1?

Hi Ian. Now I’ll read.

Jus Cogens!

And while we talk big about citizen participation, in practice we won’t even let citizens join up to save their own communities.

Do people trust their neighbors any more than they do govt agencies? Heard something the other day about how few of us even know more than one of the neighbors in our apt complex, on our floor, or on our block.

Ian, you hit on something that does not merely apply to disasters.

Long ago, candidates for office had campaigns primarily run by volunteers. Oh, they might hire a direct mail house, or a pollster, but the direction–the policy making– of the campaign came from people who gravitated toward a candidate.

Where once political consultants were merely product or service vendors, now they are the campaign managers and policy people.

And we see how well that’s been working out.

Heard something the other day about how few of us even know more than one of the neighbors in our apt complex, on our floor, or on our block.

One of the happy side effects of being politically engaged is that you get to know ALL you neighbors from all that door to door canvasing and lit drops. *g*

Howareya Betsy? How’s Cassie?

Erm, no Ian. As a trained volunteer firefighter, the last thing I want is someone untrained, questionable fitness and unwilling to back me up when I have to go in and attack the fire.

I am doing well LHP. Cassie’s off to Cornell with my folks for her summer program. Exciting stuff.

TexTeen comes home from Mt Rushmore with the other grandparents on Tuesday.

Question? What about digging those trenches and clearing brush for a fire stop? It’s not on the battle lines as it were, but it frees up trained personnel to go do their thing

I remember the days when local volunteers did everything – even for presidential races. The materials would be shipped in but we got the mailings out. There’s nothing more fun or bonding than to have 30 or 40 people working together for 10 or 12 hours a day. We all met at every campaign. These days they have people come in who don’t know one person in the community, they all wear suits, and do everything on a computer. Not people friendly.

Tell that to the 16 yr old kids who are trying to volunteer! They show up in groups of 2 or 3 and have a hard time finding things to do.

I do think that lawsuits worry governments. Also, there is the problem of someone who is too sick for heavy work, but may be forced to do it. The other thing is that many professionals want to guard their territory. If just anyone can do it, then the professionals may not be as needed.

That’s what I mean. Apparently warm bodies are not only not needed but sorta looked down on. When that started to happen I got out of politics. These “suits” were about 30 years younger than me and just “knew” everything. Didn’t see any need to meet the local people.

I understand that sentiment, but question: are you from California? California is on fire. Trained or not, we need people to throw up firebreaks and hose down rooftops and all of the other simple things that go on when fighting a wildfire near populous areas. The Fed won’t help, California can’t do it, so who’s left? The citizens.

I think that is Twain’s point, that campaigns don’t really seem to want or know how to use volunteers anymore.

A candidate who can attract a lot of volunteers obviously demonstrates a level of grass roots support among his constituency.

These days, instead of recruiting–and listening to feedback from–volunteers, candidates just raise truckloads of cash and hire people to do the things that volunteers used to do.

As long as you have donors, you don’t need or feel accountable to your constituents

EUP’d: draft of open letter to Obama from the Obama FISA group.

Speaking of Government not doing its job.

Ian,
We usually have fires in my area of Northeast Washington every summer and early fall. A fatal traffic accident caused a fire a few years ago a few miles from where I live. Local loggers moved heavy dozers in to put fire breaks around threatened houses. Once the fire commander arrived he ordered the loggers to leave, even though they didn’t have the equipment on hand to protect the houses.

The whole process is broken. Repeatedly, as a fire escalates, there is a stand down as the next level of incident command takes over, allowing a fire to grow even bigger. Right now, the larger the fire the more money the folks fighting the fire get in the federal system. State and local guys don’t get any more money if the fire gets larger, so they are more apt to put it out and not let it get larger.

There is the additional problem where forest management, i.e. thinning and logging, is not allowed. The Forest Service deals with this problem by allowing fires to burn areas they aren’t allowed to manage properly. Unfortunately, if your land is near federal land, they will let it burn also. A friend of my husband’s has fought fires for over 40 years. We hear a lot about how this process works or actually doesn’t work.

In a teeny rural community like mine, you don’t see many governmental folks, other than the ones who live here (a county supervisor, mayor and council). We have a volunteer fire department. For fires of any size, they rely on other volunteer fire departments to back them up. They will not allow anyone to get close to a fire they are working on. It’s a distraction from the task, worrying about whether another citizen could be getting in trouble. But people show up anyway, in case they are needed for some task you don’t need to be suited up for.

During last year’s five-day winter power outage, and during the recent flooding, we were mostly on our own. We help each other to stay warm or fill sandbags because we know better than to expect the National Guard anytime soon.

To what extent do sites like this impact the importance of ‘geographical’ community?

I would guess those are the primary factors. It would seem difficult to pass a blanket law which did away with liability and damage suits. The devil would be in the details. What kind of conditions would have to exist before such a law would go into effect, etc. Then the suits would be over whether those situations actually existed. It would seem that the ACLU and other organizations would most often be on the side of the individual’s right to file suit against the government.

Part and parcel of the ‘conservative’ ReichWing scum who determined long ago that they had to convince the citizenry that ‘government is the problem…’. They succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Even the ‘Democrat’ Party now holds this idiotic position.

As our economy fails, just as our schools and military have failed one has to wonder at what point the majority will say ‘Enough…’ and demand a change in direction. Will it happen in time or will Jared Diamond’s book ‘Collapse’ prove prescient.

No one knows.

Does anyone care? Its seems doubtful at this point but there are signs that the mass of the people is running out of patience.

As they run out of money.

Boy do I ever agree with this. Look at Obama. He gets his money from people, like us, who want a change from the failures of the incumbent. He seems to think he doesn’t owe us anything for those contributions, or the hours and weeks of work done by his volunteers. Now that HRC is out of the race, he is tapping the really big money she had cordoned off, and he doesn’t care about us or our issues, as you yourself persuasively demonstrated on FISA.

After the recent oil tanker accident in the SF Bay, our local media loudly discouraged volunteers from helping clean up the sick birds and beaches because the oil was toxic.

LHP, you have mail.

Starbuck, while I agree with your premise about who you want “getting your back”, there are literally thousands of people out there who have had some form of firefighting training… anyone who ever served onboard a ship in the Navy had to go shipboard firefighting school. I suspect that a fire department could give volunteers a short-course in what they need and turn them loose…and they’d have a base of voluteers for subsequent needs.

I remember this as being right around the time I stopped paying attention to our local media :)

While human being and hundreds of thousands of pets suffered and died in New Orleans, a caravan of hunters and fisherman from rural Louisiana showed up with 300 boats to rescue their neighbors. They were turned away. They were told it was too dangerous. Planned stupidity or not, the effect is to tell us we are not able to take care of ourselves or each other. Only big brother can do it. Problem is Big Brother can’t tie his own shoes. Big Brother is nothing but hot air. Big Brother has eaten the seed corn and we will all starve.

Off Topic:

Attention Firepups!

Netroots Nation is in Austin this year and the Central Texas Firepups would like to offer a bit of our southern hospitality to those of y’all not fortunate enough to be with us year round. *cough*

At least two of us have sofa beds, guest beds and/or kids’ bunk beds available for firepup use, and anyone still in Austin on Sunday the 20th is invited to swim with us and/or have guided tours of our area. Wangdangdoodle, who won’t be attending the conference itself, wants to hang out with visiting pups in the evenings during the conference.

For more info, contact Tex Betsy at g mail.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

If you allowed volunteers to serve their communities — or drafted them in emergencies, under a good Samaritan law that immunized them from all but intentional wrongdoing (badly shoveling isn’t the same as taking a spade to the guy who keeps annoying you) — then, Gosh-by-Golly, you’d have no public reason to demand that your village/town/city/state/country employ more Blackwater Guards.

As Katrina victims know, they don’t show up to, um, help. They show up to KEEP ORDER. Just what we need. I can’t wait until they start showing up at week-end Little League games. Nothing like a few shades and automatic weapons to keep those angry sportsdads in check, you know.

No, I fought in the Chicago suburbs. And certainly, people can hose down their own and neighbor’s houses. In a rural part of Oregon, where I am now located, I taught ordinary people what to do. What I am responding to is Ian’s concept of grabbing people out of their cars and throwing them on the fire lines. Better is to find what they can do and put them to work if they agree, and work from there. Don’t put them next to the pro.

Tex, I might could be willin’ ta use a sofa fer sleepin on. I am going down there to the conference…

That’s much more the model of the red cross shelter program I worked with in college. I had no medical training, but lots of years as a camp counselor and was studying elementary education. My job when we had a power failure and opened the shelter overnights? Late night songfests and bedtime stories for dozens at a time. And the kids slept.

email me!

We saw this in Katrina, where an incompetent FEMA wouldn’t let volunteers help

I refuse to think that was incompetence. Bush and his henchmen wanted all the poor people, especially poor people with dark skin to die. All of the policies of his maladministration, not just Katrina, point in that direction. Nothing he has done points in any other direction. At some point you just have to conclude that he is a homicidal racist. No other theory fits the facts.

I know you’re talking about Republican government. It didn’t use to be this way, until they took over and set out to prove their ideology, that government is the enemy.

Tex, you’ve got mail!

Call me an optimist, but I don’t think his motivation is genocide. I think the federal govt didn’t listen to the people at ground zero and underestimated the problem. At least I hope (this is sick) that was the case. I’d hate to think or CiC is a racist neo-facist. If that’s the case, we’re a lot worse off than I’ve thought. I’ve just assumed he was stupid all these years.

and we are the government. Why do republicans hate human beings?

If the good folks in California who are losing their homes to wildfires (and that is a tragedy) want to lay a good part of their troubles at someones door, they ought to go Howard Jarvis’ grave and leave carbonized ruins of their houses.

In California he went on to lead the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Association, he spearheaded Proposition 13, the property tax-cutting initiative in California in 1978 which slashed property taxes by fifty-seven percent and initiated a national tax revolt.

I was in California when that madness began, and the more sane among us wondered what would happen on the day when the services provided by the government were no longer available because there was no money to pay for adequate response.

I guess that the folks whose homes are now gone, would perhaps in hindsight, be more than willing to pay some nominal amount of increased taxes if it had meant preservation of their property. Or maybe not… it’s hard to tell anymore.

He/they are not stupid. He/they have looted the treasury and ransacked the country. They do not care about 99% of anything except 100% of their own well being.

Betsy, did you send it to the gmail account? proploosehead?

cause I don’t see it

nope. to a yahoo addy, but will forward to this one

xzakly. school system was killed off at the same time. forkers. Jarvis was the original “drown the gov. in bathtubber”. Greedy pricks, all.

Volunteering used to be the quintessential American gig, a fact of life and citizenship. We weren’t alone in practicing it, but we used to define ourselves through such attributes.

Do we now just write a check, or harrumph the inclination away? Has volunteerism gone the way of little houses on the prairie, replaced by gated communities and the GOP’s me-onlyism? I don’t think so. Jimmy Carter’s not the only person, rich or poor, guy or gal, white or black, who helps others learn to do new things to house and help themselves.

(For those with a sense of humor, watch again the X-File episode, season six or seven, where Scully and Mulder play Rob and Laura Petrie in a Twilight Zone version of a gated Californian community. What we give up for security often has an ugly, darker side.)

Volunteering isn’t about living in world of cola soft drinks, where we’d all like to teach the world to sing and give up our differences and our pet irrationalities. It’s just recognizing the mutuality needed in a social world. A lyric in Meredith Willson’s Music Man has it right: Iowans, hawk-eyed Iowans, could stand touching noses and never see eye to eye, but they’d give you the shirt off their back.

I remember when I was a kid, if a fire started, the shovels were loaded into the car, and everyone met at the park. All the dads (probably big boys too) gathered up the shovels and jumped into the back of a pick up truck (not everyone had a truck back then) and headed for the hills.

My father was one of a handful of people who refused the evac orders when the 2000 fire (started by the gov’t) burned the town. He saved his business and was going around town with a 50 gallon drum of water on his truck putting out small fires. If you refuse the order to leave you are under “house arrest” and subject to incarceration if you leave your home.

At age 77, they arrested him for disobeying the order of an officer (to “go home”). It made national news.

I had a No on Proposition 13 bumper sticker back then. I was blown away when I saw one on a shiny new Jaguar.

I’ll be in Austin, and look forward to meeting new pups and seeing the folks I met last year. (Hi TexB!)

Hey, Loo Hoo… gonna be in Austin too! (thanx Tex!!!)

Hey Loo Hoo!

We’ll have to plan a get-together before the 20th…egregious won’t be there to do the planning.

David Neiwart and Gnome de Plume are already cooking something up. I’ll add you to the list!

The FED has created our present Recession, and probable Depression.

Still, Paulson, Bernanke, and our International Shadow Government want Congress to increase the power of the FED.

This power grab is sure to cost the taxpayers a lot more money. This is insane.

While I agree with Ian’s pragmatic interest in mobilising effective, and ‘effective’ is the key word, voluteers, my personal experience, though in the relatively ‘mild’ forest fires of Pennsylvania, would agree with Starbucks concern, it’s quite enough to have some idea ‘what’ to ‘do’ while being aware of as much of the ‘big’ picture of the moment as possible, it is a serious diversion to worry about the competence and safety of those, who while willing to help, have NO business being where they become a liability.

Solution: Let us have widespread training, by way of genuine Public Service, perhaps as an option to a renewed military draft. Not just for fighting fires, but for real, and increasingly likely, environmental disasters.(This would also put ‘blackwater’ types in their proper place, nowhere near real people, and playing with rubber toys in Grover’s bathtub)

The most dedicated firefighters whom I know, would definitely value the useful ‘back-up’ assistance of those who know what they are doing, and equally important, realize when they are dangerously out of their depth.

Sounds good.

I remember when the big humongous 18-wheelers that were filled with ice for the people affected by Katrina were sent to the state of Maine at some point. Those trucks sat up here for a long time and I’m sure the oil industry was ecstatic because of the amount of fuel they used to drive all the way up here and then have to idle for weeks to keep the ice from freezing. Hey those Oil Maggots know how to make money, huh! They love disasters.

http://www.commondreams.org/he…..920-09.htm

That’s the most effective and sensible plan I’ve heard anywhere. I’ve thought about taking paramedics training for the reason of being prepared in emergencies, but i’m not a natural nurse person, don’t really know if I could handle that. i know, woos.

but training and mobilizing neighborhood by neighborhood is an excellent idea. Who would do the training however, if trying to be of help and service is prohibited?

Well, whose country is this, afterall.

We have met the ’solution’ and it is us. (Thanks, Pogo!!!)

I’m not sure I can go yet. I have family in Austin and would stay with my cousin there, but sure would love to meet up with other pups. I wanted to go to the convention in DenCo, but was told I couldn’t get in, so this would be Plan B. I travel with 2 dogs, fixed and well behaved but I’m pretty sure my cousin could keep them if I went to a meet up.
:)

Betsy I got the email. Thank you so much for the update!

Cool! I’d love to meet you.

I know we in my household have contingency plans that don’t include any kind of governmental help. I think Katrina taught us everything we need to know about THAT.
Forever.

Oh me to you Loo Hoo! It’d be wonderful to be with you guys in R/T.
:)

We saw this in Katrina, where an incompetent FEMA wouldn’t let volunteers help.

I recall reading about some courageous folks who drove in from all over the country and helped to bring people to dry land after bypassing the government roadblocks.

and it’s MY country! They may not think so anymore, but I was born with that right and haven’t given up one iota of it! I can see fighting the authorities to be able to fight for my home. It’s what America has come to. I had hopes on this issue having heard Obama speak, but now I’m not sure anymore. About him or anything he’s said in the past.

OT- Up at Nieman Watchdog via C&L:

Army officers are tremendously stressed out, for a lot of obvious reasons. But they don’t like complaining to reporters. A retired Army colonel looks at the pressures created by fighting two wars at the same time – and suggests a few ways members of the media can get beleaguered officers to open up.

yeah! got to see that in action when Sean Penn went in. I didn’t see anyone stopping him. Too many cameras rolling I’m thinkin’.

This is a sign of the times. San Diego freeways are stop and go any time of the day. But on July 4th, heading from North County to San Diego, there was never a slow down. Not at the beaches, and not going past the Del Mar Fair. Sailed by at 70 MPH. It was just unbelievable, because during the fair and during the races, traffic normally comes to a complete stop. 4th of July is normally the busiest day at the fair. It was haunting.

Great post! I am happy to report from the smoky central coast of CA the intrepid, albeit exhausted fire-fighters in Big Sur and hand full of remaining residents are way too smart for bumbling federal bureaucrats. Allow me share this this email from the front:

fire conditions here:
Last night we went to bed after watching from the bridge as flames made their way down Hot Springs
Canyon — still over a half mile away, roughly near our water source. Fog rolled in and the fire banked down around 2 a.m., at which point a strong glow in the sky from the southeast told us that the backfires from Dolan Ridge, two miles to the south of Esalen, had been lit and were doing their job.

This morning we woke to somewhat worsened smoke conditions, and the sun fiery red in a brownish sky — as well as the news that the fire had jumped the firebreak at Dolan, but had been contained by emergency firefighter teams to the south. At last report, the southern perimeter Dolan line is holding — and sending the fire this way.

We’re also told that mandatory evacuation has now been extended all the way north to Palo Colorado Canyon, and on both sides of the road now, as fire comes down behind Ventana and Pfeiffer Big Sur State Park. We’re further told that fire above that point has jumped the road to the west side in places, up in the heavily forested valley of the Big Sur Village area. Several more homes have now been lost in that area as well. Esalen community members Carolyn Shearer and Eduardo Eizner have now been evacuated from that sector with their family; we’re told that Sydney and Steve Beck and also Steve Harper are declining evacuation so far and staying at their properties.

Up above the marine layer a northwest wind has picked up and was reported gusting in the 20-35 mph range last night, meaning that the fire is active and on the move in our direction. At the same time through the morning a small offshore turnaround breeze very locally here has still slowed the advance down Hot Springs Canyon.

Last night an overnight detail was actually stationed here on the main property, due to predictions of a Santa Ana wind (strongly out of the hot East) after midnight, which is the one thing that could conceivably drive a real firestorm down the canyon. That however failed to develop, and things quieted down. Fire is still quite active, though slow, in Hot Springs Canyon, but much damped down in Buck Creek and Burns Creek (South Coast) Canyons just to the north.

our professional firefighter guests:
An interesting evolution of support, bureaucracy, and workarounds. I’ve written before about the fine crew we’ve had staying at South Coast Center, taking breakfast and lunch with us, and availing themselves of our shower and laundry conditions — as well as the bond of appreciation and respect developing in both directions between crew and community here.

Well, beginning two nights ago we were informed that the crew would be pulled out of South Coast, — not for strategic reasons but for possible violation of the “no gratuities” rules in their professional code. You can understand it if you think about it: public safety officials such as police and fire can’t accept anything, beyond a “de minimis” cup of coffee here and there, from any of the citizens they’re protecting, as obviously this could lead to the appearance or the reality of differential protection. Professional, arm’s-length relationships, that’s the code.

Of course that’s not Big Sur. On one level I’d hate to think what would happen to the homeowner in this neck of the woods who was known or thought to have secured differential protection from the public service firefighters — federal or volunteer local, either one! Let’s just say that their homes would be regarded as in ongoing danger…..

But putting it positively, that’s just not how things work around here. Our fire brigade is voluntary, and nobody would dream of questioning their ethical code and standards. Neighbors help neighbors here. Everybody turns up to help the most exposed person — and then they go back to working on their own place. Of course you can’t explain that to the federal government….

The requirement, our firefighter guests told us, is that they pay a mandatory minimum rate of $84 per room per night, or stay in their trucks or tents, as provided. And this is out of their own pockets — no expense accounts, because they’re already provided with government-issue tents (and dinner rations….). Same thing for dinner: they pay a certain minimum, or they’re not allowed to eat here.

The lodge felt empty two nights ago without our 22 guests — and then unexpectedly they showed up, to cheers and cries of welcome home. But their chief gave us his personal check for dinner. We can’t refuse the check, or we throw them into violation. (Mind you, these people are very well paid, and on a 24-hour-a-day basis for the season. But that extra money in many cases is what lifts them to a real living family wage, for their own lives and families somewhere back home. Not to mention that they’re putting their lives in danger to earn it).

What we can do — strictly on a non quid-pro-quo basis — is to make it clear to them that we are sequestering this money, for as long as they’re here, and afterwards we will seek their counsel on where best to redirect that money, to an appropriate firefighting benefit fund or station.

Make no mistake: Esalen is facing a serious financial challenge due to our closing (now in force at least through July 11); and we will not be solving that challenge on the backs of our dedicated men and women of the firefighting services.

Last night we didn’t see them for dinner (luckily Matt had been notified, and didn’t cook for them!). Then later that night they turned up after all, having been burned out of their tent camp in Pfeiffer Big Sur State Park. Because it was an emergency evac for them, they weren’t required to pay for that one night.

This morning they brought another check for tonight, along with the news that their own Chief would be joining them tonight (with his check) — and that they would be staying with us again nightly for the duration (till their redeployment elsewhere, currently scheduled for Sunday). Same basis — we take the money, sequester it, and hold it for charitable redirection later.

conditions going forward:
The professionals were just here, informing us that conditions are sunnier and drier now (or would be sunnier, if not for the smoke), and we can expect more action today and tomorrow. Timing is right for us — property clearing will be finished sometime today. Meanwhile the professional crew here are “itching to fight fire,” in the words of their Chief. Waiting is invaluable — and hard on the nerves.

Our greatest immediate threat is to our main waterline, coming down the Canyon. The fire is now quite active along that line. Our backup is first the 80,000 gallons we have stored in the tanks, which are kept topped off at all times so far — plus the creek itself, which we can pump out of if need be. Going forward, we also have a separate galvanized metal line fed by a separate spring source in the Canyon, yielding approx 13 gallons per minute, which did survive the Rat Creek fire in 85. This line will carry the human needs of the property even after reopening — though not the irrigation we normally conduct for crops and ornamentals this time of year. Creek water could also be run through the filtering system later on, if necessary in an extended outage.

We’re told we may lose phones any time today or going forward. We have a separate small generator on the T-1 line, to keep that up. We’re assessing today how long our propane and diesel fuel can carry us on property, if the mandatory closings persist beyond this week — and then whether Montgomery London of the Big Sur Fire Brigade can get permission to take our local fire vehicle down to the checkpoint and convoy a fuel delivery up here after that. (Already we’re hearing, “but we told those guys to leave — that’s what Mandatory Evac means.” But we’re working on locating a source or level that will give us a different answer).

For now, our gratitute goes to all who are stepping forward to support Esalen at this time of challenge. And our prayers for all those who are facing losses, here in Big Sur and as always, through our whole human family as well.

— Gordon
Gordon Wheeler, President/CEO, Esalen Institute

This sums up how the government Can’t Find The Way.

“Do people trust their neighbors any more than they do govt agencies?”

Not since 9/11, when our fearful leader taught us not to trust anyone, and to report on any suspicious activity.

A nation built on fear will not long survive. What was the quote? Something like “We don’t trust anyone, and I’m beginning to wonder about you.”

Bob in HI

did someone announce the new post and i missed it?
http://firedoglake.com/2008/07…..-there-is/

I hasten to add our popular and true progressive Democrat Congressman Sam Farr is on scene on the front lines of the huge fire and keeping the bumbling federal bureaucrats present in line and accountable.

(((NPB)))

Here in Portland, there is a neighborhood training program for big emergencies, and I applaud it. All your concerns for “situation conscription” are mine as well. You just made my job hugely harder by doing that.

If I were forced to take on a neophyte, I would, for instance, if handling a hose line, NOT have him back me up but I would crash course how to hold and use a nozzle then back him up!

Npb, thanks for posting the email. I have wonderful memories of Esalen. Take care. We’ve had a couple of clear days, but the smoke has filled the air again here east of Chico. Never have been so thankful for blue skies til now! What a glorious sight!

In California the first politician, of any hue, who suggests raising taxes is marked for (political) death.

Our firefighters are performing heroically, but, no taxes = not enough firefighting resources.

And summer’s only begun.

Jarvit’s gave you folks the gift there that keeps on giving. I saw the before and after in your State. Prop 13 was disastrous! But it isn’t only California, every American wants everything for nothing. It’s the same general mentality that allows the Walmart type exploitation to be acceptable. Low prices at any cost.

They still haven’t replaced those fire fighting planes either, have they?

Did Esalen burn?

I taught a workshop there some years back.

Volunteering used to be the quintessential American gig, a fact of life and citizenship. We weren’t alone in practicing it, but we used to define ourselves through such attributes.

De Toqueville wrote about this as being something Americans did that had been lost in Europe (I suspect it occurred when the old Celtic systems were supplanted by feudal hierarchies). Now we are going to the feudal model…

When I was in college they used to have clubs run films and concerts for $$$. Then some administrator got the great idea that they could give rent-a-cop jobs to the jocks who didn’t have scholarships if they took the volunteer positions of selling tickets and security away from the clubs themselves. Clubs ended up not making any more $$$, since they had to pay for the “Student Cops”…and sometimes these would actually disrupt the films or concerts by acting as power-crazed thugs or simply because the activities/music/film content didn’t jibe with their conservative politics. Eventually most of these events moved off campus.

BTW That same University had a volunteer fire Department and trained several hundred students to fight fires each summer.

At this writing Esalen is still standing. Improved weather conditions lets the skeleton crew focus on continuing the arduous task of clearing out brush reinforcing the firebreaks on the property.

I would hate to think that our new-found gun rights would lead the soon-to-be disasterfied to poke the business end at any Federal official who denies them the right to pitch in in the common good or to preserve their properties. Sometimes you can see the point of those we usually call ‘gun nuts’.

I remember driving thru’ Grand Forks B.C., on my way to Nelson, and when I went in to get a 6 pack of ‘cold’ beer at a Pub it was virtually empty(with the exception of a couple of rather old ,frail looking people) and the bartender told me that if I had been 30 minutes earlier I would have been scooped up to go fight a wildfire. Quite the place to recruit ‘eh?. Oh yeah, the story was that you either went ,or went to jail and got fined as well. this was in the mid-70’s

Keep them on the backlines and use them for fire breaks. Honestly, we did it for decades.

Well, Starbuck, I did not mean to make your job harder, it is hard enough already, and while your “crash course” might be successful, I suspect that an neophyte, even one so ahem, well-trained as ‘possible’ given the scenario you suggest, would still, when the pressure was ‘on’, probably leave something yet to be desired.

Actually, there is no reason that eperienced professionals such as yourself should not be the ‘experts’ called upon to establish the requisite ’standards’ for the ‘training’ of which I speak. Such ‘training’ as I contemplate would be utterly useless actual competence were achieved and regularly revisited.

It would do the average American a world of good to be standing, holding the nozzle of a firehose in front of a person such as yourself, in a training situation.

Considerable ‘education’ would, I am certain, ensue.

I think folks underestimate people. Seriously, in BC they just grabbed people right off the roads, and used them. And it worked fine. People have become so used to this idea that you need to be a “professional” to be useful at anything. Certainly there are jobs that only trained firefighters should do, but there are also things that untrained folks can do just fine. It’s just not that hard to use a shovel.

I will grant that in the BC interior it’s rare to find someone who doesn’t know how to use an axe at least, and usually a chainsaw as well as a shovel. But again, you just ask “do you know how to use an axe? A chainsaw?”

I agree Ian.

I also think that notions of community are reinforced when common goals are shared.

When fighting fires in Penns woods, ‘county-folk’ do know which end of the stick to use.

But, some city friends of mine, who once ‘helped’ were all amazed at how HOT it got, whereupon I told them, ‘wait ’til you feel the fire suck the oxygen out of the air, then you know just how tenous this ‘life’ business can become, especially if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time …’

A competent citizenry is not beholden to ‘experts’ or the gummint.

Huh?

Would you want to take neophytes here?

http://findarticles.com/p/arti…..i_n9959287

From the article:

…”Within 60 seconds, a fire that had been of little concern to fire bosses at the Bureau of Land Management raced up steep hillsides of Gambel oak toward 49 firefighters. The fire swept over 14 elite smoke jumpers and “hotshot” firefighters, four of them women, killing them with a blast of superheated wind that literally sucked the air from their lungs.”

Ian, I agree that in the interior of BC and probably Idaho, the Oregon cascades etc there will be capable people using the tools of the firefighter competently. But your scenario indicated..”pull you aside and all men who were young enough and fit enough, were drafted.”

That certainly doesn’t indicate to me the qualifications you now indicate as being in existence. To tell the truth, if it were me with my training, I would dig in my heels and say no to such cavalier recruitment. Then I would look into the matter to see if I could actually be helpful.If so, I would volunteer for that.

Clearly, Starbuck my communication skills have quite deserted me.

I was replying to your comment @ 73.

Just so you know I hold you and what you do in high regard, and would not ever wish untrained neophytes upon anyone in your position.

I would just like more folks to understand what you do, deal with and are responsible for.

Too many assume that a firehose is just a bigger garden hose.

Nothing like wrestling with the laws of physics to enlighten one, and ‘controlling’ the nozzle of a real fire hose is eye-opening and a bit chastening for the ‘unintiated’.

Which you, most definitely, are not

One summer when I was working as a brakeman for CPR (Cdn.Pac.RR)on Vancouver Island (Esquialmalt & Nanaimo RRI–the ‘E&N’)I got a call for an ‘extra train’ for a fire prevention run. It was nothing more than our two engines, a few water tank cars (with little spigots on their sides to sprinkle water as we slowly rolled along) and our caboose, and really this felt ridiculous sprinkling water along the trackside in the heat as we were doing this to prevent sparks from wheels setting fire..PLUS there wasnt a train scheduled either coming or going on that track until the next day..we knew because it would be ‘us’ running it..and I guess it dawned on dispatch eventually because we were called to ‘turn it around’ after a few hours,(so the water tankers didnt get delivered anywhere) and standing on the back porch of the ‘cab’(definitely beautiful scenery tho’) I looked at the ground we had ’sprayed’ (sprinkle is more like it) as we rode back over it and it was hard to tell if it accomplished anything as our wheels ’squealed’ along (prime sound for when sparks fly) and I stood watching for any fire we might be sparking. Yeppers, keystone railroad..(this was ‘78)

This raises an interesting question. Just because volunteers are ordered away doesn’t mean they have to go. I doubt the national guard would shoot at them, although things can get pretty stupid. The same observation can be made about bombing Iran. Military people have already said it’s crazy, but I have a feeling if GWB gives the order, everyone will follow like sheep.

Haven’t replaced all of the planes, but they seem to have re-engined some of the twins. They’re now running turbines instead of radials.

I moved to Calif. in 78, just after Prop. 13 went into effect and I can say it was a body blow to communities everywhere. Double in San Fran where we’d had an assassination (Moscone & Milk) leading to a de-facto coup d’etat (enter Feinstein). The tone of politics switched noticeably.

I live in Ca fire country and know from experience that people staying to save a house at the risk of losing their lives is not just stupid, but also puts the lives of firefighters at risk.

A house is full of stuff that can and will be replaced. But if you cause the death of a firefighter who is trying to save your stubborn ass then you have deprived their family of a loved one.

Photos and tvees and not worth a human life.

Not sure how it’s done now, but it was a draft. You went, or you went to jail. And you would be treated very badly in jail if you refused your civic duty like that without a very good reason.

I don’t know, I grew up with a forester as my father, uncles as foresters, farmers and fishermen. A huge amount of firefighting work can be and is done behind the lines with a shovel, axe, chainsaw. Some heavy equipment helps a lot. I’d never send untrained folks into the most dangerous areas, but so often you know the fire is going to hit an area in a day or two and you just need more bodies, more men. They aren’t going to be on the front lines.

Adding an experience firefighter, and central direction to large crews of men makes a big difference. How’d you like to have 100 extra men, under central direction, preparing lines a day or two away from the leading edge of the fire? How’d you like to have multiple such crews?

But here’s the bottom line. You’d better figure out how to do it, because California doesn’t have enough money to hire enough professionals. It’s going to have to be done by amateurs, or its not going to be done. Year after year the professionals can’t do the job, becuase there aren’t enough of them. There never will be.

So, instead of saying “no”, figure out what jobs can be done by volunteers (I would never suggest an actual draft in the US); figure out what can be done by people with a little bit of training (and give it to them over the winter, a couple weekends, and enroll them in a “firefighting volunteer corps”) and start using them.

Honestly, this isnt’ a case of what “ought” to be the case in the best of all worlds. This is a matter of what the world is. And if States can’t afford to hire enough people, and they can’t, then they can either write of the forests and houses, or they can figure out some way to get the manpower that costs less.

And just like with military troops, you put the frontline professionals trained under fire, on the front lines, and you put the guys without the training in the back. Yes, I know that sometimes fires break out and there is some risk, but life is risk and the risk is not huge if it’s managed.

Refuse to manage it, but also not have enough resources to save people from losing everyting, and have them know it, and more and more will stay and disobey orders. Because it may just be “stuff” but for a lot of people losing their houses, farms and everything they own is a disaster. It may just be “stuff” but losing it could plunge them into poverty.