Login Here[Please welcome Sen. Byron Dorgan to FDL to discuss contractor corruption, fraud and waste. As with all guest chats, please stay on topic and be polite -- please take off-topic discussions to the prior thread. Thanks! -- CHS]
Since December 2003, the Democratic Policy Committee (DPC), which I chair, has held seventeen oversight hearings to examine waste, fraud, and corruption in Iraq.
Last Friday, I held a hearing to investigate contractor KBR’s tragic failure to correct faulty electrical work at U.S. military installations in Iraq, even after the United States Army issued a bulletin stating that improper wiring by contractors had resulted in the electrocution deaths of several soldiers. Earlier last week, the American commander in Iraq, General David Petraeus, stated that at least thirteen Americans had been electrocuted in Iraq since the war began, and that many more soldiers have received painful shocks.
One of the thirteen Americans who died by electrocution in Iraq, Staff Sgt. Ryan Maseth, a decorated Army Ranger and Green Beret, was electrocuted while he was showering. Cheryl Harris, Staff Sgt. Maseth’s mother, testified that her son’s death was the result of KBR’s “failure to correct a known electrical hazard in a building replete with electrical hazards.” She discovered that KBR knew about this hazard in her son’s building eleven months before his death.
The hearing also featured the testimony of two whistleblowers who worked as electricians in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Debbie Crawford, a licensed electrician with 30 years of experience, testified (PDF) that she saw shoddy, dangerous, electrical work in Iraq. When she told her foreman about it, he said "forget about it, close the door, stop looking at it.” Ms. Crawford also testified that KBR sub-contracted out much of its electrical work to third country national and local national workers who, Ms. Crawford said, "were not familiar or skilled in U.S. quality standards, U.S. safety standards and installation techniques, or U.S. codes." Jefferey Bliss, a former Navy electrician who worked for KBR in Afghanistan, also testified that "the carelessness and disregard for quality work at KBR was pervasive" and that he was “surprised to discover how many KBR electricians did not have the right experience and training."
Over the last five years, our country has asked tens of thousands of young men and women in uniform to go into harm’s way in Iraq and Afghanistan. While these soldiers have answered the call to serve our country on the battlefield, they never expected that their lives might be endangered when taking a shower. There have been massive failures by contractors, which combined with a lack of oversight by the Pentagon, have presented unexpected and unnecessary hazards to our troops.
(YouTube -- Sen. Dorgan questioning Cheryl Harris at the DPC hearing last Friday.)
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Welcome Senator
Welcome Senator Dorgan. Thank you so much for your work on this issue.
I guess we can now all agree,we broke the POT..(Pottery Barn ref)
Thank you for coming today, Senator.
Welcome, Sen. Dorgan. Thanks so much for being here this morning and for all your efforts on these issues. I find it infuriating that contractor fraud an abuse is not getting more attention in the Congress as a whole or in the media. What can we do to help raise the profile of these issues? And, more importantly, how do we hold these folks accountable?
How can we ever recover from the MASSIVE misuse,of money ,men,and our Nationas good will around the world….?
What recourse does Cheryl Harris have, and what recourse do we taxpayers have, Senator?
’mornin’, Byron — thanks for coming by. One of the most frustrating parts of this is the culture–media-magnified–of oh, well…it’s war, and stuff happens….
What do you plan to do with these hearings? What accountability can we expect? How do you break thru the media’s obsession with the political horserace and trivial over these serious issues?
~ Sandy Huseby
Welcome to the Lake. Senator Dorgan,
and thank you for bulldogging this issue, there is just NO excuse for KBR’s actions, as well as the other crooked/negligent contractors.
And my sincere sympathy to the families who have lost loved ones due to this greed and negligence. There’s just no excuse.
From my scandals list and based on a report by Henry Waxman’s Houe Oversight Committee:
Coincidence?
Good morning. It’s good to be with you. You ask how will we recover from all of this.
First we have to expose it, then stop it, and then require a much different approach to contrating in the future.
What remedies for this can be quickly effected, or at least started?
disgusting…The war/death merchants continue to prosper
You’re right. There is no excuse. I am trying to enact some reforms that will require contractors who engage in this type of behavior to be barred from any future contracts.
Sen. Dorgan, how about reparations?
how do we get our money back, in addition to holding top executives to CRIMINAL account?
our 4th estate..our “liberal media” seems to have no taste for such exposure
Didn’t the military used to take care of these things themselves…without contractors?
Thank you FDL for this forum. Good morning Sen. Dorgan. Here we are July 14, 2008, I myself have seen and heard many hearings of the Bush Adminstration. To my viewing of the last 8 years is that criminal entities that have infested every branch of our gov’t. The Bush/Cheney/Congress does not have the best interest of the American people in site. You all have lost or sold the American peoples best interest for money. It is so dishearting to see this happen. All preventative.
Cheryl Harris is doing what she can to highlight what happened to her son and who is responsible for it.
I appreciate that she is willing to speak out. One of the things I am especially troubled about is the lack of response by the U.S. Army to her questions and inquiries.
Hope you’re not including Senator Dorgan in that sweeping statement. We have lots of really good people in the legislative branch. The executive, not so much.
You mention reforms. But aren’t there laws already in force under which people or corporations are held accountable? And if they are not held accountable this time, what’s to prevent future abuses?
Thank you, Senator Dorgan for taking a stand and doing what you can to bring these abuses to light.
It appears that Halliburton is one of the worst offenders in this arena.
I think if you somehow managed to get Halliburton banned first, that would be a tremendous accomplishment and would be the perfect symbol that it is time to clean things up.
Sandy:
I am trying, with these hearings to get enough Senators interested to create a specail committee in the Senate modeled after the Truman Committee during the Second World War. It was started with $15,000 and save the U.S. $15 billion by investigation waste, fraud and abuse in the military and by contractors.
Some of the most respected and decorated men in military history, like Maj. General Smedley Butler from WWI and Gen. Eisenhower, and others even before them, have warned of the evils of war profiteering.
(Gen. Butler’s writings are as applicable today as they were in the 1930s when he wrote them…http://warisaracket.com)
How do you think we’ll be able to stem the tide of history, where these warnings go unheeded and ignored by most politicians and citizens, and actually stop the unnecessary Death and Destruction once and for all?
Senator, thank you so much for visiting today
The responses to the committee’s questions are flabbergasting. Do you have a line on who in the DoD is giving KBR the Big Pass? I am reminded, too, about Parsons’ huge building mess and how the “contractors” they used made a hash of it. Except, according to investigators, it was Parsons’ total lack of project oversight that resulted in the building never being occupied.
Now what?
A couple of more from my list:
I bring these up not only because of our guest but to point out that there are people on the inside who are running interference for these shoddy contractors.
I found the multiple statements that the Army had given her regarding potential causes of death — including the ludicrous “your son took an appliance with him in the shower” story to be incredibly offensive. It smacked of what Pat Tillman’s family had gone through earlier. Absolutely shameful to do that to a grieving family that just wants answers…and raises all sorts of questions as to why the Army’s counseling service would feel the need to attempt to cover for KBR.
Have you gotten any real response from the Army on that as yet?
How does oversight for contractor abuses compare to oversight for fraud and corruption within the military? If there isn’t parity, do you have what you need to make those responsible be held accountable?
Aha! Just what I expected to hear from you when I lobbed that softball. Now, what can we do to help? How can we put the synergy of the blogosphere to work for this goal?
Why are the contractors paid in advance of the work being inspected…and passing inspection? Are thy inspecting their own work? That would be akin to filling out your own report card.
Yes, the military used to perform many of these tasks with soldiers.
Remember the term ”KP duty”. That used to be something that related to the ”kitchen patrol” duties for soldiers. All of that is now outsourced.
I understand the studies that led to the outsourcing of many of these duties were done when Dick Cheney was Secretary of Defense.
Welcome, Senator Dorgan. It was great to meet you the other day and I’m glad you could find time to come here to FDL and chat.
Can you tell us about the Halliburton hand towels? I must say, I really covet one of those.
Senator Dorgan, I can understand why DPC held hearings when Republicans were in control. My question is, why now? Are Republicans blocking full committee hearings?
One of the problems that the DPC hearings highlighted on Thursday was that the contract review folks — Like Bunny Greenhouse and others — have been substantially undercut in their ability to review abuses within the Pentagon system itself with these contractors. One of the things that I found most disturbing to learn in those hearings was how many “independent contractors” have been brought in to “audit” these contracts rather than relying on the folks who got marginalized by the DOD after they found fraud, waste and all sorts of problems with these contracts in the first place. I had no idea they had brought in outside contractors to do this work — while folks like Bunny Greenhouse sit at a desk in the Pentagon and aren’t allowed to review anything because they were sidelined for doing their jobs well.
Infuriating doesn’t begin to describe that.
Senator, why aren’t the contractors being held criminally responsible when their failures lead to the death of personnel?
Why are there hearings, and not prosecutions?
Senator, thank you for being here today and working on these things.
I am a USAF veteran (12/76 - 9/82) and wonder when did these types of out-sourcing of EVERYTHING occur? We may have complained about the food in the Mess Hall but we knew that the folks doing the cooking and serving were our peers and eating the same food and living amongst us.
Just as the supply folks were there and could explain the process, so were the electricians and the rest of the Civil engineering group.
With the system as it is now, not only do the GIs not know any of the folks providing the services, it appears there is no recourse. How do we get back to a world where the GI is providing the services to other GIs whether stateside or overseas?
You’re right! It is not just KBR. Parsons, and a number of other corporations have been paid for shoddy work in Iraq.
I did some hearings on the issue re. Parsons and the health clinics they were supposed to build. It turns out they were ”imaginary clinics” according to one witness before my committee.
With respeot to how this all happens, there is a record of two hearings I held with Bunnatine Greenhouse who was the highest civilian contractor at the Corps of Engineers where these contracts originated.
She said it was the ”most blatant contract abus” she had witnessed in her career.
Is the privatization/no regulation style of governance the root of the problem here? Is there an inherent collateral effect of rewarding deficiencies and incompetence and corruption?
Or, in the case of Bechtel, their construction contract was only terminated once the press exposed the wholesale shabbiness of a hospital construction project. There was internal inspection that showed problems all along, but the Pentagon ultimately had not terminated the project with them until they were shamed into doing so — most of all by international press coverage of the problem.
Thank you, Sen. Dorgan for all you do on this issue, along with that “carnival of greed”, oil speculation.
Why does it seem so hard to get majority of your fellow senators to join you in cleaning up this mess?
I know the numbers, but this contracting nonsense seems so cut and dried, and easy to fix with proper oversight.
Why can’t 10-15 senators from the other side support that?
The towels were purchased by KBR for the troops. But rather than ordinary towels KBR ordered towels with the KBR logo on the towel which tripled the price. Just a small example of how the taxpayers got fleeced.
That’s a great question — would love to know the full answer to that one myself.
I remember those — many thanks for your work on this. What confuses me about this is how this wasn’t enough to cancel the contracts. Since most companies have to jump through several hoops just to be considered for Gov’t contracts, I guess I don’t see how one of the ‘benefits’ of those hoops would be to make it easier to clamp down on abuses.
Senator Dorgan, thanks for your work on this issue. I agree with others here that accountability for the contractors and government employees who have abused the contracting system is just as important as efforts to prevent future abuse.
Senator,
Many commenters here have implied that some Senators and Representatives have portfolios that include significant holdings in the defense contracting (and related) industries. Is there any way to prevent this conflict of interest?
Or for the citizen to know who stands to gain from cost-plus, no-bid, no-accountability contracts?
On a more critical note, you voted to confirm General Davd Petraeus as CENTCOM commander on July 10, 2008.
http://www.senate.gov/legislat…..vote=00171
This is the same David Petraeus who was responsible for the following replete with complicit government officials and shady contractors.
Given your stand on corrupt contractors, how do you justify your vote?
If Sen. Dorgan or anyone has an update on Bunny Greenhouse, I’d love it. Last I heard she’d filed a grievance for her shoddy treatment by DOD, but I had not heard if there had been an outcome as yet on her filing? Anyone know?
Perhaps the best thing to do is close the revolving door between the military and the defense industry. Military brass might be less willing to look the other way if they weren’t getting chushy jobs upon retirement.
Senator, many of us saw this coming back when L. Jean Lewis was named to the Pentagon Inspector General’s office, to serve as Joseph Schmitz’s deputy. Both are gone now, but have things gotten any better in that office?
Senator, when I was in the USAF, I worked in Accounting and Finance, paying bills for goods and services provided to the base (Wurtsmith AFB, MI and Hickam AFB, HI) by commercial vendors of various types (mostly food and produce as I did a lot of Commissary Accounting).
Before I could process a payment, I had to have a signed contract specifying the goods/services to be provided (including per unit costs), a “receiving report” signed by an authorized Government official specifying quantities received of the goods and services, and an invoice from the supplier specifying goods/services delivered, quantities, and per unit costs. These all had to match up or I was not allowed to make a payment.
This is a simple explanation, but it was a process that worked. How do we get back to the proper controls that were once exhibited?
Bunnatine Greenhouse is a true hero.
Gen. Butler answered this in the 1930s:
http://warisaracket.com/
Obviously, most will answer that we first need to take steps in this direction, since there won’t be enough “support” for such drastic measures.
Considering practically every person I’ve ever talked to, military and non-military, extreme Liberal and extreme conservative, all agree that war profiteering is bad, I seriously question whether or not there would be enough political support for a politician to propose policies that would actually change things.
What have you got to lose in trying to save lives?
When the Pentagon propaganda pundit scandal erupted, I wondered how many of the “pundits” who were involved and also working for large military contractors had also helped push through some of those cushy, no-bid contracts for their employers. We are going to be digging on the facts involved in all of this mess for years to come, just trying to untangle all the interconnected cronyism and self-dealing — both inside the Pentagon and government and out.
I believe it may be. See my comment @ 8:28 for a simplified description of the process I had to follow to make a payment when I was in the Air Force. Each step of the process required specific individuals doing their job correctly from the Procurement officer to the warehouse receiving the goods to the submission fo teh receiving report to my processing the paperwork requesting a check to the actual cutting of the check. It seemed to be a cumbersome and to some, inefficient process but there were controls at each step fo the way and since we were all different groups and organizations with different chains of command, it worked to protect the rights of all.
Some of the Republicans complained about the new GI Bill, that it impacts retention. It seems that young GI’s see the contractors preforming some of the same duties and getting paid a good deal more and they wonder why they are working for the US Army rather than the KBR’s and other companies. Seems to me to have an impact on retention.
I agree. Charles Smith, who managed the Army’s LOGCAP contract with KBR, testified last week that the Pentagon outsourced the job that had always been done by Army auditors to a private contractor that was a consulting, not an auditing, firm. Mr. Smith said this was “unprecedented” in his 31 years of government contracting experience.
Last thread, Christie gave us some videos of last week’s hearings. They are great, but only highlighted you, Senator Whitehouse, and the Senators asking the good questions. Were there Senators trying to make your job more difficult? If so, who?
And her brother is Elgin Baylor!
Clearly you have never spoken with anyone from the Bush family.
You’d think that would have a huge impact, given how much some of those contractors are making to do some of the exact same work.
That’s a good point. We hear this frequently from troops and our hearing witnesses.
DIGG this
and upvote on reddit,
comment over there, too!
Trained on the taxpayer dollar, then shifting their skills to the corporate world of scammers. I addressed this with Representative Issa, but he didn’t see it as a problem. I guess we all know who he represents.
Let me also add that I worked for the Defense Logistics Agency as an In-plant Quality Assurance Specialist whee we “accepted” products. Before siging the form to “accept” something from a production line or some software, the product had to be “inspected” for compliance with the original contract and any approved/negotiated contract modifications.
Again, the controls did exist at one time.
You expected something different from Issa?
On oversight…my mind just went back to the day before 9/11, Rumsfeld was complaning about the accounting department of the DOD, missing, what was it??? oh about 2 trillion dollars of untraceable funds? Has anyone looked into that?
Sen. Dorgan — what sorts of things can we do to get our own Senators involved on these issues? What would be most helpful for you in pushing this forward in the Senate? Are there particular Senators who need some extra “attention” to push these issues forward in Armed Services and other committees?
What can we do on that front to help you out? Let us know…
What about obtaining recompense for the fraud, waste, and abuse? Are corporate wrongdoers on this to go free even as the telecoms are to go free for their criminal actions?
I don’t just want the war profiteering to stop and the shody work to stop, I want those who are guilty, those who ORDERED and covered up the crimes to see justice.
So far, we aren’t getting any at all for any corporate or political wrongdoing.
Makes me think of the munitions that arrived in Afghanistan via Albania via China…where were the inspections. (Waxman is on it!)
Bunny Greenhouse comes from a great family, but I think you mean Elvin Hayes.
Senator Dorgan,
Do you foresee a cleaning house at the DOD contracting offices when the the new administration takes office or are the bad old ways to entrenched?
It seems to me the controls still exist in some places. What I would like to know is if some of these no-bid contracts also bypassed the controls never to be seen again and if this is now standard operating procedure in Bushworld.
Never.
its runnaway corpratism
even better
I do think Issa is better than Garry Miller, but not by much.
prison terms,and rackeeteering charges,lie they do with illicit drug money…SEIZE ASSETS
Good morning, Senator Dorgan, and welcome. Thank you for spending time here with us today.
Where in that plan (the above referenced post), does actual accountability come into the picture? When will we be seeing indictments and charges being filed and appropriate punishment being meted out, as would happen in the private sector, to regular people involved in these kinds of scams and thefts?
“Ponder those words as you consider the predominant presence of former Halliburton CEO Dick Cheney in the councils of this White House, and how his old company has profiteered more than any other from the disaster that is Iraq. Despite having been found to have overcharged some $60 million to the U.S. military for fuel deliveries, the formerly bankrupt Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root continues to receive hundreds of millions of dollars in lucrative contracts.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....37251.html
Senator my nephew worked for this company. “kbr” He stated: If America ever knew the full scope of corruption in Iraq the American people would demand it be shut down yesterday~!! His comment was “THIS IS A CRIMINAL OPERATION just like the Mafia!” Any comments……
Senator,
As the uncle of two young men who served, one in Iraq with the Air Force, the other with California National Guard in Afghanistan, I want to thank you for your work to insure that shoddy work and services are removed as hazards for our troops.
Sen. Dorgan, I want to thank you for spending time with us on this issue this morning. And for all the work you and your DPC staff and office staffers have put in on this issue. You all really have been tireless pushing this — even way back when it was you, Rep. Waxman and a couple of people meeting in the basement because the GOP wouldn’t give you any other space for a hearing when they controlled Congress in 2003.
Truly, thank you so much for continuing hard work on this. It is very much appreciated.
Basically Senator, to riff off of sadlyyes, though hearings are nice and all, they don’t DO anything to correct the system or punish the guilty. It seems, this last decade (but particularly since the Democrats took Congress) that the ONLY thing hearings do is serve to politically embarrass people for electioneering purposes.
What about actually getting our taxpayer dollars BACK? What about seizing assets and seeing CEOs and other white collar types seeing some jail time AND losing personal assets purchased with ill-gotten gains? What about re-bidding with specific attention paid to local/domestic (Iraqi or Aghani, as appropriate) contractors and workers?
I’m hoprful because reform is urgently needed. What is going on now must stop — it does not serve our troops, our taxpayers, or our country. I can assure you that I will keep pushing for reform.
I see my time is up. I’ve enjoyed blogging with you and urge each of you to continue to raise awareness on this issue. For more information about the work of the Democratic Policy Committee on contracting waste, fraud and abuse, please visit dpc.senate.gov.
“THIS IS A CRIMINAL OPERATION just like the Mafia!” Any comments……
———–
it is so very obvious,that is why John McCain wants to stay there basically forever
Nuts…so he’s left the building? And no answer as to actual accountability and punishment. Just a promise for more hearings.
Hearings are useless and meaningless unless they are followed with indictments, trials, and prison time.
Thank you for coming Senator Dorgan,
and especially thank you for all the honorable work you do, Senator, don’t stop being a champion on this!
Drunks in denial?
Hearings first, indictments later?
Thank you Senator Dorgan. Good luck as you continue in these efforts.
I just found this profile of Bunny Greenhouse. I’m not sure I had known that Cheney’s famous expletive to Leahy was in regard to allegations made by Greenhouse.
Yes, well, I watched, read and participated with that one question.
This seems to be the pattern from congress people who come online here. No one answers that question. About the time everyone gets around to that, times up and they gotta go.
Typical.
The sad part to all of this is, is that per a Washington Post article today, they are swinging million over to Afganistan for permanent weapons depots and energy grids to keep a firm footprint in this area.
Do everything you possibly can to make sure Alan Grayson is elected this year:
http://firedoglake.com/2008/01.....son-fl-08/
well keep pounding them….didja know
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/20.....ys-strong/
BTW another reason that auditing is so bad is that there are so few auditors:
I’m really worried about the people in our own military that have gone along with this scam. I hope that President Obama will clean house, and strip the guilty officers of their pensions.
That NEVER happens. Subpoenas are ignored, or upon appearing, the House/Senate Cmte gets the runaround at best, total disregard and disrespect at worst (recent hearing with Yoo and Addington about torture), and nothing comes of it. The clock is run out (because anything substantive is too ugly and divisive) and that’s that.
oh what a lovely SCAM
Ain’t that sweet. Some of these yachts can hold enough fuel to stay afloat for 5 years without refilling. Somehow I see top administration officials living such a life. Maybe to top contractors too.
Typical not to get a response on accountability…and inevitable?
Important that we here and at every opportunity let our Senators and Congresspeople know that we expect accountability as part of the process.
The clamor must come from the people with persistence until that becomes the inevitability.
Accountability does matter.
Thank you, Senator Dorgan. It’s truly a privilege to have you here.
Hearings just don’t do anything for me. They certainly don’t earn my money or my vote.
ACCOUNTABILITY is where my money and vote can be had. No accountability, no vote and no money.
All while Republics were in charge. Can the Democrats find a voice to make the case against them?
Only 2 Senators Byrd (WV) and Harkin (IA) voted against David Peatraeus’ promotion to CENTCOM commander. Yet I have heard no Democrat defend their vote on it. Obama did say that he thought Petraeus had done a good job but he skipped the vote, as did John McCain.
Too many of the “leadership” have their hands in the till (or on really lucrative stocks) to do accountability. The Dems CAN’T reverse the GOP-led mafia syndicate the government has become, they have profited too much and are complicit.