Hi everyone. Thanks Marcy.

Welcome Senator Levin.

You note Haynes’ remarkable appearance before your committee.

I wonder what you think about the fact that he is being represented by Dick Cheney’s long-time personal lawyer, Terry O’Donnell? To what degree is O’Donnell protecting Cheney, as much as Haynes?

Senator Levin – Thank you so much for being here today. When you look back over the events since 911 and before, what do you think congress, and specifically the Ds, could have done differently to prevent us from becoming a nation that has apparently institutionalized a policy of using torture?

Thank you for coming, Senator Levin. Welcome to Firedoglake, and thank you for the work you are doing on this important issue.

Good morning and welcome, Senator Levin.

Think war crimes, sir! For all our sakes, let the trials begin.

Welcome to Firedoglake. What do the think the next administration should do to repair our status around the world and are you favorable to bringing impeachment hearings to floor as a result of your investigation into the abuses that have occurred under President Bush’s watch?

We know that Jim Haynes is close to David Addington, the Vice President’s Chief of Staff and former counsel as well, but I would not want to draw any conclusions about a lawyers representation of a particular client.

One more question, while we’re waiting for people to move threads. Have you read the accounts from Jane Mayer’s new book?

I’m wondering if you knew of the ICRC report–and its conclusions? Also, Mayer reports that Cheney was pressuring CIA IG Helgerson about his 2004 IG report.

To the extent that you can say, were you aware of these two details, either through your investigation or through your work on SSCI?

Senator,

The thing that disturbs me the most about this issue has been the ineffective response of all our governmental and social institutions to this issue. The Senate has a special responsibility to see that we live up to our treaty obligations. It’s been clear since January 2002 that the Administration wasn’t living up to our Geneva Convention obligations, but the Senate has been largely silent during the past 6 years. I appreciate your efforts to highlight this terrible stain on our national reputation. Do you think the Senate needs to change the way it addresses issues like this to prevent this from happening in the future?

Fair enough. And I guess it makes sense that a former DOD GC would understand how to represent another former DOD GC.

Welcome Senator Levin – it’s great to have you visit with us.

Like so many, I remain astonished that we can be debating the use of torture rather than enforcing its absolute abolition in this day and time. Are there ways citizens can help support your work on this issue?

Could anything have been done differently? Lots. For one thing, the Republican Congress was protecting the Republican administration and did not engage in oversight that was so essential to force the administration to follow law. The legislative check and balance was MIA.

Thank you for being here, Sen. Levin. It seems clear to me that the Administration has a policy of not recalling key facts in order to forestall any oversight on pretty much any issue of import. Beyond the troubling implications of this for oversight and accountability and the disrespect for balance of powers considerations, as a lawyer I have to say that I find this pattern of behavior by legal personnel particularly offensive given that the testimony is under oath.

With all of the fact-finding that has been done through whistleblower information, journalistic investigations and such, what groundwork is being laid for potential criminal or more thorough investigations and potential charges at some point? Could you discuss what you think the odds would be of an Obama Administration pursuing these matters more thoroughly — and also a McCain Administration?

Senator Levin, thank you for coming today and agreeing to answer our questions. I especially appreciate that in the introductory piece above you refer to detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Afghanistan and Iraq. Most people prefer to paint the abuse as having only happened at Guantanamo and at Abu Ghraib. How many of the approximately 30,000 detainees under US control in Iraq and Afghanistan do you think have been subject to the abusive techniques you describe?

Senator,

Congress makes the laws correct? Congressional action outlawed torture decades ago via international law. How can the OLC usurp clear congressional intent, and get away with it? Meanwhile the executive condones torture arguing protection of “zee” homeland? Criminals???

Sen. Levin,
Your timeline for SERE interjection into U.S. torture training goes to July 2002. But Lt. Col. Baumgarten’s own statement indicates that he was approached by Shiffren (or others?) in December 2001. This is verified, supposedly, by documents your committee staffers showed him.

Why are these documents not released? Why isn’t this Dec. 2001 part of the timeline emphasized? Would not this early of an approach to use SERE for reverse-engineering purposes put some in the Administration in greater legal jeopardy, as the OLC rulings on detainees did not come until early 2002?

Welcome Senator Levin. Can you tell us how you all congress critters are going to balance the balance of powers? It seems as if there is a reluctance to do that not just among the repub section but also amongst the dems.

Can you also tell us what you thought about the Red Cross calling a spade a spade and talking about war crimes? How is it that we have to wait for an international tribunal to clean our own house?

Thanks

I am curious if Senator Levin is aware of the article by Spencer Ackerman in which he relates how military interrogators from WWII were aghast at the techniques being used in Bush’s war on terror. Not only did they find them to be ineffective but destructive of the humanity of the interrogators themselves.

http://www.truthout.org/articl…..on-tactics

Jim Haynes’s responses to the Committee’s questions at the hearing were deeply troubling.

They certainly were; it was really quite appalling to see the dreadful memory – and repeated failures to recall key details – of a man charged with tremendous responsibility.

One of my key recollections is that you and your committee staff must have done a tremendous amount of work to prepare for the hearing. I appreciate and respect the professional attention to detail and the judicious preparation for the hearing.

Thank you to the committee staff, your own staff, and to you.

I’d like to ’second’ this question, because it really cuts to the heart of many interrelated factors.

I believe that an Obama administration especially can reach out to countries around the world and dramatically change the impression of America by ending the unilateralist policies, and the cocky, arrogant rhetoric of the Bush administration. For instance when Senator McCain proposed that we kick Russia out of the G8 he makes it harder for Russia to join us in putting the kind of pressure on Iran which is essential to resolving the threat of an Iranian nuclear program. That kind of comment represents a continuation of the Bush unilateral approach which comes across as domineering and bullying. I don’t support impeachment proceedings against President Bush.

The damage this caused to our moral standing and our national security is incalculable

Good morning Senator.

It does seem to me that we have to get most of our information regarding the war crimes committed by the bush cheney regime from overseas sources and it further seems that the Congress only reacts to information when forced to do so by organizations such as MoveOn, ACLU and blogs such as FDL.

I cannot believe that either 1/ Congress is so naive that the evidence of war crimes has passed them by or 2/Congressional leaders are corrupt and complicit in these war crimes. Why, with all the evidence from multiple sources, has the Congress refused to take this administration to task and take the constitutionally required step of impeachment.

The somewhat astonishing aspect of all this is that the condoning of torture opens the door for that to rebound on Americans in horrible ways. One of the traditional reasons the US has stood firm against torture is that condoning any kind of abuse provides a pretext for our enemies to do the same, or worse, to American prisoners held abroad. There was very nearly an international uproar in WWII when some Japanese nationals being held prisoner in Montana were slapped and yelled at, for this very reason. How far we have fallen since then — thanks to the Bush administration and Republican rule.

Senator Levin,

Thank you being here and being willing to answer questions.

My question is: What, in your view, can an individual do to help stop torture as the policy and practice of the United States, and what can an individual do to help to bring justice to those who made torture the policy and practice of the United States.

For Dan,
Heather

Good morning, Senator Levin. Thank you so much for visiting with us today.

Scott Horton at Harpers magazine asked Jane Mayer, the author of the new book, The Dark Side, six questions. While answering one of those questions Ms. Mayer said this:

“Activists will be angry at me for saying this, but as someone who has covered politics in Washington, D.C., for two decades, I would be surprised if there is the political appetite for going after public servants who convinced themselves that they were acting in the best interests of the country, and had legal authority to do so. An additional complicating factor is that key members of Congress sanctioned this program, so many of those who might ordinarily be counted on to lead the charge are themselves compromised.”

I don’t think our nation can recover from this stain on our national honor unless those who were responsible for doing the unthinkable are held accountable. So my question to you is:

Do you think there will be accountablity, for what General Taguba called war crimes committed by this administration, or do you think like Ms. Mayer that there is no political appetite to hold these people accountable?

Urge Senators Obama and McCain to commit themselves to apply the interrogation standards in the Army Field Manual to all U.S. employees and contractors, including the CIA. And also of course vote in November.

If we are talking about an Administration that at its highest levels promoted torture, why have the President, Vice President, and other high Administration officials not been impeached?

“Why, with all the evidence from multiple sources, has the Congress refused to take this administration to task and take the constitutionally required step of impeachment.”

Yes this seem a very appropriate action. Why is congress so limp?

Thank you, Senator Levin, for being here. I am a former Michigan resident.

Many of us here do strongly support impeachment proceedings against Bush and Cheney as the only way the American people will find out the breadth and depth of this mal-administration. I am curious about why you don’t support impeachment?

With all due respect, Senator, it wasn’t just Republicans who were MIA with regard to oversight. That’s why I’m interested to know what you think we could have done differently.

For example, do you think that our policy (as reported by Jane Mayer in 2005) of extraordinary rendition that began during the Clinton administration (where people were kidnapped and taken to egypt to be tortured and/or killed) contributed to a culture that was too ready to accept torture as a tool of our foreign policy?

For my part, I think statements like this one (from June 8, 2004 SJC hearing with AG Ashcroft) were horribly damaging:

SCHUMER: Mr. Chairman, thank you.

And, Mr. Attorney General, I know this hasn’t been an easy day for you. And we respect your being here. But in all due respect, I have to say sometimes you’re your own worst enemy.

And I’d like to interject a note of balance here. There are times when we all get in high dudgeon. We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never, ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake.

Take the hypothetical: If we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city and we believed that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off, my guess is most Americans and most senators, maybe all, would say, “Do what you have to do.”

SCHUMER: So it’s easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used. But when you’re in the foxhole, it’s a very different deal.

And I respect — I think we all respect the fact that the president’s in the foxhole every day.

Now, of course you are not responsible for what other Democrats say – but doesn’t it make it harder to provide any kind of oversight when so many of our own party seem to approve of the Bush administration’s policies?

What can the Senate possibly do to force the administration to follow the law? We see the administration disdaining and ignoring subpoenas time and again. We know that Democratic leadership did not protest when these questionable practices were briefed to them. Nancy Pelosi took impeachment off the table. Concerned citizens are reduced to sustaining themselves with the crumbs of hope offered by a few who talk nobly but can’t seem to get beyond intellectual jousting.

I second Valtin’s question @ 16

Thank you,
For Dan,
Heather

I would also like your opinion on how George Bush is different from Omar al Bashir and how what has been going on in Darfur is different from what is going on in Iraq? And if al Bashir can be referred for prosecution for his crimes, why can Bush who promotes torture not be?

Sen. Levin,

The new Army Field Manual, in its Appendix M, allows for isolation, sleep deprivation, and certain types of perceptual isolation, all of which are forms of abusive or coercive treatment not allowed by Geneva, and other laws and treaties. Will you or Congress work to rescind Appendix M as it applies to the AFM.

excellent, important question.

Urge Senators Obama and McCain to commit themselves to apply the interrogation standards in the Army Field Manual to all U.S. employees and contractors, including the CIA. And also of course vote in November.

With all due respect Senator you and your colleagues are our elected representatives and it is up to you to stop this madness from the White House not for some future president to maybe fix the problem. The problem is NOW, it is happening, at this moment, in american run prison camps, in multiple countries. Putting off the problem to someone else is not exactly leadership, it is rather political expedience and not good enough.

“I don’t support impeachment proceedings against President Bush.”

With great respect Sir, what else does this President have to do, to have impeachment hearings put on the table ? Is Congress not allowed to even examine whether the President has broken laws ?

Which raises another good point.

Senator Levin, what can we do to improve intelligence oversight? Just before this chat started, Trent Franks proposed calling Speaker Pelosi and Jane Harman before HJC to testify about how they reacted in briefings on interrogation methods. There’s also the example of FISA.

What can we do to enable Administrations to present information to Congress in classified fashion–but make it possible for those Members of Congress on oversight positions to do something if they find the Administration policies are illegal?

If you’re drowning because you’ve got a 100-pound stone around your neck, does it make sense to say “I’m swimming for shore as hard as I can, but I do not support removing this 100-pound stone from my neck” ?????

Lt. Col. Baumgartner did so testify at our hearing. However information relating to his discussions with Shiffrin remains classified. When our report is finalized we will press the DoD to declassify this matter.

I don’t support impeachment proceedings against President Bush.

Then you should vote that way if and when the issue comes to the Senate floor. Now you are required by the constitution to take action

Senator Levin, it seems to me that Congress might as well have gone home for the last 7 years because the Bush/Cheney administration have simply ignored everything that was done and did exactly what they wanted to. Why has this been allowed? Can’t Congress take a stand and tell the Executive that they are an equal branch of Gov’t?

Gentlemanly, in the abstract. Wishfully naive for an experienced public official who knows this administration’s top players.

In response to 26:
We strongly urged Senator Obama to stand against the new FISA bill. You know where that got us.

an honor to chat with you senator!

here’s what bothers me;

the president unilaterally ‘redefined” the very meaning of torture to be “anything I do is not torture”

then he has the NERVE to “claim” “we don’t torture”

and the man gets away without being accused by the democrats of a war criminal

the people that endorsed these practices are war criminal and the discussion needs to be framed just like that, he nor ANYONE can “redefine” what is and is not torture, he does NOT get to unilaterally disregard treaties this country and former presidents entered, THAT IS A SECURITY RISK

one of the GREATEST tools we have for peace is the ability to broker treaties and this president THROWS that ability down the drain and NOBODY MENTIONS IT

we get LESS information when we have policies that include torture, NOT more, we get FEWER people volunteering information and we PROMOTE THE ENEMIES AGAINST THIS COUNTRY

we turn moderates into extremists, extremists into heroes

we turn every relative of a person who was tortured into a terrorist, we turn every family member into a terrorist

the people that endorse policies of torture are war criminals and that’s the way this discussion needs to be framed

Thank you for your response, Sen. Levin. I suspected this was the case. Can you comment on the significance of a timeline that begins in December 2001 instead of July 2002, as that would help educate the public as to why such documents should be declassified. DoD could certainly do their usual redactions for security purposes. Or is it not just DoD we are talking about here?

Senator, I am constantly amazed that there has been no accountability by this Congress of this Administration. We handed you the Congress and you have failed to do your duty to hold them accountable for anything.

The sentiment here in the “netroots” is that you in Congress care more about keeping your personal power and perquisites than doing the Peoples business such as investigating and exposing the wrongdoing of this administration.

How sir, can you answer that? One or two hearings here and there will do naught but allow them to slide out of office next January with nothing, absolutely nothing but a foul stench left behind.

Are the members of Congress so afraid of losing an election, or their seats that they refuse to stand up to these criminals? Sam Ervin rolls in his grave, sir. The crimes of Nixon were but misdemeanors compared to this group, and nothing is done but “stern letters” and press conferences.

This unwillingness to impeach, when President Clinton was impeached for illicit sex, baffles me. I simply don’t understand, and I haven’t heard any rational argument yet about why impeachment is “off the table.” This leaves us to suspect the worst about our congressional leaders — that they are covering up complicity.

Senator,

History will show this administration “used” 911 just as Nazi Germany use the “Gliewitz Incident” to justify a preemptive invasion of Poland and the start of WWII This is the genesis for all this wrongdoing that has taken placed predicated on fabrications and lies, concerning Iraq. Maybe an impeachment proceeding would uncover the scope of metathesis exacted by BushCO as the War Trial at Nuremberg uncovered the roll of the SS in the fabricated “Gliewitz Incident?” It all comes together Sir!! Torture is illegal aznd this administration is being given a pass! Why??

Many here are concerned that it is a Democratic House and Senate that are protecting the excesses of an errant Republican administration.

What can citizens look forward to when those Democrats who led the FISA/Fourth Amendment amendments legislation hold more power in the next Congress?

Senator Levin, if you do not support impeachment, can you tell us under what circumstances, outside of blowjobs, you and other members of the House and Senate might consider impeachment. Just how criminal and crazy does a President have to be before you are at least willing to discuss the subject? And yes, we know the roles of the House and Senate in the process.

emptywheel:
Glennzilla talks about this today in his post. He thinks we’ll never get to the bottom of this for reasons you can imagine.

Also, Sen. Levin, why wait until your report is “finalized” to press for declassification? That could be many months from now. Why not ask for declassification… now?

Greetings from sunny Michigan, Senator Levin.

What concerns me about the mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo and elsewhere is the Bush administration’s insistence on final and unreviewable authority to classify people as “terrorists” and how to deal with them. Worse yet, four justices of the Supreme Court were willing to give Mr. Bush that authority.

See my post at #52

For one thing, the Republican Congress was protecting the Republican administration and did not engage in oversight that was so essential to force the administration to follow law.

the democrats NOW protect this administration and it is BIZARRE, how on EARTH does this man get the funding for the war unchecked, how on EARTH does he get to give our military investments to his pals in blackwater?

HOW ON EARTH DO THE DEMOCRATS GIVE HIM TELECOM IMMUNITY?

how on EARTH do the DEMOCRATS give HIM OUR FOURTH AMENDMENT?

WHY ARE THE DEMOCRATS PROTECTING THIS ADMINISTRATION?

Well and good, Sen. Levin. And the Senate will hold the victor to his word with competent and timely oversight hearings?

Senator Levin, thank you for joining us today. As you can see, there appears to be an extreme disconnect between what folks inside the Beltway see as “accountability” and “oversight” versus what most of the country sees.

Many of us see that crimes have been committed in our names and are horrified by it yet all we see from Washington insiders is excuses why something can’t be done or was not done.

How do we gain true accountability for all the crimes that have been committed and assure that the perpetrators are not allowed to return to office sometime around 2020/2024 after the next group learns how to re-package their gibberish?

Congress has three powers that can be used: they can pass a law, even in classified form as a classified annex to an unclassified bill (such as the intelligence authorization bill), second, the power of the purse which can be carried out in a classified or unclassified manner, and third there is of course our oversight power and responsibility.

Senator Levin, I appreciate the respect you show us by being willing to come to a place where you can hear from regular people.

Do you think your colleagues understand that many Americans feel as if we have been turned into torturers when our representatives won’t hold accountable the people who have been torturing human beings in our name?

Does it even cross your fellow Senators’ minds that we are deeply ashamed of our congress for not being willing to do the job of redeeming our honor?

Ahem the slence from the Senator is deafening since the discussion turned to accountability by the Dems. Coincidence or a wonky server?

Selling out the constitution for what and who??

Senator, the founding fathers took great care to inject genuine checks and balances into our form of government. Those balances seemed to have worked well for over 200 years. Since January, 2000, not so much. The evidence for criminal wrong-doing, aggressive war, propagandizing and torture are absolutely overwhelming. Especially in light of the torture evidence your hearings have covered, how in good faith can you continue not to refer these matters immediately to the House Judiciary Committee for impeachment hearings to begin now? Our government now consists of a the unitary executive. You, in the Congress, we, the citizens, and the judiciary now are reduced to the role of mere observers as those in power “create the new reality”.

Please provide some leadership for us out of this morass. I truly fear for the future of our republic.

I have a question for Senator Levin: Do you have many colleagues (you know the ones you Senator types refer to as “my good friend, the honorable so and so”) who sincerely think our torture program is a good idea?

We have many pending requests for declassification, and we’re not waiting for our report to be finalized to ask for declassification of numerous documents. The Yoo memo is an example of where we put maximum pressure on for declassification. There is only one minute left in the roll call, so I have to run. Thanks for joining me today.

oil and corporations????

Eighth grade civics, Sen., to recite that Congress has three powers. It would be helpful to hear what you hope Congress will do with its three powers to protect the rights of its citizens, including those bureaucrats who have put professionalism above toadyism in daring to expose illegal or highly questionable administration conduct.

Thank you for coming, Senator Levin, much appreciated.

Thank you Senator Levin.

I don’t know that there is a greater issue that has faced America within my lifetime (60 years).

As an aside I served in the AF from ‘67 to ‘71.

One of the justifications that this administration has used for the invasion of Iraq was the way that Saddam Hussein treated his own people. At this point, how is what we are doing when it comes to torture, any better.

While the administration has admitted admitted to three incidents, through the administration’s use of extraordinary rendition, it is quite likely that more torture took place than that.

Additionally, those who justify torture typically will cite a “ticking time bomb” scenario as justification. The administration has not attempted that, but has simply said that attacks were prevented. Given this administration’s lack of candor throughout their term, these statements must be viewed with a jaundiced eye.

The Nuremberg defense that AG Mukasey has cited is of questionable legal standing.

Not only those who committed these acts must be brought to justice, but more importantly those who authorized these techniques. Anything short of that is a disgrace to America and everything that America stands for.

The rest of the world looks to America as an example of the way things should be done. They are looking to see if our words are simply meaningless rhetoric, or if we really are one of the greatest nations in the world.

Thank you for coming to firedoglake, Sen. Levin. And thank you for responding.

I want to point out to the senator that we have been warned this president intends to invent cause to attack Iran, the cia warned us among others

I want would LOVE if the senator would PLEASE READ THIS LINK

cheney HAS A RECORD of manufacturing “data” to undermine peace;

“Last Friday, in Moscow, we witnessed the beginning of the end of that era which began in 1945. With this step, we have enhanced the security of both nations. We have begun to reduce the level of fear, by reducing the causes of fear—for our two peoples, and for all peoples in the world.”
But Nixon left amid scandal and Ford came in, and Ford’s Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) and Chief of Staff (Dick Cheney) believed it was intolerable that Americans might no longer be bound by fear. Without fear, how could Americans be manipulated? And how could billions of dollars taken as taxes from average working people be transferred to the companies that Rumsfeld and Cheney – and their cronies – would soon work for and/or run?

Rumsfeld and Cheney began a concerted effort – first secretly and then openly – to undermine Nixon’s treaty for peace and to rebuild the state of fear.

They did it by claiming that the Soviets had a new secret weapon of mass destruction that the president didn’t know about, that the CIA didn’t know about, that nobody knew about but them. It was a nuclear submarine technology that was undetectable by current American technology. And, they said, because of this and related-undetectable-technology weapons, the US must redirect billions of dollars away from domestic programs and instead give the money to defense contractors for whom these two men would one day work or have businesses relationships with.

The CIA strongly disagreed, calling Rumsfeld’s position a “complete fiction”

he creates his fake “cia team b” and makes believe he has data the professionals deny

he did it with nixon to undermine detante, he did it in Iraq when they KNEW Iraq posed NO threat

AND THEY ARE DOING IT AGAIN IN IRAN

and I am SURE you know the president has ‘the authority” to suspend the constitution AT HIS OWN WILL and IF we allow an attack on Iraq do NOT be surprised if martial law is declared

do not be surprised

Welcome Senator. This Michigan resident extends a warm thank you for chatting with us today.

Accountability… not so much.

Sure buddy have a good day!

Good Morning Senator and thank you.

The natives are restless. WHile were not quite ready for pitchforks and firebrands its getting close. The entire business of unlawful imprisonment and torture has sullied America’s reputation around the world. It appears from us regular folks the congress is incapable or unwilling to do anything about it.

Why is that do you think?

Why don’t I feel better?

The approval rating of the Congress is in the single digits. Have any of you in Congress put this together with your refusal to hold this Administration to account?

Senator, thanks for taking the time to listen to ordinary citizens today. You mention the third function of Congress: oversight. And it is this function that has atrophied almost to the point of extinction in the past decade.

And honestly, the problem so many of us have is that Democrats have been slow to shake off that rust and make it robust again.

FWIW, Frank Church was my friend and mentor. And I have little doubt that he is turning in his grave over the impotence of Democratic oversight of the past couple of years.

Senator Levin, thank you for being here today. As you can see, many of us are deeply, deeply disturbed by the actions (or inaction, as the case may be) of our government. I understand that the Senate has a long tradition of collegiality and certain conventions regarding rules and behaviors.

My question, however, is when will those conventions give way to political and legal action against those who have perpetrated war crimes in our names?

I appreciate the press of Congressional business on one of its most senior Senators. Your staff, perhaps, will note the questions that remained unanswered here and respond to them. You have been as forthcoming as Sen. Lieberman at a peace rally.

Thank You Emptywheel !

and Thank You Firedoglake

Senator Levin,

This morning I heard Joe Scarborough and Mike Barnicle on MSNBC basically tell their viewers that what the Bush administration did will be vindicated by history. They even went so far as to say that there are many who will be categorized as heroes. They felt free to lie like this because so far no one will hold the Bush adminstration accountable.

Later this morning I heard Rep. Darrel Issa and Rep. Franks try to diminish what the adminstration did and Rep. Issa brought up that Nancy Pelosi and Jane Harman approved everything the Bush adminstration did. If the Congress doesn’t hold this administration accountable this country will not heal. Please don’t allow these people to rewrite history. We must have accountablility and soon.

Thank you, Senator Levin, for coming here and braving our frustration!

Senator Levin – I hope you will be willing to take a question on a different topic: the question of skyrocketing oil prices.

Do you think that a speculation fed bubble is currently affecting oil prices? I was impressed by the analysis posted on your website, “Statement of Senator Carl Levin on Oil and Gasoline Prices: 05/12/08,” that Marcy pointed out to me. Looking further, I found an excellent report from 2006, “The Role of Market Speculation in Rising Oil and Gas Prices: A Need to Put a Cop on the Beat,” also on your website.

But when I went looking for legislation to address this matter, I didn’t find much – a 2006 bill that was allowed to die in committee, the recent “Consumer-First Energy Act” which did not survive a cloture vote (but didn’t seem like a very good bill anyway). When I called your office recently to inquire what action was being planned, I was told that nothing further was being planned until after November, but that you had closed the Enron loophole via an amendment to the Farm Bill. However, it appears that your amendment does no such thing for the crude oil market.

Because you are a Senator from Michigan, I thought issue would be of special interest to you and the economy of your state. Can you tell us if there is effect legislation in the works to re-regulated energy markets (if you think that is necessary)?

Um.. when Joe LIEberman quits being the National Scold, when Barry the Privacy Slayer grows a set and when Jello Jay realizes what a bad thing the FISA legislation was.

In short, Never.

Gotta get back to my club.

We’re not an easy crowd – which makes your willingness to be here all the more appreciated. Thank you.

Why don’t I feel better?

Because Senator Levin is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Our country is facing very real and very difficult problems and Obama and Levin are going to propose at most patches for them which will translate into too little too late.

Thanks, Emptywheel. Though I am sorry that the Senator had to go back to, ahem, work so quickly.

David, I hope that you can encourage Senator Levin to come back and answer the questions on this blog, the American people are livid at this lack of oversight !

Bingo

Christy has a new post upstairs

I think that’s quite true and he answered absolutely nothing.

exactly. and why it is so important they hear from us that that’s just not good enough.

I agree completely.

Not only those who committed these acts must be brought to justice, but more importantly those who authorized these techniques. Anything short of that is a disgrace to America and everything that America stands for.

The rest of the world looks to America as an example of the way things should be done. They are looking to see if our words are simply meaningless rhetoric, or if we really are one of the greatest nations in the world.

FWIW, Frank Church was my friend and mentor. And I have little doubt that he is turning in his grave over the impotence of Democratic oversight of the past couple of years

oh David, I hadn’t read that before. I hold him in the highest regard. A man who truly loved his country. Have you written about him before ? – would so enjoy reading it.

god, he would love your work

Frankly, we’re an average crowd of Americans, deeply frustrated at the direction this administration has taken, carrying the leadership of both parties in its wake. There may be more degrees here and better spelling than could be found on any given Main Street, but I suspect the sentiment is the same.

Now that the Democratic leadership can taste the power it will shortly acquire, what will it do with it and on whose behalf will it do it? Will Sen. Levin repeat his performance here after the Democrats achieve victory in November, or will the phrase, “accountability moment” become accepted wisdom rather than a travesty?

I don’t support impeachment proceedings against President Bush.

Torture and War Crimes are not a reason to impeach? Well if one person does not have rights then we all don’t have rights Senator after all just how do you know that Bush isn’t listening to your phone calls?
If the entire U.S Senator keeps on walking by and doing nothing about a people being tortured by our own government well then is not the Senate in effect like onto the people who walked by and ignored the person the Good Samaritan helped?
Who in the Senate will stand for the values of Christ?

Senator Levin, thank you for your participation. What is your understanding of the status of Durham’s investigation of the destruction of the torture tapes, and are you and Senate satisfied with the progress? Have you seen the excerpts from Jane Mayer’s new book that clearly insinuate that VP Cheney was dressing down John Helgerson right in the time period critical to the tape destruction? Does that cause you any concern? I can tell you that, as a citizen, I most certainly am not satisfied with yet another stalled out do nothing investigation run by a criminally obstructionistic AG Mukasey.

He had a roll call vote to go to — which we knew was upcoming when this was scheduled. It had nothing to do with things getting “too hot,” it had to do with Senate schedule. I think some folks need a refresher course in what we mean when we say “be polite” with guests.

The reason we get guests to come here in the first place — which is incredibly difficult to manage, given how insanely busy most of these people’s schedules are — is because we offer a forum where they can have an intelligent conversation with rational and well-informed people. The moment we start acting like a juvenile mob of imbeciles who only delight in shouting and spouting off, we lose the ability to have the conversations because people will no longer want to have them with us. Just something to think about the next time folks want to try and one-up instead of conversing…you may be screwing it for everyone else by getting mouthy instead of having a respectful, fact-filled conversation.

Jane, Marcy and I and everyone else here have worked very, very hard to develop a forum where our readers can have discourse with elected officials and policymakers because such access and open, frank discussion is important –= both for all of us and for them. They don’t get it nearly enough. If we act badly, we will no longer have so many of those opportunities — and we all lose out, then, and all of our efforts to build this up will be for naught. Keep that in mind, please…

Good question on excessive speculation. The Congress has been aware that this kind of speculation has been going on since 2004 and they have done almost nothing to squeeze this kind of speculation and those who engage in it from the market.

Frankly, we’re an average crowd of Americans, deeply frustrated at the direction this administration has taken, carrying the leadership of both parties in its wake. There may be more degrees here and better spelling than could be found on any given Main Street, but I suspect the sentiment is the same.

there may be better spelling, but not from me.

seriously, i agree. but that doesn’t mean that senator levin gets questions like these thrown at him every day. i just wish he did.

I’m a little unclear about the benefits of having guests when they don’t interact with the host or other guests and leave before dinner is served. The benefits seem asymetrical. Rereading Sen. Levin’s responses, I’m hard put even to call them that.

Thank you Christy!

correction:
Senator, thanks for taking the time to listen to ordinaryextraordinarily heroic and patriotic citizens today.

He may not get these questions every day but his answers do certainly seem stock.

Christy, perhaps the time to take this up is with Nancy Pelosi in Austin. I doubt she will leave there without getting an earful from many, many concerned progressives on a range of issues from S-CHIP to FISA to Impeachment.

My apologies if I was too strident… it’s seven years of frustration bubbling up.

Senator Levin, it was an honor to have you at FDL.

The benefit, it seems to me, is that maybe, just maybe, he will have one of his staff read the questions.

Because he and his staffers got asked a number of questions about which they will now think. Questions that might not have been asked of them directly recently or otherwise. It isn’t just about you getting the answer to your pet question — or anyone else. It’s about us being able to directly ask the questions in the first place, which has great value in terms of adding to the conversation. And pushing potential action.

Here’s an example: last summer, with the You Work For Us Summer Tour effort we did, several FDL readers met with Sen. Bingaman about FISA. I was told by a Hill staffer last week that the meeting made such an impression on him that his amendment which was offered came as a result of him thinking about that meeting over the course of the last year.

You never know where a seed, once planted, will take root or how it will grow. You all want immediate, measurable action in the form you want it now. Government sometimes takes much longer than that — and you have to look at the long game as well as the short game.

As Christy said, he left when the roll call had one minute left, and about the time he was scheduled to leave. He did, fairly, answer Valtin’s very specific questions. Did he answer the impeachment question beyond saying he didn’t support it? No. But then, it probably was then futile for about 100 people to keep asking it, huh?

Thanks to Valtin for making some use of this chat.

I’ve written about Sen. Church here and here.

There’s a picture of me interviewing him here. I was 22 at the time. And a bit thinner.

I was trying to be polite while I was being pointed.

I’m sure the Senator doesn’t do a lot of posting and chatting, ha, so I wasn’t put off by his seeming lack of response. It could be he was spending too much time analyzing what “waiting for people to move threads” could possibly mean!

He came here of his own volition, and I imagine he’ll be reading our questions and thinking about them later when he has room to breathe.

So if the Senator’s people are reading this: I for one think it was wonderful of him to come here and be willing to put himself in front of us for this.

that is what i am hoping. and that would be benefit enough.

thanks to marcy for the chance to have our issues and questions heard.

My frustrations are obvious, if indelicately expressed. But I echo other comments here in having respect and admiration for the work, the personal and professional sacrifice and commitment, of Jane, Christy, EW and the entire team at FDL.

And thats why we will win stock answers don’t cut it against thinking people on the issues. Stock answers only work when voters are not paying attention. The Senator hopefully will have better answers next time and to be fair Mark Penn was much worse.

btw, I have a fresh post up and running for folks if you want one…

Senator Levin, in particular, hasn’t done a chat like this before. I’m grateful he took the time to try it. Also, I think he has said in conversations with me in the past that he’s a hunt and peck typist (though note–he seems to be much better at tech issues than McCain, who’s of the same generation).

Be nice to Sen. Levin, this was his very first online chat. And I think he handled being hit with a bundle of questions all at once fairly well for a newbie. *g*

Thanks to everyone at the Lake for arranging this. Sorry to have been one of the ones piling on, but as others have said, there are several years of frustration to deal with here.

If Senator Levin wants to defend why he doesn’t support impeachment, he should let us know and examine what those reasons are. If he wants to explain how this Administration can be held to account by not holding it to account he should. If he wishes to tell us why with Democratic majorities the Congress has refused for the last 2 years to take any substantive action to block or curb this Administration’s excesses and has indeed extended and promoted them, then by all means let him.

But if the idea is that we are to engage in another episode of the Emperor has no Clothes, this time with Democrats in place of Bush and Cheney, then we should be up front about that. It is not possible to discuss the miserable performance of this Democratic Congress without noting to some degree its miserable nature. We are the fact based side of the blogosphere and those are the facts.

What did you think of his mentioning of the ability of Congress to pass classified annex to the public versions of bills. Should we be hoping that there has been a little more oversight through this route? I haven’t heard much discussion on this front. He seems to be pointing us to the Intelligence Authorization Bill in this regard.

We appreciate all the work you, Jane, and Marcy do. This was an excellent opportunity to speak truth to power, and get our questions out. I think most did a good job of reining themselves in here, but maybe we can do better.

For my part, I feel validated that my supposition about the December 2001 approach by the administration to SERE, confirmed by Lt. Col. Baumgarten and backed up by documents that remain classified, is key to moving forward with war crimes trials.

Of course, we all believe such trials could be made now. But we forget that the administration has been gaming the system, and what works in the court of public opinion doesn’t work in the court of law. But the Bushies got a little too gung-ho, and started implementing the torture apparatus before they got the legal instruments in place to cover their asses. That’s the significance of switching the timeline back from July 2002 to December 2001 (which significance Sen. Levin didn’t address).

Senator Levin said he would ask for declassification of these documents when the SASC report was “finalized”. He then backed down, somewhat, and said that “we’re not waiting for our report to be finalized to ask for declassification of numerous documents”. Now whether those numerous documents include the Dec. 2001 related documents, he didn’t say, and I’m dubious.

Christy, Jane, Marcy — I can’t keep putting this issue out here on my lonesome. Smintheus at Daily Kos did jump on board at Daily Kos and publish a front page story there on this. And as you can tell from the comments, I have my supporters on this issue. But until and unless it’s taken up by the broader netroots community, and then the MSM, the necessary pressure to get to what genuinely looks like a smoking gun set of documents will pass by without action.

I asked my question, not because I expected an answer, but because I wanted Senator Levin to think about the issue I raised. There’s no way for anybody to answer the question I asked in chat like this unless they had already thought about it. I’m happy if Senator Levin read my question.

I would just point out that a bogus OLC opinion legitimizing torture is not worth the paper it is written on. Although this Administration has tried to use it this way, it is not a get-out-of-jail card. Violations of criminal statute, the Constitution, and international treaty are still violations. No amount of pixie dust will change this, but enough Congressional inaction will.

Can a non-American come in here? The real risk of not finding a way of bringing these people to account is that someone else will. The current attempt to indict the Sudan President in the ICC is a sign.Sudan, lke the USA, doesn’t rcognise it.

Lots of people over here didn’t understand why the US refused to sign up, it was apple pie and Western democracy at its best, wasn’t it? Now an adminstration after the one that refused to sign up has shown us why. It is so that America can thumb its nose at all the rules of International law.

If President Obama (please!!!) doesn’t follow up somehow on these really evil people, he will struggle to make the connections he wants around the World and make America respected again.

EW and Christy:

A thank you to Senator Levin and FDL for arranging this opportunity. Short of going to DC or his home state, this is a chance for us to ask questions outside of normative forums for asking questions (snail mail/email/fax/town meetings).

I realize this is difficult to arrange a visit like this. I know our frustration levels are EXTREMELY high but rudeness will not get us further dialogue and change. If we walk away from these encounters with one good piece of information (Valtin, thank you), it has been worth the time. If readers are frustrated after the live chat is done, follow-up with an articulate letter, restating your question or response to his comments.

For my part, I feel validated that my supposition about the December 2001 approach by the administration to SERE, confirmed by Lt. Col. Baumgarten and backed up by documents that remain classified, is key to moving forward with war crimes trials.

Valtin is correct, this is the smoking gun and it needs netroots support and could receive quite the broad base response in building a coalition. Hopeful the Lake and EW will be all over this…

Excellent take. I’m late to the thread and skimming. Likely in real time, pups found this session one-sided, but you raise the strong point [especially with the backstory that Levin’s new to this kind of exchange–props to him for doing it] that we have a valuable opportunity here to convey our concerns and our takes on issues. Let’s not waste the chance we’re given.

We are breaking new ground and reaching the kind of access usually reserved for the guys with the big checkbooks.

Thanks to Jane and Christy and emptywheel for all you’re doing to build this access.

And to reassure you, he will also fail to make connections to the citizens of the United States to build any self-respect for the citizenry.

Any outside help would be greatly appreciated from this US citizen’s perspective.

Just in case the Senator reads this later -
I wanted to say thank you for your vote against the new FISA.

I also want you to know that, as a Michigander, I want this administration held accountable, I want Cheney and Bush impeachment proceedings started so we can start to find out how deep their criminality goes. If this does not happen, the Democrats will be viewed as totally culpable…although the FISA vote all ready but this cloak on their shoulders – to not start impeachment proceedings would button the cloak all the way up to the neck.

Your point is well-taken. But they are doing everything to move the timeline forward, and not have it go back to 2001. Why?

Fast-forward to Bush’s trial in the Senate:

Bush: But I did everything legally. I relied on legal counsel and written opinions.

Senate prosecutor: But Pres. Bush, we have documented evidence your administration took steps before these OLC opinions were rendered.

—- The same can go for a jury trial any of the other war criminals.

But they are doing everything to move the timeline forward, and not have it go back to 2001. Why?

after what we saw happen wrt legislation amending FISA this past year, i have to at least entertain the possibility that the D leadership in congress participating in a coverup of the Bush administration crimes.

i hope, very, very much to be proven wrong.

Valtin – add the Dec. 2001 Shiffren info with the fact that the MSNBC piece featuring Fallon and others from the JITF indicated that complaints about violations of the Geneva Conventions were being sent from GITMO back to DC in Jan. of 2002, and Gonzales writes his Jan 2002 memo about making up a construct that no rules of any kind apply to anyone the President calls an enemy combatant – even with no proof or reason or logic – and that this made up construct will help them avoid future prosecutions for war crimes – — – that all gives a little context, doesn’t it?

I’ve appreciated your diaries at kos, btw. Didn’t Philbin pen a “no rules” memo going back into 2001? I’m not sure I remember that correctly.

There was the earlier Philbin memo, but it didn’t directly address detainee treatment. Hence the need for another opinion later in 2002.

It’s all about throwing up a legal screen of plausible deniability, and ward off the obvious criminal actions (as Hugh points out).

The Democrats, or some in the leadership, are implicated in the cover-up. And this is surely part of the problem. But, I don’t know if they were read in to the torture issue at such an early date (Nov or Dec 01). Maybe they were, and that’s important to find out. The Pelosi/Harman notifications came later in 2002 (or the ones we know about).

Valtin,

I’ve put together a number of instances where the Administration’s policy preceded the OLC opinions that ‘legalized’ the behavior. They include warrantless wiretapping, torture, renditions specifically for torture, and a few others. This is a repeated feature of this Administration

Senator Levin:

Those who watched Haynes’ testimony found his failure to remember key events and memos incredible. In other words, he was likely lying or refusing to answer, and, in effect, mocking the Senators right to question him. Do you anticipate any sanction for such uncooperative testimony?

Hopefully he will be back but with better answers.

Then I suggest that Jane, Marcy and Christy ask questions that are submitted by commenters to them… and ask one question at a time so the guest responds to every question. I would be willing to submit my questions to you.

Since a number of congress critters have stated they are opposed to impeachment (Levin, Pelosi, probably others), why not have the House Judiciary Committee hold hearings on just the idea of impeachment (of course it would get personal vis a vis Bush)…interview those who oppose it as well as those who would speak for it? Just to get a discussion of impeachment on the record would be a plus for the history of this period, as well as frustrating the pants off Bush. No vote for or against, just discussion, constitutional responsibility, etc. To those who would say it’s a waste of time; well, what have many of these hearings been anyway?

Agree. I think they were putting stuff in there limiting torture–a DiFi bill.

Agreed.

But that doesn’t mean they still don’t want to hide as much of this behavior as they can. At a certain moment, it might reach a tipping point. That it hasn’t yet speaks volumes about the political and social reality we live in.

If the rationale for the FISA legislation and for a go-slow on hearings and the enforcement of Congressional subpoenas relates to complicity in Bush’s conduct by senior Democrats, those Democrats would not find an impeachment inquiry attractive. That’s because it would create an official record of wrongs or possible wrongs that merited further inquiry, whether by way of a vote on impeachment in the House and trial in the Senate, or investigation and prosecution in open court by federal prosecutors.

Many Democrats seem to have joined lock-step Republicans in concluding that if any wrongs were committed, they were political wrongs committed in good faith, and should be kept off the record. After all, unlike drug and gun violence and repeat offenders, for which Congress imposes rigid, mandatory prison sentences on conviction, Mr. Bush’s wrongs, if any, didn’t harm anyone. They kept us safe, didn’t they Dr. Szell?

An impeachment investigation is simultaneously an investigation into the dereliction of duty by Democratic Leadership/Gang o Eight folks. As you know, I have been saying that for years; same result, they want nothing to do with that.

Thank you for coming to FDL Senator Levin. As one of your Michigan constituents, I urge you to give serious consideration to the points that have been raised. The Bush administration has been allowed to continue to violate the law with impunity under a democratic congress. After 2006 we were counting on the Democrats to restore the rule of law and demand accountability. They have done no such thing. Why not?