Login HereThe outpouring of support from you and across the country, in letters and e-mails and phone calls and the blogs has been absolutely fantastic. It really made a difference, as we mounted a challenge this week that almost nobody thought could work. We did stop this thing for now -- it is delayed until after the July 4th weekend.
I teased some of my colleagues...I said, we can celebrate the constitution on July 4th, and when we come back maybe you'll decide not to tear it up....I'm deeply grateful for your support.
Sen. Feingold has been a real leader on this issue, as he and Sens. Dodd and Leahy push to remove telecom immunity from the FISA bill in their amendment.
But so have all of you. Thank you so much for all of your efforts on this and on so many other issues every single day. My proudest moment as a blogger was being teased by Rep. Conyers about being the person who unleashes thousands of phone calls and FAXes on his office -- which we couldn't do without all of you caring about these issues so much and being willing to take action on them. So, thank you -- on behalf of The Peanut and all the generations to come. Thank you so much.
We are cooking up some more action on this issue which we'll announce later -- but please also consider some of the ideas we've already discussed here, here, here and here.
Citizenship is something that we all do. The You Work For Us Summer Tour is about to swing back into action again...let us know what you are doing in your community to wake up the neighbors.
(H/T to Ilya Sheman for the heads up on the video. And to the folks at Progressive Patriots for filming it.)
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Can you talk about the difference between civil immunity and criminal immunity? (If you’ve alreay done this, I’ll take a link). Gracias!!
Feingold & Hardin-Smith 2012!
It’s difficult to say what effected the delay, but Reid seemed to take the executive decision, early, to postpone the bill till later, regardless of what Feingold or other Senate opponents might’ve done to prevent the immunity component from passing.
It’s nice to see that there is still a glimmer of hope. I’ve been away for a couple of weeks with limited internet access, so I was worried that the Fourth Amendment would be gone by the time I got home. I hope we can continue to keep up the pressure.
I realize I missed a lot of the discussion after Obama came out in favor of the House bill. I was profoundly disappointed by that move. Is there any hope that he is merely “posturing” for low-information voters with this one and would still operate with the strong view of the Constitution and civil rights we once thought he shared with us, or do most people think he is in the process of selling his soul for the Presidency? What will we tell our children?
Jeez, I feel like I’m at a baseball game that’s in extra innings and my scorcrad is all maked up with little notations and I just can’t read it, Leahy is with us in this?
Bmaz lined that out the other day at emptywheel’s — there are a number of differences, but the bottom line is this: someone has to want to prosecute the case, and they have to want to do so before the statute of limitations for prosecution has already run out. Which, in this case, would be a scant few months after the new president takes office. Making criminal prosecution highly unlikely, to say the least. Let me see if I can scrounge up the bmaz link for you…
I’m told by folks in both Feingold and Dodd’s offices that Reid was working with them on trying to push a delay to give them more time to work on immunity. Dodd publicly thanked him for it. I’ll try and dig up that link as well. (Juggling twenty things at once this morning…may be a sec…)
Here’s the bmaz analysis on the civil versus criminal liability issue.
I’m wondering if that’s there spin on Reid’s motives. Look forward to reading more at the link, when found.
Will be watching and ready to help with my list.
To those who, from the previous list, want to know ‘who’s side I’m on…’ I’m on the side of:
The Constitution.
The People of the United States.
Those who will stand up for our rights and our freedoms.
Not AssClowns who run away from a fight.
Not AssClowns who have been in office so long they think they have a right to be there.
Not Fascists who see government as a tool to amass more money or power.
People would do better pulling their heads out and….
Thinking for themselves for a fuking change rather than recycle the drivel they suck up from the above listed.
Has been — his staff on judiciary have been working their asses off on this for a while.
A breath of fresh air.
Thanks for this post.
Why doesn’t KO do a “special” on Feingold?
Thank you Russ!
as for Independence Day, Bush has been invited to speak at Monticello for the Naturalization Ceremony. I posted about it last night on PW’s thread, and will take the opportunity again as some firedogs did take action!
more posts/info here– they are not letting this one go!
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/
i’ll get my pencil that’s in desparate need of sharpeniing and make a note on my scorecard. i thought he ws a let down in an earlier go-round.
Here we go — I knew I’d seen something from Dodd about Reid and the FISA bill.
and there’s the different standards coming in to play as well; “Beyond a Reasonable Doubt” for the criminal prosecution versus the “Preponderance of the Evidence” in the civil cases.
IANAL, but I’ve paid attention to a few legal things over the years. :})
Hello from Jamestown, NY.
There is also a Presidential pardon that forever bar any criminal prosecution of telecoms.
They all play different roles in the negotiations, but often what we see publicly isn’t everything they are doing behind the scenes, ya know? And I often don’t hear about a lot of it until after the fact. Wish there were some way to make a lot of this more transparent, but we’re working on it. *g*
KO is too busy trying to prop up Obama & defend himself - last night’s Special Comment was quite an acrobatic act. I’m really disappointed we are nominating a candidate who has caved on civil liberties, and his supporters are defending his position as ‘he has to do what he has to do to win the presidency’. KO has turned this position into another secret plan (reminds me of the Nixon promise on View Nam).
Bleghhhhhhhhh!
Preview is my friend “Viet Nam”
Thank you, Christy,
That link offers ‘insight’ which allows us further understanding.
BTW, you juggling skills are amazing, all those things going around and up and down, spinning, some with sharp edges, all weighing heavily …
‘Tis awesome!
;~D
I’m glad that we now have a little time to organize even more resistance to this bill but the flip side is that the blind supporters of Obama are also organizing and they are against holding Obama’s feet to the fire on this because they are afraid that it will cause him to lose. This distorted view of democracy will also gives a pass to the other Senators. The “pragmatic” center is busy at work today on several of the blogs and we all know that using FEAR creates a lot of sheep.
A performance on the casting couch is not the most efficaeous way to get a job.
Just wait until you see what we are working on that we’ll hopefully be able to roll out later today or tomorrow… (She says in her most tantalizing tone.)
Not quite true — the group that was formed to push Obama on the FISA bill among his online organizing tool groups has gotten huge — it’s the fastest growing of all his groups. And I’m positive it has not gone without notice.
The question is whether or not that notice will result in real action…guess we’ll see.
Christy, thanks so much for the update, apologies if this is in any way unhelpful. I realize there are a lot of issues surrounding FISA with which I am unaware as well as the best way for this community to interact with Congress. My understanding is that the Vichy Dems will try to hide behind a group of amendments that strip retroactive immunity out of this very bad bill. The plurality of amendments, as I understand it, is the problem. Some of the amendments are better than others and the plurality allows many Vichy Dems to claim they voted to strip out retroactive immunity. The reality will be that they knowingly split their insincere resistance between several amendments, thus causing all of them to fail. As I understand it, if by some miracle Democrats do strip out immunity that’s veto bait to George Boosh. I’m realistic about our chances here, wrt to stripping out the immunity, but I was hopeful that the strange bed fellows group could unite behind one amendment. (Or in the short run, unite behind asking Dems at least not to vote for the worst amendments in the group, probably Arlen Spectors imho.) At least that way imho, we keep up the pressure and rifle it to correspond to the level of parlimentary manuevering being employed against us. I think going forward that sends a powerful message to Vichy Democrats about our increasing level of understanding about the games they play. When they claim to have voted against retroactive immunity for the telecoms, we’ll come back and say “no, you really didn’t.” h/t to Selise for all her fine work on this.
I am not a lawyer but I know enough to cover this one:
Civil immunity, which is what the Democraps in Congress are desperate to give to the telecoms, means that they get out of court free: all the lawsuits that really stood a very very high chance of going against the telecoms (for good reason) will die with a whimper. We the People will then be protected from ever having to hear the ugly details about how the telecoms, in cahoots with the guvmint, used the Constitution as toilet paper and spied on an unknown number of Americans without warrant or reason (likely simply because they had disliked political opinions or were insistent on the rule of law being applied even to bogus terraist detainees).
By killing the civil lawsuits, this ensures that the telecoms WILL get by 100% free because that leaves criminal liability. This is a dead issue and the recent Olbermann comment doesn’t breath life into it. Bush WILL issue a blanket pardon to protect “patriotic” companies and individuals who helped him spy on Americans without valid reason or warrant. He doesn’t CARE that doing this is an outright admission of guilt because he has absolutely no fear of anything coming of it. He will be exiting the door, ready to rake in HUGE fees for…I can’t say “speaking” because he doesn’t do this…let’s say he will rake in HUGE fees for drooling and making chimp-like sounds in front of adoring Constitution-hating crowds of Milton Friedmanites.
Impeachment is off the table. That means, literally, that the Congress is totally disarmed and absolutely and truly powerless. Less than useless.
Bush will pardon the telecoms and THAT will close off the last possible avenue for finding out what happened. Obama has stated that he doesn’t want to do anything in his term to make it appear that he is simply conducting a “partisan witch hunt” so he has already made it clear that he doesn’t give a f*ck about the Rule of Law, the Constitution, or the country. He simply doesn’t want to rock the boat, same as all other Dems, because it is more lucrative to leave the boat afloat only with them at the helm instead of their doppleganger’s the Rethuglicans.
It’s more than just telecom immunity. In our focus on that, I don’t want to see two other REALLY BAD things about the bill get overlooked.
1) this bill substantially increased the gov’t’s power to spy on us WITHOUT ANY COURT APPROVAL NEEDED. This is Huge people, and Sen Feingold alluded to it in his video.
2) The second, is the HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE that this bill does to the judiciary. It says that the AG can essentially dictate to the court whether what a telecom did was legal, the court basically is forced to accept what the AG said, and then the court CANNOT describe the basis upon which it made its decision , in the written opinion.
Which means no stare decisis
oooooh, tantalize me, lady, tantalize….
we luvs us some great things to look forward to…
Have I mentioned Wesley Clark is my hero?
Amen, sister. As an Obama supporter (having morphed there from being a Gore and then an Edwards supporter), I am having serious buyer’s remorse. The contrast between Obama and Feingold/Dodd and yes, even Hillary, is growing more extreme every day. What a letdown (and don’t even bother to say “I told you so” because I have a long memory and I know that).
I’m intrigued …
You’ve got my attention.
I can hardly wait. See, you’ve got me excited …
I’m gonna tell all my fiends, “There’s another exciting adventure, come on! I don’t want to miss this!”
Absolutely correct — in fact, Sen. Feingold’s office put out a fact sheet on the bill that goes over ALL the problems with the bill. You can read it here. There are a LOT of issues that need fixing — the RESTORE Act was far superior to this on a number of legal levels.
Is there a “Plan B” being organized to start the challenge to the Constitutionality of this bill if passed? Surely your point 2 has to be unconstitutional on its face and it would seem that point 1 is as well, but of course, IANAL. What pathways are there to challenging this?
”I teased some of my colleagues…I said, we can celebrate the constitution on July 4th, and when we come back maybe you’ll decide not to tear it up….I’m deeply grateful for your support.”
christy–when i called kucinich’s office, before the vote, to thank him ahead of time, i brought up the blueamericafisa pac to his office workers, that maybe he would want to tell his fellow reps about the possibility of them being held accountable for their vote……they laughed…..his office has the best staff of any….i just love them……
and fisa talk has picked up here locally on the local call-in show, i don’t even have to bring it up anymore, someone else does…..well, one already did pretty often too, but others are jumping on it and wanting 800 numbers……nice.
1-800-450-8293 capitol switchboard
and beerfart–your leahey scorecard-give him a ’check’—-this time, leahey was the first one out of the barn on tv and radio and on the senate floor saying ’poo’ that barn stinks……
He may be on the couch, but we are the ones getting *ucked.
The ACLU and EFF are already on that Plan B, and have been for ages. So, yes…
I hope it was teasing that made some of the critters squirm.
–Has the robo call for Steny Hoyer been put into effect yet? If so, any kind of reaction being seen?
Here is imho just a horse-sh*t piece of journalism done on Feingold last week by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, far and away the largest daily in Wisconsin.
Feingold fights for privacy over surveillance legislation
It effectively and politely regurgitates all the White House talking points.
I have a prediction of how Obama beatst his rap - when FISA comes up for the vote, Obama will conventiently be on his European tour. He will then criticize the bill & lament the lost amendments - but still be in the clear. Much like that crappy Lieberman bill on Iran.
One would hope that the point 2 issue would be a winner with the judicial (broken) branch because it shouldn’t take too kindly to being shoved back as the weak and powerless sibling in the official government trio. The second item eviscerates any Constitutional authority of the courts and renders them sock puppets.
Well, he hasn’t exactly been in the clear in the past for not bothering to show up for votes. At least, not here anyway. *g*
Dodd:
I find this from the linked page rather cryptic and a bit confusing. One could read into this that there is no connection whatsoever between the delay and what Dodd wants. Basically, he’s addressing the onlookers, not Reid, perhaps, in an attempt to dragoon Reid to his position. There’s no indication that Reid shares his views on FISA, at any rate.
you guys are gonna love this, I just got an email from the obama campaign, check out my resonse to the email which is second;
Hi David
Before we found out the senator’s position on this FISA capitulation, this presidential candidate inspired hope with me and my family that our constitution might be returned, that the government will again be for “the people” and by “people”
Yet we find the senator has capitulated and as far as I can see, he has corrupted himself with a corporate agenda.
An agenda I thought would never come from Barrack Obama’s campaign, since it is we, “the people” who funded his rise along with the hope and promise of just such a candidate.
I’m sorry David, I will no longer spend either time or money on this candidate, he has corrupted himself with the very first challenge and I have no faith he will do the people’s work, he has already forsaken his oath to “protect the Constitution”, he has already broken his promise to defeat any FISA bill with immunity for criminals.
With said “immunity” a telcom official, using the cover of his position, can take my manuscript and publish it for himself, if I have a new engine design that will deliver 20 percent higher fuel efficiency at no cost in power, (I do), the telecom can take that invention and I will have no redress.
If a depraved “official” using the cover of their position wanted to follow my wife or child, I will never be able to discover that depravity and bring these people to the bar of justice.
If there were government officers who used information gathered to blackmail lawmakers into passing law or defeating law, we will never know.
Please feel free to forward this letter, these thoughts and my position to whoever it might concern.
I would like you to include the following;
While someone like myself could not possibly vote for McCain for office, before this decision the senator would have energized real patriots to vote who might no have otherwise.
Now, with his position on this FISA bill, there will be people who feel betrayed and who would rather not vote at all rather then vote for a man who has clearly corrupted himself, ignored his oath to our constitution and broken a promise.
Sorry
zed
— On Tue, 7/1/08, David Plouffe, BarackObama.com wrote:
From: David Plouffe, BarackObama.com
Subject: One more thing
To: “zed mitchel”
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 3:38 AM
zed —
The crucial midnight deadline is just hours away.
The results of our fundraising from this month will be used to gauge our strength against John McCain and the RNC.
But there’s another reason why every dollar you give right now is so important — we’re building the first 50-state presidential campaign in a generation.
By making your first contribution before the midnight deadline, you’ll be investing in the growth of this unprecedented movement at a time when the resources are needed the most.
Please show your support by making a donation of $25 right now:
https://donate.barackobama.com/midnightdeadline
It’s been less than four weeks since Barack became the presumptive Democratic nominee, and here’s what supporters like you have already made possible:
Staff and offices in 21 states
134 campaign offices open across the country
Nearly 1,000 field staff on the ground, supported by more than 3,500 Obama Organizing Fellows
And we are literally growing every day.
Your contribution today is an investment in the organization and staff we’ll need to expand our operation in all 50 states.
Every single staff member on the ground and every single new office we open will help us to register more new voters, bring more volunteers into our campaign, and build our grassroots movement all across this country to help Democrats win up and down the ballot in November.
That’s why a dollar you give today to help us build our campaign will do more and have more of an impact than a dollar you give in October or November.
Make a contribution of $25 to invest in our 50-state campaign:
https://donate.barackobama.com/midnightdeadline
Thanks for everything you’re making possible,
David
David Plouffe
Campaign Manager
Obama for America
Paid for by Obama for America
This email was sent to: zedunofitzeroo@yahoo.com
To unsubscribe, go to: http://my.barackobama.com/unsubscribe
This is one of the errors in the JS article linked above.
Anyone have a link to a list of all the updates to FISA since 1978? Or just a compact way of saying that assertion is completely untrue. Thanks.
He probably will be out of the country so he can avoid one of his NUMEROUS “present” votes.
Retroactive immunity is not the most directly harmful part of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, but it conveys messages Congress should not be sending and ends discovery we so much need. But if Congress won’t refuse to grant retroactive immunity, they’re not likely to seriously weigh the immediately harmful giveaways in the bill, so I’ve quit complaining as much about the retroactive immunity amendment being the issue most discussed. It’s the tip of the iceberg, but at least it is getting discussed.
What are the chances that we can attack this from the standpoint of, “Just because you pass a law does not make that law Constitutional. This law purports to limit the powers of the Federal Court to a preordained position. It shreds Amendment Four of the Bill of Rights. There are ways to rescind Amendments to the Constitution, but this ain’t it, so until/unless I see a Supreme Court decision that verifies the legitimacy or Constitutionality of this legislation, I consider it just another piece of trash put out by the trashy 110th Congress under the leadership of Nancy Pelosi (Speaker of the House) and Harry Reid (Majority Leader).”
I agree. I was just fishing for what the actual pathway would be to a SCOTUS challenge to the Constitutionality of the bill, especially since the bill would effectively end the EFF suits that I am aware of and the statute of limitations will run out before criminal charges can get organized in the next Presidential term (if Bush hasn’t issued blanket pardons, which he almost certainly will).
I agree this group has gotten huge (I’m #826) and I think we are in the majority but there is still an effort to stop us that we shouldn’t forget. Wherever I see posts by the “pragmatists” I make sure that I leave a comment opposing what they are advocating. I figure if we don’t then it might fool people into believing that they have the dominant view.
Yeah, but he’s not playing to “us” anymore - he’s gotten what he needed and he’s moving on.
Agree.
I think one reason we’re so focussed on retroactive immunity for the telecoms is that if by some way we could strip that out, Bush would veto the whole bill.
I can’t speak for most people, but I think he sold his soul for the Presidency! Shame! So much talent; so little courage. Either that, or he’s making the same mistake his predecessors made: listening too much to political consultants. That in itself shows a lack of judgement! No backbone! No courage of his convictions!
I actually do think that a Constitutional challenge could be mounted with respect to several provisions of the bill. Some of the writing David Kris has been doing about the bill, seem to imply that as well.
But, that means that by the time it is struck down, every conceivable Statute of Limitation will have expired.
Kabuki, eh?
Good point.
Because everything unconstitutional is done in absolute secrecy (even from the courts!) there is no one with “standing”. How can ANYONE bring a case to court against the telecoms OR against the law itself if no one can show “harm” because there is no evidence that they were illegally spied upon?
The criminals in Congress have found a HUGE loophole in the system. Pass a clearly unconstitutional law but in such a way that there can NEVER be anyone with so-called “standing” to bring a case against the law (or government).
We need an Amendment that gives all people automatic “standing” to bring cases to court whenever a basic constitutional right is gutted/abrogated by a shitty law. EVERYONE has standing when a law exists that sidesteps our constitutional rights. By definition.
That is what I feared. That doesn’t diminish the importance of taking up the fight, of course. As Christy points out, we owe it to the next generation to correct these wrongs. Even if the perpetrators go free, it is vital to restore the Constitution to full functionality.
btw, I was talking to a member of Senate staff earlier this week, and they were telling me that calls were pouring in last week — at a higher volume than usual. And that it did get a lot of notice, especially because a lot of them were coming from in-state constituents. You guys were a part of that and it was very much appreciated. It really gave Feingold and Dodd the leverage they needed to push on this legislation to get a pause and build more support for their amendment.
In re Obama, there has been no sea change in his political posturing. They’ve just moved into sharp relief as he has emerged from the political slime.
oops, I forgot my response, check this out;
Hi David
Before we found out the senator’s position on this FISA capitulation, this presidential candidate inspired hope with me and my family that our constitution might be returned, that the government will again be for “the people” and by “people”
Yet we find the senator has capitulated and as far as I can see, he has corrupted himself with a corporate agenda.
An agenda I thought would never come from Barrack Obama’s campaign, since it is we, “the people” who funded his rise along with the hope and promise of just such a candidate.
I’m sorry David, I will no longer spend either time or money on this candidate, he has corrupted himself with the very first challenge and I have no faith he will do the people’s work, he has already forsaken his oath to “protect the Constitution”, he has already broken his promise to defeat any FISA bill with immunity for criminals.
With said “immunity” a telcom official, using the cover of his position, can take my manuscript and publish it for himself, if I have a new engine design that will deliver 20 percent higher fuel efficiency at no cost in power, (I do), the telecom can take that invention and I will have no redress.
If a depraved “official” using the cover of their position wanted to follow my wife or child, I will never be able to discover that depravity and bring these people to the bar of justice.
If there were government officers who used information gathered to blackmail lawmakers into passing law or defeating law, we will never know.
Please feel free to forward this letter, these thoughts and my position to whoever it might concern.
I would like you to include the following;
While someone like myself could not possibly vote for McCain for office, before this decision the senator would have energized real patriots to vote who might no have otherwise.
Now, with his position on this FISA bill, there will be people who feel betrayed and who would rather not vote at all rather then vote for a man who has clearly corrupted himself, ignored his oath to our constitution and broken a promise.
Sorry
zed
Did anyone cath Olbermann’s special comment last night? I tried to stay up an watch it during the replay but didn’t make it. Olbermann alluded that Obama will have to either promise to criminally prosecute the Telecoms if he gets elected or vote no. I am sure I can find a youtube somewhere of it. Just curious if anyone did get a chance to watch it?
God bless him, his hair is going grey.
Can you imagine how hard it would be, to be the first judge that gets this bullshit system in live time? Basically, you are going to have call Mukasey–who I’m told was pretty popular with his fellow judges–a liar and fraud. Then you are going to have deliberately disobey a statute, after writing a REALLY well researched decision showing why the statute is unconstitutional.
Then you will probably face a judicial conduct inquiry. Because Congress won’t so it’s job, the judiciary has been doing an awful lot of heavy lifting for the last few years. Now this Admin, and this Congress are going after the judges.
It’s sickening
I listened to Olbermann’s Special Comment last evening and was rather shocked at three things he said. In the first two he claimed to be paraphrasing a conversation he had with John Dean.
1. Bush’s accomplices would not accept pardons, because that involves an admission of guilt. In fact, one does not have to “accept” the pardon until the last second, and even then the acceptance is only implicit and has no consequences. The Iran/Contra participants had no compunctions about accepting their pardons, and neither did Libby.
2. Bush would not grant a blanket pardon, because that would e tantamont to an admission of guilt on his part. Look Bush, through a spokesman has already admitted to authorizing waterboarding, and said he’d do it again. He knows no shame, but wants to protect his accomplices and himself. (BTW in 2000 John Dean wrote at FindLaw that a president can pardon himself.)
3. That the pending law (H.R.6304, the FISA Amendment Act of 2008) would “restore FISA.” In fact, FISA is current law. The Protect America ACt of August 2007 cut a big temporary hole in FISA but expired in mid-February. (The year-long programs authorized under the PAA expire between August 2008 and mid-February 2009.) You and David Kris and Marty Lederman have pointed out that H.R.6304 guts FISA. (And I wish people would stop calling it “FISA.”)
Olbermann is in a position to do a great deal of good, and I think his heart is in the right place. I just wish he’d start reading Glenzilla every morning to get his stories straight.
by the way, I am “zed” on obama’s site, thought the firedogs might get a kick out of that
Watched it twice - KO promoting a secret plan for Obama and basically saying Obama should do whatever he needs to win. Then, he can do clean up on aisle 4th amendment later.
Good Morning Christy and Firedogs -
man oh man they make it difficult to find where they will be on the 4th.
Everyone must keep calling local offices to find that info.
here’s something inspirational to watch while you’re on hold - love me some seniors !
ps - there’s a quote from Justice Powell in Katz addressing the notion of “technology” wish I could find it. yeah I think the technology argument is bunk, why do you ask ?
I am convinced that even the blindest of the blind can see that “we the people” are a scosh disturbed by the lack of backbone. Every time I called someone the line was busy, the recording full or the person I spoke to was aggravated by the number of calls. Yes it makes a difference, a big difference to let the critters know that we care and are aware of their shortcomings.
Libby hasn’t been pardoned yet. He WILL be (guaranteed) but not yet. His sentence was commuted. The pardon will come as Bush leaves office. The question is whether it will be before or after the blanket pardon for telecoms and all associated with illegal activites.
I saw that in Glenn Greenwalds reply to Jonathan Alter.
late to the thread (just got in from the hardware store) and haven’t read all the comments yet, but wanted to check to see if we’re all on the same page…
my understanding is that the cloture vote will take place probably on july 8th, after the three amendments. is that the general understanding?
I haven’t seen Keith turn himself and his brain into such a twisted pretzel before last night. Total disappointment.
Either he is twisting himself into contortions, or he doesn’t know what he’s talking about—which such vehemence—either is not a good place to be.
As for Obama, I hate to say I told you so, but . . . . .
He will disappoint us.
Continually.
Hillary wouldn’t have been any better.
Hmmmm, and I was really getting to like Olbermann. I refuse to go down that slippery slope with him.
It is also vital that the ‘LAW’ is not intentionally restrained by bogus claims of ‘National Security’, lest the ‘law’ become the bludgeon, the ‘club’ by which we are all undone.
The law is being made mock of, and, daily begets increasing disrespect.
digg
and jane created a flickr ’firedoglake readers photos’ page. i keep puttin’ it out there to make sure pups know, cuz it’s fun! it got me to get out my camera and make a page, new adventure!!!!…i love seeing all the blogs and photos people post on here, so, am glad she did it…a way for those of us without a blog to ’express’ and share……you don’t have to be a member of flickr to see the pages…..
christy–i posted a few photos from my super-gardener friends’ yard where i am lucky enough to get to hang out whenever i want….make sure you look, it is amazing….will post more later, after i get a new memory card, only holds 12 photos….
i hope more people join and post stuff, i love it and really enjoy looking at the pages.
: )
http://www.flickr.com/groups_m.....tab=member
bbl
KO did a special comment last night about FISA. I watched it, but unfortunately, was unable to come here at the time to see what everyone thought. His take was that either Obama should vote nay or should try to strip immunity and when that doesn’t work, he should vote for it but promise to prosecute any lawbreaking that was done when he takes office. He made no mention of the statute of limitations or the fact that the investigation of lawbreaking would probably exceed the statute of limitations. I think he was just trying to avoid admitting he got on the wrong side of this.
As far as FISA sunsetting goes, a simple extention would seem to resolve the whole issue until after the election and the new President is inaugurated. OTOH, if Congress puts its stamp of approval on this legislation, I don’t see how they can even go back after the election and try to impeach to take away future pension benefits or future positions in government for the offenders.
Yeah, you have the ghist of it. KO realizes he fucked up and was trying to contort his way out of it.
There is no secret Obama plan to prosecute anybody and KO essentailly acknowledged that.
He said if Obama has a secret plan to prosecute, he should announce that minutes after Shrub signs the bill, otherwise Obama should vote no.
You mean Olbermann issued an ultimatum after having Alter waltz around on the whole thing?
But I thought there were ammendments in the works from Feingold and Dodd as well though.
You’re right. But having elevated Obama to the moral high ground (did we put him there or was he really there?), the disappointment is immense and growing, ummm, immenser.
That’s still the published plan in terms of voting schedule as far as I know. Yep.
I too am hoping for a reply.
Is there a timeline somewhere?It sounds like Libby is being gradually let off the hook by his dark lord and master’s master.
Morning Christy and Pups.
All that power, that brain, and beautiful head of bright red hair…
There oughta be a law…
Thanks to YOU Christy.
When do any Feingold amendments come in? Any word?
Hi all, OT here. on a business trip to Venice. (ok, today I’m at the beach on Lido).
BUT, when we went to the Correr Museum last night, the hat check guy was taking a poll from americans on the us election …. yesterday, he was 33 for Obama, 3 for mcsame.
everyone here is asking about the election . . . quite the attention.
yes, and I’m sending my fisa emails from here too (as I work, of course).
Well…Hillary’s healthcare plan was LOADS better than Obama’s “current system + MINOR improvements” plan. Also, disappointment can only come if your “hero” fails to live up to an expectation. I had no expectations for Hillary that were at variance from what she would likely have done anyway. She COULD’T have disappointed me. She could have pissed me off or she could have REALLY surprised me, that was it.
Obama had a lot of hope attached to him. A lot of people read him like a Rorschach and saw “change” as what they hoped he meant by that word. There can be nothing but disappointment for such people. He will repeatedly prove to them that the change they read in his inkblot was not the change he meant.
Glenzilla has a lot of good commentary about KO’s Special Comment, along with a devastating and detailed picture of Obama’s sharp right turn.
i presume that is one of the three:
as per usual, best comments on the net re fisa are from pow wow. all this is covered in pow wow’s latest.
How did Greenwald become Glenzilla. Oh man, I get so depressed when I feel like I am trying to rally myself on the whole FISA thing after reading Glenzilla.
I would hope that between them they would have a buttload of similarly worded, yet different, amendments in their clip so they could bog the whole thing down with rapid-fire amendments, boom, boom, boom, boom, to run out the clock.
One amendment and then goodnight is not really good enough…unless that one amendment actually passes.
That’s about right. But the people surrounding Hillary are toxic. And Bill back in the WH? No thanks.
Yet again we are given the “choice” of who to vote against. I’m so sick of it I could hurl.