zed

Here’s a link to NYT editorial on medicare..

Turns out that the goopers were so convinced that private insurers could do a more cost effective job of medicare coverage that they gave the private insurers SUBSIDIES for providing said coverage.. “HUH” you say- yep- that’s right!

Can these bozos ever get a sign right? Morans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07.....n1.html?hp

The link

morans

Yep, these guys are probably brothers.

LOL. We like this pic tooooo much.

Digg this Post by David!!

WARNING: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, WITH CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current President, 69 members of the Senate and 293 members of the House of Representatives.

I like the sign at the top that says “respect are (our) country - speak English”. You gotta love HIS English.

although if you pronounce ‘moran’ phonetically in Spanish it comes out something like ‘moron’ in English. the irony.

he was doing his job.

The greatest excuse for bein’ an asshole they’ve got.

Yeah, he goes right alongside this sturdy defender of the language.

But this bozo can spell “boycott.” Go figure. Both signs look like the work of one person.

that’s just offal.

Um, ’scuze me… That’s “defenderer”!

;~P

Gotta go feed my little brown squirrels. Hope I don’t run into any of these racists out in my yard. brb

The immigration issue is so important that the right has put it’s best minds to work on the problem.

ACLU and Endgame:

http://www.aclum.org/issues/ice_doc_gallery.php

If you were a minimally educated construction worker who saw your hourly rate go from $18.00/hour to $12.00/hour or to minimum wage…….well, just sayin’.

David — Lou Dobbs on CNN just “corrected” Obama, who reportedly had said that “la raza” means “the people.” Dobb’s said “la gente” means “the people,” while “la raza” means “the race.”

Well, if Lou Dobbs says it, it must be true.

It would be impossible to determine whether what “la raza” says is true or just without knowing EXACTLY what it’s name means in spanish.

Asserting his power over people. Wow, I’m so proud. NOT!

At the risk of having wrath rain down on my head, what exactly are you all defending? Is it okay with you that possibly 20,000,000 (20 million — count ‘em) persons with no legal right to be in our country are, in fact, in our country? Is that okay with you? I agree that we should be kind while disabusing folks of the notion that they have a “right” to settle illegally (i.e., squat) in America without papers. But, we need, I think, to deal with this invasion.

And, by the way, I don’t see anyone speaking out against legal immigrants. In fact, the loony regulations nowadays make legal immigration harder. (No I don’t know how to do the linky thing, but I do hear that we’re keeping out potential graduate students, for example.)

For those who have been around this blog a really long time, they know I am a big supporter of English as the national language and wrote several posts on it.

It is not all right for there to be (possibly) as many as 20 million people in the US with no legal right to be here.

But the concentration is always upon the “brown” people, many of whom are here legally.

Which means there’s little ever mentioned about all the undocumented folks who are here from Ireland and Poland and Germany and all the other European countries.

And why might those folks who are here without proper documentation given such a pass?

What do you recommend?

There are also illegal Russians in this country. I think they are ‘white’ — they shouldn’t be here either.

everybody knows what needs to be done

1. repeal NAFTA, CAFTA, SHAFTA

2. prosecute the illegal employers, not the desperate poor workers who come for the bait.

The dems had a sensible plan, which Insane johnny was even in agreement with before he did his flip flop. Building walls thinking it will keeps folks out or thinking you can deport 20 million people is really nuts.

I recommend that businesses check for legal ID. Now, I once hired a young woman who turned out to be illegal. I went through every governmental site I could find to figure out whether we could get papers for her. The golvernment (no surprise!) just sucks. they said I had to hire her without making her prove documentation and they would let me know next tax season whether or not I could continue to employ her. This was in January, so we had over a year to go. I let her go. she went back to work for McDonalds, which apparently has fewer qualms about keeping the illegals employed.

But I think the point of this post was more about the brutism this country is sinking into.

Thank you, LindaR. It IS about the employers. I’m convinced that it the Chamber of Commerce who keeps this mess going.

Hey Dearie,
Are you a Native American? Who exactly “belongs” in this country? Probably not you!

Under the current administration, America has indeed sunk into brutalism. Frustration. Inability to figure out what to do. What a goddamned mess. kick the bastards out and start fresh.

And here is one of those posts. English forever!

We are one nation from the Rio Grande to Montana, from Florida to Los Angeles and San Francisco. As one who is an aficionado of English, I say it is this language that binds us and our nation together. English is too important to become a political piñata. It has helped make us Número Uno in the world. We should keep it and although there is little chance of us losing it, if we did lose it, we could lose the whole enchilada and that would be plain loco. However unlikely, we could be left pronto with zero, zip, nada and that would be muy malo for us all.

Understand those who support English as the national language are not waging a guerilla war on some but are making a sincere effort to create a unifying and unitary ambiente simpático for us all. Mi casa es su casa after all. Nor is it an act of machismo by the current jefe and his junta. Indeed Bush’s pregnant pauses are the very opposite of this. They bespeak a man embarazado and that is an embarrassing state of affairs indeed.

No, amigos, compañeros, English as a national language is an act of faith, an auto de fe, as it were, of our rights. Let us not say hasta la vista, baby to an idea whose time has come. Let us embrace our inner pendejo and have the cojones to bid adiós to our doubts. To those who ask in the plaza of public opinion, ¿Qué pasa? here, let our answer and our language be clear: ¡Que será será!

You’re right on that. but my great-grandparents did come legally. they also foreswore any allegiance to former countries and bought into the American way with full enthusiasm. And I’d be happy to see legal immigrants continue to do so. When, BTW, did dual citizenship become the idea? And, Rowdy, we’d all still be in the heart of Africa if folks didn’t move on down the trail.

I also think that ‘native americans’ immigrated from China.

We have an administration that tortures people, & jails them without due process. They break any law that gets in the way of their power grab. They’ve killed more than one million people in Iraq. I don’t think they are worried about their lack of humanity or brutality.

This is why the Lou-Dobbs-is-a-pig argument bores me so much.

As I said. We all know that the only answer is to come down hard on the illegal employers. Until that is done, no one can claim to be serious about the issue.

“illegal” workers are desperate people is horrible circumstances. they are not the problem; they are the symptom of the problem.

The problem is employers who see slavery as a legitimate path to profitability — and the polititians who don’t mind.

Viva Hugh! One of several classics.

Hunger knows no borders, no boundries. If the corporations who make enormous profits by exploiting these folks, the Iowa raid for instance, hadn’t used that same profit motive to destroy what jobs they had in Mexico and Central America they wouldn’t have come here. If you’re of European descent your ancestors committed genocide to steal the land of those who lived here first. Now there’s something to be proud of, right? Further, could you give us an example of just how these “illegals” have affected you or your family?

I know. I feel like we’ve collectively suffered a psychotic break with all this violence and sadism committed in our name.

And where do you get off calling them “bastards?”

I think you got confused on who the “them” was. . . .

And that is why there will never be an answer to the situation. It’s been talked about for as long as I can remember - but usually really gets going about every 4 years when the rightwing can strut it stuff. It’s amazing how the politicians get away with saying biased things but they never fix the problem. I wonder why……..could be money.

I think Dearie is referring to the current administration in DeeCee with that term…

She’s talking about the government. Congress and El Presidente.

Then the term is too polite.

Unclear, once again. The bastards I’d like to kick out are the governmental overlords who won’t work out a reasonable immigration process so that we can bring people in fairly and as needed.

ok

FYI, my greats all came in the late 1800’s — fleeing poverty in Europe…..but they came legally. They learned the language, went to school, committed no crimes. American dream, as it were. Back off.

Some time ago, Arizona passed a referendum declaring that government publications must be only in English. Since then I have awaited the change-over in street signs and maps, in town and city names…but strangely enough, this has not happened. We still have a town called Casa Grande, instead of Big House. We still have all those Spanish street names, and the residents of Rancho Sin Vaca have not changed their enclave to No-Cattle Farm. San Manuel isn’t being called Saint Mike’s.

I am perplexed at this scoff-law attitude. I suspect that, were the English-only crowd to succeed elsewhere, we would see similar law-breaking everywhere.

Meanwhile, I think that woman who was chained up to give birth should sue, sue, sue.

Why, you act like this place is some foul-mouthed fem blog or something…

Did we change?

I forgot the close snark tag.

So ICE removed its little Endgame document just like PNAC removed their Strategic Defense document once it hit the oxygen of reality, huh?

Nazi is to Jew
US racist is to brown noncitizen

I do think that there is something to promoting English as the common language (tho some on site this fine day may think we should be speaking hundreds of native languages /s) and most immigrants used to do that. There are in my area immigrants (legal and illegal) who live here for 35 years and more and still don’t bother to learn English. I think that is odd. But when areas become heavily — oh let’s be straight here — hispanic, then there is no reason for folks to learn English. I think this is divisive.

Are you referring to PNAC’s “Rebuilding America’s Defenses?”

Older people have a difficult time learning new languages sometimes. Cultures tend to live in the same neighborhoods. If someone is here legally, I don’t see why they should have to be forced to speak English. It certainly might help in finding work, but why make them if they don’t need to…

Heh, half my family was driven out for being ‘Loyalists’ after the Revolution and the War of 1812… Who subsequently forced the Acadians to depart Nova Scotia for the bayous of Lousy-anna…! What a wicked web we can weave…!

BTW did folks see that the publisher of the LA Times David Hiller resigned after yet more budget and staff cuts. Hiller was definitely not one of the good guys but it says a lot that even someone like him can’t handle what’s coming down the pike in the dead tree media.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07.....ref=slogin

I’m certainly open to ideas on how to accomplish that. Do the schools in those areas not teach in English? By the same token I’d like to see more Americans speak more than one language.

We’re talking illegals here.

You’re right in one regard — an “enforcement first” approach fails unless there is simultaneous prosecution of the employers’ lawbreaking. It simply won’t work.

Moreover, it fails to address the underlying economic issue — namely, the demand for workers to fill a labor pool. That’s why it also makes sense to make citizenship a rational process that can be simple and clean rather than the grueling obstacle course it currently is, but maintain controls over your levels of immigration. If you make these workers legal, employers can’t use them as under-the-counter economic levers.

But even if we do all of the above, we’ve only handled the “pull” end of the immigration tide. We haven’t even touched the “push” aspect of the problem — embodied by the massive unemployment of Mexican agricultural workers (in the millions) caused by NAFTA.

True comprehensive immigration reform handles that aspect of the problem as well.

Yes. Don’t worry, I know it still exists on the web, but PNAC’s site is not up anymore, or something…I thought it was interesting that it was published on the web, then depublished. Fortunately ACLU and others are sharp enough to capture these moments in fascism.

Every school has to teach english. Not sure about adults but NCLB requires testing in English for school aged children.

English has been the “common language” in the US all along.

Except for areas in Texas and the Southwest where Spanish was the original common language.

Or Hawaii, where the “common language” is Pidgin.

People do learn the language. The children of immigrants tend to be bi-lingual and speak English and whatever language their parents speak. Just as they pretty much have all along.

So…you are saying that illegals should be forced to learn English?

I’m all for language study! The irony is that my brother and I studied Spanish in high school. We had better vocabularies in Spanish than many employees who spoke the basest ‘Spanglish.’ What people often forget is that many of the illegals come with little, or even NO, education. And there is not the admiration of education that one finds in most Asian immigrant populations. You asked how the illegals have impacted my family —- schools in my town are so ‘limited’ that I couldn’t have sent my own children to them. Private schools are expensive, but if you want your children to be challenged, private school becomes a necessity.

ABC News just had a poll up that said 72% of Americans thought McCain would be a good Commander in Chief while less than half thought Obama would. Also they were split on Obama’s and McCain’s plans for Iraq.

I should note that ABC is filled with Republican shills and I am not a supporter of Obama.

But from where I sit, in Tucson, I’m looking at a region that was Hispanic for a lot longer than it’s been part of the United States. Tucson’s city charter is dated 1776. It’s from the King of Spain. So it chaps me when the nativists go on and on about how immigrants should learn the local language. Did they learn Spanish? No. Anglos are the immigrant culture here.

And lets not even talk about the Tohono O’odham, who actually control a long stretch of the US/Mexico border, and who are none too thrilled about a bunch of Anglos trying to build a fence on their sovereign territory.

stoopid heds.

I downloaded a copy when it first went up years ago. The same with any of their other writings they put up. The site is now non-existent. When it first went down there was a notice that their account was overdue. I guess Murdoch didn’t want to add any more to the million he looses each year with The Weekly Neocon, er, Standard.

Right. Correct. Well stated. Everyone, go back and read what David just said.

No. I’m not into FORCED teaching. I’m also not into doing everything in both English and Spanish to accommdate people who are not here legally!

Really? How do you know? Have you checked the papers of these hispanic people in heavily hispanic areas? Or are you talking about grandmas who still use their native tongue, as do their loving citizen grandchildren when speaking with them?

One of my ggggwhatevers was a stowaway from the Isle of Man who then jumped the Proclamation Line after the war. I think he was on the run and kept running! Others came in the late 1880’s in the height of the America Firster’s time. Awesome displays of enlightenment /s at the World’s Fair, doncha know!

I think people should be forced to learn English. I suggest electroshock and thumbscrews. Whips should, of course, be optional. I am a liberal after all.

Hmmm. Interesting. I won’t be surprised to see McCain win and Congress go more heavily Dem. Obama’s moves to the right erased a lot of reasons people supported him….big mistake. The corporate media will get McCain elected unless something big happens.

Or Hawaii, where the “common language” is Pidgin.

I’m still battling with my kids about speaking and writing proper English…

I won’t acknowledge them if they use pidgin… So far, it’s worked! ;-)

Same where I am originally from, in NM. 400 years old.

Yeah their account IS overdue, that’s for sure. It still says that btw…good on ya for keeping it on file. It gave me the chills when I saw it for the first time.

People who think their own ancestors came here legally would be startled if they did some actual research. I know I was.

Okay, no need to yell…geesh…It was just a question.

Pidgin to Da Max Bra!

The reality, however, is that the longitudinal studies show real socio-economic progress by Latinos. Progress is slower in some areas, such as the education level of adult immigrants, and faster in others, such as income and homeownership rates. But there is no doubt that both assimilation and upward mobility are occurring over time.
With respect to linguistic assimilation, which is one of the more important measures because it amounts to a job skill that can increase earnings, the historical pattern is as follows: The first generation learns enough English to get by but prefers the mother tongue. The children of immigrants born here grow up in homes where they understand the mother tongue to some extent and may speak it, but they prefer English. When those children become adults, they establish homes where English is the dominant language.

There’s every indication that Latinos are following this pattern. According to 2005 Census data, just one-third of Latino immigrants in the country for less than a decade speak English well. But that proportion climbs to 75% for those here 30 years or more. There may be more bilingualism today among their children, but there’s no evidence that Spanish is the dominant language in the second generation. The 2000 Census found that 91% of the children of immigrants, and 97% of the grandchildren, spoke English well.

I’m all for grannies! So you’re saying it’s peachy with you that we have 20 million illegal invaders who will have, what? 40 million+ additional children who WILL be legal? I have no problem with immigration. I do have a problem with an invasion of 20 million people who don’t speak the language. Nice, of course, that their children will. You know?

Hey, we still speak Spanish here in California.

One thing that really bugs me about the discussion of immigrants or new to the country ethnic groups is that my koolaid drinkin wingnut is all about supporting Cubans who vote Republican. They are A OK! Other groups and it’s adios MF.

Where does the 20 million figure originate?

Have you read that 90 page blueprint for a militaristic empire? Everything the Barnacle administration has done is right there. Too bad the congressgreedheads didn’t read it.

OK, Dearie, we hear your frustration…but it isn’t a black/white thingy. It’s the demand for cheap labor etc as Hugh and Dave and all outline.

I hear your frustration because I hear from many teachers here in California who cannot possibly keep up with the 20 plus languages that are spoken at home here in the Golden State. It’s a real burden. And we do need a common language.

heh. maybe they did.

gtg pups. catch ya next time SD.

The problem is the assumption made by so many that all those undocumented immigrants are a monolith speaking Spanish when they include a large quantity of folks who speak Polish and Russian and Lithuanian and English and French and all the other languages in the world.

Hell, even Michelle Malkin is an “anchor baby” so it’s not as if it’s a previously unused concept.

So, I’m getting that the crowd here today is okay with folks just coming into America and settling down? Anyone from Idaho? I hear there is quite some influx going on. Okay with you? And I am NOT talking about folks who migrate legally. the woman chained to the bed (which is reprehensible and disgusting!) was illegal. She was, however, providing us with a 4th legal child born in america.

The assimilation pattern for hispanic immigrants is not that different from other immigrant populations. They tend in the first generation to prefer their native language and to live in enclaves- as did the Irish and the Italians and the Germans before them.

The second generation, of course, are legal citizens and they tend to prefer english to spanish. Eventually there is a tendancy to move out of the enclaves (ghettos) and move into the cultural mainstream.

First, how do you know that the Spanish-speakers aren’t here legally? I know of a lot of people who are here legally, who were born here, whose parents and grandparents and great great grandparents were born here, and who speak Spanish by preference.

Second, how does it hurt you to have documents in Spanish? How does it hurt you to have someone speaking another language in your (or your kid’s) school? I’ve never understood why it’s even a problem.

It never bothered anyone that my great-grandfather read me fairy tales in German. Why does it bother you that some abuelo is reading to his great grandchild in Spanish?

I mostly see people exploring whether the “facts” you have posted are true or not..Isn’t that a good place to start a discussion?

It’s not an invasion. It’s an importation of cheap labor. They did not come here behind the barrel of a gun; they came here for the jobs on offer by American companies.

So you’re saying it’s peachy with you that we have 20 million illegal invaders

Never bet against demographics. The Rio Grande is a political border but not a demographic one. Workers will come as long as there are jobs here and not there. What is needed is long term investment in Mexico and less hypocrisy here: railing against “illegals” but wanting and benefiting from their cheap labor.

Population growth is a huge minus in the quality of life equation.

Our immigration growth will come back to haunt us in the future … in a big way

My wife was born in germany as were her sons. She prefers to speak german to them- to keep the language alive for them- they much prefer to speak english…..although their german is fairly good as they lived there for the first fourteen years of their lives. The third generation will likely not speak any german at all.

I really don’t think that is the point. Illegal immigrants bring down wages. illegal immigrants use resources that are often scarce. Illegal immigrants in my area crowd into housing and bring down property values. I have not said one word against legal immigration and just rather surprised that you all seem to think there is nothing wrong with illegal settlling. Just surprises me.

Learning the language of a neighboring country is just common sense. Mexicans need to learn English if they want to come here, and we would do well to learn Mexican (which, incidently, is different than, though similar to Spanish). We also should be highly interested in our kids learning other foreign languages. The reasons are too numerous to type out here, but common sense can guide you along there. The idea that we should speak and teach English and only English is a form of ignorance promotion. That’s always been true but is now more than ever, due to globalization.

Malkins’ parents were illegal? Did I mistake this whole thread? I know the woman chained to the bed was not chained because she was hispanic — or was she Irish? What am I missing here?

And by the way, my English and German immigrant ancestors were not “legal”…though I guess when the English came, they were legal since they came to occupy this British colony. The Germans had no visas, they just came for the work or to escape conscription. That was before there were any restrictions on immigration to this country, of course. The first generation were never naturalized, but of course their children were US citizens. And so on down to me.

I bet a lot of nativists would be alarmed if they took a look back at the status of their own immigrant ancestors.

CTuttle,
I think you’re wasting your time, bra!

Hawaii is, however, an interesting example. I’ve only been here 4 years, so mebbe you & dakine01 can correct me, but the issue of “immigrants” has a rather different flavor here in Hawaii than it does on the mainland. Here, the “immigrants” seem to be mostly haoles from the mainland, and Asians with more money than the locals. The immigrants drive expensive cars, buy condos or million dollar houses, and have Type A personalities. One of them, a 36-year old millionaire, was found in a crumpled heap at the bottom of a scenic overlook, after having been missing for several weeks. Or they’re beach bums.

These “immigrants” bring their bossy ways with them. They mistake Aloha for a lack of ambition, and seem to take advantage of it at every opportunity.

Immigrants of a different kind.

CTuttle & dakine01, how far off am I?

Bob in HI

?

Are you prepared to pay ten dollars for a head of lettuce or, more like, see all the lettuce rot in the fields? Are you prepared to see subdivisions essentially unlandscaped? Are you prepared to see the housing industry lose its cheap labor? Are you prepared to see childcare, housecleaning, hospitality, and eldercare costs skyrocket as laborers who perform these jobs are sent “home,” or to camps?

People crowd together in housing because they are underpaid and believe themselves to have few legal rights vis-a-vis landlords. They don’t bring down wages — they accept the low wages on offer by exploitative employers.

Have you checked the papers of the people in your area? How do you know it’s the “illegal” ones bringing down the property values? How do you know it’s the “illegal” ones using scarce resources? You say you make no criticism of legal immigration, but you’ve not really distinguished in your criticisms of migrants, have you, between legal and “illegal” unless you’ve checked their papers?

My ‘greats’ and one ‘great-great’ came in mid to late 1800’s and all were naturalized … with certain stipulations including someone to sponsor them and renunciation of former countries.

Well of course even natives are immigrants, but the asian immigrants came to work in the pineapple and sugar fields and eventually became a majority as I recall. Japanese/americans have long been at the top of the socio economic ladder in the islands I believe

12 million undocumented workers did not slip across the border one night. This is something that has been going on, allowed, and promoted for decades. Your concern now surprises me. Have you been as concerned during all that time when you were buying fruit and vegetables that cost a lot less because these “illegals” picked them? Did you complain that the cost of chicken was too low because they were processing it? Did you want to pay more for you house or office because they helped build them? Did you refuse to have your sheets changed at your hotel or your dinner served at a restaurant because they worked there?

Well I couldn’t agree less with you Dearie. I have no problem with the Hispanic/Latino neighbors I have and their children, which I teach. I don’t believe they have dumbed down my school or prevented the white kids from learning anything. I don’t fear Spanish or different cultural traditions, which I find enrich my life greatly. I don’t believe any human being can be “illegal” and it’s fine with me if those who are suffering greatly in their own country attempt to come here and do better for their families since we consume an enormously unfair share of the world’s resources.

I don’t use nor do I ignore dogwhistle comments that generalize negatively about a very diverse population of people. Puerto Ricans and Dominicans are Americans. Mexicans, Central and South Americans, and Caribbean guests in our country are delightful to me. I don’t believe they are ignorant, criminally inclined, or otherwise inferior and muddying the greatness of America. I believe they are human beings, with all the highs and lows that entails; some are good, some are bad, and most are just like me and my family.

Illegal immigrants bring down wages

The illegals didn’t bring down wages. The employers pay substandard wages to accumulate more profit. Living in FL I know that very rarely are white or AA folks willing to work in the fields, picking the tomatoes and oranges and cutting the sugar cane. It’s hard, nasty work and the working life of those folks is short. It’s only been in the last 2-3 years that we have been able to force the growers to pay a decent wage to workers, regardless of their ethnicity.

Migrant workers have been imported to do crap jobs for as long as there’s been work to do. I don’t see any difference between the Mexicans coming across the border for work, and my own German ancestors getting on a ship to come for work.

It’s a big country. Resources aren’t that scarce. The immigrant workers put a lot more value in than they take out of the system. I worry more about the ever-so-legal corporatists who are sucking up the public treasury to underwrite their private profits, and who are doing a hell of a lot more to bring down my property values and throw my neighbors into unemployment.

The Spanish speaking guy who wants to trim my trees and haul away the debris? His wife who wants to clean my house? They’re providing me with good value, working hard, and making my community a better place.

I believe her parents were from the Phillipines but don’t know their legal status. Although according to wiki, her father had a work visa.

But it works the same, they had an anchor child that helped to keep them here legally after the visa expired.

Part of the historic way of the US is that children born within the US are US citizens by birth. That has worked fairly well for us as a nation. For some reason, we still seem to be a shining beacon of hope to folks in other countries.

It appears that as long as the businesses at all levels here in the US decline to pay reasonable wages to US citizens to do the work and are willing to hire and and pay substandard wages to undocumented workers, we’re going to have this problem. As long as the racists are dominating the discussion, there is not going to be rational and reasonable resolution.

Some of my ancestors had brilliant timing too. They came just after the Civil War and just before being hit by Prussian conscription.

See, Teddy, that’s the interesting part. I WOULD be willing to pay a fair price for fair labor. If I couldn’t afford to pay a fair share, then I’d have to grow my own lettuce, wouldn’t I. Interestingly I work with this population, so I often know who is and who isn’t. I work for legal immigration because we clearly need workers and I do not like to see clients having to twist their lives to avoid deportation when all they want to do is be here openly. I favor righteous immigration laws, but I do not favor the system we have because people suffer. Some legal immigrants I know agree with me totally because they are often the ones who see their neighborhoods diminished by overcrowding. All I’m asking is this —- do you reallly think it is okay for folks to enter and settle without any documentation?

I don’t think illegal immigration is okay, but we have a system in place that encourages it, and because of that there are tons of people who have taken advantage of the system. The system has been around a long time and there are entire families here. I would suggest that the first thing to do to minimize it is to stop legalizing anchor babies as American citizens. Secondly, penalize employers who use those workers as slave labor. Rounding up parents and throwing them in jail and then eventually deporting them is cruel and unnecessary. It is a huge mess, and NAFTA and CAFTA need to be completely changed.

My father’s family came to South Carolina from France in the early 1750’s, on the run from the royal family. Something about a dispute over the throne. I don’t know anything more about them until just before the Civil War. They were slave owners and my gggrandfather was a Captain in the SC Cavalry. Not my family’s proudest moments.

May be hard to believe, but YES I have often spoken to the fact that I would pay more. and I give generous tips to motel maids and restaurant busboys (when I can) and I buy at farmers markets and pay full price and I pay whatever help I have (when I can afford help) top dollar. Why? Because it is the right thing to do.

do you reallly think it is okay for folks to enter and settle without any documentation?

This is a perfectly legitimate question that could have been, and maybe should have been, asked 40 years ago. It is a little late to be asking it now.

Well, historically, so many of the Japanese and Chinese (and to a lesser extent Filipinos and South Koreans and Pacific Islanders) were imported to the islands for the labor.

The rich Asians were just beginning the influx when I left in ‘82. As a haole GI, I loved life on the islands but knew it was way too expensive for me. And as much as I loved it, I also recognized I needed a trip back to the mainland every year or year and a half and that made it that much more expensive.

So many folks lack the understanding of the Aloha Spirit. They take advantage as they are I guess unable to recognize the underpinning of it, that life itself is to short and often brutish to allow yourself to get bound up in the small stuff. The Aloha Spirit also requires a certain level of graciousness and giving that seems sometimes to just be foreign to mainland folks.

Off to feed the tigers and myself. Later. Namaste

But the legal tree trimmer and the legal house clearner might want to charge you more — I make a point of hiring legal workers because they came here legally. I know that most people will hire the illegals because they can get ‘em cheaper. I don’t do that.

I hope you’re not having meowmix for dinner! *g*

We’ve had years and years to discuss this. Why are you blaming racists for the problems? I’d blame the Chamber of Commerce, myself.

May be hard to believe, but YES I have often spoken to the fact that I would pay more.

Yes, but the point is you didn’t, not really. Being a good tipper does not begin to explain how 12 million immigrants found the jobs and the wherewithal to stay in this country.

Do you live in a town that is 67% hispanic?

I balance the knowledge that my great-grandfather fought in the Confederate Army with the knowledge that one of my great great great grandmothers (yes, 3 greats), freed her slaves in the 1830s as it “wasn’t right for one person to hold another in involuntary servitude.”

“…asian immigrants came to work in the pineapple and sugar fields and eventually became a majority as I recall. Japanese/americans have long been at the top of the socio economic ladder in the islands I believe”

There’s no “majority” racial or ethnic group in Hawaii. You’re writing about people who were once immigrants, but who no longer are immigrants in the sense usually meant by most Americans. I wasn’t writing about them. By “immigrant” I was referring to anyone who wasn’t born here. Of course, that includes people who don’t fit the legal definition of immigrant.

Consequently, the people I was talking about are mostly not immigrants in a technical sense, but they are immigrants in a cultural sense– and I include myself in that category.

Bob in HI

As do I but the Chamber has made common cause with the racists and use folks like Lou Dobbs to spread the hate.

But that’s my point. The legal low wage earner may try to deman $18.00 per hour while the illegal will work fur less than minimum wage. Who benefits? And why do you think that illegal immigration has not been addressed?

But I don’t inquire as to visa status. I don’t care.

And the idea of changing the Constitution so that people born in the United States are no longer citizens…that is a horrendous idea. It flies in the face of every traditional value of this country. We are a nation of immigrants. In the past, we have been proud of that.

I hate seeing traditional American values being drowned under a sea of fear and xenophobia.

I really think we are all arguing on the same side. Most everyone here would say “look at who is making the donations to the political parties - specifically the Republican Party who fought so hard against a possibly rational Immigration Bill.”

It has not been addressed because the big corporations benefit from the cheap labor. As I said earlier, this will be yelled about during the campaign and will then sink into the background. If the will was there to fix the problem it would be fixed but no one really wants that.

I floated out ending the automatic citizenship…not of those already here, but going forward at some point. It really is an incentive for many who flock to this country.

“No majority”

Certainly no one ethnic group- although self described “ASIANS” make up 58
% of the population.

But, see, people have been asking. Now everyone throws their hands up and does the woe-is-me shimmy. And women get chained to delivery gurneys. It’s NUTS. We build fences when we should be finding ways to legally meld in the illegals we’ve got…… fences are not going to work. But, hey, we’ll still be talking this issue in another 40 years, I’m sure.

And as a Canadian, I am here to tell you that having two official languages in not such a bad thing. I think it enriches the national culture.

And it is true, that like the French in Quebec, there are parts of the US where Spanish was the common language before the English got there.

I’m not sure what you mean. I ain’t god. I do my best and as honestly as I can. I do not hire cheap workers just because I can, for example. Many folks do and don’t feel bad that the legal low wage earner is the one who gets hurt.

The GOP gets their base all fired up about this every 4 years and tries to use it against the Dems and the brown people who just might manage to vote - usually Democratic. They are not about to hurt their good buddies in the big corporations (like Del Monte) and so it will go on.

I have seen places where people preferred to speak German, Polish, Spanish and even Russian in their homes, right here in Texas. In cities such as Syracuse and Buffalo, I met folks who had no English capability at all. As far as I am concerned, national borders are but imaginary lines of convenience. We are all children of the same Earth and no man should be able to restrict our journey.

It’s not xenophobic as much as it is economic…..cheap, cheap labor. And don’t worry, we’ll probably run out of water before we drown in anything.

The first section of the 14th Amendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

It’s the Constitution.

It is my experience the some employers also expect to be able to pay legal immigrants lower wages that Canadian born - so I don’t think it’s just legal vs. illegal.

I know some employers that have lost excellent and highly skilled (legal!) workers in this way - when they quit and went to work for someone who valued their skills and didn’t care where they came from.

Exactly. And that includes those who hire cheap gardeners, toilet cleaners, hotel maids, kitchen staff. Nice people who simply do not get it continue to hire cheap labor because they can.

Or until low unemployment rates give them a dose of reality.

Seems to me like the push should be for well enforced employee pay, no matter who the employees might be or where they are from.

Until then nothing will change.

People have migrated around the world since the beginning of time and it’s not likely to stop any time soon. Look at the shuffle that is going on in Africa due to wars and such. Many of those people will never go home again - if they live long enough to do anything.
It’s just the nature of the life cycle. People came across the Bering Strait - or we wouldn’t be here.

dearie at 19 says–” If you were a minimally educated construction worker who saw your hourly rate go from $18.00/hour to $12.00/hour or to minimum wage…….well, just sayin’.”

who is no longer employed as a construction worker.

dearie at 34-”

Thank you, LindaR. It IS about the employers. I’m convinced that it the Chamber of Commerce who keeps this mess going.”

thomas j donahue, pres and ceo of the chamber is on the homeland security advisory committee’s secure borders and open doors advisory committee

http://www.dhs.gov/xinfoshare/.....08293.shtm

I had a great-grandma who as a small child lived through the burning of Atlanta. I attended her funeral in the late 1950s. Family stories about her were that her father died in battle and she and her siblings picked over the dead on the battleground because her family was poor.
link

Great points.

Got many illegal immigrants in Canada? A friend married a Canadian…..she couldn’t work until she gave up USA citizenship and swore allegiance to Canada. Another older couple tried to immigrate to Canada but were not accepted despite having assets. they just weren’t needed. It will be interresting to see how Canada handles it when THE USA maxes out on illegals immigrants and they move north!

forgot—my 153–

stephen payne is on that committee, too…….you know, the bush library fundraiser lobbyist video star whose company didn’t register with the justice department when dealing in foreign countries whose company filed bankruptcy recently but can’t find any more info on it felon?

I’m not sure what you mean. I ain’t god. I do my best and as honestly as I can.

What I am saying is that you can not divorce yourself from an economic system that makes extensive use of the labor of undocumented workers. You have in one way or another participated in and benefited from that system. You can not now say, “Well I pay people well” so I am free and clear of it. And by the way just what do you intend to do with 12 million people? Are you going to put them on a single bus and send them back to Mexico or wherever? To force these millions to leave our country would not only disrupt our economy but let’s be honest would be tantamount to genocide for many of them. Where seriously do you think they could go? How would they live? When we and our politicians turned a blind eye to this for decades, we assumed, like it or not, a responsibility for these people.

Actually I think it’s close to that, give or take a few percentage points. I live in southern Florida. I love the diversity here, even while I fight against the blatant racism of wealthy white folk who move down here from the midwest to retire on the beach. We have a large influx of Jamaican and Haitian immigrants as well, and we are richer for it. We are even beginning to see Korean and Vietnamese immigrants. Delightful mix!

I favor a comprehensive plan that brings people into the fold and a kick-em-in-the-balls plan that jumps all over employers who will continue to use illegal workers to continue to bring down wages. But, hey, that’s just me.

Yea for you. I don’t go downtown on weekends because gangs create problems. Oh well.

And the gang members are all probably anchor babies……legal as all get out!

I favor a comprehensive plan that brings people into the fold

Yes, but what does that mean?

My province brings in over 10,000 immigrants a year.

The thing about dual citizenship is nonsense. I have a number of friends - originally Americans - who now have dual Canadian/American citizenship and carry both passports.

The older couple probably couldn’t immigrate because they did not fit any of the categories - refugee, business class (ie they were not going to take their money and start a business in Canada) or family class (ie - for the purpose of re-uniting families when some already had landing status in Canada.

We probably have illegal immigrants - don’t know how many - but we don’t hyperventilate about it.

Oh, forgot about Provincial Nominee Program - for immigrants who have skills/ training in occupations where there is currently a labour shortage.

And you know that how exactly?

That requires lumping together Chinese, Japanese, Philippinos, Koreans, Vietnamese, and other Asians, and most people here don’t do that. I don’t have time to check your numbers right now, but I’m dubious about that “58%”. “Whites” are about 40% and Native Hawaiians are about 25%, so I don’t see how Asians can be more than 50%.

Bob in HI

Can I come to Canada and settle just because I want to?

No.

I think the USA started that way! Learn Spanish, Fern!

But it’s okay to do so in the USA? (which was my original point)

We must do more to see that the immigrant children are educated - whether legal or illegal. They then can move forward in life and contribute to the society. Many immigrants in California are doing quite well and own their own businesses. I think we tend to think of them as bending over picking lettuce but many have become quite wealthy.

And here are the details - http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp

A 9 year-old African American boy was shot and killed while riding his bike in my neighborhood by a legal Mexican gang member (who is 16), his sister, and a cousin, both under 15, a little over a year ago. My county is actually considered to be the 3rd largest area of gang activity in Florida now. But then there were 5 shootings involving white teenagers, 2 of whom killed both of their parents in the last 2 years. There were many other crimes involving white kids, black kids, and brown kids, all tragic. I have more fear of my white alcoholic neighbors who engage in constant domestic violence and own a collection of weapons for self-protection, they say. Crime is related to family disintegration, drug and alcohol abuse, and poverty, not nationality or skin color.

Bad things happen, bad people exist in all colors. I grew up in Appalachia but I moved to Florida after teaching in the South Bronx for several years and I was one of a handful of white people in the neighborhood. I felt completely safe and respected because I respected my neighbors and they had my back — same situation here.

Street sense tells me when to avoid dangerous areas, not by the color of the people’s skin nor the language they speak, but by the activities that precipitate violence, like unsupervised teens, drinking and drug use. I also deplore the socioeconomic conditions that force the kids ( black, white, brown, and all combinations) that I teach to live in 3rd world conditions in America while picking and processing the oranges and tomatoes that many consume daily.

Never said it was okay - just that some of the methods Americans are using to deal with the issue are not always humane or helpful.

We deport people too - but Canada is not the destination of choice in the same way that the US is for many. And there is half a continent between Mexico and Canada. Though we do bring in quite a few Mexicans as temporary workers and for citizenship-track employment contracts in high-demand occupations.

david is up-two threads up
http://firedoglake.com/2008/07...../#comments

America is like a teenager in extremis — note our idiot-in-chief! What troubles me is that we allow people to come in undocumented so that we can take advantage of their disadvantage. So wrong. But it is naive to assume that people can just move around the world as ‘immigrants’ without some order. I think many people on this thread were very naive…..their communities have probably not been touched yet. I wish them well. I got over being naive about it. And NO I would not hire cheap labor just because I could.

Fail.

All this debate over land that was stolen in the first place. NONE of it belongs to ANYONE currently engaged in the “argument”.
It never did.