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	<title>Comments on: Starving in the Streets (End of Free Trade Edition)</title>
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		<title>By: wesgpc</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1533737</link>
		<dc:creator>wesgpc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1533737</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;My only comments on the links Masaccio presented are that&lt;br /&gt;
1) it is not a conspiracy theory&lt;br /&gt;
2) the mechanism is very unlikely to work unless the prices are rising due to fundamentals anyway -this is the kind of process that does not cause commodity prices swings, but makes them larger&lt;br /&gt;
3) the argument that it can’t work because ‘for every seller there is a buyer’ confuses accounting identities with how short run equilibira are formed.&lt;br /&gt;
4) seems like some participation by oil producers is needed. Some one needs to be buying long positions and not taking delivery. Or there is very funny business going on in the unregulated, and essentially unobservable, portion of the futures market (which is large),&lt;br /&gt;
5) I think Keynes dictum is relevant, concering the required actions of short sellers to keep a bubble down: “The market can remain irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Still, hard to estimate how much premium the futures market would add to the fundamental supply deamdn imbalance. A reputable congresspeople (forget his name -something like Van Patten) are saying upt to 25% (though he was not clear whether he meant price level or of recent price increases). If he meant price level, could it be that much? Oil should really be $3 and futures speculation makes it $4?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My only comments on the links Masaccio presented are that<br />
1) it is not a conspiracy theory<br />
2) the mechanism is very unlikely to work unless the prices are rising due to fundamentals anyway -this is the kind of process that does not cause commodity prices swings, but makes them larger<br />
3) the argument that it can’t work because ‘for every seller there is a buyer’ confuses accounting identities with how short run equilibira are formed.<br />
4) seems like some participation by oil producers is needed. Some one needs to be buying long positions and not taking delivery. Or there is very funny business going on in the unregulated, and essentially unobservable, portion of the futures market (which is large),<br />
5) I think Keynes dictum is relevant, concering the required actions of short sellers to keep a bubble down: “The market can remain irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”</p>
<p>Still, hard to estimate how much premium the futures market would add to the fundamental supply deamdn imbalance. A reputable congresspeople (forget his name -something like Van Patten) are saying upt to 25% (though he was not clear whether he meant price level or of recent price increases). If he meant price level, could it be that much? Oil should really be $3 and futures speculation makes it $4?</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Welsh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532806</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Welsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 04:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532806</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;That’s very interesting, and makes sense.  Thank you.  Read through that and I may even understand it enough to write an article on it.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;My instincts have been saying it has to be having an effect, but I didn’t know enough about how it works to know the mechanical linkages.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That’s very interesting, and makes sense.  Thank you.  Read through that and I may even understand it enough to write an article on it.</p>
<p>My instincts have been saying it has to be having an effect, but I didn’t know enough about how it works to know the mechanical linkages.</p>
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		<title>By: DWBartoo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532729</link>
		<dc:creator>DWBartoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 03:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532729</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for those links, masaccio, definitely appreciated.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;D&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for those links, masaccio, definitely appreciated.</p>
<p>D</p>
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		<title>By: wesgpc</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532676</link>
		<dc:creator>wesgpc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 03:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532676</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;From link in second Naked Capitalism article:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;” Biofuels have forced global food prices up by 75% - far more than previously estimated - according to a confidential World Bank report obtained by the Guardian. “&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Another quote from Guardian article:&lt;br /&gt;
‘ “Without the increase in biofuels, global wheat and maize stocks would not have declined appreciably and price increases due to other factors would have been moderate,” says the report. The basket of food prices examined in the study rose by 140% between 2002 and this February. The report estimates that higher energy and fertiliser prices accounted for an increase of only 15%, while biofuels have been responsible for a 75% jump over that period.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It argues that production of biofuels has distorted food markets in three main ways. First, it has diverted grain away from food for fuel, with over a third of US corn now used to produce ethanol and about half of vegetable oils in the EU going towards the production of biodiesel. Second, farmers have been encouraged to set land aside for biofuel production. Third, it has sparked financial speculation in grains, driving prices up higher. ‘&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;link to Guardian article is&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/03/biofuels.renewableenergy&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.guardian.co.uk/envi.....ableenergy&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I assume the story is on the level. Too bad the report is “secret”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From link in second Naked Capitalism article:</p>
<p>” Biofuels have forced global food prices up by 75% &#8211; far more than previously estimated &#8211; according to a confidential World Bank report obtained by the Guardian. “</p>
<p>Another quote from Guardian article:<br />
‘ “Without the increase in biofuels, global wheat and maize stocks would not have declined appreciably and price increases due to other factors would have been moderate,” says the report. The basket of food prices examined in the study rose by 140% between 2002 and this February. The report estimates that higher energy and fertiliser prices accounted for an increase of only 15%, while biofuels have been responsible for a 75% jump over that period.</p>
<p>It argues that production of biofuels has distorted food markets in three main ways. First, it has diverted grain away from food for fuel, with over a third of US corn now used to produce ethanol and about half of vegetable oils in the EU going towards the production of biodiesel. Second, farmers have been encouraged to set land aside for biofuel production. Third, it has sparked financial speculation in grains, driving prices up higher. ‘</p>
<p>link to Guardian article is<br /><a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/03/biofuels.renewableenergy" rel="nofollow">http://www.guardian.co.uk/envi&#8230;..ableenergy</a></p>
<p>I assume the story is on the level. Too bad the report is “secret”.</p>
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		<title>By: wesgpc</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532658</link>
		<dc:creator>wesgpc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 03:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532658</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;thanks for those links!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Seems to me the following passages are key&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;” When it comes time for the speculators to roll the contracts forward, they have to sell their existing contracts either to someone who is willing to take delivery, or to a producer who sold the oil forward and can now clear that liability without actually producing the stuff. Given relatively high spot demand and tight supply, these rolling transactions have worked fine to this point, without driving prices lower. “&lt;br /&gt;
–from first Naked Capitalism link&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;” [T]he futures market has grown to become not only a market that allows producers and refiners to hedge their risks and speculators to take positions, but is also at the heart of the current oil-pricing regime. Thus, instead of using dated Brent as the basis of pricing crude exports to Europe, several major oil-producing countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iran rely on the IPE Brent Weighted Average (BWAVE).11…&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;[11] The BWAVE is the weighted average of all futures price quotations that arise for a given contract of the futures exchange (IPE) during a trading day. The weights are the shares of the relevant volume of transactions on that day. Specifically, this change places the futures market, which is a market for financial contracts, at the heart of the current pricing system.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;JD concludes:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As you can see, Krugman and Birger are profoundly confused about the way the international oil markets actually function. Futures aren’t a paper bet on the direction of prices determined by some independent process. Futures themselves *determine* the price of most physical oil traded today. The futures price (+ or - the differential) literally *is* the price of oil.&lt;br /&gt;
“&lt;br /&gt;
–from second Naked Capitalism link&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;—-&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In this story, seems to me, producing countries buying open long futures positions to tie futures prices into pricing system. I’m not an futures market expert, and will follow discussions in those links.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for those links!</p>
<p>Seems to me the following passages are key</p>
<p>” When it comes time for the speculators to roll the contracts forward, they have to sell their existing contracts either to someone who is willing to take delivery, or to a producer who sold the oil forward and can now clear that liability without actually producing the stuff. Given relatively high spot demand and tight supply, these rolling transactions have worked fine to this point, without driving prices lower. “<br />
–from first Naked Capitalism link</p>
<p>” [T]he futures market has grown to become not only a market that allows producers and refiners to hedge their risks and speculators to take positions, but is also at the heart of the current oil-pricing regime. Thus, instead of using dated Brent as the basis of pricing crude exports to Europe, several major oil-producing countries such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iran rely on the IPE Brent Weighted Average (BWAVE).11…</p>
<p>[11] The BWAVE is the weighted average of all futures price quotations that arise for a given contract of the futures exchange (IPE) during a trading day. The weights are the shares of the relevant volume of transactions on that day. Specifically, this change places the futures market, which is a market for financial contracts, at the heart of the current pricing system.</p>
<p>JD concludes:</p>
<p>As you can see, Krugman and Birger are profoundly confused about the way the international oil markets actually function. Futures aren’t a paper bet on the direction of prices determined by some independent process. Futures themselves *determine* the price of most physical oil traded today. The futures price (+ or &#8211; the differential) literally *is* the price of oil.<br />
“<br />
–from second Naked Capitalism link</p>
<p>—-</p>
<p>In this story, seems to me, producing countries buying open long futures positions to tie futures prices into pricing system. I’m not an futures market expert, and will follow discussions in those links.</p>
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		<title>By: masaccio</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532630</link>
		<dc:creator>masaccio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 02:46:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532630</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Here is a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lmcm.com/pdf/MonthEndCom/2008-05-Commentary.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;guy saying there is an impact&lt;/a&gt;, and offering a mechanism.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Naked Capitalism has a couple of posts on the matter, saying that speculation is a problem, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/hussman-likelihood-of-60-oil.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/futures-prices-determine-physical-oil.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The comments on Naked Capitalism are pretty thoughtful.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a <a href="http://www.lmcm.com/pdf/MonthEndCom/2008-05-Commentary.pdf" rel="nofollow">guy saying there is an impact</a>, and offering a mechanism.</p>
<p>Naked Capitalism has a couple of posts on the matter, saying that speculation is a problem, <a href="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/hussman-likelihood-of-60-oil.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/07/futures-prices-determine-physical-oil.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>The comments on Naked Capitalism are pretty thoughtful.</p>
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		<title>By: inhk</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532612</link>
		<dc:creator>inhk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 02:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532612</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I always enjoy the line, “let them eat cake,” especially as no one really knows which contemporary American liberal invented that line. Many want to attribute it to Queen Marie Antoinette leading up to the French revolution. But the actual quote many attempt to leverage for political posture is, ” Qu’ils mangent de la brioche,” which means, “let them eat brioche.” If you have ever traveled to France and indulged in this delicacy, you know brioche is an egg based bread that is rich in calories and high in cholesterol. The quote in French comes from Rousseau’s “Confessions” that was written about the time Marie Antoinette was a pre-teenager, and some attribute it to a previous French queen 100 years before the French Revolution. Some historians even believe Rousseau just made the whole thing up.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But what did happen during Queen Marie’s time was to force selling bread at the same price regardless of type or quality. During the revolution, the edict in effect incented bakers to stop making quality bread and to make only cheap bread since “price controls” were put in place. The result? As any rational person can predict, a lot of people went hungry as expensive bread was too cheap to produce and cheap bread was too expensive to buy.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So today, when people shout, “let them eat cake,” what they really mean is “let them pay living wages,” or “let them provide health insurance,” and “let them provide gasoline!” Perhaps Marie was just a liberal who wanted to do good with other peoples’ bread.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always enjoy the line, “let them eat cake,” especially as no one really knows which contemporary American liberal invented that line. Many want to attribute it to Queen Marie Antoinette leading up to the French revolution. But the actual quote many attempt to leverage for political posture is, ” Qu’ils mangent de la brioche,” which means, “let them eat brioche.” If you have ever traveled to France and indulged in this delicacy, you know brioche is an egg based bread that is rich in calories and high in cholesterol. The quote in French comes from Rousseau’s “Confessions” that was written about the time Marie Antoinette was a pre-teenager, and some attribute it to a previous French queen 100 years before the French Revolution. Some historians even believe Rousseau just made the whole thing up.</p>
<p>But what did happen during Queen Marie’s time was to force selling bread at the same price regardless of type or quality. During the revolution, the edict in effect incented bakers to stop making quality bread and to make only cheap bread since “price controls” were put in place. The result? As any rational person can predict, a lot of people went hungry as expensive bread was too cheap to produce and cheap bread was too expensive to buy.</p>
<p>So today, when people shout, “let them eat cake,” what they really mean is “let them pay living wages,” or “let them provide health insurance,” and “let them provide gasoline!” Perhaps Marie was just a liberal who wanted to do good with other peoples’ bread.</p>
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		<title>By: jexter</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532527</link>
		<dc:creator>jexter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532527</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Or maybe I should say I’ll be the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pickensplan.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;T. Boon Pickens&lt;/a&gt; of landfills…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or maybe I should say I’ll be the <a href="http://www.pickensplan.com/" rel="nofollow">T. Boon Pickens</a> of landfills…</p>
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		<title>By: jexter</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532515</link>
		<dc:creator>jexter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;My guess? Ten years from now, landfills are going to &lt;em&gt;very &lt;/em&gt;valuable properties.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m going to start buying them up now - I’ll be the J. Paul Getty of landfills!!!!1!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My guess? Ten years from now, landfills are going to <em>very </em>valuable properties.</p>
<p>I’m going to start buying them up now &#8211; I’ll be the J. Paul Getty of landfills!!!!1!</p>
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		<title>By: DWBartoo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532511</link>
		<dc:creator>DWBartoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 01:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/07/08/how-free-trade-will-end-argentine-edition/#comment-1532511</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Excellant!  Noted, framed and henceforth ‘the’ words.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hat tip!!!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;;~D&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellant!  Noted, framed and henceforth ‘the’ words.</p>
<p>Hat tip!!!</p>
<p>;~D</p>
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