It’s just the lessor of 2 evils. Sad
jo6pac

Aloha, Jo!

I’m used to being marginalized, being a gay democrat and all, but I’m getting pretty darned tired of it. We all know that whoever the next president is, he is going to have a helluva time with fixing the corruption and destruction of the Bush administration. If Barack is the one and he does exile the DFH faction of the Democratic party then good luck with getting anything meaningful accomplished whatsoever. And it could be the death knell for Democratic majorities and any chance of another Democratic presidency in a generation or so. After all these years of despondency and despair, I was really ready for “change you can believe in” but I admit I was snookered. Sad, sad, sad.

(no St. Ralph, you are not a “real” choice).

McKinney and the Green Party…? ;-)

But it seems that Obama has begun in a very subtle way the marginalization of the left within his Democratic party

With all due respect, that began in the late 60s and early 70s. It’s nothing new.

Edwards-Gore
This works for me.
jo6pac

The people are way ahead of the congress, the parties, and especially the media. Obama is listening to way too many DLC types who firmly believe their voters are white evangelical bigots who love GWB. I have told the candidate and I firmly believe that most of those who don’t vote are so disgusted with their choices that they see no point. I’m getting there myself.

I’ve spoken to avid earlyObama supporters, who went door to door for him in NH and they know the enthusiasm is waning and that the Clinton people are still ‘lukewarm’….the bloom is off the rose

I am so used to voting against Republicans rather than enthusiastically for Democrats…. time to constantly point out the consequences of a McSame administration just like every four years

Mmmmm… Sounds like a dream team.

I have become increasingly convinced that an Obama loss does not have to be the end of the world, especially if it abundantly clear that his loss resulted from his lurch to the right. A McCain presidency balanced by a pissed-off Democratic Congress might actually be sufficiently balanced as to be tolerable. And it would be a clear lesson to all future Democratic presidential candidates.

Obama was always everything to everybody. By being ambiguous one was allowed to see whatever they wished. He had an economic advisor from the Chicago School for dog’s sake! I would call that a clue! His voting record wasn’t even close to the “Most liberal in the Senate”.

But he really appreciated those small donations that got him to where he is. He is now a true believer in rootstrapping. And if any of those centrist things like FISA are “A dealbreaker, that’s OK”

I suspect the people who will be bombed in Iran and Iraq might have a different opinion.

ANd Afghanistan, Pakistan, Palestine, etc. etc.

balanced by a pissed-off Democratic Congress

Damn… Silly me. I thought that’s what we might have elected in 2006. I don’t think we’ll get much better in 2008, frankly. More maybe, but no guarantee of better. Please, everyone, keep your fingers crossed this Tuesday that we can dump John Barrow in the primary in GA 12, and then elect Regina Thomas in November. That’s one small step for better Democrats…

Posit this–Obama may be looking at things as if he is President and any President would want all the power he can get, legal or not, to protect America. Knowing of course that Osama tested both Clinton and Jr. in the first months of their beginning the job, Obama should be aware of that and until he is briefed in on all the dope of the wiretaps he wants to keep his options open. If we trust him to do the right thing, he will learn about it, decide how best to use it and what it takes to bring it in line with the Constitution and still have it work in our favor and then make the changes.

OK. I’ve said it way too many times around here. Obama is not the messiah. He will disappoint. Repeatedly,

That said, what I’ve been writing on the threads lately is that after the FISA sell out, I will vote for the local state rep and state senator. The rest of the ballot will be blank. It’s not a vote for McSame.

But . . .

If he’s counting on landslide numbers, he can count me out.

only problem is that he’s given me nothing—nada— for which I can justify trusting him.

lots of us were snookered – a few of us this week have referred to it as Hope-A-Dope. nothing wrong with that thing with feathers that sits in our souls

but just a few days later my glass is half full again as I am now hyper vigilant against any magical thinking regarding any mainstream Democrat. frankly we should have known better after all that hasn’t happened since 1/07.

The rest of the ballot will be blank.

Wasn’t that one way how they voided votes in FL, incomplete ballots? I’d be concerned about that, unless you know the rules in your state. If worst comes to worst, to keep your vote from being tossed, write in Gore or Edwards or Dodd or Kucinich or whomever you feel strongly about for President, and I guess you could write in your best friend for congresscritter…

“..any President would want all the power he can get, legal or not, to protect America.”

Have we learned nothing in the past seven years? They want power for power’s sake!

“If we trust him to do the right thing,…”

That is the rub – no politician should be trusted to do the right thing – they must be compelled by an adverserial counterweight.

When Carter ran toward the center, he got crushed. People will vote for an actual republican rather than a make believe one. If Obama keeps this bullshit up, I don’t think they’ll have to cheat that much to beat him, and they’re ready to cheat a lot. I don’t think he has any idea how dangerous his strategy actually is.

they must be compelled by an adverserial counterweight.

Well, judging by the present Congress, Obama would be. They kowtow to W, so they’d probably be very adversarial vis a vis Obama.

Being from the trades a bigger hammer is needed. This is a loosing problem until the money is taken out of elections and corp looses citizenship. I think until then we’re doomed.
jo6pac
Everything is on schedule, please move along.

I didn’t trust obama from the start (I wanted Kucinich); he was too busy showing the DC insiders that he was one of them. I couldn’t believe all of the people who were saying what a political saviour he will be. I think that many have now lost the fervor and will no longer be the willing foot soldiers going door to door or working in other ways. I think that he will need the money from the Hillary backers because I think that the net well will start to run dry. obama has worked hard to close the gap between himself and mccain in a year when obama should be crushing mccain. By the way, don’t be surprised to see a last minute switch at the rethug convention and we wind up with another real bush as the candidate.

Well, there’s always a floor-fight in Denver, and I really would not be sorry to see it. Edwards-Gore or Gore-Edwards anyone?

An order of each for this table, thanks!

Marion, I agree but the folks who don’t remember that far back probably don’t realize it.

I seriously doubt that the Civil Rights Act would pass today, I also don’t think that Nixon’s Clean Air Act would either. We have been so marginalized by the Obamas of politics that we get disappointed and even discouraged.

I guess that when I realized that the “audacity of hope” had turned into the “mendacity of Nope” it becomes a matter of SCOTUS and now I’m not so sure he would not appoint a Scalito-clone to prove his “bipartisan” credentials.

Up next: Michelle Obama does the next-gen Parents Music Research Council of what, Video Games so we get another National (centrist) Scold?

Not true they kowtow rr and then screwed bc. It’s all about me with this group, they don’t have to even think about us once they’re there. My congresscritter mccerny is just that.
jo6pac

Ok pups I have opened the Digg so go and Digg this Post by fine JoFish!

not sure that it invalidates the ballot. It might cause the “analysts” to wonder why anyone would show up and not vote for prez. but what the hell.

Obama would have to do a whole lot that is markedly progressive between now and Nov. 4 to make me bother to vote for him.

Not seeing it at this point in time.

but the folks who don’t remember that far back probably don’t realize it

Yeah. There’s not a chance in hell that the Civil Rights Act would pass today. Nixon would probably be considered a radical leftist. I remember where the Overton window USED to be…

After the first Tuesday in November comes the first Wednesday which is the day I start looking for the primary candidate I’ll support in 2012. I will vote for Obama but only because McCodger is much the worse evil.

Was it you who had the link to the all time telecom contribution totals for senators with photos of each of them alongside the numbers?

If so, do you have it handy? I thought I bookmarked it but failed to do so.

How I wish I could believe that.

But remember the 5% who voted for Nader? We (yes I was a Nader voter) have been told that it was our fault for letting the current Boob serve in the oval office. Democrats in power don’t get that Nader voters were the brave few who were voting to change the direction of the Democratic party. It didn’t work.

Instead, the more we ask for change, the more we get of the same. Now Obama will be crammed down our throats. If we vote for him, DLC Dems will gain power and say R lite is the people’s will.

If we don’t vote for Obama we will again be villified for causing the Democratic defeat. There is no self awareness in the Dem party that the DLCers are destroying the party and dragging the nation down with them.

whoops, the above question was for nahant.

firedogs,

you know I’m with ya and had planned to vote only downticket races

but life got in my way –

yesterday I watched then helped a neighbor get her two developmentally delayed boys in to the car. and I realized the only shot they have now for improved education, healthcare and family support is with a President Obama – so I’m gonna vote for him – but I’ll do it as a vote for that family

mendacity of Nope

Now that’s the shame I can belive in.

Thank you for this post.

But it seems that Obama has begun in a very subtle way the marginalization of the left within his Democratic party (and make no mistake, he’s the new 800 lb gorilla in the room)

It seems Marion highlighted this above, too. Yes, I think it has been going on … since the 60s. The left exploded the sentimentalized denying-egoic image Americans were carrying of our not-so-innocent Nation, exposed serious destructive mischief in the dark corridors of government and Pentagon and the messenger must be killed and the vendetta continues.

And Obama is just young enough I guess to be callow about the hard-won campaign that was fought against the Viet Nam War (so parallel to the insanity of the Bush wars) and the exploitation of executive authority. We challenged the naivete of the American majority about what the administration was doing with our tax dollars in our name abroad. And what lengths it would go to at home to cover up its illegal misconduct.

I totally understand that there is serious “gamesmanship” among all of our representatives. But as Frank Rich pointed out in a past editorial, Obama seriously “jumped the shark” on his FISA stance, and the collection of other little centrist surprises that came out fast and furiously.

This is a test for our party. Our official party “leadership” so afraid to rock the boat, willing to walk on eggshells until January and beyond in fear of faux-patriotism capsizing them one more time? Jonathan Turly was quoted on NPR about the tragedy of FISA. He said Congress’ behavior on that score was like answering the call to prevent future bank robberies by simply and horrifyingly taking off all the doors to the bank. Letting the money just be taken.

Obama won the primary with the help of the left. If he had won with say independents or centrist Dems and the youth vote that would be one thing. But he needed the progressives as a base. And that is bait and switch. And that is galling and foreshadows little statesmanship ahead. He does not seem to have any motivation to make peace with or show respect for the progressive activists. Amazing how that gesture would have helped with his wounding. We have had enough HUBRIS from our conservative leaders. To have it with our presumptive nominee pains.

I would be ready for a Plan B in Denver. We need a true leader. Joan Baez once said about her life, it would have been easier if she had had time to become a person before she became a “personality”. I have that fear about Barack. I see little “empathy” for us, his constituency … empathy from a sensitive person. He flexes a charming and smart personality, though. Oprah, did you help serve up a “person” or a “personality” to us?

Lately I keep remembering Edwards words at one point, maybe in one of the debates …. “I believe this to my very soul.” That kind of passion and strength I yearn for in a leader.

All the historic crap aside, we don’t need a historical figure in the Presidency we need a leader. I’m not seeing that in Obama, I think he’s a leader in the way that the DLC is all about “Leadership”, which is to say not much at all.

Sad but true. Very sad.

I always felt Obama was too slick and didn’t completely trust him. Well he has proved my gut feel right again….. Dam it I was hoping for a candidate who was really for a change in the direction our country was going… One who thought that no one was above the rule of law, and the Constitution WAS the way to keep our country and freedoms intact… What galls me most is his reputation as a Constitutional scholar… My ass he just wasted that for “Compromise” on the FISA Bullshit!

I live in Wisconsin where Russ Feingold comes from. All Presidential candidates are disappointments by comparison to him. Still, Senator Feingold is a Demmocrat and endorses Obama 100%. So, if he’s ok with Russ then I can feel good about voting for him too.

No need for all the hair shirts and gnashing of teeth. What the Obambi campaign and the DNC don’t get is…

He’s a loser.

Between the Electoral College slant towards racists and ‘consevative’s’ and the fact that Obambi is one lousy gotdamned campaigner this thing is already over. And puleeeze doan give me that, ‘He beat Hillary….’ crap.

He was selected by the DNC rules committee and anyone with a functioning brain knows same.

Obots…

Scram, nobody’s in the mood for more Kool-Aide.

Had enough to last me the rest of my life.
.

Let’s all do what we secretly want to do….

Support Hillary at the Convention. And if that don’t work write her in.

Good night.

Russ was trying to save face on the teevee. What else was he going to say?

I have it but it is on my laptop and I am on my sweeties PC as I just had to rebuild it… I will get for all..here it is: with my disclaimer for electronic communications…

WARNING: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, WITH CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current President, 69 members of the Senate and 293 members of the House of Representatives.

4th Amendment Hit Squad from http://www.bluetidalwave.com/2008/07/fisa-hit-list …

On Wednesday July 9, 2008 our U.S. Constitution, specifically the 4th amendment was officially torched by the U.S. government. The Democratic leadership in control of the 110th Congress lighted the definitive match to burn up every citizen’s civil liberties while a giddy unpopular President George Bush and his highly voter despised rubber stamp Republican caucus held the gas can in bravado glee.

The world would be a better place if Bush was as an effective leader of the globe as he is at whipping the Congressional Democrats in legislative battles.

Twenty One Senate Democrats voted to give final approval today to broadening the government’s spy powers and providing legal immunity for the phone companies that took part in the illegal Bush wiretapping program.

The other caution I have is about giving the Repubs. all this language for their own use. I think that was the discussion about “flipflop.” That was the serious indictment language in the Kerry race. To have the liar language poster here is not helpful, and probably overstates the case. Let alone the complaint could be framed in a different way. Just a thought; we do not have to support the other sides claims.

I would be ready for a Plan B in Denver. We need a true leader. Joan Baez once said about her life, it would have been easier if she had had time to become a person before she became a “personality”.

A wonderful quote.

Poncho… it’s not about voting for him, it’s about trusting him to do the right thing, and so far that record is pretty miserable and he’s already violated his oath to the Constitution with his vote and attitude on FISA. What’s next, the First Amendment or perhaps the 14th, 5th? Which is Amendment least convenient/understood by the American Low-Information voter and thus most likely to be marginalized/destroyed?

Spreading joy and sunshine again. There’s one thing for sure – the swiftboaters won’t have any work to do because the Dems are doing it for them.

You might have to scroll down on the page to find the hit list… but it is still there: http://www.bluetidalwave.com/2…..-list.html

Think about our soldiers, marines, sailors, and airman. Do you want someone that has a serious temper and vindictiveness problem or someone that may not have much in the way of principals, but is much less likely to start or continue a war just for the fun of it? I’m not happy about having to choose again between the lessor of two evils, but I’m still going to vote for Obama. As a veteran, I owe it to our serving military personnel.

Hmmm, ACitizen. I see from your Facebook profile you’re not ACitizen a person at all but a group. Do you speak en masse?

The rhetoric in here sounds like Chicago 68 all over again and we all know how that turned out. Besides, isn’t winning house and senate seats really the key to moving a progressive agenda forward?

The Ninth.

here is the list of his donors by sector:
Sector Total PACs Indivs
Agribusiness $1,044,241 $38,600 $1,005,641
Communic/Electronics $11,670,787 $72,901 $11,597,886
Construction $2,577,665 $21,750 $2,555,915
Defense $364,185 $17,000 $347,185
Energy/Nat Resource $1,399,206 $54,500 $1,344,706
Finance/Insur/RealEst $23,563,326 $207,150 $23,356,176
Health $7,882,910 $88,249 $7,794,661
Lawyers & Lobbyists $21,607,449 $75,803 $21,531,646
Transportation $832,376 $41,000 $791,376
Misc Business $15,831,688 $54,500 $15,777,188
Labor $410,367 $292,400 $117,967
Ideology/Single-Issue $3,962,010 $279,841 $3,682,169
Other $31,074,052 $6,000 $31,068,052

we do not have to support the other side’s claims

AMEN, Rev!

Ok, thank you.

Besides, isn’t winning house and senate seats really the key to moving a progressive agenda forward?

Exactly! Which is why I will reiterate my plea that you send positive thoughts down to the GA 12 on Tuesday as we try to primary John Barrow off the ballot in November and put up Regina Thomas, a Blue America Democrat.

Obama has always been a very centrist candidate. Anyone who dared point that out during the primaries was regularly mugged and flamed by his more avid supporters. He has *never* been “with the netroots.” Yeah, his campaign loved the money that was pouring in, but he has always been about riding on the center line. It was Edwards, of course, who started the health care conversation.

Edwards was the only one who got it-as in “Single Payer”. Anything else is BS.

Never thought I’d appreciate the Electoral College, but in solid Blue states, the choice isn’t Barry The Privacy Slayer vs McSame.

I live in CA. If I and 50,000 others vote for Glenda the Good Witch, McSame still loses the state’s Electoral College votes.

Third-party/Green voters who may be wary of voting for Barry after he sold out the Constitution for a fist full of Village are not low-info voters.

Treating them as though they can’t comprehend the Electoral College strikes me as a very poor outreach strategy.

Having said that, I hope progressive voters in swing states will hold their noses and vote for Barry against McSame.

And I hope Kansas voters will vote for Barry rather than Glenda. Too many property rights issues. :)

It was Edwards, of course, who started the health care conversation.

Ding! and the “caring” conversation and the “change” conversation…

but he could not out-raise or out-shine either of the other two because he was subjected to media conversations about his hair, his wealth and his pedigree.

It was Edwards, of course, who started the health care conversation.

Which is one of the main reasons I supported him in 2004 and 2008, and probably the main reason he was ignored by the MSM so assiduously both times. The insurance industry HATES Edwards.

Goodness – that was Tipper Gore’s role, you know the one you want as first lady. Just like Gore’s support for the CDA … sigh

How soon we forget.

So you are saying that we can’t criticize Senator Obama because the right wing will use it against him? They will use it anyway and if we don’t say it, they’ll find someone that they will pay to say it about him. Letting the other side’s tactics determine our own is exactly what created the FISA mess in Congress in the first place. Have you seen the New Yorker cover yet?

http://www.americablog.com/200…..-with.html

And this is from a liberal magazine! It is supposed to be making fun of the idiocy of the rumors about Obama from the right. Heck, they haven’t even started to swiftboat Obama yet. What I wonder is how does Obama plan on countering these kinds of attacks without the support of we DFHs in the blogosphere?

After Obama told us it was OK if FISA was a deal breaker and that we can go our own way because he still knows we will vote for him anyway rather than McCain, does he really think we’ll have his back? That’s not how it works friends, I’ve got your back, you’ve got mine. In the last couple of weeks he exposed his flank and there’s not much there to cover it for him anymore. Didn’t have to be this way.

I live in CA. If I and 50,000 others vote for Glenda the Good Witch, McSame still loses the state’s Electoral College votes.

Well, suppose 60,000 vote for Glenda? What kind of voting machines do you have? Diebold?

I’m convinced that is the only way. Lets get as many dems as we can in Congress. But until I see better dems in numbers, I’m voting Green at the city, county, and state levels (except governer).

Thanks, Marion.

LOL, Siun I think that Tipper was a bit more than horrified by what began as an honest effort on her part. Her effort was somewhat hijacked by the Fallwellistas IIRC in the late 80s (there was even a band in NC called TipperGhore that lampooned her efforts). Gore’s support for the CDA was a pure DLC position, and no he’s not ever been the perfect candidate (hell, he picked JoeLIEberman as his VP) but with age comes wisdom, and I doubt he or Tipper would go that way again.

He was right about it being a deal breaker.

It broke the deal for me.

There are leaders and then there are leaders. We don’t need anymore leaders who take the attitude that we should STFU and follow wherever they want to go and we don’t need leaders who just rush to the front of the crowd no matter which way it’s headed. What we need are leaders that will help us get to where we want to be and that sort is hard to find.

McSame so values his chances in CA that his campaign has one to three paid staffers for 33 million residents.

Conversely, if the voting machines are so rigged as to obviate that advantage, why should anyone bother to vote?

1,702 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Jo Fish:

Great post…I have been beatin’ the drums for a confrontation in the streets of Denver and start with trainin’ exercises in all the state capitols and major cities leadin’ up to the convention. Obama is not stupid and he is VERY ambitious so we have ta be willin ta walk the talk and convince ‘im that he not only needs our votes in November but our actions can cost ‘im the wingnnut “independents” that he seems hellbent ta win over. We have ta be willin’ to confront this man…I for one am not willin’ ta endure another Carter or Clinton Presidency…the Democratic Party will die unless we turn this guy around.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS IS THE LAST BATTLE OF OUR 150 YEAR OLD CIVIL WAR!!!

There was never anything in Obama’s voting record or his rhetoric than indicated populism. Why the surprise now?

We had a shot at the real deal, and decided to make ‘history.’

What with the record of the 2006 congress, we DFH’s best prepare for 8 more years of marginalization.

Edwards and Gore… “recovered” politicians to statesmen. The “sadder but wiser” men … too bad we can’t benefit from their hard-won experience, their readiness to say the truth to power. Will Obama coalition with the mensches … or the gamesmen and gameswomen?

MSM and corporate interest always a specter.

We “progressives” should have dropped the presidential race no later than super tuesday, imo..

We simply give up the progressive push when we discuss either Barack or Hillary and no others involved.

That said, I am glad we fought Obama on FISA… he lied to all of his supporters, whether they are upset about it or not, and failed to uphold his current oath of office.

ah, but we idolize him despite his limitations

The CDA was a brutal assault on the first amendment – only turned back thanks to superb work by the ACLU (my son was one of the young people used in their affidavits – full disclosure). And Tipper was quite serious about all that wholesomeness as was Lieberman … let’s open our eyes to the full picture rather than simply go after Obama … perhaps then we’ll realize this is a long haul, not a sprint and that small victories at times matter a lot … like not letting McCain get into the White House.

I had no idea McThuselah was expending that much effort in your fine state! /snark No doubt you’re perfectly safe. I get a bit antsy, however, when I hear Democrats from my state saying similar things. Down here we do have Diebold machines, and razor thin Democratic wins, if we win at all.

As you will recall I was the one who predicted that Obama would compromise on abortion rights. (Just pause for a moment and think about what a huge issue that is for liberals!).

My prediction on Obama’s next “compromise”:

Gay rights.

I predict this will happen by August 1.

What is the term “the DFH Left” would someone please explain this for me.

DFH means “dirty fucking hippy”.

What’s with Planned Parenthood endorsing him this week, apparently? Didn’t they have anything to say about his stance on prohibiting late term abortions for psychological reasons?

Already happened in California when he refused to be photographed with a gay candidate who had actually raised money for the campaign

DFH stands for Dirty F**cking Hippy, which probably will make the rest clear!

Thank YOU! Sorry to be out of the loop on that one

crap! In 2008, I hope Dems and progressives in swing/close states turn out to vote for Barry The Privacy Slayer and hand McSame his sorry wrinkled ass.

And in 2010, I hope the same Dems/progresives turn out to hand those who bow and scrape to Barry’s corporatist Masters from the Chicago Cult their sorry spotty wrinkled asses.

Man, I would give anything for a Gore/Edwards to sprout out of the convention from a floor fight. But the only way to force a floor fight would be to make it about Clinton, and I don’t know that, at this point, that gains much ground. Certainly at the proposition’s arguable best, not enough to warrant the discord it would cause; not even close. Clinton would be more of the same, slightly better or slightly worse depending on your viewpoint, but effectively the same problem. No, Obama is the guy; he’s all ours now.

The interesting thing is, if you read closely, you could see this shit coming a mile a way. He was undefined, a blank slate that too many people were imprinting their own wishes, hopes and dreams on; but that was them, not him. dday at Digby did a piece back in early May that was a harbinger to those who had not already had concerns, if not doubts, as to who and what Obama really was. It is a fascinating read and really delves into your part of the post about the fact that this is Obama’s party now. I suggest taking a look for all those who did not see it originally.

NARAL also has some explaining to do

I’m with you on the marathon, Siun. We can’t take even 1 day of a McCain administration…we’d collapse as a republic.

There were a lot of travesties in the Clinton years that have lessened our postions as progressives and yes, Gore was a part of them. The DMCA was another such bill… but to give the devil his due, I don’t think he’s the same guy who sat at the Right hand of Bill eight years ago.

I’ll be voting for Obama, but you know as someone said up-thread he needs to understand that for us to have his back, he’s got to have ours. Right now, I think he feels electorally invulnerable and perhaps he is, but a floor-fight or some other demonstrations in Denver to show him he’s not might do everyone (including him) some good.

Actually, it was Hillary Clinton that started the healthcare conversation, and it was long before Edwards was ever even known.

Why? So she can bomb Iran?

Clinton is not any improvement over Obama: they’re both flawed politicians, just not flawed in the same way.

I’m not going to help break the Democratic party into little pieces, in a year where winning is actually important.

thank you – agreed

neither Gore nor Edwards said a peep while they gutted the Fourth.

I hold JRE in high regard – but they and Feingold are covering some ass – it’s what they do, but disappointing nonetheless

Planned Parenthood Action Fund (the political wing, separate from the one that funds women’s health clinics) and NARAL also both endorsed “Short Ride” Joe Lieberman too. We had a long discussion here about why they do that and I think the consensus was that it was good for fundraising and most of their contributors don’t pay enough attention to know the difference.

So it’s hard to explain why some pro choice organizations endorse horrible candidates but in any case you can’t conclude from their endorsements whether a given candidate is actually going to be reliably pro choice.

I see at least three areas that gave more money than telecom. Look at real estate, for one.

neither Gore nor Edwards said a peep while they gutted the Fourth.

Very Good Point. I wonder why… or perhaps they were not asked/figured that Obama would keep his word?

Love to ask either/both of them that now.

Thanks cbl2 – we seem to be very good at forgetting the clay feet of our idols …

Gore/Edwards ’08

I don’t blame him for being careful about who he is photographed with because I understand how powerful photographs are in political ads. But I’m predicting he will explicitly throw the GLBT community under the bus, even more explicitly than he did the pro choice movement, because he knows they have nowhere else to go.

BTW, the Green party is starting to sound pretty good, especially without Ralphie.

Connecticut NARAL endorsed Ned Lamont

It’s because they are politicians. That’s what they do. People seem to think that Gore and Edwards are saints and I supported both of them. They are not – politicians who do what they think needs to be done and you can bet that if either were the nominee they would be running to the center and the caterwauling would be heard round the world.

More than just real estate folks
Lawyers & Lobbyists $21,607,449 $75,803 $21,531,646 now that is a hunk of change from the Lawyers and Lobbyists!

FYI, new Siun upstairs.

save for the nominee’s

Feingold?? Do you mean Feinstein? Because Feingold was a standup dude all the way on FISA.

or better yet …

FISA/Osama ’08

we’re f*cked anyways …

OK, but IIRC the national organization endorsed Short Ride, and I know Planned Parenthood Action Fund did.

Not really…

They liked The Last Honest Man too.

They are ‘conservative’ shills.

Not progressive, never were never will be.

I can’t help but wonder (and I have postulated this here before) if McCain is their “placeholder” candidate while they get ready for 2012, rebuild the brand (they’re pretty good at that) and aggressively work to do to Obama what they did to Carter, make him a one-termer.

The 1600 Crew has already conclusively shown that winning Congress is immaterial, they have effectively neutered the whole institution so winning there is not a priority. But the presidency…now that it’s been raised to almost “imperial” heights, it’s worth having.

Expect a full-on assualt on the courts by the next republican administration if it occurs in the next decade, led by their Unitary Executive and Scalito, Thomas and Roberts.

BTW, the Green party is starting to sound pretty good, especially without Ralphie.

Yep. And some of the local candidates here are very qualified, too. I vote Green in a place where winning is possible.

Off topic, but will affect our nation:

The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System announced Sunday that it has granted the Federal Reserve Bank of New York the authority to lend to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should such lending prove necessary. Any lending would be at the primary credit rate and collateralized by U.S. government and federal agency securities. This authorization is intended to supplement the Treasury’s existing lending authority and to help ensure the ability of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to promote the availability of home mortgage credit during a period of stress in financial markets.

The next president is going to be blamed for “Big Shitpile”, as atrios calls it. I think McCain 2008 doesn’t sound that bad. I don’t think an attack on Iran is a realistic option, Siun. The scariest thing is the supreme court.

Didn’t McCain say he would only serve one term? Anyway, after four years of Big Shitpile I think we may be ready for a real Democrat, even if he has too nice of hair.

BTW, the Green party is starting to sound pretty good, especially without Ralphie.

Well, if you’re a 9/11 conspiracy believer you’ve got your ideal nominee in Cynthia McKinney. Georgia is proud to give you both Cynthia McKinney and Bob Barr. I think it’s the heat…

Please read the new Siun and the links.

forgot the freakin snark key:

save for the nominee’s
/s

agreed, he was a stand up guy

was just saying he finessed BO’s deceit a little too much for my taste

That’s very funny. It’s something, but I don’t know what. It’s going to be fun to watch them run.

I wish I could share you feelings about this but that’s the crux of the problem I’m having with Obama. I just don’t see that it’s an automatic “better”. The economy is about to collapse completely, Iraq and Afghanistan are imploding, and whoever the next president is, he’s going to be at the starting gate with a lot working against him. I don’t trust that Obama will be able to handle this and maintain the integrity of the party.

All we need is another 4 years of Bankruptcy bills, DOMA, Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell, Welfare reform like Bill Clinton brought us and that will be the end of progressive government in America for a good long while. I live in a swing state and I know my vote will be important come November. What I’m having trouble with is figuring out how it will promote anything that I believe in or if it just might further set back the cause another generation or two, the way my support for Clinton did.

That is not what I’m arguing … solely our selective choice of targets for no clay feet and lack of concern for feeding right wing narratives since I see a McCain victory as more dangerous to the people who have no vote in all this but suffer most directly the consequences.

Ooops, comments looked like Red State. Wasn’t sure where I was. Amazing, a politician adjusting his position’s to win an election. Who would have thunk?

I’m not interested in trusting anyone in government. We operate under the rule of law, not men. At least we did when we were a real nation instead of a herd of cowering peasants.

Actually, Bob Barr will probably wind up helping Georgia be competitive. For this I give thanks. Anything else about either one of them, not so much…

There is one HUGE reason that cannot be allowed to happen. SCOTUS. Even one term of McCain will irreversibly damn this country to 30 years of infinitely worse court action than we have seen in the last eight. Must never be allowed to happen.

Wow.

OK, but it’s not like they’re going to win or anything. It would just be a protest vote.

That’s something like Borowitz the other day – his headline was “Democrats accuse Obama of trying to win.”

yes they did. thought the CT NARAL head did the right thing

and let’s not forget Sierra Club and Human Rights Campaign did the wrong thing as well

SCOTUS. See my comment at 120, that is why.

I think Barr has a fairly good mind but McK is another story. Not too sure about her.

From Digby:

The old leadership of the Party has become ossified, and Obama’s takeover is an extension of the Dean movement, only on less explicitly ideological terms.

Thanks. What an astute one that Digby is. Fascinating and kinda frightening perspective on it all.

So the Obama “brand” … his own brand. Later for you, party. Well, when Oprah joined the fray … media frenzy …

This article was enlightening on what Obama’s book priorities have been:

http://papercuts.blogs.nytimes…..s-reading/

I’m not so sure McCain’s picks would be that bad. People say he really hates the snake handlers, and if he only intends to serve one term I can see him sticking it to them really good. Putting reliable snake handlers on the court is very very important to them and I think McCain would really love royally pissing them off.

Connecticut voters also elected Senator ‘Short Ride’ for which they got their state renamed the ‘NutBall State’.

For some of the low-info folk upstream…

Me?

I’m a progressive Democrat and I’m not a happy camper. You want to vote for Obambi? Go ahead that’s your right as a U.S. citizen. So far…

But as far as what I think and what I advocate….

You can disagree or not. I’m not that important…jes one individual. But as soon as you think you’ve got some right to tell ME what to do…

Think again.

I’ve been agitating and attacking Obambi for over a year. He’s the worst candidate the Dems have picked since the 19th century and now that many, many more people are of that or a similar opinion I can comment here without getting banned which I have been or threatened with by Kos…Bowers and Marshall…and yeah ‘Big Tent Democrat’ got on my case too.

I could care less.

Shakespeare, as always, got it right. ‘The truth will out.’

I never asked for Obambi.

And I’ll cut off my little finger before I vote for some gutless, empty suit WHO THINKS REAGAN WAS A GREAT PRESIDENT.

I urge anyone here to consider their support for a guy who is not, in fact….

Any sort of Democrat at all.

I think McCain would really love royally pissing them off

That’s not a crap shoot I’m willing to take.

the new york times link is the wrong one… looking for article on Obama’s past reading … will continue to look for it…sorry…

SCOTUS, SCROTUS!

I understand. I was saying pretty much the same thing in 2000. But I’m getting tired of voting for the lesser of two evils.

Tom Traubert, you’re givin me yer Blues, man. (just wanted to say that)

Two people with much more “centrist” Senate voting records than Obama are Al Gore and John Edwards.

Obama has a decent voting record, and an excellent record at getting things done. He has a great life story of accomplishment and great “street smarts.” He’s probably the best Dem nominee I’ve ever been able to vote for (first eligile election for me was Clinton).

And what are you basing your assumption that Obama will nominate progressive or even centrist judges to the Supreme Court? His standard operating procedure is to make peace and meet in the middle — the only nominees that will be acceptable to the rightwing Democratic congress will be more along the lines of O’Connor, or maybe even Roberts and Alito. I can’t see him nominating another Ginsberg under any circumstances. The Supreme Court argument is one I’ve weighed for a long time and I’m not convinced because Obama is too much of a unknown quantity.

I was a big Obama supporter and voted for him back in the FL primary when Clinton won by an overwhelming majority. But the stances he is taking now on so many things that are important to me are making me have second thoughts. And the fact that he is counting on my vote despite the fact that I disagree with him on education, labor issues, healthcare, faith-based initiatives, FISA, abortion, the death penalty. . . .

These are the bedrock positions of why I am a democrat and if that means I’m supposed to give up a lifetime of hard work and belief in progressive changes on these very issues then what’s the point of being a democrat at all?

“”[P]erhaps the greatest misconception about Barack Obama is that he is some sort of anti-establishment revolutionary. Rather, every stage of his political career has been marked by an eagerness to accommodate himself to existing institutions rather than tear them down or replace them….he has always played politics by the rules as they exist, not as he would like them to exist. He runs as an outsider, but he has succeeded by mastering the inside game.”—from http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..12429.html

Incredible cover. I live in CA and yes, we have the diebold crap in SD(AND I did an ‘audit, had documentation of how the ‘Use Procedures’ were not followed,had witnesses(including an attorney), submitted such to SOS Bowen and NOTHING happened) but anyone in Gerogia who thinks they have a good system or SOS is smoking some stuff I wish I had.

Personally, I’m real tired of the SCOTUS argument as a rationale for voting for Obama; it’s the SENATE who confirms SCOTUS nominees and it’s the Congress that needs wholesale change; so send the money to those candidates for Congress and State office you think will be effective in bringing about change. But I’ll mention this; with the bailout of Freddie and Fannie, you are watching the ‘leaders’ of this nation bankrupt you.

Heh. heh. Wasted and wounded.

I’m not slamming Obama’s record. I’m just saying, he’s *been* a centrist and people who considered him a liberal’s dream were projecting. When compared to the alternative, I’ll be voting Dem again this year. Though I’m losing heart with the Democratic Party as a whole.

SCOTUS, SCROTUS..

This argument is so tired, so bogus.

The fight for the Supreme Court is over folks. With Obambi’s help Roberts and Alito are now on board and the court is cranking our decision after decision just for their pals in corporatist America.

McSame & Co. have no intention of riling up the DFHs re: Roe vs. Wade. Things are jes right.

Now Obambi and his Federalist pals like them some Douglas Kmeic or maybe you here at FDL would like you some Joey the Liarman as one of the Supremes.

If you all were paying attention to who hangs out with who you’d know about the risk this represents. But no….

It’s the march of the lemmings: ‘We can’t let McSame in he’ll screw up the SCOTUS!’

Bah….

Wake up kids. Just like on every other issue you can’t tell what Obambi is gonna do.

That argument is just dumb.

I know McCain. Literally have met him and been around him many times. I have seen the jerk in action, up close and personal, ever since he came here to Arizona. If you buy into that centrist crap you are a flat out fool. The ONLY thing McCain cares about is himself and he will sell off the SCoTUS nominations in a heartbeat to be elected. In fact, I guarantee you he already has done so, or the religious right would not be even as close as they are to him. You are not thinking clearly if you think McCain will not make far worse picks for the court. Obama may not make great ones, but they will be a light year better than McCain’s. I cannot emphasize this enough.

I am just now reading Obama’s memoir, “Dreams From My Father.” His centrist pragmatism is right there, you see where it comes from and why, and why he’ll stick with it. I’m over my snit about his centrism. I want him elected. I want effectiveness. Let’s get him in, and drop our illusions about the “perfect” progressive candidate.

About FISA – when that acronym first appeared in the news, I remember being told that it did not prevent surveillance and wiretapping — it is actually a kind of documentation procedure that is perfectly OK if retroactive. In fact FISA approval was usually requested after the fact, and was always given.

So if FISA never prevented wiretapping, and will never prevent wiretapping, was it ever anything but a symbolic protection of 4th Amendment rights?

As Flannery O’Connor said to Mary McCarthy, who remarked that the Eucharist was a good symbol: “Well, if it’s a symbol, to hell with it.”

You clearly have not a clue in the world about what FISA is, and should not be informing others with this blatantly bogus bunk. Jeebus.

Enlightening article about Barack’s reading preparation in salon.com (not NYTimes posted above, sorry) by Laura Miller:

http://www.salon.com/books/fea…..ama_books/

ACitizen, you need to grow up and you need to provide links to people or points, even when you slur names and arguments like a drunken buffoon.

/rant

We have a ‘war on drugs’ that has led to the largest prison population on earth, a new ‘industry’ of imprisoning people and yet no one (McInane or Obama) REALLY talks of a ‘war on energy dependency:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/…..8;refer=us

Obama and Clinton were always too centrist for me. Edwards was my boyfriend, but he got smart and progressive too late.

I’m old enough to remember the ’60s and remember the feeling that our Democrats had sold us out — so, when Nixon promised to get us out of Vietnam, enough believed him, and not Democrats who had already screwed their base.

Then, of course, Nixon was elected, went back on his promise, and only Watergate stopped his grab for power.

Let’s see- Civil Rights, Medicare, Great Society, liberal SCOTUS…

I’d give my left nut for the kind of Democrats we had in the 60s.

His name is Legion perhaps?

He did that long ago when he had Donnie McClurkin headlining a fundraiser for him last year.

As for PP and NARAL, essentially they want to be on the winning team no matter what. And frankly if the candidate is squishy on abortion, more’s the better. You see, they can’t continue to exist and raise gobs of money if choice ever really becomes settled. They need controversy in order to self-perpetuate.

The whole thing, top to bottom makes me want to barf.

If I remember correctly the senate gets to vote on all Supreme Court Justices, I am still wondering how we got Scalia, Roberts, Thomas, Alito, after all we still had some Democrats in the Senate. If they can’t stop the nominations with a majority, how are they gonna stop Obama’s right of center nominations.

sounds like Big Corporate Green: stumps equal fundraising.

hence my support for Sea Shepherd, Center For Biological Diversity, and Earth First!

Ironic that once FDL tasted “power” they booted TRex as too controversial. Now they’re posting mindless crap like this. Jesus Christ isn’t running for president and he never will. Get a clue.

And bye.

IIRC, Barry The Privacy Slayer supported cloture for both of Shrub’s Supremes.

Barry: same as the Village ever was

indeedy.

For some reason, the dems don’t know how to count up to 40 to stop bad things from happening. Hapless Harry isn’t exactly a progressive nor does he pretend to be—except when he showed up at the first Yearly Kos.

They all pander. The question is what are they willing to give up or sell? And what does it get them?

time to read some kind of trashy novel. I can’t take the betrayal of politics any more tonight.

Night all—whoever’s left lurking on this thread.

‘Night Deb

So OK, likely I’m in the same boat as zillions of Americans.

I just clearly remember discussion in print about what FISA was the first time this vote came around maybe 2 years ago, and that whenever FISA approval for wiretapping was sought after the fact, it was always granted.

That sounds awfully like a symbolic fig leaf to me.

Do any commenters here follow Al Giordano at The Field?

http://narcosphere.narconews.c…..didnt-fall

He’s had a refreshing take on FISA, backed up by his Latin American experience and the “War On Drugs” resistor news at Narconews.com. It’s been the kind of education on FISA and th 4th Amendment not to be had at the Lake, sad to say.

I especially recommend

http://narcosphere.narconews.c…..-the-field

for background on how the US Govt walks around FISA and the 4th Amendment saying ‘nyahnyah’ just because it can.

… they can’t continue to exist and raise gobs of money if choice ever really becomes settled. They need controversy in order to self-perpetuate.

Bingo.

Refering to Obama, Jesse Jackson said he wanted to “cut his nuts off”. I agree with you Jesse, but you’re assuming that Obama actually “has a pair”.

A floor fight in Denver is the only way this DFH will vote for the Dem come November.

What will tell the tale is how Obama handles the outcry over this. His ‘had to do something’ statement is just a further insult. He really needs to do something that shows he cares about having our support.

Madness.

Put me down for a floor fight. Gore-Edwards sounds fabulous to me.

And the choice between the “Lesser of Two-Evils” always produces ______. Let’s have a drum roll^~^~^~^ Yes, it is “LIVE” reversed. Makes so much sense to me that I’m “Wasting” my vote on Nader. I know. Gore/Kerry/Obama will lose in 2008, as all Dems will if Nader runs. We’ll applaud Barr running of course…And don’t forget Perot costing Chimp’s Daddy an election…Ralph, go to your room!

Last time I said this same thing, I was viciously attacked here (different thread) by another member!

I agree your take, RevDeb!

‘Spreading joy and sunshine again.’–sez Twain against A-Citizen.

Wasn’t the last time we heard this meme with Reagan’s peurile ‘morning in America’ crap? I suppose that among some FDL readers, attacking A-Citizen is a fun game. But A-Citizen always has a pointed take on things, agree or not with him. Better far than some fuzzy, wooly sloganneering, methinks.