For years, rural progressives have been trying to warn their neighbors that voting for Republicans meant voting for the rapine of the natural heritage in which they live. Most of those neighbors ignored them and voted Republican because they promised "jobs" and wrapped themselves in all-American values.
Now, as the Bush administration tries to inflict as much environmental havoc on the citizenry as it can on its way out the door, the chickens have come home to roost:
The Bush administration is preparing to ease the way for the nation's largest private landowner to convert hundreds of thousands of acres of mountain forestland to residential subdivisions.
The deal was struck behind closed doors between Mark E. Rey, the former timber lobbyist who oversees the U.S. Forest Service, and Plum Creek Timber Co., a former logging company turned real estate investment trust that is building homes. Plum Creek owns more than 8 million acres nationwide, including 1.2 million acres in the mountains of western Montana, where local officials were stunned and outraged at the deal.
"We have 40 years of Forest Service history that has been reversed in the last three months," said Pat O'Herren, an official in Missoula County, which is threatening to sue the Forest Service for forgoing environmental assessments and other procedures that would have given the public a voice in the matter.
The deal, which Rey said he expects to formalize next month, threatens to dramatically accelerate trends already transforming the region. Plum Creek's shift from logging to real estate reflects a broader shift in the Western economy, from one long grounded in the industrial-scale extraction of natural resources to one based on accommodating the new residents who have made the region the fastest-growing in the nation.
Essentially, Rey is opening up millions of acres of forestland to development, which means that you're going to see residential developments and McMansions sprouting up in the woods -- not just in Montana but everywhere.
And the deal stinks like rotting trout. Just last week, Montana Sen. Jon Tester was demanding an investigation into these secret talks:
For the past two years, Tester said, the company has been negotiating behind closed doors with federal officials to expand the uses allowed under its road easements, which previously dealt only with logging. The proposed new easements would give Plum Creek the right to drive across public land for commercial, industrial or residential development, and according to Tester and several western Montana officials, would open up numerous tracts of land to real estate development.
With 1.2 million acres in its possession in western Montana, Plum Creek is the largest private landowner in the state.
Tester said he first heard of the negotiations two months ago, when local officials contacted his office in frustration because they had no ability to weigh in on public lands decisions affecting their counties.
Officials have said the deal, if it goes through, could put local and state government on the line for providing firefighting and other services to homes in wooded areas previously unimagined for real estate development.
Tester said he was especially concerned that negotiations have been going on in secret for so long.
“Transparency in government is pretty damned important,” he said.
Tester said he's been “quizzing” Agriculture Undersecretary Mark Rey - who oversees the Forest Service - for two months to get details about the negotiations, to no avail.
He said he doesn't know if the negotiations and road changes are necessarily illegal, but enough legal and other questions surround the changes that an impartial investigation is in order.
Tester and Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., jointly asked the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, to conduct the probe. In their Tuesday letter to the agency, the senators wrote that as recently as 2006 a Forest Service official in Seeley Lake concluded that such road easements were only for logging and could not be used for other purposes.
But two years later, in 2008, a Forest Service lawyer took exactly the opposite position, concluding that such easements were for whatever the timber company wanted to use them for.
Mark Rey, the mastermind of the deal, is the Grand Moff Tarkin of the West's public lands. He has a long history -- including major stints as a lobbyist for Northwest timber companies, including Plum Creek -- that makes this deal reek of outright corruption.
But then, Rey has never been one to be much bothered by the niceties of the law or basic governmental decency. It nearly landed him in jail earlier when he faced a contempt-of-court citation for ignoring environmental laws and a judge's orders to enforce them. He got off, but the judge handling the matter still blasted Rey and the Forest Service for their "systematic disregard of the rule of law."
Sound familiar?
Here's hoping Tester is able to get his investigation.
Oh, and a note to Barack Obama, who's campaigning in Montana this weekend: Dude, here's a chance to solidify your lead there. Because all those rural folks who voted Pubbie the past decade are ready and willing to have their minds changed. If Obama were smart, he'd blast Rey and the Republicans with both barrels on this.
Because nothing is more likely to ruin their way of life than Mark Rey's McMansions.
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I hope this gets mega-publicity, and a thorough examinations of all sorts of possible violations, such as state’s rights to its land, EPA rules, lack of sunshine in the decision. Power to the citizens there, and I think they will find a wide swath of support. Maybe an analogy to Calif. wanting to set its own pollution levels. Thank you for this.
Afternoon, David.
Freshman Senator or not, I’d hate to have Tester on my ass.
Bushco’s evil has no bottom.
Gee, and just look at the timing of this story; what with it coming out on the Saturday of a long, summer holiday weekend.
Do ya think someone was hoping to bury it when no one was looking?
You are so right, David —- this will be a real test of Obama’s intentions as well as a test of his political ‘handlers’. If he waffles, ignores, shortshrifts an issue like this, then screw him. I’d expect him to stand up for the people of Montana who certainly stood up for him.
So all proposed Solar Energy projects on public lands get stopped for environmental impact studies I believe that there were over 100 proposed projects which means JOBS.
But Bush has no problem building on “1.2 million acres in the mountains of western Montana,” because the environment is a joke that Bush uses to kill ideas that threaten big oil!
Yeah, I think Rey is accustomed to blowing smoke up the collective asses of the Western delegation (when he isn’t winking and nudging with them, as he did for years with Larry Craig) and is probably shocked to discover it doesn’t work with Tester.
This does not make sense. The counties have a General Plan that designates through a public process the purpose or evey piece of land in the county, federal or private.
The Federal Gov has NO authority over land use planning. It’s a local jurisdiction matter.
What does the General Plan for each of these counties state the land use is? That’s the governing authority.
I don’t think there is much point in trying to affect Obama. He and his crew are going to do whatever they think they have to do to get elected. It’ll just make us crazy if we think those of us in left blogistan have any leverage over the candidate, and he will come up short every time by our standards.
It doesn’t hurt to try, but investing a lot of psychic energy in this is bad for you, kind of like what we see from die-hard HRC supporters, as here.
Just who in their right minds is investing in real estate now? Is Plum Creek Timber Co so broke that they would HAVE TO TRY AND SELL HOMES FOR A PROFIT NOW RATHER THAN WAIT A FEW YEARS?
Are their any jobs or industry to support all these homes or is this a get away community for the rich who like to ski or hunt on occasion?
Is the Montana housing market going up at all?
You might want to update the post and put this in bold, David.
McMansions sprouting up in the woods –
does the back room deal provide any forest fire programs?
You been there? It’s a lovely place for the truly rich to own some more of America. And it’s way away from the rabble, you know.
Thank you for this, David,
George Bush is determined to completely trash everything about this great land of ours.
You’re right, BushCo really is intent on inflicting “as much environmental havoc on the citizenry as it can on its way out the door.”
This massive giveaway of our public lands to private interests is an outrage, just one of many that the Bush Administration has perpetrated agaisst the American people.
There have been so many such outrages that one wonders how many people will even notice this one.
Yeah, Plum Creek is in the process of tying to destroy Moodehead Lake up here in Maine, too. Ther are getting a run for their money, but inevitably, the will win, I am sure.
Just rode through the state on the train not to long ago but all the locals kept complaining about rich people moving in buying houses and just living there a few weeks out of the year to ski or hunt.
Smoke breaks on long train rides are good places for conversation.
I will bet they tried to sell off central park…or maybe I shouldn’t even push “submit” because if they didn’t think of it the nsa will give this idea to bush and bing, park sold
It’s beautiful, isn’t it, Things. Property is not cheap. My daughter just moved back to Bozeman and could afford half the house she had in Oregon. But, oh, the area is so wonderful. Bozeman is changing….lots of richie/riches changing the feel of the place. Imagine more richies pouring into the state. Well, I guess there would be jobs for poor folks to dust the empty McMansions. If, that is, the poor folk could afford the gasoline needed to drive out into the previously almost-pristine (I have no idea what kind of logging has gone on……In Oregon you can actually see what clear cutting does) forests.
Speaks volumes right there…! Aloha, Ya’ll!
wasn’t there something last week about shrubco blocking solar projects on public lands while giving priority to drilling, on the same parcels? United States of ExxonMobil.
Slash and burn and cut and run.
The final days of Bushco.
Somewhere Dick Cheney is sitting on the floor of his bowling alley, getting drunk and eating a steak with his hands.
-G
And it’s way away from the rabble, you know.
Thats what the town of Harvard Illinois thought during the start of the tech boom. All new housing according to their expansion plans was for rich houses for the executives at Motorola all the workers had to live elsewhere in the county or out of state which made traffic throughout my entire county unbearable.
But not enough Motorola executives liked Harvard it was to far away from fine dining let alone the ethnically diverse dining Chicago people are used to. It was to far away from good night clubs, bands well anything else that people with money want.
So when the plant closed down Harvard had a bunch of empty but big homes and still no tax base to provide jobs.
Montana like Harvard has its own charms but for rich folk the charm is as a second home.
The real estate market now is like a plant closing nobody is going to buy a home there at the asking price.
Well, call me naive, but I’m still determined to get the guy I voted for to stand the f*ck up! I commented on his web site that mr. Bush has given Sen. Obama another opportunity to stand up for America. And that I’ll be watching with campaign money held back until I see a leader emerge. I am NOT giving up my naivete — ever!
Where in Oregon did she live Portland is still pretty expensive my brother lives there.
steak or raw red meat? Possibly human. Perhaps he collects ears :)
I bet he’s actually eating BBQ’d babies
Ouch!
Mind you, the lands being opened for development are owned by Plum Creek, so it’s not development of public land per se. Rather, these are managed private forestlands regulated by the state and counties. What they’re getting with these easements is the right to use roads built as logging roads for access to their developments. But it opens up whole swaths of land buried within the Forest Service grid.
In the Great White Father’s White House there are many chicken coops that need tending. Only foxes need apply.
Heh, I’m sure Darth declared ‘mission accomplished’ after this little coup de grace…
Some serious f*ckery…! 8-(
That’s Darth’s “emission accomplished”…
when President Obama moves in in January, I think we may find everything down to the drapes and the silver have been pillaged.
Corvallis. Which has many charms — including reasonable housing. Hard to get there, tho. Used to be a flight from Santa Barbara to Eugene, which is still 45 min from Corvallis. I sure did like that town. I like Bozeman, too. But I won’t like Montana as much when it’s all richified……which is already happening. Ex owns a ‘cabin’ on 20 acres just off a highway. Place gets used a few weeks a year. You know, it’s that kind of change that changes a place forever.
Heh, I stand corrected…! ;-)
these sort of expansions lead to more problems with fires too. As noted, who’s going to pay for the fire fighters?
Isn’t Corvallis only fit for the beavers…? 8-P
You must have read The Road. I’m still getting over the read. I can’t believe they’ve made a movie out of it.
This made me smile, recalling an “ethnically diverse” friend with a shiny new PhD who turned down a job at Harvard a couple of years ago when we found it on a map. She had no other offers at the time, though she wound up ok.
I fear that in Montana the RE ()*^)^%^$*()&~!#@$ have in mind a somewhat higher scale buyer for much of the land, who won’t be making the kind of everyday residential use that makes a place like Harvard such a turn-off. Maybe there’ll be a way to back them off before the locals take it to court on their jurisdiction. (I’ve a feeling that that’s expected.)
Land use guidelines are pretty important. Grids of burbs in the middle of forestland is usually a bad idea, from an infrastructure, ecological, forestry and fire management perspective.
Plum Creek want to pay for all the needed infrastructure, the fire crews and so on?
Not sure how jurisdiction issues work in the US, but I’d shut it down if I were the locals or State unless a specific development was something I wanted anyway. And right now, almost no development makes sense. Not to mention that burbs are on the way out anyway. The incentives for the future will be towards centralization. I expect an oil price pullback, but the days of $20/barrel oil are gone for good. We’ll be lucky to get back to $80, and it’ll rise from there.
David,
Why would anyone be foolish enough to build giant subdivisions right now? Aren’t smart people with lots of money investing in stuff other than real estate this year? Or is there a wealthy base of people, insulated from how bad this economy is getting for most people, who are the target market?
Just a hit and run, but God bless Dubya! He just handed the Montana Democratic Party a golden baseball bat with which to beat the living shit out of the Rethugs this election. Unlike the national party, the state party will use it - with relish. This could be a total route for the GOP if they are not careful.
oh no, I hadn’t. I just looked up a synopsis and I think I’ll pass, especially after you say you are still getting over the read. But I’m not surprised they made it into a movie, whatever will sell a ticket.
There are other costs associated with fighting the fires. One of them is that the Forest Service has lately taken to dumping large loads of flame retardant into at-risk areas in order to protect forestlands, which has the pleasant effect of killing off entire fish stocks. That was what got Rey into trouble with the courts — simply ignoring the law and dumping the stuff anyway.
The flip side of that issue is that money talks and bullshit walks; in places in Montana there’s a lot of palm greasing that goes into land-use decisions.
ET - I can tell you that in the 90’s, Sacramento and surrounding regions overdeveloped because the contractors needed to build to amortize their equipment, and the cities wouldn’t object. And as you know now, it continues to this day.
Unlike most of the country, the real estate market in Montana has not really been impacted much by the melt down. Most of the growth is in high end second homes, retirement homes, and rental properties, which is exactly what Plum Creek is targeting. They may be evil, but they ain’t stupid.
‘Fessin’ up: When I came back to California, I couldn’t afford to buy anything that wasn’t on wheels in a park somewhere. Dr.Daughter was in Bozeman then before moving to Oregon. I thought about buying 20 acres in the Paradise Valley for $50,000. — thinking that at least I’d own something. I didn’t buy, but when I was down there recently I saw all kinds of ‘cabins’ along the Yellowstone River on their 20 acres and I could have kicked myself six ways from Sunday! It’s beautiful and I can’t say that it hasn’t been developed in an appropriate manner. The land was pretty empty before the ‘cabins’ went up.
While ostensibly under the control of the Iraq National Oil Company, foreign corporations will keep 75% of the value of the contracts, leaving just 25% for their Iraqi partners.
They left 25% for the Iraqi’s?
What, are they losing their touch? That’s only 3/4 pillaging. Somebody’s gettin’ soft.
As I’ve said before, once those deals are signed, our troops should be out of Iraq almost entirely, with the exception of guarding the massive embassy and some of the permanent bases.
Georgie won’t do that, though. He’s gonna leave it as-is so that the inevitable debacle of leaving will be on the D’s heads.
But I’m always getting over whatever Cormac McCarthy book I just read. He’s harsh, but he’s amazing. The Road just dragged me along like some piece of trash caught on the back bumper…..I just couldn’t get loose.
Evening, Jay! Read the whole article… Naomi Klein penned it and she pulled no punches…! Btw, have you heard from junior, recently? ;-)
The specific counties land use plans should guide things but county Boards of Whatever have been known to make stupid decisions when confronted by Corporate greedheads.
Although sometimes the city or county government will stand up to the powers and say “Na Guh Happen.’
I was stationed in Hawaii when St Ronnie of Ray-gunz took office in 1981. One of the supposed ways to offset the anticipated (and real) budget deficits from Reaganomics was an attempt to sell off federal lands. David Stockman as the Budget Director pushed that Fort DeRussey, an army “base” (base in only the loosest sense - it was and is an armed forces hotel/recreation area paid for out of “non-appropriated funds” (meaning no tax dollars)) in downtown Waikiki, could be sold for $500M or more. The then Mayor pointed out to Stockman et al that this particular patch of land was the last open area in Waikiki and was zoned military/recreational and that consequently, the zoning was not going to change.
CTuttle can correct me if I’m wrong but I’m pretty sure Fort DeRussey is still standing and operational.
Of course, it seems corrupt. But I wanted to say that Atlanta and Las Vegas are low on water and should not be building at all and Florida is a little low on water and should be in a reduced growth mode.
Don’t worry I’m sure the Iraq’s will just seize the oil once we are gone I’d be worried about the oil companies spending er losing money in Iraq, if I actually thought that they would.
I think Bush just wants to claim a fig leaf of success in Iraq. I think Bush wants to claim that it was Obama who lost Iraq not him.
Full disclosure: My wife’s family owns a cabin on a pristine backwoods Montana lake called Lindbergh Lake. Here’s a picture of my crew on a boat ride there last summer. The bank of land you see behind them, which is all previously logged timberlands, is owned by Plum Creek and is one of the places we know they’ve targeted for development.
And if anyone wants to experience Montana, I highly recommend Chico Hot Springs. It’s old-fashioned heaven with a good restaurant and local bands on weekends and the hot springs pool — which Dr.Daughter and I and grandbaby enjoyed very much with snow falling on us as steam rose off the springs this past January. Doesn’t get much better than that, I’d say.
In the loosest of terms, I think the HI-ARNG band practices in it…! It’s basically, an AAFES ‘property’ with an Army Museum attached…! ;-)
Developers have money. Pols want money. Every municipality I’ve been in has that dynamic. But up in Canada you’ve got municipalities then you jump right to Provinces. And out West the provinces own/control most of the land. You can certainly buy those guys, no question, but it takes a lot more money than it takes to by city pols. And Canadian provinces are stronger and richer than US States. BC has much less population than California, but it is a much stronger jurisdiction with a better balance sheet, stronger taxation powers and more powers in general.
Counties have planning documents and are able to legislate in their areas. But federal land is designated by the ‘upper level’ of government and local states and counties have z-e-r-o legal authorization to determine what occurs on federal lands.
This is a very, very big deal.
Dave, this is an **awesome** post and I’m really glad I caught it.
Plum Creek, like Weyerhauser’s Quadrant division, is basically a way to make a lot of money from ‘timber products’ in an era when they’ve overlogged and cut down too many trees for the desires of the American population.
“Housing” is the Timber 2.0.
And it’s purchasable by anyone, from anywhere on the planet.
Given the dwindling dollar, that means Iranians may be the next McMansion owners, but I digress…
B.C. is looking better all the time …
Btw, have you heard from junior, recently? ;-)
Yep - he’s at Forts Sill, OK, going through Basic - and loving it (!?). Happy as he can be, feeling great even through the marches with 50# packs and everything else.
I don’t understand that boy, but I’m real happy and relieved that he seems to have found a place where he is at peace.
thanks again for asking.
My birth province, Alberta, is especially enriched by the Athabascan Tar Sands, eh? 8-)
Egh. Don’t get me started. A real mixed blessing, that is.
I’m not sure who was actually running things when I was there (there were active duty personnel officially “stationed” at Fort DeRussey but for the most part, it was the hotel and grounds. The nice thing for a GI was that we could park down there and roam Waikiki and not have to worry about fines or anything.
The hotel and resteraunt were quite nice though and the room rates were based on a combo of how high up your room and your rank. I.E., an E1 or 2 on the ground floor might pay $15 per night and at the top would pay $35 per night while an O8 or 9 would pay $35 at ground floor and $100 at the top. All figures are pure guesses though. And each room had a view of both the mountains and the ocean. (I got a tour of the hotel as part of an honors ceremony).
Okay, I misread the post.
You are absolutely right that the key element for Plum Creek timber was the issue of rights of ways, and which types of vehicles (and for what purposes) they could be used.
Without the ability to get commercial vehicles to the Plum Creek newly-designated plats, they wouldn’t be able to build the resort McMansions.
The counties can, therefore, zone the properties but Plum Creek will dazzle the locals with some hotsie plans and a lot of ‘investment’.
IIRC, Idaho used to be the highest per-capita state (despite it’s vast spectrum of incomes) mostly because the statistical impact of Sun Valley’s residents on the low state population skewed the per-capita stats.
In the past couple years, Montana has become the state with the highest per-capita income. Whitefish, Kalispell, Bozeman are now ‘commuter cities’ for people who know what they want and can afford to damn well buy it.
I’ve dealt with people of Rey’s ilk.
Very, very charming, and a vast consumer of Kool Aid.
Sooner or later the rich will be affected by the Bush economy we all complain about I think that even Luxury homes market will be affected. But maybe that is what we need right now, we need the uber rich to get angry about their money and stop McCain.
The GOP used to love to harp on Jimmy Carter’s economy I wonder if we can in the case of David Broder dig up some gems about what he had to say then and now about the economy.
It is the most utilized Armed Forces rec center in their arsenal…! The Hale Koa is an awesome experience for many in the military! I did like Seoul’s ‘Dragon Hill Inn’, and, Chiemsee Gardens in Bavaria, too…! ;-)
I know several very successful realtors, one of them in the Whitefish/Kalispell region.
There’s a market, all right.
Just don’t assume that Americans will be the main purchasers, if you get my drift.
You’ll have to dig up Broder first.
-G
Apparently how this is handled in Germany is that the developer must pay the government jurisdiction 100% of the rise in value if any sort of zoning changes are made. Don’t know if it works in the other direction. Or if this rule would make things better or worse in the US.
The google sat shots paint a scarred picture, indeed…! I haven’t been back to Ft McMurray in 20 years…
Gee, I can’t imagine why an armed forces recreational center in the heart of Waikiki would be the most utilized rec center in the whole of the Army. /s
the moment the rich are affected, the moment there will be more tax cuts benefiting them, exclusively.
This kind of thing is already a big issue here in western Montana owing to the influx of affluent outsiders moving in and restricting access to lands that have been available for public use for generations. This is a bipartisan issue here and would get any pol who sold out handed his head. As I said this is the kind of thing that could kill the GOP here, at least in the western part of the state. This development is kind of interesting owing to the fact that Plum Creek just entered a deal with the Nature Conservancy to sell 320,000 acres to the Nature Conservancy, who will turn it over to the feds and state. Sounds like they are trying to butter things up a bit.
All better…! ;-)
Yup. If you want Shitty Sprawl Exhibit 1, Google an aerial map of Kalispell. The good news on my last visit was that the locals were furious with wrath.
Very, very bad for elk herds as well as other herd animals.
And death for fish runs.
Whoever said the Dems should use this single example to clobber the living sh*t out of the GOP in Montana (and elsewhere) sure seems to have a good line of thought…
Western hunters and fly fishers know this is going to impact wildlife, because it’s more habitat loss.
More tax cuts more national debt the Dollar buys less.
Is Plum Creek going to tell the purchasers about the potential requiremetn to show photo ID every time they cross in and out of federal property? Or are they betting the RealID will just simply vanish quietly without every actually being repealed?
I’m also wondering who’s going to be paying for maintenance on all those presumably-private roads. (If I were the locals, I’d tell the developers and purchasers that the roads are their responsibility, not that of the cities and counties.) Fire prevention and firefighting is another thing: the developers and purchasers need to get used to paying for it up front.
The following excerpt from the article David linked to explains why local citizens cannot rely on land use planning and zoning to prevent the development:
“Plum Creek owns 57 percent of Missoula County’s private land, a posture that under state law gives it veto power over any zoning. Over the decades that the Forest Service enforced limits on logging roads, the county came to regard federal policy as a firebreak against development.”
Oh and dump the less commercially attractive lands.
Yeah or else local taxes will go up.
Thanks for the correction
It’s going to cost the state millions when fires burn the McMansions down.
I’m proud of my transplanted roots…! *g*
That type of sound logic may be quite beyond the intellectual (or ethical) capabilities of our current ruling rethugs
It already is in the Bitterroot Valley and up toward Whitefish and Kalispell.
Exactly! That was my first take on Dave’s excellent post… More kindling for the forest fires…! ;-)
And then there’s Bozeman.
The demand for second homes by the well-to-do seems only to be slightly diminishing, but Plum Creek isn’t playing this for the coming year or two. They’re planning 10 years down the road.
Damm I forgot the undead and the stupid are not stopped by reason!
I don’t mean to sound rude about it, but I live in California, I’m sick to death of paying more taxes so idiots can rebuild homes in forests where they don’t belong. People have had 2 and 3 homes burn down only to rebuild in the same fucking place. It’s ridiculous.
As I said earlier, they may be evil, but they ain’t stupid. I still think this has huge potential to reach around and bite them and the GOP. There is already a large and growing resentment of the wealthy outsiders screwing things up. Doesn’t help their cause that these outsiders are overwhelmingly Republican.
Anyone agreeing with CTuttle that David’s post is excellent should feel free to Digg David’s excellent post and let the world know it!
Thanks, I realized as I read the comments that I’d failed to make the distinction between land ownership, logging road regulations, and levels of government.
I’m also out West, and I can’t begin to count the number of times that seemingly small, seemingly insignificant things like ‘logging road usage regulations’ turn out to be a very, very big deal.
They usually sneak by because they appear to be innocuous.
And the levels of ownership and who-controls-what is easy to confuse.
Appreciate your clarification.
The city of West Glacier was able to stop some really crappy messes because their land use regulations, as well as their local zoning plan, were integrated.
In far too many areas of the West, the General Plan says a ton of wonderful things, but has no legal enforcement power. Only laws have the power of enforcement; many bad things have happened because people thought their Land Use Plans would protect them, and failed to integrate those plans with strong laws.
Apparently, they need more than a 2×4 to get it…! ;-)
Not so different from people building, time and again, on flood plains and wetlands and such. We are a very silly country. Like a teenager with a bad attitude. Happy Birthday to us — and may we have many more. Don’t drink and drive! Don’t toke and travel! Wear clean underwear. Pay your insurance premiums. And never, EVER, again elect an idiot as president. Not ever!
We will be lucky if Obama gets the economy moving in 3 years assuming that he stays true to Lefty economic ideas of course if Obama goes all FISA on us on the economy we will have another 70’s, or 2000’s lost decade for the real estate and stock market.
My dad said in the 70’s he paid 1/3 of the price of our house up front. As a college kid hearing about 5% or less mortgages I told him the banks were racist and trying not to sell to him.
But was my Dad right I wonder if the banks get desperate like they were in the 70’s well what would a 1/3 down payment do to the housing market?
Are we still in the good old days of the real estate market?
Done Dugg.
It takes a lot of idiots to elect an idiot President. Unfortunately, in 2000 and 2004 that is exactly what we had among the voting population.
That sounds like a good issue.
The train is full of people like that!
Aloha, neuro…! Dugg! I see that RBG duggit, I didn’t dig my Bosox failure to complete the sweep today… FTFY! Aloha, Suz!