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	<title>Comments on: Market Collapse Does Not Indicate Executives Failed</title>
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		<title>By: MaryRacine</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1539557</link>
		<dc:creator>MaryRacine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1539557</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;When I try to explain to people why the “war on some people who use certain kinds of drugs” is so wrong, I use the Enron analogy.  If you are dealing drugs they can arrest your mother or girlfriend for taking a phone message at your house.  When an Enron or Bears &amp; Stern goes down, maybe we see a top executive or two take a perp walk.  If we were serious about white collar crime the way we are about drugs - the secretaries, mailroom guys and IT folks would all be in the slammer.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And from taking sociology courses in the topic (and been in the working world, including a great deal of temping, for a decade or two), people at an underhanded organization generally know what’s going on.  There shouldn’t be too much of a presumption of innocence.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;More comparisons of drug forfeiture laws and government bailout policies is a fruitful line of inquiry.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I try to explain to people why the “war on some people who use certain kinds of drugs” is so wrong, I use the Enron analogy.  If you are dealing drugs they can arrest your mother or girlfriend for taking a phone message at your house.  When an Enron or Bears &amp; Stern goes down, maybe we see a top executive or two take a perp walk.  If we were serious about white collar crime the way we are about drugs &#8211; the secretaries, mailroom guys and IT folks would all be in the slammer.</p>
<p>And from taking sociology courses in the topic (and been in the working world, including a great deal of temping, for a decade or two), people at an underhanded organization generally know what’s going on.  There shouldn’t be too much of a presumption of innocence.  </p>
<p>More comparisons of drug forfeiture laws and government bailout policies is a fruitful line of inquiry.</p>
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		<title>By: dugsdale</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1539475</link>
		<dc:creator>dugsdale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:17:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;I like Spocko’s post, above. It squares with a sad truth: that we libs/progressives/whatevers are seriously outgunned in the ideas marketplace by the likes of AEI and all the other lavishly funded right-wing PR operations (oh, excuse me, “think tanks”) that keep pushing right-wing framing out there, for lazy, shiftless reporters (oh, excuse me, “reporters” with quotes) to pick up on. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I have an impression of a flood-tide of well-organized position papers, PR feeds, “news” items, video feeds, etc., all with right-wing framing, being pumped relentlessly into the news stream by these outfits, and on “our” side, I see nothing remotely comparable.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I had some hope with the formation of the Rockridge Institute, but they slipped under the surface and sank recently and that’s kind of it as far as progressive lobbying groups, at least that I’m aware of.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What we need is a Scaife of our own: a filthy rich progressive who’ll bankroll a think tank of lefty “scholars” who can write, persuade, engage, and get the message out. For starters, I’d nominate Spocko and Cliff Schecter as key “scholars” because they both have given lots of thought to framing and communications isues.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Unfortunately, though, I’m not a Scaife. (Look, here I am contributing to a stone-cold thread, that’s how sharp I am!)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like Spocko’s post, above. It squares with a sad truth: that we libs/progressives/whatevers are seriously outgunned in the ideas marketplace by the likes of AEI and all the other lavishly funded right-wing PR operations (oh, excuse me, “think tanks”) that keep pushing right-wing framing out there, for lazy, shiftless reporters (oh, excuse me, “reporters” with quotes) to pick up on. </p>
<p>I have an impression of a flood-tide of well-organized position papers, PR feeds, “news” items, video feeds, etc., all with right-wing framing, being pumped relentlessly into the news stream by these outfits, and on “our” side, I see nothing remotely comparable.</p>
<p>I had some hope with the formation of the Rockridge Institute, but they slipped under the surface and sank recently and that’s kind of it as far as progressive lobbying groups, at least that I’m aware of.</p>
<p>What we need is a Scaife of our own: a filthy rich progressive who’ll bankroll a think tank of lefty “scholars” who can write, persuade, engage, and get the message out. For starters, I’d nominate Spocko and Cliff Schecter as key “scholars” because they both have given lots of thought to framing and communications isues.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, though, I’m not a Scaife. (Look, here I am contributing to a stone-cold thread, that’s how sharp I am!)</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538958</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:05:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538958</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Let me describe what I’m seeing from a different perspective: the Bushies and their Wall Street allies are jerking the markets around to make money off them as all criminals generally do. There is a loud wail about how the economy is going to crash disastrously. That loud wail does not explain WHY they should fail, just that they probably will. The loud wail about Freddy &amp; Fanny don’t explain WHY they should fail, just that they likely will. The loud wail is a cover story for the very real manipulations forcing difficulties on people.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The timing of the government intervention of Indymac bank is somewhat similar. It’s not accidental. It’s not a natural response of problems. It’s intentional political intervention at a specific time to achieve a specific goal.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Did Chuck Schumer’s letter cause Indymac to fail? No. They’ve been sinking ever since they began to make bad loans, just like all the other stupid lenders.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So, what’s next?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I expect the Housing Aid bill to be passed by the House and Bush to sign it and the housing market to slowly recover over a period of a couple of years. The scum who have used it to make money have put a hell of a lot of people through the wringer and stolen all their pennies. Bush smirks.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The next major Bush problem is oil prices. His regulator has stood by and watched as the oil prices have been jacked up by the ICE market and Bush smirks.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The upcoming oil markets regulation bill (whatever it’s name) will face some opposition from House &amp; Senate Republicans, particularly in the senate where not all are up for reelection this year. It’s going to be hard for House Republicans to vote against a bill which might bring gasoline prices down. But, some will make an effort. In the senate there were a bunch of Republicans who simply didn’t show up or refused to vote against the Housing bill, so I suspect they will also show opposition to the bill. Can they rustle up enough R votes to stop it? I doubt it, but their stunt (not voting on Housing) shows they’re certainly willing to pass the buck to the House reps and let them take the heat. Nice bunch of thugs.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You can bet Bush and his oil market thugs will pull out the stops to take advantage while they can. If the Fanny &amp; Freddy thing is an indicator they’ll be doing some pretty despicable things with regards to oil just as the Dem regulatory bill comes up for a vote.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thing is these Republicans who *might* side with Bush aren’t going to get anything for that loyalty. Bush policy is to use and stab in the back anybody who might be handy. Dems can campaign with recent behavior to let the public know just whose side those Repubs are on (Dubya’s).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Finally, it’s gonna take time to be rid of Bush and the effects of his horrendous administration (and those who have died are lost forever). In the mean time the ride is gonna be bumpy and he’s gonna make more people suffer for his own benefit (and that of his friends). All we can do is fight fight fight and push the Congressional Repubs away from Bush to divide &amp; conquer and for the nation’s good and for the good of a 2-party system. Minimizing Bush is critical despite the wild demonstrations he and his friends can make (see Freddy &amp; Fanny). There’s just not much we can do about those things.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Bush is a weenie and he’s gonna go down hard. It’s just gonna take some time.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me describe what I’m seeing from a different perspective: the Bushies and their Wall Street allies are jerking the markets around to make money off them as all criminals generally do. There is a loud wail about how the economy is going to crash disastrously. That loud wail does not explain WHY they should fail, just that they probably will. The loud wail about Freddy &amp; Fanny don’t explain WHY they should fail, just that they likely will. The loud wail is a cover story for the very real manipulations forcing difficulties on people.</p>
<p>The timing of the government intervention of Indymac bank is somewhat similar. It’s not accidental. It’s not a natural response of problems. It’s intentional political intervention at a specific time to achieve a specific goal.</p>
<p>Did Chuck Schumer’s letter cause Indymac to fail? No. They’ve been sinking ever since they began to make bad loans, just like all the other stupid lenders.</p>
<p>So, what’s next?</p>
<p>I expect the Housing Aid bill to be passed by the House and Bush to sign it and the housing market to slowly recover over a period of a couple of years. The scum who have used it to make money have put a hell of a lot of people through the wringer and stolen all their pennies. Bush smirks.</p>
<p>The next major Bush problem is oil prices. His regulator has stood by and watched as the oil prices have been jacked up by the ICE market and Bush smirks.</p>
<p>The upcoming oil markets regulation bill (whatever it’s name) will face some opposition from House &amp; Senate Republicans, particularly in the senate where not all are up for reelection this year. It’s going to be hard for House Republicans to vote against a bill which might bring gasoline prices down. But, some will make an effort. In the senate there were a bunch of Republicans who simply didn’t show up or refused to vote against the Housing bill, so I suspect they will also show opposition to the bill. Can they rustle up enough R votes to stop it? I doubt it, but their stunt (not voting on Housing) shows they’re certainly willing to pass the buck to the House reps and let them take the heat. Nice bunch of thugs.</p>
<p>You can bet Bush and his oil market thugs will pull out the stops to take advantage while they can. If the Fanny &amp; Freddy thing is an indicator they’ll be doing some pretty despicable things with regards to oil just as the Dem regulatory bill comes up for a vote.</p>
<p>Thing is these Republicans who *might* side with Bush aren’t going to get anything for that loyalty. Bush policy is to use and stab in the back anybody who might be handy. Dems can campaign with recent behavior to let the public know just whose side those Repubs are on (Dubya’s).</p>
<p>Finally, it’s gonna take time to be rid of Bush and the effects of his horrendous administration (and those who have died are lost forever). In the mean time the ride is gonna be bumpy and he’s gonna make more people suffer for his own benefit (and that of his friends). All we can do is fight fight fight and push the Congressional Repubs away from Bush to divide &amp; conquer and for the nation’s good and for the good of a 2-party system. Minimizing Bush is critical despite the wild demonstrations he and his friends can make (see Freddy &amp; Fanny). There’s just not much we can do about those things.</p>
<p>Bush is a weenie and he’s gonna go down hard. It’s just gonna take some time.</p>
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		<title>By: wesgpc</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538919</link>
		<dc:creator>wesgpc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 02:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538919</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Keynes said that bankers do not fear bank failures, as long as they all fail in the same way at the same time. What they fear most is failing in a way different from their peers.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As an economist, if I were fealing all free market magicky, I would be obliged to say that if correct incentives were in place, they woudl appear spontaneously with the property rights and free market magic, and there would be a crtiical mass of bankers who would strive to succeed and increase prosperity in ways uniquely different from their peers. But Keynes was smarter and knew more than me, and he was very doubtful about that, at least without a lot gummint regulation. When they can do anything at all, such a banker beast is mythical and doesn’t exist -sort of like a Machiavellian prince who is hated and not feared. They bite the dust so fast, for all practical purposes they are nonexistent.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keynes said that bankers do not fear bank failures, as long as they all fail in the same way at the same time. What they fear most is failing in a way different from their peers.</p>
<p>As an economist, if I were fealing all free market magicky, I would be obliged to say that if correct incentives were in place, they woudl appear spontaneously with the property rights and free market magic, and there would be a crtiical mass of bankers who would strive to succeed and increase prosperity in ways uniquely different from their peers. But Keynes was smarter and knew more than me, and he was very doubtful about that, at least without a lot gummint regulation. When they can do anything at all, such a banker beast is mythical and doesn’t exist -sort of like a Machiavellian prince who is hated and not feared. They bite the dust so fast, for all practical purposes they are nonexistent.</p>
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		<title>By: goldstandard</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538869</link>
		<dc:creator>goldstandard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 01:10:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538869</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There is no doubt in my feable little mind, that over this weekend the wheels are turning in Washington and come Monday or Tuesday the latest, Joe and Jane sixpack are going to be for the surprise of their lives. We the American taxpayer are going to be paying for a bail out of Freddie and Fannie for the rest of our lives as well as our childrens and theirs as well to the tune of over five trillion dollars and not one politician or banker will ever see the inside of a jail cell.&lt;br /&gt;
When this comes to pass, there should be a cry from the populace the likes of which Washigton has never seen. Every blog regardless of political stripe should call for a walk out of one day in protest. If that doesn’t get anyones attention, then the next one should last a week and just bring the country to a halt.&lt;br /&gt;
   When the peoples business is no longer being served, under the Constitution, we do have a way of changing things. You know that line that starts off: When in the course of human events. I sincerely hope that apathy doesn’t get the better of us.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no doubt in my feable little mind, that over this weekend the wheels are turning in Washington and come Monday or Tuesday the latest, Joe and Jane sixpack are going to be for the surprise of their lives. We the American taxpayer are going to be paying for a bail out of Freddie and Fannie for the rest of our lives as well as our childrens and theirs as well to the tune of over five trillion dollars and not one politician or banker will ever see the inside of a jail cell.<br />
When this comes to pass, there should be a cry from the populace the likes of which Washigton has never seen. Every blog regardless of political stripe should call for a walk out of one day in protest. If that doesn’t get anyones attention, then the next one should last a week and just bring the country to a halt.<br />
   When the peoples business is no longer being served, under the Constitution, we do have a way of changing things. You know that line that starts off: When in the course of human events. I sincerely hope that apathy doesn’t get the better of us.</p>
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		<title>By: DrDick</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538840</link>
		<dc:creator>DrDick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538840</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As I said yesterday, most (though not all) business executives are as dumb as a box of rocks (witness our MBA-in-Chief) and have no clue what they are doing (at least in terms of running their businesses).  Add to this the kinds of adverse incentives built into current executive compensation packages and the total lack of accountability and you have a recipe for economic disaster.  It is not just in the financial industry, but nearly everywhere to varying degrees (particularly in Detroit).  There are a number of reasons for this, but two big ones are the fact that companies no longer promote from within (so that the CEO actually knows the business he is running) and the single-minded focus on return to investors and stock prices.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I said yesterday, most (though not all) business executives are as dumb as a box of rocks (witness our MBA-in-Chief) and have no clue what they are doing (at least in terms of running their businesses).  Add to this the kinds of adverse incentives built into current executive compensation packages and the total lack of accountability and you have a recipe for economic disaster.  It is not just in the financial industry, but nearly everywhere to varying degrees (particularly in Detroit).  There are a number of reasons for this, but two big ones are the fact that companies no longer promote from within (so that the CEO actually knows the business he is running) and the single-minded focus on return to investors and stock prices.</p>
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		<title>By: bobsampron</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538761</link>
		<dc:creator>bobsampron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538761</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;If I may, please let me suggest some reading. There are two macroeconomic theories that seem at play. The first is Development-Dependency theory, developed by Andre Gunder Frank. Sadly, he passed away in 2005, right when we needed him the most.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The other theory is called “The Kondratieff Wave.” It’s a phenomenon that seemed to be held off by liberal capitalism. Now that LC is gone from America’s economy and the so-called “free market” has taken it’s place, the clock is again ticking. Not good. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We’ve just come out of the Spring Inflationary Growth Phase of the wave, evidenced by the growth of stock market prices. We are in the Summer phase of the wave, marked by Stagflation. Because the economy lacks its old government-based circuit breakers, the only thing preventing the rest of the cycle is Adam Smith’s old invisible hand… except with so much economies of scale working in the negative direction now (ie., near monopolies), I think that hand isn’t just there but invisible; I think it’s plum disappeared.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may, please let me suggest some reading. There are two macroeconomic theories that seem at play. The first is Development-Dependency theory, developed by Andre Gunder Frank. Sadly, he passed away in 2005, right when we needed him the most.</p>
<p>The other theory is called “The Kondratieff Wave.” It’s a phenomenon that seemed to be held off by liberal capitalism. Now that LC is gone from America’s economy and the so-called “free market” has taken it’s place, the clock is again ticking. Not good. </p>
<p>We’ve just come out of the Spring Inflationary Growth Phase of the wave, evidenced by the growth of stock market prices. We are in the Summer phase of the wave, marked by Stagflation. Because the economy lacks its old government-based circuit breakers, the only thing preventing the rest of the cycle is Adam Smith’s old invisible hand… except with so much economies of scale working in the negative direction now (ie., near monopolies), I think that hand isn’t just there but invisible; I think it’s plum disappeared.</p>
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		<title>By: otchmoson</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538757</link>
		<dc:creator>otchmoson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538757</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It’s not only greedy financial corporations . . . the problem, of course, extends to healthcare organizations, and the heretofore unassailable academia. Healthcare Renewal details some of the bad boys in these arenas at &lt;a href=&quot;http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/07/bad-week-in-court-for-us-health-care.html#links&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/.....html#links&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s not only greedy financial corporations . . . the problem, of course, extends to healthcare organizations, and the heretofore unassailable academia. Healthcare Renewal details some of the bad boys in these arenas at <a href="http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/2008/07/bad-week-in-court-for-us-health-care.html#links" rel="nofollow">http://hcrenewal.blogspot.com/&#8230;..html#links</a></p>
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		<title>By: Elliott</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538686</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538686</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks Ian.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ian.</p>
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		<title>By: bigbrother</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538664</link>
		<dc:creator>bigbrother</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:36:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/12/no-no-no-gretchen-no-the-financiers-were-not-shortsighted/#comment-1538664</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The Neocon business plan was in place before the Bush administration. They know thw impacts of their policy. They get rich the econ is in disaray and more harvesting of assests using leverasged ubfriendly buyouts. The wolf pack and the hyena pack are circling the herd.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Neocon business plan was in place before the Bush administration. They know thw impacts of their policy. They get rich the econ is in disaray and more harvesting of assests using leverasged ubfriendly buyouts. The wolf pack and the hyena pack are circling the herd.</p>
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