When Obama had the chance to stop this bill, he didn’t. There’s no “right thing” on this issue after that. You wrote something similar about Pat Leahy not too long ago, Jane. What’s different now?

Needless to say Alter is an idiot.

That’s the biggest problem here.

Just watched KO, and he’s stem-winding for a big “Special Comment” on this on Monday. I hope that Jonathan Turley gives him a call.

Keith has dug himself in a hole on this issue, and he’s probably too stubborn to get out. If you read Greenwald & KO’s Kos diary, KO admits he doesn’t know who Glenn is, and that he hasn’t read the bill.

KO is placing his whole position on this on his understanding of what he thinks John Dean said.

Jane, is there any way, in your talking to John Dean, that you can get him to call KO and get him to back off on this ridiculous pissing match? I think too, if KO would talk to Turley [actually, listen to Turley], he might get an understanding of

**why Obama is on the wrong side of this issue;

**why Glenn is correct in pointing this out;

**why John Dean’s supposed “interpretation” is not a reason for holding back criticism of Obama;

**why the “just give Obama a pass on this; he needs to win” strategy is not a good one.

For the more sophisicated among them, someone might also point out how Steny, Reid & Pelosi have actually boxed Obama into a very bad corner here: because he’s come out in favor of FISA, it makes it harder for other Dems to oppose it, because they’ll look like they’re not backing the Presumed Nominee. Steny Hoyer really deserves a Worst Person in the World award for this.

I’m just hoping there can be a little behind-the-scens negotiation before KO’s Special Comment on Monday.

Stop by and tell the Senator that you’ll be voting for him in November and hoping that in the meantime, he does the right thing.

this strikes me as capitulation on our part – mary describes why over at emptywheel:

What they do is to take the base for granted and act to pick up those who are not in the base. So if you want to have any negotiating power, you have to be something other than the base. You have to be the votes that they have to work to capture, not the givens. And that means being willing to not be captured if they aren’t going to come through, IMO. Which means you have to be committed to the long haul, not the short run

This moderation stupidity is going to lose us the election again! Spinelessness is unbecoming a leader. Cravenly flip flopping is disgusting. Stand for something and they will come. Cravenly give in to law breaking telecoms and people might just stay home on election day.

Keep in mind Red Louisiana with dumb ass governor Bobby Jindal voted with the presidential winner….well for a long time, since before Clinton. So chances are if Obama loses Louisiana he will lose the presidency too.

I also would not put it past the Rethugs to run an ad on this flip flop or have one of their 527s do it. Even though it is their dying wish to have this FISA legislation, don’t think they won’t use it against you.

Stop by and tell the Senator that you’ll be voting for him in November

I can’t tell him that because I don’t know if I want to yet. It really makes no difference because my vote doesn’t count anyway. The man I wanted is no longer running. I may even have to write him in.

Dennis was the progressive many of us have wanted for some time: a lonely voice crying in the desert, so to speak; but few gave heed.

I definitely wouldn’t vote for anyone resembling a Republican, that’s for sure; hence the reason I wouldn’t have been able to vote for Hillary.

I applaud Keith and Glenn for their efforts. I don’t always agree but they try to do their homework and I think they’re men enough to admit when they’ve made their mistakes.

The news these days has got me so bummed, I don’t even like reading the blogs much. Since I don’t watch much television (no satelite/cable here so I have ABC and PBS) and I’ve been so disheartened by the behavior of our elected leaders (from local to national), that I don’t hold much faith at all in the human animal, period.

As Gordon Lightfoot would say, “Fella’s, it’s been good to know ya”. We’re all in for a long haul. Let’s just hope (ah, eternal hope) that somehow we can make an effort to be better people. It takes effort to do (and be) good; it’s simple to do evil.

It’s been fun…

Believe it or not – Glenn’s view is also Obama’s view

For those Obama supporters who are knocking Glenn and those of us who share Glenn’s view about challenging your leaders (even Obama) I think you would do well to remember this quote from Obama, himself.

I’m asking you to believe – not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington…I’m asking you to believe in YOURS…Barack Obama

Glenn and those of us who support his view are doing exactly what Obama advocates. We aren’t waiting for Obama to change things all on his own. We are speaking up and letting Obama know that we want that change and we’re willing to fight for it and that if he’s willing to lead on this issue we have his back.

You can’t battle powerful interests without having the voice of the people to serve as your armor and your sword. By showing Obama that we are willing to stand toe to toe with him in this fight we provide the weapons that he needs in his arsenal to fight this epic battle against the powerful moneyed interests who want the FISA bill passed.

When we retreat and refuse to stand up for our own rights we dessert him and ourselves by not providing him with the collective voices of the people that are so necessary for him to be able to fight for us. We have a champion but we have to be willing to be his armor and sword if we hope to change this country.

By Patty from Louisville, KY Jun 27th 2008 at 5:34 pm EDT

Dear Senator Obama,

You asked us to believe in your ability to bring about real change in Washington. And millions of us did by voting for you to be our nominee, our champion. You also reminded us to believe in OUR ability to bring about change in Washington. So it’s in the spirit of your own words that I call upon you to not only vote against the FISA “compromise” bill but help lead the charge to defeat this draconian bill that drastically alters our 4th amendment rights, immunizes the telecoms for their lawless behavior and shuts the door on ever finding out the details about the Bush administration’s illegal spying.

You also talked about the audacity of hope. Well millions of us have the audacity to hope that you will reject the ways of Washington and shut down this cynical attempt to get around the rule of law. You must rise to the challenge in this historical battle that pits the powerful interests against the rights of the people. We know you can’t do it alone which is why we are here to support you and act as your armor in this epic fight. Together we can change Washington.

Thank you.

The issue of the phone companies, per se, is not one that overrides the security interest of the American people. I do want accountability and making sure that, as I’ve said before, somebody’s watching the watchers. That you don’t have an administration that feels it can make its own determinations about when warrantless wiretaps are applicable without going through a FISA court; can we get to the bottom of what’s being taking place; and, most importantly, do we have safeguards going in place going into the future, so that American civil liberties are not being violated?

The problem is that this bill is aimed at getting rid of everything about which Obama says, “I do want …”:
– To get accountability, you have to hold people accountable rather than immunize them.
– To force the administration to go through FISA court, you leave FISA in place rather than legalizing the circumvention of FISA courts.
– To get to the bottom of what’s been taking place, you let the discovery processes of the current lawsuits run their course rather than support a law that forces the judges to dismiss those suits.
– To keep safeguards in place you don’t support legislation to remove them.

And, here’s Jonathan Alter on CountDown on Wed evening:

And I actually think one of the big points, Keith, that hasn’t been made about this bill is that currently, as of last August, since last August, we’ve been operating in an unconstitutional environment, clear violation of the Fourth Amendment.

So, there was tremendous urgency to get the FISA court back into the game. And does this bill do it imperfectly? Yes. But it does do it and it restores the Constitution, which is a point that’s not getting made very much.

I’m sorry, but the only way to restore the Constitution is force the government to obey it or to ammend it. This bill does neither. In fact, it attempts to legalize what has been going on since August.

Wow. I’m really surprised to see that even on a very friendly site for Obama like HuffPo that the vote is split between Greenwald and keith. This gives me great hope. I’m very happy to see so many Obama supporters vote for Greenwald because it means you took Obama’s words to heart when he said:

I’m asking you to believe – not just in my ability to bring about real change in Washington…I’m asking you to believe in YOURS….

Barack Obama

Those of you who voted with Greenwald are demonstrating that you believe in your own power to bring about change in Washington and that you are not just going to sit back and let your leaders do it for you. Congratulations to all of you! Those of you who voted for Keith on this are unfortunately still stuck in the old mindset that says you have to follow your leader no matter what. Obama doesn’t believe that so why do you?