Can you talk about the difference between civil immunity and criminal immunity? (If you’ve alreay done this, I’ll take a link). Gracias!!

Feingold & Hardin-Smith 2012!

It’s difficult to say what effected the delay, but Reid seemed to take the executive decision, early, to postpone the bill till later, regardless of what Feingold or other Senate opponents might’ve done to prevent the immunity component from passing.

It’s nice to see that there is still a glimmer of hope. I’ve been away for a couple of weeks with limited internet access, so I was worried that the Fourth Amendment would be gone by the time I got home. I hope we can continue to keep up the pressure.
I realize I missed a lot of the discussion after Obama came out in favor of the House bill. I was profoundly disappointed by that move. Is there any hope that he is merely “posturing” for low-information voters with this one and would still operate with the strong view of the Constitution and civil rights we once thought he shared with us, or do most people think he is in the process of selling his soul for the Presidency? What will we tell our children?

Jeez, I feel like I’m at a baseball game that’s in extra innings and my scorcrad is all maked up with little notations and I just can’t read it, Leahy is with us in this?

Bmaz lined that out the other day at emptywheel’s — there are a number of differences, but the bottom line is this: someone has to want to prosecute the case, and they have to want to do so before the statute of limitations for prosecution has already run out. Which, in this case, would be a scant few months after the new president takes office. Making criminal prosecution highly unlikely, to say the least. Let me see if I can scrounge up the bmaz link for you…

I’m told by folks in both Feingold and Dodd’s offices that Reid was working with them on trying to push a delay to give them more time to work on immunity. Dodd publicly thanked him for it. I’ll try and dig up that link as well. (Juggling twenty things at once this morning…may be a sec…)

Here’s the bmaz analysis on the civil versus criminal liability issue.

I’m wondering if that’s there spin on Reid’s motives. Look forward to reading more at the link, when found.

Will be watching and ready to help with my list.

To those who, from the previous list, want to know ‘who’s side I’m on…’ I’m on the side of:

The Constitution.

The People of the United States.

Those who will stand up for our rights and our freedoms.

Not AssClowns who run away from a fight.

Not AssClowns who have been in office so long they think they have a right to be there.

Not Fascists who see government as a tool to amass more money or power.

People would do better pulling their heads out and….

Thinking for themselves for a fuking change rather than recycle the drivel they suck up from the above listed.

Has been — his staff on judiciary have been working their asses off on this for a while.

A breath of fresh air.
Thanks for this post.
Why doesn’t KO do a “special” on Feingold?

Thank you Russ!

as for Independence Day, Bush has been invited to speak at Monticello for the Naturalization Ceremony. I posted about it last night on PW’s thread, and will take the opportunity again as some firedogs did take action!

Bush at Monticello: Tickets and Protests
Submitted by davidswanson on Tue, 2008-07-01 12:02. Activism
To get in you must pick up free tickets at 7 a.m. on Wednesday at the Monticello Visitors Center. Bring as many people as you can, and each request the maximum of four tickets. Go early!

To protest outside meet at 8 a.m. on Friday at Quarry Park. Please bring posters, signs, costumes, banners, props.

Here’s a map that includes Monticello, the visitors center, and Quarry Park: Map.

Here’s a new flyer: PDF Flyer.

Keep phoning Monticello! The Thomas Jefferson Foundation, a private nonprofit, owns and operates Monticello with a professed mission of preservation and education. Call Monticello right now and ask them to uninvite Bush: (434) 984-9822. Then let the Daily Progress newspaper in Charlottesville know that you’ve done that: enewstips@dailyprogress.com

The Unitary Executive is scheduled to disgrace the grounds of Thomas Jefferson’s house, Monticello, in Charlottesville, Va. During a July 4 naturalization ceremony, immigrants will swear to “support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic” at an event besmirched by the presence of the Constitution’s leading domestic enemy. Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence from King George faulted him for harassment by his troops, elevating the military above civilian power, denying people a fair trial by jury by transporting them overseas to be tried on false accusations, and other abuses that have been matched by our current King George. He has claimed the power to ignore laws, to rewrite laws, to adhere to secret laws, to discard habeas corpus, to spy without warrant, to detain without charge, to torture, to murder, and to lie the nation into wars of conquest. All citizens, old and new, have a duty to support and defend the Constitution, a document that requires the impeachment of a president as criminal and abusive as the current one.

Learn more about impeaching Bush: http://afterdowningstreet.org/bush

For information on the protest, including housing if coming from out of town, call 434-961-6278.

more posts/info here– they are not letting this one go!
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/

i’ll get my pencil that’s in desparate need of sharpeniing and make a note on my scorecard. i thought he ws a let down in an earlier go-round.

Here we go — I knew I’d seen something from Dodd about Reid and the FISA bill.

and there’s the different standards coming in to play as well; “Beyond a Reasonable Doubt” for the criminal prosecution versus the “Preponderance of the Evidence” in the civil cases.

IANAL, but I’ve paid attention to a few legal things over the years. :})

Hello from Jamestown, NY.

There is also a Presidential pardon that forever bar any criminal prosecution of telecoms.

They all play different roles in the negotiations, but often what we see publicly isn’t everything they are doing behind the scenes, ya know? And I often don’t hear about a lot of it until after the fact. Wish there were some way to make a lot of this more transparent, but we’re working on it. *g*

KO is too busy trying to prop up Obama & defend himself - last night’s Special Comment was quite an acrobatic act. I’m really disappointed we are nominating a candidate who has caved on civil liberties, and his supporters are defending his position as ‘he has to do what he has to do to win the presidency’. KO has turned this position into another secret plan (reminds me of the Nixon promise on View Nam).

Bleghhhhhhhhh!

Preview is my friend “Viet Nam”

Thank you, Christy,

That link offers ‘insight’ which allows us further understanding.

BTW, you juggling skills are amazing, all those things going around and up and down, spinning, some with sharp edges, all weighing heavily …

‘Tis awesome!

;~D

I’m glad that we now have a little time to organize even more resistance to this bill but the flip side is that the blind supporters of Obama are also organizing and they are against holding Obama’s feet to the fire on this because they are afraid that it will cause him to lose. This distorted view of democracy will also gives a pass to the other Senators. The “pragmatic” center is busy at work today on several of the blogs and we all know that using FEAR creates a lot of sheep.

he has to do what he has to do to win the presidency

A performance on the casting couch is not the most efficaeous way to get a job.

Just wait until you see what we are working on that we’ll hopefully be able to roll out later today or tomorrow… (She says in her most tantalizing tone.)

Not quite true — the group that was formed to push Obama on the FISA bill among his online organizing tool groups has gotten huge — it’s the fastest growing of all his groups. And I’m positive it has not gone without notice.

The question is whether or not that notice will result in real action…guess we’ll see.

Christy, thanks so much for the update, apologies if this is in any way unhelpful. I realize there are a lot of issues surrounding FISA with which I am unaware as well as the best way for this community to interact with Congress. My understanding is that the Vichy Dems will try to hide behind a group of amendments that strip retroactive immunity out of this very bad bill. The plurality of amendments, as I understand it, is the problem. Some of the amendments are better than others and the plurality allows many Vichy Dems to claim they voted to strip out retroactive immunity. The reality will be that they knowingly split their insincere resistance between several amendments, thus causing all of them to fail. As I understand it, if by some miracle Democrats do strip out immunity that’s veto bait to George Boosh. I’m realistic about our chances here, wrt to stripping out the immunity, but I was hopeful that the strange bed fellows group could unite behind one amendment. (Or in the short run, unite behind asking Dems at least not to vote for the worst amendments in the group, probably Arlen Spectors imho.) At least that way imho, we keep up the pressure and rifle it to correspond to the level of parlimentary manuevering being employed against us. I think going forward that sends a powerful message to Vichy Democrats about our increasing level of understanding about the games they play. When they claim to have voted against retroactive immunity for the telecoms, we’ll come back and say “no, you really didn’t.” h/t to Selise for all her fine work on this.

I am not a lawyer but I know enough to cover this one:

Civil immunity, which is what the Democraps in Congress are desperate to give to the telecoms, means that they get out of court free: all the lawsuits that really stood a very very high chance of going against the telecoms (for good reason) will die with a whimper. We the People will then be protected from ever having to hear the ugly details about how the telecoms, in cahoots with the guvmint, used the Constitution as toilet paper and spied on an unknown number of Americans without warrant or reason (likely simply because they had disliked political opinions or were insistent on the rule of law being applied even to bogus terraist detainees).

By killing the civil lawsuits, this ensures that the telecoms WILL get by 100% free because that leaves criminal liability. This is a dead issue and the recent Olbermann comment doesn’t breath life into it. Bush WILL issue a blanket pardon to protect “patriotic” companies and individuals who helped him spy on Americans without valid reason or warrant. He doesn’t CARE that doing this is an outright admission of guilt because he has absolutely no fear of anything coming of it. He will be exiting the door, ready to rake in HUGE fees for…I can’t say “speaking” because he doesn’t do this…let’s say he will rake in HUGE fees for drooling and making chimp-like sounds in front of adoring Constitution-hating crowds of Milton Friedmanites.

Impeachment is off the table. That means, literally, that the Congress is totally disarmed and absolutely and truly powerless. Less than useless.

Bush will pardon the telecoms and THAT will close off the last possible avenue for finding out what happened. Obama has stated that he doesn’t want to do anything in his term to make it appear that he is simply conducting a “partisan witch hunt” so he has already made it clear that he doesn’t give a f*ck about the Rule of Law, the Constitution, or the country. He simply doesn’t want to rock the boat, same as all other Dems, because it is more lucrative to leave the boat afloat only with them at the helm instead of their doppleganger’s the Rethuglicans.

It’s more than just telecom immunity. In our focus on that, I don’t want to see two other REALLY BAD things about the bill get overlooked.

1) this bill substantially increased the gov’t’s power to spy on us WITHOUT ANY COURT APPROVAL NEEDED. This is Huge people, and Sen Feingold alluded to it in his video.

2) The second, is the HUGE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE that this bill does to the judiciary. It says that the AG can essentially dictate to the court whether what a telecom did was legal, the court basically is forced to accept what the AG said, and then the court CANNOT describe the basis upon which it made its decision , in the written opinion.

Which means no stare decisis

oooooh, tantalize me, lady, tantalize….

we luvs us some great things to look forward to…

Have I mentioned Wesley Clark is my hero?

Amen, sister. As an Obama supporter (having morphed there from being a Gore and then an Edwards supporter), I am having serious buyer’s remorse. The contrast between Obama and Feingold/Dodd and yes, even Hillary, is growing more extreme every day. What a letdown (and don’t even bother to say “I told you so” because I have a long memory and I know that).

I’m intrigued …

You’ve got my attention.

I can hardly wait. See, you’ve got me excited …

I’m gonna tell all my fiends, “There’s another exciting adventure, come on! I don’t want to miss this!”

Absolutely correct — in fact, Sen. Feingold’s office put out a fact sheet on the bill that goes over ALL the problems with the bill. You can read it here. There are a LOT of issues that need fixing — the RESTORE Act was far superior to this on a number of legal levels.

Is there a “Plan B” being organized to start the challenge to the Constitutionality of this bill if passed? Surely your point 2 has to be unconstitutional on its face and it would seem that point 1 is as well, but of course, IANAL. What pathways are there to challenging this?

”I teased some of my colleagues…I said, we can celebrate the constitution on July 4th, and when we come back maybe you’ll decide not to tear it up….I’m deeply grateful for your support.”

christy–when i called kucinich’s office, before the vote, to thank him ahead of time, i brought up the blueamericafisa pac to his office workers, that maybe he would want to tell his fellow reps about the possibility of them being held accountable for their vote……they laughed…..his office has the best staff of any….i just love them……

and fisa talk has picked up here locally on the local call-in show, i don’t even have to bring it up anymore, someone else does…..well, one already did pretty often too, but others are jumping on it and wanting 800 numbers……nice.

1-800-450-8293 capitol switchboard

and beerfart–your leahey scorecard-give him a ’check’—-this time, leahey was the first one out of the barn on tv and radio and on the senate floor saying ’poo’ that barn stinks……

He may be on the couch, but we are the ones getting *ucked.

The ACLU and EFF are already on that Plan B, and have been for ages. So, yes…

I teased some of my colleagues…I said, we can celebrate the constitution on July 4th, and when we come back maybe you’ll decide not to tear it up….I’m deeply grateful for your support.

I hope it was teasing that made some of the critters squirm.
–Has the robo call for Steny Hoyer been put into effect yet? If so, any kind of reaction being seen?

Here is imho just a horse-sh*t piece of journalism done on Feingold last week by the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, far and away the largest daily in Wisconsin.

Feingold fights for privacy over surveillance legislation

It effectively and politely regurgitates all the White House talking points.

I have a prediction of how Obama beatst his rap - when FISA comes up for the vote, Obama will conventiently be on his European tour. He will then criticize the bill & lament the lost amendments - but still be in the clear. Much like that crappy Lieberman bill on Iran.

One would hope that the point 2 issue would be a winner with the judicial (broken) branch because it shouldn’t take too kindly to being shoved back as the weak and powerless sibling in the official government trio. The second item eviscerates any Constitutional authority of the courts and renders them sock puppets.

Well, he hasn’t exactly been in the clear in the past for not bothering to show up for votes. At least, not here anyway. *g*

Dodd:

We are going to come back in 10 days. I mentioned the housing bill, but also the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act is a source of significant controversy. While I have serious objections to it, and appreciate the opportunity I will have to strike section 2 of that bill dealing with retroactive immunity, I want the record to reflect the deep appreciation I have for the majority leader — I know others do as well — for the way in which he and his office have allowed us to achieve the results we have up to this point.

I find this from the linked page rather cryptic and a bit confusing. One could read into this that there is no connection whatsoever between the delay and what Dodd wants. Basically, he’s addressing the onlookers, not Reid, perhaps, in an attempt to dragoon Reid to his position. There’s no indication that Reid shares his views on FISA, at any rate.

you guys are gonna love this, I just got an email from the obama campaign, check out my resonse to the email which is second;

Hi David

Before we found out the senator’s position on this FISA capitulation, this presidential candidate inspired hope with me and my family that our constitution might be returned, that the government will again be for “the people” and by “people”

Yet we find the senator has capitulated and as far as I can see, he has corrupted himself with a corporate agenda.

An agenda I thought would never come from Barrack Obama’s campaign, since it is we, “the people” who funded his rise along with the hope and promise of just such a candidate.

I’m sorry David, I will no longer spend either time or money on this candidate, he has corrupted himself with the very first challenge and I have no faith he will do the people’s work, he has already forsaken his oath to “protect the Constitution”, he has already broken his promise to defeat any FISA bill with immunity for criminals.

With said “immunity” a telcom official, using the cover of his position, can take my manuscript and publish it for himself, if I have a new engine design that will deliver 20 percent higher fuel efficiency at no cost in power, (I do), the telecom can take that invention and I will have no redress.

If a depraved “official” using the cover of their position wanted to follow my wife or child, I will never be able to discover that depravity and bring these people to the bar of justice.

If there were government officers who used information gathered to blackmail lawmakers into passing law or defeating law, we will never know.

Please feel free to forward this letter, these thoughts and my position to whoever it might concern.

I would like you to include the following;

While someone like myself could not possibly vote for McCain for office, before this decision the senator would have energized real patriots to vote who might no have otherwise.

Now, with his position on this FISA bill, there will be people who feel betrayed and who would rather not vote at all rather then vote for a man who has clearly corrupted himself, ignored his oath to our constitution and broken a promise.

Sorry

zed

— On Tue, 7/1/08, David Plouffe, BarackObama.com wrote:

From: David Plouffe, BarackObama.com
Subject: One more thing
To: “zed mitchel”
Date: Tuesday, July 1, 2008, 3:38 AM

zed —

The crucial midnight deadline is just hours away.

The results of our fundraising from this month will be used to gauge our strength against John McCain and the RNC.

But there’s another reason why every dollar you give right now is so important — we’re building the first 50-state presidential campaign in a generation.

By making your first contribution before the midnight deadline, you’ll be investing in the growth of this unprecedented movement at a time when the resources are needed the most.

Please show your support by making a donation of $25 right now:

https://donate.barackobama.com/midnightdeadline

It’s been less than four weeks since Barack became the presumptive Democratic nominee, and here’s what supporters like you have already made possible:

Staff and offices in 21 states
134 campaign offices open across the country
Nearly 1,000 field staff on the ground, supported by more than 3,500 Obama Organizing Fellows
And we are literally growing every day.

Your contribution today is an investment in the organization and staff we’ll need to expand our operation in all 50 states.

Every single staff member on the ground and every single new office we open will help us to register more new voters, bring more volunteers into our campaign, and build our grassroots movement all across this country to help Democrats win up and down the ballot in November.

That’s why a dollar you give today to help us build our campaign will do more and have more of an impact than a dollar you give in October or November.

Make a contribution of $25 to invest in our 50-state campaign:

https://donate.barackobama.com/midnightdeadline

Thanks for everything you’re making possible,

David

David Plouffe
Campaign Manager
Obama for America

Paid for by Obama for America
This email was sent to: zedunofitzeroo@yahoo.com

To unsubscribe, go to: http://my.barackobama.com/unsubscribe

This is one of the errors in the JS article linked above.

The bill would revamp the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which was passed in 1978, after the Watergate scandal, and does not account for recent changes in technology.

Anyone have a link to a list of all the updates to FISA since 1978? Or just a compact way of saying that assertion is completely untrue. Thanks.

He probably will be out of the country so he can avoid one of his NUMEROUS “present” votes.

Retroactive immunity is not the most directly harmful part of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, but it conveys messages Congress should not be sending and ends discovery we so much need. But if Congress won’t refuse to grant retroactive immunity, they’re not likely to seriously weigh the immediately harmful giveaways in the bill, so I’ve quit complaining as much about the retroactive immunity amendment being the issue most discussed. It’s the tip of the iceberg, but at least it is getting discussed.

What are the chances that we can attack this from the standpoint of, “Just because you pass a law does not make that law Constitutional. This law purports to limit the powers of the Federal Court to a preordained position. It shreds Amendment Four of the Bill of Rights. There are ways to rescind Amendments to the Constitution, but this ain’t it, so until/unless I see a Supreme Court decision that verifies the legitimacy or Constitutionality of this legislation, I consider it just another piece of trash put out by the trashy 110th Congress under the leadership of Nancy Pelosi (Speaker of the House) and Harry Reid (Majority Leader).”

I agree. I was just fishing for what the actual pathway would be to a SCOTUS challenge to the Constitutionality of the bill, especially since the bill would effectively end the EFF suits that I am aware of and the statute of limitations will run out before criminal charges can get organized in the next Presidential term (if Bush hasn’t issued blanket pardons, which he almost certainly will).

I agree this group has gotten huge (I’m #826) and I think we are in the majority but there is still an effort to stop us that we shouldn’t forget. Wherever I see posts by the “pragmatists” I make sure that I leave a comment opposing what they are advocating. I figure if we don’t then it might fool people into believing that they have the dominant view.

Yeah, but he’s not playing to “us” anymore - he’s gotten what he needed and he’s moving on.

Agree.

I think one reason we’re so focussed on retroactive immunity for the telecoms is that if by some way we could strip that out, Bush would veto the whole bill.

I can’t speak for most people, but I think he sold his soul for the Presidency! Shame! So much talent; so little courage. Either that, or he’s making the same mistake his predecessors made: listening too much to political consultants. That in itself shows a lack of judgement! No backbone! No courage of his convictions!

I actually do think that a Constitutional challenge could be mounted with respect to several provisions of the bill. Some of the writing David Kris has been doing about the bill, seem to imply that as well.

But, that means that by the time it is struck down, every conceivable Statute of Limitation will have expired.

Kabuki, eh?

Good point.

Because everything unconstitutional is done in absolute secrecy (even from the courts!) there is no one with “standing”. How can ANYONE bring a case to court against the telecoms OR against the law itself if no one can show “harm” because there is no evidence that they were illegally spied upon?

The criminals in Congress have found a HUGE loophole in the system. Pass a clearly unconstitutional law but in such a way that there can NEVER be anyone with so-called “standing” to bring a case against the law (or government).

We need an Amendment that gives all people automatic “standing” to bring cases to court whenever a basic constitutional right is gutted/abrogated by a shitty law. EVERYONE has standing when a law exists that sidesteps our constitutional rights. By definition.

That is what I feared. That doesn’t diminish the importance of taking up the fight, of course. As Christy points out, we owe it to the next generation to correct these wrongs. Even if the perpetrators go free, it is vital to restore the Constitution to full functionality.

btw, I was talking to a member of Senate staff earlier this week, and they were telling me that calls were pouring in last week — at a higher volume than usual. And that it did get a lot of notice, especially because a lot of them were coming from in-state constituents. You guys were a part of that and it was very much appreciated. It really gave Feingold and Dodd the leverage they needed to push on this legislation to get a pause and build more support for their amendment.

In re Obama, there has been no sea change in his political posturing. They’ve just moved into sharp relief as he has emerged from the political slime.

oops, I forgot my response, check this out;

Hi David

Before we found out the senator’s position on this FISA capitulation, this presidential candidate inspired hope with me and my family that our constitution might be returned, that the government will again be for “the people” and by “people”

Yet we find the senator has capitulated and as far as I can see, he has corrupted himself with a corporate agenda.

An agenda I thought would never come from Barrack Obama’s campaign, since it is we, “the people” who funded his rise along with the hope and promise of just such a candidate.

I’m sorry David, I will no longer spend either time or money on this candidate, he has corrupted himself with the very first challenge and I have no faith he will do the people’s work, he has already forsaken his oath to “protect the Constitution”, he has already broken his promise to defeat any FISA bill with immunity for criminals.

With said “immunity” a telcom official, using the cover of his position, can take my manuscript and publish it for himself, if I have a new engine design that will deliver 20 percent higher fuel efficiency at no cost in power, (I do), the telecom can take that invention and I will have no redress.

If a depraved “official” using the cover of their position wanted to follow my wife or child, I will never be able to discover that depravity and bring these people to the bar of justice.

If there were government officers who used information gathered to blackmail lawmakers into passing law or defeating law, we will never know.

Please feel free to forward this letter, these thoughts and my position to whoever it might concern.

I would like you to include the following;

While someone like myself could not possibly vote for McCain for office, before this decision the senator would have energized real patriots to vote who might no have otherwise.

Now, with his position on this FISA bill, there will be people who feel betrayed and who would rather not vote at all rather then vote for a man who has clearly corrupted himself, ignored his oath to our constitution and broken a promise.

Sorry

zed

Did anyone cath Olbermann’s special comment last night? I tried to stay up an watch it during the replay but didn’t make it. Olbermann alluded that Obama will have to either promise to criminally prosecute the Telecoms if he gets elected or vote no. I am sure I can find a youtube somewhere of it. Just curious if anyone did get a chance to watch it?

God bless him, his hair is going grey.

Can you imagine how hard it would be, to be the first judge that gets this bullshit system in live time? Basically, you are going to have call Mukasey–who I’m told was pretty popular with his fellow judges–a liar and fraud. Then you are going to have deliberately disobey a statute, after writing a REALLY well researched decision showing why the statute is unconstitutional.

Then you will probably face a judicial conduct inquiry. Because Congress won’t so it’s job, the judiciary has been doing an awful lot of heavy lifting for the last few years. Now this Admin, and this Congress are going after the judges.

It’s sickening

I listened to Olbermann’s Special Comment last evening and was rather shocked at three things he said. In the first two he claimed to be paraphrasing a conversation he had with John Dean.

1. Bush’s accomplices would not accept pardons, because that involves an admission of guilt. In fact, one does not have to “accept” the pardon until the last second, and even then the acceptance is only implicit and has no consequences. The Iran/Contra participants had no compunctions about accepting their pardons, and neither did Libby.

2. Bush would not grant a blanket pardon, because that would e tantamont to an admission of guilt on his part. Look Bush, through a spokesman has already admitted to authorizing waterboarding, and said he’d do it again. He knows no shame, but wants to protect his accomplices and himself. (BTW in 2000 John Dean wrote at FindLaw that a president can pardon himself.)

3. That the pending law (H.R.6304, the FISA Amendment Act of 2008) would “restore FISA.” In fact, FISA is current law. The Protect America ACt of August 2007 cut a big temporary hole in FISA but expired in mid-February. (The year-long programs authorized under the PAA expire between August 2008 and mid-February 2009.) You and David Kris and Marty Lederman have pointed out that H.R.6304 guts FISA. (And I wish people would stop calling it “FISA.”)

Olbermann is in a position to do a great deal of good, and I think his heart is in the right place. I just wish he’d start reading Glenzilla every morning to get his stories straight.

by the way, I am “zed” on obama’s site, thought the firedogs might get a kick out of that

Watched it twice - KO promoting a secret plan for Obama and basically saying Obama should do whatever he needs to win. Then, he can do clean up on aisle 4th amendment later.

Good Morning Christy and Firedogs -

man oh man they make it difficult to find where they will be on the 4th.

Everyone must keep calling local offices to find that info.

here’s something inspirational to watch while you’re on hold - love me some seniors !

ps - there’s a quote from Justice Powell in Katz addressing the notion of “technology” wish I could find it. yeah I think the technology argument is bunk, why do you ask ?

I am convinced that even the blindest of the blind can see that “we the people” are a scosh disturbed by the lack of backbone. Every time I called someone the line was busy, the recording full or the person I spoke to was aggravated by the number of calls. Yes it makes a difference, a big difference to let the critters know that we care and are aware of their shortcomings.

Libby hasn’t been pardoned yet. He WILL be (guaranteed) but not yet. His sentence was commuted. The pardon will come as Bush leaves office. The question is whether it will be before or after the blanket pardon for telecoms and all associated with illegal activites.

By killing the civil lawsuits, this ensures that the telecoms WILL get by 100% free because that leaves criminal liability. This is a dead issue and the recent Olbermann comment doesn’t breath life into it. Bush WILL issue a blanket pardon to protect “patriotic” companies and individuals who helped him spy on Americans without valid reason or warrant..

I saw that in Glenn Greenwalds reply to Jonathan Alter.

late to the thread (just got in from the hardware store) and haven’t read all the comments yet, but wanted to check to see if we’re all on the same page…

my understanding is that the cloture vote will take place probably on july 8th, after the three amendments. is that the general understanding?

I haven’t seen Keith turn himself and his brain into such a twisted pretzel before last night. Total disappointment.

Either he is twisting himself into contortions, or he doesn’t know what he’s talking about—which such vehemence—either is not a good place to be.

As for Obama, I hate to say I told you so, but . . . . .

He will disappoint us.

Continually.

Hillary wouldn’t have been any better.

Hmmmm, and I was really getting to like Olbermann. I refuse to go down that slippery slope with him.

It is also vital that the ‘LAW’ is not intentionally restrained by bogus claims of ‘National Security’, lest the ‘law’ become the bludgeon, the ‘club’ by which we are all undone.

The law is being made mock of, and, daily begets increasing disrespect.

digg

and jane created a flickr ’firedoglake readers photos’ page. i keep puttin’ it out there to make sure pups know, cuz it’s fun! it got me to get out my camera and make a page, new adventure!!!!…i love seeing all the blogs and photos people post on here, so, am glad she did it…a way for those of us without a blog to ’express’ and share……you don’t have to be a member of flickr to see the pages…..

christy–i posted a few photos from my super-gardener friends’ yard where i am lucky enough to get to hang out whenever i want….make sure you look, it is amazing….will post more later, after i get a new memory card, only holds 12 photos….

i hope more people join and post stuff, i love it and really enjoy looking at the pages.

: )

http://www.flickr.com/groups_m.....tab=member

bbl

KO did a special comment last night about FISA. I watched it, but unfortunately, was unable to come here at the time to see what everyone thought. His take was that either Obama should vote nay or should try to strip immunity and when that doesn’t work, he should vote for it but promise to prosecute any lawbreaking that was done when he takes office. He made no mention of the statute of limitations or the fact that the investigation of lawbreaking would probably exceed the statute of limitations. I think he was just trying to avoid admitting he got on the wrong side of this.

As far as FISA sunsetting goes, a simple extention would seem to resolve the whole issue until after the election and the new President is inaugurated. OTOH, if Congress puts its stamp of approval on this legislation, I don’t see how they can even go back after the election and try to impeach to take away future pension benefits or future positions in government for the offenders.

Yeah, you have the ghist of it. KO realizes he fucked up and was trying to contort his way out of it.

There is no secret Obama plan to prosecute anybody and KO essentailly acknowledged that.

He said if Obama has a secret plan to prosecute, he should announce that minutes after Shrub signs the bill, otherwise Obama should vote no.

You mean Olbermann issued an ultimatum after having Alter waltz around on the whole thing?

But I thought there were ammendments in the works from Feingold and Dodd as well though.

You’re right. But having elevated Obama to the moral high ground (did we put him there or was he really there?), the disappointment is immense and growing, ummm, immenser.

That’s still the published plan in terms of voting schedule as far as I know. Yep.

I too am hoping for a reply.

Is there a timeline somewhere?It sounds like Libby is being gradually let off the hook by his dark lord and master’s master.

Morning Christy and Pups.

My proudest moment as a blogger was being teased by Rep. Conyers about being the person who unleashes thousands of phone calls and FAXes on his office –

All that power, that brain, and beautiful head of bright red hair…

There oughta be a law…

Thanks to YOU Christy.

When do any Feingold amendments come in? Any word?

Hi all, OT here. on a business trip to Venice. (ok, today I’m at the beach on Lido).
BUT, when we went to the Correr Museum last night, the hat check guy was taking a poll from americans on the us election …. yesterday, he was 33 for Obama, 3 for mcsame.

everyone here is asking about the election . . . quite the attention.
yes, and I’m sending my fisa emails from here too (as I work, of course).

Well…Hillary’s healthcare plan was LOADS better than Obama’s “current system + MINOR improvements” plan. Also, disappointment can only come if your “hero” fails to live up to an expectation. I had no expectations for Hillary that were at variance from what she would likely have done anyway. She COULD’T have disappointed me. She could have pissed me off or she could have REALLY surprised me, that was it.

Obama had a lot of hope attached to him. A lot of people read him like a Rorschach and saw “change” as what they hoped he meant by that word. There can be nothing but disappointment for such people. He will repeatedly prove to them that the change they read in his inkblot was not the change he meant.

Glenzilla has a lot of good commentary about KO’s Special Comment, along with a devastating and detailed picture of Obama’s sharp right turn.

i presume that is one of the three:

Dodd-Feingold-Leahy amendment to strike immunity;
a Specter amendment which is relevant;
a Bingaman amendment re: staying court cases against telecom companies

as per usual, best comments on the net re fisa are from pow wow. all this is covered in pow wow’s latest.

How did Greenwald become Glenzilla. Oh man, I get so depressed when I feel like I am trying to rally myself on the whole FISA thing after reading Glenzilla.

I would hope that between them they would have a buttload of similarly worded, yet different, amendments in their clip so they could bog the whole thing down with rapid-fire amendments, boom, boom, boom, boom, to run out the clock.

One amendment and then goodnight is not really good enough…unless that one amendment actually passes.

That’s about right. But the people surrounding Hillary are toxic. And Bill back in the WH? No thanks.

Yet again we are given the “choice” of who to vote against. I’m so sick of it I could hurl.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t take much to be on higher moral ground than the existing administration or the presumed Republican candidate. So, we are stuck with a Dem Candidate who maybe feels he doesn’t have to lead a fight on Serious Moral Issues.
It’s so sad that the timing on this FISA vote has missed the primary, where we had the opportunity to choose the real candidate for change.
Anyone else wondering about the timing on this? Pure bad luck, coincidence?

Aren’t all those things you are referring to characteristics of a civil suit? I am talking about pursuing this criminally. The law itself is illegal. Why couldn’t any prosecutor file a criminal suit against the Congress for passing an unconstitutional law? Surely there would be some way!

Through the first 99 comments at DailyKos, no one has pointed out to him that the FISA vote on July 8th has been limited to three amendments (only one of which can pass by simple majority), to be followed immediately by a cloture vote, and that if cloture is invoked, a vote on final passage the same day. Unfortunately, comments in Ben’s DailyKos diary raise false hope about possible delaying tactics via amendment, with regard to Feingold’s intention (pre-UCAgreement) to offer 6 amendments, which is now not possible.

EH? Mami?

On the matter of death penalty for rape, Obama is to the right of the majority of SCOTUS including three of its seven Reagan/Bush appointees. That’s where he thinks the center is. That’s where he thinks he can pick up a lot of “low-information voters.”

It’s almost as though Bob Shrum, who writes the best concession speeches in the business, has joined his strategy team.

Here’s Kos:

I was going to max out to him today, given I haven’t given Obama a dime yet (focusing on congressional candidates). But I changed my mind. He wants to send the message that he doesn’t need us, all the power to him. Message received. I’ll spend that $2,300 somewhere else.

Update: I’m curious as to why people think that me saying I won’t give Obama my $2,300 somehow means I’m undermining him. When he gives me a reason to open up my wallet, I will. But I also refuse to reward bad behavior.

When Republicans lost Congress in 2006, Rush Limbaugh bleated that he was happy, that he no longer needed to “carry water” for the GOP. Me, I’ll never carry water for our team. I’ll reward good behavior, and trash bad behavior.

If you want sycophancy, this isn’t your place.

I guess they are limited to three?

The “best” part of this is if the FISA abortion actually passes en toto (no small thanks to Obama), then we will actually have to ho e that the Rethuglicans find the Constitution and clamor for the law to be fixed so that Obama can’t spy on Americans sans warrant.

The GOPers are enthusiastic for unconstitutional spying up the ying-yang so long as a GOPer is in charge of that unconstitutional spying. What happens when an uppity black man and a Democrap is the one with the Dem-approved “Unitary Executive” authority to do no wrong?

not the aforementioned quote, but Justice Powell clearly agrees with us :D

also from Katz

“This protection was even more needed in ‘national security cases’ than in cases of ‘ordinary’ crime, the Justice continued, inasmuch as the tendency of government so often is to regard opponents of its policies as a threat and hence to tread in areas protected by the First Amendment as well as by the Fourth.”

I don’t know who invented that nickname, but it seemed very appropriate to me after watching him verbally shred one journalist after another, morning after morning.

the ben thing is old news. yesterday, i left a comment for ben from pow wow (as per pow wow’s request) - ben saw it and is on board now.

In the WaPo0, Al Kamen had an “In The Loop Libby Pardon Contest” for folks to predict when Libby would be pardoned.

I predicted 12/24/08 in honor of Bush I’s pardoning of Cap Weinberger et al for Iran/Contra

I confirmed with Feingold’s office this morning that the Dodd-Feingold-Leahy amendment to strip out immunity altogether is: s.a.5064 to h.r. 6304

oldwiseone See Profile I’m a Fan of oldwiseone
Obama seems to me to be smarter than most, so I have to assume he knows what he is doing. He does have to get elected first and if the problem is minor, as it appears to be from these posts, then it would be a mistake to create trouble now

.

This is one of the comments I was talking about earlier in this thread. These people are trying their best to stop any kind of dissent so it’s important that we continue to post on blogs that discuss this issue so that these people don’t have a chance to convince others that by disenting you are creating trouble for Obama.

Kos was pure gold on this. And absolutely right.

I hope his statement rings loud and clear in Obamaland.

If anyone has nice photos of pro-fourth amendment floats in their fourth of July parade, or nice signs, or anything of that nature, I hope they will post them.

ot but related–

anyone hear anything about the gov requesting to access any bank transactions similar to telco-due to corps and individuals avoiding taxes with off-shore transactions?
couldn’t believe it, right in the middle of the fisa fight……

heard it on radio this morning……npr i think.

and anyone heard any more on the credit card transactions thing that was hidden in a bill? i didn’t catch which bill it’s in……and haven’t called about it yet–my hero dodd was involved in it, need to get the whole story.

so, check list–
gov’t can-
track phone activity-check
track bank transactions-check
track credit card use and purchases and locations-check

after all of that, what’s left to know about all of us?

Some, probably including Olbermann, think of Kos as the leader of a mighty army, IMHO a mighty crazy army, but I sure appreciate them. ;-)

which lends credence to the theory that Obama wants that kind of power.

Here’s what I’m most concerned about aside from FISA and the Constitution, of course— there’s a whole generation of young idealists who look at Obama as the great hope of a nation, because he’s set himself up as one. They’ve registered dem in droves, raised money, gotten active. Obama starts showing his true colors and does not produce what people have projected him to do and we will have lost a whole generation of potential activists. They will feel burned, scar up and walk away from the whole dirty mess.

I don’t even know who ben is. I just meant the three amendments, only one to pass on simple majority. So what do the others pass on?

Cup size?
I’m kidding of course. S’more important to me to know someone’s heart size.

60 votes — the whole thing was agreed to in a consent agreement. Marcy had the details last Friday here…

That should have come with a spew warning.

Cap, I remember Cap.

Yesterday evening I received a call from a local group asking if I would join them in a “get out the vote” drive next weekend. It was an Obama for President group. As soon as I heard “Obama” I told the caller that because of Obama’s pro-warrantless wiretapping position on the upcoming FISA bill, I am no longer able to support Obama for President.

I have also been sending contribution slips back to the DSCC, DCCC, and Obama campaign (those with postage paid return envelopes) with a donation of $0 noted, plus a quick explanation why: because of warrantless wiretapping, immunity for telecoms, for the military commissions act, for GITMO, for continued funding of the Iraq occupation without ANY strings, and because “impeachment is off the table”.

I do so enjoy sending these back on their dime, so to speak. I will do it as often as they care to send me those abominable donation requests.

On his current course, Obama will not get elected; he is repeating the mistakes of Gore and Kerry. In the words of Harry Truman, when a “Republican runs against a Republican, the Republican always wins.”

Saw-ree. :)
Will someone remind me Why they need all this information about us?

So Feingold’s is simple majority? I am not complaining that Spector, Bingamn have a 60-threshold, but I wonder how amendments get treated differntly.

After 1976, the conservatives gradually purged the Republican party. The last non-conservative Republican in congress was Lowell Weiker.

IMHO, it is time for a purge of the Democratic party, even if it takes a generation or two, by God, let’s get it done.

In the age of ‘Stupid’, it is axiomatic that ‘National Security’ becomes the be-all to end all.

Reasonable and thoughtful beings would examine and rectify this untenable state of affairs. I don’t think we are ‘there’ yet, because our ‘belief’ in our myths, regarding just about everything, will not admit of, ever, being part and parcel of the means by which we are kept in subjection …

repeated for emphasis ;

On his current course, Obama will not get elected; he is repeating the mistakes of Gore and Kerry. In the words of Harry Truman, when a “Republican runs against a Republican, the Republican always wins.”

I believe that should read, “when a democrat runs against a republican as a republican, the republican always wins”

but whatever is the original, we get it, now obama has to get it

Because Feingold, Dodd and Leahy used the leverage of all the calls and FAXes to force the issue, and negotiated it with Reid and McConnell. Which says a couple of things: (1) McConnell doesn’t think that 50 votes are there for this amendment just yet and (2) that we need to push on it so they are, to the extent we possibly can.

Christy, I’m sorry, I just remembered to ask about your FIL’s surgery! I’m assuming everything went well? I can tell you that, although I guess I looked really bad, my quadruple bypass wasn’t as bad as I had expected. That was due to massive amounts of drugs! I never had morphine before! Don’t get me wrong; it’s no walk in the park. Just not quite as painful as I expected. I think the weakness got to me more. Opening a two liter bottle of pop, a pop-open can of pet food, getting up from a kneeling position, any seemingly simple act was very difficult due to lack of strength. Anyway, hope he has family around to help him and he’ll be back on track in about two to three months. Does he live nearby?

somehow I don’t think he will.

People who would “trade essential freedoms for a bit of security” are cowards.

Candidates who pander to cowards for fear of losing their votes are metacowards.

Obama doesn’t do cower; he does metacower.

Okay. Er god. We should make critter staffers work the 4th of July. Or risk working overtime the 5th of July? Apt punishment I hope.

—
Aside. Is Clinton AWOL from the Senate these days. Umm, does she plan to return soon?

demi at 111–they’d know that from your credit card purchases….by whether you mail order them or not….unless you order that new stretchy racer back one size fits all thing……

: )

She’s been back and has participated in some stuff as of last week. She missed the FISA votes, as did Obama, though. We need to push for more leadership from them both.

so it seems the democrats are self destructing, obama is doing what it takes to lose the supporters that made him our candidate and his very best to lose this election

well, we’ve done it before, we’re gonna do it again, king mkkkain is looking more and more likely

50 Votes? I thought Republicans only need 40. ;-)

Today Obama will exhibit his “fight on serious moral issues” - ensuring he is on board with Bush’s faith based initiative. I know he is trying to broaden his appeal to Evangelicals (good luck with that) - but I thought that program crossed the line in the separation of church & state. He is really becoming a panda bear.

He came out of surgery pretty well yesterday. We’ll no more over the next 24 hours or so, but so far, so good. They live clear across the country, so it’s been rough with Mr. ReddHedd there and The Peanut and I at home for the last two weeks — but we have great friends and family who are chipping in both places, so that makes it a bit easier for everyone.

Keeping our fingers crossed for continued improvement for both parents — they are both still in the hospital out there. It has not been fun, let me tell you…

Oh man, don’t get me started…

I read something about this yesterday. Senator Grassley inserted the language into Dodd’s banking bill. I will see if I can find a link for you.

He’s trying to walk the line between church and state and support for community groups with this one. They issued a statement earlier today because the AP misreported a couple of things in their story. I’ll see if I can find it…

from the American President

“I was so busy trying to keep my job that I forgot to do my job.”

Per Glenzilla, Obama has:

* unveiled plans “to expand President Bush’s program steering federal social service dollars to religious groups and — in a move sure to cause controversy . . . letting religious charities that receive federal funding consider religion in employment decisions,” a move that could “invite a storm of protest from those who view such faith requirements as discrimination” — something not even the Bush faith programs allowed.

A real understatement.

1,690 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Thank you for promising to offer a venue for more citizen action on the FISA boondoggle…I would like to suggest that this next two weeks of effort be the beginning of an ongoing organized campaign of people power to culminate in Denver during the week of the Democratic Party convention. This FISA fight is not only fundamental because the Constitution depends upon it, but it is a litmus test for whether or not Obama can govern. I have said this before including to a number of staffers at Obama Campaign HQ this last 10 days but I would ask that everyone give me a listen on this today because I think we are runnin’ out of time not only to save the constitution but to save the new grassroots progressive movement that is growing in response to the institutionalizing of corporate fascism that has taken place over the last 14 years and in the last 8 in particular.

If Obama can not use the cadre of Senators that are now on record opposing telecom immunity and the despoiling of the 4th Amendment to garner the 40 votes necessary to stop this abomination or to garner 51 votes for an amendment to strip immunity from the bill, then his strength to command an agenda in the first three months of his administration to pass legislation that will define America for the next several generations is emasculated. His unwillingness to stand on a constitutional principle while commanding a majority in the upper chamber, makes a very telling statement about both his real fundamental political values and also his political skills to organize, communicate, initiate and pass legislation.

It is my contention that we can survive a one term John McCrazy administration if we control super majorities in both houses of congress more than we can survive a one term Clintonesque-Carter cartoon of democracy. Make no mistake, if we allow Obama to tack to the corporate “middle” and to concede political power and the Constitution to the Federalist Society in return for a four year rental of the White House we will be setting up a consolidation of fascist power under a Clinton-Bush administration in 2012.

It is then my suggestion that we begin to train ourselves in citizen action that translates netroots people power into the street. We can begin in the next two weeks over FISA and then take those core experiences and alliances and build a movement to protect progressive grassroots organizations like MoveOn from being Sista Soulja’d and used as political scapegoats by a desperate Obama candidacy. Then we can create a well organized and completely NON_VIOLENT mass movement to descend on Denver as a progressive “truth squad” to force Obama and the corporatists who are slowly gaining control of his candidacy to acknowledge that he can’t win without the democratic principles he articulated in gaining the nomination. We have to force our leader to go where we want ‘im to go in return for putting him where he wants to be.

It’s called political hardball but it’s basic democracy that was stolen from us by organized political terror beginning in 1968 and has become institutionalized.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION WE CAN’T STOP FIGHTING BECAUSE LOSING IS NOT AN OPTION!!

I don’t know what happens to ‘progressive’ Democrats. They get to where they want and feel compeled to move center-right to protect their ambitions. Nancy Pelosi was great until she became speaker of the house. Obama was great until he decided he needed to dance right to get elected.

One problem with power to the people is most people don’t want power. They prefer to bemoan the mess in Washington or where ever rather than decide things themselves.

Har har. Another advantage of being a DFH…unless I’m going to work or church…I don’t wear one and I happen to know I’m not the only free spirit here.
And, I try to use cash as much as possible…really, I’m not a very interesting person. I still can’t imagine why they want to know so much about me.

I hope everyone out there in liberal land is done drinking the Obama kool-aid. Reality check: First, Obama was allowed by the “Democrat Powers That Be” to have the nomination in return for towing the line. Second, Democrat politicians are the conservatives, happy to keep the status quo because they benefit as part of the corporate/political ruling elite. Republicans are reactionary, as the move back to the days of J.P.Morgan and the Robber Barrons under every Republican administration since Nixon has proved. What we need is real progressive thinking leadership in this country, none of which is available this election cycle.

The last week from Obama has made it impossible for me to vote for him and I will be voting third party for the fourth election cycle in a row.

McSame cannot be a king unless Congress lets him. People forget that. They say things like “The SCROTUS! The SCROTUS! What about the SCROTUS!?” while ignoring the fact that a President doesn’t get to choose who sits on the SCROTUS, he only nominates candidates. The Congress gets to say yes or no. CONGRESS decides who sits on the SCROTUS.

Thus, any problems with SCROTUS appointments must be born by the CONGRESS, in this case, the DEMOCRAPS. THEY decide who sits on the SCROTUS and it is they who should be pushed to do their damn job for once and actually say NO to more Alitos, Scalias, Roberts’ and Thomas’.

from thomas, i can find 4 amendments: s.amdt.5058 (cardin), s.amdt.5059 (specter), s.amdt.5060 (whitehouse and difi), s.amdt.5064 (dodd, feingold, and others).

maybe the whitehouse/difi and cardin amendments got dropped?

i can’t find the bingaman amendment, but eff has info and the text.

praedor at 115–

my dad uses the pre-paid credit card solicitation envelopes to let him know whether his mail has come or not..

he stuffs a brochure from somewhere in there, and puts it in the box, flag up….credit card company has to pay postage.

he was a corporate accountant, he said they’ll never see the expense in the budget, bleed them one stamp at a time, he wishes more people would do it….

threefold thrill for him–he detests credit card companies and warned me back in the early 80’s about them, he hates junk mail and also wants to know if the mail came yet.

pretty funny when i realized what he was doing.

This is the overarching strategy we must adopt, embrace, and dare to live.

Christy I just wanted to say you are wonderful. You and the gang make all the nitty gritty easier to understand by answering– like you know– some of my stupid questions, in a coffee talk way (rather than yucky academic way.)

Part of the prep for Denver should (must) include planning (and acting accordingly) to ignore the “Free Speech Zones” of chicken wire and chain-link being planned for nice, sedate, and ignorable protesters.

No more Free Speech Zones! The entire country was intended, and always has been, a free speech zone by definition.

No to fences!

Citizen anghru:

I have said the same thing to a number of staffers in the Obama national HQ and they have responded by desperately and energetically trying to keep me from takin my money from the campaign but then from takin my vote to a write-in. I think that Obama’s organization is beginning to understand that he risks losin the election right here if he doesn’t break with the corporatists.

Yeah, we should all just ignore the fact that the federal bench appointees from McCain would be just as odious as those who have come from Bush and Cheney. Boo yah for the Federalist Society and the Bork clones, then. Because Congress can’t put up better appointees on their own — and what we would get if they consistently rejected the crappy ones is an empty federal bench and a deadlocked court system.

That’s just not workable, no matter how many insults you toss into your comment. I know people are cranky and fed up, but you shouldn’t lose sight of reality just because you are pissed.

sorry for the delay, just trying to catch up on the comments now.

hopefully cboldt and pow wow will be able to tell us about all the little tricks of the senate’s kabuki - right now it looks to me that agreeing to have the bingaman amendment require 60 votes for passage was a stupid capitulation (or kabuki).

i find the senate much harder to follow.

Your dad’s approach is very cool!

Obama does seem to doing his best to piss of the base that got him the nomimation. However, at this point, you go with the candidate you have not the one you really want.

I find it ironic that even the great orange one is bemoaning Obama’s transition to the center and vowing not to donate to his campaign (this, after he shoved Obama down our throats & turned any criticism of Obama as latent racism). Ah yes, the irony indeed.

We shall have a measure, Norske, soon, of whether anyone is listening.

When critically important things are said, and there is but little response, one must assume that ‘priorities’ lay ‘elsewhere’.

You have pointed us the way.

So I have a meeting scheduled with Joe Sestak tomorrow who voted BushDog on this and maintains he did the right thing. I don’t know if I can bring myself to sit in his office and even talk with him. I know I’ll break down in tears—which is what I do when I’m so angry and feeling helpless.

McSame cannot be a king unless Congress lets him.

they allowed george to be king, they will allow mkkkain, the will only stop a democrat from assuming these powers

I know people are cranky and fed up, but you shouldn’t lose sight of reality just because you are pissed.
You are so right. Not always an easy thing to accomplish every day, but that reminder should be at the top of every post.

I think that Obama’s organization is beginning to understand that he risks losin the election right here if he doesn’t break with the corporatists.

thower of flames, I hoke you are correct

I sent him an e-mail yesterday tell him that I will no
longer be contributing because of his vote on FISA.

what email addy did you use?

when I used return email I was defaulted back to a form letter and I am certain they do not read those

I found this over at slashdot about Dodd’s mortgage bailout bill referencing the electronic banking transactions. FYI

Because Feingold, Dodd and Leahy used the leverage of all the calls and FAXes to force the issue, and negotiated it with Reid and McConnell. Which says a couple of things: (1) McConnell doesn’t think that 50 votes are there for this amendment just yet and (2) that we need to push on it so they are, to the extent we possibly can.

i’m pretty sure i disagree on this. since the amendment is germane, it only requires a simple majority - unless by UC or because those opposing it object (and then they have to go through the hassle of a cloture vote on the amendment - in effect it would make the opponents filibuster).

in this case, a UC was used - ie a capitulation just like the jan 31 UC (and why i think dodd was successful on 12/17/07).

do i have the parlimentary procedures wrong?

You will not cry.
Your anger will strengthen you to stay on message, get answers and impress the man with your convictions.
You will be wonderful.

Went to his Congressional web site.
www.house.gov

I did that right after the vote.

Part of me wants to cancel the meeting, part of me doesn’t. Don’t know what to do.

The EFF seems to support Bingaman’s above all. No hope for 60 votes I guess?

If the Senate is resolved to pass legislation granting immunity, it it ought to at least know what conduct it’s immunizing — It should give itself an opportunity to revisit the issue after it has the IG Report in hand.

Actually I think I might want to use that line above myself.

Late but two action related points on my mind:

SenatorObama-PleaseVoteAgainstFISA@groups.barackobama.com is now the second largest group action blog on Obama’s web page!!!!

Also been trying to sort out where my senators might show themselves while home on vacation this week so I could ask them about this issue personally.. And it’s impossible… they seem to be in hiding on the 4th of July.

Apparently Obama believes that a vote against the FISA bill would open him to charges of being soft on terrorism…Don’t know if that’s true or not- but he thinks so…

It’s hard to pressure politicians into taking a position that they perceive as suicide.

Sidetracked with medical stuff. Back soon and thanks to everyone who cares so much about this wackadoodle country!!

He already knows the strength of my convictions and I’m crying just thinking about it. Not sure I can do it.

Go Feingold!

Can we get a voice like this as a candidate?

(((Rev)))

ask him straight up if he’s read the bill - that pos contains a section on WMD for goodness sakes.

and here’s that handy 1 pager I was waving around last week(h/t mcjoan)

GO ! You can’t tell him what you think if you are not there. Give him a punch for me. When he ran the first time, I read about all the candidates across the country and chose him for one of my contributions - which I told him in my e-mail - and he let me down. I asked for a reply to my e-mail. We’ll see.

irish at 134–thanks
====
well, have to call and check in with my sister about my new niece–1 yr old terrier/scottie mix, she’s wanted a dog for two years, finally has her……she’s sooooo happy, just like a little kid…..named her ’libby’ for liberty.

and sunny and cool, time to go plant some hostas in pots for the deck….and take more pics for my flickr page! lilies are coming out.

take care pups

bbl

Talk about Feingold reminded me that we checked the MSNBC Veepstakes and believe it or not Feingold was defeated by Sam Nunn. Can you believe people are that stupid?

You will be strong. Look him in the eye and ask him what his sworn duties are? I remember meeting Dodd last winter when he was campaigning in Iowa and I thanked him for his support. He simply stated: It is a really easy position for me, I took an oath to uphold our consitution and protect it. He said that seems pretty straight forward to him.

Keep up the great work and God Bless!

yes

You know the rule — always take the meeting.
I wish I could go with you, it worked out well when I went with Loo Hoo to Daryl Issa’s office last summer. I’m the emotional blonde who can’t keep the look of incredulous distain off my face. Loo Hoo stayed with the questions. Like good cop, bad cop.
Is there someone you can take with you to the meeting?

What I want to know is which advisor(s) has his ear on this. We need a solid push to get Obama to reject and denounce them, period.. and how on earth abandoning the constitution is acceptable on any term, much less political suicide. That’s just BS even if it’s truly how they perceive things.

Citizen Hardin Smith:

This last resort of timidity by using the threat of more fascist appointments to accept a powerless Democrat in the White House ignors the lessons of the last 6 years of Mr. Bill’s presidency. The fascists simply held up almost every single federal appointment until they got control of the White House again. Our federal court system is broken now, Democratic supermajorities in both houses that would hold up every single appointment to the federal bench, including SCOTUS, would not do anymore damage to the system than has already been done.

Our entire system of government is terribly wounded and can not withstand one more “liberal” corporatist administration but a people powered progressive congress could get us through another rump fascist one.

No — but I think you have the dynamics behind the scenes wrong, according to what I’ve heard from folks in both Feingold and Dodd’s camps. They didn’t have the 41 votes to prevent cloture — they did several nose counts and came up short each time. So they moved to plan B, which is to strip out immunity which would require things to go back to the House or to conference, depending on what is selected (another delay), and then potentially force a veto (another delay) to work on this again.

If you don’t have the votes, you do not have them. And they don’t on cloture — and I’m told they aren’t likely to get them no matter the push. So looking at a strategy that is dependent on cloture wasn’t going to work in their eyes, hence the plan B.

I already told him very boldly in an e-mail to his home address. His reply was polite—too polite. In a nutshell he said he had been following the bill closely and wondered why I doubted his patriotism and love of country. He thinks it was the right thing to do. Did he actually read it? I don’t know.

strongly advocate non-violence training from the experts, affinity groups formation and planning (for legal support, jail support, medic support…..) this is already happening and there are grroups we can plug into. will have more in a future thread if you are interested (and maybe you have suggestions for groups we can join up with also?).

Brendancalling would love to come, but if I go I need to do it myself.

The people voted 62% to 38% for Nunn. AMAZING.

The current vote is:

Hillary over Clark 62% to 38%
Edwards over Bayh 56% to 44%
Biden over Bloomberg 68% to 32%
Sibelius over Nunn 51% to 49%

Of course this may just be MSNBC manipulating the votes. I guess will know if Bayh beats Edwards. There is NO way Bayh has more national support than Edwards.

I quoted his oath of office in the e-mail I sent. It would seem that he thinks he’s doing just that.

Yes, the GOP-controlled Senate held up the Clinton appointments. SInce they have several members facing a tough re-election battle this cycle in several states (including Mitch McConnell who has not been polling well of late, btw), that dynamic is different and the lessons learned from it are this: fewer asshats to block legitimate judicial appointments makes for better judges.

except that if Stevens and/or Ginsberg leave the court for whatever reason, that leaves everything with, at best, a tie, at worst, well . . . . welcome to the new corporate SCOTUS. They’ll probably sell ad space in front of the bench.

I think a lot of the folks who voted for this are not well-versed in con law issues. A lot of times the legal people on their staffs aren’t well-versed in them either, having been regulatory attorneys or folks who worked for particular government agencies but who haven’t had to deal with crim law or subpoena or privacy issues. It’s a specialized area.

He could have asked questions — and should have — but didn’t. He could have talked with Holt or Nadler or any number of people who were working on the constitutional issues. He should do so now if he wants to understand what was wrong with the vote. Tell him that.

and here’s that handy 1 pager I was waving around last week(h/t mcjoan)

thanks for re-posting that (I bookmarked it this time). Seems to me that John Dean and KO should be looking at this paragraph:

No cause of action shall lie in any court against any electronic communication service provider for providing any information, facilities, or assistance in accordance with a directive issued pursuant to paragraph (1). [Sec. 702(h)(3)]

What part of No cause of action shall lie in any court shows that only civil cases are barred, and excludes criminal actions against the telecoms?

Did he actually read it? I don’t know.

that’s why I linked the one pager - pop quiz material :D

i think i’m with PraedorAtrebates @ 143 on this.

the example you give of bork is a good one - because bork was rejected by the senate (as roberts and alito should have been). and so then reagan nominated kennedy instead.

i’m no big fan of kennedy - but he did write the boumediene decision and is not one of the fascist four.

Alrighty then.
If you do go, you will have the full support of the mighty lake lifting you up.

badwatwer at 152–he’s way cool, he cracks me up. i’m lucky to have him (and equally cool mom)….am making oatmeal raisin cookies for him for his birthday or nova scotian oat bread or cranberry oat bread…..will see him later this week, can’t wait.

maybe i’ll put up a shot of them on my flickr page later….a funny one.

bbl

Citizen Hardin Smith:

If what you have described as the “dynamics behind the scenes” is correct, then my argument for pushing Obama AND THE JUNIOR SENATOR FROM NEW YORK to commit their political skills and power in the party toward stopping this thing dead is even more pressing. If the combination of Obama and Mrs. Bill can not move a few Democratic senators to get the number to 41 then we must go to plan “B” and give ‘em the political strength from the streets of Denver.

Somehow I’d love to see this go back to the House where this flaming crap started. Don’t know if that’s the best scenario, but it really satisfies my sense of revenge somehow.

The president nominates. If we have a president who is going to belligerently continue to nominate Federalist Society clones, then how is that remotely useful? If we vote for someone who has no chance in hell of being elected so that the person who has already said he will nominate Alito, Roberts, Scalia and Thomas’ idioclogical soulmates to the bench ends up winning, how is that remotely useful? Your vote for president isn’t just a vote to be used as a cudgel — although that can be useful at times. It also needs to come through an evaluation of what could be — and what could be is judges who think like Erwin Chemerinsky or David Cole or others who would have more of a say in selections in an Obama administration than they ever would with McCain, where they wouldn’t even be allowed in the door.

I could not disagree more with this — but that’s because I have seen the ruination of the court system up close and I take it personally because it should not be this way. The only hope we have of restoring any of this is to get better nominees. And we sure as hell are not going to get them from McCain. At least with Obama, we have a shot at someone more thoughtful. And since Kennedy was appointed in the era before the highly partisan litmus tests were put into place by the GOP, I’d suggest everyone go back and re-read the book and salon with Jan Crawford Greenberg for a glimpse as to how ideologically pure the corporate mantle has to be before any lawyer gets a nod to the federal bench on their end of things these days.

Obama isn’t making me happy at the moment, but McCain is far, far worse.

What a great thread. Thank you Christy Harden Smith and everyone for this continuing discussion.
I feel hopeful right now.
And RevDeb…you rock on tomorrow. And, if you just can’t make it, I hope you don’t feel bad about that.
Am heading out to the garden before it gets too hot.
(First tomatoes and bell pepper on the dinner table last night.)

Where have you been? We’ve consistently had both of them on the call and FAX lists for weeks now.

I’m concidering my own political party, to be called the Pragmatic Party. My slogan will be “Can we drop the agenda and just try something that works.” Many people I have talked with about this, both Dem and Rep have expressed great interest for some practicality, but alas I have no money or time because I am one of the working class that is living one or maybe two economic hicups from losing everything I own.

but that doesn’t explain the UC - why capitulate on the 60 votes for the bingaman amendment? that one seems much more likely to be able to get a majority.

the only way i can see to really block this bill was to find a poison pill - something that would elicit a veto from bush but would be able to pass with a simple majority. dodd and feingold were within their rights not to agree to a 60 vote majority requirement on their amendment. i don’t think our calls were needed for that - i think our calls are needed to block cloture (since the route of the poison pill was not used) just because we don’t have the votes now, doesn’t mean we can’t get them before the 8th… and yeah, i’m not going to hold my breath - but neither am i going to give up while there is the slightest chance.

nothing but cockroaches will survive 4 years of a McSame presidency. or did you somehow miss the bazillion links on his military response to EVERYTHING.
the man would nuke Blockbuster over late fees.

flame if you must dear elder :D

Too true …

Citizen Hardin Smith:

No, with all due respect, what we learned from the experience of 1995-2000 is that the Federal system did not collapse even in the face of the complete obstruction of appointments. The SCOTUS would still sit even with 7 or 8 members. We are facing a situation in which any more Democratic capitulation to fascism will terminate democracy entirely. This is a not simply a political crisis but an existential one for the fabric of our society is torn and will be completely ripped assunder unless we are willing to stand up against the political terrorists that are those with whom you are calling upon us to compromise.

No, he just won’t pay the late fees until he’s caught, just as he and his wife failed to pay their CA property taxes until they were caught. It’s pretty normal for wealthy Republics.

after obama’s position on shredding the constitution via this fisa bill, i don’t trust him to nominate reasonable judges. in the case of more corporatists nominations - any chance of the dems blocking an appointment is there only if they are blocking a republican potus’ nominee. no way are they going to oppose an obama nominee.

Your ideas are most sound, and I would suggest that it is just such persons as yourself, not removed elites who MUST comprise the new ‘leadership’ primarily because you truly understand.

Your true power and ‘wealth’, of wisdom and determination, is what enriches our present and predicates the nature of our future.

I salute you, amghru!

for you and other Nutmeggers

I expect we will have a “moderate” Democrat in the WH. I sorta realized that when the choices were paired down to Obama and Clinton, and Harold Ford expressed great satisfaction, plus all the other stuff (nothing to do with the Lamont campaign, and previous mentors or anything/snark).

maybe we’re just going to have to disagree on this one. because if we can’t press the issue when we expect to have dem majorities in both houses of congress - when can we?

i’ll just quote mary here:

What they do is to take the base for granted and act to pick up those who are not in the base. So if you want to have any negotiating power, you have to be something other than the base. You have to be the votes that they have to work to capture, not the givens. And that means being willing to not be captured if they aren’t going to come through, IMO. Which means you have to be committed to the long haul, not the short run

p.s. when you write “I take it personally” it sounds like maybe you think i don’t? i hope that is not the case, because i do too. it’s not that we are advocating for different goals - just strategies on how to get there.

Too bad the poll doesn’t count in those folks who are absolutely frothing at the mouth, cause their “friend” Joe turn on them.

Citizen Hardin Smith:

Come on now, really, I have been up to my neck in this for the last couple a weeks…we have allowed BOTH Obama and Mrs. Bill to skate on this, you can not tell me that if they appeared in public tommorrow and issued a joint statement in support of the Dodd amendment and a fillibuster that the Democratic Party leadership would not find the few votes necessary to stop this thing. And if they couldn’t muster the stregnth to do that then we must give them the strength by goin’ to Denver and forcing them to commit to ending the war and restoring the Constitution or not gettin’ elected. Simply put: there can be no more compromising with fascism, this election is about our very existance as a democracy. I for one am not gunna be cowered by political terrorists anymore.

you have a point, but I think we are screwed either way at this point.

When I write “I take it personally,” its be cause I do — this is a huge issue for me. It has nothing to do with how huge an issue it may or may not be for anyone else. And now, I have to go and clean up dog barf…ugh.

yeah. all the center-right actions obama has been taking (and moving further to the right) have not made me happy - but i don’t think they were enough to keep me from voting for him.

the fisa constitutional issues are a different matter altogether - because he knows his con law, i presume he knows exactly what he is doing. and that is advocating to consolidate these powers for himself. that is what i find so outrageous.

and righteous. Think rage of Biblical proportions. Think Deborah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah

And now, I have to go and clean up dog barf…ugh.

Thanks for sharing.

thanks christy.

so sorry to hear about the dog mess. jeeze like you don’t already have enough to deal with.

Citizens DWBartoo and amghru:

Yes indeed,this is where it all begins, but the next step is NOT to break with the Democratic Party (yet)…the next step is to get folks in forums like this one and others to organize themselves to hit the streets and use grassroots orgs like MoveOn to create a national organizing and training base for the next step which is the march on Denver. You two folks can be a cadre of two to make this happen.

Don’t you have the rule that s/he who sees it cleans it up?

Simply don’t “see” it.

Ta-da! Leave it for the husband.

oh yeah. if we had a good choice, i don’t think we’d all be angsting about what to do.

but we don’t, so we’re all just trying to figure out what is the least bad of our choices - but they are all problematic (that is my simplistic take anyway)

Deborah did not rage. Her sissy general who happened to be named Barak, by the way, was unwilling to go to war unless she went with him.

5 And she sat under the palm-tree of Deborah between Ramah and Beth-el in the hill-country of Ephraim; and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedesh-naphtali, and said unto him: ‘Hath not HaShem, the G-d of Israel, commanded, saying: Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with thee ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun?

7 And I will draw unto thee to the brook Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into thy hand.

8 And Barak said unto her: ‘If thou wilt go with me, then I will go; but if thou wilt not go with me, I will not go.’

9 And she said: ‘I will surely go with thee; notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thy honour; for HaShem will give Sisera over into the hand of a woman.’ And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

Kinda says it, huh?

[digg] CHS’s Feingold

[digg] obama fisa blog

I just received this email from my rep. John Yarmuth. It was awful nice of him to send me a personal invitation to talk with him so I could find out if the recent reports in my newspaper about the pork he is bringing back to my community had anything to do with his recent flip-flop to vote YES on the FISA bill.

Congress on your Corner
This Thursday, 5:00-7:00 PM
Fourth Street Live!

Dear Patty,

As Louisville’s Representative in Congress, it is critically important that I hear directly from you. That is why I bring the Congress to you with neighborhood events I call “Congress on your Corner,” an informal, friendly get-together at a store, restaurant, library, or mall in Louisville. I invite you to sit down with me to talk one-on-one about your legislative concerns and areas where you may need assistance with federal agencies such as the VA, Social Security Administration, or your Medicare bill.

If I may be of service to you, please do not hesitate to call me or my staff at (502) 582-5129. I hope to see you at a “Congress on Your Corner” event this week or in the near future. Thank you.

Sincerely,

John Yarmuth
Member of Congress

Personally, I like the idea of demonstrating (and being willing to carry through with) that we are NOT votes to be taken for granted. I like the idea of making it clear in NO uncertain terms that, “No, we wont actually vote for you regardless of what you do or say. You actually have to come through!”

The Dems and Obama take us for granted, and too many are acting the part by stating that they WILL vote for Obama anyway. That does what, exactly? Why should he tack leftward, or beyond “left” and “right” straight into Constitutional Land which has not “left” or “right” bias if he will still win no matter what?

Consequences. There must be REAL consequences and he must be made to see that he is really facing some painful ones for betraying his oath to the Constitution, let alone his legal training. Obama should be disbarred for his unconstitutional pandering. He spits on the highest law of the land.

OK - you’re right - she did not rage. But you’ve got to admit - she got it done.

One of the weirder things is that the Hebrew name for Deborah, ‘Dvorah’ actually means “the bee” and it was given to girls partly to be a spur to them to be industrious.

yep. civilization would not be able to be sustained without pollination. We’re learning that the hard way.

Yes Norske, our ’support’ must NOT be hostage to fear. Indeed what ‘fear’ there is, or should be, is that we shall NOT proffer our support.

The d’s have counted on dividing us, just as the Rovian ‘calculation’ does, most successfully. The d’s need to be served notice: “IT is YOU who have betrayed US, AND the PRINCIPLES which this nation MUST needs embody”. As Obama is the defacto ‘titular’ head of the party it is fitting that on his head the weight of truth should fall. In this game of ‘chicken’, let ‘them’ blink first.

They work for US, or they can seek employment elsewhere.

What is our leverage if we must always start from scratch?

Those who seek power (and great wealth) had best dance to OUR (’our’ meaning the people’s) jig, or not one damned thing has ‘changed’.

And if it doesn’t begin to change NOW, clearly, then it may well be too late.

Do not capitulate!!!

Citizen DWBartoo:

Now yer groovin’ Brother DW…don’t stop on my account, you have got it all tightened up, now make some more DWBartoos!!

He is going to get charged with being too soft on terrorism any way. That is simply going to happen. They can always point to the fact that he opposed invading Iraq to support that point. The problem is that now nobody knows what he stands for and whether he stands for anthying at all. The RNC meme of the week is: “Obama will say or do ANYTHING to get elected.” Obama is wrecking his brand, cutting his own throat.

Ding!

Just bouncin’ off ya, Norske.

;~D

How are the younger members of your family dealing with the shrinking Obama?

Hopefully by shrinking away from the bastard and focusing energy into going to Denver to make a WTO/Seattle type protest happen.

Yes, Praedor, sans ‘cages’!!!

Spencer is upstairs

This from that handout seems way wrong:

Applications for warrants, in FISA78, were required to be approved by the Senate. This was sound practice and consistent with Constitutional separation of powers. It provided a check-valve against executive abuse. FISA2008 allows for the Senate or the Deputy Director of the FBI to authorize these applications, opening the door to executive branch abuse.

Section 104 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1804) is amended by striking “Senate—” and inserting “Senate, or the Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, if designated by the President as a certifying official-” [Amd. Sec. 104(1)(D)(ii)]

What the hell would the Senate be doing in approving warrants? Perhaps he means the FISA court rather than the Senate, but he makes this error in more than one place.

Playing catch-up, epu’d I guess. Don’t cancel, never know what voice might tip a scale.

pmorlan at 225–funny your rep says ”that I call…” congress on your corner, my rep calls it that, too…

once a month at the local library a rep from his office is there……

Hi, Toby. I’m late to respond, ’cause I was out, but, yeah. I know Deborah. That’s my name too!
Mother, judge, warrior.
It’s a hard handle to live up to. :)
(Hope you are well, dear.)

Collateral stress symptoms.
I rarely have to deal with that, but when i do, I start with a spatula.

Much appreciated.

Good point but Feinstein is already on record re the ‘gun’ decision that her support for Roberts and Alito was based on them saying they’d follow ’stare decisis’, which they didn’t.

I’m also waiting for an answer to your question.

Catching up on this thread late. Feingold is a treasure. As are you Christy, thanks for all your hard work.

I too loved the fact that my calls to the capital last week met with busy lines, harried staff who were hearing from many outraged callers about FISA, full mailboxes. Keep it up folks! And find a way to get another few people calling and writing!

Speaking of which, I just called and harangued a staffer at Obama’s DC office. She politely listened to a lengthy impassioned plea then told me that the Senator supports the Dodd Feingold Leahy amendment. I said, terrific but that’s not enough. He needs to get out front with Feingold and the others who are LEADING on this issue.

Thanks, I appreciate the sentiment. I find it discouraging that I am one of the “Dirty Hippies” that the Good Senator from Illinois is trying to distance himself from now. I have already contacted my new Dem Senator Casey and informed him that I voted for him to vote opposite of Santorum and because of his last FISA vote I would do everything in my power to see he does not recieve another term on my dime. He wrote back to me that although it is an imperfect bill that it was necessary for national security. Blah, blah, blah.

Unbelievable news from Utah. Just got wind that Morgan Bowen, Democratic candidate for Utah’s 1st District currently held by Republican Rob Bishop will have a press release out later today taking a stand again the FISA bill, and retro-active immunity.

For those who aren’t familiar with Utah’s political landscape, it is the land of Blue Dog Jim Matheson - who of course supports retro-active immunity. Matheson traditionally calls the shots in the state, often leveraging his position as the only Democrat in the state’s federal delegation to squash real leadership against the Blue Dog agendas.

Hoping this becomes a big deal.

So you reside in Penn’s Woods?

Where, if I may ask, in the sylvan reaches, do you call home?

Meself I am, since but a solar journey ago, now in Pittsburgh, having traded the low-lying fields of western Chester for the ups and downs of Allegheny county.

I have also known the forests of Centre, having mis-spent my youthitude in that most central of Pennsylvania’s Land Grant University towns, State College.

Re: Casey, Senator, Pa. ‘D’

Casey = timid middle

Specter = timid piddle

The middles will piddle

& the Piddles will muddle,

It’s all quite as ‘opaque’

As a roiled-up mud puddle.

Complicity rules …

HA! DUGG that MFker too.

Stupid DanGerstein and Short-ride Joe…

– If you don’t have the votes, you do not have them. And they don’t on cloture — and I’m told they aren’t likely to get them no matter the push. So looking at a strategy that is dependent on cloture wasn’t going to work in their eyes, hence the plan B. –

Opponents don’t have the votes for any of the amendments. The Senate passed S.2248 (easily, not close AT ALL), which was stopped in the House.

The UC agreement (see Legislative Calendar of June 30, 2008) sets forth the COMPLETE order of debate and votes, leading to the Senate passing exactly the same language that was passed by the House. Given the whip counts on previous attempts (see S.2248) I see no place in that process to cause delay or defeat on passage of H.R.6304. Period.

The objectors gave their consent to the process that is spelled out.

– i’m pretty sure i disagree on this. since the amendment is germane, it only requires a simple majority - unless by UC or because those opposing it object (and then they have to go through the hassle of a cloture vote on the amendment - in effect it would make the opponents filibuster). –

“Germane” is irrelevant as to whether or not the cloture widget can be applied. An amendment that is not germane is at risk of being excluded on a point of order. The post-cloture environment [post the cloture vote to limit debate on final passage of the bill] includes this:

No dilatory motion, or dilatory amendment, or amendment not germane shall be in order. Points of order, including questions of relevancy, and appeals from the decision of the Presiding Officer, shall be decided without debate.

The 60 vote hurdles for the Bingaman and Specter amendments is a time short-cut that works the same hurdle that would occur if opponents of the amendment objected to voting on the amendment. The fact that there is a UC agreement with a 60 vote threshold tells us that the objectors have thrown in the towel.

If they didn’t agree to that, the alternative process would have been to offer the amendment, having the GOP object to voting it on a straight majority, the GOP filing a cloture motion to limit debate on the amendment, and then 60 votes needed to limit debate. If they don’t get the 60 votes, debate continues. The amendment can be withdrawn by the person offering it, but they can’t be forced -by the rules- to withdraw it. Just the same, the typical reaction on failing to get 60 votes to limit debate is the proponent (of the amendment) agree to withdraw it so the legislative process can go forward.

Try this

http://www.cnss.org/fisa.htm

Good stuff here

American Bar Association accuses President Bush, of violating both the Constitution and federal law.

http://www.informationclearing.....e12294.htm

OMG!!!! Maybe Feingold’s delay will pay off.

NEWS YOU WON’T FIND ON CNN

American Bar Association-accuses President Bush, of violating both the Constitution and federal law.

02/13/06 — Full text American Bar Association Task Force Report

American Bar Association

Adopted By The House Of Delegates

RESOLVED, that the American Bar Association calls upon the President to abide by the limitations which the Constitution imposes on a president under our system of checks and balances and respect the essential roles of the Congress and the judicial branch in ensuring that our national security is protected in a manner consistent with constitutional guarantees;

FURTHER RESOLVED, that the American Bar Association opposes any future electronic surveillance inside the United States by any U.S. government agency for foreign intelligence purposes that does not comply with the provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, 50 U.S.C. §§ 1801 et seq. (FISA), and urges the President, if he believes that FISA is inadequate to safeguard national security, to seek appropriate amendments or new legislation rather than acting without explicit statutory authorization;