I am going to vote for Barack Obama in November. There is not even an iota of doubt in my ex-military mind about that, but it does not mean that I am going happily into the voting booth; it does not mean that I endorse, or even like all his policies and the stands he has taken on issues. And it does not mean that I endorse his message of trading freedom for some abstract notion of security that infringes on the 4th Amendment of the Constitution. Okay, this is not really a post about FISA and Obama, but about Leading vs Following and why it’s so important in this election.
Leadership according to Webster is:
3 : the act or an instance of leading
Let’s examine briefly the 17 months of the Democratic primary and the leadership (or lack of it) that was demonstrated by two candidates, Hillary Clinton and the presumptive nominee, Barack Obama. In the case of Hillary, she could not get herself away from her focus-grouped and consultant-driven position on her vote on the Iraq War and then she gave her full-throated support to the Lieberman-Kyl legislation which was essentially providing cover for our Beloved Leader to tell Congress to kiss his ass if he decides to go Bomb Iran. Why? After being beaten up over her vote for Iraq and to quote her:
"Obviously, I would not vote that way again if we knew then what we know now."
Then she went ahead and voted for Lieberman-Kyl. Did she vote with perhaps a nuanced position? Maybe. Do nuances matter? Absolutely, but only if they can be explained in a way that is consistent with reaching the least attentive of the "low-information voters", otherwise all the explaining is going to be lostin the noise surrounding the fury of not showing up to lead. Recall for a minute the words of Scarecrow last year:
Wednesday’s vote on the Lieberman – Kyl resolution, condemning Iran and allowing the designation of its Revolutionary Guards as a "terrorist" entity, was a litmus test for candidates seeking the Presidency. The vote separated the wise from the foolish, and Senator Clinton voted — again — for foolish.
We were seeking leadership from a woman who had repeatedly told us she was a leader, but when pressed to demonstrate it, folded like a cheap card table under the weight of a single deck of cards.
It’s pretty obvious that in the "win at all costs" Democratic Primary/Media-driven horse race, each candidate was competing to get their message out and the underlying message that they seemed to want to send was "I am a Leader". Hmmm…maybe not so much. If you Google "Obama + leadership" you get a return of about 12,500,000 results give or take a few in about .22 seconds, that’s a lot of writing about Obama and Leadership… During the primary Hillary told us she was ready to "Lead on Day One", and Obama has told us as far back as 2005 that he strives for leadership, and has drawn comparisons (not inexpertly) to JFK on matters like Iraq.
"Nearly four decades ago, John F. Kennedy took responsibility for the Bay of Pigs Invasion. He admitted that mistakes had been made. He didn’t spend a good deal of time publicly blaming the previous administration, or the other party, or his critics. And through these decisive actions, he earned the RESPECT of the American people and the world – RESPECT that allowed his diplomacy to be trusted a few years later during the Cuban Missile Crisis."
"Americans everywhere are crying out for this kind of LEADERSHIP today. They want to find pragmatic solutions to the difficult and complicated situation in Iraq. They want to move forward one of the greatest foreign policy challenges that faces this nation in a generation. And they want to get it right for every American son and daughter who’s been willing to put their lives on the line to defend the country they love. It’s time for us in Washington to offer the rest of the country this LEADERSHIP. Thank you."
That’s all well and good, and there are more than a few examples of Obama claiming that he is ready to assume the mantle of Leadership that comes with being the President and I sincerely believe that he means it, but I wonder if he really understands what he’s saying.
In a crisis, the leader is generally the first person to step and take charge, to begin to take steps to mitigate or defuse what is causing or has caused the crisis in the first place. Do I think that Obama would be a superior man in another disaster like Katrina? Absolutely.
In a time of uncertainty, a leader is the person who gathers the facts and begins to soothe the collective fears of those dependant on them for guidance and begins to "think outside the box" for solutions to end the uncertainty. Will Obama perhaps be bold and visionary like FDR in the coming financial turbulence which will rock not just our country but perhaps most of the world? I think he’s got a good chance to do just that.
And in both of those cases, and any other challenges that will face our next President, we must be assured that he will provide Leadership that is consistent with the U.S. Constitution, because on his first day in office he takes an oath to support and defend it.
So why does he feel the need to not show Leadership by stepping onto the floor of the Senate to oppose bad legislation, but in fact blithely shovel the 4th Amendment straight onto the trash heap of history and follow the wretched leadership of Jay Rockefeller and Steny Hoyer by making a statement like this:
“It is not all that I would want,” Obama said of the legislation, which was negotiated by congressional leaders of both parties. “But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence-collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise but do so with a firm pledge that, as president, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the inspectors general and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives — and the liberty — of the American people.”
Would you not expect a Leader to stand up and make it "all I want"? Or is that just a bit of misplaced naivete on my part?
So let’s see, if I may parse for a moment here… he assured us he’d support a filibuster, and support Chris Dodd and Russ Feingold’s efforts to strip immunity from the bill but now, not so much. Not leadership.
He has never gotten up on the Senate floor and said "I support rewriting FISA, and updating it to include the new technology that has come into existence since it was written in the 70s, because the world has changed. But I can not, and will not support, retroactive immunity for lawlessness on the part of this or any other administration". That statement would stop this immunity nonsense in its tracks. All of a sudden the media would have to be explaining what in the hell he was talking about to those "low information voters" and I suspect that the fight would be joined rather vigorously by Congresspeople that until now have been a bit lethargic against allowing the Telecoms (and perhaps by extension, the 1600 Crew) to walk away unscathed.
No, he has been mysteriously quiet, nary a peep in support of either Dodd, Feingold or a filibuster, and instead after telling us he knows what leadership is, exhibited none at all. Not only that, he now says after lying bald-faced about his support of Chris Dodd and a filibuster, "trust me" to enforce this new bill. Trust you? No, Mr. Obama… I trust Leaders. Not back-sliders.
And certainly not folks who stick their fingers into the wind, run from a fight to support the Constitution, or practice the fine art of Clintonian triangulation. Because being the first to put your finger into the wind is not leadership, it’s just following the prevailing breezes for better or worse.
Related posts:
- The Democratic Leadership Thinks We’re Stupid
LeadershipWhite House Threatens Freshmen Who Won’t Vote For Supplemental- Status Quo? Hell No! When Leadership Means Partisanship
- OLC: “Look The Other Way” Doesn’t Count As Leadership
- “Preventive Detention” Plan Shows Urgent Need for Leadership and Accountability at OLC





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The Wexler thread was great!
Mighty fine post, Jo Fish. Thanks!
Sadly, Jo Fish, I agree with your apprehensions. I hope that Rep. Wexler will help his friend Obama stiffen his spine. But I read the recent newsmagazine (the pink suit one) about Cindy McCain — expecting to come out with a sour taste. I didn’t. She came off okay, despite her various personal problems. Who cares if she’s obscenely rich as long as she is a decent person. I don’t know how anyone could read about how Cincy McCain has lived her life and find her unworthy. It was the first time that I actually thought, oh my god/McCain is likely to win. So, even though I’m extremely annoyed by Obama at this moment, I just am unwilling to risk several SCOTUS appointments. If i have to go push Obama’s spine up by myself, I’ll do it.
i don’t think the flip-flop on fisa immunity has anything to do with fingers in the wind. there is not a constituency of americans calling for telco amnesty. that’s why i think obama must like the idea of being able to spy on us.
wish i had another way to understand what he’s done – but i don’t think he’s running for elected office so that he can defend the constitution and our rights. or even so that we can have honest goverment.
Info on an easy & free way to fax Sen. Obama over here.
Obama will never be a leader. He’s had numerous chances to do so in this campaign.
He never stood up.
The Hill really did some growing and surprised me on more than one occasion especially at the end with what she was saying and how she framed it.
why should he listen to us even for a nanosecond if he knows he has our votes no matter what?
He’s running so he can be President.
Nothing less.
Nothing more.
Hear hear Jo.
if you could give some explanation or evidence to back up your assertions, i’d give them more thought.
Oh, and here are some thoughts I posted earlier today in a thread on another site.
Selise, I think that there is a constituency of Americans who want expect to see a man who says what he means, and carries through on his promises.
Everyone expects politicians to lie. A lot. But Obama has been running as a “different” kind of politician. He stepped up and made a stunning speech on race, secured the nomination not too long afterwards, and for some reason he’s stopped there.
After eight years of lying, I really don’t want any more.
What sort of proof do you need. His voting record is a sick joke. He misses a lot of votes and the one’s he makes….well supporting Cheney’s energy bill is a very progressive positition, right?
Where as he on Roberts and Alito?
He flip-flops more than Kerry and McCain combined generally considered the sign of a political opportunist.
He has not set of core political principals, see voting record again, and admit only to politically expedient posititions.
Do you know what his position is on a woman’s right to choose and give examples of when he voted to assert same.
I am surprised you would defend the guy as anything OTHER THAN an opportunist. It’s pretty plain to see.
You can also leave a message here.
I wonder if most Americans are aware just how far the spying program goes. The fear mongering on the right has been quite effective.
In any case and this is just my opinion, it doesn’t put aside the fact that BO isn’t willing to protect and defend the constitution.
Tell ya what. Polls show 81% of Americans oppose the ‘government spying on them…’
But you see there’s no PAC or 527 spending tons of cash to ‘influence’ our esteemed Reps., you did notice that Wexler never answered any question about WHY Congress want, lusts, just has to give the Telcos immunity, did you not?
There’s no sound of a tree falling in the forest unless someone ponies up the frikin’ CA$H!
That’s why the esteemed Rep. kept his yapper shut. He knows that massive amounts of cash have created the FISA ‘cave in’.
Obama is showing strong leadership when it comes to drill oil at any cost and the gas tax holiday. Drilling has strong public support and the tax holiday did at first also. He won the tax holiday issue by calling it what it was, a sham. I’d like to think that he’d do the same with FISA but not if that means he’ll lose in November.
81% oppose it.
We don’t even know how far the spying has gone, since Bush has blocked attempts to get to the bottom of it.
absolutely agree with you on this one.
that’s what makes obama’s flip flop on such core constitutional principles so inexplicable – well, unless i go to the dark side for my explanations. very, very disturbing. it’s not pleasant to have to overlook his recent changes wrt to his economic team, his foreign policy team, his support for barrow, etc – but i think it was, for me, doable. this, however is in a whole other league.
Have a link to that poll, por favor?
i didn’t defend him and i didn’t ask for proof. i asked for something more than assertion. that is all – i appreciate that you did include some reasons for your position in your comment at 13. thanks.
But I gotta say, Wexler is one of the few who speaks up, speaks out. If he thinks Obama can do some good, I kinda want to respect that. Hell, I don’t know who Obama is…..none of us do. But we cannot, cannot let McCain slip through. We know who he is. Scalia’s biggest advocate. Yikes!
Agreed. But I do know that I make extensive efforts to dig for facts about issues, I contact my reps and Senators, I watch congressional hearings. I pay close attention. That’s way more information than joe sixpack has.
Yikes! Indeed…
Not showing up on the floor to vote for FISA seems to be the rule for candidates. Well, except Dodd. Remember that New York Times ad, way back when (last winter seems so long ago)? It said something like: Obama and Clinton show up for your job, stop telcom immunity. Is Obama really not supporting the Feingold Dodd filibuster because he’s being a tepid candidate, or because he supports warrantless wiretapping and immunity for telcoms?
Already in the group. :) I like faxes better because they take up space in Congressional offices.
McCain has missed more time than Tim Johnson.
I wonder which advisor(s) Obama is listening to on the FISA issue?
I still am hoping that he will speak to the issue and at least give a decent explanation as to why he is supporting it. Maybe pigs fly to but after his leadership on Iran, Iran and energy, maybe he will say something.
Obama expects to win the Presidency, and he wants these powers. A President who inherits powers from his predecessor is more powerful than the predecessor who had to grapple with a compliant, meek Congress to obtain the powers.
Obama knows this about the Presidency: intact powers are hardly ever taken from a President. If these powers are intact upon his Inauguration, they are likely his, and the Presidency’s, forever.
And he likes that.
ES that’s a really good question. He should be listening and then making a decision that demonstrates he takes advice, considers alternatives and comes down on the side of the Constitution if the advice is bad.
Doesn’t seem to be the case. No telling how much this debate might change with a little… Leadership… is there?
Has anyone seen this today?
This sounded plausible to me: Jonathan Alter explains Obama’s position on FISA in interview with Randi Rhodes (du)
Thanks.. We need to know for a number of reasons.. It’s time to attack these
monsters advisors before they turn him into another giant triangle. (if it’s not to late)An absent Rethuglican from Congress is a blessing. But I know what you’re saying.
Newsweek guy? I dunno man, I lost faith in those writers.
Thanks, JoFish. Appreciate your perspective.
So one more time we are hearing, “Trust me.” He has an opportunity to show the “right stuff” here and now. We’re hungry, Barack, and the Constitution and the government protections are nearly gutted, and the incompetent inmates are running the asylum. Do not procrastinate … do not postpone. You don’t have to review this situation re FISA, though reviewing situations is, granted, important. But there are checks and balances. Courts will determine if the corporate telecom “patriots” did wrong. Let them. Let them have their days in court!!! There is a process in place. What is the prob?
Y’know, I blame Oprah. Did she vet him before she launched him as mightily as she did? I mean, she had Bush on her show in 2000 and he was so much more the type you’d invite to your barbecue than Gore… Gore handsome but a tad uptight on Oprah, but not, surprisingly, Mr. Bush …. people were pleasantly surprised and even charmed. God, the camera does love sociopathic types.
And that Oprah, when she likes you she’s behind ya. If you are her pal, well, even if you made a dud movie, she’ll plug it.. and her fans will go see it … and will pretend it’s good, or say, well, Oprah is loyal to her friends… to her fans maybe not as much as we hoped in this dud movie case. Anyway, Oprah, don’t let us down now. You launched something serious. I hope he’s got the “right stuff.”
And I blame John Edwards, because he could have kept running obviously. My first choice! He was looking to stand up. Couldn’t wait to stand up for principles. Now, he actually could have kept on running, even if he didn’t have the bucks … if that was his prob… he could have kept going another $22 million, because no one seems to care about someone doing that. Right?
Sigh.
Well, there are lots of ‘perks’ and ’spoils’ to be gained.
One of the most progressive aspects of an Obama presidency is that it will drag ‘Murkah into the 20th century. And everyone will realize that it is not just white males who will trample on the dreams and aspirations of ‘the people’. Anyone of any race,creed or religon (except for those who worship Allah and, of course atheists) and, soon, I am certain, of either gender will be in the running.
This passes for progress.
That said.
Obama will probably do less damage than McCain.
Weevil the people must, once again, thanks to so many things, seek the lesser weevil. I refuse to call it a ‘choice’ because we aren’t ‘there’ yet.
Disappointment I can live with. Massive destruction and a certain tilt of the court which will take generations to rectify, will be very hard to live with.
Disappointed we all may be.
But who, of any ‘age’ and active concern, may claim to be surprised.
Would we have been happier with Clinton?
Where has she been FISA-wise, Patriot Act-wise?
Even Edwards took a while to ’see the light’.
There are lies and then there are damned lies.
Where do the damned lie?
excellent question.
listen to the interview and you will see the point
On the other hand if Obama showed up and tried to lead the pack, wouldn’t it look bad? Is it possible his apologists are saying something like that?
link? I am not an Alter fan.
that is the only explanation i have.
and exactly why i am so disturbed. obama is not some idiot – he knows his constitution – so, i must conclude he knows exactly what he is doing. and that is not ok with me.
Obama is now the defacto “leader of the pack”. His word could change the trajectory of any legislation in the Senate especially one that is Democratically initiated.
So where is that leadership?
Ding!
What if lobbyists are the deciding factor here and not the Democratic nominee? Wouldn’t that be a scary thought too?
I guess my point is not to make this FISA-centric, but how do we know that in 2009 he’ll give a rats ass about leading? He’ll be working on relection in 2012 and all the rest of any agenda not urgently biting him in the ass will be shoved off to some “Blue Ribbon Commission”.
I am already depressed.
Okay, so does anybody know when Congress authorized that $400 mil in Seymour Hirsh’s article for covert ops in Iran?!?
G*d/dess I really hate these goddamn pundits with their interpolations and prognostications and the sniffy innishness. Its what makes the KO show so unbearable when it might have been the only news show I could watch.
Well said.
But this is why the FISA fiasco is so important… it provides a very American issue.. great plae for Obama to lead and declare this issue to be above partisanship. /snerk
And as you mentioned in your post, the Supremes. if one cannot uphold their oath on this constitutional issue… why should we expect reasonable nominees from him later?
I think the article said that it was approved by the group of 8 which includes Pelosi. It wasn’t clear that the money was actually approved to send ops into Iran but that’s almost irrelevant. Give Bush an inch and he takes a mile. That’s what Bob Barr said today.
Same here. I wish I could afford tomatoes so I could throw rotten ones at the TV when Jonathon Alter and others of his ilk come on KO.
Splat!
Cryin over spilt milk. The campaign Obama ran was about “Mythical Change”. Bob Wexler hopes he buys into this agenda that Bob Fertik posted below. Obama is playing the political climate staying with the popular issues in Congress not the people. So far NO ONE has paid the price for protecting the Bushco shit. We have obfuscating wienie butts for representatives in congress. They all take it in the rear and we pay the price in tqxes lost services and rights. They are a bunch of yellow sellouts. I want a new deal. a totally new congress. Can we recall them all?
Jo Fish, great post.
I hope Barry The Privacy Slayer hears your call for leadership in defeating the FISA amnesty: I’d love to see him show he cares about as much about leading to defend the Consitution as he does about leading the vote counts.
The mood swings today at the Lake are giving me whiplash.
Barry voted to for cloture on both of Bush’s picks for the Supremes. Guess Chief Justice Roberts was OK with the Con Law lecturer.
Quit watching TV..it is their propaganda tool. You pay to watch those fucked up adds to. If they carried European mews it might be worth the time, the anger/upset and the bucks. Read and get solid information.
“voted for cloture”
preview is my friedn…..
It was another sock in the gut when Obama took that stance. And it’s being a drag on MY 4th of July!
Remember LAST 4th of July? Simpleton McLawless just commuted Libby’s sentence. I was bummed.
And the bigger time (there were other littles) before that, talking about gut punches, was when the 110th Congress gave said codpiece the Iraq war funding, thank you nance!
This is seeming to me to be a hopeless endeavor to get ANY elected official with the power to do so, to STAND for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I’m so on the verge of throwing in the towel, and seriously following thru with my Plan B…..Find another country. maybe it won’t be as glorious as America was my whole life, pre Bu$h, but at least I’ll know what I’m walking into, and I won’t be living in what looks to me like the last days of Rome, watching my beloved country and her principles being desecrated and spat upon to point of swirling down the bowl!
*sigh*
A proffessor of constitutional law should provide us with a written opinion on why security trumps the Constitution. This is just the start of removing our rights if it works the door is open for getting rid of more inconvenient rights…then comes the shock doctrine of authoritarianism replacing the rule of law. Ask Argentines, Chileans and central Americans. These Neocns like Addington have nothing but disdain for democracy, It is about corporate rule and Isreal.
This concerns me. I KNEW what Clinton would do. I never trusted her and her campaign not only drove that fear home, but astounded me in how low and conniving and twisted it became, how it evolved into something entirely different than when she entered the race.
I knew Obama would disappoint, I just never anticipated he’d stand down in THIS fight, such an obvious and blatant spotlight issue of the whole last 8 years.
Well said, indeed, DWBartoo!
I’m really ready to throw in the towel here, and Obi gets not another dime unless he does the right thing, here and now, on THIS issue. And if he doesn’t, he’s no better than Clinton, so what’s the use?
Why? Why? Why? Pelosi et al know already give that prick and inch and he’ll run with it. I am very, very upset. Does anyone know the date of this funding? This is a nightmare. I wish it would end.
Exactly!
Oh well. Hey, Selise Masterpiece theater is on tonight!
Months after readng The Shock Doctrine.. it sure puts a smile on my face when fiery dogs, like you, read it and have the same reaction so many of us did when it first came out.
Jo Fish, I commend you for a very well said and well thought out post. You put your finger on the problem quite well.
I wrote this downstairs and it was EPUd, but it sure fits here. It was in response to Juslin who said:
appears that some pups are thinking of voting for mcinsane – OMG!!!
Rest assured, Juslin, I won’t vote against Obama. I just might not vote for him. The way I look at it is this: Obama is trying very hard to smack us, his base, in the face and deny that he needs us. Word on the streets is that he’s doing it to appease some freshman Blue Dogs that are afraid they might not be able to ride his coat tails back to the House if he insists on bucking the President on FISA. We’re not much happy with these Blue Dogs anyway(although this is not the first time he’s shown support for a Blue Dog over a Progressive,) so I don’t feel I’m the one that’s betraying anything here. He’s applying to me for a vote and a job; not the other way around, remember? We’ve covered that before.
Please elaborate….
From Hersh’s 7 July article in the New Yorker.
Once the Gang of 8 agrees to the Finding, the military shifts the money from within the Pentagon’s budget. No new monies are appropriated because that would require Congressional approval.
For some reason, I expect the response to President Obama wiretapping US citizens to be somewhat different than it has been to date. Just a little prediction.
Just meant that Ian had the most beautiful post this morning and everyone was relaxed and easy and now everyone’s in a bad mood again.
You think folks will accept the Big O more as the Big Brotha?
Yuppy is Yuppy…regardless of race.
Just wondering what you meant.
Funny, when people here agree with a comment, they rarely ask for a link.
It’s usually when they question or disagree that they say Link?
I’m just curious about some of the comments here, background etc.
Not me. I’m still dreaming about a hooch in the bush.
‘Kay…haven’t been here all day. It doesn’t take much for people to get a bit tweaked these days.
(thanks for responding…so many times I get crickets….:))
You’ve seen the Seymour Hersh article right? With what right does Congress let Chimpy run amuck in a sovereign country?
Will you accept visitors from time to time? I think I need a rest.
Pardon my naivete…translation? Sorry for not being hip.
Be sure to read Ian’s post and the comments. It was one of the best times I remember here at the Lake.
Actually, I maintain that this law would be unconstitutional from the get go. It still seems to me that you need to actually do a Constitutional amendment to rescind another amendment and then that has to be ratified by 2/3rds of the States. Otherwise, it’s just another unconstitutional law passed by Congress in error. Won’t be the first; won’t be the last. I don’t think it’d pass the smell test in a court, especially one including any judges Obama appoints, unless his appointees are worse than I would think. Then again, who the hell knows about him. If you can’t trust a Constitution law lecturer to know how to uphold the Constitution, I don’t know who to trust.
All I can say is remember Stare decisis, my Friend! They both lied out of their asses! We shouldn’t be picking on those who took them at their lying word, under oath (I might add), we should be taking these liars to task! With a new Administration, hopefully friendlier to our causes, we should be investigating all possible remedial actions against these people who have fraudulently gained the highest Judicial offices in the Land! Just MHO, of course.
No right at all but we are not going to help the situation by giving ourselves ulcers and I’m not kidding about that. I worry when people get too worked up – about their health, I mean.
I speculate and have no link to support my prediction.
I think the right, the media, and every crazy militiaman from sea to shining sea will scream bloody constitution murder if Obama wiretaps like Bush has.
i’m not getting what’s going on here….. there’s no “perfect” candidate – is the consensus that mcinsane will be better on fisa? it’s interesting the turn that this campaign is taking….
This morning Ian had a post up about forests and such. I commented on the beauty of the jungles in Viet Nam and Cambodia and the many times I had dreamed of just wandering off into the bush (jungle) and building a little hooch (dwelling) and living happily ever after.
You know what they say:
Neurotics build castles in the sky and schizophrenics live in them.
T’will do. Thanks.
Impeach liars.
Thanks for the laugh.
Call me on anything at anytime! I usually provide a link, if I don’t-I have one and will be more than happy to supply it. It is always proper to ask for supporting documentation, IMO. Hell, ask for, you are well with within your rights to demand it! Unsupported allegations are bullshit and should be treated as exactly that, Friend Demi!
Are you being deliberately dense? No one is saying that McCain would be better on FISA, we’re saying that Obama needs to walk the walk of being a leader, not get blown by any prevailing wind his advisors (or whoever) think he should follow on this or any other issue.
Is a large constituency a requirement for doing the right thing? On FISA or any other issue?
I am so tired of people who are ticked off because the candidate of their party isn’t perfect.
No politician is perfect, and all of them got into it through ego and a desire for more power than they have as individuals. This is what they are: you can’t change it, but you can work with it. (The lobbyists and the GOoPers may be better at it than we are, but it shouldn’t be a cause for panic.)
Do you really want McCain and four more years of government for the wealthy corp-rats, by the wealthy corp-rats, and crumbs for the rest of us? Then just keep going the way you’re going now.
I’m going to hold my nose and vote for Obama, because the alternative is worse. Third party is not an option.
But if I ever get there you’re more than welcome.
Which brings to mind a question: Can Supreme Court Justices be impeached? Censured? Hmmm. Just wonderin’. I already know there’s like, no possibility of that ever happening.
I don’t think it’s that people want to vote for McCain. It;s more that people want to hold Obama accountable for his waffle-action. Having endured 8 years of perverse lying and deceiving and cheating and so forth, some of us were really hopeful that an honest person would step up. Obama flipped rather early, in my opinion. And the question is WHY? Is he spineless? Is he being bought? What’s his damned problem, you know?
If you build on a beach, can I visit? I’ll bring some o’ those cute lil ubrellas for drinks.
I hope you’re correct. To whom much is given, much is expected. I’ve already seen a lot of disappointment here for the man they thought walks on water.
I don’t think I’ve ever asked for a link. As in, oh yeah, prove it.
I think speculation here is just fine. That, and opinions. As in It’s been my experience…etc.
I gotta say that I don’t actually think people expected a walk-on-water candidate. I think many of us just wanted an honest candidate. Is that too much to ask?
Sooner or later, they would come for you. Invariably it would end badly, depending on how determined you were to stay. Best case you would be a traumatized veteran and be carted off to a psychiatric ward somewhere. Most VA Districts have just as many Psych beds as Acute care beds!
I’ve seen it happen to people in too many places. No where is safe anymore. You ever watch this one? Ioty relates to what I am talking about, even though it was made a generation or two ago.
You can think anything you like and ask anything you like. Fine by me.
Supreme Court Justices can be impeached, it is th eonly way they can be removed other than resignation.
Agreed.
How hard is it, really, to just stand for something? I just wanted to vote for someone who would say, “This is what I believe — if you don’t like it, vote for someone else.” THAT’s my candidate. It’s also why I loved watching Kucinich. He knew he was “too short, too ‘different’, too geeky, too not-the-American-dream”, and so forth (and which one of you readers would have been all those things?) — but he stood up and gave us his best. It grieves me, honestly, that I live in a country that does not respect such, well, nobility. Sigh.
i thought i was making mysaelf clear… i DON’T think i’m dense by NO stretch of the imagination…. and i understood all that you wrote and the some…..
No reason to go there with me.
Sorry, no beach huts. Just wanna find a clearing deep in the bush, throw up a little hooch, plant some crops and commune with the creatures of the bush.
?
At the rate we’re going, we’ll all be living in hooches. I’ll grow tomatoes. Will you grow some lettuce? Who’s got the corn?
i kinda think he’s in the grip of too many advisors with their own particular agenda… i for one would like for him to articulate his own message and let the voters decide if we support him…
I guess the thing that prompts me to realize that it could be a lot worse is the news about Mugabe and the elections. How would we like to live where people are forced to vote for a particular candidate and tortured or killed if they don’t. Where an opposition candidate who probably won the election outright is forced to take refuge in a foreign embassy and withdraw from the runoff.
As bad as Bushco is, and as much as I cannot stand Obama’s betrayal of the 4th amendment, we could be in Mugabe land.
Thanks for the translation. Hooch means something else too, so I was confused.
:)
I figure sooner or later they’re gonna come for me here. And not to put me away in one those VA psych wards, where I worked for 16 years. Actually, I doubt anyone would care if there was some old vet living off in the bush somewhere. Has the makings of village myths and such.
I didn’t mean that to sound like it was addressed to you specifically, so please don’t take offense. I know how annoying unfounded assertions can be. I was agreeing with you in my own fashion.
lol. thanks!
Okay. I guess I misconstrued the In Response to part. But, yeah, cool.
I getcha.
Prolly gonna have to be tubers of some sort. Can’t grow corn in Florida. Put in some pole beans, various squash, leafy lettuce, other greens. Too bad I can’t turn my part of my yard into a rice paddy. But we could trade with tribes further north for corn.
edit –
mypart of my yardPreview is mah fren
;o)!
Emptywheel is upstairs.
An honest candidate? Very few of them in politics and the ones who are get chewed up rather quickly. Dean was one and the “scream” took him down. Edwards had the potential in his second life and he was taken down by a hair cut.
The reality is that the corporations decide who the candidates will be. No one gets to the top of the ladder without their stamp of approval. If they don’t like you they have their owned and operated media take you down. So there should be no surprises that those who are on the top of the heap were abetted by the corpo powers that be. ATT, Verizon, Comcast, etc. are pretty powerful in that world. They don’t need to put a horse’s head on the bed to get their message across to the candidates.
Obama has been bought and paid for. OR, he’s covering Nancy’s and Steny’s and Jane Harmon’s and Jello Jay’s asses. He needs them and they know it.
We, the people are not a part of the calculation. We never were.
I’m going to need to find a gas mask to wear into the polls in November.
Click on Emptywheel” above and read Marcy’s two excellent deconstructions of the Seymour Hersh article.
Should answer most of your questions and give you an education on the matter as well.
Siun is upstairs too.
So well said, RevDeb!
you will never effect any change if you hold your nose and vote for them anyway. What makes people think that this is the only thing obi one will sell his soul for, he is surrounded by people like Rham Emmanuel and Nelson Rockefeller and Nancy pelosi and a thousand other low lifes waiting to give him money for favors. Who says his supreme court appointees will be better than we got from the Democrats and this administration????????????
THAT is something that must be changed. I don’t think phone calls and faxes will do it.
Education, yes.
Glen Greenwald has a reply to Alter and Olbermann on Salon. Really I can accept the fact that Obama is triangulating, because there’s really no choice but four more years of ChimpCo/McCain. I can’t accept the waltzing of snooty pundits and hosts that were so “firm” on warrantless wiretapping a year ago.
Alter, Olbaermann, what a bunch of fatuous sh*ts.