Obama doesn’t help wipe the slate clean in foreign policy by calling for an “undivided Jerusalem“.

Obama is going to run as a centerist. He just advocated expanding clusterfuck’s faith based bullshit…

Can’t say that I’m surprised.

Jane, Thank you for such cogent words of insight and truth. Maybe the ears of Obama be open.

I greatly fear – check that, I know for a fact – that the minute Obama wins, he will be encouraged, even ordered, by Our Media Stars that it’s time to “look forward.” Because that’s all we ever goddamned do in this country. “Look forward.”

If Obama succumbs to this, all the criminals in this administration will simply have a four- or eight-year think tank vacation, like in the Clinton presidency, and then a Republican takes over and they’re right back in business. Yoo, Addington – hell, Rumsfeld and Cheney made it back; who’s to say Abu G’s all done?

Jane, I’m hopeful that Obama really and truly means what he says about changing things.

But I also still tend to believe in the tooth fairy and Easter Bunny so whadda I know?

Obama’s been the ”change” candidate all along- but he doesn’t tell us what he’s gonna change…

Great point, Jane. I’m reminded that Bill Clinton thought he could wipe the slate clean by giving a pass to GHW Bush, Cap Weinberger and the rest of the crooked Iran Contra gang. All that did was wind up empowering the Ted Olson cabal to cook up his own stew of miseries.

The treatment that Obama is showing General Clark does not make me optimistic. It seems that McCain used the attack on McCain to discredit Clark as a potential VP candidate, because he is someone whom they genuinely fear as an Obama running mate – given General Clark’s close ties to the Clintons, his candidacy would douse the PUMA theme that “Cougar” Maureen Dowd was pushing on Sunday, and it marginalizes an authentic military expert in the Democratic Party. The bonus is that he didn’t even have to convince the press, who sincerely believe that McCain “deserves the Presidency” because of the Hanoi Hilton. Perhaps the Obama campaign is happy to have Clark kneecapped, but it sends a poor signal on other issues, the Constitution in particular.

Obama collecting double the money from Wall Street as is McBush.

Dean is dreaming on the FISA thing. The statute of limitations makes it IMPOSSIBLE for any investigation to do anything at all…and with the criminal telcos covered by the civil immunity atrocity (no small help from Obama the McSame candidate of the Democrap Party), what will be gained by an investigation?

By the time any investigation got started, it would be too late. Is he going to take the oath (to be ignored like the one he took to join the Senate) and immediately order, rush rush, his AG to get an investigation going and done before the statute of limitations? Perhaps he should first state that he expects congress to pass legislation IMMEDIATELY to extend the statute of limitation on THIS item so that there is time to investigate (and take down the telcos AND Democrapic and Rethuglicans in Congress who were complicit – I’m looking at you Rockefeller, Reid, Pelosi, Hoyer!

Somehow I think not. If the FISA bill passes (thanks to Obama AND Clinton) then there is only one bare sliver of hope: the ACLU and EFF going after the law itself on constitutional grounds. Though I have to wonder about standing.

Jane,

Obama has the opportunity, and the support, if he chooses or wishes to do what must be done.

I would be less than honest were I to think that he would do’it’ without our help and gentle encouragement.

The future is Obama’s to throw away …. or to make worth having.

Let him not ignore that truth.

If he thinks it will be ‘easy’, then he is not wise.

None of us think it will be easy; but what else, Senator Obama, is really worth doing?

And it must start with courage, not sniveling, not cowering, not ‘tossing’ those whose skill and committment, Senator, you desperastely need.

He’s reaching out to the snake handlers, and there’s only one issue the snake handlers really care about.

Conclusion: Obama’s next cave-in will be on the issue of ____________.

You fill in the blank.

Just another example of “hedging” their bets? :)

I fill the blank with “SCROTUS nominees”. He will promise to only nominate judges in the mold of Roberts (instead of Scalia, like McCain, so he can delineate himself from McCain).

One of the most potent tools of a con artist is the mark’s wishful thinking.

When

Obama succumbs to this, all the criminals in this administration will simply have a four- or eight-year think tank vacation, like in the Clinton presidency, and then a Republican takes over and they’re right back in business. Yoo, Addington – hell, Rumsfeld and Cheney made it back; who’s to say Abu G’s all done?

Yep, we could yet see Yoo as AG. But Obama doesn’t want his first term consumed with partisan witch hunts.

Nobody wants witch hunts. We do want accountability and rule of law. That means known criminals get prosecuted Barry

[I]f Obama is a man of his word, he should explain to his Senate colleagues that when elected President, he will “immediately” request that his attorney general investigate the criminal activity of the Bush Administration in violating the FISA statute, along with the telecommunications firms who aided and abetted these violations.

This is why I was asking if anyone listened to KO’s special comment. He said that Obama should either do this route or just vote no on FISA because the republics are going to call him soft of National Security either way.

That’s a good answer, but the one I was looking for was a little more general. I’ll type it backwards so as not to give it away:

noitroba

I agree that I don’t want to go through all this again, Jane. I’m just stumped as to how to prevent it. It looks like all the same forces are at work now that were at work at the end of the Big Bush Administration – a pliant press, an apathetic public, and a complete disregard for history.

Jane,

Assume you’ll let us know what we can do to help Darcy (in addition of campaign contributions) as soon as you find out.

and a complete disregard for history.

a complete disregard for history and the rule of law.

uoy kniht?

This is why I was asking if anyone listened to KO’s special comment. He said that Obama should either do this route or just vote no on FISA because the republics are going to call him soft of National Security either way.

What the new putative head of our party ought to do is use that new power to obliterate this crap piece of legislation. But instead he will obliterate his ties to the progressives in the Dem party, and all those new starry eyed folks who registered in record numbers because they “believed”

yep

And a stream of washington insiders who hold all the dirty dark tricks and secrets that keep reappearing no matter who is in office.

we need so badly to clean the place out.

LOL. Yeah, I’ve still got my fingers crossed but I wouldn’t be surprised.

Even prosecution and imprisonment won’t stop the zombies from coming back – Colson, Abrams, Ollie North…. it should be remembered, while we are discussing the Constitition, that the Senate has control over a large number of Presidential appointments and can certainly say “no” if it wants to. More and better Democrats again….

Maybe we need a bumper sticker Madison and Mason were centerists

Agree wholeheartedly.

I agree with Glenzilla who had some pertinent advice on Sunday for Barry the Privacy Slayer and the rest of the gang who couldn’t shoot straight

http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html

Bacevich wrote “That criticism has yet to garner mainstream political traction.”; so true, so get those letters, et cetera flowing to the ‘mainstream’ media and hold their feet to the fire as much as Obama’s.

Bacevich DOES have a valid point when he states “This is a stiff test, not the work of a speech or two, but of an entire campaign. Whether or not Obama passes the test will determine his fitness for the presidency.”

So far I would have to give Obama a grade of ‘D’ on that test. I’m sure he is doing what the ‘wunderkinds’ think is the best way to campaign but it doesn’t seem to be generating anything but another ‘I’ll vote for the lesser of two evils’ momentum. Trying to be above the ‘dirty fighting’ seems not to recognize that the American public LOVES the underdog who fights and wins, not the intellectual, reasoning public guardian.

I’ve thought for several years that we’ll have to re-route the Potomac.
This doesn’t change my opinion.
The problem is resident in DC (and may also require things like a tanker of holy water and a truckload of garlic [/s]).

If nothing else … we make everyone in Congress and the department management and the WH eat about a quart of garlic soup over a day. (And share hotel rooms for the next three days.)

SCROTUS? Is your mind doing something Freudian? Do you mean SCOTUS?
Or am I losing it? What does the “R” signify?

Bob in HI

The group on MyBarackObama.com telling Obama to stand strong on FISA is now over 8,000, well on its way to be the biggest self-organized group on the site. It would appear that a growing number of his supporters care about this issue deeply.

This is the one faint glimmer of hope i see as a counter to the chattering classes & megaphone media: this was done WITHOUT them.

But it’s true [and discouraging] that the classless classes & media still control the route of most information to voters. [An aside: did you see the truly horrifying story in the NYT about “Flagtown USA” [Findlay, OH] and the absolutely abysmal beliefs of their voters re Obama? Scary. I hope there are enough young folks out there to counter these old coots.]

I think one additional reason the chatters are worried is that they can see their day in the sun coming to an end. It’s also why they like McCain so much: at least he’ll provide them one more Presidential cycle during which they can be wise and listened to.

They have to be feeling this all slipping away: the “insider-ness,” the influence, the importance. It can’t feel good. [FWIW, I think this was also one of the motivations for Rahm & all the other Clinton hold-overs from Clinton I — the chance to get “back on top of the mountain” with Hillary. Obama wouldn’t/won’t provide them that same opportunity.

OT: Bob, here on Maui we’re having incredible vog. Can’t even see down to the ocean. You?

Jane, that group was over 8500 half an hour ago. (I was telling a friend I’d joined and looked it up). That’s a thousand since yesterday.

It is an intentional Freudian slip. I consider the SCROTUS to be compromised and virtually without any legitimacy (since the 2000 decision to literally appoint a President of THEIR choosing). They have made grave errors ever since 2000 and only accidently, now and again, do something right and, well, constitutional. Everything else is partisanship.

Over the past week, since the rapprochement with Hillary, Obama is acting like all of a sudden the DLC has a direct pipeline into his strategic planning group. Maybe he thinks that’s necessary to get all those blue collar workers who voted for Hillary, but it just doesn’t feel like Obama any more. I think Obama needs to regain control of his campaign.

Bob in HI

I was one of that 1,000. [A little late to the party, but there nonetheless.]

I’m very excited about the growth of the anti-FISA group at Obama.com. Hopefully the candidate will take notice.

I am trying to be (for want of a better word) hopeful, and people like Booman are arguing strenuously that I should take a deep breath and focus. I know Booman fairly well and think he’s usually very insightful about this kind of thing.

Yet it’s hard for me to tell my lying eyes they’re wrong. The flip-flops on FISA, the bullshit “patriotism” speech yesterday… they really rub me the wrong way.

Young Americans, innocent Iraqi people dying, Aghanistan almost lost, Taliban coming back because our government committed to fighting Israel’s battles. This seems prime source of the insanity.

It might just be myopia on my part, but the disregard for the law seems like a new thing. At least, in the past there were enough people willing to stand up for it that it meant something.

Mauimom,
Vog not so bad here, but I’ll wait until I hear what my vog-sensitive boss sez today. You back on Maui? I thought you’d moved to DC?

You got the regular trade winds, or is lack thereof the main problem?

Bob in HI

I don’t see it that way– I thought he was pretty open about being a centrist all along. All the talk about post-partisanship put me off from the beginning.

Maybe he thinks that’s necessary to get all those blue collar workers who voted for Hillary, but it just doesn’t feel like Obama any more

I think Blue Collar voters — like the rest of us — respect people with VALUES, not someone who tests the wind or asks the political consultants what his position ought to be. [OTOH, that’s the definition of Hillary, and they voted for her, so . . . ???]

These are the same folks who liked Bush because “you knew where he stood” [even if it was 6′ deep in doo-doo].

Obama becomes more Dukakis-like every time he abandons a formerly-stated position.

I too was one of the first 1000. Maybe first 500. The “members” count on the emails looks a lot different from the members count posted elsewhere.

Bob in HI

Jane,

Pressuring Obama is a very good idea.

If, as I think it does not work, we should immediately move on to step two:

Draft Clinton for the Convention.

Despite what the ‘Bogz on the Blogz’ and the rest of the Kool-Aid guzzlers think Obama will….

Lose to McCain.

Yeah, yeah look at the polls….one word for yah: ‘Dukakis’

And all the talk about ReThugs being ‘broke’…

Once they get their 527s revved up people will be abandoning the ‘Good Ship’ Obama in droves.

FISA….

81% oppose ‘compromise’ and Mr. ‘Compromise’ is gonna win?

No way so…

We need to be ready with an alternative.

No, I’m now in Maui permanently. I had been in DC for 20+ years.

Now in Paradise.

Can’t tell if this is vog or perhaps [please, God] rain. I’m part way up Haleakala, looking down on both coasts.

helping Americans discern the correct lessons of that misbegotten conflict.

I prefer “criminal conflict”, misbegotten sounds like it was some kind of mistake, this war was no mistake, nor are the results of it

Ah, Kula area? Last year I was at St. John’s for a weekend. Splendid view! And I loved the cool nights.

Bob in HI

I listened to KO’s Special Comment last night & wasn’t impressed. He, like Obama, is trying to have it both ways. I made a prediction on an earlier thread that Obama will not be in country for the vote, it will occur during his European tour, thus giving him the opportunity to lament the lack of votes on amendments, but not having to vote nonetheless (it’s not like this hasn’t been a pattern).

And KO wishing for a secret plan to criminally indict the telcos reminds me of a teenage girl daydreaming about her first prom date.

I couldn’t bring myself to join that group. I have already removed my name/email from the Obama mailing lists (as well as the DCCC and DSCC) with an explanation for why. I cannot bear to rejoin those lists even for this purpose.

My money and my vote are GONE unless he REALLY puts out.

I’m sure they are noticing BUT the real question is when Obama will actually honor his statement that he ‘will work to strip immunity from the bill’.

As far as I’m concerned, simply stating he favors the amendment and voting against it are NOT ‘work’(ing).

DC in July isn’t paradise?

the real question is when Obama will actually honor his statement that he ‘will work to strip immunity from the bill’.

As far as I’m concerned, simply stating he favors the amendment and voting against it are NOT ‘work’(ing).

Ahmen, brother~! (or sister?)

I don’t see Pres. Post-Partisanship aggressively pursuing anyone or any organization in connection with activities that happened during the Bush Administration unless the activities are so obviously and egregiously criminal that even Orrin Hatch cries for action. If people want to look at what he’ll do, look at what Nancy Pelosi and Steny Hoyer have done so far with regard to impeachment. He’ll do the same and for the same reasons.

Here here. That is what too many Dems have done in the past with judges, bills, etc. They do the light lifting of voting “nay” on something they KNOW will pass anyway (otherwise they would have had to vote for it because they really are for it).

This is the same thing. Voting “yeah” on the appropriate amendment(s) or “nay” on the bill is not the same thing as working to kill immunity or kill the bill entirely.

The vote itself is a gimme and too easy (and worth 0.01 points).

I listened to the replay of Olberman’s special comment last night and thought that it was more nuanced than usual. He really just laid out a set of options for Obama, saying that the Republicans were going to swift-boat him no matter how he votes.

John Dean saying the same thing WRT criminal prosecution. I can’t believe that Dean would overlook statute of limitations, etc. Somethings wrong with this picture.

Bob in HI

Remember, politicians of every variety will be out on July 4, good time to remind them about FISA.

I concur completely with Jane’s post. There’s one point, however that Bacevich makes implicitly, and no doubt will make more explicit as the campaign wears on. With respect to foreign policy, the Bush foreign maladministration has pretty much closed off all avenues of action other than diplomatic moves in which the United States will have to give more than a little to get a little. It is I think fair to assert that nobody in the world trusts us any more, and that includes the Israeli’s, who have never trusted us, which is why they have manipulated us.

The Washington foreign policy establishment was raised in an environment in which the Soviet Union (after its own misadventure in Afghanistan ceased effectively to be a counterweight to the United States, and neither China nor India were there to take up the slack. The situation is quite different now. The United States have gutted their land force in two fruitless invasions. The remaining means of exerting military pressure are bombardment and blocklade. The former has displayed its limits, and the second hasn’t yet been tested, but may not survive the new generation of land to sea missiles. I don’t think this reality has set in yet in Washington. It will take time, and the establishment will be going through all seven stages of grief. My worst fear is that the grieving will be arrested at anger. If we can just get to bargaining, I think we are in the clear with respect to the nuclear scenario.

Anyway, Obama has his work cut out for him. It remains to be seen, as his wife pointed out early in the campaign, whether his brain can survive the low oxygen content of the Washington bubble. It’s looking a little starved at the moment.

FDH FISAheads need to cough up the bucks and then shut up.
Otherwise, Brian Williams Republicans will
start saying bad things about Obama.

If i understand the procedural protocol, to get “immunity stripped” requires affirmative passage of an amendment, which requires 60 votes. There is not a single chance in hell of that; it is ludicrous. Obama needed to stop the bill getting to the floor and I think that boat has sailed. The very best that can be hoped for at this point is the creative and coordinated use use of procedural stalling tactics so that the bill is no voted on prior to the expiration of the legislative session. If Obama really went to bat, there is a chance he could use his clout to effect that. He won’t even come close to trying that, and FISA is a done deal thanks to Mr. Obama refusing to honor his word on upholding the Constitution. If the big Constitutional scholar Obama doesn’t give a bigger rats ass about the Constitution, I wonder what he does care about, other than getting elected?

What dean is saying is literally true. The S of L problem has to do with the practicalities of doing a major investigation from a standing start with only few months left in the S of L.

If you already had your facts amassed and knew the theory of your case on Inauguration Day, it would be different.

I think b/c Dean was never a prosecutor, he may not realize how much a criminal investigation can be like slogging through ice cold mud, uphill all the way. It’s just slow and exhausting.

We just got sucker-punched.

There is the Repub-tilted histrionic MSM. And then there is the Oprah MSM type hype … all about style awash with hormonal excitement and short attention spans and youth. Geeeeesh. So the game plan is Chameleon-man? Bait and switch. How tricky. So we get our guy in the WH. But now our guy isn’t our guy.

When Edwards suspended… and Obama, unlike with HRC supporters, did nothing to court his constituency… and Edwards did not endorse BO soonafter … I was so troubled. It seemed like Obama was presenting himself as more in line with Edwards. Something was terribly off. I thought… could it just be about personalities. There was no coalition formed… no appreciation by BO of Edwards more altruistic message about the condition of America.

Am about to get a lot of “I told you sos” from HRC supporters, though I don’t think she proved herself in her conduct of the campaign and militarism and lobby-loving ways, either. But they kept asking, “Who is this guy? What has he promised?”

What are those five or 7 stages of grief one more time?

1,690 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Thank you for continuing the fight, this post and the conversation it generates is another block in the foundation of a movement of grass roots progressives who are learning what the full measure of citizenship demands this election. Those citizens don’t include the professional cynics among the usual suspects in the blogosphere who attempt to elevate themselves above the common blogos-rabble to heights totally out of proportion to their intellect. In Washington DC there is the chattering class of pundits who believe they set the agenda and the vocabulary of conventional wisdom…here in blogland, we endure condescending “I could have told you that” commenters who build their egos at the expense of others’ closely held values and beliefs while never having the courage to place their own out in the arena to contribute to the growth of political understanding and, ultimately, political ACTION. But I digress…I have spent the last week in a number of conversations with Obama campaign staff, first to inform them that I would not be giving another dime to the campaign and then, after the attack on MoveON and my fellow dirty rotten hippies from the 60’s, I told ‘em that I would not be votin’ for Obama either but instead would be donating time and money to the election of real Democrats so that a resurgent Democratic Party would be in place to face down whichever corporate candidate won the election. I have these last few days been workin on makin contacts with some a those “far left” grassroots subversive orgs like MoveOn and am tryin ta get some local interlocks with groups which are plannin’ direct action in Denver to force the Democratic Party and it’s nominee to pledge a complete end to the Iraq occupation and a restoration of the Constitution and criminal prosecutions of this administration and it’s corporate bosses.

I would like to see FDL hook up with other blogs and organizations to provide support, training and logistics for people who are willing to bring the war to the streets of Denver with a completely non-violent presense. But to get that far we need to continue the discussion of how we can make the Democratic Party and it’s candidate for President respond to the majority of the American people in support of the Constitution and against telecome immunity. Even if we lose this fight we learn and from the experience we gain the strength and knowledge to confront a very vulnerable party with the choice to go where the people want ‘em ta go or don’t get elected.

In the next few days I hope ta have some things ta share about who where and how ta get connected to this direct action movement. In the meantime, keep the conversation goin Sister Jane and let’s see if we can’t translate some blog energy into street power.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION AND REMEMBER THAT THERE CAN BE NO MORE COMP[ROMISING WITH FASCISM!!

The Dodd/Feingold amendment only needs a simple majority. The OTHER amendments require 60.

There is one hugh difference now, the economy. From that, can come the end of Iraq war (costs too much), rich getting richer (tax changes), don’t know how FISA would be affected if at all – unless maybe the gov. was using FISA to snoop around your banking account and such to make sure your paying your taxes (unless your are a millionaire, then they don’t bother). The economy is going to be the number one factor, and that will rouse the public – all we have to do is point out the right direction to go (no pun intended).

And not only will there be not one valid ounce done before inauguration day, roadblocks will have been erected by the Bushies on the way out the door. Tack that onto the fact that inauguration day doesn’t mean squat until you actually get your people ensconsed in the DOJ, and that doesn’t happen overnight.

here’s a timely reminder of what happens when folks decide to simply “move on”

Iran Contra’s Lost Chapter
published yesterday by Robert Parry/Consortium News

left out of the final report – certain folks were looking for a bi-partisan patina doncha know -

the actual ‘chapter’ (taken from congressional files) is pdf

“One of the CIA’s most senior covert action operators was sent to the NSC in 1983 by CIA Director [William] Casey where he participated in the creation of an inter-agency public diplomacy mechanism that included the use of seasoned intelligence specialists,” the chapter’s conclusion stated.

“This public/private network set out to accomplish what a covert CIA operation in a foreign country might attempt – to sway the media, the Congress, and American public opinion in the direction of the Reagan administration’s policies.”

all the usual suspects – Eliot Abrams, Rev Moon, Kagans, Murdoch . . .

yeah I know, I was shocked as well

As far as I’m concerned, simply stating he favors the amendment and voting against it are NOT ‘work’(ing).

in point of fact, his “favoring” the amendment undermines ANY effort to fix it, he makes it “ok” to vote for the fisa proposed

Um, but won’t cloture, necessary for that vote to occur, require 60 votes????

Tack that onto the fact that inauguration day doesn’t mean squat until you actually get your people ensconsed in the DOJ, and that doesn’t happen overnight.

Given the eight years they’ve had to carpet DOJ (and every other federal agency)
with fundie trailer trash Regent alums, and the Republican
ownership of the federal judiciary, it will never happen.

Email from Chis Dodd:

For the last nine months, when retroactive immunity has surfaced, we have been able to delay its passage.
We were able to stop it in December because I had an army behind me.

Two months later, it stalled again — this time in the House.

And last week, we managed to delay action one last time.
But when the Senate returns from the July 4th recess, we will vote on FISA legislation that includes retroactive immunity for telecom companies that may have illegally helped the Bush administration spy without warrant.

It’s a bad bill and we need action to stop retroactive immunity from becoming law.

I’ve introduced an amendment with Senator Feingold to strip immunity from the bill.

This amendment has the support of Majority Leader Reid and Senator Obama, but it needs 51 votes to pass.

Will you sign on as a citizen co-sponsor of our amendment?

Sign on now!

Together, we can prevent this assault on our Constitution.

Let’s do it one more time. With your help, we can stop the further erosion of the rule of law.

We’ll be in touch soon.

Chris Dodd

I signed and contributed… Hopefully Senator Dodd with our and other Senators can defeat Immunity for the Telcos!

gawd what an idiot !

here’s actual link to Parry article

I’m with you my friend. he needs to keep his promise. weasel words don’t matter to me.

we’ll see if he keeps his promise. I doubt it, quite highly in fact.

If someone wanted to filibuster the vote on the amendment (not sure if they can by the rules) that would be as good as filibustering the bill itself as it would prevent movement on to the bill.

Actually, the better bill, I think, and one perhaps more likely to pass were it not for the 60 vote threshold, is the Bingaman amendment that would hold off any immunity until AFTER the Congress got all the details on what would actually be immunized. Currently, the Congress is trying like hell NOT to know what they are immunizing.

See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil.

That is indeed a separate problem, but not on this; it is getting Obama’s leadership team in place at DOJ I am describing.

My understanding is that Mitch is so confident in his numbers that he’s not requiring the cloture vote and going with the straight up or down on this.

IIRC, he did the same thing earlier this year in the attempt to strip the immunity out of the original SSIC bill.

– The very best that can be hoped for at this point is the creative and coordinated use use of procedural stalling tactics so that the bill is no voted on prior to the expiration of the legislative session. –

The UC agreement precludes that, UNLESS the Dems

- make insufficient contribution to the cloture vote to limit debate on final passage (i.e., rejecting the cloture vote on final passage), or
- make sufficient contribution to pass any of the three offered amendments

Legislative Calendar (Has text of UC agreement)

Check out the diverse range of DEM senators who have asked to limit debate (these Senators filed the cloture motions in the first place – these Senators are setting the mechanisms in place, that can (if passed by 60 – and them plus the GOP is greater than 60) cut off indefinite debate.

The 16 Senators who called for a limited debate on the bill were: Nelson (NE), Rockefeller, Carper, Pryor, Nelson (FL), Feinstein, Casey, Mikulski, McCaskill, Conrad, Inouye, Landrieu, Lieberman, Whitehouse, Bayh, and Salazar.

The 17 Senators who called for a limited debate on the motion to proceed were: Whitehouse, Murray, Baucus, Johnson, Salazar, Mikulski, Rockefeller, Kohl, Casey, Inouye, Landrieu, Lincoln, Pryor, Feinstein, Carper, Lieberman, and McCaskill.

Yea, the DC La Cosa Nostra (mafia) never really goes away

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/N…../index.htm

NPR pimping ClarkGate as we speak.
No $ from me this year.

Probably partly hedging their bets, but also because the Dim Son’s bankers aren’t putting out for McSame.

I’m not sure why that is.

BC

– Um, but won’t cloture, necessary for that vote to occur, require 60 votes?? –

The UC agreement has voting after a debate time certain, so there is no “need” for a cloture motion to limit debate. Dodd and Feingold agreed to the debate time limits prescribed in the UC agreement. It takes UC to renege on a UC agreement.

I’m disgusted with Obama’s stance on FISA, his continuation of faith-based initiatives (with still no GLBT protections) and his move to the ‘center’ (aka, extreme right). Conventional ‘wisdom’, my ass.

I’m putting my pressume using my little point of light in his campaign by letting him know repeatedly by phone and letters that I’m stopping the money flow because of this kind of behavior.

If Obama so easily brushes off legitimate constitutional concerns now, he’s not likely to make a sudden left once in office.

Nonetheless, untrue to my principles and dysfunctional though it be, I’ll vote for him in November, because, if it’s even possible, McCain is more unconscious, more scattered and less ethical and overall worse for the country than Bush is. Voting for McCain gets me not only the ‘benefits’ of another Bush war-term (with the freebie of a new member to the Supreme Court who proudly spits on the Constitution and various other pieces of paper), but a term distinguished further by the beginning stages of alzheimers.

Bush at least had the naive-to-schizophrenic (-to-disingenuous) belief that God was guiding his rudderless ship. McCain claims no such consistent principle or record upon which to base anything he’ll do. I mean, he survived a plane crash in service to his country, unlike other servicemen who overqualified for the job by dying; why SHOULDN’T he be President?! McCain is an untethered tarp flapping annoyingly under a strong breeze. He’s not up to providing even the semblance of stability needed to recover the economy and get us out of Iraq, provide education to our children, gas we can afford and healthcare that works…. much less remember to bring more than a broken umbrella to any mild changes in the weather we might encounter.

But Obama, you’re making me heartsick. WTF?!

The first rule should always be – The voting population doesn’t care what the other side calls the candidate, it carries no real weight, and the candidate should never, ever base any ideas/policy/actions on what the other side calls him.

I’m about to get on board with Norske on taking it to the Denver streets. The deck is so stacked against democracy by now, I don’t know what options remain.

– If someone wanted to filibuster the vote on the amendment (not sure if they can by the rules) –

The can by the rules, and if they do, cloture cuts off the interminable delay. BUT, a UC agreement has precedence over the rules. They’ve agreed by UC to forego certain rights under the rules, and have laid out exactly what steps will occur, and time limits, and vote thresholds. The UC agreement is the script.

We keep going around in circles about the statute of limitations (SOL). The potential criminal violations of FISA are in 50 USC section 1809. Who has found the SOL for prosecuting alleged violations of that section? It will not be in the FISA statute, it will be somewhere in Title 28, USC. Even if someone knows how many years the SOL runs, that would be a start even if no one knows where it is in 28 USC. But so far, we got bupkis.

I guess what he meant by “change candidate” was that he’s gonna change – into a wimp centrist. I said a long time ago that he was the “stealth DLC” candidate…

Heh, I was hoping you would come along and explain what i meant. And, boy howdy, that is why I said the ship had sailed and the deal was done. Obama could have made a difference before it was put in this posture, but he intentionally did not.

Just returned from the Cash-Wise grocery here in Fargo, where I saw a Subaru with this bumpersticker: January 21, 2009 Hang in there, America.

In a burst of citizen activism outreach, I left a post-it note of thanks! love your bumpersticker under the windshield wiper.

Outreach, activism, networking come in many forms and moments….

I don’t ahve the links handy but I’m pretty certain that bmaz and LHP have both pointed out the SoL as 5 years on this stuff.

Which means no investigation beginning prior to 01/09 puts everything prior to 01/04 “safe”.

Then the clock ticks on until the actual indictments which would take quite a few months at best.

The statute is five years dude. Now what you got?

The MSM announced incorrectly that Obama was going to ‘expand’ Bush’s Faith Based Initiative. This has since been corrected:

Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) plans to slam President Bush’s faith-based program as “a photo op” and a failure on Tuesday, and says he would scrap the office and create a new Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships that would be a “critical” part of his administration….Anticipating criticism from the left, Obama said: “I believe deeply in the separation of church and state, but I don’t believe this partnership will endanger that idea — so long as we follow a few basic principles. First, if you get a federal grant, you can’t use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can’t discriminate against them — or against the people you hire — on the basis of their religion. Second, federal dollars that go directly to churches, temples and mosques can only be used on secular programs. And we’ll also ensure that taxpayer dollars only go to those programs that actually work….

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi…..co/11462_5

202 days, 7 hours, 38 minutes left……

18 USC – Chapter 213 : Statutes of Limitations

“five years next after such offense shall have been committed”

Title 28, Title 18 USC

SenatorObama-PleaseVoteAgainstFISA group is up above 8800 members – can we push it to 10,000 by dinner time ?

pssst – you can always unsubscribe later :D

fabulous. thanks.

The actual section is this one:

Section 3282. Offenses not capital

(a) In General. – Except as otherwise expressly provided by law, no person shall be prosecuted, tried, or punished for any offense, not capital, unless the indictment is found or the information is instituted within five years next after such offense shall have been committed.

So, like dakine01 said, the statute has already expired on most of the misconduct committed by the telecoms. What do we know about what they did after June of 2003 (best case, assuming immediate indictment)?

only if they don’t try an “emergency” manuever

The “clarification” doesn’t do much for me. If we are using Federal dollars to help out people, then do it through secular channels – private or governmental – and keep it out of faith based hands. The Founders debated the issue of faith vs. secular very clearly and decided the Nation should be secular (even some of the fundies of the day voted that way).

Barack is really doing the flip flop on too many gut level issues for my comfort zone. This is not “change”, this is just doing the same thing with a new speech.

That’s why the civil court path is so important, so that we can find out just what has been done.

So far Obama’s ‘Foreign Policy Team’ is more Clinton’s than his:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/ele…..41485.html

http://therealnews.com/t/index…..mival=1805

See ‘Related’ for part two

OK, but how is such to be enforced or policed?

I am so glad I haven’t given any $$ to Obama. The audacity of hope, indeed.

I hope he will be true to the Constitution?

I hope he will not be an aristocrat?

I don’t want to have to hope for these things. As an American, they should be as assumed to exist as I assume night will follow day.

– What do we know about what they did after June of 2003 –

I’d put the cutoff date at January 2007 or so. That’s when the government submitted its TSP to the FISC. There is no indication that TSP activity was curtailed at any time before that submission; and TSP activity is, by its own definition, outside the boundaries of FISA.

I’ve always thought so. Somebody’s got to spotlight this thread to John Dean and/or Keith Olbermann so they figure out how to twist their “prosecution” remedy around the fact that time is already up.

Is there any chance that the screw-up by Gonzales signing the certification as White House counsel for that single 60-day period happened after January 2004? Do we know when that occurred? Gonzales was not confirmed as AG until after the 2004 election, right?

I’d put the cutoff date at January 2007 or so.

Come to think of it, I think that is the end date that Feingold and Dodd mention. So, do you think that means a new president and new AG would have until December of 2011 to indict the telecoms? If so, maybe John Dean and KO are on to something, but they haven’t really fleshed it out very convincingly.

Agreed. I don’t understand how providing funds to churches is not establishment of religion, violating the first amendment.

New Laura Flanders post

I know for certain that both Olbermann and Dean were given, and in receipt of, this thread here, which contains everything in the current thread and a lot more.

cboldt is right about the effective dates, from what I know anyway. However, the likelihood of successful criminal prosecutions of the telcos is small; against Administration people maybe slightly better, maybe not. without the information that could be dislodged through discovery in the civil suits though, which Obama and Olbermann/Dean so blithely are willing to dump, there will be no impetus for any prosecutions by Obama.

I have been calling the current administration “Dick Nixon’s Revenge” for several years now – and the picture you posted of Rumsfeld, Ford and Cheney makes shivers run up my spine. The task ahead for an Obama administration (should he win – which I fervently hope he does) to counteract the perfidy that has been inculcated across so much of the governmental apparatus is HUGE – and will require a communication with the American people unlike any we’ve seen in the media age. Our task is to inform ourselves and our neighbors, friends and family as quickly and as well as possible – because we all know that if an Obama administration relies on the maid-stream media to get the message out we are doomed! Not everything any administration does is going to be popular – or, for that matter, wise. But on this we must all agree – the sooner we clean out the “one party rule” crowd, the better off the entire country will be.

Yes, and remember the criticism Bush faced on this issue (especially after David Kuo’s book) – now Obama is cuddling up to the Evangelicals with the same policy. Does he really believe this will work? Who the hell is advised him on this pander?

not to mention their tax- exempt status.

I bet it isn’t the good Rev. Wright.

It won’t just be Gen. Clark they’ll now be going after, Ismael. I posted this a while ago over @ EW-

We Dems must come together & support Wes Clark’s truth telling in regard to McCain. The Repub PTB are starting their campaign to discredit all voices from the military- officers, retirees, active duty, etc. etc. who have the goods on St. John’s military “leadership” experience/ability, starting from the most powerful who can be seen on tv & going on to as far as they can reach. All must be discredited in the effort to shove McCain into the WH. They see their opening now w/ the MSM pile on vis-a-vis Clark. From TPM:

McCain Campaign Accuses Obama Camp Of Coordinating With Webb To Attack McCain

without the information that could be dislodged through discovery in the civil suits though, which Obama and Olbermann/Dean so blithely are willing to dump, there will be no impetus for any prosecutions by Obama

bm, I totally buy that.

The impetus is strictly CYA, KO is rationalizing for Obama.

The DLC crowd. He wants acceptance from the weenie crowd (the media barbeque whores) and he’s willing to compromise everything to get it.

Mucho Gracias Nahant; I’ve signed and emailed my lists; hope others will spread the word about Senator Dodd’s petition:
http://advomatic.bm23.com/publ…..;ssid=9531

You’re right – I always thought that was unconstitutional.

America simply cannot afford another “bygones” Presidency.

The evildoers must be brought to justice, and justice must prevail. Otherwise, in twenty years John Bolton, John Yoo, and David Addington will be the “senior Administration officials” in a new GOP Presidency. We cannot let that happen as it did with Eliot Abrams, Donald Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney.

Too much is at stake. Indict, convict, imprison.

hah!

Wondered how long that would take.

The thugs are gonna lose this “battle” pdq.

They also mis-characterized Clark as questioning McCain’s service– which is not at all what Clark said.

I sent them a protest note.

Bob in HI

Dear Democrats, this is how it’s done:

[Froomkin quoting Robert Brodsky, on Webb’s reaction to Bush trying to drag his feet on the Webb-McCaskill Truman Commission] ~~

“Shortly after signing the defense authorization, Bush issued a signing statement that said he did not have to abide by four provisions in the legislation, including the one creating the commission. At the time, Bush said the provisions could inhibit his ‘ability to carry out his constitutional obligations to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, to protect national security, to supervise the executive branch, and execute his authority as commander in chief.’

“Webb immediately pushed back, criticizing the statement as an ‘impingement on the rights’ of Congress and said the Senate would ‘march forward in an expeditious manner’ to create the panel. Webb’s office said the White House seems to have dropped its objections and plans to cooperate with the panel. . .”

Re: getting a majority to pass on the “strip Title III” part of the bill.

There are a solid 46 GOP votes against (figuring McCain and Graham will be out of town, and Specter might rationalize voting FOR this amendment, as well as his own).

Add to that, Rockefeller and Lieberman to vote NAY, and there are 48 NAY votes. There are just too many to have to “keep in line” to have any realistic hope of the amendment passing. I don’t think the vote will be close.

Here is the result from last time:

Feingold 3907 (2 hours) is “Strike Title II” REJECTED Feb 12, 2008 at 11:03, on a 31-67 vote (Bayh, Carper, Conrad, Feinstein, Inouye, Johnson, Kohl, Landrieu, Lieberman, Lincoln, McCaskill, Mikulski, Nelson (FL), Nelson (NE), Pryor, Rockefeller, Salazar, Stabenow and Webb voted NAY. Clinton and Graham did not vote)

Good on Senator Webb!! However, the bigger issue – when in the Hell is Congress going to take on the “signing statement issue” and get resolution from SCOTUS. If the Constitution means anything at all, then the Executive should not be able to tell the other two branches what it is going to follow in the laws that the Legislative branch passes.

I don’t give a damn whether it is a Repug or a Demo as the President, his/her job is to execute the laws that the Legislative branch passes.

Anytime McConnell agrees to a straight-up vote, he’s got it in the bag.

cboldt, it’s looking grim as usual. We need to achieve results with this Accountability Now project. MSM blogs are now picking up on the explosive growth of the sub-group (aka list-serv) on the Obama web site demanding he stop FISA.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes…..-backyard/

But even if that group grows to 10,000 members this week, and even ignoring the fact that there are hundreds of duplicate registrations (because the site is just a tad slow to acknowledge new subscribers), that group is not raising money or planning to run ads against Blue Dog sell-outs like we are. Emails and faxes to Barack’s Chicago staff have been ignored. Supporters of Barack’s decision to support the FISA bill say out of both sides of their mouth that (a) nobody is paying attention to FISA out in the middle of the country and (2) he has to vote for FISA to win over all the concerned “moderate” or “centrist” voters who ARE paying attention to FISA.

We need to achieve tangible results in this fight. I would be really happy to see a sample of the new ads from Accountability Now that might be running against John Barrow in Georgia.

they’re scairt of him.

(snicker)

he was jovial and totally at ease on KO and spoke up against the admin, too– saying Bush “blew it.”

when asked if there was anything new since he last asked if he was gonna be running for VP– “not really”.

good post from Glenn Greenwald this morning with updates:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…../01/obama/

But no news on Accountability Now’s ad campaign.

Actually, there is good evidence that the Administration continues to break the law (FISA) even today. One possibility for Obama’s willingness to pass the current abomination is that he doesn’t want to inherit an illegal program when he takes office.

I just got an email from Chris Dodd. He’s introduced an amendment with Senator Feingold to strip immunity from the bill. That’s not entirely acceptable to me, but I DID sign on as a citizen co-sponsor of that amendment.

You can do so too here.

– when in the Hell is Congress going to take on the “signing statement issue” and get resolution from SCOTUS –

That reminds me of Senator Specter’s speech last week. He pissed and moaned about President Bush not following statutes (among other things, using signing statements to get around Congressional intent re: detainee treatment and USA PATRIOT Act provisions), then said he was going to file a bill that said “the president has to follow Congressional intent.”

Idiot.

Congress has a remedy for executives who “go too far,” and passing another law isn’t it.

Yes, and how many times has Congress used that remedy?? At the presidential level I can think of two.

Well, three if you count Nixon – he wasn’t impeached only because he didn’t hang around long enough.

New Ian a couple of flights upstairs

Kieth Olberman makes a good argument for Sen Obama to vote either way on the FISA bill next week. Here’s the link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25463360/

And here’s a sample of his argument:
“Senator, sometimes it is better to be lucky, than good. Keep your eye on the wording of the legislation to make sure the Republicans don’t realize its flaws. Then vote for the amendment to strip telecom immunity out of the FISA bill. Then after that fails, vote for the FISA bill, if that’s your final answer. Then the minute the president has signed the FISA bill, you announce that you voted for it because it renews FISA and because it permits a bigger prize than just civil suits, that it allows for criminal prosecution of past illegal eavesdropping.”

Sounds reasonable to me. We can only hope the good Senator does what is right and starts criminal investigations as soon as he enters the WH in January.

OT-I still would like to know where the gas and diesel come from that we are using in Iraq.

WayneC