Tomorrow is the vote on the FISA bill.
This morning as I sat here watching the US Senate laud the Founding Fathers and the Declaration of Independence and the founding documents and principles of the American government, I could not reconcile it with the impending votes on the FISA amendments.
These Senators began debate on the FISA amendment bill at 11:30 am ET. And the contrast between the reverential language for the Declaration of Independence and the disrespect for the Fourth Amendment and the rule of law contained in the FISA bill is far too much cognitive dissonance this morning.
Thank goodness for Sen. Russ Feingold this morning or I may have abandoned all hope.
Last week, Blue America launched a call tool to help you get in touch with Senators regarding the FISA bill. We’d like you to put it to some serious use today. We are asking Senators to vote IN FAVOR of the Dodd-Feingold-Leahy Amendment (S.A. 5064 to H.R. 6304). We’re asking for a NO vote on cloture, and a NO vote on the final bill as well.
Every one of these Senators has had an opportunity to read both the FISA law, the proposed FISA bill and amendments thereto, and the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There is no excuse for any Senator not to have done so…since December of 2005. That so many of them seem to have little understanding or faulty information about the bill and it’s long-term legal and policy implications is bad enough. That they are intent on voting on this bill knowing that their understanding is faulty is shameful.
The job of Congress is not to provide the president with absolution for the deliberate and direct violation of written law — it is to uphold their oath to protect the constitution and the rule of law.
So, let’s not make these votes easy for anyone, shall we? Stand up for liberty. Call your Senators. You can use our tool to make calls or find direct dial and FAX information for every Senator linked here.
Because patriotism isn’t just the words you spew in front of the camera for a celebration of the Declaration of Independence. It’s what you do, each and every vote, each and every day, to actually uphold the principles contained therein.
Now, let’s get to work…
UPDATE: Ars Technica has a great bit of analysis on the entire bill as well that deserves serious thought. Don’t miss Marcy’s analysis of the Mike and Mike bait and switch, either. And Raw Story just got the footage up of Feingold’s floor speech on FISA from this morning. Thought folks who missed it might want a peek…
PS — Glenn and I will be on Mike Malloy’s Show this evening talking FISA. Sam Seder is guest hosting — we should be on around 9:30 pm ET.
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what an INSPIRING post this is christy, we all wish each other luck and therefore wish our country luck becuase she is who we defend this week
in fact, their job is the polar obopisite, they are charged with preventing it
good luck firedogs
TO THE PHONES
Rockefeller has got to be one of the smarmiest, dimwitted excuses for a Senator I have ever heard.
Enormous kudos to the Christy and the Blue America team for showing us the power of grassroots efforts! My calls have been made, and my donation is on its way…
Specter is doing a pretty good job, why isn’t Leahy up there standing up to Rockefeller?
Jello Jay is a jellyfish…and one who makes me sick. Immunity for campaign contributors. Enough $$, laws no longer matter. Pure and simple.
Good Morning Christy and pups.
Hamsters seem cranky this morn. Mebbe they’re sick of having to snap the towel at these senators over & over & over.
Enough! It’s time they took their own Constitution seriously. Just disgusting they can’t figure it out for themselves, sigh.
Yep, he is a stinker. Here in California we have a pair of stinker senators as well with Barbara Boxer & DiFi who don’t give a hoot what we hapless constituents want on FISA. sigh…..
Because patriotism isn’t just the words you spew in front of the camera for a celebration of the Declaration of Independence. It’s what you do, each and every vote, each and every day, to actually uphold the principles contained therein.
Now, let’s get to work…
Words to live by.
I actually do have to get over to work right now- will be calling & faxing @ lunch time, though.
What’s that line from Galaxy Quest- Never Give Up, Never Surrender…
I updated above to make sure folks saw a great piece of analysis that Ars Technica did – pointing out the vast dragnet on American communications — e-mails, calls, IMs, whatever– that are being hoovered into an utterly unmonitored executive dragnet that would be okayed by this bill.
Watch Specter. He’s as predictable as the rising sun. He’ll say the pretty words, then turn on his heel and cave. You watch. Just amazing.
Boxer is standing up for Dodd-Feingold. Not sure what the “indemnification” is all about she mentioned. DiFi is a loser though.
OK! Totally pledged per Janes post downstairs, and I dugg her post too, this one needs submission to Digg.
THANKS TO THE WEBS GODS that FDL is UP. I just got here, been trying all am. Needed my compatriots to help me through Lieberman’s (Self-Tel Aviv) bs earlier!!! I somehow struggled through alone. It was PAINFUL!
I’d LOVE to see the money bomb beat all past records, the ad in the Times is superb! Makes me proud!
How on Earth could they take turns in the Senate this AM reading the Declaration of Independence and then proceed to wipe out the 4th amendment but a few hours later????? This is quite something to behold, is it not!?
Thanks Christy, for this post. Another Great in the annals of Firedoglake.
:)
mornin’ pups.
I’ve made my calls to Cantwell and Murray in Washington State. Cantwell voted the right way last time, but Murray didn’t, so we will see how it plays out now.
Thank you Christy and Jane for all that you’ve done on this.
Now I’m off to work.
Sorry — am on phone. Thumbnail — “in demnification” would have been the written assurances from the Bush Administration to telecoms that the Administration would hold them from liability if they cooperated with demands.
Related: they can copy your laptop hardrive at the airport. Why doesn’t that violate the fourth amendment?
Orwell was basically right– it just took a little longer than he predicted.
Reddit for this post.
Reddit for Jane’s WaPoo ad post.
Please help get the word out and give them upvotes and make comments.
You do realize that you posted this comment at the very same time that Barbara Boxer is speaking eloquently against this FISA compromise and for Dodd’s amendment?!!
So Boxer was for immunity in a different form? Interesting.
Thanks Jo – I stand corrected on Boxer.
via Awklib in glenn’s comments:
Boxer’s rockin!
She does very little that upsets me, contrary to most of the rest of the Senate members!
Thank you for all your hard work and savvy planning, Christy and all.
I hope we win on this, that the country wins. Our forefathers must be spinning in their graves, what with all the nonsense that is par among the current crop of faux-legislators who have become, shall we say, too comfortable.
I say make them behave or make them miserable. I have zero patience left. But I still remember how to pester, politely but endlessly.
I will say, it improves my mood immensely to visit the Lake. *g*
Onward!
nice words are – nice.
strong action would be better.
Kit Bond is looking far more garden gnome-ish than usual today.
Senate now in recess until 2:15 pm ET.
Kit Bond= #1 ASSHOLE!
After all the pressure and time they’ve had to review this bill, I can see only one reason for their support. They were in on it from the beginning and they’re looking to cover their a##es.
And he is demonstrating his fine legal scholarship too. *g*
You can encrypt your harddrive data. If I ever take my laptop with me out of country, I WILL encrypt everything on it (as well as resist any attempt for the Gestapo to copy my data). There’s another simple trick: replace your REAL harddrive with a decoy harddrive. Basically, have two harddrives, one that you actually use with all your stuff on it and another that has pretty much nothing on it but the operating system. The latter is the one to place in your laptop when traveling, leaving the other in your luggage OR, if not needed for your usage while away, leave the REAL drive at home.
*G* You’re making it awfully hard not to tune in, heh.
Yeah, there’s a certain Jr Senator from the Land of Lincoln who could lead on this. It’s a shame he’s a wuss, and wants to roll over for the telecoms. I guess they pay well… I suppose that they can direct their employees to send “small” donations and bundle them on his behalf.
That Jr Senator is out at LULAC getting votes, not protecting our rights. Nice.
cool. thanks.
Senate on a break. Kit Bond to Mike Allen, the ick factor just gets better on CSPAN
if only.
i’m not so sure obama doesn’t want the powers bush has so conveniently amassed for himself.
That’s my signal to make myself some lunch. *g*
Part of the change that’s happened to communications in the last two decades is that over long distance, all the traffic’s just digital data now. There are common switching formats to handle both types. You can tap phones and data communications at the same places now.
Alittle missive from Henry to Mike today: Hey! Naughty Boy!!
in the news yesterday(?) at HuffPo: 10,000 laptops go missing at airports/yr in these weird times.
an affront to beloved garden gnomes everywhere.
smarmy he is.
Gee, I wonder why that could be. Why just listen to this very serious FISA debate they’re having. Inexplicable!
Done and done.
Thanks twolf1.
Maybe it would improve if they took a poll of industry lobbyists.
Here was an “interesting” post at GG’s site at Salon from one LT Bohica. Sure, the blog item is at the Washington Times but there is also a nice link to the site of the company that makes the device that the DHS is interested in.
Things are going WAY off-track, and very rapidly at that.
Make that telecom lobbyists and their approval rating would go through the roof.
July 3rd letter Fitz to Henry:Not Protected
….it is taking too long for these posts to load? rerouting??
Read it and included it in my second set of faxes for the day. Great stuff.
OT – I have lots of moveon’s splendid bumperstickers that read “Bush’s Third Term – McCain and invite interested firepups to send me an email with your mailing address and I’ll be oh so happy to send one out to you. npbrat AT gmail DOT com.
They are smallish on a white field & very cool for all kinds of applications from bumpers to backpacks.
I took what she said to mean that the point is not punishment so much as truth. To me, that’s true. The only thing is that punishment is a function that makes accountability work. In truth, I also feel that the government acted like the Mafia in respect to their treatment of the telecoms. If the telecoms resisted, the government made it clear they were risking their licenses, their livelihoods, and the personal freedom of their CEOs etc. They were in the proverbial position between a rock and a hard place. I’m sure that goes against a lot of folks grain here, and that many feel the telecoms should have resisted and were only compliant because they were offered several carrots along with that big stick, but I really feel this is more a constitutional matter of extreme abuse of power than a civil matter, although if the civil court is the only way to solve it, so be it.
Christy for US Senate! Seriously Christie, if you want to run for Senate against Rockefeller in 2010 you need to get started. Join your local Dem committee, set up your own PAC to support WV Democrats, show up for local events around the state, etc.
yeah, every single time this struggle with Mukasey rears it’s ugly head, I think about Schumer and Feinstein. We have THEM to thank for having another criminal at the helm of the DOJ.
I hope and pray their constituents reflect that in their next elections.
It’s time to dump them both for that little piece of
*%()“work”.well c’mon Henry.
Do your job!
Does the invite have to be embossed and engraved?
This is a stupid enough idea that the unnamed senior govenment offical at DHS has got to be Michael Chertoff. It has just the right combination of idiocy, technobabble, disregard for the Constitution, and cruelty that it could be no one else.
Y’all are missing the forest for the trees on FISA. It has become clear, as I suspected for awhile, that the whole reason for the FISA kabuki was to wear out the opposition so as to make each new version worse than the prior one.
I got a single digit for ‘em.
Somehow, I think if Christy were at all interested in running against Jello Jay, she would already be aware of the necessary steps to do so.
“well crafted legislation”
Citizen selise:
Bless your pure heart fer all the great work you’ve contributed in the FISA fight and the battle against constitutional fascism. There IS still time to stop the disintegration of our constitution and the collapse of our country but it’s gunna take direct action and we’re gunna need ta convince enough folks that electing the lesser of evils to take over fascist powers will NOT save us or even postpone the inevitable…if this bill passes with telecom immunity we gotta get folks in the streets of Denver to show Obama that he can’t take the base of the Democratic Party for granted and he won’t win without us. He’s ambitious and at this point amoral…his hubris that is charged by his “rock star” status and tens of millions from the telecoms can still be penetrated before the final election push in September but it’s gunna take citizens in the streets ta offer him his last “come ta Jesus” moment.
This is “hardball” and in this case we have nuthin ta lose by fightin’ ‘cuz our constitution is gone if we lose…the battle for a progressive Democratic Party is bein’ laid down on the floor of the Senate today.
KEEP THE FAITH AND TELL THE BASTARDS WHERE YOU ARE GOIN’ SO THEY KEN GET THERE WITH YA!!
Why do I think that the retroactive immunity deal is more 9-11 cover-up ?
I must have lost my mind.
Regardless, it’s huge, and there’s no fecking way that they should allow it.
Ironically, I’m sure that their low approval rating has little to do with this issue, but with other effects of their fecklessness, like a useless war, a broken economy, and no prospects for anything better any time soon.
In my mind those two issues are just too closely tied. I don’t believe in coincidence, and I think they are totally related!
LOL. So that’s the meaning behind the single digits.
btw, wanted to be certain folks noticed the schedule change for the book salon with David Iglesias. It’s been moved to Friday at 3 pm ET/ noon PT due to a sudden scheduling conflict that cropped up.
I’ve been e-mailing – I’m at work – and pushing this take on it:
Congress is playign high-stakes poker with Bush.
Bush built his career on lying and cheating.
When Bush wants Congress to draw to an inside straight, why the h*ll do they trust him?
And the question after that: do they really believe he won’t use a signing statement to say that he’s going to do what he pleases regardless of any law on this?
Is Congress that gullible? Because if so, none of them should even be in office.
(I’ve noticed the server squirrels are having a Very Bad Week. Or maybe a very good weak. *g*)
Let’s put it this way: I don’t see Obama up there saying anything at all. This is his idea of leadership? Not only no action, not even nice words?
You can encrypt your harddrive data. If I ever take my
Hah! Was just watching a rerun of NCIS lastnight. The elicit data goods were in a commodore 64 shell.
citizen norske – if there is anyway i can get myself there, i will be in denver for dnc week.
As one business leader related: A students work for B students and C students name the buildings.
you’re probably right
Raw Story just got the footage up of Feingold’s floor speech on FISA from thsi morning. Thought folks who missed it might want a peek…
We are certainly going to know who our “friends” are.
My number 64 was meant to respond to Selise at number 22, when she said:
but there was an error that caused it not to be published when it was supposed to be.
This was meant to respond to PraedorAtrebates at 28, more particularly this part of what he said:
Does anyone know if UPS or FedEx have been infiltrated yet? Do our packages get inspected before they’re allowed to reach their destinations? In what way, xray or opened and physically inspected?
Nope.
Cushing spot is down to $136.87 and the NYMEX near futures contract is $136.45. I’m wondering if the CFTC’s notification to the Dubai market that it would have to set speculation caps and report large trades in conformity with US law has spooked some of the speculators.
This is also a Wednesday and there should be an EIA report out today.
Report I read said that the decline was due to “profit taking” and had no long term implications.
Hugh,
Do you have any insight or can you point me somewhere that looks at what a physical settlement would do to the oil futures market relative to getting speculators out of the transactions?
T-
That’s my concern, too, Norske. I’m quite surprised by the number of people who come out strongly against the telecom immunity provision of FISA, but then rollover the question of taking a very strong stand against Obama for his betrayal.
Also wanted to add~~
Feingold was terrific this morning. He came out very strongly and brought up all the good reasons not to let this pass:
1. Bush broke the law.
2. FISA has been on the books for three decades. It’s a good law.
3. Very few members of the Senate are granted access to the information of the wiretapping–so they are voting on something they have little knowledge of.
4. He alluded to the past abuses of illegal wiretapping, briefly. I wished he would have gone into more detail, but I realize that he had a lot to say and very little time to say it.
selise, I believe has some links somewhere of some of the recent hearings on speculation in the futures markets and requiring buyers to actually take physical possession of the commodity has been mentioned in passing in them. For speculators in paper barrels, futures contracts are just a financial instrument. They have no interest in the commodity itself. By requiring them to take physical possession on some or all of their purchases would force out these kinds of speculators but keep those who deal in and need the real commodity.
1,697 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen SouthernDragon:
Do you know how ta get ta Citizen Raven? …I don’t know if you were here fer the last dust-up with the latte drinkin’ anti-war poster the other night but I ain’t gunna jest leave here without makin an effort ta get some a the vets in the FDL community ta try and put some truth on a couple a these holier-than-thou know-it-alls…I got kids and grandkids who can’t afford another generation of white, middle-class anti-warriors takin’ over the ass-end of what’s left of the Democratic Party.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION!!
The St. Louis Post-Dispatch had an article today on some of the behind-the-scenes dealings on FISA. One interesting item was that Bond/Blunt/Hoyer deliberately kept Rockefeller out of the loop for much of the negotiations:
I wonder if Jello Jay started getting some religion?
Yeah, that’s also my understanding. I’m just wondering what unintended consequences might be. Sounds like a good plan for most commodities to me.
I must have missed that one with all of our family hospitalization hubbub. Have been wondering where Raven was…anyone want to give me a thumbnail rundown? (While I’m sitting here on hold with a congressional office…)
That’s one of those generic explanations that explains nothing. There have been a flurry of sort of kind of actions wrt speculation, mostly with regard to reporting, but none that I have seen so far that are structural in nature like changing margins significantly.
I’ve noticed items on eBay described as “confiscated by airport security”. There’s apparently a resale market for jackknives; maybe there’s a second market for laptops. Shirts? Dresses? Suitcases? Where do ‘they’ auction off these things? But I’m sure it’s all on the up-and-up.
What post was the dust-up on? I’d like to read it. I’d also like an outline of what you’d like to cover, just to give me an idea of direction.
Raven won’t be back.
Christy, can there be somewhere on site a listing of pups attending the DNC in August, so that we can coordinate a get together?
Sorry if that’s inappropriate, I don’t know, and sorry to be OT.
Good afternoon all;
As frustrating and depressing as the complicit collusion being amply displayed today may be, it is nonetheless true that we are making ‘progress’ of a sort.
And what, you reasonably may ask, is this ‘progress’ to which I allude?
Simply, it is this; the wistful, bed-time tale taht the D’s have been blackmailed and would do the ‘right’ thing if only they dared, has gone to dreamland, and the willingness, uncoerced, of the D’s to ‘go along’ is glaringly obvious.
Recognizing the truth is always ‘progress’ …
Adding to Norske’s thoughts: Our REAL power is NOT in the monies we may lavish about, for we may ALWAYS be outspent (that it is ‘our’ money, siphoned-off or extorted, which ‘they’ use is merely of historic interest).
Our REAL power is in our numbers and what must ultimately be our willingness, however reluctant, to put our bodies and our lives ON THE LINE.
While it may diappoint many to realize this, the truth is that we are in a position analogous to the Civil Rights Movement of the late 1950’s, say about 1959 …
Holy Cow, Batman!
I am surprised by this. I thought Mukasey would stall and quibble and dance onthe head of a pin, but I didn’t think a guy like him would outright refuse to comply.
This was so NOT his reputation back NYC.
Listening to Rockefeller today, I would have to say no. It is more likely they figured he wasn’t worth negotiating with and would accept whatever they eventually came up with, which is pretty much what happened.
That was Pat throwing the WH, and by extension Mukasey, under the bus.
Oh, boy.
LHP breathing into paper bag to conteract hyperventilation
You were taken in like Scott Horton. When you learn that anyone who works for W is thoroughly corrupt and should be given no benefit of the doubt.
btw, for those of you who have been following along with the family saga, they had to re-intubate my FIL this morning. Any extra prayers or good thoughts in his direction would be very much appreciated.
Marcy has a post up now on this. Waxman, Fitzgerald, and Mukasey
My first thought was it was Chertoff
Has anyone tried reaching Raven through his Facebook page? Everybody seems to be wondering what happened to him. That’s the problem with these long distance relationships without actual physical contact. If someone goes to the hospital or has an accident or something, you may miss him but you may never know. It seems to me Raven worked for the University of Georgia? Maybe he has something on their site?
But it is entirely consistent with his testimony at his confirmation hearings. He backed the program of the Bush unilateral Executive across the board and they voted to confirm him anyway with Chuck Schumer and Diane Feinstein’s help in particular of course.
((((Christy’s FIL & Family))))
So is he mad at all of us or what?
I’ve been harping on that since day one. To my thinking, electronic and other impersonal interactions with elected officials are only so effective, as we have recently seen. A hundred vocally angry people outside an elected official’s office is powerful.
Neither Cesar Chavez nor the Viet Nam war protesters accomplished their goals by email, fax or cell phone. In the streets is in their face. I like being in their face. The staffers have to look me in the eye when they puke up their platitudes. I want them to see what I feel and think.
Che.
All I can say is that he won’t be back.
Perhaps, SD, it is only those of a certain age, not bemused by technology who truly grasp those truths.
Incidently, if you have contact with Raven, send him my “Yo!” and my most sincere regards.
;~D
You gotta understand. I praticed in front of him when he was judge. I belong to the Federal Bar Council which fosters informal communication between the federal bench and the federal bar in the Second Circuit.
This guy had a well defined reputaion in NYC, –for decades.
And it wasn’t for defying legal process, and it wasn’t for blowing deadlines without explaination. Not at all.
I called both of my Senators(Cantwell& Murray)yesterday and this morning using the ‘tool’ here, Sen. Cantwell’s office says (this morn’,yesterday the voicemail was full) she WILL support the Feingold/Dodd/Leahy admn. (sorry ,I forgot to click that link saying ’support’ in my reply,but I described it)as she is against ‘immunity’. I said thanks for that as well as her ‘cloture’ vote, of course Sen. Murray’s vote on cloture was just the opposite of Sen. Cantwell’s, but the staffer there said Sen. Murray was AGAINST immunity but had no statement on whether she was in support of this (Feingold/et al)Bill in particular. (OT I changed my password yesterday and answered the a biography ‘box’ but today that is gone and I didnt want to re-write that again..maybe it is still there somewhere? sorry if this is wrong place for this..I have followed this site ..repeatedly, daily, nightly, for a couple of years now just never did that step..great place that I told others of-including ’staffers’)
Then they can learn the hard way.
Well, I’ll say this: this place will not be the same without so many of the old timers. First Lotus and EPU, then zennurse, TRex, now OKkiddo and Raven. I think mostly caused by censorship. So be it. Maybe I’ll see you all tomorrow; don’t think I can take anymore today.
fitz comes through, but the exec can still invoke his own priviledge, he is above the law
Boxer gave what I thought was a pretty good speech on FISA on CSPAN around noon, just before they went into recess. Was my impression wrong?
Bob in HI
Scott Horton was his partner for awhile. What you both fail to appreciate is what the price of entry into W’s power structure is. Mukasey’s “tell” was how he changed his testimony on torture from one day to the next in his confirmation hearings. So even if you gave him the benefit from prior knowledge, after his confirmation performance a light bulb should have lighted up.
My experience is that if my snap judgement of a person is negative, I have a substantial record of accuracy. But not the other way, i.e., my heros have often turned out to have feet of clay. Therefore, I’m always on guard to change my mind on those sorts. Pessimistic way to live, but better than being a naive boob.
I wrote both my Illinois Senator’s about this issue. I asked both why I should support any elected official that ignores their oath of office to defend the Constitution. Durbin was firm that he would oppose it and my “junior” Senator didn’t respond again. I have been writing him for six months about this and the best I got was one response several months ago about protecting the country from terrorists.
Well if you are ever in contact with him, wish him well from us.
I come back to my mind control chip theory.
Mike Mukasey spent decades develpoing a reputation as a sticler for alw and order–rule of law–and withing days of showing up in DC, suddenly becomes a craven toady.
WTF?
How do the body snatchers covert them so quickly? And why hasn’t worked onthe like of Ruth Ginsburg or Pat Fitz? Is there a vaccine? and anti venom? a chip radio wave blocker?
I call this the Mukasey Principle in fact. No one with a shred of personal integrity would voluntarily associate him or herself with this Administration, and if they do, this can be taken as proof that they have none.
Yes she did Bob. She made a compelling argument for those that care!
Back to work.
Norske, I’ll check this thread later.
Namaste
Mukasey’s certainly a good example of the priciple. But he’s laughing all the way to the bank, with the consulting contracts he’s going to get, come January.
I think it comes down to what they are willing to sacrifice to get what they want. It appears Mukasey has sacrificed his honor and good name in order to be AG. McCain is willing to sacrifice the safety of all of our troops, by raising the risk of torture if captured, in his quest to be President. And Obama appears to be in the process of sacrificing progressives in his quest to be President.
In short, it’s greed for power.
Christy, the tool says that Senator Harkin’s position is unknown. He opposes the bill. I told him last Friday that I appreciated his previous vote against it, and his words were “it’s a Baaad bill.”
Citizen Hardin Smith:
While I was on vacation Citizen Raven got caught in a cross-fire between MarkFromIreland and a lurkin’ mod. Basically, MFI called American GI’s war criminals and when Raven stepped up, his posts in response were deleted. Then Sunday night MFI’s daughter (or sister or whoever the fuck she is) took a couple a condescendin’ slaps at me from her perch on a branch of the tree of righteousness…she couldn’t do any real damage to this old hide but she did reinforce my concern about what’s happenin’ around here ta some of the older community members, in particular vets. I want ta try one last attempt ta get a few FDL vets tagether ta put up a front page post about the politics of reintegration for returnin’ war vets and try and put a little history on FDLers about how the anti-war movement last time was coopted right out of the Democratic Party by white, middleclass unvet liberals.
I am very concerned about the loss of both oklahomakiddo (and lahoma) and Brother Raven…and I hope you are too.
Great Susan — thanks. We’ve been taking position information from calls and trying to confirm it independently with staffers. We may not have gotten a definite answer from Harkin’s office yet.
Some very tough ‘education’ is coming the way of many, SD.
When I say to people, “Look, if you want ‘change’ then you, yourself, have to put your(sweet, precious) self, literally, on the line, when push comes to shove, and there is no choice but to STAND YOUR GROUND, you must be willing to risk your skin or even your life.”
More and more the answer I receive is, “I can’t be expected to put myself or my job on the line!”
Right. But they expect someone else to do so.
And that, puts us exactly where we are at.
Those who have been ‘there’ know of what I speak.
Equally, I understand their frustration and even anger with simplistic generalization.
Once again I will say: Whenever someone feels that they have no choice but to leave, then ALL OF US ARE DIMINISHED!
And THAT should be of concern to everyone. To the degree that it is not, then our chances of ’success’ are dimished by precisely that amount, soaring semantic evasion and BULLSHIT, notwithstanding.
I just called Sen Maria Cantwell she is against FISA, Sen Patty Murray I left a message do we have an update on who is for and against FISA?
Sorry to hear that. I wasn’t at that thread. MFI gets rather opinionated at times, and it seems unfair that he got to be the only one.
Raven is not coming back:(
Norske, I want to see that front page.
No, I’ll go further, we ALL, all of us, NEED to see that front page.
Heck Norske I think you got enough material for a series of posts.
It sounds like part of what you would want to see isn’t there.
Anyway, I wish Raven well, wherever he is.
As an alltime lurker and sometime commenter, we need those roots.
I miss them all dearly.
Perhaps a wee bit of ‘clarification’ would help me understand your comment.
What, precisely, “is not there”?
Just called Casey’s office and spoke—again—to a nice polite guy named Mike. He’s been issued his talking points but really doesn’t know what they mean. I suggested that Casey’s staff use the resources of Glenn, Marcy and Balkin. I know they won’t and I know that he will vote the wrong way just because of who he is. But I made the call.
Now on to Snarlin’ Arlen. yuk.
Called Feinstein’s LA office; the staffer who answered was Rachel.
Called Boxer’s LA office; the staffer there didn’t give his name, but had me slow down while he wrote down my message. I told him my opinion of the WH occupants was so low that if it was lower, it would be in the Marianas Trench. (I think he got it – he laughed.)
If I understand what NorskeFlamethrower was writing, what you’ll be missing is Raven’s comments. If those aren’t visible, there’s an important piece missing.
It’s more he’s ignoring us. Ghu knows I’ve been e-mailing them just about every day, putting up blog, all that.
I don’t know why he thinks we’ll support anything he says.
He damned well ought to know better than to support this piece-o-crap bill.
Then the question becomes why were Raven’s comments deleted?
OK Arlen’s office, and the young person at the SJC weigh in. They have their own amendment plus he’s co-sponsor of Feingold and Bingaman. But if they go down he will vote for it anyway because it “has important provisions for natl. security . . . . .yada yada . . . ” Then he plans to go back and close the barn door after all the horses are out of it.
That’s Arlen.
Yes, that’s the question, if I understand things correctly.
Gotcha, and thanks, I agree.
But I think were Norske to be able to do such a front page, it might be that Raven and perhaps, even Kiddo, would consider returning.
Who is owed, on the face of it, ‘what’, in terms of respect and being heard, has become an increasing important ‘issue’ for me.
Part of my frustration with ‘the way things are’ is the ‘top-down’ mentallity and approach …
The Center Dems had better realize that we are not as obedient as GOP voters are.
Just spoke with Debbie Stabenow’s office again. She is voting AGAINST FISA tomorrow.
WOO HOO!!
We care about issues first.
Well, that laid it all out!, JimWhite.
WELL SAID!!!
Well said!
How many is that anyone know we need another post on this today.
Sorry to get to the Lake so late. Didn’t get to work until late because I spent all morning sending faxes of the NYT July 8 editorial to 40 Senators plus the Senate leadership and Speaker Pelosi.
(P.S. I absolutely loathe my free fax software that came with my Apple.)
Those faxes this morning followed my faxes to the same Senators on July 4th to which I attached the “Mythbusters” report from Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF). Each time I send out a fax broadcast, I send a copy to Feingold & Dodd.
Have totally given up on Barack, I bet he doesn’t even show up today on the Senate floor.
Democratic Missouri Senator Claire McCaskill’s office said she hadn’t decided on FISA. She was waiting to hear from constituents before she made up her mind.
Unfortunately, blogs are going to be like that. The rules are a little different at my place, as they are everywhere. They decide, then we decide if we want to stick around.
I think your suggestion has merit, though.
I HOPE there are ongoing posts re FISA throughout the week, or until the vote and then beyond either spanking or reveling in another win for the people!
FDL will be on top of it throughout, I’m bettin’.
“Congress is ineffective at curtailing Executive authority.” That is why stopping immunity is so important. (Only the Judiciary will restrain Executive authority.) — Sen. Specter
Good line.
Bingaman up with his amendment. yay
I’m shocked about Carl Levin. Just spoke with his office and he is not making any comments regarding how he will vote on FISA tomorrow. So I asked the clerk to urge him on my behalf to stand with Dodd and Feingold.
Sent an e-mail to my Senators listing some of the feeble excuses for the bill, and rebutting them. I think it’s important to let them know we’ve heard the excuses, and they’re not working.
Bingaman, then Casey, then Levin. Not necessarily in direct sequence, but Bingaman goes first. Amendment No. 5066.
Raven has not been banned. So whatever conspiracy theory on that is being cooked up, it is utterly and completely without foundation. Because truly, what I need to do while I sit here on hold worrying about hospitalized in-laws and preparing to haggle with yet another Congressional staffer today is a wrangle about what some commenter who got pissed at some other commenter and decided not to comment any more as a result on Sunday evening when I wasn’t even around the blog to even see what was going on at the time.
Jeebus, someone get me a drink…because I really do not have time for this today.
I just went back through every comment made over the last week, and I can’t find any comment by Raven that was moderated or spammed or banned or even edited. Something may have been momentarily pulled back to check it, but if it was, it was set free again pretty quickly because there’s no filtering of any of Raven’s comments that I can see backstage. Having not been here for the thread, it’s tough for me to say — but from where I sit looking backward, it doesn’t look like anything was pulled back. He and MfI certainly weren’t happy with each other, but both of their comments are there in the thread.
I would have bet that’s the way Arlen would go. Toothless snarlin. He knows no other way.
Hey! I shall have to visit your ‘place’.
Your rules seem most reasonable, and that fact that you’ve clearly ‘published’ them in ‘public’ fashion, is most commendable.
Again, thanks, Cujo.
Royal Oak, based on Bingaman’s giving Levin time on his side of the amendment, seems to be a safe bet that Levin is going to vote for the Bingaman amendment.
Guess everybody is going to just cave in on the parent bill even if Bingaman’s amendment doesn’t pass.
Bingaman’s got a nice big chart next to him.
(Apologies if it seems like I’m trying to horn in on Marcy’s live-blogging over on emptywheel.)
I sure hope we can stick to the FISA debate over here at FDL. It’s unfair to you to try to make you our den-mother.
I was very sorry to hear about your in-laws’s medical crises.
Obama almost spat out the word “Left”, in that press conference when he said: “..some have tagged me as [part]of the Left”.
On that day my heart broke and I knew “the Left” lost their champion.
Another one castrated by the likes of Reid, Schumer and Lieberman.
The same three that took care of Feingold last spring, REMEMBER? :(
Cujo, do they ever respond to your emails?
MfI can be a litttle, well, outspoken in his views of US military.
I’m not sure he sees any difference between the ones in Iraq who are trying to do the right thing, the ones who are responsible for crimes against Iraqis (and others), and the veterans who comment here.
I don’t believe Raven has committed or is advocating war crimes, but sometimes it reads to me like that’s what MfI is saying.
If I don’t want to be sworn at for things that I don’t support, I don’t read those posts.
oooh, Bond just said we are backing a “political move.” oooh. so unfair!
I’ve gone round and round with MfI myself a few times, so I know that. *g* Hell, Iv’e gone around with Raven a few times, too, on the same issues. They both are coming from the same place — just different vantage points — which is why it’s such a volatile discussion when it gets going. Raven and I have talked about that in the past, too.
now Bond is just wandered out of the mental ward — talking about Marine snipers who undertake great risk, compared to telecoms. that may be “attacked” but they don’t have “weapons.” WTF?
And with that, I really need to grab some groceries to get dinner going before I have to pick up The Peanut from preschool. Marcy is doing FISA coverage this afternoon so I can get a little family time. Hope everyone has a better day — I know I’m going to try to…
Bond is just such a flagrant asshole. Why doesn’t anyone call him on it?
Doesn’t he look especially garden gnomish today? *g*
Bond, which the hell is it? That phone companies will be “taken to the cleaners” financially? Or that they will be “attacked” and “drawn and quartered” in a military “physical attack” without “weapons?”
Oh, we crossed. He is just so absurd! I guess we should just kick back and giggle for a while.
You sound like you think Bond should make sense in his ramblings…
Citizen Hardin Smith:
It happened about a month ago…I’m sure ya ken find it if ya check with a couple a yer evening Hall monitors. I hope that everything goes well at the hospital, of course we are all with you on that score. However, I am saddened by your lack of concern about the loss of a couple very strong community members as a result of on going conflicts with yer staff and/or front page posters.
No one has said anything about Citizen Raven bein’ banned…he left after bein’ treated like a piece of dogshit by one of your preferred posters and yer moderator. What is most disturbing about the incident, however, is that the front page commentator was allowed to condemn all American GI’s as war criminals without any effort on the part of FDL staff to moderate his completely off the wall remarks. This has larger implications beyond this community because it is deja vu all over again… self righteous anti-war “liberals” condemning all those who serve and splitting the larger anti-war movement from mainstream politics.
My thoughts are with you at the hospital…don’t worry about what’s goin’ on here take care a bidness, this place will still be here.
my C-SPAN is coming through Windows Media Player, and that pink shirt flashes bizarre green fluorescent stripes on each side of his white jacket. great laser show.
I wasn’t suggesting a conspiracy. It’s clear from Norske’s comment that Raven chose not to be here. Please explain where you think I implied a conspiracy and I’ll try not to do that again.
If none of his comments were deleted or altered, then it must be down to interpersonal issues.
I did a time-ordered search of this blog a week ago, and hadn’t seen anything from Raven for at least a couple of weeks previous to that search. He hasn’t been here since June 8, if Google is finding everything it should.
Yes, Republicans do have their standards and making sense is not one of them.
Sometimes. Sen. Murray’s folks seem to actually be aware of some of the contents. Not so sure about Sen. Cantwell’s, but I’m going from memory here. That’s always a bad idea.
heh. sorry. he totally rambles, then he slips into the record the letter from “Mike and Mike,” so the WH and NSA are using him as their jester.
Bingaman was back up to rebut Bond, now Casey. Only 8 minutes left for him.
just a drive by – will be back later today….. but wanted to mention that i don’t think that particular thread was the reason that raven left (if some one knows for sure i am wrong – as opposed to educated guesses – please let me know). i had a conversation with raven a few days later – he did not know that mfi is also a vet and my impression was that that had nothing to do (either temporally or in fact) with raven leaving.
but i don’t know for sure and my suggestion is that we don’t (me included) make assumptions without actually knowing what the story is. for all i know, raven is on vacation or something (although SD says otherwise).
here’s what i do know. raven hasn’t been around for some time and i miss him.
I plug away at my faxes but never get any responses. I give them one of my email addresses, but nothing comes back. So, that is a little frustrating. But I don’t have my own voting member of Congress, nor even one Senator, ‘cuz I live in D.C.
Casey was totally lame. Did he even once mention the constitution?
I miss him, too, for that matter — and his kitty pix. *g* But I wasn’t around for whatever blow-up may or may not have occurred — but a search back through comments for weeks worth of stuff on the blog isn’t showing any of his were pulled, altered or otherwise. Since that was being suggested, I thought I’d better go back and check in case there was something untoward going on — but it appears that it was not, and absent some evidence I’m missing, any suggestion that it was is wrong.
Most don’t respond to out of state letters. Sen. Kennedy’s office is the most notable exception I can think of. I seem to remember getting something from Feingold’s and Dodd’s offices once upon a time, but such responses are rare.
That’s kind of who Casey is. Mediocre at BEST.
Thank Schumer and the DSCC for choosing him for the people of PA and nixing any kind of primary. Way to go Chuck.
Citizen selise:
Raven was bace for a few weeks after the incident but I had a conversation with ‘im about it and he was pissed not only about MFI’s remarks but about the deletion of his responses. I my opinion, that incident was just another shovel of bullshit that finally overwhelmed his shit detector.
you are right, it was only two years ago but I forgot already.
Why is Casey bothering to support Bingaman? Is Levin going to vote for Bingaman’s amendment? What’s the script here?
Actually FASCIST is more correct as everyone has a rectum ;->)
”The job of Congress is not to provide the president with absolution for the deliberate and direct violation of written law — it is to uphold their oath to protect the constitution and the rule of law.” —-BUT Bond says the Constitution allows the President to do warrantless spying and that this bill will also allow it ! (yes,it is a snarky comment)
And now Rockefeller has just squarely pointed to Pelosi and Hoyer as those responsible for capitulation to Bush. And Rockefeller is raising the PAA expiration and saying the House won’t take the bill up if any amendments are passed.
ooooh, here he goes: Senator Jello Jay “extremely foreboding matters” boooga boooga boooga, if we don’t have this bill we are ALL GONNA DIE! also, the companies will withdraw in disgust (as if they can refuse to obey lawful orders to engage in surveillance)
He sounds actually nervous that these maneuvers could end up sending the bill back to the House, where it would die.
He is yelling now. Bunches of us “read all the documents in the EOB (Executive Office Bldg.)” meaning the White House. So everybody else should just shut up.
works for me.
the last part, that is.
i know he was upset about it – but the fact that he stayed for a few weeks afterwards does seem to indicate that it was not the issue that finally did it for him. i’m not saying you are wrong – but i am saying that there is evidence to the contrary. and since we don’t know for sure and raven didn’t tell us, we have no right to speak for raven – only for ourselves.
If he’s getting this exorcized over it that means he has something to fear.
We need to know what the hell he is SO afraid of.
Jello Jay…we talked about Constitutional niceities and I don’t dengrate that but we have to protect the country and he went down from there.
what is Jello Jay talking about? He’s lost me. He keeps hammering state secrets privilege, which the District Court on July 2 just overruled. The District Court presiding over the NSA Telecommunications Records Multi District Litigation just said last week that FISA “pre-empts” the state secrets privilege. Feingold made that point this morning, but Jelly Jay obviously has no clue.
Because he’s one of the ‘gang of eight’ and has primary responsiblility for the TSP occurring.
I suppose that to him, “the country” implies something less than what I think it does.
guilty conscience.
but he would not have any personal criminal or civil liability for the TSP.
Political & reputation damage, perhaps, but no personal liability. Remember, Speech and Debate Clause.
He called the bill perfection and that the Bingaman bill was going to disrupt it.
Rockefeller is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Ooops…meant to say Bingaman amendment not bill.
okay, headphones off. quorum call.
I don’t think any of them have that. The conscience is the first thing surgically removed when they take the oath of office.
Well it is a perfect sellout after all.
Really. He did seem to have his panties in a wad when he said that.
so, Deb, what do you think the script is on Bingaman’s amendment? A few Blue Dogs get a chance to look progressive, knowing it won’t pass and they can then safely vote in favor of the parent FISA bill?
I probably should go over to emptywheel to ask Marcy about Levin, he’s one of her Senators.
It appears the Telcos are getting their moneys worth from Jello Jay. I am sitting here cussing my TV and scaring my poor dog! I would really like to give a few of these guys the opportunity to spend their stimulus checks giving some Prosthodontists a bit of rush business, just to show them how the average citizen feels about being hosed like this.
Jello Jay – as mgr. of bill wants to insert more BS to contradict the lucid arguments of the opponents of the bill.
Referencing Mort Halperin piece in NYT wants it in the record.
Leahy – NO one stands above the law. The American people need to know who in the WH said to go break the law.
That would be my guess. We already start down 49—all the pigs. Add Jello Jay, DiFi, the usual Nelson (1 or 2) Landrieu, you get where this is going. Haggis will vote for the amendments and when they go down he will vote for the bill anyway.
We went into this knowing that we would go down. That doesn’t mean we don’t hold their feet to the fire. And we need to be building that fire for the long term. That is unless the coup actually is completed.
I jumped over to emptywheel
We really need to blame Harry Reid for not stopping this train wreck. He had a perfect excuse when the District Court issued a new decision in the NSA Telecoms. litigation last week — wait a minute, timeout, let’s pay attention to what the Judiciary just said about the exact thing we are voting on.
But no, Reid just rolled over.
Yes, we in Penn’s Woods are ‘represented’ by a timid middlingly mediocre
being in Casey (thanks, as you say, to the ‘wisdoms’ of the d party) and a timid piddler in the person of Specter.
It says much about the tolerance, forebearance and ‘opportunity’ this great nation affords the abidingly mediocre and essentially untalented; proving that, contrary to popular misconception, the ’streets’ for some, of ‘proper’ breeding and provenance, are, in fact, paved with gold.
Or, at least, sufficient lucre as to mitigate any sense of shame that might accompany their self-serving bullshit, passed off as patriotic conviction, as they consign our fundamental rights to the scrap heap of expediency.
Were ever a people so well-served?
“Pennsylvania”, as our license plares once proclaimed, “is a State of Mind”.
Well, at least as long as we don’t mind or haven’t any.
You know there are only about 10 Senators and 30 House members who actually believe in and are willing to defend the Constitution. That’s why I have such doubts about the strategy of electing more and better Democrats. 90% or more of the Congress is against us.
Leahy– “selling out Americans” who believe in the 4th Amendment. yow.
Any bets that Leahy and Jello will go out for a drink after the vote on the fiasco and declare bygones?
they are probably classmates, or near-classmates, in the sense of their Senate seniority. I don’t have a strong sense of their personal relationship. I doubt there is huge amount of pal’ing around while FISA is up. Remember, Leahy chairs Judiciary, which Rockefeller totally subverted by conniving directly with the White House.
So, for today, I would say ….. nope. Maybe by the time of the Dems convention in August, but not right now.
I meant to add that Rockefeller totally “sold out” Leahy. Which is why Leahy is accusing Rockefeller of “selling out Americans.”
Sound very buddy-buddy to you?
I have finished my calls to the Senators. I got through to most of the senate, including Repubs. Most calls were made to voicemail. Some of my friends and family made calls. Some are annoyed at me a bit I suspect because they did not and maybe feel guilty that I broke through some denial? Hmmmm.
And I liked the freedom on a voicemail to talk about the doublestandard Glenn brought up about if you are rich, political and/or corporate you are often not held accountable for misconduct and illegal behavior, but if you are a mere citizen you are accountable for everything. I also talked about the gang of 8 handing Bush $400 million for covert Iran operations which was a major betrayal.
So I realize many Dem friends have become apologists now for Barack. That is the majority drumbeat. And I just turned on AirAmerica to see if I could hear anything about FISA, I thought the vote was today, too, and I hear some guy named Cudy or Cubie or something talking about those d*mn FISA-istas who need to wake up and see that FISA is not important, people’s concerns with gas and money is important. It was so verbally abusive to those of us pulling at the roots of corruption. And his saying that if Barack goes after FISA they will be making a commercial about how he helped the terrorists instead of working on real problems. I thought I had Rush by mistake, but it was definitely Air America.
Yep… this stuff separates the men from the boys, the women from the girls. I thought consciousness was expanding… but gamesmanship not statesmanship has America’s respect. Sad to see how many boys and girls represent us in the senate and house, not women and men.
Sorry to go on so long. I was going to give the lake a rest from me, but I needed it today.
Just chiming in to your remarks against us all not coming to attack those who bash a GI as a criminal.
1. Not one responsible Democrat I know would ever say that.
2. I do hear that frequently among those who likely never vote anyway, or from those truyiong to destroy the Democratic party.
3. Most true Democrats agree with the US need for a strong military.
I consider my self a hard ass Progressive Lefty activist and I come here and to a few other sites because I feel on common ground and with like minds.
Don’t let a hard liner or an extreme Left wing opinion from a whacko distract and get you off point. That’s their job.
Won’t work. I don’t mean to disparage your suggestion for the supposed fix foe the commodities market, but speculators frankly, is why it works the way it does. You can’t take speculators out of the ”futures” market, and you can’t have them take possession of the commodity because it doesn’t exist at the time the contract is bought. That’s why it’s called a ”futures” contract.
Comity in the Senate is valued above everything else. They tend not to take silly things like laws and votes too seriously if they threaten the cordiality of the club.
I’d like to believe that Leahy and other dems actually took some of this personally, but I don’t think so. There may be a few exceptions, but few and rare.
Specter back up! Reading Judge Walker’s decision — great.
I hear you; it is an oligarchy and that’s why I’ve joined http://www.constitutioncampaign.org/.
Don’t believe in PDA; one cannot use a rotten apple to bake a good aplle pie.
Looks like I missed the allocation of time to Specter — I guess he is up on his own amendment. Anyone know the gist of his amendment?
Specter now going back to Judge Walker’s decision two years ago which was overturned and the Supremes refused to review.
“Without judicial review there is no way to effectuate constitutional doctrine of separation of powers….” Good stuff.
“people’s concerns with gas and money is important”; this is EXACTLY why this country is in the shape it is; mammon is more important than principle.
That was supposed to be a response to Hugh@78. That’s the second time I’ve had a comment go wrong or disappear into the ether today. Lot of problems with this website lately.
The guys at NSA must be working overtime today.
Specter just blew the dog-whistle: he will support the final FISA bill even if he cannot “improve” it.
Chiming in as an ex commodity broker; ’speculators’ are essential to the ‘futures’ markets as the provide the capital for the producers to use as a ‘hedge’. It is under Chris Cox (ex Repub from CA’s appointed by Bush that the rules associated with the number of contracts that can be held by ’speculators’ was changed and has led to the current imbalances).
I’ll just stay over at emptywheel until this is over. Whitehouse up!
Citizen hazmag:
I AM an extreme left-winger and I’m here ta tell ya that it wasn’t the “extreme left wing” that alienated, marginalized and ostracized veterans after Vietnam…it was a coalition of wingnuts and “liberals”…the “wingnuts by their silence and the “liberals” inside the Democratic Party by their actions.
MarkFromIreland may or may not be left-wing, that ain’t the point…he is poundin’ on GI veterans to elevate himself above the taint of moral responsibility for the horror of war…his daughter (or sister or wife or whoever the hell Siun is) is another example of those who are usin’ the anti-war movement to advance their own politics and steppin’ over GI vets to remove themselves from moral responsibility. But it ain’t possible, EVERYone is guilty if they are citizens of the US, no one escapes and no one can experience what veterans or Iraqia experience.
yep. That’s Snarllin’. It’s what he’s known for.
Citizen selise:
It was just another shovel in the load that he finally got tired of…
I’m not talking about removing all speculators from the market just reducing the influence of those who are engaged in paper vs. real speculation. A futures contract is an obligation to sell a fixed quantity of a commodity at a fixed price at a future date. Requiring the purchaser to take physical possession of the commodity so purchased at the agreed upon future date would shake out a lot of the paper speculation. They would have to invest in storage capacity and they would have to eventually find a buyer, all the time they are doing this they are losing money because their money has been tied up in the physical commodity.
Norsek, fwiw, MarkFromIreland is an Irish citizen and has spent significant time on the ground in Irak working in humanitarian roles.
He and his son and family know first-hand exactly what they are speaking of when they talk about the actions of the US military in Irak. It is information that most folks here in the US have no real desire to confront as it requires as to examine our own complicity in this mess
My point is that when you “buy” a futures contract, the commodity at the time you buy the contract is not available. Why do I need storage for a bushel of Winter wheat in August? I don’t, because it’s still in the ground on the farmer’s back 40.
The speculator is helping that farmer, and the miller who turns that wheat into flower to stabilize the market and help those people be around next year for another crop.
The market needs those speculators, just like they need the farmers and the millers. That’s why it all came into being in the first place.
dakine01:
Whatever MFI’s nationality or his politics, it doesn’t change a thing I said about ‘im…in fact it makes his self righteousness about war and morality even MORE hypocritical. Anyone who has experienced the reality of war from ANY side will NOT peach moral purity or condemn ANYone else who has experienced the same or they expose themselves as self-righteous hypocrites who have another agenda.
Two separate issues and time frames here. The dust-up Norske was talking about did not involve Raven. He hasn’t commented in probably a month or close to it. Norske was talking about something else and was hoping that Raven would be involved in his project about a vet’s post, 2 separate issues. Others were also asking if Raven was around and I relayed what I could based on my personal knowledge.
My response apparently disappeared. You may not need it in August but you will when you take delivery or rent storage for it. The price discovery function of speculators simply no longer functions in most commodity futures markets. So the market doesn’t need “those” speculators at all who view commodities not as commodities but as financial instruments. I get the feeling that you are mistaking the traditional function of a futures market with what is actually happening in commodities futures markets now.
I’m a vietnam era vet who had friends killed over in ‘Nam. Bottomline is over 50,000 brave souls gave their life for this government and had their lives wasted. And now the same thing is happening in Iraq.
And that number doesn’t include the number maimed mentally or physically just like in ‘Nam.
“So the market doesn’t need “those” speculators at all who view commodities not as commodities but as financial instruments. ” …..Well said.
Let’s not forget Risk and it’s distribution. Futures markets allow farmers to distribute the risk of their crop to other in the market who are willing to accept it ( for a price). The appetite to purchase risk (in order to gain profit)is what we see when specualtion is called out.
Okay, help me understand this a little more if you will.
Physical settlement would happen at the expiration date of the futures contract. Not at the time the contract is sold.
Nothing is ever simple but why is this not possible?
The producer sells the futures contract to the buyer who has to take delivery upon expiration.
Exactly, Brother ubetchaiam…and anyone who calls any of us “war criminals” because of our service does not deserve to be treated as a serious human bein’. Every Nam vet carries the burden and wounds of that experience on his soul forever and no one has the right to call anyone who served on the ground a war criminal by virtue of their service.
“Let’s not forget Risk and it’s distribution”; THAT is the whole justification for the ‘futures’(and stock options) markets.
MFI has -apparently- forgotten all the U.S. citizens that DID protest the invasion (one could see it coming just from the amount of buildup and the bucks associated with such a buildup, except the Congress I guess).
MFI does have a certain point that there is blood on the hands of American’s but it isn’t solely on GI’s and ESPECIALLY NOT ON ALL GI’S.(Bad apples are in every organization).
I’m calling my Senators, but here’s something I found most satisfying in my own small mind. Having recently received an email donation message from the ObamaBlog, I was self satisfied to respond in this small minded way to the “unsubscribe” action page:
Petty, I know, but I got as good a feeling out of that as I have waiting on hold for Normy Coleman’s office messaging system (which will certainly fall on deaf ears).
Believe it or not, that SELDOM happens. Please don’t forget all the Intermediaries such as Cargill. Or the use of options to offsset future contract positions.
And apparently Obama is not going to use his oratory power on the floor to support the Dodd/Feingold/Leahy or any other amendment. But ‘it’s ok’ that we disagree.
True, Norske, true …
And those creatures who are truly CRIMINAL, whether pipsqueaks like Calley or prancing nincompoops like Bu$h, ALWAYS need to be held accountable.
Again, I want to see your prospective post or posts, because we all have need of understanding far more than is comfortable …
The latest Winter Soldier gatherings have revealed that senior officers have instilled a particular “attitude” among their troops, one that would shock most who heard it. This attitude originated in Washington and has filtered down to the groundpounder. If any should stand accused of war crimes it is the civilian leadership in the Pentagon and White House, not the troops who do as they’re told or face the consequences.
I mentioned all of that to him once and he told me “obviously I wasn’t doing enough”. btw, I too am a veteran of that era and on that particular night CTut & myself both got a little excited.
Precisely.
Oil is $140 a barrel because of supply/demand AND an assessment of risk that the barrel can be delivered in the future. The market factors in such things as hurricanes, guerillas in Nigeria taking over producing wells etc.
Absolutely but the Military Commissions ACt absolved them of any such liability.
Not even remotely close to the truth. If you want a more detailed look at this, I wrote an entry to my Bush scandals list about crude oil futures at 365. You can access it by clicking on my name.
No, it is because of the rule change that allows for those who would use the futures market to hedge other financial instruments with future contract options to not have the position restriction limits that are applied to those classified as ’speculators’.
And thus, the ‘LAW’ becomes the means by which truth and justice are clubbed into submission, and thereby become mere words, meaning nothing …
I wonder what would constitute “doing enough”. Warner can’t work on cars anymore and shouldn’t be in the Congress either because his clarity of reason is gone.
The administration has taken great pains to ensure that whatever happens only those at the lowest level will face any consequences for the policies initiated by the civilian or military leadership.
That said, the defendants at Nuremberg could not use policies implemented by either Hitler or the Reichstag as a defense, the “I was only following orders” defense.
We know how this administration feels about the rule of law.
Will check it out.
Thanks — that’s really helpful. Because I was seeing comments from him a bit after that, and it wasn’t matching up with him leaving then — and I was confused. So that helps me. I wasn’t around for whatever happened, and had been wondering where he was myself. With all the family stuff we’ve been dealing with the last few weeks, I just haven’t had the usual time online that I normally log, so I’d missed whatever it was. Do tell Raven howdy for me if you all are corresponding, and that I hope his newest tiger is doing well, settling in…
Christy, I messaged him after missing him a while. Checking the date it was 6/27
He said he was “spending too much time mad & life was too short”.
Hopefully we can lure him back when all of the election emotionalism chills out.
I’ve called my senators and registered my opinion. Not that it matters. Why do our duly elected senators have to be prompted by thousands to do the right thing? Why is the constitution optional?
Well it’s a bit late in the day now, I couldn’t call my senators (Calif) any earlier –
good news, I think: Barbara Boxer’s voicemail was FULL, both the main ‘leave comments’ box and the ‘office’ box. That must mean a lot of people were calling.
However: Diane Feinstein’s voicemail gave no opportunity to leave a message, simply saying [sic] “if it’s important, try reaching one of our California offices; thanks for calling” (click)
Gee, “thanks” for being so “accessible”, DiFi! (MAN I hope some other Dem runs against her when she’s up for re-election.)
Anyway, I will try calling them again in the morning.
Here’s hoping for signs of sanity, backbone, etc. by the Dems -