Good morning, Scarecrow!

Good morning, all. I just heard Joe Lieberman tell Harold Ford on MSNBC – You’re the kind of Democrat we need more of my friend. Talk about the kiss of death.

The Morning Joe crew, Scarborough, Barnicle & Ford all sympathizing with POOR Joe who is so badly mistreated by the mean Democrats.

I don’t know why I do this to my self every morning. I guess watching these clowns gets my blood going more than a cup of coffee.

Good morning, Scarecrow. Great post on this topic.

McCain once again demonstrating by his remarks that he would make a sub-par Commander in Chief. Any real commander in the field in Afghanistan would (when retired ;>) say as much. McCain demonstrating really sloppy thinking on this.

The morning Joe show is a set back for women. The show has Mika Brezinski (the one woman) play the ditzy woman and Joe play the masterful man. He is always condescending to her and she typically backs down from her opinions to agree with Joe, Barnicle and whatever other man is on with them. If you ever needed to be reminded that sexism is still alive just watch this show any morning. Joe Scarborough is so insuferable. You feel like you need to take a shower after listening to him and watching how he treats his side kick.

So it’s Morning Joe-Joe?

Morning.

So do you think any of the MSM morons will bother to ask either McSame or BO what “winning” would look like in a debate? This idea of being triumphal in a quagmire just makes the head spin.

I can understand now why the isolationist movements were so appealing in our past history.

so why would you or anyone else—or at least anyone else around here— want to watch it?

I loved it when Scarborough tried to pull his “mika routine” on Rachel Maddow on David Gregory’s show and found out that she wasn’t having any of he-man routine. He ended up walking off the set. It was a hoot!

MCain and Bush fought the wrong war, and fighting an unnecessary war in Iraq hurt our military, our economy and our security. We have to end that war to get our priorities straight.

nice, but not sharp enough;

“cCain and Bush fought the wrong war that they were informed was the wrong war by their own military strategists they “claim” they listen to, their aciton helped create more terrorists and terrorism and the very notion of attacking Iraq was a depraved plan from a sick and maniacle fraternity of theives known as the pnac”.

bing, watch their heads explode, watch them go balistic

Does Johnny McTeleprompter know how to explain anything? Nope. He’s a mess. LOL

Okay, going to work! Have a great day everyone. (Tonight I’m meeting up with Dan of Pruning Shears, his wife, and two kiddos who are in town for the week. Can’t wait to meet them!)

;-)

Because they have a lot of political talk on the show and a lot of guests from the political world. I find it helpful to know what your enemies are saying and what new narrative is being pushed.

Darn it. I missed that one! Was it last night or this morning?

and barak also needs to attack mccains very ability to walk and talk at the same time, mccain actually thinks Czechoslovakia is a modern day country!

It was a month or so ago. They were on Gregory’s show after that event and you could tell that ‘ole Joe doesn’t much care for Rachel. lol

what is the “mika” routine?

I found the footage. Looks like it was in April. Time flies.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..97330.html

The “mika routine” is how Scarborough treats Mika Brezinski. He condescends to her and treats her like a bubble head and she lets him (probably so she can keep her job).

Good morning all.

Juan Cole has a good critique of the Obama speech, and there are links to it at Digby and Crooks and Liars. I would have added the Cole link to the bottom of my post, but my Comcast service is misbehaving, again and won’t let me open any of those links. If the mods can add the link, at the bottom of my post, I’d appreciate it. Something along the lines of . .

“Juan Cole has some sober questions for both candidates about the value of additional US troops in Afghanistan.”

Thanks.

Yep. I think what Obama is trying to do is say, “there’s a difference between a good Commander in Chief and a good President. Even if you think you’d make a great general, it doesn’t make you a good President. The decision to fight the wrong war is the proof, even if you think you’re winning it.”

This is the same theme General Clark tried to explain two weeks ago. Obama has found a better way to say it.

Morning pups. In some ways both candidates are fighting the wrong war, though McCain’s is soooo wrong it hardly matters at this point. The problem the United States now faces, and in fact always faced but didn’t realize it, is that it cannot unilaterally impose its will on the rest of the world by force or by the threat of force. Until this truth sinks in, any attempt to negotiate our way out of our present difficulties will be undercut by Rethug claims that had we ’stayed the course’ we could have won. I don’t know how long it is going to take for the American public to be re-educated in the ways of the world. It has to start at the top, and I don’t see anyone at the top — and that includes people like Joe Wilson — who have faced up to America’s true place in the world.

This is scary.

Remember that secret directive about the continuity of government? Will anyone ever find out what it said before it might be too late?

The author was on Fresh Air yesterday and I’ll get it today on my community radio station. Will definitely be listening.

Once again I recommend Chalmers Johnson’s “The Sorrows of Empire.” It’s easier to fight the beast if one knows just what the beast is.

I believe we now enough right now to be scared out of our birds and no politician is doing a thing about it

did conyers every find out about what it says?

I remember in an interview he admitted he wasn’t aware but guaranteed he would make himself so

so what did he do with that information?

As the financial situation deteriorates I think people will start paying a little better attention to what’s going on. As long as they can still use their credit card to satisfy their impulse buying they won’t give a shit. People haven’t cut down on gas consumption because they can still borrow money to fill up the SUV.

I think the only real solution to using cars for recreation is a more elaborate public transportation system’

that is a generation away from pen to paper though

The McVeto Rationale as applied to barbara:

I birthed three babies; therefore, I am qualified to be an obstetrician.

G’morning, Scarecrow, pups.

I agree it’s scary considering the lawlessness of this administration. But after watching the Congress pass FISA and sit on their hands regarding torture I’m confident they will do nothing to find out about this.

The way the burbs were laid out makes public transport extremely difficult. I takes me an hour to go 6-7 miles by bus. One thing we could do is start more mom and pop businesses in communities. Our survival depends on the demise of the big box stores and corporations.

Actually it’s only a couple of decades….

Solar Grand Plan

Of course they will do nothing. They are up to their own eyeballs in guilt. Glenn lays it all out pretty succinctly.

Generation = 25 years.

Scarecrow, is this the Juan Cole link you referenced?

Another reason why the Dem ‘establishment’ is so opposed to Hillary and why Edwards will NOT be AG. Neither of them can be relied upon to keep the coverup going.

It will be interesting to see if Obama’s speech can make a dent in McSame’s huge lead in this area as revealed by Rasmussen. Yeah, I know, Rasmussen but I rather think this poll is in the ballpark. Remember average voters do not view either of these candidates as we do.

They don’t have all the info yet. Assuming they ever do.

Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool. No irony there.

Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.

Namaste

Read the link

Juan Cole:

The way to get out of Iraq is to get out of Iraq. (barbara: emphasis mine — bumper stickers and bullhorns, anyone?)

The major critique I have is that Obama keeps talking about intensifying the search and destroy missions being carried out by US troops in the Pushtun areas of southern Afghanistan. As we should have learned from Vietnam, search and destroy missions only alienate the local population and drive it into the arms of the insurgency.

McCain and Bush fought the wrong war,

this of course is a red herring. Obama makes the same mistake bush and mccain make in thinking inciting wars is a means to any kind of lasting successful outcome – its not, it can’t be, and it won’t be.

As we should have learned from Vietnam, search and destroy missions only alienate the local population and drive it into the arms of the insurgency.

I can personally speak to the accuracy of that statement.

I totally agree with that point, reagan put the mom and pops out of business

we have to re-initiate the anti monopoly laws, we also need these mega stores to start paying more of the expenses they use

Actually, gasoline consumption is down; I heard yesterday that we’re now consuming about a billion barrels of oil per day less than a year ago, which about a 5% drop.

It’s a measure of how far off the politics are that the main fight right now is about what we can do to lower prices so that we can go back to consuming the way we were, all the while noting that with prices so high, people are switching to more efficient cars, public transit, etc.

Ah, Dragon. Namaste.

Yes, thank you. A good fairy has now added it to the post.

there was a time when “leaving Iraq” was the actual goal, the adminstration has somehow and covertly changed their goal to “staying in Iraq”

where the benchmark for success was once leaving, now the benchmark is for success is staying

bizarre

I didn’t see this as advocacy for inciting wars. Say more, please.

Obama’s essential cluelessness about both Iraq and Afghanistan is starting to emerge. Tell me again how many meetings of the committee he chairs on same he’s held?

Remember this is the big, big deal that won him the primary but….

Turns out the GE will hinge on other things besides, ‘I voted against the war…’ or rather, ‘I would have voted against the war has I the opportunity.’ A statement increasingly suspect to the average voter as the good Senator flip-flops his way to November.

where the benchmark for success was once leaving, now the benchmark is for success is staying

Spot on!

which about a 5% drop

I work across the street from a Sunoco station/convenience store. You have to go inside first if you’re paying cash. Standing outside I can count the number of people who go inside then come out and pump gas. Perhaps 1 out of 20. Nineteen of those people are still borrowing money to buy gas. 1 out of 20. That’s 5%.

from scarecrow’s juan cole link:

The major critique I have is that Obama keeps talking about intensifying the search and destroy missions being carried out by US troops in the Pushtun areas of southern Afghanistan. As we should have learned from Vietnam, search and destroy missions only alienate the local population and drive it into the arms of the insurgency.

iraq is the war the republicans want and afghanistan / pakistan is the war the democrats want.

they’re both wrong. but at this moment, i actually think the war the democrats want is the more dangerous one. pakistan is a big country, not very politically stable and it has nukes. and it is the home of people who can and will take revenge on us here.

i want to think obama is a smart person. but this isn’t helping.

is there anyway we can push back on this before it’s too late?

I wonder where McCain learned how to win wars? During his military career, he was in a war the US lost. If being a Senator means knowing how to win wars, then Obama can make the same claim. McCain may as well claim that he knows how to cure cancer since he had skin cancer.

First thing to note, which typically no one here has done, the military actions in Iraq and Afganistan are not wars.

They are occupations.

Progressives continue to ignore the very real American preconceptions that we don’t lose wars and the very real discomfort Americans have with our occupying another country.

As long as it’s a war you will always have the 28% dead enders saying, ‘We gottta win!’

If we recast this as an occupation, which it is, that support goes away. A perfect example of how folks are not really serious about stopping this genocide.

I’m not disagreeing that people are using credit cards to buy gas, and probably more than then used to. All I said was that the total demand is down.

not necessarily. Debit cards can be used at tht pump as well. No borrowing there.

And some people actually do use plastic as a 30-day max charge device.

i use ’pay at the pump’ but i’m using a debit card. so, just because people aren’t going in to pay doesn’t mean they’re using a credit card.

Don’t know why you insist on insulting people and being factually wrong at the same time. This blog, and most who read it, routinely refer to the “occupation” of Iraq, just as I did in the post above. Perhaps you could cite examples from some “progressive” blogger/commnenter/pundit who routinely refers to the Iraq “war” without calling its present status an occupation. I really don’t know who you’re accusing of being indifferent to genocide.

Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs -

Scarecrow – I watched yesterday as McBush surrogate Kay Bailey Hutchison blame NATO for everything wrong in Aghanistan

it was so blatant the interviewing bobblehead tried to get her to say ‘mistakes were made’ – uh, nope ‘NATO’s fault across the board !’

ps – Southern Dragon and perris

left you a note downstairs about non plastic plastics :D

Has anyone ever calculated the dollar amount for the logistics of clearing out of Iraq? Seems to me that should be a major part of the calculus every time Congress votes to keep funding the occupation there.

joe wilson says we can’t even leave without fighting our way out and we are going to lose men and assets doing it

As long as it’s a war you will always have the 28% dead enders saying, ‘We gottta win!’

this is a GREAT point, we need to STOP calling it a war at all, this is BUSHES FABRICATED CONFRONTATION DESIGNED TO STEAL OUR TREASURE

make THAT case and keep making it, this man must be demonized for eternity

I think the way Obama would frame is, Iraq is the war we didn’t have to fight, but Afghanistan is the war we can’t avoid. Whether the “war” framing is sound or not is where the debate seems to be among progressives. In reading through the posts and e-mails, I’m not seeing any disagreement that the US should have, had a right to, had no choice but it . . . go after those who planned 9/11. Not much disagreement that that required some type of military intervention. There is an acknowledgement that the prior Taliban regime habored al Qaeda. So should we have overthrown that regime, which then created the obligation? to replace it with . . . what, and then assure its survival? That debate seems unresolved.

I don’t have an answer. If the initial military intervention had essentially eliminated the al Qaeda threat of future attacks, I could make an argument that further intervention in Afghanistan would be unjustified, even if we thought the Taliban regime was awful. But since it did not eliminate that threat, and the Taliban would continue to harbor them if they returned to power, then it’s possible to argue we’re stuck with both fighting al Qaeda and preventing the Taliban from returning to power.

I haven’t seen an alternative frame articulated that seems convincing. Most of the critiques are about how hard this is — I agree — and how it carries great risks of making things worse — I agree. But what’s a plausible alternative? I’m just thinking out loud (on line) and don’t have a good answer.

I’m sure our NATO friends will be thrilled to learn that the Republicans thinks our problems in Afghanistan are their fault. Not exactly the kind of message that will encourage them to contribute more or place themselves under a US command and McCain’s WAR CZAR — I guess Kaye doesn’t listen to our commanders — i.e., Mullen.

Why don’t they liiiiiiiiiikkkkkkkkkkkkkeeeeeee me Joe, between huggin’ McCain and Hagee, was also on CNN this am.

Fortunately there is the clicker and the Beeb.

So this is a mobius occupation/war? Doomed to stay there for all eternity?

I think the way Obama would frame is, Iraq is the war we didn’t have to fight,

you came up with a great line, just needs some fine tuning, check out my bold, that should say;

“should have never fought if the president had any military clue what so ever”

a little verbose but you get the idea

For sure… Mikka needs to give Joe a “swift” kick where it “hurts” to jump start his brain and end his condescending attitude towards her.

no, he just says we’re gonna pay a price to leave just as a price to stay, but we have to leave

thanx cbl2

I agree with Selise that we could cause real problems if we screw up managing our relations with Pakistan. Theoretically, Bush wants to treat it as a terrorist nation because it harbors terrorists. Our interest there is making sure the Pakistani nuclear arsenal is kept secure. Then, and only then, can we deal with the fact that bin Laden is there, or has massive support there. This requires nuance. McCain doesn’t do nuance. I’m pretty sure most Americans don’t do nuance either in foreign affairs, especially when it comes to terrorists.

There is plenty of evidence that Obama does nuance, and from this speech, it appears to me he sees these issues. I’m inclined to agree with Scarecrow @ 61, and hope for the best.

Nice post Scarecrow, thanks.

I’m also struck by how Obama ties the cost of the Iraq war occupation to the drag on the U.S. economy. Krusty, on the other hand, talks about the savings from victory in Iraq making the deficit magically disappear.

Huh?

Exactly – relative to the population of the country and the size of our military, Canadians have lost a lot of soldiers in Afghanistan. Talk like that is not going to do much for Canadian willingness to continue there.

This brings me back to my earlier question. Who has calculated exactly what withdrawal would look like (logistics, all of them), exactly how long it would take (plus or minus the aforementioned fighting our way out), and how much that would cost. Because every single time George’s request for a handout circles around, Congress needs to weigh that against the cost (literal and figurative) of getting the hell out of there. Clearly human cost is not gonna swing the balance. So let’s speak the language of Republicans, i.e., bottom line and return on investment.

not quite. I suspect there are a few of those people who are paying on a debit card like I do. What that number might be, I don’t know, but I would hope there would be at least 1/3 of them.

This brings me back to my earlier question. Who has calculated exactly what withdrawal would look like

A GREAT FRIGGING POINT!

I think the ONLY person who I have read to some kind of calculation was joe wilson

The Republics blame the Europeans because they have yet to figure out how to blame the Democrats. The only constant is that the Republics never accept any responsibility for anything. They are truly the Party of Bush.

Christy’s new post should be up. I’d provide the link but my COMCAST SERVICE SUCKS again.

Must leave to do doctoring stuff. Please fix America while I’m gone!!

Obama’s essential cluelessness about both Iraq and Afghanistan is starting to emerge. Tell me again how many meetings of the committee he chairs on same he’s held?

Obama doesn’t chair a committee on Iraq and Afghanistan. He chairs a subcommittee on European Affairs, which has a tenuous relationship only to Afghanistan through the general NATO connection. The “chairs a committee on the wars” is a right-wing canard which you would do well not to repeat.

(((barbara and david))) your new doc ? hope all goes well

verizon isn’t any better.

How’s that for competition ruling in the market place?

Here you go…fresh posty goodness.

hi selise. sorry i missed your post at ackermann’s yesterday. I have a severe case of CRS, and was thinking you were in AZ. thus the offer to stay or visit on your way to the DenCo convention. and NOOOOO, SW CO is NOT on the way from MA.
bummer tho. I’d have loved to have you visit.
:)

would love to meet you too!

don’t know if i’m going to be able to go to denver – there are several non trivial impediments – but i’m hoping and i’m working on it.

well, if you have ever in the NE – please let me know!

I’m not seeing any disagreement that the US should have, had a right to, had no choice but it . . . go after those who planned 9/11.

of course not. but that doesn’t mean bombing from 30,000 feet. and it doesn’t mean using depleted uranium and it doesn’t mean installing a puppet gov with warloads that make the taliban look good and on and on.

why is it that progressives can see that the pony war was never on offer wrt iraq but can’t see it wrt afghanistan.

we have to look at not the war (or occupation) that some of us might wish for – but the one we are likely to get.

There is an acknowledgement that the prior Taliban regime habored al Qaeda. So should we have overthrown that regime,

uh, what happened to our commitment to diplomacy and negotiation? the taliban offered to turn OBL to a third party (for a fair trial) if we would provide evidence to support his extradition.

now, they may never have followed through on that – but we will never know because we refused to negotiate.

Most of the critiques are about how hard this is — I agree — and how it carries great risks of making things worse — I agree. But what’s a plausible alternative?

i propose that we all read robert pape’s research (Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism). the guy’s politics are so far to the right of me i can’t even see them over the horizon. but i’m still rather attached to the idea of being members of the reality based community – and if we want to develop a reasonable strategy for AQ and OBL, it would be a good idea imo to be aware of the data that is available (regardless if you buy pape’s conclusions or not).

what i see happening is progressives buying into a different set of narratives about terrorism and national security – but just because they are different from the insane ones advocated for by the neocons doesn’t make ours reality based. and listening to obama yesterday, i don’t think much of his. let’s start afresh.

I think McDraft is still fighting Vietnam, nobody told him it ended over 30 years ago!

Most all of the Republicans are still fighting Vietnam and trying to prove that it was DFHs and the “Media” that “lost” the war.

Obama IS advocating war – just a different war than mccain. He would pull troops from Iraq to send them to Afghanistan and from there conduct raids in Pakistan.

If Obama’s position was that war in the middle east is the wrong policy, he would say the war in Iraq is wrong, but he didn’t, he said it is the “wrong” war, implying that there is a “right” war, which he has said before.

So either way, mccain or Obama, it will be endless war in the area. The two only disagree on where the most troops should be.

Thanks, Scarecrow, for the link to the Juan Cole article. It should be required reading, particularly for those tempted to jump on Obama’s “let’s just send those troops to Afghanistan” bandwagon.

Perhaps some folks can’t remember what happened to Russia when it tried to deal with Afghanistan. If there’s someone out there over 100+, he/she might recall Britain’s similar fate.

If we should have learned ANYTHING from the Iraq fiasco, it should be that we can’t just go busting into a country without a thought to understanding its history, culture, etc.

Juan Cole has provided this lifeline. I hope Obama takes it.