As Glenn Greenwald ably demonstrates this morning, ABC News (and Brian Ross specifically) was instrumental in convincing the American public that the Anthrax sent after 9/11 came from Saddam Hussein (based on the false claim that it contained bentonite, which ABC said was "a trademark of Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein’s biological weapons program.")
We now know that the Anthrax was sent by a scientist who worked for the US government, and that alone should be enough to trigger a congressional investigation. But the fact that he was actually involved in the investigation himself should be sending off red flags everwhere, and the bottom line is — ABC has some ’splainin to do.
They claimed at the time that they had four sources from within the government who confirmed the phony bentonite story. They got played. Now they’re refusing to reveal who lied to them. They’re not protecting "sources," they’re protecting people within the US government who used them to float misinformation that led the public to believe war was necessary, and then hide behind "journalistic privilege."
Brian Ross. He’s the new Judy Miller.
Related posts:
- FBI’s Robert Mueller Still Engaging in an Anthrax Cover-Up
- Hamsher on Maddow: Dear Arkansas Dems – Support Public Option or Be Primaried
- Mike Ross’s District Supports a Public Option, Mike Ross Does Not
- Mike Ross’s Lucrative Deal with Large Pharmacy Chain Raises Cash, Eyebrows
- Mike Ross’s District is Evidently Not in Arkansas
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I think the Dixie Chicks I’m Not Ready to Make Nice should be the inauguration theme song
i think it’s been clear for awhile that the mostly likely source of the anthrax was from a gov. lab.
but, as we’ve been discussing on the previous thread, i’m going to need a lot more info before i’m convinced that ivins was involved.
which makes it even more important that brian ross tells us what he knows.
But wait! How could this happen?
“Brian Ross is one of the most honored and respected journalists in the country.”
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=127548
jane, you’re gonna get a kick out of this;
Subpoena!!
It’d be interesting if this was the real culprit; it was obviously a job done from inside the U.S., but clean endings (like the accused’s suicide) may not be the whole story.
Still, the MSM tried so hard to sweep this under the rug (despite being a target themselves) it’ll be fascinating to see where this goes as it re-enters the news cycle.
That’s cold, Jane.
But we’ll know in the next day or so if it’s true. If Ross got played, he’s got about 48 hours to make that clear — and nothing could make it clearer than if he were to name names, or if he forced his sources to reveal their sources and traced the lies backwards.
Off topic: Jane, when will routes start flying to Oxdown?
that is SO MIND BOGGLING it didn’t even register the first time I read it
Bravo!
I so love the Catholic Workers.
This whole thing stinks. This guy could have told us if anyone else was involved. I am sure Naomi Klein would agree that two terrorist acts would lead to more “shocks” than only one by an external threat even as bad as 9/11. Mix this with the fear of Muslims (as Glenn points out) and everyone is willing to give away most freedoms. And the most important witness/perpetrator is now dead. How convenient.
The MSM is doing their best to say that the investigation will now be shutdown and over with.
We need an investigation.
Jane you nailed it.
When will anyone in this administration or the corporate media be held accountable for criminal activity up to and including treason?
The death of Dr. Ivins leaves too many unanswered questions. Perhaps if The Honorable Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi would realize that it wasn’t little brown men sending nasty anthrax from Iraq to her counterpart in the Senate, but government employees sending US Government manufactured anthrax, and that she could have just as easily been a target (albeit, killing a Democratic Senator was much higher on the right’s agenda) she might put impeachment back on the table. That it’s possible that deep within the bowels of the current administration there are people capable of sending anthrax through the mails to make a political point should scare the crap out of her.
Ivin’s death is just too tidy, too clean, and much too convenient.
I have no idea what is still being hidden, but I’m certain it’s a lot.
From EPUland:
Well, this just gets curiouser and curiouser. The Smoking Gun has a copy of a restraining order against Ivins by his therapist claiming that Ivins was “homicidal, sociopathic”:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/a…..hrax1.html
I just can’t help but think what a tortured soul this man must have been and how difficult all this must be for his family. My condolences to them.
Brian Ross had better be very careful in the weeks ahead. Silence is golden and “accidents” have been known to happen.
It ain’t gonna happen with this congress. After this break no one is going to do anything that could be considered “political”
I’m not at all convinced Ivins killed himself.
Cool!
me too. don’t share their religious beliefs, but i admire them above all other religious folk i’ve known.
Remember the British WMD non-proliferation guy who “committed suicide”. As I recall it was right around the time of the Plame outing, coincidentally.
Ross has no time. He has known for years that the bentonite story was a fabrication but has always refused to reveal the “sources” who fed him these lies.
So which Congress critter is going to investigate this? Would it have to be Intelligence committee folks or can Waxman have at it?
It’s down, puravida.
Digg it here:
http://digg.com/politics/ABC_s…..udy_Miller
If, as it appears, this is another right wing terror attack, I am not terribly surprised.
An issue missing from the dialogue these days is how the right wingers go from being trembling lipped, moist eyed patriotism cheerleaders while in power to bomb-throwing anarchists and jack-booted conspiracy theorists when their hands are off the reins.
The fact of the matter is that Tim McVeigh got his great idea of bombing the feds from the likes of Rush Limbaugh. That dumb SOB who shot up the Unitarian church is the same. The right has so effectively vilified the left in this country that stepping over the lines and actually killing them is a difference of degree and not kind. They are sorry losers and WATB’s when they don’t get their way. Expect increased violence if and when rationality begins to prevail.
Greenwald hints at a spectacular conspiracy in this anthrax saga. To put it into English, there is a possibility, if not a likelihood, that the anthrax mailer was working from the administration’s script. The script diverted our outrage and horror from the Saudis who attacked us on 9/11 to Iraqis, more specifically Saddam Hussein. Killing a few liberals is the price they had to pay (willingly, I am sure).
Or, and this seems more likely to me, the government wasn’t sure about who did the sending, but saw in the anthrax mailing an opportunity to blame iraq for it. They capitalized ruthlessly and remorselessly.
Chilling.
bent honnête
I have thought since almost the beginning — that is to say, since about December, 2003, than the attacks were an inside job. Given the timing and the targets, they sent my paranoimeter off the scale. David Kelly’s ’suicide’ the following spring the same, only more so. After what we’ve seen and heard what the monsters running our government can do, I put nothing past them. Re: Bilmon’s post today over at the Orange Satan.
OT: hi to you all from Barbados. Internet connection up and running again.
One thing is for certain, the sources are those who most benefited by linking it to Hussein…you know, the way people like that like to link Borat speedboats to Iran, and fake UN airplanes getting shot at to a way to go to war with…ta da…Hussein.
Who would think of stuff like that…who would “do” something like that…who would leak to reporters stuff like that..
done, thanks for the link.
Thanks Jane.
Patrick Leahy’s office received one of those anthrax letters, and I can’t imagine him sitting back if there’s something odd about this.
As chair of the Judiciary Committee, he’d also have the pull to make things happen if he wants to.
This is grist for any conspiracy theorist. What we have is not one but two blown investigations of a terrorist attack which was used to gin up the case both for the war on terrorism and the Iraq war.
Try this:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/a…..hrax1.html
I would dearly love to know this SOB’s reading materials, political affiliations, etc.
First guess: About the same as that Tennessee SOB that shot up the church.
Ben, honnête? Malhonnête je dirais.
Leahy also sits on the appropriations commitee, including these subcommittees:
Subcommittee on Commerce, Justice, Science
Subcommittee on Defense
Subcommittee on State and Foreign Operations (Chairman)
Subcommittee on Interior
Subcommittee on Transportation and Housing and Urban Development
Subcommittee on Homeland Security
The three listed in bold strike me as groups that would be greatly interested in how a govt scientist at a military research facility could have done what Ivins is alleged to have done.
Hi Knut. From the USA!
bent as in tordu
Brian Ross won’t say anything. If he really does know something, then he risks pissing off the very people whom he knows about. Those people, if you will, have been known to kill capriciously.
I realize that my recent reading material has made me just a bit more paranoid and prone to accept conspiracy theories right now. I just finished James Elroy’s The Cold Six Thousand. Understanding fully that the book is 100% fiction, the scenarios described do not go beyond the possible. It’s all too easy to co-opt a nut-job and pressure him to do something really bad.
Besides, all those unwarranted, illegal wiretaps and reading of everyone’s email certainly could have found something daunting enough to flip a somewhat troubled, brilliant scientist.
Can we just impeach them all now? Please.
Hope you like how I titled the Digg entry. ;-)
hope someone who knows how makes a screen grab of all ABC bentonite stories.
’cause I’d hate to lose gems like this . . .
Does this send up red flags with anyone else, or is it just me? He’s been making “homicidal threats, actions, plans…” since “his graduate days”? Really? And he’s been working in a high-security bioweapons facility for years and years? Something’s really not right here.
And can everyone Digg this one too:
http://digg.com/2008_us_electi…..Hates_Bush
Please pass it around!! Thank you.
or do something really bad and then blame the nutjob
Woo…let’s not let McCain’s involvement in linking anthrax to Iraq go either — note carefully what he says:
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/…..hrax-iraq/
Jean C Duley — the social worker whose petition may be found at the smoking gun — makes a truly strange assertion:
IIRC, Ivins was 62. His grad school days woyld have ended over thirty years ago. I wonder how old Duley is — and how Ivins (or any patient) coould have symptoms so severe they’d need theraspy for three decades, yet despite that severity, wouldn’t have been referred for more intensive treatment with psychiatrsts and or psychologists?
Unless Duley really is old enough to have been able to see Ivins for a few decades and has been practicing in Ivin’s vicinity the whole time, her representation to the Court would appear to contain a significant false assertion.
Brian Ross won’t say anything. If he really does know something, then he risks pissing off the very people whom he knows about. Those people, if you will, have been known to kill capriciously.
Which is why he should do it very, very publicly.
Ta hell with protecting “sources”. Once you’ve been
“kissed”fucked, it’s time to tell.It is well past time to Man Up, Brian Ross.
ding!
One other possible venue for a congressional investigation would be the Senate Armed Services Committee — chaired by Carl Levin (D-MI) with Ranking Member John McCain.
This could be a very interesting setting for a hearing. Many of the GOP members are either retiring (like Warner-VA) or in danger of being forcibly retired (like Wicker-MS, Dole-NC, and Collins-ME, just to name the top three). And I wonder: would McCain show up if Levin called a committee meeting to look into this?
Was Mr. Ivins dressed up as an Iranian naval officer when they found him?
-G
Brian Ross won’t say anything. If he really does know something, then he risks pissing off the very people whom he knows about.
Ross isn’t talking. Like virtually all journalists nowadays he wants to keep his access, even if this means protecting the identities of those lying to him. Tim Russert was the epitome of this kind of “new” journalism when he said during the Plame trial that he just assumed that anything anyone told him was not for attribution.
that’s a mighty big gorilla right there
Hmmm. . . . Just a trip down the B-W Parkway. . . . Do you think he was in the D.C. Madam’s Phonebook?
just now thinking of you –
what happens if your Gov does take the VP slot with McScum ? I ask because your Lt Gov is running against Young in the primary
do they both get to keep their current jobs if they lose ?? who is next in succession for Gov after them ?
There were all those Florida anthrax cases too…the following site has a lot of speculation and facts, etc., very interesting:
http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/Florida.html
and this news is surprising, why? The FBI told the good Dr that he was a “person of interest” That is really smart, tell the person that you suspect that he is about to be charged. I wonder just who the idiot was who thought up that idea. The FBI had to pay 5.8M$ to the last person whom they thought was a “person of interest” and they did the same back when they named the wrong person for the olympic bombing-and leave us not forget the Chinese Dr at Los Almos who the FBI “thought” was a spy for China, that too cost the govt millions. I always called them-when I worked for the fedgov-the Fumbling Bunch of Idiots-to their faces-whenever I had to interact with them, because their list of embarrassments and arresting the wrong person is very very long. It was only because of J Edgar and his sense of public relations-and the networks needing programming-that made the FBI into what the public thinks it is today. Which they are not, by a long shot. In the intel circles in orher countries, if you mention the FBI and CT(Counter Terrorism) or CI(counter intelligence) in the same breath, you will have people rolling around on the floor, laughing. What agency do people in other countries want to investigate CT or CI crimes? Try Scotland Yard. They have a really great rep all over the world. Now, even the FBI lab is treated somewhat as a joke. All of FBI upper mgt-the ones who refused to put forward anything from what the local offices found out prior to 911, should all have been fired-Civil Service rules do not apply to the FBI(big surprise there-J Edgar wanted to be able to fire any who did not toe his line)
c’mon you guys, this guy has been making homicidal threats with impugnity for at least 8 years
And that they were going to go for the death penalty….
The tabloid photo editor who approved the picture of the young, seemingly drunk and cigarette wielding Jenna Bush was the first casualty of anthrax.
Surely a coincidence.
-G
I think this is just badly written. The repetition of the word “action” indicates two separate categories: i.e. that he had a long established pattern of threats and actions toward others, including “threats & actions towards [his current or recent] therapist.”
repeated and anotated without comment for impact
You’re kidding.
No, I guess you’re not.
Lets see …..
Someone wanted to paint a airplane to look like a UN plane and have Saddam shoot it down….
Cheney wanted PT boats built to look like Iranian boats with Navy Seals in Iranian uniforms to create a situation to start a war with Iran…..
Ok…. pulled my tinfoil hat out of the closet……
Just prior to the vote in a DEMOCRATIC Senate. the Judiciary committee was about to move the patriot act to the senate floor that magically Senator Daschle (senate majority leader) & Senator Leahy (chairman of the SJC) who were in charge of moving the patriot act out of committee and onto the floor of the vote BOTH received Anthrax infected letters…….
hmmmm ….just a coincidence right?
I think I need to run to Costco and get myself the supersized Tinfoil dispenser….
Eeek.
Hmmm…now that brings to mind that woman W supposedly raped or was involved with in Houston…who then…after pressing charges…supposedly committed suicide…I always forget her name..Schl….somthing.
Bushco doesn’t mess around. They have no problem killing people…just look at the Iraqis…and the troops..
Chimpy says he sleeps very well at night. 1 million or so dead Iraqis, notwithstanding.
-G
If Palin runs with McCain and wins, and Lt. Gov. Parnell runs for U.S. House and wins, third in line is Atty. Gen. Talis Colberg, a close friend of mine.
Palin will not leave her job as Governor of a state with a projected 11-plus billion dollar surplus, to become the losing running mate of John McCain. Parnell is not looking that great in the three-way GOP primary race for the AK-AL seat. It hasn’t been polled in a few weeks, but Young seems to be hanging in there. In an Alaskan sort of perverse way, Stevens’ indictment may just help the GOP rally around Young on August 26.
Fear as a Control Mechanism
In the last thread it was pointed out that the DOJ manual says that Grand Jury witnesses should be informed if they are a “target” of investigation. This seems a little bizarre to me in a terrorism investigation. I would expect the “target” not to be called but for prosecutors to present evidence to a GJ without calling the “target” and then proceeding from there to an arrest.
http://www.opednews.com/thorea…..uicide.htm
i was just trying to look up when he got his phd – because this seemed odd to me too.
all i’ve found so far is that he had worked at USAMRIID for 35 years (bbc).
something else – i don’t know how things work at ft. detrick but i’d think a senior researcher wouldn’t spend much time (if any) at the bench. that would be for more junior scientists.
too many unanswered questions…
Hi All,
Punaise: You’re thinking of David Kelly, a microbiologist, who before his death said that dark games were being played. (paraphrased)
I made a post earlier at Marcy’s place:
Click through the link for embedded links in the comment:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake……ment-90804
Just a thought but for someone who worked in a high security area with deadly biological you would think that there would be periodic psych evals to determine their stability working in that field & area…..
But then….. we live in the don’t regulate anything unless people die…. Oh they did didn’t they…..
BTW on Randi Rhodes…… the guy who was the person of interest just had his law suit settled for more than $5 million….. and Florida Supreme court just allowed the law suit to go forward brought by the family of the tabloid reporter.
Considering that Tom Brokaw was one of the targets, I would characterize Brian Ross is a “person of interest.”
That’s possible: I certainly hope the hearing judge took the time to tease out the precise meaning, rather than just relying on the poor phrasing.
In LA County Mental Health Court, the judge would have handed me my ass for phrasing like that before the patients’ advocates ever had a chance to.
Randi Rhodes is interviewing the lawyer of the tabloid reporter on her radio show right now…….
Yet another example of why we will never have worthwile journalism in this country until unnamed sourcing is outlawed.
Yes, you heard me OUTLAWED!!!!!
And here’s why.
thanks Prof. kinda knew that, especially about Palin, but that whole thing with feathers perched in the soul overtook me :D . . .
but would his current therapist know about something that happened so long ago? it would make more sense to me if the accusation was just based on recent events.
Audrey, thanks for that name, David Kelly. I was trying to look it up. Very interesting link you have there.
Not just me, then.
Nope.
selise,
added aside
Philip Zack, per ET’s reference – apparently long after he was fired, he and other former employees were allowed back in to the labs after hours and on week ends to work on projects.
apparently they thought of themselves as some groovy academic community and not the planet’s largest repository of deadly pathogens
Link
Kirk might know more but I would think it would depend on how he entered therapy (was he directed into it?), his file (private or through facilities at Ft. Detrick), and the purpose of his therapy (monitoring for his job).
That’s what I was thinking, too. But then you must remember I’m not convinced Paul Wellstone’s plane tumbled out of the sky.
Info on Bob Stevens who worked for American Media Inc on of the Anthrax victims….
Anthrax victim’s widow breaks four-year silence
Jean Duly is supposedly the name of Ivins’s counselor. I can’t find anything about her, other than stuff related to the supposed suicide.
The fact that Brian Ross had four different government sources for the Iraqi connection to the anthrax, and yet, so far, he has not deigned to comment upon it, is indicative of how embedded the media is with the Bush crime organization.
Anyone who buys the AP/official version of this story is thick and deluded.
And why would he keep Ivins as a patient for 30 years with Ivins making “homicidal” threats at him or anyone else…..why, he just liked his company? He was just a dedicated masochist? He thought he could cure him? Manage him?
This just doesn’t make any sense. All along knowing that his “patient” was dealing with biological warfare materials???? I don’t think so… Knowing that anthrax from that particular lab was probably the culprit…7 years ago? I don’t think so….
You’ve covered it nicely. The only two routes are direct and ancillary.
The ancillary (not directly from the patient) data is less persuasive than the direct data.
In LA’s Mental Health Court (?99), the judges really hammered this distinction, and justly so….
This stinks of lax security. Security clearances should have been revoked and access to premises denied. You don’t need to be a security expert for these kinds of things just have more than 4 working neurons.
The silence speaks very loudly.
The same way the anthrax attacks were systematically erased from memory with the saying: No attacks on US soil since 9/11.
It is all very disconcerting.
Brian Ross is a mole.
-G
hugh and kirk – thanks. then i’ll cross that one off my list of questions.
Wasn’t it Brian Ross who broke the Iranian boats/Borat story too?
-G
Ding Ding Ding…..
With that scenario….. WHY was Ivan STILL working with biologicals?
Colonel Mustard in the library with a candlestick.
ABC is getting a bit of pushback in the comments attached to their story about Ivins. A sample:
So far from ABC?
*crickets*
Could the patient have had a file?
Hot Zone
October 14, 2001:
” A secret list of targets uncovered by intelligence experts also includes Disney World in Florida and Sears Tower in Chicago, America’s tallest skyscraper.
The revelation came as American Vice-President Dick Cheney confirmed the FBI is investigating possible links between bin Laden’s al-Qaeda terror network and the spate of anthrax cases.”…..
” And in another disturbing development, the wife of the British- born editor of The Sun newspaper in Florida – the centre of the main outbreak – was revealed to have had business links with the terrorists who attacked the World Trade Center.
Gloria Irish, wife of editor-in-chief Mike Irish, runs Pelican Properties, which supplied the flat where three of the hijackers lived.
Mrs Irish even drove Hamza Algahmdi, who hijacked United Flight 175, and two other hijackers around the Florida resort of Delray Beach looking at flats. Meanwhile, security has been stepped up at Disney World, Disneyland and the Mall of America in Minnesota – another target on the terrorists’ hit-list. A senior aide to President Bush said investigators had found sketches and reports describing the five targets among the possessions of the suicide hijackers who crashed planes into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.
Surveillance satellites have also intercepted secret messages from bin Laden telling his fanatics to launch further attacks in the US. The new threats came as America was gripped by fear of bioterrorist attacks. From coast to coast dozens of anthrax scares – some later dismissed as hoaxes – were reported .”
http://findarticles.com/p/arti….._n14540593
Jean Duley is a BSW, CSC-AD. That is, she has a Bachelors of Social Work and is a Ceritified Supervised Counselor for Drugs and Alcohol within the State of Maryland.
Dr. Ivins psychiatrist was David Irwin, MD who is a respected psychiatrist within the Washington DC region, and recognized by the Washingtonian Magazine as one of “Washington’s Best”. One item of note is that Dr. Irwin performed his residency at Letterman Army Medical Center and Walter Reed Army Medical Center.
If he was known to have homocidal and sociopathic tendencies, what doctor would have prescribed painkillers for him? Where did Dr. Ivins find sufficient painkillers to snuff himself?
If he was known to have homocidal and sociopathic tendencies how did he obtain and keep his Security Clearance???
Something just smells funny, and it’s not the 3 day old clam dip that’s been out in the sun.
Anyone else finding anything on Jean Duley online? I’m not turning up much. Social workers have to take a lot of shit, but dealing with a homicidal maniac who’s about to be charged with 5 counts of murder is a bit much, even for a social worker. I’d totally understand if he/she wanted to keep a low profile, but I’d really like to know that this person really exists.
You’d think he might just swallow some anthrax.
Let’s not forget how Brian Ross was going to reveal all about the DC Madam’s telephone records and then, suddenly, there was nothing there to report.
Yeah, and no DC Madam either.
Try this.
Before we jump to the conclusions implied by today’s reports, I’d remind us that, if you’re a hammer, just about everything looks like a nail. So be careful to consider alternate explanations for all that we are seeing.
Just a few points.
1) The deceased scientist had a lawyer representing him for over a year, and said lawyer assures us that Dr. Ivins was innocent. If the scientist had been paying a lawyer for so long, isn’t it likely he knew very well that the FBI was honing in on him? Certainly such attention, considering what happened to Dr. Hatfeld (spelling?) would cause much anxiety to any intelligent person.
2) The drug allegedly used for suicide was prescription-strength Tylenol with codeine. Tylenol, itself, can cause death from liver toxicity in surprisingly small amounts, particularly for anyone with pre-existing liver problems (such as alcohol use or exposure to many of the solvents used in laboratories). The other ingredient, codeine, is just about the most commonly used opoid analgesic, and is commonly used for pain.
3) The woman who recently filed for the restraining order was working with Suboxone, which she described in a June 29, 2008 article in the Frederick newspaper, as “a ‘miracle drug’ for those addicted to pain medication.”
See http://www.fredericknewspost.c…..ryID=76902
The miracle drug is specifically an opoid antagonist.
4) Is it possible that the scientist had become addicted to pain medication, and that his alleged threats to the woman were connected to whether or not he might be able to use Suboxone to deal with such addiction?
A senior aide to President Bush said investigators had found sketches and reports describing the five targets among the possessions of the suicide hijackers who crashed planes into the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.
cough bullshit!! cough.
although I know that with you, I’m preachin’ to the choir.
Ok….getting the forklift fired up….. going for the pallet of supersized tinfoil dispensers cause I can smell it over here…..
I am re living the monroe murder/suicide
I thought it was a goody…*g*
New CHS
YW. Is this the Age of Conspiracy Theories where all dot-connecting paranoids like us finally discover there’s no shame in wearing tinfoil…In fact, it’s incredibly slimming.
It’s getting harder not to theorize though. Since the advent of the information super highway, supporting evidence just keeps rolling in…along with more conspiracy theories than ever before.
Thanks, JimTheCynic.
Wow: I simply assumed the therapist had at least Master’s level training (MSW). The “Certified Supervised Counselor” makes me wonder if Ms. Duley is still in training. Seems like a very mismatched clinician for a patient who genuinely had sociopathic and homicidal traits of 30 years duration.
Assessing sociopathy requires a prety robust data set. “Sociopathy” and “homicidality” are “red flag” words to toss out when seeking involuntary psych hospitalization and/or restraining orders.
As the words themselves are simply the diagnostic version of epithets, were I to have used them in LA’s Mental Health Court (Court 99? Court 95?), the Judge would have immediately demanded I provide the factual data supporting such loaded and perjorative terms.
On a broader level: for a patient purportedly this symptomatic, I can’t get my mind around the idea that one of “Washington’s Best” shrinks — or even one of Washington’s really sub-par shrinks — could possibly miss the fact that leaving therapy in the hands of a BSW (possibly in training) would appear to be a greivous error.
The most severely ill patients require the most intensive therapy (psychiatrsts or psychology): the severity and chronicity alleged by Jean Duley, BSW, are not consistent with leaving Dr. Irwins’ care with a clinician of Ms. Duley’s limited training.
Hey Teddy, what he said was there was a lot more there, but just too boring to report. Right. Boring for those who might not know who he was talking about, maybe, but for the rest of us, I bet, not boring at all.
I agree in part with your 1). Ivins was lawyered up but it is not clear when or if the DOJ informed him he was a target.
As for tylenol, it actually would be a very, very large dose for most people. Even those with liver dysfunction would need a sizable dose and would still need a few days to die. Codeine in sufficient quantities can depress breathing and cause death.
If Ivins had a problem with opioid addiction, the one thing no physician would prescribe for him would be an opioid.
The conspiracy facts seem to grossly outweigh the official facts in verifiability no matter which way you look at this events. No tinfoil needed.
I agree that relatively amounts of Tylenol can kill, but having seen acetaminophen OD patients for a liver transplant team, I also know the patients often take some days to expire.
here’s a quote from info I shared elsewhere today:
Go read the link for the Frederick paper from June about Ms. Duley at my 106. It looks to me as is Ms. Duley is simply a gatekeeper for Suboxone, and in dealing with subjects who have pain-killer addictions. As indicated in #100, there was another doctor, a respected psychiatrist, who was treating Dr. Ivins and resposible for his admission to the psychiatric facility. That doctor may have communicated with MS. Duley and may been the source of the info in the restraining order about homicidal and other traits.
On CNN…Wolf…
Friends and coworkers…don’t buy the story…he was a generous nice guy, never spoke about politics…was intense about his work..and that they think the FBI had the wrong guy.
ok. it’s back on my list of questions…. at least for now.
one point though… everything i’ve see so far has ivins as a microbiologist – NOT a biochemist. big difference if true.
A lot of leads lead to the cemetery…. with Ivans AND Peter Jennings who was the reporter who linked the anthrax to Iraq….. AND Hatfield just receiving his $5.8 million settlement ……. the only thing the Stevens family (Florida reporter) is suiting the US Gov for lax security & that they are responsible his death because of that lax security….
Doubtful that a scientist would….risk days of pain and deterioration and then death?? Not. Better to sit in your car in the garage. Besides…the powers that be really want this case shutdown and over with. I don’t buy it at all. Insulin can kill you and not leave a trace. We’re dealing with dark characters…isn’t that sort of what David Kelly emailed to Judith Miller the day before he “killed” himself? DC Madam, goes into a tiny shed and “hangs” herself. Now, she’d be more likely to take an overdose of pills. None of this makes any sense, unless you look at who benefits.
Insufficient liver stores of glutathione or S-adenosyl-L-methionine can dramatically increase the toxicity of acetaminophin. Fasting (such as occurs with nausea) can hasten the process. The first accounts I saw indicated the overdose occurred Sunday, with death on Tuesday. We don’t yet know other circumstances about his health. And we don’t yet know if the hospital even administered Mucosil or not.
All I’m saying, is, let’s keep our minds open and consider whether alternate explanations exist for what few facts we know.
And…check this out..regarding the Plame case.
Russert: Dead
Novak: Brain tumor, intensive care
Miller: Still working, but not at NYT
Matt Cooper: Working, but way out of the limelight.
yep. you’re right: Ivins was a PhD microbiologist.
In view of Dr. Ivin’s work with bioweapons, I’m still confident he would have ample awareness of more comfortable tools to select when attempting suicide via OD.
So…he did linger.
Not only can we verify our claims with facts, but the “official” facts are verifiably illogical…like Specter’s magic bullet for JFK. They make no sense. So, you’re right. No tinfoil needed. But it is slimming. ;)
I hope you are correct about Duley’s very limited clinical realtionship. I’ve ben responding to media reports describing her as his therapist, and those may well have been quite incorrect.
Isn’t this what they say about axe murderers? He was a very nice man, very thoughtful when he wasn’t out chopping people up.
We also don’t know if the patient was referred for liver transplant eval (or if Fredrick sought to have the patient transferred to a liver transplant center in the context of hepatic decompensation.
(and…. if not — why not?)
True, true, true. Ted Bundy…nice guy, handsome…
Stacked the woodpiles very neatly, too ;)
How did he know where to send the anthrax to in Florida? I understand the Leahy and Dashle addresses…easy…but not the Florida connections….not that soon after 9/11. See my #55.
In the ABC report, at
http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheL…..038;page=1
“Client has a history dating to his graduate days of homicidal threats, actions, plans threats & actions toward therapist [sic]. Dr. David Irwin his psychiatrist called him homicidal, sociopathic, with clear intentions,” a handwritten page submitted with the application stated.”
it sure sounds as if Dr. Irwin is the one who originated the report of Dr. Ivins as being homicidal. It looks to me as if Ms. Duley used that report to support her request for the restraining order, considering she’d had what apparently was a threatening message on her answering machine.
By the way, in several places on the ‘Net, Dr. David Irwin is listed as a “forensic psychiatrist.” Hmmm.
As in “expert witness”?????
Did they hire Irwin to read Duley’s stuff and issue a report that they are using to create a profile of him?
Wow — that is interesting. Good catch. As a rule, they ain’t the long-term therapy kind of shrinks.
Wonder if law enforcement contributed to any ancillary sources used by either Dr. Irwin or Ms. Duley in formulating their assessments of Dr. Ivins?
(and I wonder how long before I transpose Irwin and Irvins’ surnames)
That’s what I’m saying too. Did he even ever meet Ivins…sounds like what I said, expert witness, issued based on other stuff from ???? and in support of Duley at the same time…
Ivins *g*…you already did…
Brian Ross will prove himself a “standup guy” by his silence to protect his “sources.” Wouldn’t be surprised to see him receive the Presidential Medal of Freedom given the state of things in the U.S.. More celebrityhood, riches and cocktail weenies. Why would he want to threaten his membership in the Village Elders by letting the American public know who planted false stories to further the Administrations demonizing of Iraq?
Yes, he lingered a bit.
The account in the Frederick newspaper says Dr. Ivins was found unresponsive on the floor, around 1 Sunday morning. He died Tuesday (I think in the afternoon). (If he was already unresponsive, then ingestion probably had been on Saturday or earlier.)
http://www.fredericknewspost.c…..ryID=78270
“At the time when officers were called to the home, there was nothing to indicate it was a suicide, he said.”
On David Kelly’s ’suicide.’ This is really Emptywheel’s domain, but I recall reading a report from the Guardian or another respectable British paper that the British police never got Kelly’s fingerprints off the inife he barehandedly killed himself with (he slit his wrists).
The BBC just reported:
That’s interesting: expired Tuesday night, and the medical examiner has the report out by 5 PM Friday.
IIRC, medical examiners looking at cause of death in those who die from Taser and/or chokeholds administered by law enforcement often report delays of weeks awaiting toxicology reports.
Maybe everything just moves more slowly here on the Left Coast: our medical examiners are just chillin’.
I wonder where the speed with which the cited medical examiner reportedly gathered and considered suuficient data to reach that definitive conclusion falls on the range of time required by medical examiners reviewing cases of alleged death by intentional OD?
shite
LS, thanks for the tip! I’m name-challenged….
Yeah, like who killed, strike that,
how did Dr. Ivens die..Do you recall
the British guy who slashed his wrists
and committed suicide? Just as he was
about to be questioned???
How are these guys who perform these
suicides?
So…Hatfill gets off with a big pay-off very, very recently…7 years after the anthrax attacks…Leahy brings up the anthrax case in the hearing very recently with Mukasey….then, suddenly the guy they are “going” to charge…who they “tell” they are going to charge and ask the death penalty for….is not arrested….noooooo. He’s not arrested and then told. He is told what is going to happen to him and he…he…eats a bunch of tylenol-3 and is dead as a doornail, before any actual charges are made or an arrest is made, and before anyone can interrogate him to find out if he did it or not…and the MSM is claiming the case will be closed…this ends it…
WTF??? Do they think we are stooooopid????
intersting media note:
at the top of the 3PM PST hour, KALW began the BBC’s “newshour”. [1 hr delay]
The announcement re Ivins included word (IIRC) “who possibly killed himself” — and then led a report of the medical examiner’s announcement.
Bruce Ivins was our top government scientist on anthrax, having passed original and subsequent super-secret clearance investigations, and worked at a site that should be more secure than the White House. (The latter, after all, requires at least a one-way valve for the escape of hot air, which ought to be a No-No at a government bio-weapons lab).
Yet, the FBI claims that Ivins orchestrated one of the worst terror attacks the US has witnessed, with weapons from his own lab, and successfully linked it at just the right time to Saddam Hussein and 9/11.
Which would be worse: that the FBI is right, and they can’t prove it seven years later, or that they’re wrong and they’ve still got nothing seven years later?
Is the government itself involved? Did it only order a go slow? Are we not supposed to know that the anthrax murders were an own goal by our own bio-weapons experts using weapons from our own super-secure facilities? That would convince Americans George Bush and the Goopers know how to keep us safe. Who leaked selectively to Village reporters, telling them to take Cipro? And by extension, who failed to tell the rest of official Washington and us?
The black hole that is the CheneyBush administration just got deeper. One would think a responsible Congress might want to empower a Select Committee to get to the bottom of this, if there is one. Its leadership was among the anthrax murderers’ prime targets.
If Duley’s assertion were true, how did Mr. Ivins obtain and/or keep a high-level security clearance? One would think his claimed history and the nature of his employment at a government bio-weapons lab would be dramatically in conflict. Perhaps those in charge were clueless about why Ivins might have preferred Las Vegas to the Boulder Free Zone and refused to take The Stand on it either way.
As you and others suggest, if Ms. Duley and Mr. Ivins had a mental health provider-patient relationship (ie, were she not involved merely as an administrator forwarding records), her credentials seem laughably inadequate, given the unique stresses of Ivins’ work.
I learned 3 things today about Ivins’ “suicide” while riding in the car listening to news radio:
(it was a CNN news break on WGAN AM560 here in Maine)
1) Ivins’ attorney stated that there were no immediate charges coming to his client
2) The neighbor to Ivins said via audio that the FBI was at his house a lot and had been for at least a year consistently
3) Someone (not sure if it was police, the reporter, or an associate of Ivins’) stated that the FBI mostly likely witnessed Ivins’ death.
Very, very interesting.
The FBI killed him because Ivins was going to blow the doors off by going public with what he knew (he didn’t kill himself because of the “imminent” charges) and this information would have been very damaging to the Bush White House, because as we all know, it was them that sent the anthrax out after 9/11. They had to kill him because he knew too much and wanted to go public to protect himself from what they did. He didn’t want to be the patsy.
Thom Yorke of Radiohead did a song called Harrowdown Hill which is where David Kelly’s body was found:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..re=related
Here’s the lyrics:
Don’t walk the plank like I did
You will be dispensed with
When you’ve become inconvenient
Up on Harrowdown Hill
Where you used to go to school
Thats where I am
Thats where I’m lying down
Did I fall or was I pushed?
Did I fall or was I pushed?
And wheres the blood?
And wheres the blood?
I’m coming home
I’m coming home
To make it all right
So dry your eyes
We think the same things at the same time
We just cant do anything about it
So don’t ask me
Ask the ministry
Don’t ask me
Ask the ministry
We think the same things at the same time
There are so many of us
So you can’t count
We think the same things at the same time
There are too many of us
So you can’t count
Can you see me when I’m running?
Can you see me when I’m running?
Away from them
I can’t take their pressure
No one cares if you live or die
They just want me gone
They want me gone
I’m coming home
I’m coming home
To make it all right
So dry your eyes
We think the same things at the same time
We just cant do anything about it
We think the same things at the same time
There are too many of us
So you can’t count
I was lured into the back of Harrowdown Hill
It was me lured into the back of Harrowdown Hill
I was lured into the back of Harrowdown Hill
It was a slippery slippery slippery slope
It was a slippery slippery slippery slope
I feel me slipping in and out of consciousness
I feel me slipping in and out of consciousness
I feel me…
In the article I read, Dr. Ivins went to great lengths to uncover contamination of anthrax in common areas, outside the lab where one would HOPE TO GOD that very clean lab etiquette prevailed. He reported the contamination, which he had investigated without permission. Now why on earth would a potential mass murderer via weaponized anthrax draw attention to himself this way?
His friends and family say no way. What, they didn’t know he was a crazed psycho killer as we learned vis a vis his rather poorly trained counselor???
So, earlier today I just thought it was curious. Now, I have folded up a nice shiny tinfoil hat.
This is like a plot to a bad spy movie. Powerful men in the deep shadows of government attempt to murder/intimidate the opposition. They fail at their first framing attempt. Too-smart sci guy gets suspicious, advises his superiors that something is rotten in Denmark, becomes target. Up and dies suddenly, and the investigation is “solved.”
This plot is not exactly a new ploy–the murders of the Gracci brothers were pawned off on low-level, low-power stooges in Rome while the real plotters went free.
Don’t be so quick to buy the official story Jane. These people really are bad, that evil. A closed investigation is not justice to the people that died and those that still suffer from their exposure to weapons-grade anthrax. Unless they can show beyond a reasonable doubt that Dr. Ivins did this thing, it seems to simple an ending to the story–especially since murder appears as one of the options on the official White House table these days.
Wow. That is some nice work by Greenwald. Wow.
I am generally inclined to agree with you, although Greenwald’s post gives me pause. These guys were willing to do a lot to get a war with Iraq.
One aspect of Ivins background was that, even though he’d been cited for taking anthrax into unauthorized areas, he also was feted with the DOD’s highest civilian award.
And he’s from southern Ohio. Below is some info:
http://www.daytondailynews.com…..ivins.html
Suspected anthrax mailer brilliant but troubled man
Scientist killed himself as FBI closed in
By David Dishneau
FREDERICK, Md. — Lebanon native Bruce E. Ivins was a juggler, a gardener, a church musician, a Red Cross volunteer — and a suspected multiple murderer, according to federal authorities.
Anthrax-laced letters that killed five people and rattled the post-9/11 nation may have been part of the Army scientist’s warped plan to test his cure for the deadly toxin, officials said Friday, Aug. 1.
Some people who knew the scientist scoffed at the government’s assertion that Ivins sent the anthrax letters. But court documents indicate the outwardly mild-mannered Ivins had a menacing side.
Documents show that Ivins recently received psychiatric treatment, and that he was ordered last week to stay away from Jean C. Duley, a social worker who counseled him. In her application for a protective order, Duley wrote that Ivins had stalked and threatened to kill her and had a long history of homicidal threats.
Ivins, 62, committed suicide Tuesday as prosecutors zeroed in on him as a suspect in the 2001 attacks. They planned to indict him and seek the death penalty.
His father, T. Randall Ivins, ran a pharmacy in Lebanon, where the researcher and his two older brothers grew up. After graduation, Ivins received three degrees, including a Ph.D. in microbiology, from the University of Cincinnati.
Tom R. Ivins, 73, who stressed that he had not spoken to his brother since 1985, was not shocked to hear that Bruce was accused of making death threats. He also conceded the possibility that Bruce may have been the anthrax mailer.
“It makes sense, what the social worker said,” said Tom Ivins, who lives in Middletown. “He considered himself like a god.”
Some who knew Ivins said the investigation was too much for him to bear. But they also asserted his innocence.
“The relentless pressure of accusation and innuendo takes its toll in different ways,” his attorney, Paul F. Kemp, said in a statement. “In Dr. Ivins’ case, it led to his untimely death.”
Ivins had worked for the past 18 years at the government’s biodefense labs at Fort Detrick. He and wife Diane, a stay-at-home mom who ran a day care center out of the family’s home, lived nearby in Frederick. They have two adult children: a son, Andy, and a daughter, Amanda.
He worked to develop a vaccine that was effective even when different strains of anthrax were mixed. In 2003, he shared the Decoration for Exceptional Civilian Service — the highest honor for Defense Department civilian employees.
“I think he was just psychologically exhausted by the whole process,” said Dr. W. Russell Byrne, a colleague of Ivins. He said Ivins was “hounded” by FBI agents who raided his home twice.
“There are people who you just know are ticking bombs,” Byrne said. “He was not one of them.”