Hey, Kirk!

Umm, maybe because he doesn’t yet realize the utter futility of trying to reach out to the brain-dead.

I don’t know.

Why?

i sense a knock knock joke. please let me be wrong.

Why does “reaching out” always equal swerving rightward?

Hey Kirk how goes it?? Will you be at Suz’s POD party next Sunday??

dugg
You can too!

What does Reverend Warren mean, “not natural?” Is homosexuality “artificial,” like Splenda or Nutrasweet?

Hi Kirk — lots of unnatural stuff going on at Dore Alley today….

Hi MayDaze! Sure wish I could answer your question: especially when “reaching out” is a move right of where the majority of voters may be found.

Gregory, I fear your answer may be correct.

Adie, maybe we can come up with a knock-knock joke here….

Nahant, I’m well — how are you? I look forward to being there – are you going?

Oooh – will it stil be happening later this afternoon? I may have to go and avert my tender eyes…..

Thanks for the digg!

(FWIW, Splenda may well be dangerous: being gay is natural. Jeebus — what do fundies have against biology?)

Sneaking up on McCaint from the wrong side of the herd, to see who spooks 1st and whether they scatter like moderates?

http://attackerman.firedoglake…..omment-994
http://attackerman.firedoglake…..mment-1018
http://attackerman.firedoglake…..omment-996

I’m trying to get serious about this. I got nothin’.

I am simply not worried about Obama’s instincts.

LOOK at how he’s doing so far.

Are you worried about what he does?

Other people maybe. But him? NO. Not me. Not particularly.

Call me naive. And NO. I don’t agree with him on everu nuance of every single issue. But in general, I’m not worried about him as a candidate or a strong, caring, gifted potential leader of our country.

I am more disappointed with Obama every day. If anyone like me signed up at Obama’s site, your in-box would have been bombarded with literally thousands of e-mails asking Obama to stand up for civil liberties and vote against the FISA disaster.

I went to Obama’s Web Page to try to unsubscribe. I could not find a way to unsubscribe. I finally found a way to not receive emails. That accomplished what I needed to do. It took much time to delete all the emails imploring Obama to do the right thing on FISA.

That, of course, fell on deaf ears.

Well, here we go again. A solid dose of nervousness about his choices. The holding on to any hope by shredded nails and weaker hands. Clinging to a shard of what he originally promised while watching him move decidedly in the opposite direction.
*sigh*

what do fundies have against biology?

They don’t understand it, because they always avert their eyes so they’ll remain pure and simply, blind.

notKnockKnock…

How bout tap tap tap? as in “wake up folks. there’s world goin’ on out here.”

Actually, Rick Warren had the guts to invite Obama to deliver some sensible pro-condom discussion of AIDS to Warren’s congregation back in 2006.

This pissed off The Usual Right-Wing Suspects:

“Why Is Obama’s Evil In Rick Warren’s Pulpit?“

““Rick Warren/Barack Obama AIDS Partnership Must End, Say Pro-Life Groups”

Still pissed at the mammal from the earlier thread, eh? ;)

I guess I’m not as sold on Obama as you are, but he sure as hell outclasses his competition.

That was exactly my experience. And I’m TRYING to get my donation money back, because of FISA. I figured if I hit the campaign in the wallet, maybe someone would pay attention. But I’m struggling to get a response on those requests for returns. It hasn’t happened yet.
I must add here, that though I’m way unhappy with him since he won the primary, I STILL think he’s a better choice than “hil”. Actually, he’s about to sink to same as far as any comparison I ever made of them.
Between him and Pelosi and Reid, I fear greatly that we are in more trouble than we ever expected or anticipated.

The sign would make more sense if they took the “h” out of “threat”

Geez – I lived in San Francisco during the 80’s and 90’s, so the Dore Alley fair for me will always be the Ringold Alley fair …

It seems that the candidate is determined to prove that he is not who the netroots thought he was. it’s working.

Though some of us figured that out a while ago. This is not his first foray with Warren.

Essentially he knows that the progressives have no where to go and he assumes he will get all of our votes no matter what he does or says. That may be true for most, but the enthusiasm for working for him and donating to the campaign has to be waning by now.

The Democracy Now interview by Amy Goodman with Cass Sunstein and Glenn Greenwald via telephone was truly a time capsule moment. Greenwald is so very right and Sunstein is so very Milquetoast and wrong.

That Obama has the famous Sunstein in his camp is a sign that nothing of consequence will happen to Bushco perps. We just don’t have the stomach for punishing (Republican) government criminality via our court system.

Capitalism for the poor and Socialism for the rich.

Gee, why worry about:

- a lecturer in Con Law who throws the 4th Amendment under the bus?

- a Dem Senator who throws people with mental health conditions at risk of harm from pregnancy undr the bus?

- an aspirant to run the Executive brach who fawns upon the Hamilton Project crooks who threw our abnking system under the bus?

- an ambitious pol who cozies up to a right-wing hate preacher after throwing his own pastor under the bus?

What, me worry?

Call me naive. And NO. I don’t agree with him on every nuance of every single issue. But in general, I’m not worried about him as a candidate or a strong, caring, gifted potential leader of our country.

Well, he’s certainly pissed me off a few times here lately – but in general I’m with you as to this sentiment.

I caught a little of MTP this morning, and felt a little better about BHO after catching the number of times he laughed in Brokaw’s face.

I figure that at next year’s Netroots Nation, either we are going to be pleasantly surprised and feel like celebrating

or

we will be on the warpath.

Either way, I’ll be there in a better mood than I’ve been in lately.

Dear Rev Warren also states that gays and women who have abortion need to seek forgiveness — for the “sin” of their biology and their medical conditions.

So some fundies are evenmore intolerant than he is.

Warren’s still a right-wing hate preacher.

What precisely is your point, PW?

sometimes I get a little a-scared that Obama may be Bush’s third term.. Something’s not right here. Are we getting fooled?

Here you go Teddy! Act Naturally

The Audacity of Hope

Well Doc, we could band together and vote for Johnny McTeleprompter who ran after Rev. Hagee who thinks Jews, Blacks, Homosexuals, and Live Babies Only (zygotes & fetuses are okay) to die without being fed welfare food!

Let’s do it! Let’s throw everything we’ve ever stood for by voting for Johnny! Oh how America is going to be on the right track with this man! And let’s hope he’s George Bush’s 3rd term, 4th term, and maybe even if a 5th after we all make the laws are changed to do so!!!!

/snark

Yep Kirk bring da chili because of popular demand… Should be fun my sweetie and Tucker will joining us also!! See you there:>)

wait. wait.

Basically we may agree.

he sure as hell outclasses his competition.

How long has it been since that happened?

I don’t think we know the half of what he might do as President, but I have a sense that I could live with it. Mebbe I’m crazy. Mebbe not.

I DO know I would be terrified if mccaint were elected. Starting with the fact that I think he is flat-out UNFIT to hold the job, and move on DOWN from there.

Don’t worry. I won’t sit here and claim Obama is perfect. That’s not the point.

If he gets in office with an honest, qualified veep, and enuf of a margin in Congress, plus Congressional leaders of high quality, the “package” has great potential for doing good things, imo.

That’s the sum total, pretty much. Yes, it contains an awful lot of “ifs”.

Methinks we all need to stay tuned and stay involved. eh?

Johnny McTeleprompter is only saying he loves the gays just so you’ll vote for him in November! That’s okay because he didn’t pick Rick Warren like Barack Obama did!

/snark again

When Ms Goodman asked him to tell us what was wonderful about Obama, Mama Cass Sunstein said that Obama is a Constitutional Expert! with a calm, steady demeanor.

Johnny doesn’t know the difference between Russia & Germany, thinks Iraq borders Pakistan, has no idea what the hell the Constitution says, can’t tell the difference between the Shiites and the Sunnis, and still refers to the Czech Republic as Czechoslovakia. But that’s okay! He wasn’t in charge of picking Rick Warren, so therefore, WE LOVE JOHNNY MCTELEPROMPTER AND MUST NOW VOTE FOR HIM! Let’s throw it all under the bus for the guy who wears diapers and needs a teleprompter to answer questions with!

Right?

I’m going to break character and be optimistic about something Obama’s done. He’s talking to people progressives normally don’t have much to do with. That could be a good thing, depending what he says.

I think you’re right – we basically agree. I definitely agree with your last sentence.

And, as you say, a McSame Presidency is just plain scary.

Of course we worry, but we also worry that the alternative is much, much worse.

My energy and wee political purse are now devoted solely to Blue America candidates, but I think we also have a responsibility not to discourage activism, enthusiasm, and support for Obama from the Democratic base. There comes a time when discouraging words about our nominee will have a price.

is that price a McCain presidency, and are we willing to pay that price? I am not.

It will be necessary to apply corrective action throughout the Obama presidency, I have no doubt. I have also laid out my arguments for a primary challenge in 2012. But, at some point, we need to say, This is the only vessel we have, and the vessel we must use to regain the power.

Whether we he disappoints as President is quite another issue. But we simply must get there. The alternative is awful to contemplate.

False choices are great rhetorical tricks — for junior high debate teams.

The Repub party moved from somewhat centrist public policy positions of the Rockefeller Repub era to far more ideological positionsin the Reagan/Bush era in response to advocacy and criticism by those on the party’s right wing.

The Dem Party’s Prez candidate — like the Dem Party Congressional “leadership” — supports policies rightward of those held by the majority of Dems (and rightward of even most of Nixon’s domestic policies!)

Relentless focus on how the Dem leaders — including Obama — betray their base is the same method shown be successful in influencing natinal policy for most of the past 30 years. Except, of course, then the technique was used by the Rethugs.

I hope progressives in states where Obama faces a competitive race with McSame vote Dem. They can do so and still criticize Obama on every decision that runs against progressive values.

Like cozying up to a right-wing hate preacher who beleives being gay and exercising reprodutive freedom are sinful.

To suggest criticism of Obama equates advocacy of voting for McSame is a very transparent rhetorical trick.

Elected officials – Federal, state, and local – are our servants, not our sports teams. I’m intersted in policies, not fan clubs.

Exactly. I would have freaked if he had chosen Rev. Hagee for this. Trust me. But if we throw up our arms and throw in the towel at the drop of a hat, what does that say about us? We’re cut and runners when it gets too tough? Well, I’m not like that. One of my son’s friends has a father that is overly religious, republican, and was a jackboot licker of George Bush’s policies. I talked with him for years by supplying a dose of truth. Turns out, he and his wife are supporting Barack Obama. Believe me when I say this is a huge awakening in this man’s life!

That said, the Democrats in DC will probably have Barack Obama impeached over something extremely stupid and I will feel as embarrassed as I do right now. The fact the Democrats of this country eat each other’s feet while allowing the right wingers of our nation to get away with crimes breaks my heart. It’s very disappointing and I refuse to be like them. Let’s work to get Johnny out and to work to better our party.

Yay! Teddy, are you and the fiance coming? (and when are we going to see you “sinners” make an honest couple and get hitched?)

Hey! I’m worried too, okay?!

To repeat some errant thot of mine that was slapped down some days ago:

I think ALL the candidates and most of the pols, the media, bidness in general, interest groups… ALL are variously unnerved by the obviously incredible strength of the netroots.

I think they are all at varying stages of trying to figure out how to handle this power in the election and governance realm.: ignore? panic? use? acknowledge? attempt to steer? assert some independence in response to this powerful new force

That last thingie, asserting independence. It’d be a biggie in the mind of a potentially powerful leader. So much so that he/she might even do some deliberate things to prove that independence, just once in a great while.

…not something akin to face-shooter’s overactions. milder. but clearly his own path, once in awhile…

Ya-think???

THAT’S what I’m talking about. I hope it makes some sense. It’s the most positive offering I can come up with at the moment. But I’ve been counting on it for some time now.

BHO is doing what he thinks he needs to do to get elected. With the choice effectively down to BHO or McStain, you’d have to be as delusional as the average rightard to vote for McStain. I don’t like this, I think BHO is wrong on this choice and I’m still PO’d over the FISA capitulation. But the task at hand is to elect a guy who might at least listen to us (and elect senators and congresscritters who will do better than that) and it’s clear that McStain never will. And don’t forget the Supreme Court. The sane justices are getting on in years.

Even if I end up, as has almost always been the case, casting my presidential ballot *against* one candidate this year, I believe that I”ll feel better about the beneficiary of that “no” vote than in many years past.

Adie, I sure hope you’re right correct!

Hi Kirk — lots of unnatural stuff going on at Dore Alley today….

So my Mistress promises…

Uh sorry, but I don’t play tricks with anyone. FireDogLake isn’t a blog where only 35 people come to view it everyday. It has power and guaranteed those who read this blog who might be on the fence about Barack Obama will see us lambasting and will use it as their decision to not support him. Every single time there is a anti-Obama post on here or on the other powerful liberal blogs, what happens? Many people say, “That’s it! I can’t vote for him! No more money from me!”. And then what happens? They start to look at McCain differently. I’m not saying Barack Obama is perfect. No way. None of us are, but when compared to Johnny and George Bush and Dick Cheney, he is it.

But hey! It will be the Democrats who will end up losing it for Barack Obama in the end anyways. Guaranteed. It will be embarrassing to watch.

I think my plans to clean the house this afternoon may need revision. Dayam — if I’d just planned ahead, I could watch someone else clean it.

Wonder if there’s such a thing as vegan leather?

And when do the large popular liberal blogs ever post a email link to a right winger for us to lambaste him/her with? Rarely if ever. Oh, but if Barack Obama does something that we’re not comfortable with, his email link, telephone number, and fax number is provided!

We’ve got to stop doing this as far as I’m concerned.

And let’s be clear about FISA, criminal charges have not been taken off the table and the ACLU is suing over FISA too.

Kucinich was the one I perceived to be closest to my thinking early on but visions of him with a helmet on in a tank kept entering my consciousness.
Priority 1 has to be relegating the repub/greed party to the history books.

The way the wotld is versus the way they want it according to their religion. The fundies believe what they believe. But sadly Obama is obviously pandering to them. That is a low percentsge move. he will lose more than he will gain.
Choice is personal period and he has to know it…so what is up?
Gay is not a choice it is a biologically mediated preferce.
Maybe he is trying to piss off the Log Cabin Republicans. My bet is Trex has and answer anyone seen his comments?

Correct. It’s a HOPE, not a claim to knowledge other than what you yourself have before you.

Thank you for understanding.

We are all gamblers. But that doesn’t mean we don’t peek at the cards at every opportunity.

Obama appears to be what we possess to hold or to fold.

With the right team and some serious netroots, that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

After catching a recent book salon featuring Cory Doctorow, I ordered his book “Little Brother”. If you haven’t had the chance to read it yet, I highly recommend it. And for those of us with teenaged offspring, I recommend giving it to them. My 13-year-old daughter (straight-A student) is getting my copy as soon as she comes back from camp, and I will insist she discuss it with me … she’ll be trapped, we have a family vacation coming in August. There’s a lot in that book to give you real pause about the potential for domestic spying. I live in North Texas, where toll roads are cropping up more and more … I’ve never liked the idea of toll roads, and after reading this book I like them even less (think Toll Tags and tracking your vehicle).

Sorry for the OT, but what more is there to say on the current topic?

Dr. Murphy,

I apologize for this OT question; I tried to get in last night, but my computer acted up. My question is with regards to the studies on cell phone use and cancer and other health related problems: Have they done studies on the health effects of having hearing aids and their batteries and electronics or do they work sufficiently differently that it couldn’t be a problem? I’m not trying to be a problem, just truly curious.

With apologies,
Heather

We already had this conversation last year regarding Rev. Donnie McClurkin.

Kirk:

Why does Obama want bigots like anti-choice anti-gay Rev. Warren to host his campaign appearances?

I think a better question is: Why is anyone surprised about this? Obama has made it clear from the beginning that he is a centrist. He won the primaries by reaching out to the Indies and Pukes. I pointed this out over and over and everyone shouted me down. Now everyone is acting surprised. I don’t get it.

KayInMaine: Good on ya! ;->

The only hope is that the dem majority will allow some sensible people who demand truth and reconciliation… oops I mean accountability to press that issue. In this congress there margin is so slim that there will be noting. If Bush tries to pardon the lot before they are even charged with anything that might even inspire some one to turn on the kleg lights for some real sunlight on their lawlessness.

I wouldn’t expect the new president to go after the past administration, but the congress and even private cases might go forward wending their way to a NEW supreme court. Justice could be slow and that could work while these old codgers are replace with some sensible jurists who are there to protect the constitution and our inalienable rights.

We DO need to press a new agenda and that is very important. But there is plenty of competence to go after these criminals.

I’d like to see them close down that scum Powell once and for all. I don’t for the life of me understand why such a liar is held in such high esteem.

But the neocon crew all need to meet the bar of justice head on.

pleather… you betcha

“Why does Obama….”

Because he thinks he’ll get more votes if he attends than if he doesn’t- votes are the currency of the day and everything revolves around them

yeah, like for the last 8 years!

sorry for the delay here, but i had noodle salad to tend to.

But that presents a contradiction. What is his change if he wants to be a centrist?

Haven’t we been there for decades? Since he’s not on the right to me that would me a move to the left – but a tap dance in place is not “change”.

Let’s see how the left is embraced or locked out of the party come December after the votes are counted. Let’s see if they listen to the people THIS time. Nancy how about a nice villa to spend time with your grandchildren?

Thanks for this post, Kirk. I read about this earlier this week… and I do not support a human being or a candidate who provides cover for haters on a pulpit. Hate lite is not an excuse, Senator Obama.

Whomever posted the painting link down stairs.. thanks. I like the work.

As trogdolytish as he seems by big-city standards, Rick Warren sounds like he’s trying to pull his fellow Fundies into the 20th century in time for the 21st. In addition to allowing Obama to deliver a pro-condom AIDS prevention message at his megachurch in 2006, he led the first wave of evangelicals to recognize the existence of and the danger posed by global warming.

This has not endeared him to the hardcores:

“Rick Warren’s Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan Exposed!”

Made from oil?

Pam points out that the wingnut fundies are all a-twist in their knickers over this forum at Warren’s church as well:

WingNutDaily and the American Family Association are beside themselves at the news about megachurch pastor and author Rick Warren teaming up with Faith in Public Life, which supports The Homosexual Agenda. Even more unsettling for the wingers is the fact that Warren blew off the AFA’s “news organ” OneNewsNow when asked about it instead of condemning the organization.

I suppose the Obama camp might view this as “we must be doing something right, since everyone’s pissed off.”

For me the priority is in the policies. With that strategic goal, one tactic is to defeat Rethugs, while another is to push Dem officials to follow progressive policies. For the first goal, I hope every progressive Dem in a competitive state votes for the Dem Prez candidate over McSame. For the second goal, I hope to see progressives vociferously criticize Dems and Dem candidates whenever the pols fall away from progressive values.

Choosing a right-wing hate preacher who inveighs against gays and reproductive rights is an immense departure from progressive values. The ambitious Senator from Illinois was sufficiently affected by heat about FISA that he flip-flopped over to saying he’d lead the fight against FISA amnesty (before, of course, he flip-flopped back to the support of FISA he announced the day the House passed FISA amnesty).

[Here, of course, I’m using the term “flip-flop” as it has become the synonym for “lying” among pols.]

Progressives have already seen the consequences of jumping to support a candidate without pushing the candidate to explicitly embrace progressive values and positions. As Obama has tracked rightward of the majority of voters, at least some polls indicate his support has declined. Of course, that’s exactly what happened to the Dem Congress as they have tracked rightward of the majority of the public.

Ambitious Obama is clearly choosing to identify with Village values — when he showed up for the Hamilton Project’s hatch-out, he showed up to bend his knee before Citibank’s Robert Reuben: the prime mover behind the Glass-Steagel (?sp) repeal that accelerated the collapse of our economy.

The public hates the Village: that’s why about 9% think Congress is doing a good job.

Now that Obama’s too besotted with the Power he has long craved to notice he’s moving rightward of the voting populace and majority opinion, progressives’ relentless criticism of his right turns may help him win the election he seems determined to triangulate away.

Personally, I think that McCain has more to lose with this type of forum. Barack has spoken before about gay rights and abortion and he is comfortable talking about those issues in a religious setting. McCain is trying to pretend that he’s an independent on those issues and anyone who saw him try to duck the gay adoption issue on “This Week” with George this morning could tell he was uncomfortable. It’s important to keep the independents who might vote for him guessing. Barack will probably not gain votes by this type of forum but it’s important to talk about religion and the Democratic party. The repubs have tried to own that issue.

Thank you KaylnMaine for all your posts offering a glimmer of sanity to this thread. Since when does choosing (agreeing) to have someone moderate a debate equal to subscribing to all of that person’s views, anyway? All you people who want Obama to run on the positions that the most progressive of us (among whom I count myself) believe obviously never want to win the White House. You guys do this to us every election, and frankly I’m sick of you.

And let’s not forget when most of us were supporting Dennis Kucinich, John Edwards, or whoever, Barack Obama had these stances. He hasn’t moved too much away from where he’s always been. Meanwhile, Johnny McTeleprompter continues to flip flop on all his core beliefs just to get elected. He’s a disgrace.

The utter naivete of comments like this make one despair. Try to remember what planet you are on and in which country the election is taking place. A higher percentage of Americans self-identify as Christians than Israelis self-identify as Jews. Every single major party candidate kisses up to Rick Warren. Hillary Clinton delivered a sermon at his church during the primary election. A Democratic candidate who did not kiss up to Rick Warren would be stupid and irresponsible.

The goal of a candidate is to win the election. That is why New York Mayoral candidates kiss up to union leaders and Hassidic Rabbis and why Democratic presidential candidates look for support from Rick Warren and even why Democratic Presidents and their wives spend time with trogdolytes like Billy Graham.

Hi Heather -

Thanks for your interest. Sorry to hear about the computer problems. That thread’s still open: I’ll take your very good question over there (should get to it shortly after 2 PM).

I disagree that Barack chose him rather than Warren chose both candidates and Barack accepted. He might not have had another opportunity to speak to this type of audience.

Between him and Pelosi and Reid, I fear greatly that we are in more trouble than we ever expected or anticipated.

That is a real area that K street will exploit. Senator Fritz Hollings just cameout with a book on how most congress critters have to spend most of their efforts on the money trail.
How will these two issues be used against the dems.
At some juncture a stand on pricipals must be made…not holding my breath.
I have spent ime in the neocon churches…quite a few growing up and when I had my wits about me…they are some of the most up tight people on the planet. Their compassion is reserved for their flocks and to hell with the rests of the folks. On the other hand their are millions of commited religious folks who have “tolerance”. And a smaller group of christians who would welcome gays into their membership. Not so much with choice.
Church and state have firmly reunited under Regan through Bush.
The Clinton centrist moving dems made the party comfortable with the across the aisle move to the right. That notion seems alive a well.

OK, so I’ll go out on a limb and make a prediction: Obama is going to throw the gays under the bus at this forum. Remember, I correctly predicted his flip-flop on abortion rights.

We keep saying…’that’s okay’ …he will not betray us….again, and again and again. That train has left the station for me.

Why thank you. ;-)

I’m not “sick” of the people above who are giving up on Barack Obama. It’s much easier to beat up ourselves then it is to get in the car and beat up another person across town who has pissed us off. The FDL Firepups are unique and I like them all. Honestly, I don’t think I could ever be sick of them! That said, I know what you mean about some Democrats who are so centrist in their beliefs that when something doesn’t adhere to their belief, they go to the “right” side of the road. This is why being in the middle of the road is the most dangerous place to be. See? LOL

“Choosing a right-wing hate preacher who inveighs against gays and reproductive rights” to do what? Moderate a debate? And you supposedly believe in the Bill of Rights? Your “ideal” candidate wouldn’t answer questions by someone who doesn’t believe everything you do? Rick Warren isn’t a hate preacher just because he doesn’t believe what you believe – he’s not trying to institutionalize anti-gay policies, and his views on abortion are held by lots of people who aren’t haters. I don’t agree with him, but he’s not a hater, and even if he is a hater, he’s allowed to ask questions in public.

Where did he flip flop on abortion rights? He’s always been pro-choice but would rather most women would NOT choose abortion, but if they do choose abortion as an option, he would not take that right away from them.

I agree, I’ don’t remember the city but a gay candidate in California held a fundraiser for Obama who later refused to be photographed with the guy.

Okay, let’s take some time to do some studying. Here’s Barack’s stances on the issues:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

(you have to run your mouse cursor over the word “issues” at the top of the page for the drop-down menu)

KaylnMaine, the reason I’m sick of the people who are finding reasons to diss Obama is because we’ve lost too many elections because people can’t come together. One of the reasons Obama chose the church he went to for so long was because for a long time the denomination is the ONLY one which didn’t discriminate against gay people. He has LIVED his beliefs and now he’s trying to get elected in a country where not everyone is progressive on every issue. If people are intelligent enough to post on FDL, they’re smart enough not to sabotage a good candidate.

The agenda needs work for the convention lobbying these folks may be the best way to get as much as we can.

He said he would not support late term abortions when it was solely based on mental distress for the mother. Many cases of late term abortions are done for medical reasons like a child without a brain, a huge hydrocephalic head or a dead fetus which will only deliver if carried to term. It is another chink in the support for women’s rights.

Thanks Dr. Murphy,

With gratitude,
Heather

With regard to Barack Obama, I think we’re best served to think of him along the same lines as John Kennedy and the Civil Rights Movement.

He believes us, he’s with us. Now we have to make him do it. By that, I think Kennedy meant more, “Make it possible for me to do it.”

BC

gloria, the Bill of Rights discusses limits on governmental power. The First Amendment seeks to ensure freedom of speech and freedom of association ar efree of interference by governmental agencies.

Last time I checked, neither I nor FDL are goverments.

Nor does criticing the Dem Who Would Be President’s choice to show up with a right-wing hate preacher who believes exercise of reproductive freedom and being gay are sins constitute a violation ofthe ambitous pol’s Constitutional rights.

I’d be equally critical if Obama chose to have a Minuteman or Neo-Nazi moderate the public appearance he chose to make with McCain.

Would his supporters here be critical of such choices, or would their identification with their chosen candidate be so great they’d find ways to excuse that, also?

I see it just the other way around. I was alarmed when most of the firepups were blindly falling in love with Obama but as soon as he flip-flopped on FISA most of them reacted angrily, and I was surprised and favorably impressed with them. Then he flip-flopped on abortion rights and again we called him on it. Now he’s about to flip-flop on gay rights (I’m predicting) and again, instead of obediently kowtowing to him the Obamapups will call him on it.

But I’m afraid they will still almost all vote for him.

I’ve been voting since 1964 and I’m trying to think of the last politician who did everything as I would have preferred. I watched Obama today answer questions for an audience of journalists of color. Aside from the usual Republican talking point questions, he was asked: if he would apologize to Native Americans for their historic and current treatment; if he favored a greater or lesser number of immigrants and from what parts of the world; if he now felt he was black enough or too black; whether he did not think his constant denials of being a Muslim was not offensive to Muslims; etc, etc..
He was able to pull it off well, but I’m sure some will take offense at some the answers. I’m somewhat encouraged that someone as intelligent as he is still willing to take on the job of the presidency.

I agree with addie’s comment. I believe he is smart, rational, well intentioned, and does not wish ill to any particular group. Of course, I may be wrong, but he’s the only decent choice we’ve got, and I just hope we don’t undermine him.

Define “mental distress”. What if the mother’s “mental distress” is coming from the idea that she doesn’t want to be a mother and is stressing out about it? I highly doubt anyone would support a woman to abort her fetus that late in the game. Right? The term “mental distress” is not clearly defined and needs to be. If the mother is bleeding to death and it’s causing “mental distress” then I could see it being the sole reason for a late term abortion. Late term abortions are rare. Thankfully.

Yep. Obama’s choice to oppose reproductive freedom for patients with mental health reasons to require pregnancy termination is also grossly discriminatory.

I wonder if he supports withdrawing ADA protections form those with menatl health diagnoses, as well?

No, he came out against late term abortions and he even explicitly said he was against a health exception for the mother. It’s outrageous that liberals continue to support him after that. Abortion rights are a very important issue. Women are going to die because of it.

I share your concerns.

I view the politicians’ reactions as related to what I put up at #39.

I don’t regard Obama as a bigoted or narrow person, not in the slightest.
I want him properly sobered by the power of the netroots, but not feeling bullied.

Surely he has some considerable ego to be running for this post, so we should try to influence, of course we should. But it’s ridiculous, unrealistic, and unfair for every single politically conscious person to demand that a political candidate satisfy every single one of his/her policy whims.

I’m taking a wait and see approach on some of this campaigning stuff.
Campaigns and Governance are two totally different things.

Some times it’s galling what is required to motivate voters and bulldoze the MSM into paying attention to substantive issues instead of burbling endlessly about dress lengths, hairstyles and meaningless instapolls.

Maybe there’s a bit of trojan horse in Obama’s style as regards the wingers. Crazier things have happened. How is he to change minds among them without reaching them through that brick wall they have erected?

It’s amazingly easy to influence tv coverage just by a joke or unscheduled surprise activity. Rover’s been doing it for years.
What’s to keep Obama from “borrowing” some of rover’s effective strategies just a bit, in order to gain the office?

If he becomes President and turns into a flaming bigot and homophobe, I’ll eat my hat. I absolutely do not think he has it in him to be so despicable, no matter whom he has a dialog with.

I have faith he can change some of those minds. I suspect so because I have done it, on a much smaller scale, in our own community. I know it can be done.

P. E. A. C. E.

I agree Gloria. We are our own worst enemy sometimes and the right wingers bank on this ever 4 years. Sad, but true.

That’s a good question. I wonder if we will have a chance to e-mail questions for the debates, like we did during the primaries. I can think of some good questions for Obama.

Obama has Secret Service protection. No one is making him show up anywhere. Obama chose to accept Warren’s invitation.

Obama chose to make his first joint appearance with McSame before the right-wing hate preacher.

yes. and to reach more people?

The Statute of Limitations will run out before criminal charges can be filed.

There is also the different standards of evidence required between the Civil cases (preponderance of the evidence) and the Criminal cases (beyond a reasonable doubt).

So saying that “criminal charges are still open” is just part of the dance that allows Obamam and the other senators and congress critters who supported that execrable bill to claim they support the 4th Amendment while in reality throwing it out the window.

And it also requires an AG who actually believes that crimes were committed. Which doesn’t seem to be the case with Obama’s top legal advisers like Cass Sunstein.

Obama will make some indelicate remarks to pander to rednecks. Will Obama throw (is he for gay marriage or civil unions) equal(ish) rights for gays under the bus? Will Obama throw policy under the bus or will he simply make pandering feints at redneckism that will make us want to puke again?

Women are going to die because of it.

Yep.

He did not say he was against a health exception for the mother. He said he was against a “mental distress” exception for the mother.

yea but it’s vegan

Who is going to die because Obama is against late term abortions based on “mental distress” of the mother?

I don’t really care what any candidate believes in his heart- as long as he keeps it there. I only care what he or she DOES once in office.

So a good presidential candidate has three main qualifications:

1) Goes in with the right priorities legislatively and in terms of the executive branch.

2) Has the analytical skill to solve the problems that will surely appear the first month in office that she/he did not anticipate.

3) Has the ability to get things done- effectively-

The first two are of no value unless the candidate possesses number 3.

Most of what a president does is less about “policy” and more about “competence”…national policy is perhaps more the role of congress. Getting the right things done well is the job of the executive- and you can see what happens when you have a stinker in that department.

You’re right, that is a little different. It’s only one specific health exception. But as someone else pointed out, it’s the first chink.

Are you saying you’re OK with this?

Mothers who have depression related to their pregnancy who may commit suicide. There is simply no excuse for allowing the snake handlers to interfere with a decision that should be made between a woman and her doctor.

As president, Obama will have nothing to say about late term abortions. That’s the job of congress. He will indirectly have something to say about Roe/Wade through court appointments…

Am I okay with the fact that Obama says he is against late term abortion based on “mental distress” of the mother? Yes, I am okay with that. I’m okay with it because Obama is pro-choice, and he will appoint pro-choice judges, and whether he says he is against late term abortions based on “mental distress” of the mother means absolutely nothing to anyone’s rights. That’s why I’m okay with it. Why are you not okay with it – because you want him to say that no matter what the mother’s reasons she can abort a 9-month full term fetus just for the hell of it?

Well, he threw FISA away. He said he would lead the fight against telecom immunity and then he went along with it. So it’s not just talk.

He didn’t say mental illness. He said mental distress. Two different things in the law – he is a lawyer – this is a legal issue.

Your pragmatism is showing. Its admirable. Helps keep things in perspective.

He didn’t “throw FISA away”. He voted for an amendment that didn’t pass, and then he voted for a bill that would have passed anyway so that his opponents couldn’t make an issue out of it (except for the left who should be supporting him). You are probably responsible for Bush’s election – you’re Nadarite, right? Good work. Not.

No one would abort a 9-month fetus “just for the hell of it”! So you want to have a law restricting women’s abortion rights? You think there should be restrictions on late term abortions just because Obama says he is pro-choice? What does pro-choice mean then?

Obama can veto bills until he gets the Hyde Amendment tanked. He can choose to go after the whole thing, or choose to limit his opposition to the first two trimesters. Indirectly, he’d have as much influence on third term abortions via that route as he would through court appoinments.

Reisz was a big Hillary supporter. Probably not a Naderite. Likely voted for Gore and Kerry.

I’m glad you think no one would abort a 9 month old fetus “just for the hell of it”. In fact, lots of people in this country believe otherwise (and in fact many people might do that, just as many people abandon infants that they’ve already delivered). I don’t know if people would do that or not, and since it’s not even an issue, except rhetorically, why do you make an issue of Obama’s statement, which also isn’t an issue, except rhetorically? Because you want him to lose so that we can have real fascists again for the next four years.

well goodie. pro-active pummelling. incredibly helpful to the discourse.

pound the suckers before, during, after, and in between, just because.

thanks.

I care too. I’ll pass.

Obama chose to make his first joint appearance with McSame before the right-wing hate preacher.

I’m sure the next gathering will be in front of Planned Parenthood. /s

I was surprised at Obama’s vote on FISA- it was pure politics- and didn’t make a difference in the final vote count- but I was still surprised.

What worries me the most about him is that he has no executive experience- nada- none! He has never run anything larger than a political campaign as far as I know. McBush ran an airbase once- but won’t release his records so that we can find out if he fucked it up or not….

Incompetence is the worst sin in a president.

Being a very bright lawyer is certainly no assurance of executive ability- in fact it may be a downside-look at Nixon.

Amy Goodman had a discussion the other day about the funding of the national political conventions. The conventions are not restricted the same way as political campaigns in terms of contributions from industry. It was said that the telecoms were heavily recruited by Jello Jay (for the Ds) to fund the convention.

IMO, Barak got the message WRT the nominating vehicle, ride with the telecos or no money for the convention.

He made a political choice. I think that is the bottom line. He knew where that Denver bread was buttered.

No, he said he would lead the fight against immunity and then he flip-flopped. He may have been able to stop it– he is the titular head of the party. He totally flip-flopped on that issue.

No, I didn’t vote for Nader, but I may not vote for Obama this time. And I live in Michigan.

We could have had a progressive this time, but for some reason the Democrats wigged out and nominated a centrist.

I won’t vote for Obama if he chooses Hagel as his VP. Will you?

Is there anything at all he could do to cause you not to vote for him?

Oh, I get it. Reisz is a bitter loser.

Hey, folks – Let us remember who the opposition really is. Just saying…

I’ll probably vote for Obama if for no other reason than it appears that McBush is not mentally fit to be president. I have no illusions about him being the nations savior.

There is nothing that Obama has done that would make me not vote for him. I’ll be sorely disappointed if Hagel is the VP nominee, but I’d still vote for him over McCain. Yes, I would. Congratulations that you’re so bitter, you can’t see straight.

Right now, the opposition is us.

Exactly. And that’s why I cling to guns and religion. :-)

I had no doubt.

Most of what a president does is less about “policy” and more about “competence”…national policy is perhaps more the role of congress.

Wow. So all this time Bush/Cheney weren’t really micromanaging the Executive Branch — the one that executes policy — to skew regualtions and enforcement in favor of Big Energy, Big Pharma, Big Industrial Food, and the like? That was all coincidence?

And pushing to prohbit Medicare Part D from negotiating best pricing for meds — bringing about a policy that enriches BigPharma and blleds Medicare — that’s a coincidence, too?

And silencing NASA’s Hansen on global climate change and the CDC director on health effects of the same — when BigCarbon just happens to vehemently oppose policy fixes is a coincidence, too?

Not about policy?

Jeebus, I bet the AG firings weren’t about WH policy, either.

So glad we’ve cleared this up.

“The repubs have tried to own that issue”

Interesting perspective…yes they have but showing can be done in many other ways. Im his personal relation with “god” I expect he is sympathetic with the neocon/fundy view on gay and abortion.

If O has an ounce of sense nominations will be made in consultation with the Judiciary committee. It could be interesting

Our cup runneth over with clairvoyance.

The brethren are all in a stew.

Prolly gonna miss a barn-burner but

I think I’ll a-wait the real shew.

Name-calling so enriches the discussion.

This is a good point that I have not pondered. A good theory as to Obama’s reason to pander.

I did see all that about telco and the dem convention. Greenwald had a good article on that. Telco is thick at the convention. Then there’s the grand poohbah of the dem convention who is linked to one of McCain’s lobbyist/advisors.

Real Inside Ball/Beltway Crowd stuff.

We cannot have another administration run by Republicans. They are destroying the government, and I do not mean this metaphorically. We are aware of how they are destroying DoJ but it is across all departments.

I will vote for the Democratic nominee even though there are policy differences. This is an election that really counts.

Jane Hamsher has Book Salon upstairs!
FDL Book Salon Welcomes The Daily Show’s Rob Kutner

Seems like a bassakwards way to get legislation changed- let congress do it!

I don’t remember seeing any president vetoing every bill sent to him on any subject in order to get another bill passed…

That sounds like fantasy land to me-

Do you really think he’d DO that?

whew! /s

Compare how well the campaigns have been run.

Or Lambda Legal Foundation /s

I have, and Obama is clearly the winner in that contest (although BOTH won the nominations).

mebbe he’s forgotten how, or why, to sign his own name.

Even a centrist Obi will not stand in the way of the restoration of the constitution. He may be pandering for votes now because the high paid jerks are telling him how to win.

Once he’s there I suspect he will be a breath of fresh are down there.

THANK YOU! ;->

Yes, thank you, egregious.

6 ways to get people to pay attention to you:

l
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Hmmm. Not sure I agree with the premise here. Just because he’s willing to be hosted by a right-wing bigot doesn’t mean he won’t back gay rights. There’s a chance that Obama’s belief is that he can change more minds by meeting with Rick Warren than by shunning him.

So for the moment, I’m willing the give Obama the benefit of the doubt. That being said, I’m not terribly hopeful. His response to the California Supreme Court decision was tepid. And after the Bill Clinton/DADT fiasco, I think we’re wise to be wary.

Who political luggage will Obama carry. Make a list. Some goals cost more political capital than others.
Rooseleldt asked his supporters to push him on civil rights as it had a lot of George Wallace types against it.
It is very correct to make the criticisms of the candidate and a very healthy thing to do here. many people gave money to Obama based on his postion. Then he does not stand for the position but changes. Holding to it is important as he is being squeezes by the right who is in his camp.
And yes they blitz for money. I had to change my e-mail address. He seem like a William Jennings Bryan orator and the tune is more importnat than the content.
The convention is where issues will be decided?I am voting for the dem candidate. Why should we give him money if he is dancing with Big Brother?

Egregious, thanks for your comment. As it demonstrates, one can can have profound policy differences with a candidate while desiring to see the candidate defeat their opponent.

Warren is far and away different from the Hagees and Dobsons. In the FWIW category, the crazies are angry at Warren for hosting this thing, because a co-host is supposedly a supporter of gay rights.

What worries me the most about him is that he has no executive experience- nada- none! He has never run anything larger than a political campaign as far as I know.

I have to say it disturbs me some to see what is commonly a Republican talking point repeated by someone I regard as among the brightest of the regular commenters here. Is the “experience” really that important? Can the lack thereof not be overcome by (1) ability and (2) a strong team of advisors? (OK, I don’t think so much of his team at times … but at least they are running a good campaign.)

Incompetence is the worst sin in a president.

I must respectfully disagree with you here, sir. Incompetence is nowhere near the worst sin. True, it should be an automatic disqualification, but that didn’t stop Shrub from getting a second term. But there are far worse things than incompetence, and I believe we’ve seen quite a few of them over the past few years.

I don’t think that a successful political candidate refuses to be seen with any person who he disagrees with on any issue.

There’s nothing WRONG with disagreement..and there’s nothing wrong with coalition building on one issue when you disagree with someone on another.

The world is not black and white- and if one lines up that way–it will only lead to frustration.

Did you read the links above about Rick Warren? He’s no Rev. Hagee, Fred Phelps or another right wing hater. You’re being irrational.

The only thing that will keep me from voting for Barack Obama is if he is caught having sex with a right winger (male or female). LOL! And that’s it.

This election is as close to a war against fascism as we’ve seen in this country. We have to win it by electing a Democrat. Like any war, it requires solidarity among the “troops” to win. I like Obama – he’s not perfect and he doesn’t represent every dream of progressive thought that I have, but I am behind him, and I believe we need to stand solidly behind him. The time to take him to task on minutiae is after he is elected, during the hard work of legislation and participatory democracy – something that will finally be possible when democracy is restored.

Well there are two issues- learning the skills and working around the lack of em..

Someone can certainly LEARN the skills- but it takes a while- there is no 90 day wonder course…As far as making up for a lack of em with staff—the problems with that are VERY evident in the current administration.

It will only work if the supposed prez becomes a figurehead only and someone else (Chief of Staff) RUNS the place..

It will NOT work if the prez wants to run things but then have someone else clean up the mess afterwards-

Weak executives create chaos.

LOL BO & Ann Coulter

Barack Obama doesn’t have the experience, Rwcole? Wow! You’ve been listening to Hillary & Johnny too much.

Barack Obama will make a fine president and he will surround himself with the appropriate professionals our nation needs to get the job done. Understand that or is your hate for Barack Obama caving your brain in? Personally, if George Clooney was on the Democratic ticket this year, I’d be fine with him too.

Good gawd, don’t give me that image for my mind! Yikes. Ouch. LOL

Here’s the trouble with advisors- for every advisor, there’s an equal and opposite advisor- so when two disagree what does the newbie executive do? Call in a third to break the tie?

I have never seen a person lead a successful organization without the ability to make the key players sit down together and work through problems- this takes immense skill and the brighter the team the more difficult it is.

That’s silly. I don’t hate Obama- he seems like a great guy.

I have spent a career, though, oberving executive ability and I know first hand what happens when an executive doesn’t have it..Does Obama have it? Beats me- but there is no evidence that he does.

I’ll still vote for him- but I’m worried about that part of the package.

There isn’t a person alive who can Know all things. One of the big dangers of McCain is that he thinks he knows some things. We need someone who has the ability to listen to all and then exercise JUDGEMENT.

I’m not certain if Obama will throw gay rights under the bus in same manner he advocates throwing away the reproductive freedom of women with mental health issues.

My objection focuses on who the Dem candidate for Prez chooses to very publicly associate with and agree to answer questions for.

If Obama chose to have a Klan Grand Dragon or a Minuteman host his second campiagn meet-up with McSame (even if we stipulate Obama’s purpose were to change minds), would the simple fact of who the Man Who Be Prez chooses to appear before be problematic?

If Obama chose to have NAMBLA host his third joint appearance (even if we stipulate his purpose were to change pedophiles’ minds), would that choice be problematic?

I’d have the same concerns with those hosts as I’d have if Obama chose to appear and take questions from HIV deniers or Holocaust deniers — even if his stated purpose were to change minds. Some political views — like anti-gay and anti-choice views — are for me beyond the pale. The Rethug candidate for Prez chose to appear wher civil rights volunteers were murdered. Though he didn’t make an explicit endorsement, the association sent a dog whistle message.

Obama — as an apparent major party Prez candidate — chooses to appear before and submit to questions from a right-wing hate preacher. His choice publicly associate with a figure with such despicable, bigoted views — and the dog whistle message it sends — is what I find objectionable.

We already had an executive in chief and I personally don’t want a repeat. Is there a legal difference between mental distress and mental illness? Anyone know?

The “surround him with great advisors” formula doesn’t work unless an executive knows how to make use of them…and that’s what “executive skills” are all about

it wasn’t the vote it was …he did not come out agaist telecom immunity publically when the lege process was happening. He as a constitutional attorney could have made a fiery speech in the well of the senate. He waffled period.

So this means you’re going to vote for Johnny McTeleprompter, huh? You trust his picks more than Obama’s…is that what you’re saying?

Kirk, I understand your concerns but I still think for a democratic candidate to appear in this type of forum takes great skill. He appeared at an anti-gay church in South Carolina during the primary and his message was one of support for the gay community. I’ll withhold judgment until I hear Obama at the forum.

I said clearly above that I will vote for Obama because I don’t think that McCain is competent to be president- but I have some concerns that I have shared with you. You don’t have those concerns..that’s probably as far as the discussion can go.

yes, there is a difference. “Mental illness” is diagnosable. “Mental distress” can mean being upset.

He’s a good father, isn’t he? To me, that’s a great place to start. George Bush & Johnny McTeleprompter were not great fathers if you ask me.

Anyone who is cool and collective under pressure, has rational thoughts, and understands he or she doesn’t have all the answers and has to reach out to others to get the job done…is someone I can trust.

With George Bush it was his way or the highway. With Johnny McTeleprompter he’ll be the same way. We’re already seeing it. He’s rude, jerky, cocky, and defiant. No thanks.

Thanks for defining this Kirk. You have a gift and Gloria, Katymine and company may be able to understand why the criticism on Obama. I am hoping for more understanding. The discussion can be done objectively I agree with Mod we are are heading in the came direction but need to sort out things. How else but through discussion and support?

Thanks.

Obama hasn’t advocated throwing women’s rights under the bus. He spoke about late term abortions based on “mental distress”. Please tell us how that is throwing women under the bus and how “women will die”.

Recall Jim Comey’s testimony from his SJC hearing – he and Muller had a private session with Chimpy after the DOJ’s refusal to authorize what we are now almost certain was the TSP – they persuaded him to allow DOJ to bring the TSP under the legal constraints necessary to authorize the program.

Even the worst Executive, when confronted with the law and threats of resignation from the entire DOJ hierarchy, can make the right decision. If Obama surrounds himself with good-faith actors, he will get similar advise. So Cass is a bit alarming to me as well.

What if Barack Obama at this first campaign appearance with Johnny McTeleprompter results in him proving how stupid Warren & McTeleprompter are in their stances when it comes to gays? Will you have understanding of Obama at that point or will you just ignore it?

Your fear of Barack is the same fear the irrational PUMAS’ (Hillary supporters who are victimizing themselves against the Democratic Party) have.

Bush apparently allowed himself to get walled off from his other staff by Cheney and Addington…He probably decided early on that he wasn’t running foreign policy- Cheney was. Addington was able to make certain that no correspondance reached Bush unless Addington saw it first and that Bush heard no opposition without hearing it countered in advance by Cheney and Addington.

What happens in a sitation like that is that the REAL boss (Cheney) becomes emboldened- and because he really never suffers the consequences of his own decisions- becomes much more radical than if he were ACTUALLY president.

Completely agree, with a caveat – Chimpy is as bendable as Gumby. There have been, and hopefully will not be, Presidents who are so factually and logically-challenged as he. Obama isn’t anywhere near that low rung. I’m certain he can be persuaded, but the bar is sky-high in comparison. This is a thinker.

Irrational. There are plenty of church groups that are far more democratically aligned. Guilt by association is a tacit statement. Choices are important and birds of a feather flock together is what some will think.
Our candidate as he is likely to be needs to take the flack for his stances whether it is fron Rethugs for being progressives or from progressives for conservative. If your in the kitchen you take the heat. it is better to put on the pressure before the water is over the dam.
I have a lot of experience in a wide variety of religious settings. I am not irrational and you and Gloria sound emotional on this topic. For you loyalty above honesty to which I strongly disagree while respecting your right to expose such drivel. G)

And maybe he understands the constitution

No question- Obama is a bright guy and with analytical ability- something that Bush is not even familiar with. He’s also been around powerful people enough to avoid being in awe of them (I would guess).

What will make the difference is whether or not he has the skills to bring his team together, hash out differences as a group- and agree on priorities and approach- and then to hold the team members accountable for results.

Let’s hope he does.

Okay, vote for Johnny McTeleprompter then. We’ll know who to blame when George Bush’s 3rd term happens. ;-)

And did those church groups approach Obama and McCain? Barack will probably not walk away with supporters but it is important that democratic candidates talk about religion. This is coming from a non-religious person. We live in a nation that religion is an important part of many lives, whether or not I like it. Religion is not just a repub issue or a democratic issue.

There’s no reason for a dem to give up the entire churchgoing vote. If they did- they would lose- 100% of the time.

Let’s all go to the Omama Church and worship his royal highness G)

Whatever happened to discussion? Nobody said Obama was his royal highness and all Gloria said is that it is an important election. My right wing brother responds like you, so sorry for my ire. gee

Drivel? Wow. You’re sounding more and more like the pompous right wingers I’ve come to despise, but hey, in your little world you believe that beating up your own family will hurt the neighbor across the street who you despise. Me? I walk across the street and knock on the door. That’s the difference between you and I. To say that Barack Obama cannot talk to, stand next to, or even acknowledge someone who has less than similar views is wrong. Barack always talking about reaching out to those who are different to find a common ground. Granted, common ground will not be found with the likes of Hagee & Phelps, but this Warren guy doesn’t sound like he’s even near where those two are on the issues.

There are a whole lot of things I like about Obama. I like Edwards more and Kuccinich but do not require us to be silent about glaring shortcaomings that will hurt millions of people. You have to allow people to criticise. McSame has been hammered on the site amny times go back and look. Very few on Obama. Irrational?

And what church does Hillary Clinton go to? Let me guess, you love her church, her religion, and would be okay if she was on stage with Warren & McCain, huh? I bet.

I think she’s a baptist but often attends methodist services.

So, here we are, bashing each other over religious precepts – in the Progressive Blogosphere.
Jesus Fucking Christ…
Hillary was right, but underestimated the scope – it takes a planet.

John McCain was on THIS WEEK with George S… and came across arrogant, unintelligible and confused and we sit chatting about Rick Warren. Personally, I’m enjoying it but I do wish somebody (MSM) would talk about McCain’s recent appearances.

Hillary is Methodist and Bill is/was Baptist but what is McCain?

Oops- no- Hillary’s a member of the United Methodist Church and has been her whole adult life- (very liberal). Bush is methodist too- but perhaps not United Methodist.

The issues are important and this is still the run up to the convention. I’m far from your right wing +++++ buds. Gloria got called out by the mod for attacks and Katy just called me irrational.
So dude jus sayin which I did with a smile. I went throught the arguments when we lost some very good comments and this emerges again…the Obama loyalists versus the issues. Think about it. We all have faults and strong points. Pandering is a weak polical strategy for dodging the heat. That is what this smells like.

I have yet to see a “glaring shortcoming that will hurt millions of people” that Obama has shown. Also, in order for the country to move away from policies favoring torture, environmental degradation, institutionalized poverty, gross economic mismanagement (etc.), we have to elect the Democrat. He faces incredible odds: an effective right-wing media (Fox News, if not others), racism, potential election fraud, and a poorly informed electorate. It doesn’t help the cause of restoring a sane (if not perfect) leadership to the White House to nitpick his policies before he is elected. There is plenty of opportunity for working with him (and working hard for a progressive agenda) once he and progressive Congresspeople are actually IN OFFICE.

I really agree. We certainly need to beat McC. And if the D v.R = a false choice, so be it. The Greens and Libs at this point can only be spoilers, and we have seen that “movie” before. The Dems./Progressives have selected Obama, and he is certainly the “one who brung us” at this point. No one is perfect…but to compare to McC or otherwise throw away a vote….not so good, as I see it.

So, are you saying we should all do what Doc implied in his post that we should not trust Barack Obama at this point, because this “gaffe” is too much for our feeble minds to bear?

McCain is an Episcopalean but he’s been going to Baptist services ever since the idea of running for prez as a gooper crossed his mind.

I would be surprised if many of these people believe half of what they pretend to.

By the way…

I’M NOT KATY OR KATYMINE.

I’m KayInMaine.

I have stated before and in this thread i will vote for the Dem. You are displaying the kind of manipulative behavior that does not serve your argument. And I respect your right to do that. G)
My understanding is G) mean a friendly smile.
I get the sense that of an emerging desire to harm is in your heart.

Really scary: he perseverated on saying Obama “does not understand”, on & on, all the while still denying things that he himself has said. Even Hagel called him out on his remarks about Obama choosing to win in his campaign rather than win in Iraq. But it will not be a slam-dunk. After all, we “elected” W twice.

The circular firing squad is forming here. What I perceive to be happenning is we are not listening to each other. Some of us think that
we need to support O unequivocably at this point others of us think we
need to show loud disapproval if we PERCEIVE he (O) is moving away from our respective positions. I think we all agree that O has to be the victor. Obama stated in an early speech that he wanted to be the president for red and blue america. He is trying to do that. I think we need to give him some space but still voice our positions.

McCain fucks up nearly every time he opens his mouth- either he’s goin senile- or he (SUBCONSCIOUSLY?) doesn’t WANT to win.

Maybe HE knows that he’d make a shitty president.

Not at all. But what “we” seem to be doing is redefining politics. This isn’t child’s play – this is the big national stage, and if our guy isn’t pol enough for it, he should scram. As far as I can tell, he is more than ready to fight with the big boys, and in spite of our criticisms of who he appears with, or what he does to get/keep/Hillary supporters, or how he chooses to work the Fundy’s (which is a huge part of this strategy), we must, must, must consider the alternative… And stop kicking each others asses because we see finely split hairs from different angels.

Time Magazine The Page had the transcript online early this morning and after reading it, I decided to watch. No wonder top repubs like Powell are not jumping on his bandwagon.

You have made two statements on my behalf while equating me to your republican friends. You inferred I am voting for McSame. You really are funny. I do not know where you are comming from lady and I really an not concerned.
Anyone who disagrees with you is a lost case. G)

Barack is pandering? To who? Maybe he’s trying to find some common ground by bringing in a guy who isn’t a flaming Rev. Hagee? And how the hell are we to convince anyone that the gays aren’t “scary people” if we don’t at least talk to them or to have someone like Barack explain it?

McCain was raised Episcopal but has been waffling w/ Baptists.

waffling with Baptists can be hazardous to your health…Big ol Bavarian waffles?

It’s interesting because the Warren’s forum does not bother me and I’m not religious. Barack to appear in a forum that does not support gay rights strengthens his hand because he has been a strong proponent of equal rights. I think that it hurts McCain because he is trying to pretend he is centrist. The way he answered the gay adoption issue on THIS WEEK w G.. was a hoot.

LOL! You just made my point in one paragraph. Barack Obama brings in Rick Warren and suddenly the progressives & liberals throw up their arms and decide he’s not the one for us! The other alternative would be Johnny McTeleprompter, is that what you want?

Okay.

I hope you ALL vote for Johnny McTeleprompter because of Obama’s move to have Rick Warren at this campaign event. You’re going to look awfully stupid after November when you say, “Dammit! The Democrats lost! And I thought I was punishing those Democrats who did not get pissed off at Barack for bringing Warren in, and that’s why I voted for McCain!”.

I’ll be embarrassed for you.

Feeble minds…here ya go again with the slurs. The bloggers on this site including Kirk are not saying elect a republican…far from it. Your of base and tagged out. G) why not lighten up a little?

Once again she was stating an opinion and you might have a different opinion. Try not to get personal because that’s when it sounds right wing. IMO

Thanks for your excellent question!

From a psychitatic perspective, “mental illness” apparently refers to a group of diagnoses, while “mental distress” apparently refers to symptoms — including the symptoms of the set of diagnoses that collectively comprise “mental illness”.

Removing “mental distress” as a valid reason for third-trimester pregnancy termination effectively removes the symptoms arising from the diagnoses collectively known as “mental illness” from serving as the basis for access to this reproductive freedom.

In the US, the (admittedly flawed) DSM-IV [current incarnation DSM-IV-TR} defines the clincal diagnoses that comprise the medical conditions that comprise “mental illness”.

Axis I of the DSM-IV contains biological diagnoses including anxiety disorders (such as panic disorder or OCD), mood disorder (including major depression and bipolar disorder – aka “manic depressive disorder”), and thought disorders (including schizoaffective disorder and schizophrenia).

Pregnancy — from a medical perspective — is a biological event. Over the course of the pregnancy, the hormonal events pregnancy brings can greatly increase the frequency and severity of psychiatric symptoms in some women. The specific diagnoses I listed as examples of the “disorders” above are among those which can be greatly increased as a result of pregnancy. The mom’s subjective experience of these symptoms are part of the “mental distress” Obama threw under the bus.

All of the diagnoses I cited can sometimes cause symptoms (subjectively experienced as “mental distress”) so severe as to cause the patient to become suicidal. Some patients will attempt suicide either as a result of the symptoms or as a result of their experience of mental distress arising from the symptoms.

Despite heroic medication efforts, in some pregnant patients the symptoms do not subside as long as pregnancy continues. For these patients, witholding third-trimester pregnancy termination amy effectively serve as a death sentence for those with severe suicidal ideation and/or intent.

In patients with chronic psychiatric diagnoses (including bipolar disorder, severe major depression, and schizoaffective disorder) the combination of psych drugs required to control symptoms often includes meds very likely to cause severe birth defects. When patients on these meds become pregnant, by the time they first note an ansece of menses, teh fetal abnormaility has already happened.

For patients with chronic psych diagnoses so sever as to be disabling, their publicly-funded care may or may not cover pregnancy termination — and the nearest provider may be hundreds of miles away. These facts mean that some chronically mentally ill patients with pregnancy-induced exacerbation of psychiatic symptoms so severe as to threaten the patient’s life won’t ever meet providers who can terminate pregnancy until after the second trimester.

These patients – among the least fortunate in America – are among those Obama chose to throw under the bus.

But hey – he’s got Robert Rubin and the Hamilton Project for pals. With powerful Village friends like that, why should the former community organizer who is now the de facto leader of the Dem Party be seen to care about a bunch of suffering poor disabled people? They can’t help him now — why even pretend to be seen helping them?

Thanks. It does not bother me either. He has a large following and a large focus on social justice issues.

I have republican friends? LOL Now you’re doing the same kind of inferring that you accused me of!

Hey, I’m just trying to point out that when we attack Barack about the little things he loses supporters. If that’s what you want, keep doing it then. He got lambasted on the FISA issue and still is and has lost some support there. This must make you happy. It doesn’t me.

His FISA waffle was a pander I don’t protect terrorists. But no problem murdering a million Iraqis. No problem with taking our fourth away. Your on shaky ground.
The doc knows the abortion issues and the gay issues and saying so was good.

This statement by Dr. Kirk in the post:

“Why does Obama want bigots like anti-choice anti-gay Rev. Warren to host his campaign appearances?”

…was loaded and to anyone sitting on the fence about Obama read that line and said, “Yeah. Who the hell does he think he is! I’m voting for McCain who is not a bigot!”.

This sentence also gives the impression that Barack Obama always picks these kinds of people to be around him. I didn’t like this sentence at all, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to give up on FDL for the rest of my life! See? That would be stupid.

Your circular argumants are tranparent and mean spirited. Obama has a history of being associated with homo phobic.

Hillary voted against it, so does that mean she does protect the terrorists? Just curious on your thought on this….

The FISA bill is being battled out by the ACLU. Criminal charges are still on the table even though this bill was passed and signed into law.

Really? Provide a link supporting that claim.

I’m voting for McCain who is not a bigot!

In reality, McCain is so bigoted that he chooses to exclude his child of color from his family campaign appearances/pics.

What’s Obama’s position on ethanol? Anyone know?

Thanks Kirk for responding to the mental distress/illness question. I have a question for Big Brother, Obama gave a great speech in South Carolina in a forum that was not supportive of gays and he disagreed strongly and probably did gain votes. How is that homophobic?

Exactly my point. We can sit here and say Barack Obama is a bigot-lover now because of his choice of Rick Warren as the moderator for his first campaign appearance with McCain, when really, those who are now thinking of voting for McCain because of Barack’s choice will be voting for the true bigot/gay hater/racist. But hey! What the hell do I know. ;-)

I know! How ironic that he’s hewing to the Rovian bullshit from 2000! Dude is truly, deeply lost.

Here’s his stances on the issues:

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

For more clarity, place the cursor over the word “Issues” at the top of the page and click on one of them.

Why does Obama want bigots like anti-choice anti-gay Rev. Warren to host his campaign appearances?

because Obama isn’t anywhere close to being the progressive that many on the left think he is. For whatever reason they’ve taken to projecting onto Obama what they want him to be – very progressive, instead of listening to what he really is – center right with a pro-religious intolerance to anyone not adhering to their dogma. I can’t begin to imagine how much smacking in the face its going to take for Obamafans to realize Obama is not who they want him to be.

Really? So Hillary Clinton really is a gun toting, whiskey swilling, duck hunter like she was in her presidential campaign?

Obama is a righty? You’re saying he is for religious intolerance? Wow! That is some statement. Got a link to prove your statements?

It’s been an interesting blog and I think religion as a topic is important in our society. I’m excited that Obama is dealing with this very important issue. Do I wish another clergy member like Rev. Deb could have hosted the discussion, hell yes, but that did not seem like an option. I stand by my statement that McCain will be hurt by this forum among independents than Barack.

Oh, I agree with you. If anyone is going to be hurt by this it will be McCain. He can’t deal with much these days. I think it Barack’s choice of Warren isn’t a bad move on his part. McCain won’t be able to call him an anti-gay-hater now. See? ;-)

I’m an Atheist and I don’t care if the person I support is religious. I just don’t like the Fundies, such as, Hagee & Phelps (and other wackso) being in the picture. These people can have their religious beliefs, but I don’t like the way they think they can push their religious views on this nation. Warren isn’t as far right on the issues as Phoenix Woman pointed out above.

Nite nite. ;-)

And yet, you’ll be voting for him, eh?

When I try to explain to Firepups that the lesser of two evils is still evil, and that voters in our political system here erect a vicarious moral agent who takes decisions in their names for which they alone are responsible, I reveive extremely insulting and denigrating responses from some of the ‘regulars’, but never any real discussion.

So much for serious debate and real in-depth thinking here. I greatly admire FDL and have been reading it since its inception, but I also see that in many ways it is like a high school clique, and I am beyond disappointed with such.

Obama has a history of being associated with homo phobic.

Whoa bigbother! You just lost me. Your argument is fast losing credibility. Proof please.

Not the “worst sin” in the “hierarchy of evil.” How open-minded!

True you are, but the socialism requires the capitalism to function. So we go on a buying strike, get only the essentials, food, gas and alike. Make it “real” and you will get the attention you need, and likely some of the most outrageous rules changed to our advantage. Even the courts might change their attitude, knowing that they can be impeached if they get too radical, on either side.

Translated, our Constitution is set up to the advantage of the People, but we must exert that responsibility. FDL and it’s fellow blogs are most excellent at educating us students (which I am). But to really make an effective beginning of change, you have to think outside the usual box. FDL knows how the system should work. But right now, we need to make our wants a “requirement” for any politician and MSM. So let our fingers do the walking, away from buying, and let the rich know, we can be more effective than they can, because we are willing to do the work; they only want to tell someone else to work.

Food for thought.

And yet, you’ll be voting for him, eh?

Umm…I live in a state of 30 million people with nine separate media markets in which the Dem candidate is over 20 points up on McSame…and McSame’s three staffer campaign office has effectively punted.

That’s not what I’d consider a competitive state.

For more, google “Glenda The Good Witch” and firedoglake.

I’d write more, but I reserve the time required for comments comprised of serious debate and in-depth responses for those who evince the capacity to engage in them it’s time to play with the cats.

They’ve let me know I neglected them while indulging in friviolous exchanges and shallow discussions regarding brain cancer and cell phones.

I just don’t know how I’ve become such a social and intellectual slacker.

Must have been all that time I squandered providing psych care for terminally ill brain cancer patients.

Why? For the same reason he selected a self-loathing closet case singer for hin s”Gospel Tour”, that’s why.

Don’t You people keep up?

OBAMA IS A TROJAN HORSE!!!!

Second verse, same as the first.

Dr Murphy:

I am also a doctor, but I do not need to assert this in venues where, otherwise, I resort to informal language, as do you here. So which are you: the pompous doctor, or the informal vernacular ‘jest folks’? I have had a building suspicion that you are stuck on yourself, and you do have here many adoring fans. You appear to bask in that. OK, but do not denigrate others from your exalted self-image.

I may be *too serious* for FDL fora (your implied accusation, not my assertion), but you are the first to accuse me of being beneath seriousness or intellectual competency.

You are pretty good at the *ad hominem* attacks, too. A sure sign of the weak position.

My comments deserved serious consideration, but that is not forthcoming, apparently, in this clique. How did RedHedd and Jane end up with such commenters as many here appear to be? Whence this increasing intolerance? Is it because many are not up to the challenges of strong opposing opinions?

***As to your comments/post on the danger of EMF and RF energy, this has long been a concern of mine as a retired physicist/educator. I was pleased to see you raising these serious issues in these fora here.

As to demonstations that I am competent to engage you in debate and worth your time, how about ‘Distinguished Professor Emeritus’? How about a Post-Doctoral fellowship? Abroad, where intellectuals are known and appreciated.

I am saddened that you do not seem to wish to consider any discussions but your own. And perhaps you might consider how your façade of ‘genial host’ appears in such a context? You do not represent FDL at large, Kirk. You are but one of the main page presenters, a good one until you get to the comments and self-defensive posturing whenever anyone is not of your clique. I’ve seen your sort during my very long academic career. Familiarity has not made this bolus more amenable to swallowing. I regret having to say these things to you, but you have been very condescending to me, and without cause or warrant.

A major problem, IMO, here is that ***many assume that which is to be proven***’, an egregious loogical fallacy, and hence the discussion starts at a much later point than it ought to do.
——————————————
I am also besotted with cats, and in my experience, no cat fancier can be wholly bad or smug. So, props for your love of cats. You could learn a lot from your cats if you would get off of your egocentric high horse.

Man am I glad I left this thread when I did.

I tried an experiment this morn. I read this thread backwards. Makee no difference, either way.

Just for the heck of it, to be repetitive and all that silly stuff:

6 ways to get people to pay attention to you:

l
i
s
t
e
n

THIMK!

my #39, again, not to belabour the issue.

Would someone please provide a source for the information on this meeting. I cannot find this reference anywhere but here.

Hey wrensis — here it is. At least, crooks and liars is where I first read about it last week.

Obama chose homophobic anti-choice evangelical Rick Warren to host his first campaign appearance with McCain.

If the link in the quoted sentence from the post isn’t working “outside” FDL, please let me know and I’ll try to fix it.

Thanks for your interest.

Follow-up:

On the same day this post went up, Jim Adkisson walked into a Unitarian church with a shotgun and seventy-six shells: he opened fire. At this writing two are dead and seven injured.

This morning Dave Neiwart points out:

Now, MSNBC is reporting this morning that Adkisson targeted the church because of its liberal politics. A four-page letter police recovered, according to Knoxville police officials, referred constantly to his “stated hatred for the liberal movement.”

Right-wingers love to “joke” about mowing down, rounding up, and otherwise “wiping out” all things liberal. It’s become a standard feature of conservative-movement rhetoric. And whenever anyone calls them on it, they have a standard response: “Aw, c’mon — it’s just a joke!”

In reality, of course, rhetoric like this has historically played a critical role in some of the ugliest episodes in American history, as well as thousands of little acts of xenophobic brutality: functionally speaking, it gives violent — and frequently unstable — actors permission to act on these impulses. People like this always believe they’re standing up for what “real Americans” think — and the jokes tell them that this is so.

This was a violent attack on liberals. It was inspired by years of wingnuts talking about how much they hate liberals and wish they could do something about them. This man did. But watch the people who have been telling these “jokes” run away from any culpability for it.

(bolding mine)

The Kampala Monitor reports:

Dr [Rick] Warren said that homosexuality is not a natural way of life and thus not a human right. “We shall not tolerate this aspect at all,” Dr Warren said.

Warren was speaking in support of Ugandan Anglicans who intend to boycott the forthcoming Lambeth Conference, and this harsh rejection of tolerance for gays and lesbians may have serious consequences in a country where homosexuals face harrassment and and the threat of imprisonment.

Sure – it’s just words, right? Obama’s chosen questioner Rev. Warren just misundersttod, right?

Sure — the same way Rick Warren did here:

Akinola personifies the epochal change in the Christian church, namely that the leadership, influence, growth and center of gravity in Christianity is shifting from the northern hemisphere to the southern. New African, Asian and Latin American church leaders like Akinola, 61, are bright, biblical, courageous and willing to point out the inconsistencies, weaknesses and theological drift in Western churches.

With nearly 18 million active Anglicans in Nigeria, Akinola’s flock dwarfs the mother Church of England’s membership. And since he is chairman of the 37 million—member Council of Anglican Provinces in Africa, when he speaks, far more than just Anglicans pay attention. Akinola has the strength of a lion, useful in confronting Third World fundamentalism and First World relativism. He has been criticized for recent remarks of frustration that some felt exacerbated Muslim-Christian clashes in his country. But Christians are routinely attacked in parts of Nigeria, and his anger was no more characteristic than Nelson Mandela’s apartheid-era statement that “sooner or later this violence is going to spread to whites.” I believe he, like Mandela, is a man of peace and his leadership is a model for Christians around the world.

So who’s this Akinola, “lion” of Rev. Warren’s pantheon?

As Attaturk pointed out:

In May, The Atlantic magazine raised new and more troubling concerns about Akinola. In “God’s Country,” the writer Eliza Griswold, daughter of the Rt. Rev. Frank Griswold, former Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, describes a retributive massacre in the Nigerian town of Yelwa carried out in 2004 by a well-organized band of men, wearing clothing and tags that identified them as members of the Christian Association of Nigeria. Akinola was president of CAN during the massacre, which Human Rights Watch reports claimed the lives of approximately 700 Muslims. Dozens of others were kidnapped, raped or maimed…

When asked if those wearing name tags that read “Christian Association of Nigeria” had been sent to the Muslim part of Yelwa, the archbishop grinned. “No comment,” he said. “No Christian would pray for violence, but it would be utterly naive to sweep this issue of Islam under the carpet.” He went on, “I’m not out to combat anybody. I’m only doing what the Holy Spirit tells me to do. I’m living my faith, practicing and preaching that Jesus Christ is the one and only way to God, and they respect me for it. They know where we stand. I’ve said before: let no Muslim think they have the monopoly on violence.”

Wonder if any amount of eliminationist rhetoric — or eliminiationists’ fluffers — is too much for Obama to stomach in pursuit of Power.