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	<title>Comments on: Why The West Can&#8217;t Topple Burma&#8217;s Junta</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/</link>
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		<title>By: Graeme</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1519086</link>
		<dc:creator>Graeme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 03:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1519086</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks for bringing this issue to light.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A few points come to mind:&lt;br /&gt;
•For many decades now Thailand has been dealing with unstable states (Cambodia and Burma) on one or the other of its borders.  While one would think the Thai government would have a stake in improving the stability of those states to the point where refugee camps become unnecessary, it is also true that both of these unstable states are providing cheap labour in Thailand&lt;br /&gt;
•the pipeline to Thailand is certainly a vulnerable point of trade.&lt;br /&gt;
•there is concern about what amounts to Balkanization with the fall of the generals.  Could Aung Sun Suu Kyi hold it together?  There are many who have their doubts. In either case, it seems to me, the Chinese win.  They are winning with resource extraction now under the generals (as is Thailand) and they would certainly win if the Burmese state did not hold together after the fall of the generals.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In all of this, one thing is historically certain - the generals will fall.  Along with everybody but the generals themselves, we would much prefer that to be sooner rather than later.  One of the things many of the exiled Burmese have already been doing is preparing for that moment with the development of much-needed support and transition policy.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for bringing this issue to light.  </p>
<p>A few points come to mind:<br />
•For many decades now Thailand has been dealing with unstable states (Cambodia and Burma) on one or the other of its borders.  While one would think the Thai government would have a stake in improving the stability of those states to the point where refugee camps become unnecessary, it is also true that both of these unstable states are providing cheap labour in Thailand<br />
•the pipeline to Thailand is certainly a vulnerable point of trade.<br />
•there is concern about what amounts to Balkanization with the fall of the generals.  Could Aung Sun Suu Kyi hold it together?  There are many who have their doubts. In either case, it seems to me, the Chinese win.  They are winning with resource extraction now under the generals (as is Thailand) and they would certainly win if the Burmese state did not hold together after the fall of the generals.</p>
<p>In all of this, one thing is historically certain &#8211; the generals will fall.  Along with everybody but the generals themselves, we would much prefer that to be sooner rather than later.  One of the things many of the exiled Burmese have already been doing is preparing for that moment with the development of much-needed support and transition policy.</p>
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		<title>By: ubetchaiam</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518658</link>
		<dc:creator>ubetchaiam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518658</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks Ian for this post; you nailed it when you wrote “When we fail to deal with our own problems we become incapable of helping others with theirs.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course, there will be those that shout ‘protectionism’ at such a thought but the saying ‘lead by example’ still holds.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ian for this post; you nailed it when you wrote “When we fail to deal with our own problems we become incapable of helping others with theirs.”</p>
<p>Of course, there will be those that shout ‘protectionism’ at such a thought but the saying ‘lead by example’ still holds.</p>
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		<title>By: libbyliberal</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518638</link>
		<dc:creator>libbyliberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 23:23:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518638</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Agree… “curse: was on point.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You write of the plutocracy. I am eager to read Barbara Ehrenreich’s book, This Land is Their Land…:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;When I was a child, I sang “America the Beautiful” and meant it. I was born in the Rocky Mountains and raised, at various times, on the coasts. The Big Sky, the rolling surf, the jagged, snow-capped, mountains: All this seemed to be my birthright. But now I flinch when I hear Woody Guthrie’s line, “This land belongs to you and me.” Somehow, I don’t think it was meant to be sung by a chorus of hedge fund operators.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree… “curse: was on point.</p>
<p>You write of the plutocracy. I am eager to read Barbara Ehrenreich’s book, This Land is Their Land…:</p>
<blockquote><p>When I was a child, I sang “America the Beautiful” and meant it. I was born in the Rocky Mountains and raised, at various times, on the coasts. The Big Sky, the rolling surf, the jagged, snow-capped, mountains: All this seemed to be my birthright. But now I flinch when I hear Woody Guthrie’s line, “This land belongs to you and me.” Somehow, I don’t think it was meant to be sung by a chorus of hedge fund operators.</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: DWBartoo</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518590</link>
		<dc:creator>DWBartoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518590</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;An excellent anaylsis, on numerous levels, Al. And ‘of curse’ encapsulates so much of all the ‘truths’ in your anaylsis as to become almost a short-hand  description of the human ‘predicament’ you’ve so well delineated …&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An excellent anaylsis, on numerous levels, Al. And ‘of curse’ encapsulates so much of all the ‘truths’ in your anaylsis as to become almost a short-hand  description of the human ‘predicament’ you’ve so well delineated …</p>
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		<title>By: Albatross</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518555</link>
		<dc:creator>Albatross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518555</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hmmm.. I used the phrase “instead of curse” rather than “instead of course.”  However subconsciously I did it, I actually prefer the result.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.. I used the phrase “instead of curse” rather than “instead of course.”  However subconsciously I did it, I actually prefer the result.</p>
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		<title>By: Albatross</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518554</link>
		<dc:creator>Albatross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518554</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Brilliant as always.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There’s another way for Burma to change, too: the Burmese people rise up and overthrow their generals, swarming in a bloody, hopeless tide over the razor-topped walls of their compounds and hacking them limb from limb with machetes.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is a non-optimal outcome (a technical term for a violent human tragedy).  What you end up with then is an efficient, detached gang of thugs being replaced with violent ideologically-driven thugs. These thugs either morph into the prior regime and become effficient, or the inefficiencies allow for a generation to grow up under a crumbling governmental machine, and be replaced by pragmatists.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Either way you’re looking at a bloodbath, followed by another dictatorship (possibly bloodier), followed by socioeconomic collapse, and a generation passing before there’s a chance of establishing a government that is something other than a kleptocracy.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If the U.S. had an actual foreign policy, we could help lead places like Burma out of the darkness, although like South Africa they have to be ready to do so.  Instead of curse we have a corporate kleptocracy trying to build an oligarchy with the help of a wholly-owned media propaganda machine.  Basically the media is showing us a fictional tale of democracy while (not very far) behind the scenes the wealthy and powerful are securing a permanent hold on power.  Throw in a corporatized, for-profit prison system (yes, the profit motive applied to jailing your neighbor), a corporatized for-profit military system (the profit motive applied to foreign policy), and the burgeoning technology of a ubiquitous police state, and Burma’s generals look like pikers…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant as always.</p>
<p>There’s another way for Burma to change, too: the Burmese people rise up and overthrow their generals, swarming in a bloody, hopeless tide over the razor-topped walls of their compounds and hacking them limb from limb with machetes.</p>
<p>This is a non-optimal outcome (a technical term for a violent human tragedy).  What you end up with then is an efficient, detached gang of thugs being replaced with violent ideologically-driven thugs. These thugs either morph into the prior regime and become effficient, or the inefficiencies allow for a generation to grow up under a crumbling governmental machine, and be replaced by pragmatists.</p>
<p>Either way you’re looking at a bloodbath, followed by another dictatorship (possibly bloodier), followed by socioeconomic collapse, and a generation passing before there’s a chance of establishing a government that is something other than a kleptocracy.</p>
<p>If the U.S. had an actual foreign policy, we could help lead places like Burma out of the darkness, although like South Africa they have to be ready to do so.  Instead of curse we have a corporate kleptocracy trying to build an oligarchy with the help of a wholly-owned media propaganda machine.  Basically the media is showing us a fictional tale of democracy while (not very far) behind the scenes the wealthy and powerful are securing a permanent hold on power.  Throw in a corporatized, for-profit prison system (yes, the profit motive applied to jailing your neighbor), a corporatized for-profit military system (the profit motive applied to foreign policy), and the burgeoning technology of a ubiquitous police state, and Burma’s generals look like pikers…</p>
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		<title>By: GordonM</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518512</link>
		<dc:creator>GordonM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518512</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Awesome post, Ian.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome post, Ian.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Welsh</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518501</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Welsh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518501</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I wouldn’t be surprised about India.  For all that India’s a democracy, it’s vastly corrupt and entire provinces are virtually in revolt at any given time.  It’s something you don’t hear much about.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn’t be surprised about India.  For all that India’s a democracy, it’s vastly corrupt and entire provinces are virtually in revolt at any given time.  It’s something you don’t hear much about.</p>
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		<title>By: libbyliberal</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518488</link>
		<dc:creator>libbyliberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;This is another version of a gated community, isn’t it?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;the prosperity of western elites from their own population’s prosperity, while larval compared to Burma is based on the same impulse and the same raw calculus of benefit and power.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;China won’t help with Darfur either.  China gets stronger.  China playing counterpoint (with Iran) to U.S. in terms of Israel coming up.  What will happen then?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If regimes weren’t so paranoid about U.S. imperialism, I wonder if the helicopters would have been more welcome with aid.  Clearly, the leaders consider lives of their people expendable. Yeah, to protect their own necks. Don’t do the right thing.  (Kinda like Congress and FISA, too?)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I heard about the extensive use of torture in India now, too.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is another version of a gated community, isn’t it?  </p>
<blockquote><p>the prosperity of western elites from their own population’s prosperity, while larval compared to Burma is based on the same impulse and the same raw calculus of benefit and power.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>China won’t help with Darfur either.  China gets stronger.  China playing counterpoint (with Iran) to U.S. in terms of Israel coming up.  What will happen then?</p>
<p>If regimes weren’t so paranoid about U.S. imperialism, I wonder if the helicopters would have been more welcome with aid.  Clearly, the leaders consider lives of their people expendable. Yeah, to protect their own necks. Don’t do the right thing.  (Kinda like Congress and FISA, too?)</p>
<p>I heard about the extensive use of torture in India now, too.</p>
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		<title>By: libbyliberal</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518473</link>
		<dc:creator>libbyliberal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:16:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/06/28/the-burma-blues/#comment-1518473</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;ooops… meant to use quotes….sorry&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ooops… meant to use quotes….sorry</p>
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