This week US forces censored an award winning photojournalist – continuing the efforts to make certain we do not see the real results of our actions in Iraq. Zoriah was embedded with a Marine unit and by sheer chance was a block away with one unit when another was caught up in a suicide bombing in Anbar:
My hands still shake and my heart pounds despite my fatigue. A combination of depression, fear, and adrenaline makes my thoughts race with the realization that a simple decision was the only thing that seperated me from a body count that grows daily. I look at the images I took on the 26th of June, and realize they do nothing to capture the emotion of being an eyewitness to the aftermath of the Al-Qaeda suicide attack in Karmah/Garma… the smell… the sound of screams and crying.
I want you to observe and comprehend what others live through on a daily basis — to see what the Iraqi civilians and foreign soldiers see. I want people who follow my photography to understand that although I am able to bring images of war to the world in a form of art, what actually goes on here is horror. My message is not that war yields great photography. My message is: War yields human misery and suffering.
Zoriah and his unit arrived on the scene shortly after the bombing and he witnessed and photographed the aftermath – including the bodies of 4 US Marines. His photos met all standards set by the agreement embeds sign with the military but he was told to remove the images from his blog . He refused – and he is now being sent out of Iraq. We’ll have a chance to chat live with Zoriah when he returns to the US but in the meantime, his posts about this experience are essential reading. The images are graphic – but this is the reality we have created with our war and occupation of the people of Iraq.
While the military has made excuses that Zoriah’s photo’s first might upset the families and second might give away strategic information, the real reasons are clear – to hide the truth from us.
Hiding truth, making certain we do not see and do not count the realities of Iraq –leads us to become desensitized and diluted in our opposition to this occupation. How little we see – and how little our representatives are called to answer for. And with war presented as a sanitized geopolitical maneuver, we more easily move closer to more horror – this time with Iran.
Along with courageous witnesses like Zoriah, the ACLU is doing their best to uncover the truth. This week they published thousands of pages of NCIS documents – the latest results of their efforts to bring to light the killing of civilians by US forces in Iraq:
"As these files remind us, many charges of war crimes in Iraq have not seen the light of day," said Michael Pheneger, a retired Army intelligence colonel who is also a board member of the ACLU. "There are many discoveries here that should bring pause to any American who cares about this country and hopes to restore the United States’ respected role in the world. It is time to bring the facts about this war into the sunlight and end practices that go against our laws and national values."
The files are available here and the tales they uncover are another reminder of the inhumanity of our treatment of Iraqis covered up daily.
Similar crimes are also occurring in Afghanistan – and once again, the coverup is in full force. On Friday, US forces killed and wounded 15 people – all reported to be civilians – in a missile strike in Nuristan province. Karzai was in the midst of ordering an investigation of that attack when word came that 22 people including 19 women and children in a wedding party were killed by a US missile strike in Nangarhar province:
"The wedding participants were on their way to the groom’s house," Wazir said outside the hospital, his tunic covered in blood after carrying some of those wounded.
"They stopped in a narrow location for rest. The plane came and bombed the area. There were between 80 to 90 people altogether," he said. "We have carried six of the injured to this hospital, and more might be coming. The exact number of casualties is not clear."
The response from our forces:
Coalition media officer Capt Christian Patterson told AFP they had received no reports of civilian casualties.
"It was not a wedding party, there were no women or children present," he said.
Unfortunately for Capt Patterson, several news sources have photos and video of some of the victims arriving at hospital – yet another reminder of how valuable the work of war photographers like Zoriah is – without them, even more of the truth would be hidden.
Photo credit: © Zoriah/www.zoriah.com : blog use permitted
Worth reading: Bringing Ireland to Baghdad: How the Resistance Will Eventually Kick the Americans Out by Gary Brecher and Dahr Jamail’s report on the attack on the brutal attack on Muhammad Omer by Israeli forces when Muhammed was returning home to Palestine after receiving the Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism in London – Yet another reminder of how desperate the forces of inhumanity are to silence those who try to tell the real story.
And don’t miss Laura Doty’s new blog – JustPeaceNow.
H/T+ to MadDog for links and the introduction to Zoriah!
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Thank you Siun!!
(And click on my name! I’ve finally started something!)
More disgustingness from this reprehensible administration.
Oh Laura – I meant to link you up – give me just a minute and I’ll fix that!
Good evening, siunshine. You know I digg your brutally honest posts each week.
Hi Eureka … thanks for the digg and the company each Sunday.
Dearie – all too true …
You ARE fast ES! Anyone kno what gives? i’ve dugg, it says i’ve dugg at digg, but even after hard refresh, not counted on fdl…?
Thank you for the link, Siun!
Sometimes the Digg counter is a little slow to update. But it does so eventually.
I think there is a variable lagg time, which is why we often have a couple of folks accidentally initiate more than one digg on a post.
Keep digging for FDL, it’s all good that way..)
Thank you for starting the blog – its already very good reading!
How utterly sad and hopeless. Zoriah’s black and white images almost have a timelessness, which helps the viewer understand how fucking long this has been going on for the Iraqis – since July, 1990…
ET – very good point and Zoriah captures it so well … I am looking forward to our chance to speak with him here when he is back in the States
Nice digs. I just marked in in my favorites.
Aloha, Siun! I’ll brb, Laura! ;-)
Bless you as always, Siun.
And Laura, I am really enjoying your new blog, Just Peace Now
I must Good Night, but I’ll read you both in the morning.
Goddamn it Siun, the fucking surge is working! How dare you print dirty-fucking-hippie-lefty-pinko Craptastic
.
.
.
.
.
truth like this in an endangered free media.
You should be…
proud of yourself. Great post.
I suggest sending a hyper-link to Obama while he “rethinks” his position on Iraq.
This is the secrecy we all know. Just like the banning of photos of the returning war dead, the caskets. With the pitiful excuse that showing them will upset the family. How crass? As is the family had not been upset by sending a child to war or knowing that child has died or knowing that our clown Pres. has lied to this country. What will it take for truth to come out about this Administration + demand that they pay for, account for what they have done to our country and to the Iraq and Afghan people. Dear Lord God. We have become the killers and the liars and the enemy to our own best interest and to our own people.
Dugg and spotlighted, Siun – as always – because your entries are always deserving of more attention.
So do I. I clicked through Mad Dog’s link yesterday and saw these horrible photos. I am so embarrassed to show my American passport these days.
Laura Doty, congratulations and good for you. Bookmarked. I wanted to leave a comment, but the google gizmo never remembers me…
Every last repuke should be made to view each and every one of Zoriah’s photos and all photos like them.
I think every member of the House and Senate who voted a week ago to fund the occupation into 2009 should see these photos.
Makes the Pottery Barn remark seem so stupid, esp. from a warrior.
Dugg. This ties in with Christy’s post downstairs in a way. Some of our soldiers, many of whom earn so little that their families are on food assistance, really want to feel like they are “better” than someone.
But, Jo, Obama is getting smeared with that baseless ‘rethinking’ his strategy bs… Raw Story and TPM have excellent articles on the smear job from Reuters…!
In my heart, I’m thanking each of you justpeacenow encouragers individually, but will leave this single comment to represent each heart-felt thanks, so as not to take too much away from flow of this thread. Thanks so much, folks, and, especially, thanks to those who leave comments. It’s amazing what a shot in the arm they provide!
I remember way back at the beginning when the fainthearted (even here) asked for a warning for graphic photos and descriptions and I would despair.
Not for myself so much, but for the forgotten and unseen.
We have no right to not experience the violence perpetrated in our name!
Journalism in any form (though kudos to those that persevere to bring the truth to us) can only approximate the horror of living in the hell we delivered and continue to deliver.
Thank you Siun, and bravo Laura Doty for the new spot for truth that you have made.
Thanks also for remembering Afghanistan.
Siun, do you think any of the GG crew will pop in…?
I am in awe of reporters like Dahr and Zoriah who stay faithful to what is actually going on and continue to show and tell us … they are such heroes and we desperately need them.
Maybe one night we can have a post on how to deal with the campaign. I know there is disappointment about Obama. He had inspired such high hope. Reality is setting in. Blah, blah, blah. But the race is going to be so ugly. We have had that discussion about fighting back and not wanting to be in the gutter. I never hear Rush, but I occasionally hear Ingraham; she is easy to get in the car radion. They are going to say such crazy things. OUr responses must be cogent and informed; I like that Obama is ready to answer. (I saw a picture of Cindy McCain today, and she looks like Betty Grable in a pinup. There was all that coverage about money she has spent on clothes.) I want Obama to win this race because he has worked hard to get where he is and may restore some pride to this country. I think we should garner and build a message right here as a plan with answers. We just can’t lose.
Too much is censored and too little truth is told by the western corporate media.
(The word “surge” makes me vomit.)
Thank you Dahr, Zoriah and countless others who brave and challenge the propagandists and the delicate (in)sensibilities of the sheeple.
I’m looking forward to the chat with Zoriah that was mentioned in your post. I’m 24, and currently have no less than 7 friends in Iraq or Afghanistan. To see what’s really going on, and hear from them on return, makes all of this seem even more despicable. Siun, thank you for your post. Thank you for bringing this to the larger audience here, and making it yet another talking point (fingers crossed) in the 2008 elections.
Not enough attention has been given to the few members of a free press we have left, the people telling the real story and not sucking down corporate dollars like it’s nectar from the gods. Zoriah is one of many who have been silenced. And it’s sad, because he’s one of the few that haven’t lost their way.
Amen, Rev! He might not be perfect , but, he’s far better than a third term…!
Thanks, no doubt about it. The link, from the previous post, to the NYT book review makes exactly that point as well.
How do your friends in Iraq and Afghanistan feel?
I’ve got two buddies who are gung-ho about everything, one of whom is on a second tour (side note, he drinks way too much). The others are doing what they view as a duty to their country. Essentially, “Even though the job blows, someone has to do it. Why not me?” They are all honorable men who recognize the situation for what it is, a war that can’t be won, but soldier on. The way I see it is pretty similar. If someone has to be there it should be the best we have to offer. Humanitarians, friends, and people first. Soldiers second.
If Zoriah’s words and photos were shown on TV and in newspapers, perhaps the American public would come out of their stupor. The criminal Bush/Cheeeney/Rumsfeld/Rove Cabal needs to be stopped. Period.
I don’t recall a delcaration of war. I think it’s still an ‘occupation’ — correct me if I’m wrong.
done Dugg it
I really appreciate your answer and wish for an immediate withdrawal of our forces.
Too bad we did not send in humanitarians, friends, and people first though.
;(
AUMF, Authorization to Use Military Force, set the ball rolling, no declaration of war…!
You’re right. Technically, by definition, it’s an occupation. But the men on the ground and the rest of America knows what it really is. Besides, BushCo declared war on Terror (boogah boogah!). Those darn Iraqi’s were supporting terrorists.
I’ve just ordered some of the bumperstickers the blog ‘End of the West’ designed.
‘get disappointed by someone new – Obama 08′
So true.
I hope he keeps his promise to get us out of Iraq.
Agonizing. Dugg, #14.
How come we didn’t go after Saudi Arabia, home to 15 of the 19 hijackers and the mastermind, Osama been Forgotten…!
Siun, mucho kudos! You make such a difference!
Pat Lang has a post up now over at Sic Semper Tyrannis where I thought it was again topically appropriate to give Zoriah some more blogosphere visibility, so I’ve added a comment there (should be showing up as soon as Pat moderates it) with linkage again to Zoriah’s most excellent painful truth.
And should any stray eyes from the MSM wander by here or Pat’s place (as we know they do), you folks really need to get your head out of your asses.
The Truth needs to be told. If you don’t, we fookin’ will!
Because they have a more organized military and are more generous with their oil! And the most important thing, a leader that bends to our will occasionally.
Pal Lang is one of my must reads … then again, he has real experience to draw on.
…but only if boosh will hold hands with him
Off Topic:
Attention Firepups!
Netroots Nation is in Austin this year and the Central Texas Firepups would like to offer a bit of our southern hospitality to those of y’all not fortunate enough to be with us year round. *cough*
At least two of us have sofa beds, guest beds and/or kids’ bunk beds available for firepup use, and anyone still in Austin on Sunday the 20th is invited to swim with us and/or have guided tours of our area. Wangdangdoodle, who won’t be attending the conference itself, wants to hang out with visiting pups in the evenings during the conference.
Airport rides might be possible.
For more info on any of this, contact Tex Betsy at g mail.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
Would you mention the dates again?
July 16 or 17-20.
Are you going to attend? Or just hanging out?
So very nice of you all to offer such a warm welcome. Texas firedogs rawk!
I am sick to death of people in our country demonizing Muslims!
It is a fact that it occurs daily.
The Obama campaign is endlessly disputing the fact that he might be a Muslim (not) because the spinmeisters are at it again.
I wish he would go visit a mosque and more.
I hope that you do not find this off- topic Siun, because I think that this is intrinsic to the devastation that we are wreaking.
He’s a Christian. His father was a Muslim and Black. His mother was a ? and White.
Who cares? Not me.
WTF is everyone so afraid of? And why can’t he just say it?
Because, Virginia, fear works.
(I think we need more skooling.)
I am attending as media. One of my many jobs is as correspondent for a liberal internet radio network.
Yes we do!
That’s fantastic…can you get us Air America again? ;(
Have a great time …
I’m very disappointed that once again, they are not inviting an Iraqi blogger or someone to speak on behalf of the Iraqi people … we continue to only view the world through american lenses.
ditto.
Ummmm NO! Listen to the HORN on your computer!
angie – that’s never OT with me. The demonizing of our muslim brothers and sisters is shameful.
That’s a shame.
i don’t think obama is helping by calling it a “smear” that people are saying he might be a muslim. a smear is calling someone something bad – not just untrue and certainly not an adherent to a religion, UNLESS there is something specifically wrong with the that particular religion.
I will do that. Thanks.
Your point is a good one. Does he specifically say “smear”? I would only add that certainly the point in this case is to smear and stir distrust, etc.
I was wondering the same – I haven’t heard Obama or his people say “smear”…
exactly.
and there’s nothing wrong with……………… only those that exploit…….( fill in the blank )
yep. it’s right there on his website:
SMEAR: Barack Obama is secretly a Muslim
Thanks. It’s a fine point, I think. What would you want him to say? LIE? Because clearly it is to discredit him.
No disrespect intended…! *g*
Thanks Selise … I’ll mention that to his team.
“lie” works for me.
i just don’t like obama accepting the rightwing frame (jfc – how many times i have i had to write that?).
I am concerned at the intensity of the anger at Obama … and the way the right and the media are playing off and using that to hurt his campaign. I have serious disagreements with his position on Iraq but I am certain he is a better choice than any we are likely to get for a long time – and I really want to see him win.
while you’re at it, i have a little problem with the clinton foreign policy team, the rubin economic team, a con law prof trashing the constitution,…. thanks *g*
i have no respect for him at all any more. :(
Something like:
As an agnostic, I probably couldn’t say it quite like that, but Obama sure should be able to.
Seems to me the Dems, especially in the blogs, are doing the Repubs work for them.
He isn’t McCain – good enough.
all understandable. but I would have a very big problem with McSame winning the election.
I pretty much agree with you. It’s almost like no one is defending him (not sure that is true) but the right wing (Laura, Sean…about all I hear) say the weirdest, strangest misconstructions of everything.
Maybe you can also pass on Selise’s point; don’t accept the premises.
a two flank attack. that is what the center candidate has to deal with.
umm.
let me think here…
many?
(btw, i’m still solidly in his corner as opposed to you-know-who.
you and me and others just need to keep yelling past the hoarsenessedness!)
(need a throat lozenge?)
Yes RevBev, in America, today, Obama could not say, “Islam is one of the world’s great religions, its followers worship, as you know, the very same God that Christians worships.
While I do not happen to be Muslim, I believe we do a grave injustice to all of the very good, decent and kindly people who are. and I feel it most unfortunate that here, in this nation, founded upon notions of religious tolerance, that such ill-will, unfounded and quite unjust, is unleashed on our fellow citizens simply because of their beliefs.
Of course, as an atheist, lt is easy for me to have such a ‘perspective’.
Such behavior does not become us or the nation we all love …etc.etc.”
Oil majors wanted Iraq’$ oil.
1,695 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Siun and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
This post is an act of necessary patriotism but I’m beginnin’ ta worry that there is a new genre of music emergin’ from the anti-war blog press that might be called “echo chamber choral music”. This post is most informative and speaks to the passions and persuasions of the already convinced but the harmony is missin’ some parts. What is missin’ are voices and experiences of those who are caught in the trap of our military on the ground…not the officer class or the spokespersons from HQ but the grunts caught in the middle of this horrible nightmare.
I fear that we are replicating the phenomenon of the anti-war movement of the early and middle 1970’s…the articulations of the anti-war veterans are being ignored and their participation is being discouraged and even rejected by an increasingly condescending and intellectually removed class of what we came to understand as the “professional anti-war purists”. It wasn’t the draft resisting, demonstrating increasingly radicalized students and “old left” veterans who spit on troops or called young veterans jest back on the streets “baby killers”…no, it was the middle class, mostly white academic professional citizens who in the name of moral and political purity denounced the experience of those young soldiers who were bringin’ the war home thru their experiences that spit on and alienated the vets and stifled their voices. Those who cultivated social and political benefit from the successful end of the 10 year long anti-war movement succeeded in killing what should have been an on-going political movement and contributed in no small measure to the phenomenon of tens of thousands of homeless vets and the stifling of political involvement of a huge segment of the boomer generation.
So, Citizen Siun, I hope you can help to expand the alto and tenor sections of the anti-war choir to include and encourage voices from those who carry the festering wounds of the experience of this war…those who are on our streets and in our inadequate VA clinics and hospitals. If we don’t augment the harmony of the peace movement with the experience of those workin’ class kids who were thrown into the front lines of this terrible horror, then we are doomed to replay another act of the “stabbed in the back’ revisionist history play.
KEEP THE FAITH AND REMEMBER THIS WAR IS NOW AMONG US!!
I’ve read the Quran, no more violence that has been pictoralized in the Bible can be found in it,and basically the same tenets are preached…! The rub would be the Practitioners of the snake oil… Southern Baptists and Sufist Imams have a lot in common…! 8-(
i hate to distract the thread anymore…. maybe we can discuss later?
Then we better start the noise machine in the other direction. The FISA/Iraq/finance issues have been such an uproar. But his Iraq statement were completely inflated from what he actually had said.
My interest is in making it less likely we’ll attack Iran and more likely we’ll leave Iraq – attacking Obama now will not help that goal – and there’s an emotional level to the attacks on him that makes me uneasy, as if we expect him to be something he never was … as if a black candidate must automagically be a diehard progressive, as if something that makes me queasy.
Would I like more – of course, much more. Would I like to win – even more.
Well, the order of my sentences just went haywire, so I’m certain that I made the usual amount of sense that I can manage to mangle. Sheesh!!!
norske – sorta related. do you know if is raven on vacation? will he be back soon? i miss him.
i respectfully disagree. strongly.
of course.
and Siun @ 88, it makes me very uneasy as well.
Norske … I see many folks talking about the conditions and suffering of the soldiers in Iraq – perhaps not enough, and not with enough of the reality a journalist like Zoriah has tried to bring to the situation.
I almost never see – in blogs or media – mentions of the conditions and experiences of the Iraqi people.
I’m very grateful to FDL that we have this one regular time to pause and think about the people of Iraq and own up to the crimes we – and our soldiers – are committing against them.
I don’t know…I think I got it. Thanks
That sounds good. Since there has been so much jumping on Obama, it has that ring of the “perfect being the enemy of the good.” Look forward to the next time. On this page, I know we all want our country back.
i dunno, i’m really starting not to care.
John McCain supports torture of human beings by the United States of America
John McCain advocates a 100 year U.S, occupation of Iraq
John McCain would gladly lead us to war against Iran
John McCain:
Worse than Bush
Well, he never was a progressive but he did say he’d filibuster fisa. That’s whats got me disgusted with him. He’s a consititutional lawyer. He knows what jeopardy he’s putting us in. He’s not keeping his promise on something critically important to our individual and collective wellbeing.
I’m not voting for the republsive one, but so far, I’m also not inclined to work or donate to Barack either.
1,695 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Siun:
“…if we expect him to be who he never was..”
No we are expecting him to be who he very cleverly projected himself to be and we are exercising ouR political muscle and the power of citizenship[ to DEMAND that a politician who courts our votes represents our views on the issues that effect us. Good God, Citizen Siun, the anti-war and politically progressive movement is all of a piece. Ya can’t take equivocal stands on key issues of constitutional rights and our occupation of Iraq and expect to get elected…it’s just that simple. We have the political muscle to tell Obama to put up or he won’t get our votes.. He ain’t stupid and he’s ambitious. We don’t lie down this time!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNTION AND TELL OUR LEADERS WHERE WE ARE GOIN’ SO THEY CAN GET THERE WITH US!!!
Thank you Neuro … apparently some folks miss the context.
Yes! Nice timing, neuro…! ;-)
We can’t afford that. It’s sort of like getting our young people to vote.
If they just say, it doesn’t make any difference, that really will be the way of things.
right, obama, the anti-mccain vote.
Not like he’ll actually fix anything, he’ll just not be mccain.
Yes, we hold his feet to the fire err… flame thrower…! But, still vote for him, fer pete’s sake!
teddy has late nite upstairs
My day is over. Peace and rest well. We will probably continue this conversation. Cheers.
there is so much bad shite happening.
nobody can possibly sit back and not vote or act or speak and just pout.
really.
it’s up to us to make them work for us and the world we want!
it’s about accountability. i have no power and no voice and no say if i am willing to support obama no matter what he does. there are some lines he should not be able to cross without a penalty.
We do not have that muscle and we gave up muscle on a lot of issues – including on FISA by focusing so much on immunity rather on the overall crime. We gave in completely on Iraq (and arm twisted the Out of Iraq caucus a year ago which I believe was the start of our loss) and folks were cheering the Webb success when we were guaranteeing more horror for the people of Iraq who, as usual, were not even mentioned.
Perhaps, instead of seeing how loudly we can express our rage at Obama, we should be thinking about how we can become more effective at gaining power. I do not think we can do that as long as we are solely operating within the DNC universe but I also do not see this presidential election as the moment when we suddenly decide to punish the Democrats for not being who we wish or pretend they are. Too many people worldwide are likely to suffer for our failure to hold our country to moral standards.
1,695 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Siun:
“I almost never see – in the blogs or media – mentions of the experiences and conditions of the Iraqi people…”
You don’t see it in the progressive blogs??!! Good lord, dear, you must be busy readin’ a lotta corporate stuff…but actually the point is that the horror of the experience of the Iraqi people is best testified to by those who have been wounded by it. Those vets who are back on the streets and in the hospitals and clinics are not stupid…they understand better’n any of us the suffering of the Iraqis because they carry the wounds also. No one who has been there is immune or can isolate their human psyche from the horror of this war. The best way to carry the message of the sufferin’ of the Iraqi people is through the voices and experiences of the vets of our military.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, NO ONE IS UNDAMAGED BY THIS WAR!!
Norske … perhaps you missed the posts I did on Winter Soldier and my frequent links to IVAW?
Or perhaps you didn’t look at Zoriah’s material and his interest in showing the reality for both Iraqis and American soldiers – after all, the point of my post above is the crime of blocking our chance to see reality … Zoriah is being tossed out of Iraq for showing Marine casualties, not Iraqi ones (we really don’t give a shit about those)
Norske @ 110–
Honestly, I look around a lot and have not seen much bemoaning the fate of the Iraqis or the Afghans by our military folks.
I have seen some the wounds (both psychological and physical) that they have endured.
As a former VA nurse, I know that this will all come back to haunt us in many ways.
And believe me, there are a multitude (over here) who are not damaged by these wars and will try to make it forever so.
dammit…
I have seen some OF the wounds
1,695 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Siun:
“We do not hare that muscle, we gave up muscle…Perhaps instead of seeing how loudly we can express our rage at Obama, we should be thinking about how we can be more effective at gaining power.”
Oh my, Citizen Siun, you have got it all wrong…we HAVE the power to see that Obama is NOT elected President. We only give up that power if we capitulate as has been done by the elected Democratic left for over 33 years. YOU may have given up YOUR power of citizenship but I haven’t. This is political hardball…if Obama wants to be President he must stand behind his commitments when campaigning for the nomination or face us in the streets of Denver and ultimately lose our votes and the election.
Don’t disarm yourself, Citizen Siun, and you don’t speak for me when you say we have given up our power…if you give up your principles then your vote is meaningless.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WE WILL ALL STILL BE HERE FIGHTIN’ NO MATTER WHO WINS THE ELECTION
siun – i agree. and if you recall i caught a lot of shit (including from front pagers) for saying so at the time. this isn’t about “suddenly” deciding to punish a politician. it’s about an ongoing effort to attempt some kind of accountability. because i want the same things you do – do end the war and to stop our slide into a police state.
i disagree on what action to take. this is not about different goals, it’s about different strategy.
just like last year when i was berated for not supporting pelosi et al. when they sold out on iraq… now it’s you berating me for not giving obama enough support?
Norske .. I have not ceded my citizenship nor have I ceded my wits. Fighting to defeat Obama may feel good to you but it will be even more horror for people in Iraq, Iran, and elsewhere. You may consider that a worthwhile tradeoff, I do not.
Ah, you’re the best. I really respect you for taking over your blog. Nolo does a great job too.
And now Laura Doty!!
Compared to What?
how do you know it will bring more horror to the people of iraq? it’s a serious question.
this isn’t about “feeling good.”
damnit suin. please take those of us who see it differently seriously. don’t you know us well enough by now to realize this is no game for us either? that this isn’t about trying to feel good or trading off anyone’s life? this is about trying to figure out what to do BECAUSE we care about all life.
please disagree. please show me how i am wrong. but please do not mock my motives or imply i am not serious or don’t care about the lives of iraqis or anyone else’s.
Norske, love you. Got any spitting links? I don’t remember any of that…
Citizen angie:
You are missin’ the point, there are plenty of military “who are not damaged by these wars”…but actually the great majority ARE and that is the point. I am a “Nam vet, I served in the United States Army Medical Corps and spent a year stationed out of an evacuation hospital in the Central Highlands. I saw the wounds of both GI’s and Vietnamese and I have spent the last 40 years learning to live with my own. NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE in this country is unaffected by this war jest as no one was unaffected by the Vietnam War. And that is the point here, Sister angie, the war is home here and the best way for all of us to understand the suffering of the Iraqis is to get up close and personal to the suffering of our own vets…and we must include those voices and experiences in our politics and political actions.
There is no American, including Siun, who is not tainted by the actions of our corporatist government and the suffering of the Iraqi people is part of the moral life of all of us…so let’s include our vets in our movement to educate our population about the status of their own souls.
Selise – I neither mocked you nor your motives.
My concern is that we are heading towards hurting Obama’s chance to win – leaving us with McCain and bomb bomb bomb Iran – that is the tradeoff and I’m coming down on the side of getting Obama elected. That does not mean giving in – never has.
Maybe (maybe?) newtonusr was onto something the other night when he said that perhaps Obama was giving us a wink when he said that his administration would revisit FISA if he wins.
I still can’t believe that Obama has sold out. Pragmatism. He can’t do diddly if he doesn’t win.
As infuriated as I am about Obama’s more recent policy meanderings (and we all knew they would come, although I doubt any of us predicted they would come this quickly or in this quantity), I do have this in mind:
John McCain is not acceptable.
John McCain is not acceptable.
John McCain is not acceptable.
If I did anything to harm Obama’s electoral chances, I would only have to consider McCain in the big chair, and the resentment starts to melt.
John McCain is not acceptable.
Norske – we live in a country that does not even count the Iraqi bodies. We know, as uncovered once again by the ACLU, that US soldiers have frequently killed Iraqi civilians … for no cause, for racism, for whatever. And we hide that information over and over. That’s what I write about – I never said I was representing all aspects of the issue nor would I attempt to.
If your focus in on the US veterans, that’s great – it is not mine and not the focus of my posts.
no – obama is hurting his chances.
and i’m not convinced that obama would not be worse, especially with a rubber stamp D congress (i’d love to see an attempt at an objective analysis on this).
newtonusr – if this was about resentment, i would have made up my mind what i was going to do while i most angry. i’ve been trying to hold off and think as clearly as i am capable of (not making any claims about that – just that i’m trying to do my best).
I know that those who serve are affected Norske.
I want to hear their voices.
I want to see their coffins and bring these wars home to the American people who sent them there.
I want to hear the truth and I have sought it.
Unfortunately, those voices are mostly stilled– either due to death or the promise of dishonor or ridicule.
I welcome the voices of the brave Winter Soldiers and others who have spoken out.
I want so much to give them a President and Congress who are worthy of their service.
That is my duty as a citizen of this country and of the world.
I appreciate all that you have done and continue to do.
selise – my resentment. My resentment. I stake no claim as to your feelings on this matter.
Hell, who besides me needs a drink?
Double Jack, neat.
Citizen Siun:
“Fighting to defeat Obama may feel good to you but it will be even more horror for people in Iraq, Iran and elsewhere..”
How dare you!! Who the hell are you to tell ME that my actions in opposing this war and not enabling a politician to use my vote to contribute to this war will bring more horror to those in Iraq and Iran. You exhibit every characteristic of those condescending, holier than thou middle class folks that we all grew to know only too well 40 years ago…who were convinced of their own moral purity and intellectual superiority. No, Citizen Siun, if we do not whip Obama into line, it will not matter who is elected President because the people of Iraq and Iran will feel the full weight of our corruption and there will be no redemption for any of us who hold US citizenship.
You don’t have a clue, Siun, you have no understanding of the extent of the moral corruption of war but there is no escaping it, you are NOT immune!
I like my Jack with Squirt. I know it’s highly rude.
NORSKE! Siun has done more than anyone I know of to bring the true picture of what is happening in Iraq/Afghanistan.
I have total respect for her.
Suggested reading: Every piece Siun has posted here. Ever.
I know why your blood is up, but this is not some lackey you’re assailing here.
here ya go loohoo – one jack with squirt
anyone else?
Hey, Suz. Are you safely away from the fires?
LOL. my apologies for reading too much into your comment.
better make my drink a single. and iced, thanks! it’s summer here. *g*
so far so good loohoo. newspaper brat is much closer to the coast fire down in big sur than i am. she’s in the carmel monterey area.
Amen, brother.
I’ll have a g&t, please. Suz.
Norske – you clearly came by tonight interested in picking a fight since I was not writing what you thought I should. I’m really not interested in playing target tonight for you.
Have I been in a war – no. And I know that there is so much I do not know about war because I have no lived it.
I try to give one small voice to the news that is not covered from Iraq – the news that represents Iraqis not Americans since I believe that is a needed and important perspective.
I’d recommend reading some of the other blogs if you find my perspective not to your liking.
maybe we’re all trying to do what we can – and we see different ways forward? i also got aggravated by the “feel good” and accusations about bring more horror on the people of iraq. but i think siun is also just trying to do what she thinks is right.
sliding a single iced and a g&t down the bar to selise and laura d
Jack Daniels: sometimes you wanna slug it (neat), and sometimes you wanna just sip.
I’m off to walk the pup then sip a mojito … it’s rather muggy here tonight but I need my wits about me while walking this 80 lb youngster!
slainte all!
I love NPB! Saw her report earlier today from the front in Big Sur.
I had the opportunity to visit Big Sur in the mid-70’s, but it’s kind of a blur, if you catch my drift! Saw it again, and loved it, in 1998 when Bin Laden blew up the Embassy.
and sometimes straight out of the bottle. but i’m too old for that anymore. *g*
sliding jack to newton
g’nite siun.. enjoy walking the pup
nite siun
thank you so much
My daughter is now up near Chico and very irritated that she moved from Chi to see the sun and now only sees smoke … but safe so far.
merci. thinking good thought for npb and siun’s daughter.
nite all.
Thanks Newton … for everything.
Mojito. My daughters moved out recently, and it was so weird walking down a ways for us to get a drink together. She got a mojito, and I had a jack. Just so strange now to go for a drink with my daughter. And on her turf!
Thank you Siun.
Enjoy the walk and the mojito sipping.
nite selise
Nite selise.
Citizens Loo Hoo and newtonusr:
Wake up both of you…Siun is as dangerous as any pro war wingnut when she pronounces her own political and moral judgments on those who have at least as much understanding of BOTH the politics and morality of the situation we are debating. We can NOT afford the lesser of evils, and we can NOT alienate or isolate those fighting on our own side because they have a difference of opinion about tactics. If a “centrist” Obama is elected owing fealty to the corporate oligarchy without denouncing the privatization of our public life and government, then the horrors of this war will be multiplied on Iraqis, Iranians and AMERICANS!
Now I am goin’ ta bed, I have spent a wonderful 4 days with my own children who are still Obama supporters (as am I if he will take a bow in our direction) but I am gettin tired of arguin’ with a bunch a kids who have an inflated understanding of their own moral rectitude and intellectual prowess. Good Night…we can take this up tomorrow if ya wanna.
After all we’ve heard about our military and government since books written by brave authors wrote about our government and military, we shouldn’t be surprised that they pull this.
OMG, Siun, I went to Chico State. (As did our old friend OKK). She will love it there. No need for a car, and a beautiful campus.
Sorry, I should have checked out what I posted.
Where is OKKiddo?????
Good enough. Let’s take it up tomorrow.
Don’t know. Are you here OKK and Lahoma?
She’s loving it but not she’s taking time off from school to be in love and happy – a very good decision I think.
a great decision in this world.
“in love and happy”…….
g’nite all. Thanks for your work Siun.
Citizen Siun:
No I did not come by tonight “interested in picking a fight”…that is exactly the kind of serpentine rhetoric that exposes you as intellectually arrogant and morally condescending . I have been fighting the battles you have jest discovered for over 40 years and I won’t be browbeaten by a kid who thinks she has a clue about my experience or understanding of the greater meaning of things.
Please go to bed and get up ready to listen to those that you have been to this point interested only in lecturing.
nite norske
OKkiddo and Raven has been driven off this site by the kind of shit that has been shoveled here tonight. My guess is we won’t ever see either of ‘em again.
True. Taking time off is a real gamble. May never go back. Although I’m really proud of my 25 year old niece who just graduated at the very top of her class for San Marcos State. She played around for a few years taking a class or two (but getting A’s) and then decided to go for it. I’m so proud !
Best for your daughter’s success. She sure has a mom to be proud of!
What happened to Raven?
Well my synapses are about shot, and I see some of my favorite people see things a mite bit differently, each from the others, and I can even understand how everybody is pretty frazzled.
I wish I could say that hope is just a tidal wave about to innundate us …
but it’s not. And I am sore perplexed when some of the best human beings I’ve ever had the good fortune to encounter in this life are at each other’s sense of things, hammer and tong, but I guess that is just about what war does.
It would help all of us were Obama to act as if he had the brains I hoped (that damned word) he did.
America does need to make critical choices and I don’t know exactly what they should be, and neither does anybody else.
But I thought we were at least agreed upon civility and respect, well I hoped (that damnercd word!!!) so.
Silly me.
We cannot trust each other, or ourselves, to have the patience or clear-headedness to deal with the gravest threat (Bu$h co and his fascist horde)this nation has yet encountered.
If we cannot affect our politicians then they will screw us and fuck our country to hell, then at least, we will all know, beyond a doubt, that we will be in the same boat. I thought we already were.
We all want very much the same thing, which is the fact. How we each imagine getting ‘there’ is the crux of the dilemma, because we see that differently. I’m not about to disparage or attack any position different to mine and I expect the same of the rest of you ( to put it mildly).
But I will venture to suggest, that if our common purpose is insufficient to hold us together, then the chances increase that NONE of us will live to see what we all want.
Obama has made it quite clear that we can all go suck eggs, he has no essential respect for us OR our wisdom AND experience.
For myself, I am very weary of being used and abused, which virtually ALL politicians have embraced as ‘policy’ since I was old enough to vote. And I know I am not alone, in feeling these things.
So? Obama? What else is new?
I want wisdom in my leaders, anything else will.be.fatal.
But more than that I want, and we all need, respect among ourselves, and that means trusting others to make the best choice they may make based on how THEY ’see’ things, AND, we need (and should want) to behave as rational, loving adult human beings in the fucking ‘process’, as we sort through our options, hoping, all of us, to stand for what we care about most.
What do we care about most?
It is getting hard to tell, sometimes.
That said, I salute Norske, selise and Siun. All of whom I respect very much indeed. And, I thank everyone for tolerating the rants and raves we all do so well, most of the time.
Each time someone leaves ( I just learned that Raven, whom I respect and value as a brother, may have departed for good), WE ALL LOSE.
So, this rant of mine is dedicated to Raven and Kiddo and Lahoma. I hope they will understand and forgive my small-mindedness.
amen DWB. hope you will call me on this one frequently. always good to be reminded.
I’m with you, David.
what a bummer.
how unfortunate that the conversation about those we have inflicted so much horror on has ended this way.
(thank you DWBartoo.)
nite all.
Okay I have been doing political activism for over 5o years so I got ya by 10. Try learning something instead of bullying a person fighting for peace in a sea of hate.
I like what this person has to say and how she presents the reality of her positions. Dahr Jamail, the co receipient of the award has long been a source for me and we have exchanged brief notes when friends of his were held hostage the year after he had spent Thanksgiving with them in Iraq. Tom Fox, the American of the group was killed. Dahr Jamail has a site you cannot bear to read without deep pain. Tom Fox,
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/…..601S61.DTL">
Marla Ruzicka
http://marlaruzicka.blogspot.com/">
Juan Cole who can give a scolars information on the region
and Riverbend please that she return to us safely. All are sources for the truth.
Helena Cobban “Just world News”
You need to get off your high horse and go read the reality. The maybe, just maybe you crawl back and thank Suin for trying to make our world more peaceful.
Sorry but you really pissed me off
Darn my links never work. Go google all of them , it will give you something to learn.