’m reprinting the 15 predictions I made and I’ve put in bold those which have already occurred and added commentary when useful. I have also added 5 new predictions for the coming months.
1) Housing prices and sales will continue to decline. Expect 3 years before the bottom, as a very optimistic best case scenario.
Note: updating this slightly, I expect an average of at least 50% declines in the key markets where the run-ups were largest. Three years is best case, five years worst case.
2) Commercial real-estate will suffer a steep decline as well.
3) Consumer demand will drop. Unemployment will rise.
4) The US will go into a recession at best, a depression at worst. Expect first stagflation (high inflation and high unemployment), both because of the increased price of imports and deliberate pump priming by the Fed, then deflation, as asset prices collapse so hard they take everything else with them. The other likely scenario is stagflation followed by hyperinflation. Formal inflation numbers put out will become not just a joke amongst market-watchers, but amongst the actual population. Same thing with unemployment numbers.
Notes: NBER hasn’t declared a recesssion, but I’m going to go ahead and say that since by every definition except the formal "two quarters of GDP loss" one, the US is in recession, that it is. Especially since official US inflation figures tend to underestimate inflation and thus overstate GDP. Stagflation is more questionable, but certainly we have rising inflation and unemployment, even if it hasn’t reached early 80’s levels yet.
More After the Jump
5) The Asian economies are not going to "decouple", they are going to have their own financial crises and recessions. Yes, this includes China.
6) China’s stock market will collapse some time next year. China will go into a recession. There will be huge amounts of violence and the Chinese government will redirect anger towards the US and Japan.
Note: The Shanghai composite has lost over 50%.
7) Multiple banks will probably go insolvent. They are simply holding too much crap paper. There will be an extreme tightening of consumer debt of all kinds, including consumer loans, credit cards and mortgages. Even people with good credit will start having difficulty getting loans.
8) Protectionism is going to get stronger. Even if Clinton, a free trader, is put in power, by the time the 2010 Congressional elections are over no "free trade" bill will be able to pass Congress and in fact actual tariffs are likely to be put in place.
Note: Haven’t seen that much of this yet, 2010 is where I expect the real sea-change. However the WTO talks failed due to agricultural protectionism.
9) I wouldn’t be surprised, at some point, to see capital controls put in place to stop money-flight from the US.
10) When the full extent of how bad things are hits Joe Public, expect a move for reregulation of Wall Street and to reinstitute something similiar to Glass-Steagall.
Note: Nothing yet. So far the reaction to the crisis has been "socialize the losses, privatize the profits." However, again by 2010 I’m expected this to be much more real. The size of the bailout is going to be much larger than people expect.
March Predictions:
11) The government will have to bail out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac because they are insolvent. Minimum 500 billion dollars. Possibly much more.
Note: Already begun, but the estimate of how much it will cost is stupidly small. It is not going to cost only 25 million, or even 100 billion.
12) Large waves of government layoffs at the municipal and state levels as the inability to raise money cheaply and the reduced property taxes cascade through the system. (Yes, this is already starting to happen, so it’s kind of a safe prediction. But it’s going to get magnitudes worse. Many many municipalities are going to go bankrupt, and many states will be unable to maintain any but the barest of services.)
Notes: New York has announced massive revenue reductions and that belt tightening will be needed. Arnold, of course, is ordering massive layoffs and employment cutbacks.
13) The price of oil will actually drop as there is an actual demand reduction for oil. Don’t expect this to necessarily be reflected in pump prices, which are constrained by refinery capacity.
Note: this hasn’t happened, obviously, although there was a drop recently from a higher level. I’m going to stick with this prediction, however. US demand has dropped, the question now is whether demand drops in emerging markets – both China and India subsidize oil heavily, so those are the key markets. China will cut back after the Olympics, so I’d watch that time in particular.
14) The federal government will become the largest holder of mortgages, and in effect, owner of houses, in the country. By far. The Fed, which has been accepting sub-prime paper already, is going to wind up stuck with a lot of it, because some of the banks using it as "collateral" are not going to survive absent huge government bailouts.
Note: with the bailout of Fannie and Freddie and the Fed’s lending facility accepting CDOs at near face this is well on its way to reality. Arguably could have bolded this, but we’ll wait a bit longer and see if reality sinks in about what the Fed and Treasury are actually doing.
15) A serious collapse of the US stock market, probably by September at the latest. Maybe within a couple months.
Bonus Predictions
16) One of the Big 3 car companies goes under. Then it’ll probably get bailed out.
17) So many countries selling oil in Euros that the dollar is no longer the world’s sovereign currency
18) By the end of 2009, actual reported starvation/malnutrition deaths unless Congress and the new president step in with significant aid. The food banks aren’t keeping up and neither are food stamps.
19) Continued drops in illegal immigration, whether or not the new president continues having them rounded up in large numbers. The jobs just aren’t there for them anymore, especially with the crashing real-estate industry. Many of them made their living as casual construction labor.
20) A huge push to gut entitlements in 2009, no matter who is president. Even if the US quickly pulls out of Iraq, the deficit will be totally out of control, and hundreds of billions will be needed for bailouts. A rapid consensus will form that rather than increasing taxes significantly on the rich, or slashing expenses like the military R&D and equipment appropriations budget, that the real problem is people retiring at 65, poor people getting Medicaid and old folks who aren’t destitute receiving Medicare.
Commentary: Recessions and depressions get bad when vicious spirals really begin. A new vicious spiral for this economic mess is sputtering to life as we speak. New York recently announced that an emergency session would be needed as revenues have guttered while expenses are increasing. New York is one of the early warning signs on this, because of its exposure to the financial industry. In particular notice this delightful bit (h/t Mish):
“Revenues are dropping dramatically,” the governor added. At the start of May, the state budget office projected a cumulative deficit of $21.5 billion over the next three years. Now, just two months later, that estimate has risen to $26.2 billion — “a staggering 22 percent increase in less than 90 days.”
Mr. Paterson offered another example of the rapid deterioration in the state’s finances. In June 2007, he said, the 16 banks that pay the most on their business profits remitted $173 million to the state treasury. “This June, just a month ago, they sent us $5 million — a 97 percent decrease,” he said.
Patterson, as seems to be the habit (Schwarzenegger is threatening the same thing) is declaring that he will try and "fix" this by slashing costs.
Now the way this plays out is this—real estate prices drop. They cause a drop in home evaluations which cause a drop in tax income. Because housing values dropping puts a lot of people underwater on their mortgages, it also causes a lot of folks to default on their mortgages. Increased default rates make many tranches of the collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) which mortgages were based on go belly up. That causes banks and financial firms to either go belly up themselves or to extremely restrict lending at the very least. Reducing lending means businesses can’t get credit to hire new people or do expansions or even to service existing debt. At best that means no new jobs, in some cases it will mean businesses going under and throwing people out of work. Reduced lending also means less credit card debt, fewer consumer loans and so on (Chrysler recently decided to stop doing any car leasing). Meanwhile many people were "taking money out of their homes" and now that their homes are losing value, those lines of credit have become anchors. Many will lose their houses because of them, those who don’t certainly won’t be buying consumer goods on housing credit anymore.
Reduced employment, reduced business investment, reduced consumer credit in all its forms.
These things have a cascading effect—they all reduce spending, whether business or individual spending. Each time spending is reduced, another business reaches the red line and goes out of business, or it has to lay off unproductive staff, or it orders less goods from its suppliers who do one of the two. As all those people are laid off they cause a reduction in tax revenues (payroll, property, income) and they start spending a lot less. That leads to businesses being under even more pressure and the logical thing for them to do is to… cut more staff. I’m sure you see where this is going.
It’s a self-reinforcing vicious spiral. It is, actually, a huge part of what made the Great Depression as bad as it was. Now, the correct response to this is twofold—you clear the private books, and you maintain demand. As Keynes noted over 70 years ago, what that means is that when private actors can’t spend, the government should.
This doesn’t mean boondoggles, the Roosevelt administration had almost no fraud, literally magnitudes less than that which takes place routinely these days. It doesn’t mean not slashing programs—in fact slashing programs which don’t either provide relief or significant demand is very important so that money can be freed up to do other things. And it doesn’t necessarily mean running huge deficits, in fact, at least at the Federal level, it is entirely possible to balance the budget with a series of cuts and tax raises on corporations and the rich (it certainly makes little sense to allow oil companies to reap all the benefits of oil prices increases, since they are not caused by management—unless of course, oil executives want to argue that they were responsible in front of Congress? Hmmmm?)
If instead governments start slashing services and employment they contribute to the vicious spiral, and they do so in an even more pernicious fashion than private enterprises, because many government services tend to be countercyclical. In a downturn more people need social assistance, more people need Medicaid, and more people need police assistance too, as far as that goes. Pulling services when they are needed most makes a lot of things much, much worse.
But, while the Federal government has a fair bit of room to move, state and municipal governments are a lot more limited. That means that in some cases federal aid to states and municipalities, always temporary and tied to specific economic conditions (i.e. ending automatically when tax receipts recover) will almost certainly be necessary. Aid should, of course, be tied to a specific state’s conditions. If California, for example, refuses to get rid of propositions which forbid its state government from taxing effectively, it is not the Federal government’s job to tax the rest of the country to bail out Californians who voted not to help themselves or their neighbours.
And in every state and the country overall it is going to be necessary to increase progressive taxation. The rich have received the vast majority of the gains of the last economic expansion, and indeed of every expansion since the 70’s. The middle class, on the other hand, is literally broke. They can’t afford to be taxed anymore. And taxing the poor is pretty pointless, as well as cruel. The Reaganomics deal, that if the rich got richer, they’d make it good for everyone else, was broken—by the rich themselves. Everyone else hasn’t gotten richer.
Calls for government to slash their way out of this, such as Mish’s incredibly cruel California budget proposal with its suggestion that poor people with liver and heart problems should just up and die, are misguided as well as harsh. They will make the situation worse, not better, and they will do it quickly. Again, this doesn’t mean that no slashing of expenses is necessary. At the federal level I’d personally slash the military budget very heavily, for example, end the Iraq war and end large numbers of other programs, while providing savings by bringing most outsourced jobs back into the government (because yes, private contractors do usually cost more.)
Finally, the idea that government failed and that’s why there’s this disaster needs to dealt with. Government failed because regulatory agencies were gutted and anti-regulatory zealots were put in charge of them. It is laughable to suggest that a company like Fannie is innately flawed and will inevitably fail when it operated since 1938 with minimal problems. Fannie became a problem not because it was a public institution but once its executives started rewarding themselves with huge bonuses and spending tens of millions of dollars lobbying to stop the House from providing any oversight.
Government doesn’t work if you don’t want it to work. Period. For most of the last 30 years the US has been run by people who figured government couldn’t work. Even when a Democrat was sort of in charge, this basic ideology reigned. Glass-Steagall, for example, was repealed under Clinton.
So now the response to companies doing things they shouldn’t isn’t to stop them before they kill again, it’s to wait till the pile of corpses is so large it threatens to suffocate everyone, then remove the bodies at government expense, bailing out the responsible parties (socialize the losses) so that they can kill again (privatize the profits.)
How Bad’s This Going to Get?
Much, much worse. The bottom line is this, most estimates are severely underestimating how bad the situation is. The underlying real-estate market is likely to move as much as 50% down in the key bubble markets. That’s more than is being built into most assumptions. And the structured debt, based not just on real-estate but on interest rate swaps, credit defaults and much more besides, is likely worth even less than that. Because it was leveraged, it will fail at higher rates than the underlying assets. We got two glimpses of this—first when Merrill sold a bunch of CDOs for 22 cents on the dollar (5.5 cents if you count the fact that they loaned much of the necessary money for the purchase)—second when the National Australia Bank wrote off 90% of the value of its conduit loans (h/t Agonist).
Add to this the fact that most profits were booked the year of the sale, but the liabilities can still come back to haunt you if the income stream doesn’t perform, and while executives may have gotten their bonuses booking year, investors and taxpayers are about to find out that when there’s an income stream it really does matter if that stream keeps delivering.
These things interact in a vicious spiral as discussed above, because each time something drops in price it makes further price drops more likely. The end result is that the inverse pyramid of structured debt obligations and other structured securities will keep resting on a narrower and narrower base. It’s not just de-leveraging that is occuring, actual destruction of real wealth at the base is occuring. Each time it does, the leverage ratio increases again, and de-leveraging has much further to go. And, yes, you guessed it, that too is a self-reinforcing cycle.
So take most estimates of the cost of the bailout (usually around 1 trillion) and double them (to two trillion), at least. Expect job loss figures to keep getting worse, and expect years to go of a deflationary/inflationary riptide where the cost of your assets is going down, the value of your wages is going down, but the cost of things you must have and can’t avoid, like food, energy and healthcare are going up. There’ll be ups and down (in particular I expect oil prices to drop, then rise again) but the overall trend will be clear – your fixed expenses in real terms will be going up and your real income will either be going down or not going up as fast as your expenses.
Meanwile, since the monetary base of the US is its housing stock, eventually stagflation will probably turn into generalized deflation. But my guess is that we’ve got till at least 2010 for that fun.
It’s bad. It’s going to get worse. Governments are going to slash at the wrong time and instead of demanding that private actors clean up their books and take their losses, Treasury and the Fed are doing everything they can to aid and abet Banks and Wall Street in covering up how bad the losses are. This will mean years and years of zombie-banks, fictionally solvent, who actually have very little lending capacity. If they are completely bailed out, it will be done at the expense of taxpayers, and probably on the basis of largely regressive taxes, and cutbacks in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid (this is the current Washington (village) consensus, that "entitlement" programs are the problem—not the debt, tax cuts for the rich, the Iraq war and a bloated military budget.)
What Can You Do?
First of all, remember the iron law: TANSTAAFL. There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch. Every time the Treasury, or Congress, or the Fed bails out some bank or Wall Street or a GSE or someone else remember that it’s your money they’re using. Every cent they spend making sure that no financial executive who made millions isn’t left behind, is a cent they won’t be spending on anything else you care about, and since it’s a cent paid for with deficit money, it’s a cent (or, oh, a trillion or two trillion dollars) that you’re going to have to pay for. And fundamentally, it’s being used to bail out executives who awarded themselves multi-million dollar bonuses for years while running their companies into bankruptcy.
Second, on a personal level—get debt free. Make sure you are on good terms with your spouse, your family and your neighbors. Make sure your friendship circle is healthy. Consider trying to make your home as energy independent as possible or even putting in some energy production (brownouts are going to be more common going forward). Reduce expenses. If you’re in a position to make money right now, do so, because pretty soon you may not be able to. Create a garden if you can (even apartments can have small gardens.) I prefer not to give financial advice, but I will say this: if you live in the US, work in the US, get paid in US dollars, you have more than enough financial exposure to the US. That said, in a real general global downturn there are no obvious safe places to put your money, which is why I recommend the non-financial steps above (especially making sure your marriage is happy. Really. Nothing is worse for your finances than breaking up.)
Third—on a political and social level. Get involved. Get your voice heard at the local level. Be active. There are going to be a lot of people who want to balance the budget squarely on the shoulders of the poor and middle class, who are going to, like Mish, decide that if you need a heart transplant and you can’t afford one, you should die. Outside of die-hard libertarians everyone knows that tax rates are going to go up significantly to pay for the drunken spending and shooting spree of the last eight years, and to bail out all the executives who made themselves rich by driving the economy and their companies into the gutter. The rule here is the same as in poker—if you don’t know who the sucker is, it’s you. And since you, yes you, have been the sucker for the last thirty years, in which time ordinary wage earners haven’t had a single pay increase in real terms, while the rich have increased their income and wealth to gilded age levels, odds are you are the sucker. The rich took the money, but they don’t intend to get stuck with the bill.
So, TANSTAAFL. Every free lunch some executive gets is a lunch they took from you and your children. This is no longer a theoretical argument, this is fact. Because the bailouts are with your money. And I don’t think most of you got rich in the last eight years, did you? But the people who made all the decisions at the firms being bailed out, they did.
So get involved and stay involved. Eternal vigilance isn’t just the price of eternal liberty, it’s also the price of prosperity. Everyone can be prosperous but not everyone can be rich. And the economic collapse happening right now is happening because Americans felt that government was something they didn’t have to watch closely, that it was the problem, not the solution, and that private business didn’t need to be watched like a hawk. They felt that Wall Street making itself sickeningly rich was like some guy striking it rich in the casino "nothing to do with me, Jack". But it wasn’t, and it isn’t, and neither government nor business operated with concern for the public good. Let’s learn the lesson, because we’re paying the price and will keep paying it for years to come.
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Aloha, Ian!
From your original #10. How is this supposed to happen? MSM ain’t gonna tell Joe squat. You’re unnervingly prescient…
Where are my manners?! Hi, and thanks for your post. As always, lots of food for thought.
3 year housing decline starting from when you first gave the prediction or starting now?
Isn’t that a large contributor to the ranks of the unemployed, virtually a direct correlation…?
Chrysler redux?
I think China can go lower
September for a collapse I say August
Thanks Ian, depressing as your outlook is, at least your honest about what we are facing. This isn’t psychological and we can’t “Snap out of it” I really value your advice and am grateful you care to share it.
It’s a big help that you’ve revisited and updated your previous predictions.
Losing your job or house, not being able to afford your bills, that tends to cut through. You don’t need the media to tell you that.
From when I first gave the prediction. That’s best case though. 4 or 5 wouldn’t suprise me at all.
Yep.
That would be the wrong step in trying to manage the impending gloom and doom…!
That’s probably the single most important sentence in your entire post. It is, of course, EXACTLY what the banks and credit offering institutions fear most of all.
A question raises itself for folks like me, tottering on the brink of retirement. I currently stick 10% of my gross into a 401k. Should I continue to do that or is the whole shooting match gonna implode? Should I cash out and bury it all in the back yard?
Heh, the Serta Safe, Marion…! ;-)
Thanks Ian. Depressing, though.
However, the majority of Joe Publics don’t lose the house, they just suffer and cut back on pizza and wonder what’s happening to them. I work with a lot of Jane Publics who have no idea in the world what’s going on.
I’m betting Ford and Chrysler go under unless gas gets cheaper quick.
We just had to start a brand new 401k in our shop in September 2007, due to going from being under the hospital’s umbrella to being a private practice. Imagine my delight when I got the statement that told me that my account is currently worth less than my individual contributions, to say nothing of my employer’s match… I’m serious (sorta!) with my question about the Serta Safe!
So we get to bail Chrysler out TWICE? Bitchin’… Who’d do that for thee or me?
Excellent post. We. Are. Fucked.
One slight correction:
How will this bad economy effect hedge funds and financial companies can they all survive in a world where nobody wants to lend money? Also shouldn’t interest rates rise soon and by how much?
I do recall your mentioning that in prior threads, M’dear! I’m concerned about my Army pension too…!
Bernanke and Paulson are carrying out the Bush policy of using bandages and small talk to stanch an arterial bleed. The goal is to do as little as possible and leave it for the next President to deal with it. Obama’s economic advisers are Clinton holdovers as far as I can see and I don’t know how activist they would be in re-regulation. I can not think of a worst President for the economic problems we have than John McCain. If he were President the chances of a depression would be better than 50-50.
One point is that eventually slumping real estate prices are going to impact property taxes which are still a or the principal source of funding for K-12 education in the US.
Thanks, corrected with a h/t.
Chrysler never used their bailout. The loan guarantees provided by the Federal government to Lee Iaccoca were never utilized. So, no redux. But I’d bet on them — the Germans surely took what was worth taking in the divorce.
Inflation indexed bonds are probably the safest place. But make sure the bonds are backed by someone safe. I believe the US government offers some. The returns suck, of course, but you shouldn’t lose much value.
Hey we have to keep nonunion Autoworkers in foreign countries employed. I bet that if we do bailout the big three American Union jobs will be cut.
Anybody who’s staring down the barrel of a word like “pension” or “retirement” is probably sweating bullets. I, at least, still have a job and a private client who pay sweetly and on time. 5 or 10 years from now, depending on how accurate Ian is, I may be well and truly screwed…
Digg this
It’s going to get harder and harder not to notice. But it’s true that by the time they notice the hole is going to be very deep. People especially tend to notice massive declines in their home values, since for most people that’s their real retirement fund.
Thanks! I’ll see what funds are offered in the new plan.
At least Ford is already retooling their assembly lines for smaller and more fuel efficient cars, but, is it too little, too late? I was amused that CNN had a piece up talking about GM trying to spin-off the Hummer division…
Thanks, egregious. I was Digg #3.
Interest rates will probably keep rising. How much, I don’t know. A lot depends on who wins the election, my guess is that Bernanke will be become a born again inflation fighter if Obama wins. But there’s an inflation/deflation riptide going on and inflation numbers may start dropping in some key areas, especially if the government is smart enough to end ethanol subsidies and if oil prices also drop.
Actually, given the way the big 3 are slashing costs by slashing workers, I’m almost not sure there’s any point bailing them out. They are trying to get to the point where they manufacture almost nothing in the US. Given that’s the case, why bother. 10 more years and if they even survive Toyota will be a more American company than GM.
Heh. Pretty much the very same day that happened the Savannah Daily Disappointment had an article about how Hummer owners loved their gas guzzlers and would never give them up, even if gas went to $10 a gallon. Go figure…
Lest you think I’m funnin’ with y’all, here’s the article.
Ethanol subsidies need to stop pronto, however, we should also spurn the Brasilian ethanol too, considering the fact they’re shredding the lungs of our planet in the Amazon basin to produce the sugar cane…!
I’m really pretty much tabula rasa about the subject, but didn’t I read somewhere that switch grass (a weed?) is a better source of biofuel? Hell, if weeds work I’ve got a whole lawn full of them… [joking…joking]
Heh, I loved this…
But even after their neighbors’ homes are sold at huge discounts, it will still take a while before they realize their own house value has dropped precipitously. It’s going to be an anguished time when that second shoe drops.
I heard something alarming on Air America Ring of Fire about Blackwater making friends with Obama while they were guarding him on his trip … and though “they” are being sued, big money contracts now, I mean BIG money pouring in, and they are getting contracts galoore like setting up in San Diego for the WAR ON DRUGS …. and to be continued into the next administration. Mercenary and war profiteering opportunism. More disaster capitalism. Anyone hear about Obama’s stance. I hope this is not true. Say it ain’t so.
and upvote on reddit
Sigh… So you see why I call it the Daily Disappointment?!
Any linky to anything?
It may be a blip but oil is falling this will ease the inflation figures.
I heard that someone overheard him saying that Blackwater got a bum rap….the rest of it sounds like McCain’s plan to use military tactics to control neighborhoods….
Sort of a melding of godawfulness…
We are in such deep shizzola…
Living in a tourist-based economy, we’re already feeling the pinch from unoccupied hotel rooms and failing tour services… Already, we’re recording a 50% drop in occupancy rates compared to last year’s numbers…
Sorry… I will google and be back. I just caught the tail end of an interview on Ring of Fire I think it was.
If the GM Volt does have battery problems like batteries catching on fire then expect GM to lose market confidence all the people at the Google GM financial site are pinning all their hopes on the Volt.
Does Ford have a deal to use Toyota’s new 3rd generation hybrid technology when it comes out next year? Or will they be stuck with outdated tech for their hybrids?
Thats true economically but not politically.
I was looking for the Obama/Blackwater stuff on Google news…there were a bunch of stories earlier…instead I came up with this interesting article by Naomi Wolf to Egypt…Hmmmm
http://dailystaregypt.com/arti…..leID=15446
I agree with you but Obama and McCain will bailout th first automaker to go under I’m not sure they can afford to save the second though.
I wonder if Obama will keep Paulson around, just to have someone in view to point to when it all goes terribly wrong.
boy oh boy….. what a cheery post…… guess I will go grocery shopping… comfort food will do it………
Guess they should figure out if they’re going under and get it over with fast then. First to the door!
Now the conspiracy theorists are saying the economy is in bad shape.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/t…..fghanistan
Telegraph by Editor Toby Harnden — about Obama’s potential “Rosie O’Donnell” moment (could someone explain that to ME? thanks)
If I could afford a bullet, I might shoot myself.
Cheers, Ian…
This post should be required reading by everyone running for office in the USA – and elsewhere.
A world without government bailouts if we help Ford will we still have enough money to bailout the banks and Freddie and Fannie after all at some point China and Japan will stop loaning us money.
Which if Ian is right about the Chinese market might happen soon.
What happens to the financial companies and hedgefunds if they think that there will be no more big bailouts?
Of course they were nice to him. They’d be fools not to put their most charismatic operatives on him with orders to kiss his ass till their tongue was on his tonsils. If he was taken by it, he’s a fool.
The KGB was great at bodyguard security too.
Get the hell out of paper assets (stocks, bonds, mutual funds), unless you invest in Inverse ETFs (Exchange Traded Funds; they go up when the Dow, or S&P, or NASDAQ, or the Financial Index, or the Real Estate Index goes down.
Buy gold and silver bullion and coins. Invest in foreigh currencies (like Swiss francs or Norwegian krone, which are very strong; see Everbank online).
No, just folks that can add and subtract. Major economic dislocations are huge and can be seen literally years in advance. The problems that caused the housing bubble were well known in economic circles by 2003. Excessive speculation in the oil markets was discussed in a Senate report by mid 2006.
One reason any depression will be hard on the American public vs the great depression is that there are 3 or more generations who have no clue where their food come from. In the 30’s most were one generation from the farm and many were on the farm. Everyone had a garden, my grandmother had chickens on their city lot in Sioux City Iowa…… with a big garden….
There are generations of Americans who think food comes in plastic wrap & boxes….. have no clue of the labor and just how food is grown…
With the average distance that items in a grocery store travel around 1300-1500 miles…..that whole process is going to have to change…. This will be THE critical part of this depression. If you live in an area that can move towards local grown food nimbly then that area may fair better than others….. Large areas of some of the primo truck garden areas in the Phoenix valley are now suburbia…..mostly vacant but still paved over and useless…..
Ian… do you think at some point some of these subdivisions will be pulled down and turned back into farm land?
Any car company going under indeed any big bailout must happen when Congress is in session and the President at the WH so that they can pressure lawmakers.
a few counter predictions of my own, which are in contrast to yours ian;
I disagree unless you are talking about real dollars, inflation will in my opinion create a scenario where everyone will realize they have to spend their money on hard assets, most will almost definitely turn to real estate imho
I see a leveling off this year of the decline and as people begin to think the fall bottoms, I believe there will be a sharp increase…I think another year of decline and that will be the bottom for most markets
this one is a “sort of” as far as I am concerned…mom and pop stores are indeed struggling however people are aggressively turning away from the monoliths like home depot, I recognize a clear desire for the locals to give their business to the locals, therefore I don’t see a big sell off of the small commercial assets
however big commercial concerns might actually decline and I think that property will indeed drop in value
I’m surprised this prediction comes form you, we have already been in recession for some time, we aren’t going to “go into one”, we’ve been there and as far as everything I can see we are in fact already in depression, though obviously not as severe as the great depression, a depression never the less
for instance, everyone in my industry and all industry’s I have occasion to discuss, we are paying more for raw material and having to charge less for our finished product, I am currently selling product at loss just to move inventory and keep my staff working, that cannot last more then one more season
your other predictions I agree, however do not have any kind of first hand knowledge or experience to offer a valid opinion
btw;
ianae
Individual action will not do it. We need techniques to organize and act together on the internet. We need to reject hierarchy because our leaders have betrayed us, and we, acting together, are the only alternative. It goes against everything we have been trained to believe, but it’s way past time for us to begin thinking for ourselves.
Would believe that SS would have been inner circle and that Blackwater would have been more distant. Blackwater dealings would have been w/SS
I think many will die on the vine. Others will turn into real cities as their stupid zoning laws are overturned by citizens saying “hell no, I need to grow food/have a business”. In general I expect density to increase, and the exurbs in particular to thin out and contract. Energy prices will not necessarily increase as much as people think in the long run, but there will be a large dislocation in between as scale/research effects kick in on non oil power. I also expect a lot more local manufacturing and food production, especially for inland communities (shipping on, er, ships, will remain pretty cheap. But land transportation will not.)
Expect trains to come back in a big way. If you’ve got the time to do the research and a 15 year window, that’s not a bad place to put money.
I met a guy from Canada this past week visiting NYC and he confided he was trying to get a job and move here and I blurted out, “Why would you want to do that???!!!”
There is a great off-Broadway play in NYC called EASY OUTS, a resurrected anti-Vietnam War political comedy about a guy who draft dodges in hopes of finding higher spiritual ground in a small peaceful neutral country, and winds up getting drafted into their army.
It is hilarious yet chilling in its satire about the corruption and mad violence in the world and how this theme resonates even louder for today. Crazy CIA men, black marketeers, Mugabe-types, rebels, etc.
For any New York City-ers, it is a fun yet compelling watch. Here is a review of it. They “nail it”. Maybe as with Colbert and Stewart, comedy is the only way to wrap our minds around the insanity and its momentum?
http://www.nytheatre.com/nythe…..t=easy7128
And he would be ill-advised to come home and say anything bad about Blackwater. They are an insidious force that operates domestically, too. Cofer Black and Eric Prince are just about the most dangerous non-elected Americans I can think of.
Blackwater’s here to stay.
THANK FRIGGIN GOODNESS!
however the ONLY way those tariffs will present positive return is IF they are directed at product which allows countries to do business without paying their own bills, their social bills as well;
fair wages, health insurance, collective bargaining, slave labor, child labor, retirement
those are all issues which MUST be addressed through tariff
not if democracy and our republic are to survive, I cannot accept this as a fact and will work to insure it will not be here to stay
Speaking of Blackwater…
We’ll see. Historically similiar real-estate crashes have taken as long as I suggest and have seen numbers in the vicinity of what I suggest. Real estate is not always a good investment, that is a modern American myth.
Commerical real-estate is already experiencing huge vacancy rates. For example, retail or office rates. I think I’ll stick by that one, it’s not even really a prediction anymore, it’s happening right now.
4) Check the notes: this is a prediction that has come true already, according to what I wrote. Also bolded predictions are predictions I believe have already been fulfilled.
I don’t expect to get every prediction right, especially some of the ones that involve politics. But so far I’m pretty happy with my batting average.
Until we put his a*s in prison….. but until then…..
it is wise to know where to look for those things which will use ALL their resources to take Obama down…… IF Obama was strong and made frequent statements on media de-consolidation with deep regulation then there is an enemy who would do everything and anything to take him down…… know who you can criticize now vs who can be taken on after elected……
Think that I have heard that exports are doing fairly well at this time and are keeping GDP growth barely positive though I never trust figures.
This is due to devalued dollar which the converse of is that things bought from abroad are higher.
Shutting down mercenary firms is really really easy once you’re in power. Just don’t let them have any money and take away their right to own their toys then have the DOJ go after them and insist on corporate and officer liability for criminal actions. And if they don’t like it, well, accidents happen overseas to people who get on the wrong side of the US military. And a lot of soldiers would love it if some “accidents” happened to Blackwater. They are not well liked in the military.
Ian — why are you predicting brownouts? The US is not short of capacity, investments are being made, and utilities are earning regulated rates of return. Where’s the problem?
Obama needs to take off the gloves and list every Republican failure of the last 8 years and the fallacies of conservative ideology. Show them for the incompetent, anti-democratic authoritarian jag offs that they are.
From Bloomberg.com in 2004:
Fortunately, the surge is a great success.
They certainly didn’t endear themselves when they detained an Army platoon at gunpoint as few months ago in Iraq…! ;-)
since you are far more knowledgeable then I
Massive underinvestment in infrastructure – not generation, but delivery. I expect repeated system failures. However, this is your field and if you tell me I’ve got it wrong, I’ll listen.
Go here for the view that says the grid is near to cracking. I suppose I should have called it blackouts, since strictly speaking there will be enough energy, you just won’t be able to get it.
Exactly the same tactic that brought down the Soviet Union…! De Ja Vu all over again…?
A few relevant points from Lawrence Britt’s list for fascism: re Blackwater type privitization (dangerous bedfellows, government and a business/private military)
the money is somewhere, it hasn’t evaporated and those with those dollars should begin to invest while inflation is still constrained, they can’t expect that to last long and I think they will begin to invest those dollars
that will of course result in higher inflation, feeding the beast
So do we hope he was just being polite and just minimally seduced?
Sure wish I had more confidence in Obama’s IQ — “integrity” quotient.
Eh, you could be right, we’ll see. This is going to take a few years to play out yet, and you might be right on real estate.
Those Commie Chinese are turning into first class globalists. Here is a classic example of undercutting competition, then obtaining a monopoly. The Chinese control the world’s production of abscorbic acid, that is vitamin C. The Chinese dirty air pollution has caused the Vitamin C factories to be shut down. I guess vitamins will cost more. Of course, Chinese produced Heparin has cost at least 21 lives.
http://www.lawyersandsettlemen…..axter.html
Wow. You paint a picture somewhat worse than Nouriel Roubini, who was considered one of the crazy pessimist party poopers before 2006. And things have turned out somewhat worse than his predictions so far. So, unfortunatley, I think you are in the right territory.
As Krugman (another party pooper) said recently, this recession will be “L-ish” It will not be short, only question left is how severe it will be.
I only have two quibbles. I don’t think the collapse of the Doha talks means much of anything (and I think Ian said similar in a recent post). But, the fact that they have officially ‘failed’ up may clear the way for unwise protectionism if the recession is bad and long enough. If McCain wins, the situation will become dicey because the US will continue to try to stuff disguised corporate investment insurance and rent-seeking IP protection into talks and call it ‘free trade’ So progress will be difficult.
And second. Individually everyone should reduce debt, and build up a good asset cushion. But in the absnce of effective fiscal policy, these individual efforts might make things worse. It will be part of the counterproductive aggregate demand destruction process along with state and local government efforts to slash spending.
Sensible coordinated fiscal and monetary policy is key. Under Cheney/Bush we have had extremely inefficient and in some cases very counterproductive fiscal policies. Monetary policy improvised desperately to keep things from falling apart, and under Greenspan, some of it was ideologically driven -unfortunately it was a doubtful ideology. Bernanke has a more realistic grasp of things and I am glad Greenspan is gone.
The fiscal stimulus policies of the Cheney/Bush adminstration were massive, and should have produced a quick recovery from a mild recession in 2000/2001. But, they consisted mainly of giving lots of money to very rich people at exactly the wrong time. So we had an initially mild recession that was prolonged by bad fiscal policies. That also lead to either worst or second worst recovery (from one of the mildest recessions) since WWII.
Sequential asset bubble management as a stimulus tool arose from that situation. Greenspan (and to a lesser extent Bernanke) thought they knew what they were doing. But they didn’t.
McCain will continue the Cheney/Bush polcies, except worse.
The GOP has to be not only defeated, but crushed in November, otherwise things will not improve.
On this AirAmerica show they were talking about Blackwater getting oodles of funding to fight the war on drugs and deal with immigration.
ah, I published and the complete question didn’t come through
I meant to ask if you thougt as I do, that we are already in a depression and if so, how deep will it likely progress before we rebound
Yeah, Doha’s not that significant. Just a sign that protectionism is generally on the rise in the world. 10 years ago the 3rd world would not have stuck together on it, but would have caved. The Washington consensus isn’t quite dead, but it’s riddled with bullets and losing blood fast.
It’s still plugging away with its own Tommy Gun though.
ian, I realize the way that was published looked like I disagreed with what you had to say and I do not…sorry the post didn’t publish the way I intended which is re posted in my 93
And yet, right now, right where I live, they’ve dug up a whole lot of green space and they’re paving it over for a Target shopping center.
*sigh*
Just what we need, another shopping center. And all that green space is lost, the top soil stripped off the land, to be paved over with burning hot blacktop.
Lots of workers working thee now, tho. And I’ll be able to walk to the grocery store.
I wonder if McInsane wants to utilize Blackwater in a similar fashion as Iraq in blighted urban areas…
I waver between depression and 70/80’s style oil shock. But I tend toward depression. Some folks I respect though think this can be pulled out and we can have one more kick at the can before we go down for the big dive.
I think all our Nuke plants are a decade over their designed lifespan at some point retrofits won’t cut it.
Also thanks to grandfather clauses on air quality laws a lot of power companies are still running very old inefficient plants since they do not have to pay for modern expensive air cleaning equipment for them just how much longer can they last? Who knows?
Thanks to Harvard Business school grads you get promoted if you keep expenses down at plants one way to do that is skip or go cheap on scheduled repairs.
There were some nationwide power outages a few years back given Bush’s enforcement record of anything that could cost a company money I am not convinced the problems have been fixed.
But I am as always open to persuasion.
Dang, why can’t we pull a typical Repug maneuver and just shoot the messenger…? Just kidding, Ian…! *g*
What is going to happen w/ the whole medical sphere?
Ok we have a problem what can we do about it?
Or rather what should government do I’m already cutting back expenses got a garden and getting better insulated windows.
Hi Ian and Pups,
Just read the without reading comments, but how does all of this chaos look for the republican party? Teehee.
I can’t help mentioning somethig that might sound downright un-American, but actually it is not. The whole idea that long term large increases in the relative asset value of housing is good, well, that is totally wrong and backwards. It is a disguised asset bubble management psychology, and unfortunately I think it was a part of Bush’s idea of “the ownership economy”.
Rising real housing prices, relative to other goods and services, are bad, in my opinion. Now, if you have some way of living that does not require shelter, then they may be good for those who can live without shelter. You can invest in housing, make a killing, and buy lots of other cheaper stuff. If you have found a way to live without shelter you can substitute out of it.
But no one can do that any more than they can substitute out of food clothing or water.
Why does anyone feel good that their house has risen in value? You sell it at a high price, and feel rich. But you have to spend a fortune on another house.
Of course if rental costs stay low, then you can sell your house and rent. But then that means the rise in value of your house is part of an asset bubble, since rents and value of housing must move together over the long run.
So, to be sustainable, then increases in the asset value of homes would move along with increases in rent. Large long term increases in both rents and housing values would be as bad as large long run increases in the cost of food and clothing.
So, *cheap* housing that does not zoom up in value is what would be good for the economy. Not expensive housing that skyrockets in value.
The moral, is that incoherent ideas that are not consistent with any sustainable long run economic equilibrium have been driving fundamentals of economic policy during Cheney/Bush era. And we see the result.
post
I personally believe the solution is simple, re-invest in our infratstructure, NOT THROUGH PRIVATE ENTERPRISE, re-employ our society, REDISTRIBUT THE WEALTH FROM THE WEALTHY BACK TO THE MIDDLE CLASS, and of COURSE, tariff those country’s product that are imported to our country when they refuse to pay their own bills, including their social OBLIGATIONS
OH, let me add, invest in the new industries we need to survive, those that will reverse global warming and produce an energy independant infrastructure
this will NOT cost money, it will DEFINATELY present a positive return
Agreed. Increased housing costs are a big part of what makes the US uncompetitive. In the long run *cough* dropping real estate prices to something more reasonable is good. I even favor getting rid of tax exemptions for home owning and making it neutral to renting.
We should chat. Just glancing through the article, I see lots of common misconceptions. It is true there that transmission investment has tended to lag generation construction, but that is being correct both administratively by the RTOs (the Regional Transmission Organizations that operate much of the Eastern Interconnectio) and through better pricing of the effects of congestion. The pricing solution has made the cost of managing congestion (via redispatch) much more transparent and as a result both utilities and regulators can now see what it costs either to upgrade the lines and/or build more generation (or more demand response) in the congested areas.
The map used in the article gets the problem wrong. There has always been congestion near Boston, into SW Connecticut, into NJ from Western Pa and down into the Delmarva Peninsula. The New England, New York and PJM RTOs have ordered new transmission built into those regions, the lines are under construction, and the costs are being mostly socialized across the region (much to the chagrin of local areas that may not benefit as much).
Important to remember that while generation became competitive in many eastern states (but not the South or West, except for California), the transmission remained a monnopoly under regulated utilities. The fact that Connecticut chose not to have its utilities build sufficient transmission into SW Conn was their choice, though they now blame the problem on the Feds and deregulation. That’s false, because the lack of transmission preceding markets and is independent of fed actions. The NE RTO ordered them to fix it, after a regional (all six NE states) planning process, and ordered everyone to pay for it (Maine hates this).
None of the problems described in the article was caused by restructuring; congestion is a function of dispatch and is fixed by dispatch, routinely, every day. The markets just showed how to price it and make its costs transparent.
Also, there is assumption that the grid was not built for the long-distance transmission that happened under restructuring. I think the argument is overstated, because before restructuring — before 1996, eg., — utilities always used the interconnected grid to make system sales and purchases to/from other utilities. Cross-regional rading is easier now under the RTO rules, and pancaked rates across each service area were eliminated, so there has been change. But that doesn’t mean the current system can’t handle the flows. It can, and does, every day.
Flows travel freely all over the Eastern Interconnection (half the US and much of Canada), and transactions are routine between MISO (Midwest operator) and PJM (mid-Atlantic operator) and are often made with not need for redispatch, which means the lines are all operating UNDER the safe operating limits. When flows threaten to go OVER the operating limits, the two RTOs routinely redispatch generation, to keep flows within limits. Happens all the time with not problem. That doesn’t mean the grid is underbuilt; it just means it’s cheaper to redispatch generation than to build more transmission.
RTO plan the grid on vast regional basis, and then the order construction of grid upgrades needed for reliability. This is standard for all RTOs. Local transmission is paid locally; regional transmission is paid across the region (socialized), and billions in investment are under construction now.
Yes a Positive return on investment which after 7 years of Bush would be a welcome change:)
Make John Edwards attorney general. Let’s get some accountability going, here. Elect uncompromising Congresspeople and get rid of the dead corrupted wood. Uncle Ted and Senator Sprinkles … time to take the pulpit away from the bluffers and the TAKERS.
Get the foxes out of the henhouse. They are outnumbering the hens.
That could be a political slogan
And I should have added: this is a great post. Your predictions are coming true, and the analysis is understandable and makes sense. Valuable stuff.
As Ian has proposed, and/or Krugman, nationalize Fannie and Freddie… Rent control would alleviate some of the impending pain…! After all, Shelter is one of the four basics that fuel human basic instincts along with the others that you mention… Food, clothing and water…!
a VERY good slogan at that, let’s send it off to obam’s camp
In 171 days it will be the President’s fault. Of course, the president will be a Democrat…
Huh. Good to know. Always nice to get it directly from someone who has the actual real expertise. And yeah, at some point I desperately need to pick your brains on energy issues.
Thanks Ian.
Yes how does all this chaos look to Republicans who invested in housing because they trusted him? Who invested in big financial companies and hedgefunds because the GOP is suppose to be good for big business.
Never mind people who invested in car companies because they thought that Bush would win the war in Iraq and gas was going to $1 a gallon in which case SUV sales should have gone up.
What is the financial cost of investing in Hal instead of Vestas:)
allow me to repeat the pleas
and upvote on reddit
but who’s counting? ;)
Seconded.
Nationalize our freaking oil. Why does a Corp. get our own natural resources?
Ain’t gonna happen. If I own rental property and I start to hurt I’m gonna raise your rent. This was my experience as a renter until the last place I would tolerate being sold out from under me was. Renters will always get screwed one way or another because they have no power or control over where they live.
Need to not call it “nationalize” … or Repubs will go berserk… must sugar coat until January and avoid that communistic word.
It’s good news for John McCain
Uhoh, I used a communist term…! *gasp* I’m now on every ‘No-fly’ list…! ;-)
Or go around the problem just tax the oil companies anything over a 5% profit and call the tax the lets pay for the healthcare of all the troops hurt in A WAR FOR OIL!
here’s hte thing loo hoo;
our oil IS nationalized, we LEASE the right to sell our petro, they do NOT “own it”
we need to set the profit and our petro MUST be sold DOMESTICALLY, it is REDICULOUS we have to bid on our own stuff against other countries, REDICULOUS
dr kirk is upstairs
*sigh* An $11+ billion profit accrued in a mere 3 months, not like they couldn’t afford a 5% tax…!
I’m sorry I meant to say they should keep 5% of their profits.
The rest should help the troops
and yet they have been forgiven the taxes already on the books
Kirks upstairs.
perris, are you still here?
Kirk
Naomi talks about the Extortionist in Chief. Pushing wish list of oil and gas companies. Their monopoly over energy industry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..liars.com/
Fox reporters try to wrap their mind around inscrutable subject of “long term” solutions. But anti-CAPITALISM…. that they recognized easily and clearly.
A very thorough analysis, and one which I am in agreement with. What I find most concerning (assuming that we can continue to put food on the table for our family) is China, and it’s likelihood of directing anger toward us. The are a growing power – with rapidly maturing technologies that do or will soon allow them to project their power around the world. Given this, even if we can contain our own neo-cons, what might happen next, once their people are sufficiently angry at us?
Great post Ian!!! I’ve been trying to find your posts on these issues. Glad I finally made it back over to FDL a few days ago to look. I know it’s depressing, but it appears pretty real and it’s really hard to solve problems that aren’t being recognized. Better to face reality so one has a chance to really deal with it.
Thanks again for your usual illumination of things!
Hey Eric, nice to see you at the Lake.
Twenty years ago or so, as I watched “roadside commercial zoning” pave over square miles of pasture and grove, I proposed that every new development put enough money in escrow to return it to USDA-approved dairy farms when the businesses tanked. When I realized that I was driving a couple of miles between stores to shop for items on my shopping list, I also proposed that cars be eliminated from the commercial strips: park them outside of the commercial area and move people and packages on smallish personal ‘carriages’ pulled around from stop to stop by attaching and detaching from continuously moving cables, available for free. But no … every store insists on having its own parking area larger than its maximal demand, and you can’t walk and window-shop, except inside dying malls, where there’s not much interesting left.
still here, not a stable internet connection though, what’s up?
I have to wonder if the deflation in asset prices is going to be tempered by the devaluation of the dollar – that is that asset prices will drop 10-25% in dollar terms while purchasing power drops 50% or more. In some ways that’s what the Treasury taking on toxic waste CDOs as collateral does – it puts more dollars into the system which devalues the dollar.
I’m an eco-ignormaus, but when the Treasury puts more dollars into the system and thus devalues the dollar, how does that play out domestically?
My admittedly ignorant understanding is that more dollars would be inflationary, thus requiring US consumers to have more dollars to purchase the same goods just as the consumers’ purchasing power was tanking.
I’m probably missing something painfully obvioushere, so I’ll look forward to learning…..
this can be done succesfully, if we invest in infrastructure and if we insist on retirement funding, those dollars realize actual product and if played correctly don’t get dumped on the market wholesale since they are going to retirement funds, food, etc, they can be used to “pay down the debt” and get actual assets at the same time, the dollar influence on the market could be offset into the future
unlike the bailouts where the dollars printed affect the market immediately and do cause inflation
simce money is always being printed anyway, we can instead of printing new paper to heat up the economy we can use devices differant devices to get those dollars out of savings and into the market when they’re needed and back into bank accounts when otherwise there are too many greenbacks in the market.
man, I should have edited for grammar before I post that!
off to bed now, see all later…loo hoo, catch me on another thread, see you then
That’s the effect I see the Treasury’s special lending with CDO collateral having. It’s just putting money into the system and not producing anything. Putting money into the system for infrastructure, using let’s say a new WPA would put those dollars to productive use. Improvements in infrastructure ultimately mean more productivity which tends to bring prices down.
I think monetary policy is deliberately trying to cause inflation, to try to keep the housing bubble from collapsing entirely as that would put a floor under asset prices in nominal terms. The loss of purchasing power isn’t reflected in the nominal market value of the underlying collateral, which puts a tax payer supported floor under the toxic waste debts.
I’m not sure that paying off debt in an inflationary environment is good policy – if you have a mortgage for example with interest rates below inflation then you are in a position where you are paying the debt off with dollars that are devaluing faster than the interest charges.
The fact is we know that trickle down economic does not work and it time that the Ameican people be educated on that fact. While the prediction seem dire I also believe we the American people along with our Federal Goverment are going to be involved like we have never been before,Since we are the goverment we are going to need to elect those individual who are going to support the right kinds of policies and programs to move the country forward. For example, getting completely out of Iraq period.Look at our tax code get rid of all subsidies or tax breaks for big business and others who do not pay taxes. Look at the debt which is 9 trillion and and has to be paid and the money taken from Social Security must be done. All govermental agencies must be examined to eliminate waste and fraud and programs which do not work eliminate them or make them better. We must lower our dependence on OIL period. In other words let become a green country by planting more trees,fuel efficent cars,more renewal fuels,improve our infrasture,roads,transportation,subways,water systems,air lines, security and safety programs, work on climate change it a solveable problem for ourselves and the world. Most of all are we as American prepared to sacfrice now for better benefits later. It seems bleak,but there are opportunites to benefits for all of us if we think about a different direction for country and the world.