When the great Obama/Hillary war was still engaged, I could never figure out why so many were sure that Obama was the progressive of the two. I couldn’t see a dime’s worth of difference between em…still can’t.

And thanks a lot for caving on FISA.

Not

With his FISA vote he has proven that he is just another political hack in the pocket of the big corporations. I could see this coming. Progressive? BS.

He sure changed his tune after Clinton suspended her campaign and he took on those new campaign people who’d been working for her.
I don’t think that’s a coincidence, but I don’t know whether it’s his true views coming out or whether it’s their whispering bad advice in his ear.

Fortunately I haven’t given his campaign much money; I’ll let them keep it, and donate elsewhere, where it will be put to better use.

Let him get into the white house. Just like W talked “compassionate conserv” and “moderate” and then governed from the right right right wing, Obama will move left the day after inauguration. First we need to get him IN. Then we can get him moving leftward in a hurry.

Can Obama opt back in for Public Financing? He’s gonna need it…! I think the net roots funding has shriveled up and died…!

Yessiree, I’m pissed. voting for yes… $, mmm, prob. not.

Did you check the vote today, pal.

Head on over to CheetoLand where yo’all belong.

Believer.

Hahahahahaaaaaaaa!

‘It’s Hillary’s Fault!’

Man, that Kool-Aid be some powerful mind-bending stuff.

Great post as usual Ian Welsh. During the primary, Obama and his handlers played the “fauxgressive bloggosphere” like a violin virtuoso. Now we can sit back and watch as these same bloggers who foamed at the mouth over Clinton’s “triangulation” spin the justification for his FISA vote. And believe me they will.

Nope.

No me.

Not buyin’ no pig-in-a-poke.

My momma would never forgive me.

I know you’re pissed, as I am, but, please refrain from personal attacks on Pups! Mahalo Nui Loa!

Is there any consumer fraud involved with him saying he would fight to eliminate telco immunity, then reverses?

Can you get our money back?

Obama: Chicago machine tool wrapped in a $2,000 suit.

Paid for, of course, by the megacorps.

All hail our corporate masters and the Chicago machine who fluff for them!

Welcome to the United States of Corporatism (Italian style).

Gotta work three jobs to keep your “health care”…uh…health “insurance”…uh…premiums?

Don’t worry.

Work liberates.

Happy Corporate Sovereignty Day.

All hail Barry The Privacy Slayer! He serves his masters well.

His work has made him free: to sell us out and overthrow the Republic.

Such a deal.

Such audacity.

Such a willing tool for corporate fascism.

Just blogged on My.BarackObama.com that I’d not be giving any more money to his campaign, will be going to Accountability PAC instead.

I’m in for $50 on August 8. That’s what I had budgeted for Obama pre convention. He ain’t getting it. I don’t see a path for him to reclaim it either.

Tweety’s panel on Hardball is hammering Obama’s sellout, and, raising the fact that the ‘Left’ is pissed…! Nice to see it being aired!

He sure changed his tune after Clinton suspended her campaign and he took on those new campaign people who’d been working for her.

And how well did they do for her? Did they win the nomination for her? That’s what I can’t handle.

Both candidates attack Iran for testing longer range missles today…

So Israel and the US are threatening em daily and they aren’t supposed to be able to defend themselves? Strange rules. Just roll over and show us yer belly!

Neither Clinton nor Obama were in my top three choices.
Now, who do you really intend to vote for again? Isn’t it that guy that’s older than dirt?

ian - great, great post. exactly right wrt obama.

just one small nit wrt clinton - i don’t think she had a universal health care plan. maybe an attempt at a universal health insurance plan?

but right on re obama. i might have bought his lies 30 years ago. but not today.

Yes. This was all Hillary’s fault. That horrible woman!

Please. You cannot be serious…

I never thought Obama was a liberal. I knew he was shaky on reproductive issues. His hawk talk about Iran was disturbing.

But I did believe him when he said he’d fight this FISA legislation.

Ah, well. Whatever happens to his support on the left is all on him. I don’t want to hear any crap about how “the DFHs abandoned Obama, wah wah! It’s their fault he lost to McCain, waaaaaah.”

Dude has to earn my support. You don’t get my support just ‘cuz the other guy sucks rocks. Does not work that way anymore. Apparently Obama didn’t get that memo.

Fuck you Obama, and the Horse You Rode in On.

4th Amendment that.

We could look at this…stir the pot…
Cynthia McKinney 08 Green Party.
http://www.runcynthiarun.org/

It’ll be fun to watch all the racists realize that Obama and the Democrats voted to spy on them.

I should have been clear. My comment at 21 is referring to the comment above, #4, re Hillary being at fault.

(P.S.: Hillary voted against this legislation, Mr. Wizard.)

There were too many of us who knew long before Bush was elected that “compassionate conservatism” was a tip o the hat to huge a capital structural realignment but the Dems pre election discourse didn’t go far enough to let us break it down. Same thing right now. Its Obaminable for him to be talking the same trash. But its a clue.

Lot’s of clues out there with too many red flags to give Obama a pass through Go without us being first loyal to guess what, our values. Government by the people, eh?

Electoral College, much?

I live in CA, where McCain’s campaign has one paid staffer for over thirty million people. McCain’s campaign wrote off my state.

CA will vote blue in the Electoral College even if 50,000 of us write in Glenda The Good Witch.

Glenda’s got my vote.

At least she’s not wearing $2,000 lobbyist suits and whoring for the megacorps.

Unlike Barry The Privacy Slayer, Defender of The Corporate Faith.

IWPOHIHWOF.

Barry, “you think you’re God’s gift, you’re a liar“

Hillary voted against this legislation, Mr. Wizard

are you saying you know that would have been her vote if she had won the nomination instead of obama? i don’t ever remember her fighting against this travesty.

“Diet Obama” hell — he’s the new Zima!

I want second party.

And a real election.

The irony: August 8, 1974 is when Nixon resigned for illegal wiretapping.

Love the song!

Should’ve been Hillary’s campaign anthem.

Fits perfectly.

Here we go again. In 2004 Jane convinced me to vote anyway, even though I was discouraged to the point of just staying home for the first time in 30 years. Here we are, 4 years later, after winning control of congress, and it’s just more of the same old yuck.

I disagreed with Obama’s stance on NCLB and public education, as well his approach to healthcare. Since he has become a moral scold towards the African American community (scolding, without offering any workable solutions is so Republican, don’t you think?), supporting faith-based nonsense that violates the 1st amendment, voting today against the 4th amendment, showing his true colors in regard to abortion and capital punishment, and his support of a Blue Dog candidate over a progressive candidate, I have lost all enthusiasm and interest in supporting his race for the White House.

I have always, through my union, manned the GOTV phones, knocked on doors, donated money to candidates, etc. This year, no. I just don’t see the point. Yes, he may appoint a Supreme Court justice or two, but who will he nominate? Will it be someone center-right to appear bipartisan? How is that better than McCain nominating far right-wingers, when chances are that Obama’s center-right nominees will frequently side with the conservatives anyway? As far as cleaning up the colossal mess BushCo will leave behind, I don’t see Obama doing much about that either, based upon what I am learning about him every day.

I don’t want to be cynical or jaded and I don’t want to just drop out of the political process altogether but after all these years of failing to get a single progressive candidate in a position where they can actually bring about change, I’ve just about had it. The Republicans are a known quantity, as far as political enemies go, but the Democrats have proven to me, over the last 2 decades, that there is no point in hoping for progressive policies from that side — they do more to defeat progressive politics than Gingrich, DeLay, Lott, or Cheney could ever hope for. Hell, today’s Democrats, with the exception of Dodd, Feingold, and Kennedy, (and a few others on most occasions) make Nixon look progressive!

Maybe for Jane and the rest of you younger folks, there will come a time when you will elect more and better Democrats and see America return to a progressive agenda. I don’t see it happening in my lifetime and Obama and our congress critters are the biggest argument for that position. I hope I’m wrong.

but if you do that, your vote will never be counted. it won’t even show up as a protest vote.

i’m with you, in that i plan to vote against obama, but i want my vote to be counted. that is why i’m thinking third party. i know here in MA it’s been very hard to have votes for write in candidates counted (even when part of campaign).

…. do you have any thinking to share on why you aren’t considering third party as a protest vote?

intentional irony.

August 8th was deliberately chosen for precisely that reason. It’s not so much irony as a metaphorical and financial 2×4 across the forehead.

I seriously think we need to consider organizing a write-in campaign. I think we could do it.

~~and replying to Selise:

Ahhh…I see…

I think it’s pretty clear what I’m saying.

“Hillary voted against this legislation.”

I’m not Madame Psychic. I have no idea how she might have voted in Other Worlds. But in this one, where it actually counts, she voted against it. So blaming her people for Obama’s vote is rather silly, don’t you think?

Anyone who wants to debate What Might Have Happened If Things Were Different, carry on. But that seems rather silly, too.

We said protect our 4th Amendment. He said nope.
We said stop the constant erosion of Roe v. Wade. He said nope.
We said uphold the separation of church and state. He said nope.

The Audacity of Nope.

Hey, CT, Obama doesn’t need us anymore, he’s got the big bucks coming in now:

NYT: Obama Making Headway With Big-Money Donors, Too
The New York Times reports that Barack Obama’s fundraising prowess is expanding beyond his small-donor base now that he’s won the nomination. The campaign took in $5 million at a Hollywood fundraiser ten days ago, and last night the candidate was in Atlanta for a fundraiser that carried a minimum $2,300 ticket price.

If you’re serious, the first step is to realize you’re talking about not “a” write-in campaign, but fifty-one write-in campaigns. Oh, and each of them is governed by a different set of rules as to how write-in votes get made and counted.

Good luck with that.

Nope!

They are delighted to put Obama in the “just another politician” box with McCain, thus depressing excitement and turnout among the Democratic base.

Lick our wounds, yes. Express our disappointment, sure. Post our complaints at MyBo.com, right. But, folks, do we really want John McCain’s itchy finger on the nuclear trigger? Do we really want McCain appointees anywhere in the federal judiciary, let alone SCOTUS?

I don’t.

Let’s get over this, please. We don’t have a progressive nominee. Big surprise. There was never a possibility of a progressive nominee. Time to get back to work. It never ends.

So what is the point of the post? Should we just vote for Nader because we are disappointed?

that’ll convince me.

I am tired as well. But what is the alternative? A pox on all their houses.

The poster and those who applaud him are exactly the sort who elected George Bush in 2000.

Go ahead, do it again.

[Mod Note; Comment edited by moderator. Please do not insult other commenters. Thank you.]

Time to get back to work. It never ends.

+1, I’m with Teddy here.

the problem is that the fix was in and we can tell nothing from votes against cloture. i’ll just quote hugh from earlier today:

We can definitely tell who some of the bad guys are in this because they will vote no on the amendments but yes on passage of the bill. But we can’t say who the good guys are, and indeed there may not be any, because the fix is in on all of this, these are cosmetic votes, so anyone voting for the amendments and against passage of the bill knows that in fact the amendments will fail and the bill will pass. I should point out as well that no Senator objected to the Unanimous Consent agreement, none invoked any of the procedural delays at their disposal, Harry Reid did not refuse to schedule these votes, Obama did not lead, nor did Hillary Clinton.

yeah, date for the Accountability Money Bomb was chosen with that in mind.

In all honesty, selise, I don’t see a credible 3rd party candidate. Nader’s behavior re the Greens was deeply undemocratic, and I do not trust him in electoral politics.

I wish the US had a progressive 3rd party that chose all candidates via transparent voting processes. Til then, here in CA Glenda has my Prez vote…..

Speaking of bitter irony, McInsane criticized Obama’s flip-flop on FISA, while failing to even cast a vote… again!!! Nice to see the rousing welcome Teddy received on the floor of the Senate!

Not gonna get over it, nope. No can do.

The thing is, Obama has said (literally and figuratively,I believe) that he is not the same old, same old. He has said, “believe in me.”

Well, the guy lied. There is really no getting around that. He frickin’ lied. He said he would oppose this. Now, you can think, “Oh, he changed his mind. That’s not a lie.” But when asked to explain why he changed, he hemmed and hawed and said lots of stuff that is simply. Not. True. Or, what we in the real world call “lies.”

Whether I vote for him or not, this is not something I am going to “get over.” Maybe the GOP doesn’t hold its politicians to any standards. But I do. A lot of us do.

And, you know, we should. We should.

You do not build the infrastructure for change by voting the status quo. If Barry becomes POTUS that will be the end of the progressive movement for a generation. His failed Presidency, and it will be a failure, will be used by the ReThugs for decades.

The idea that McSame is that much worse than Barry is a fallacy.

McSame it the enemy. Better the enemy I know in front of me than the ‘friend’ I thought I had behind me.

Stabbing me in the back.

This should be obvious to anyone by now but I note it is now the last of the many, many arguments and reasons we’ve been given to vote for Barry.

Funny….

You don’t hear all that much about ‘change’ anymore do ya.

I remember, back in the Ciro Rodriguez days.

But we’re still here, fighting.

As Leonard Coehn sang, hopefully prophetically, “democracy is coming. . . to the U. S. A.”

Well said, I was willing to support Obama and even defended him because although I did not see him as a progressive I wished to unite the party behind him once it became clear (back in March) that he was going to be the nominee. But I reject his casual selling out of the Constitution, attacking his base, and embracing domestic spying enshrined in the current FISA bill. As I said a while ago, I have withdrawn my support of him. Each person must make their own choice but Obama has no intention of supporting us or our values because so many of us say that we will vote for him no matter what. I disagree. A candidate has to earn my vote, and he doesn’t even come close.

Hmmm, so who is it that really needs the immunity???

Washington—July 8, 2008—TomFlocco.com—’According to Fox News, “virtually all records and billing in the U.S. are done for the telephone companies by Amdocs Ltd., an Israeli-based private telecommunication company, contracting with the 25 biggest phone companies in America, and more worldwide,” said Fox chief political correspondent Carl Cameron in a four-part series—the video and transcript content of which were removed from Fox’s website after both were preserved by internet sources.

‘A congressional contract permitted Israel’s Foxcom/Mobile Access to recently install cell-phone systems in the U.S. Capitol building—yet House members have not explained why they are placing their own communications at risk of espionage, given the astonishing evidence.’

http://tomflocco.com/fs/HouseH.....Spying.htm

I’m with Teddy - too much is at stake.

I’m voting for Obama (first time in my life - 8th presidential election - I’m voting for a major party candidate in the general election).

I’m doing GoTV for Obama.

I’m giving money to Accountability PAC. And maybe Obama will convince me to donate to him again. Time will tell, and right now it looks like my money should go for organizations that support civil rights and don’t just talk about it.

thanks kirk.

i wasn’t thinking so much about voting for a third party as using a third party to register my protest. hell, i’d even consider voting for barr (so long as i know he has no chance of winning). well, there’s time to figure that one out - but i do think i want my protest vote counted. just not sure where yet.

Actually, the last section of the post would suggest you’ve missed the point.

I don’t read Ian to be saying “Let’s all run away from Obama” — he’s suggesting that maybe Obama is being a bit shortsighted in his political positioning.

Be for the 4th amendment. Be for abortion rights. And be for universal health are. Don’t just say you’re progressive one day, then the next day say “except…”

No more sweet nothings.

Real commitment will get you eight years, not just one day.

My quibble with Ian’s post is that instead of addressing it to Obama, perhaps he should have addressed it David Axelrod.

Dems and America have been chumped by the champion of hope. Change you can believe in? Right! He’s just talking about all the change he’ll be able to put in his pocket.

Audacity of hope indeed. Never too soon to embed cynicism in our youth.

Remembering JFK proudly waving his ACLU membership card.

I’ll vote for Obama- without enthusiasm- but no money.

Hi Priscilla- long time no see.

Another fear I have is that Obama’s “plan” or whatever, is really going to depress voting and GOTV for good down ticket Dems. No “Obama Tide” momentum.

I think Obama already has the vote. I just don’t see McCain getting it. So now is the time for pre-game on impeachment. Obama will overreach.

I introduce into the record the Mahablog post on late-term abortions, explaining why you will almost never see one because of mental distress. Ms. O’Brien has actually been pregnant as opposed to your humble poster. But the post also explains why Roe does not mean that “pro-choice” means any third-trimester abortion for any reason.

The humble poster who has never been pregnant writes: There is a difference between a mental-health danger to a woman’s life and a generalized mental health problem. Melissa at Open Left properly pointed out that Roe is becoming more and more of an abstract right because abortion is becoming less accessible in more places. Obama has called Breyer and Ginsburg “sensible” in another interview, which appeared on Volokh somewhere. So if we get judges like Breyer, Ginsburg, and Souter who also came in for some praise in that interview, we will get judges who support Roe: it is part of the philosophical package. What needs more scrutiny is what sort of restriction on abortion the individual judges would consider appropriate. That is the scope of how the federal government preserves the right to an abortion with state governments eager to narrow it as much as possible.

Killjoy.

Great post Ian, couldn’t say it any better bbluhring.

Here’s my theory, and it’s a wild-ass-guess in the extreme: Since his statement that he’d filibuster any bill that contained immunity, Obama has become his party’s presumptive nominee and, as such, has begun getting enriched, beefed-up national security briefings — Dick Cheney’s dark fantasies, if you will. These are terrifying, of course, and entirely stovepiped like all Dick Cheney “intelligence.” But Obama can’t know that, and doesn’t have the Intelligence Committee experience to tell the difference.

With long-time Intel Committee folks like Feinstein telling him that Feingold’s objections are all about his ego and not about the “program,” Obama has chosen to accept the new briefings he’s received. What choice does he have, in the face of dire warnings of apocalyptic attacks “on the Homeland” between now and Election Day? You know that’s what they are briefing him. You just know it.

This may actually bode well for the first months of his Administration, when he’s likely to be tested by a new version of “Bin Laden Determined To Attack in US.” He may just pay attention, to our nation’s benefit. But I bet his change of heart on this isn’t triangulating against the base and it isn’t moving toward the center and it isn’t writing off the left — it’s an honest response to a terrifying Cheney Intel Special for Presidential Candidates.

Again, just my WAG.

But we do know what Hillary’s vote was and Obama’s wasn’t.
That’s where the pedal hits the metal, on the vote.

As was with the Cheney’s energy bill and renewing the Patriot
Act. Love her or hate her, Hillary’s votes hold more water.

There may be what we think we know about Hillary, then the knowable
unknowns and of course the unknowable unknowables but there’s
in fact a far better record of knowables on Hillary Clinton -
not her husbands knowables included - that are agreeable than
there are for Obama’s incredible list of unknowables and his
advisors lack of ability to keep us lucid and knowledgable about
anything besides winning winning winning. Some market theory
they’ve got going.

I’m goinig to put a bumpersticker on my car. This one.

Ah, I see by the odd “In response to @ 1″ message that the comment to which I replied @59 has addressed by the mods.

Consider this a little note, then, that my comment @59 is NOT a reply to rwcole’s comment at the very top of the thread.

I’ll vote for Obama- without enthusiasm- but no money.

I will not vote for Obama. As the FISA vote showed today, even on a core Constitutional issue, there is no difference between Republican and Republican-lite.

Sorry about that.

*g*

I’ve seen some serious political folks with some serious money behind them look down that road before, shake their heads, and conclude that it’s a very steep hill to climb.

But Obama can’t know that,

you could figure it out. and he should be able to too. if he can’t, then i don’t want his finger by the nuclear trigger either.

Yes, Hugh, the lines have become blurred between who is repub and dem.

The audacity of nope. I’m so glad I didn’t give money.

All due respect, rwc, but you’ve made it clear you never give money in primaries. Now you proudly say you won’t give money in the general. My question is: do you ever actually give money?

Hey Valley Girl! I’ve been lurking for a while now — very busy work schedule. I feel very angry that Obama feels that he can count on my vote because I’ve never voted for a Republican for president before. Like many others here, I believe that my vote is the only bargaining power I have (outside of a few dollars to donate and my time on GOTV efforts). It must be earned to have any meaning. I survived Nixon, Reagan, Bush I, and now, Bush II. The arguments about the sky falling if McCain wins won’t sway me. If there was an actual Democratic majority in congress to hold whoever the next president will be accountable, then I’ll be satisfied. I guess the answer is to keep working to elect more and better democrats to congress after all. Sigh.

If that’s the case, he’ll really get squirrelly on Iraq after he goes over there and gets the full court press from Betrayus and Co.

Maybe. I think it much more likely that he did just out of sheer political calculation; just like Pelosi has done with impeachment. their own petty political fortunes are more important to them than the Constitution. That simple.

Again, just my WAG.

Every time someone we would like to support or have supported does something crass, craven, or stupid there is a tendency to make up defenses that have no evidence to support them whatsoever. My feeling is that it’s not our place to defend Obama’s vote. It’s his responsibility to explain it to us, and the explanations that he has offered so far have been vacuous spin.

How do these people think it’s good for their political fortune to sell out 70%+ Americans? How do they think it could be a good thing to sell out the constitution, our founding document an idea they took an oath to protect and defend?

i dunno, he’ probably just scared of all the muslim haters.

Yep- quite a bit last time around. I’ll give to the local congressional candidate if he’s in the running against Bilbray.

I could not have said it better. Thank you. I am old and more jaded by the moment. I think we need to start an AA for political junkies so we can acknowlege that we are “powerless against politicians”

I was thinking about you the other day, hadn’t seen ya around much. figured you must be busy.
How ya doin?

That’s the way I felt about Gore in 2000 - republican-lite. We have now seen how much damage a committed true rethug can do. Therefore, I’ll still vote for Obama, for the good of the country.

Oh, and I ended up voting for Gore, couldn’t quite bring myself to go green.

Sounds good to me! 12 steps to political freedom….

In case you think I’ve drunk the Obama-aide, I’ll remind you that I’ve made a list to justify supporting a primary challenge to the next Democratic president. Nobody gets off scot-free, and I have a comprehensive list of what I expect our next president to accomplish in the first term.

What are the unmet expectations you won’t forgive? What are the unrealized hopes and dreams you’re unwilling to forget? What meager accomplishments are you willing to let our President run on in 2012, unchallenged within our party for re-election?

What will get you to seek out someone to consider a challenge to the incumbent of our own party? What conditions must pertain in order for you to believe that the new President, in whom we invested so much energy, has failed us?

1. If US troops are still dying in the Middle East. This is absolute. If the new President hasn’t ended the occupation of Iraq, then I will support an intraparty challenger.

2. If the current health care mess still prevails. We need something better — in place and well underway. It also needs to have a clear path to universal single-payer health care, or I will find someone to challenge the incumbent.

3. If the Unitary Executive still exists. I expect the next Democratic President to immediately restore the rule of law throughout the Executive Branch. I also expect clear actions that show respect for checks and balances. Absent a return to tripartite government, I will back a challenger.

4. If our current energy and environmental situation is unchanged. This is a rather sweeping requirement, as it should be. I expect the posture of our Federal government to morph into something quite yet unseen, with huge tax incentives for green investment, the removal of tax breaks for carbon companies, and a Manhattan Project for energy independence. I want us to respect Mother Gaia in all we do. If the current President hasn’t gotten any of that off the ground, I will support another’s candidacy in our party’s presidential primary.

5. If Bush Era lawbreakers, philosophers, and profiteers roam free. Yup, I want some amazing televised show trials of attorneys who politicized the justice department, authorized torture, and invented the Fourth Branch. I want the corporate executives who provided dirty food and water to our troops, built Iraqi jails that leaked human waste, and repainted Baghdad airport trucks and resold them to our country prosecuted, convicted and imprisoned. I want those who twisted intelligence and manipulated our media exposed and impeached. I want this question to ring loud throughout the land: “Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Federalist Society?” Without these cathartic events, any attempt at a “bygones” Presidency will draw a challenger, and I will support that challenger.

6. If the War on Terror is still being waged. I want Osama bin Laden captured and put on trial for his crimes, but I also want Gitmo closed. Let’s use the principles handed to us by our Founders to renew Americans’ belief in our constitutional compact. Indict, try, convict, imprison. If America is still living our false BushCo paradigm of fear, I will see the next President on the campaign trail.

7. If the Federal Government still protects corporations from citizens, instead of the other way round. I want a Labor Department that helps working people, not capital. I want a State Department that conducts diplomacy, not gives orders. I want an FDA that protects consumers of food and drugs, not their producers. I want an Agriculture Department that promotes and supports sustainable farming, not corporate greed. In short, I want a government of, for, and by the people. Anything less than measurable progress is unacceptable, and will find me actively recruiting a challenger.

8. If campaigns for federal office are still privately funded. I expect the next President to propose and enact an exclusive system of full public financing for election to all federal offices. Compromises in this arena will make me look elsewhere within our party for a presidential candidate in 2012.

9. If FDR’s words have not been returned to a rightful place in our national discourse. Sure, it will be great to hear the new President orate on issues new to our world since the New Deal. But I also expect our next President to engage fully in the Class War that’s been waged on the non-upper classes since the end of the 1970s.

Has anyone seen wobblybits? I haven’t seen her in a long time. One day she misunderstood me and thought I was saying she was a Hillary hater, then someone came in to talk about work and I couldn’t respond.

I hope all this stuff about Obama didn’t drive her away.

I wonder if Barack Obama would be different today if Hillary Clinton wasn’t up his butt?

you may be right, and i’m not going to try to convince you otherwise…. but to explain my own position - there is one thing that is quite different this year that wasn’t the case in 2000: the dems hold the majority in congress.

I’m disappointed at his vote but not surprised. The bill passed by about a 50-vote margin. Obama realized it didn’t stand a chance, and maybe thought if he voted Yea, it would help offset McCain’s assertions that he’s “soft on terror” or whatever.

It’s like most of those times that Lieberman votes for nonsense stuff with the Dems, but sides with the Republicans on important stuff. If Obama was a swing vote in a 48-47 situation and he still voted Yea, then we’d all be justified in screaming bloody murder. But now, it’s not that big a deal.

Obama or McCain is the real issue. You don’t have to love Obama, or even LIKE him very much, but you DO have to vote for him. Supreme Court, get it?

I know I would be.

I believe she was off to a vacation in Brazil for a few weeks.

good luck with that

Yes, and let’s not forget that Hillary would be different if she hadn’t had the bad fortune to marry Bill.

Ultimately everything is Bill Clinton’s fault. Just ask Joe DiGenova.

Gee, Teddy, you better schedule one of Obama’s platform house parties quick.