Login HereI must be getting slow, because I didn't connect the dots. I assumed Lieberman was going to speak at HageeFest last night in order to protect McCain's right flank with the batshit crazy Christian Zionists, but it appears the two have a common bond:
In response to what he termed the “pretty aggressive campaign,” Lieberman said in his speech, “The bond I feel with Pastor John Hagee and each and every one of you is much stronger than that and so I am proud to stand with you here tonight.”
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“Dear friends, I can only imagine what the bloggers of today would have had to say about Moses and Miriam.”
Martyred by bloggers.
You will never fall short if you always assume this petty little man acts out of the pettiest of emotions.
Well, at least the Dems got subpoena power, right?
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Subpoena power? Is that something that’s real? I heard it was sort of like “Once upon a time” … a fairy tale. An unreality.. something mythical…
Book of Joe. Starring Joe. Hopefully he’ll have time to start working on his memoirs during the next session of Congress.
After Obama is elected and before the oath of office, I hope to see him bring Joe aside for another chat.
I think Joe has lost a wheel off his tricycle. He is sounding more nutty every day. Calling Harry Reid……
Joe is channeling Moses in reverse. Moses started out as a basket case and Joe is turning into one before our eyes.
OT but it’s important to know when the people lose more of their rights. Bush has dropped his opposition to the foreclosure legislation now that it has a provision that fingerprints can now be taken for anyone applying for a mortgage. Drip by drip the rights of the people are being stripped away. Where will it end? Will their be riots on the streets or will Americans act like good Germans as their freedoms are whittled away step by step?
Um, Lieberman is Obama’s mentor in the senate. Let us not forget that.
For some reasion, I believe it depends on what the definition of “is” is.
Joe was a petty man in a petty little town
He played his petty games with his pettiness renowned
His pettiness displayed every time he made a speech
Since Joe was a petty man in a petty little town.
Hey! Whaddya want for nothin’?
Sorry, OT, though it’s at least another Joe:
Forget the onanistic speculation untroubled by any objective facts or evidence. More troubling is the appropriation of the Republican insinuations we’re familiar with aready: The “presumptuous” Obama is “vamping about”.
Please go smack the shit out of Klein in the comments thread.
I’m not even sure what a mentor does in this case. It could be someone who shows you where the mens’ room is for all I know. Don’t think Obama and Joe will be having too many talks after all this stuff.
why do I have the great Jackie Wilson’s To Be Loved stuck in my head ?!?!?
Well, I don’t know what it means either. However, if freshmen senators choose their mentors (as opposed to having them assigned), then the relationship might reflect on Obama’s judgement.
I haven’t seen anyone “vamp” since Greta Garbo. How silly Klein is.
I dunno, the Emperor was Darth Vader’s mentor.
Remember, when Obama came on board, Holy Joe had recently been the party’s VP pick… Maybe he was attracted by the power more than the individual politics?
I remember well that Lieberman was Ds Veep a candidate. I think that is a BAD reflection on Gore’s judgement. I also remember well that Lieberman threw the Veep debate, which I think was before Obama was elected senator. It wasn’t as though the signs weren’t apparent.
A lot of people in certain kinds of parades “vamp”. Klein is echoing two specific insinuations/associations Republicans make, probably less out of malice than out of eagerness to join the lockerroom talk of real Washington men.
gotta laugh or else i’m gonna cry.
O/T: I re-watched the so-called “debate” between Glenn Greenwald and Cass Sunstein, who cited Mort Halperin an outspoken opponent of warrantless surveillance who endorsed Obama’s position on H.R. 6304. A bit of googling yielded this NYT op-ed by Halperin. It gives some insight into where Sunstein and Obama were coming from. According to Halperin:
This op-ed is dated July 8, i.e., five days after Obama dissed his supporters who disagree with him on FISA matters.
As well as a reflection of neoconservative (or “liberal hawk”, as they call themselves when they’re Democrats) power in the Democratic Party.
“subpoena power”. That’s a catchphrase that’s going to haunt some people for a long time, kind of like “keeping our powder dry”.
You betcha.
“The bond I feel with Pastor John Hagee…”
“the game is Bond. (King) James (version) Bond.”
Batshit crazy. No other way to describe him. He’s a bloody religious nutcase. In good company with Hagee.
Lieberman’s behavior is perfectly rational — politics makes strange bedfellows, after all. One can get worked up over Hagee’s misanthropic version of Christian eschatology and be disgusted by his bigotry, but I suspect most Israelis might consider Hagee at least a good a friend to Israel as Obama, as this article via TPM makes clear:
Even if Lieberman is really scraping the bottom of the barrel by appealing to Christian Zionists, he’s no dummy — nor are Israelis who want these warmongers in power.
A little note of encouragement: there is a mention of “J Street” in the Hartford Courant article.
Yeah, well, if Obama has a choice, I’d assume he’d prefer to have the support of American Jewish voters since the Israelis aren’t eligible to vote in our election.
Israel shouldn’t depend too much on Hagee and his ilk. They don’t have an army or an air force. I am really surprised that Israel would support this kind of nuttiness.
Joe’s speech in St Paul is gonna beat anything Zell Miller ever dreamed of. Duel, hell — Joe will probably smite Chris Matthews on the spot. They can have a spittle-off.
It’s my impression that Israel’s govt & policies do not reflect the voters, somewhat analagous to the case in the U.S.
So, does Joe think he’s Moses or Miriam?
Joseph, Mary, Jesus . . . Joe, Hagee, Rosemary’s Baby . . . gotta be a connection there somewhere.
And I think he will. It just goes to show you that the perceived interests of Americans and Israelis diverge.
But we’re talking about Lieberman here, and it’s not unreasonable to conclude he’s not just working for McCain, but also for Israel, when he makes such a point of speaking to Christians United for Israel.
This is a problem I have with the nature of the post and comments. People are being dismissive: Lieberman and Hagee are “nuts”.
Israel is sending high level people to these meetings. They value their support:
This is wishful thinking.
You’re easily surprised. Where’s the downside of Israel supporting them? Our scorn?
No, but a President McCain will. And they have votes, and money, to accomplish that end.
I did not say that the Israelis are nuts. I think that Hagee is a fake and is in it for the power and publicity. Joe Lieberman is strange, to say the least, and is more Israeli than American. I just don’t know why the Israelis would want to join with people like Hagee. What can he do for them?
For the record, just because folks are dismissive of hagee and short ride, does NOT mean they are not taken seriously.
Or aren’t we allowed to laugh at and mock the crazies while working to defeat them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-HfSY6LEqY here is ad from VoteVets.com on McSame’s Iraq policy.
He can help get McCain elected. The current Israeli government (along with prior ones) want us to attack Iran.
If there were a downside, I’d understand your perplexity. But there’s not. Obama’s running around saying Jerusalem should be the “undivided capital” of Israel and that “everything is on the table”. I still think/hope he’s unlikely to attack Iran and will withdraw from Iraq, but his rhetoric is nearly as extreme as everyone else’s. The touching appeals of J-Street notwithstanding, no one ever punishes the Israelis for siding with Republicans this way.
Check this one out from Don Harrold..I wish they would!!
Of course, you’re right. FDL is one of the only ones mocking them, and more importantly, trying to force the ugliness of the association betwee McCain and this group into the media spotlight.
The point I wanted to introduce to the thread was that the Israelis value Hagee and that if you look at their public opinion (see #25), not just their despicable government, they’re just at odds with notions of peace taken for granted around here.
People are mocking Hagee and Lieberman as if they weren’t valued “friends” and assets of the Israelis. Once you recognize that sickos like Hagee are Lieberman more esteemed than Obama in Israel you’re more inclined to question every premise of our “special relationship” with our “ally”.
moderator:
that should read “sickos like Hagee and Lieberman are more esteemed”. Thanks.
Oh Holy Joe identifies with those poor Fundies Moses and Miriam? Lieberman is a politician that is being boxed in the corner and now he’s scratching and hissing. Plus Jane hurt his feelings.
Excuse me, but how do the End Times fit in your scenario. Are the Israelis all into that too?
Bloggers took Joe’s precioussssss.
Joe is precious. At least he thinks so.
Um…the Israelis aren’t evangelical Christians, so they don’t really believe all that stuff. They do like the warmongering that comes with it, though.
Any sensible person would say its a dangerous alliance, wouldn’t you say. It certainly would make a lot of American Jews uneasy. Oh *smacks head*. It already has. I think you are really stretching this whole thing too far.
No, I wouldn’t say. That’s my point. Where, exactly, is the danger to Israel in supporting whack jobs like Hagee? There is none, unless you believe Hagee’s vision of the End Times a possibility.
But the Israelis obviously don’t.
Is Hagee inspiring anti-Semitism? Arguably not. Aside from making some American Jews “uneasy” (and hardly only American Jews), is he contributing to any anti-Semitic acts? Arguably not (about as many as “The Passion” was supposed to have incited…*crickets*), and definitely not in any way that immediately affects Israelis.
The only “danger” to the Israelis from an association with Hagee would come from an electoral or financial reaction to Hagee (something FDL, in its small way, works toward). There is not, however, any current counterweight to these extremists, so there’s no electoral, money or media downside to endorsing them.
You’re sort of turning things completely on their head here. How could the Israelis consider this alliance “dangerous”, when Christians United for Israel promotes the foreign policy aims of the Israelis, not only their current governement, but arguably most of the Israeli political spectrum?
Immoral, destructive, costly to the United States — these are not necessarily synonyms for “dangerous to Israel”; sometimes they’re even opposites.
(1) Anyone and anybody I’ve ever known– including myself –who has one ounce of Jewish background, is afraid of antisemitic demagoguges, and rightfully so. Hagee is antisemitic. I get pounded with emails on that subject. FDL just had a post to that effect, or maybe several.
Promoting an antisemitic demagogue–even one who HoJoe claims is Moses– is dangerous. Give too much talk time, too much platform and it’s plain dangerous. You can check what Paul Bass of the New Haven independant has to say on that one (and I believe he is orthodox.)
(2) Holy Joe is not representative of “the Jews”. I could come up with a more recent poll as well, but it’s dinnertime.
1. What he says, and, I suppose, what he thinks is anti-Semitic, but how does this translate into action? Anti-Semitic acts? He’s supporting the Israeli government! The Israelis, and Lieberman, are rationally looking at the immediate benefit of his support versus a highly speculative bad result in some distant future.
2. I never said anything of the kind, simply because I know it would be false, as I’m familiar with the same polls you are. You’re imputing an argument to me I never made.
(1) Adolf Eichmann professed a “love” for the Jewish people and went so far as to learn Yiddish, and N*zis aided immigration to Palestine. Anti-semitic speech by demagogues has a history of inflaming and turning into something genocidal.
(a) Exactly how is Hagee supporting the Israeli government? Can you list the benefits Israel is receiving from support of Hagee? Last time I heard neonazi nuts were sent to Israel to fight the Palestians. If this is true, Hagee and his ilk only further inflame the situation.
(b) Lieberman is off his rocker and desperate. He’s looking for political survival, numero uno, not at Israel’s future.
(2) I am sorry if I wrongly imputed, but I am sooo sooo sick of the “you people” sweeping type arguments I often see.
1. This is an argument I understand, and I don’t dismiss it out of hand, but the prospective danger pales compared to the immediate possible benefit of getting a president who will attack Iran (this would be perceived as a “benefit” by the Israeli government, if not by the Israeli public, a narrow majority of which, I believe, doesn’t want an attack) and continue to keep an army in Iraq.
2. Hagee can potentially help McCain get elected. McCain will presumably attack Iran and occupy Iraq for 100 years. Is it unreasonable to consider those things a “benefit” to Israeli security, even if you are opposed to them? I suspect that some of the reasons you oppose them, as with me, have nothing to do with questions of Israel’s security. Am I wrong?
3. Neither of us can look into Lieberman’s black heart. So what are your grounds for saying he is “looking for political survival, numero uno”? In fact, his extremist behavior only antagonizes his constituents and makes it harder to play both sides in the Senate. My basis for saying he’s working for Israel (I didn’t say exclusively)? Objective fact: the group is “Christians United for Israel“.
4. You bristle at criticism of Israel, jump to conclusions, and ratchet up the argument to a level that’s more emotional than I care to go. I was making a limited point: what’s crazy, repellent, extremist to most people here is rationally considered a “benefit” by the Israeli government. That should be an illustration of how vastly our two nations interests diverge, and food for thought as our next president makes the obligatory obeisances, and threats, in Israel.
4. I don’t bristle at criticism of Israel. Only when it’s extended to “Jews in general.” As a matter of fact I am generally agnostic. and I like Noam Chomsky. But most of all, I am still enraged over the bombings of Lebanonese civilians. So it wasn’t “bristling at criticism of Israel” you saw, but you read that anyway. I find that kind of telling: for some people Jew=Israel. Not that I am accusing you of that.
3. I am from CT. Spent a lot of time talking to people who knew him waay back.
2. No, more war in the region does not help Israel.
1. That’s dangerous thinking and terribly naive on anyone’s part to think an extremist nut, especially someone like Hagee, could “help” Israel
I know this, and that you worked for the Lamont campaign here, so I’m a little sheepish about having this argument in light of your efforts, for which you deserve my thanks.
That said, you are “bristling” when you address arguments about “Jews in general” that I never made. I sincerely didn’t make that argument, and don’t hold that point of view. We’re all in the same boat, all galley slaves in the hold of our pirate ship of state.