After Sunday’s massacre, will we see Senator Obama renounce his decision to appear with and submit to questions from an eliminationist right-wing hate preacher?
I’m not talking right-wing preachers who keep their eliminationist beliefs in the closet. Nope — I’m talking mega-published globe-trotting eliminationist right-wing preachers: the sort who tell the Pew Forum:
By the way, my wife and I had dinner at a gay couple’s home two weeks ago. So I’m not homophobic guy, okay?
– and then later flies off to Kampala to preach the opposite … stoking intolerance and prejudice among "Christians" who often kill their fellow believers for being gay.
Richard Bartholomew picked up the story in Uganda Media: Rick Warren Denounces Gay Rights:
The Kampala Monitor reports:
Warren was speaking in support of Ugandan Anglicans who intend to boycott the forthcoming Lambeth Conference, and this harsh rejection of tolerance for gays and lesbians may have serious consequences in a country where homosexuals face harrassment and and the threat of imprisonment.
Warren’s comment is of a piece with his support for Martin Ssempa, the Ugandan evangelist who has been a keynote speaker at a Warren conference, and who has received US global AIDS prevention funds. As I wrote in August, Ssempa wants to ensure that homosexuality remains illegal and that gays and lesbians are identified in the public mind as sexual abusers. Ssempa calls for media censorship against opposing views and the dismissal of dissenting academics, and last summer he organised a rally with the theme "A Call for Action on Behalf of the Victims of Homosexuality", at which he railed against "molestation and sodomy." Another past Warren conference delegate is Janet Museveni, wife of Uganda’s increasingly autocratic president. I discussed the dubious consequences of Mrs Museveni’s evangelical approach to HIV and AIDS on Talk to Action here; Esther Kaplan has explored the issue in further depth.
Of course, Warren continued to obscure the reality in this fluffjob for Time:
Akinola personifies the epochal change in the Christian church, namely that the leadership, influence, growth and center of gravity in Christianity is shifting from the northern hemisphere to the southern. New African, Asian and Latin American church leaders like Akinola, 61, are bright, biblical, courageous and willing to point out the inconsistencies, weaknesses and theological drift in Western churches.
With nearly 18 million active Anglicans in Nigeria, Akinola’s flock dwarfs the mother Church of England’s membership. And since he is chairman of the 37 million—member Council of Anglican Provinces in Africa, when he speaks, far more than just Anglicans pay attention. Akinola has the strength of a lion, useful in confronting Third World fundamentalism and First World relativism.
He has been criticized for recent remarks of frustration that some felt exacerbated Muslim-Christian clashes in his country. But Christians are routinely attacked in parts of Nigeria, and his anger was no more characteristic than Nelson Mandela’s apartheid-era statement that “sooner or later this violence is going to spread to whites.” I believe he, like Mandela, is a man of peace and his leadership is a model for Christians around the world.
So who’s this Akinola, “lion” of Rev. Warren’s pantheon? Like Warren, he preaches the gospel of intolerance for gays:
[Akinola] has been a mouthpiece for the most homophobic tendencies within the church, telling the New York Times that he jumped back in horror the first time he met a gay couple, comparing homosexuality to everything from pedophilia to zoophilia, and pushing for Nigeria to enact a five-year mandatory sentence for homosexual acts or "associations", a bill so broad that it could lead to the imprisonment of AIDS caregivers.
Why stop with locking up gays?
Real eliminationists preside over militia that massacre their percieved enemies — especially the civilian ones. Why bother with Jesus’ teaching when your militia can smite babies?
In May, The Atlantic magazine raised new and more troubling concerns about Akinola. In “God’s Country,” the writer Eliza Griswold, daughter of the Rt. Rev. Frank Griswold, former Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, describes a retributive massacre in the Nigerian town of Yelwa carried out in 2004 by a well-organized band of men, wearing clothing and tags that identified them as members of the Christian Association of Nigeria. Akinola was president of CAN during the massacre, which Human Rights Watch reports claimed the lives of approximately 700 Muslims. Dozens of others were kidnapped, raped or maimed…
When asked if those wearing name tags that read “Christian Association of Nigeria” had been sent to the Muslim part of Yelwa, the archbishop grinned. “No comment,” he said. “No Christian would pray for violence, but it would be utterly naive to sweep this issue of Islam under the carpet.” He went on, “I’m not out to combat anybody. I’m only doing what the Holy Spirit tells me to do. I’m living my faith, practicing and preaching that Jesus Christ is the one and only way to God, and they respect me for it. They know where we stand. I’ve said before: let no Muslim think they have the monopoly on violence.”
That’s only abroad, right? Surely Rev Warren and his church don’t work with eliminationists here, right?
Uh….wrong.
So…what’s the link between Left Behind Games, Rick Warren, and eliminationism?
Mark Carver, a top aide to mega-church pastor and best selling author Rick Warren, has resigned as a business advisor to Left Behind Games, the developers of a video game in which Christian militias wage physical and spiritual warfare using the power of prayer and modern military weaponry to convert New Yorkers and kill those who resist. Mr. Carver’s abrupt resignation, announced in a statement e-mailed to Talk to Action by Mr. Warren’s Purpose Driven Ministries on June 6, 2006, came in response to a two-part series on Talk to Action that criticized the game’s antisocial nature (warriors shout "Praise the Lord!" as they blow infidels away, and players can switch to the side of the AntiChrist to kill Christians). The series also revealed the game developer’s links to Mr. Warren’s empire and their emulation of his network marketing techniques. For example, Mr. Carver, Executive Director of Purpose Driven Church, served on the Advisory Board of Left Behind Games, a corporation formed in October 2001 (weeks after the attack on the World Trade Center) to develop the violent video game and distribute 1 million sample discs through pastoral networks and mega-churches. And until June 6, the Left Behind Games web site featured Mr. Carver’s name and detailed his prominent role in Purpose Driven Church. [Update: here is a screen shot from the Left Behind Games site taken before June 5, showing Mr. Carver's name and invoking the name brand of Purpose Driven Church.]
Although Talk to Action did not claim that Mr. Warren himself had developed, distributed, or endorsed the game, it held him accountable for the use of the Purpose Driven name brand in the game’s web-based marketing material, and asked whether his mega-church and global pastoral network planned to distribute the game. In response, Mr. Carver has requested that his name as well as the Purpose Driven name brand be removed from the Left Behind Games web site (which actions followed promptly), and Purpose Driven Ministries has promised not to distribute or promote the game. In its statement, Mr. Warren’s organization criticized Talk to Action’s approach, but did not rebut any of the facts or claims presented.
Do we think that Mr. Warren would allow his name brand and reputation to be casually invoked in a major business venture that involves one of the largest publishers in the Christian marketplace, who published the Left Behind novels, one of the best selling fiction series of all time? Does anyone think that Left Behind Games invoked the name brand of Mr. Warren’s Purpose Driven Church without his permission? Since this possibility is farfetched, what we are looking at here is a business/marketing alliance between several evangelical business and ministerial entrepreneurs for whom the Great Commission also means great profits.
After Sunday’s massacre I’d love to see all US politicians — and most of all the two major party Prez candidates — renounce hate preachers, eliminationists, and those who support them.
If McCain won’t, I hope Obama will: starting with Mark Carver’s long-time employer and Akinola’s fanboy: Rev. Warren.




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hey kirk
hey Tex!
these people worship a very small God.
while we’re alone, TB…
have I ever told you how much I lust for…
your desserts?
I’ve heard nothing but *crickets* from both campaigns regarding Sunday’s shooting. Anyone hear any statements?
jayt…welcome….
I was just telling TexBetsy about my devotionals!
great question, RevBev.
hey kirk – i saw that (wink wink)
while we’re alone, TB…
Ha! Caught ya!
Calls for dessert for everybody, I think.
The energy that goes into hating amongst so-called Christians is pretty amazing. It is hard to believe they have time for love. They seem to think Jesus was joking when he said to love your fellow man.
why…yes.
on me, of course (tries to look innocent)
while we’re waiting: has anyone heard the answer to RevBev’s excellent question?
Oh — and: (((RevBev and UU community)))
Hey, get a bakery, you two.
They have no interest in Jesus. It’s the sword, the locusts, the wrath.
Jesus who?
Following on masaccio’s great post…
Is “stepping away from the hate preacher host” something Obama will do for us?
you talking to Bev? Is she here?
I don’t think Bev is a UU. But we haven’t talked about that.
Hey ((RevDeb)). How are you?
LOL!
Is this fellow the only host at this event?
Somehow I think when RevDeb (not anytime soon of course!) gets to Heaven she won’t have to worry about running into Rick Warren.
no: just reflecting my ongoing name-mangling. my apologies. i’m gonna go sit in the bakery for a bit….
dugg
dunno: but when I organize e vents, I always make sure we use nametags…
(goes back to bakery)
Here’s the Knoxville support link RevDeb shared earlier if you’d like to send a note to the congregation.
Haven’t seen you around for a long time.
I’m OK. Supposed to be on study time—on call just for emergencies—but the Knoxville shooting has kind of taken precedence. Planning a vigil for Thurs. night. So so sad for the people in Knoxville. I know what lies ahead for them and it will be a very long and difficult road.
Mommybrain, I was off unsuccessfully trying to be the first to digg, but wandered off and saw that you and I digg a lot of the same posts. (Dugg now)
The question is why did Obama cozy up to a homophobic preacher in the first place.
Heaven? What’s that? I’m kind of in the school of heaven and hell are here now—we make it so. It’s our job on this earth. What ever comes after is unknown, if there is indeed anything at all.
Warren is on his own to reap what he sows.
Thanks for the diggs!
(goes back to bakery)
Ayup.
Hi Loo Hoo, saw in the news you might have gotten the shakes today?
not his first venture into homophobia. Remember his Donnie McClurkin support? Yeah, that’s the way to earn our votes. /s
You make me want to go to your church.
Props, RevDeb. I like your style.
Captain Kirk!
Excellent post. On a related topic, I just received a fundraising e-mail from Howard Dean entitled “you and Barack at the convention”. Here is my reply:
Maybe in 2012 we will nominate a real Democrat.
Serious question – is speaking to any group cozying up to them?
I just can’t keep up here — three posts later and I’m always the last to the party. Wow! What an evening. Great posts, firedogs.
The self-delusion here is staggering and scary.
Wonder is this person is deliberately promoting violence, or if he’s just ignorant.
Yes.
This has been another edition of Simple Answers to Simple Questions”.
Paul Hill was doing what the Holy Spirit told him to—so he killed a doctor and a clinic escort.
Be wary of anyone who tells you he/she is acting out what God has told them to do unless it is benevolent. But usually those who act out of the kindness of what God says don’t get any attention. They don’t want any.
Spot on ol bean…well said and served with cheek.
Twain thanks for your serious question. Here Obama chose Warren:
— for his first campaign appearance with McSame
— to publicly question Obama for 45 mins.
Obama’s decision goes beyond appearing beofre a group: his choices put the eliminationist hate preacher Warren at the center of Obama’s public appearance.
My broader question (not for you, Twain, but for Obama and our citizens)
If appearing before and taking questions from an eliminationist hate-preacher is OK….
– why not a neo-Nazi?
– why not a KKK Grand Dragon?
– why not the North American Man Boy Love Association?
On a yet broader level — what’s a serious aspirant for Most Powerful Man In The World and presumptive leader of the Dem Party doing making public appearances and taking questions from someone who pushes hate (and supports violent haters)?
When looking at the murders of gays in his own land, one can only conclude SSempa’s deliberately promoting violence. The links in Talk To Action are quite instructive.
If McCain won’t, I hope Obama will: starting with Mark Carver’s long-time employer and Akinola’s fanboy: Rev. Warren
Not going to happen Neither of them has the balls to upset the Evangelical apple cart. They probably don’t see the connection between what happened this weekend and the hate that is preached behind thousands of pulpits on sunday morning all over the country.
Loo Hoo, great minds. I especially Digg Ian’s posts, but don’t like to be first with them. I don’t have the proper vocabulary for talking about things economic. We going to plan a fall/winter gathering? Love to see you again.
RevDeb, we’ve been on vacation and having house guests and working and whatnot. I’ve only been dashing in and out of the lake.
Namaste to you and your community. Aspens are joined at the root, someone once said; I know you must be somewhat shaken. Take care.
I’m taking a wait and see. Maybe, just maybe, Obama will make this guy look like the fool he is for all to see.
OK, maybe not all… but most?
Yeah, yeah. I know. Ever the foucking optimist.
I think Obama is trying to prove something that this country has forced on him – that he is not a scary black man. I detest this group he’s addressing and the others you mentioned. I sometimes think that we have become the intolerant ones.
No.
This has been another of Atrios “Simple Answers to Simple Questions”™
Remember the Wyyoming gay man strung to a barb wire fence for drinking with rednecks in his home town or Dragging a Blck man to his deathin Jasper Texas. hate crimes are fueled by hate talk. Very bad move Obama. Oop we don’t criticize our feckless leaders. Shut u and go to your room.
Compare and contrast these two Christian teachings:
– Jesus
– Akinola
matthew shepard?
If I were trying to convince people I weren’t scary, I’d refuse to schedule major campaign events with — much less submit to 45 minutes of public questioning from — a scary eliminationist hate preacher.
We DO criticize them, of course, but it has reached a point where if Obama is mentioned in a thread all this rage and hate comes boiling out. It’s bad for our country and lends nothing here.
I think this post is very worthwhile for all progressives to consider. There are several things happening on this front, and I personally don’t believe Obama is going to change this appearance at Warren’s place, and in fact will use it to more and more advantage to co-opt so-called people of faith.
There’s a book going to be available August 5th by Stephen Mansfield “The Faith of Barack Obama”.
Same guy that wrote the book about George Bush’s faith which was on the NYT best seller for 15 weeks. And advance reviews say he loves Obama. IMO, I think it’s a dog whistle to the so called values-voters as well as this Warren camp appearance.
Right to choose is hanging by a thread and gay right to marry is nascent and fragile, and I think that worse than Bill Clinton’s DADT will be the tossing of these progressive ideals for the sake of winning the WH.
Just my $.02
it isn’t rage or hate. It is profound disappointment.
And he hasn’t yet been nominated let alone elected.
Can’t keep the eyes open any longer.
Night all.
I was in the vet’s office and didn’t feel a thing. (Found out Kobe is licking his arm raw because he has an obsessive compulsive disorder.) Antibiotics and an antidepressant.
If anyone would have told me 15 years ago I’d allow a dog of mine to be put on antidepressants, I’d have told them they were crazy. But…I didn’t see individually packaged water coming either.
You have a point there, Twain. Isn’t being intolerant of gay haters just as bad as being intolerant of gays?
Nite Rev.
g’nite revdeb
DR. Kirk, you are brilliant.
The most exceleent way of framing an issue I can remember.
G’nite, RevDeb
Sleep wll.
(goes back to kitchen)
It’s my understanding that the forum is a joint project of this church and a pro-gay organization.
Linkie
And that Warren is taking flak from the right about this.
So I’m with the fucking optimists on this one – will wait and see what happens. (Hi WDD!)
Sorry fer the spelling. I have some lighting issues.
out of the bakery?
Maybe we can meet up the weekend after the election to either celebrate or commiserate.
The trick is figuring out how to tolerate the hater and not tolerate the hate. I tried really hard to love GWB when he was first elected. I tried really hard to have compassion. I have not been able to maintain it through all these years. I hate the forker.
ummm…in the moral universe in which being intolerant of murderers is as bad as being intolerant of their victims, i suppose the answer would be “yes”.
Fortunately, however, we seem not to live in that universe.
(How can I tell? Ours has capital letters.)
Oh, shit, I miss (show text)
I have no hatred for Obama…he reflects to me modern evangelical principles which are niether centrist of liberal or proggressive. Whar Warren intends is to draw lines in the sands and put him in a theological box that defines Obama in Warren’s narrow definition of christianity.
The brokem promose on FISA is a harbinger of things to come. Never the twain should meet. Maybe you could do a post on his good points?
busted, no one here need apologize for spelling/typing to me — even when my keyboard’s not covered with frosting
(goes back to bakery)
Bring us some cookies, Kirk.
Sneak them out.
you sure about that one?
I was being sarcastic about the equivalence of the two kinds of intolerance. I keep forgetting the old maxim that when typing people can’t read the nuances like voice inflection, etc. I should have ended with a “/s”.
My bad. :-)
Jeebus Kirk. Where are you? Haven’t read the entire thread.
nope
I could hear you speaking in a church there, mary, until the last sentence!
oops — i was sharing the tangent: forgot my own /s.
my big sticky bad.
I keep waiting for Tex Betsy to do the honors. Is that sexist?
(ducks)
It is like we are all responding to ourselves cause that is the only person in the room.
I think that most people who belong to groups such as this rightwing minister leads are fearful and ignorant. They have no exposure to the life that most of us here have and have been taught from birth that anything outside their little circle is bad and dangerous. I pity their ignorance and fear and hate the misery they bring to others but I cannot hate them.
Save the forkers, Jeebus!
Yeah, I have this fantasy that he will someday be kidnapped and turned over to the World Court to be tried for war crimes. But then President Obama would no doubt exert political and economic pressure to ensure his release.
Fact: Criticism of Obama here and other “Progressive” place ranges from annoyance to sheer disgust and fury. A good deal of it appears warranted.
Fact: We knew all along that he would tack to the “middle” to pursue Hillary voters after the primaries. How far and how fast, we couldn’t have predicted.
Fact: If “we” are to drive Obama to observe or adopt “Progressive” stances, we have to be certain they are in him already – else they will be lies, and it will only amount to shrieking.
Fact: For all the angst and pain this brings us, Senator McCheese is not an alternative.
Like we haven’t had to settle for “not as bad as…” in the past. It isn’t a solution, but it is real. Few here are going to be happy with Obama, but no one will ever forgive themselves if he isn’t elected President.
And not one person has commented on Fern’s comment at 61
I have to vote for BO. And that, is that. Respect everyone here, and am so glad to find FDL and be a part here. Hey, where are the cookies?
This is all true. Sad but…
Fact: Settling for the lesser of two evils still sucks, and it’s ok that it’s sucky. The point is that leaders should respond to criticism on a factual basis, not just employing spin.
We already got that on the FISA response by Obama. I was not happy with the falsheoods he used to support his position on FISA, i.e. “compromise” and “it’s a better bill” etc.
What I personally want him to do at Warren’s venue is talk BACK to the fundy point of view and say basically “No. We Shall Include.” And frankly I don’t expect that. It will be a welcome surprise if he does.
Rot Row double Diggs!!
One from Thomasmifflin and one from Suz Digg!
Ok Lurk you get to either merge them or fix them.. the Digg is in your hands!!
Why? Who do you think he will nominate to the Supreme Court? (IIRC, he supported Stripsearch Sammy.)
uhhh…newtonusr, I’ve spent much of the post in the bakery atoning for my anomia…but I haven’t seen anything here equating to an instruction to vote for McSame.
Any assertion that deploring Obama’s free choice to appear with and take 45 minutes of questions from a prominent eliminationist homophobic antichoice hate preacher stikes me as an abysmally fallacious syllogism.
If I’ve missed somehting, I hope someone will let me know: anything to get me away from (re) sampling the maple sugar frosting.
Fact: there is no good alternative.
what people choose to do about that will vary with the individual.
I was incredibly touched at Obama’s speech in Berlin. I just kept thinking, “Imagine, a brilliant President instead of a dolt.”
We could certainly do far worse than Barack Obama. I think the most important thing right now is for him to be elected. He can’t do diddley unless he is, and it may take some moving to the middle to get elected. We know the America as we used to know it is gone forever if McCane is elected.
PS. I’m pissed off that I have to take my shoes off in an airport. (Not as pissed off as disabled folks are, I’m sure.) It’ just wrong. You don’t punish hundreds of millions of people for something one clown tried to do.
Kirk is on a sugar high.
thomas’ is the one at the top of the post… thanks for pointing it out nahant
Cookies?
i recommend the dark chocolate. *g*
And I did not intend to imply such.
I want to verbally pound his ass, too. I want to yell at him and his people and disrupt his appearances when he soft-pedals his oath.
And I will not sit out the election, and I will not vote for McCheese. That’s all I’m saying.
fork:
Any assertion that deploring Obama’s free choice to appear with and take 45 minutes of questions from a prominent eliminationist homophobic antichoice hate preacher equates with exhortation to vote for McSame strikes me as an abysmally fallacious syllogism.
[crap: now my brain’s sticky. I blame these progressives’ criticism of the Dem candidate.]
It takes the clown forkin’ forevah to get his shoes off and back on. And he has a really hard time getting his car keys out of his pocket with those gloves on. Better just to put the entire clown through the scanner. But watch out for the flower that squirts the water. Could electrocute someone. That won’t be funny.
me neither. i’m voting for Cookie Monster ;)
[ducks - sticks to counter]
Ginger cookies.
I thought that snacks were involved…I will look.
Maybe you didn’t read Fern @61 – this meeting is being held WITH a pro-gay group also.
This was my reply to Loo Hoo. Didn’t hit the reply but.
“PS. I’m pissed off that I have to take my shoes off in an airport. (Not as pissed off as disabled folks are, I’m sure.) It’ just wrong. You don’t punish hundreds of millions of people for something one clown tried to do.”
It takes the clown forkin’ forevah to get his shoes off and back on. And he has a really hard time getting his car keys out of his pocket with those gloves on. Better just to put the entire clown through the scanner. But watch out for the flower that squirts the water. Could electrocute someone. That won’t be funny.
Crisco is the solution for that… :-)
Sorry, makes the beer taste funny.
Oh Loo Hoo, these are perfect.
Good night good post. It was a dirty task but needed to be done. There was a reason to separate church and state in the Constituion. No tolernace for intolerance. The Sandlady calls as the veil of sleep sends me into an altered state of conscience….dreamland where hoefully all is well.
g’nite bb
nite bb
TSF linked to this in Kirk’s previous post on this topic.
Also Phoenix Woman linked to some things that suggest Warren’s views are somewhat less extreme than Kirk has indicated.
I think a little more nuance is called for in interpreting Obama’s appearance.
I also would like Kirk to explain what he means by eliminationist – and to provide some direct evidence that Warren holds these views – not just guilt by association.
here here… I will vote for Obama just on his Veteran stance alone! But then againg there is no way in HELL I could ever vote for a Rethuglian… They have fucked this country enough already and they must bnever be given another chance… No three strikes or anything like that…
late late nite upstairs
Doing Late Late tonight, suzanne?
Yep.. And some Kapos for the camps were Jewish. My former spouse from Skopie had great aunts and uncles he never met because a few collaborationists provided cover to the eliminatioinsts.
Your point?
Senator Obama chooses to appear before and take questions from an eliminationist anti-choice homophobe: the guy who runs the Saddleback Church that chose to pay the fellow who advised the “snuff ‘em for Jesus” video game desrcibed in the frakkin post.
The guy who showed up in Africa spouting eliminationist rheotric where it gets people killed.
Obama’s not showing up to take questions from an LGBT leader at the LGBT leader’s place.
He’s showing up to take questions from the eliminationist antichoice homophobe Rick Warren at Rick Warren’s place.
Your point?
HA!
When will the MSM pick up on this story? Obama drives away Gay voters, Obama drives away Netroots. I thought the MSM was pushing a Dems are divided meme.
Figures when we are really divided because Obama is moving toward GOP ideas the media won’t cover the story because it shows how Left the country is compared to Washington DC and the MSM talking heads.
Ah Oh…. Sheriff Joe is on my TeeVee….. the mayor of Phoenix has asked the Civil Rights division of the DOJ to investigate him for racial profiling….
Mayor Phil Gordon (Phoenix) have asked the national media to shine a light on this issue……
Start reading here:
My point is fairness.
To the dead gays in Uganda?
To the women who need the abortions Warren would have them denied?
To the UU congregants whose murderer left the letter describing his eliminationist beliefs — and how those bleifs led him to kill?
How many lives and women’s choices would you be comfortable watching sacrificed to eliminationist hate preachers — for “fairness”?
Fern, I did not know this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I hope Obama (or as some here may say, Obambi) exposes Warren’s shortcomings. I think he will, but I don’t think the media will get it right. In other words, we’ll be the only ones who “get it”. Most of us, anyway.
…dreamland where hoefully all is well.
A dreamland with hoes makes all well?
LOL. if i had to choose between chocolate and beer… well you keep the beer and i’ll take the chocolate. *g*
Here’s the conclusion of the cited post in said linkie:
Wow.
Rick Warren the eliminationist anti-choice hate-preacher sure told his LGBT co-hosts where to get off.
Hey – Warren’s not the first anti-LGBT eliminationist preacher to tell gay folk where (and how) to get off.
I guess I really do need to revise the post.
After The Massacre: Now Will Obama Break Off His Date With Manpiulative Eliminationist Hate Preachers?
fork.
second revision –
After The Massacre: Now Will Obama Break Off His Date With Manipulative Eliminationist Hate Preachers?
Obama’s decision goes beyond appearing beofre a group: his choices put the eliminationist hate preacher Warren at the center of Obama’s public appearance.
If we don’t start talking to/debating these ‘people’, How do we reach/teach/change their/their supporters perceptions of us?
Barak, through-out his whole campaign, has opened pathways to subjects/converstaions that have needed to be honestly faced and talked about. That is important.
‘My broader question (not for you, Twain, but for Obama and our citizens)
If appearing before and taking questions from an eliminationist hate-preacher is OK….
– why not a neo-Nazi?
– why not a KKK Grand Dragon?
– why not the North American Man Boy Love Association?’
Ok, Dr. Murphy’s two posts in three days on this topic bring me out of lurk mode for the first time since registration was required. (I know I’m deep in EPU-land, but it took several hours for my registration to go through.)
I’m a liberal Christian. (I realize that invalidates my opinions to some of you who are here, but so be it.) Dad’s a pastor, mother-in-law is a pastor, uncle (who keeps FDL as his home page) is a pastor, an ex-uncle is a UU pastor. All four of them are more liberal than me, and none of us resemble the stereotype that some commenters have about Christians. And none of us have any appreciation for Rick Warren’s theology, leadership, or ministry style, which does usually seem to be more about Rick Warren than it is about God.
After years of trying to ward off the folks in my congregation who’ve read “the Purpose Driven Life” and “the Purpose Driven Church” and think they have all the answers for our congregation’s future, it’s ironic what I’m about to do: defend Rick Warren. There are a lot of negative things that one can say about him with nary a peep of objection from me; in fact, you might even get some Amens from me.
But it’s a stretch to suggest that Rick Warren is an “eliminationist hate preacher.” You could put him in a line-up with Hagee, Parsley, Dobson, Robertson and sing (ala Sesame Street): “One of these things is not like the other.” Unlike others, Warren has shown an ability for his thinking to mature and change. He’s one of the ones who has realized that the faith community has more that should concern it than the issues of choice and homosexuality–issues on which I strongly disagree with him, btw.
Regardless of Dr. Murphy’s extrapolation, I find it bordering on slanderous to suggest repeatedly that Warren would approve of the happenings in Knoxville last weekend. It is not a stretch, but a completely unsupported leap, to equate his ministry with the neo-Nazis, KKK, or NAMBLA–and again, I’m not a Warren fan in the least. (You’ll just have to take my word for it.)
Based on what I read, it appears that Obama disagrees with him on a number of issues. But sitting down for a conversation with someone who disagrees with you is not a human failing, Dr. Murphy. You do know that conversing with those who disagree with you is one of the most effective ways to bring someone around to your point of view?
Most of us aren’t able to live in a bubble where no dissent is brooked and everyone agrees with us. (GWBush being an exception, unfortunately.) Obama is running for office. He is going to talk to a lot of people who don’t agree with everything he says. Heck, I couldn’t get elected in my own house if I only communicated with those who agree with me completely.
I submit that we’ve had enough of leaders who only hear what they want to hear and only speak to sycophantic audiences. This nation would be a lot better off if we could remember how to engage in civil discourse. Firedoglake is usually a place where I come to find that discourse, but the Doctor’s two posts on this topic have been sorely disappointing.
Hey there, your friendly neighborhood Talk to Action writer here. Thanks for the linky goodness to my Left Behind Games pieces, Doc.
Dave Neiwert at Orcinus has been documenting and exposing eliminationist rhetoric since at least 2005. Neiwert defines elimationism:
What, really, is eliminationism?
It’s a fairly self-explanatory term: it describes a kind of politics and culture that shuns dialogue and the democratic exchange of ideas for the pursuit of outright elimination of the opposing side, either through complete suppression, exile and ejection, or extermination.
Dr. Murphy points to several examples of Rev. Rick Warren’s advancement of eliminationist rhetoric. For example, there’s this quote:
When Rev. Warren suggests that gay rights are other than human rights, he is advancing eliminationist rhetoric. When he states that homosexuality is not natural and not to be tolerated, he is advancing the position that homosexuality is unnatural and to be — what’s the opposite of tolerated? — oh yeah: eliminated.
Oops. To clarify, this entire quote should be attributed to Dave Neiwert:
jhuston, welcome to the Lake!
Congrats on your new role as Chief Communications Officer at Physicians For Human Rights. Their work is awesome. This afternoon I’ve had the opportunity to review your strong work at Daily Kos: it’s easy to see why tireless human rights defenders like the folks at PHR would want you on their team.
In looking over your work, I belatedly came upon another reason for joy: Congrats on Chris 2.0!
Though just about any reasons for congratulations are trifling compared to the birth of a child, congratulations also on the very strong work you did at Talk2Action (shared on your Kos diary).
Congrats also on having the courage and integrity required to make public Rick Warren’s links to the eliminationist video game that – until you exposed the murderous intolerance – prominently featured Warren’s mega-church.
Thanks for the kind words, Doc, and the linky goodness to my Talk to Action and Daily Kos posts — even the birth announcement of Chris 2.0. You are thorough. But no link to my
Live Blog: World Series, Game 4, Part II? Dude!
;-)
jhuston, thanks also for laying bare Rick Warren’s deep connections with the eliminationist video game:
Thanks also to Talk4Action for describing how Warren’s attempt to pretend he’s not associated with this hateful eliminationist game is a transparent lie:
oops: my bad. never learned to throw overhand ’til I was 28!
(yep, I’m a nerd)
Oh – in addition to his nasty little problem about eliminationist video games, Obama’s chosen questioner Rev Warren gave hate preacher Archbishop Akinola a big ‘ol fluff job in Time. Remember Akinola? He’s the lovely religious “leader” in charge of the massacre militia Attaturk informed us about:
Hey — Archbishop Akiniola: whatta guy, huh? Just the sort of the man of the cloth you can sit down and down a cup of
beerblood with.Just the guy Rev Warren — the man Obama chooses to appear and take questions from — chose to give a big sloppy fulsome PR blow job. Cause the murderous virulent homophobe Akinola is the guy Rick Warren chose to fluff for Time:
Sure.
Cause for Rick Warren – the right-wing eliminationist hate preacher Sen Obama freely chooses to appear before and answer questions from – nothing spells biblical and courageous like the leader of the militia that hacked off arms and legs, raped women, and massacred children.
Senator Obama isn’t a grad student off interviewing religious “leaders” for his masters thesis.
Senator Obama isn’t a religious pilgrim off on a quest to find his guru.
Senator Obama isn’t an itinerant reverend seeking the next congregation to preach to.
Senator Obama is the presumptive Democratic nominee for President, and de facto leader of the Democratic Party.
Senator Obama aspires to be Most Powerful Man In The World.
Senator Obama has Secret Service protection: no one makes him show up anywhere he doesn’t want to be.
Progressives reviled Reagan’s choice to make his first campaign stop after the 1980 Convention in the Mississippi town where three Freedom Riders were brutally murdered in 1964.
Reagan’s mere presence sent a dog-whistle message: hate crimes are OK with Ronnie.
Obama’s choice of eliminationist homophobic anti-choice hate preacher Rick Warren to host his first campaign appearance with McSame
– and Obama’s choice to submit to forty-five minutes of public questions from a right-wing hate preacher –
Obama’s choices implicitly confer approval on Rick Warren.
Obama’s dog-whistle message: Rick Warren’s OK.
Obama’s dog-whistle message and his choices aboout Warren defile the Senator, the Democratic Party, and — should Obama become President — the Republic.
Rick Warren’s public fawning over the murderous Akinola, together with Warren’s eliminationist hate speech, mark him out as being every bit as evil as a Neo-Nazi leader or a KKK Grand Dragon.
Obama’s choice to appear before Warren and to publicly submit to the hate preacher’s questions for forty-five minutes confers implicit legitimacy upon a despicable man and a violent, deeply anti-democratic ideology.
Will Obama break off his date with Rick Warren and the depraved hate preaching Warren pushes?
Will Obama wake up and ask himself: “hey — I was a community organizer in Chicago — what am I doing with a right-wing hate preacher?”
Or will he show up in a couple a weeks to bend his knee before America’s most prominent eliminationist preacher?
And if he does show up with Warren — will there ever be anyone too odious for even Obama to show up….if it could mean a few more votes?
Thanks, doc — for clearly showing that the avuncular, Hawaiian shirt-wearing Rick Warren is in fact, a dangerous demagogue who espouses eliminationist views, even while politely courting the rich and powerful and seeking control over whole nations.
We know that political leaders have to deal with all kinds of people, but it is important to know who you are talking to, when you do. That said, I agree that allowing Warren to serve as a broker and question the candidates is an exceptionally bad idea.