There's quite a flame war going on between Glenn Greenwald and Keith Olbermann over Obama's support for the FISA bill. Glenn criticized Olbermann for making a fierce anti-telecom immunity statement only a short time ago, then turning around and praising the new bill.
Olbermann goes on Daily Kos and defends himself by quoting John Dean:
John said his reading of the revised FISA statute suggested it was so poorly constructed (or maybe so sublimely constructed) that it clearly did not preclude future criminal prosecution of the telecoms - it only stopped civil suits.
I have repeated his observation each night since. Maybe I didn't sell my conviction of its conclusiveness. I think John Dean is worth 25 Glenn Greenwalds (maybe 26 Keith Olbermanns).
But I contacted John Dean, and I don't think he's saying what Olbermann thinks he's saying:
I said that when I read the bill, and talked to the folks at the ACLU who had been following it, that it was not clear. I raised it when appearing on Countdown with the hope that someone might figure it out. But that is the nature of this badly drafted bill that it is not clear what it does and does not do, and the drafters are not saying.
But even if the bill is unclear there is no question the Bush Administration is not going to do anything to the telecoms, so the question is whether a future DOJ could -- and here there is case law protecting the telecoms. But there may be language buried in the bill that protects them as well but it can only be found by reading the bill with a half dozen other laws which I have not yet done.
I made no declarative statements rather I only raised questions that jumped at me when reading the 114 page monster.
[T]o give Obama a pass on his support for such a heinous bill -- one which Dean himself describes as a grave assault on the Constitution -- based on this imagined secret plan for the Good that Obama is harboring is to illustrate exactly the sort of blind faith in political leaders that is so dangerous. That's been the Right's mentality to excuse every last thing Bush does....No political leader deserves that sort of blind faith -- not Bush and not Obama. That's how a small child thinks about his Daddy, not how a citizen should think about a political leader.
It's also interesting to note that the tools created to help organize Obama supporters against his opponents are now being used to organize themselves to communicate with him. There's a new group on "MyBarackObama.com" called "Senator Obama -- Please Vote Against FISA."
Stop by and tell the Senator that you'll be voting for him in November and hoping that in the meantime, he does the right thing.
Login Here
Share This
Spotlight
Hi Jane! So, what’s with the hair?;-)
Thanks for clarifying Jane.
hey. great job w/ barr. i said the orther day, q few weeksa ago I would have imagined you two quite te odd couple. disappointed in BO as is everyone. gotta call sen. spaceman who is probably worthless.
I might be willing to sign up with that group. TPM say’s it’s very fast-growing, so I guess a lot of people are unhappy but willing to stay with him.
We shouldn’t have to have this sort of organization - to tell the presumed candidate that it’s going off on the wrong track. It sounds like he’s getting a lot of advice from the DLC/DCCC/DSCC with their ‘you have to appeal to the moderate Republicans’ (all three of them?) mindset, which has screwed us over and won so many elections in the last generation or so.
I get tired of the people who keep saying that we need to be more like the GOoPers, with strong party discipline, kicking people out who won’t stick to the party line. They seem to be not seeing where that leads, with the prime example right in front of their eyes. The Democrats could use a little more party discipline, true (JoeL and the Blue Dogs come to mind), but do we really want to be like the Rs?
Thanks for checking this out, Jane!
Dean seems to be walking back a bit from what he was saying on Countdown.
you’re right. why be like them. their campaign seems pretyty fucked up at present. but it’s VERY early and no telling what’ll happen as they get more desparate. well, i think we know what’ll happen……………..
Your closing is particularly good.
Obama’s stand on this critical issue in no way diminishes my support.
There are too many other critical issues: the war, the SCOTUS, etc.
Obama is engaging in a particular political calculus, which I think may be based on a faulty premise (or two).
He needs our help here.
I just want to thank everyone… Keith, Glenn, John and Jane, among others. This is an excellent example of the new “open” media.
I wouldn’t mind at all if we had more unabashed liberals like the late Metzenbaum of Ohio, and a real arm-twister like LBJ would be great.
Obama is running for president. Most americans would rather be safe than free- and he is speaking accordingly. No great mystery I am afraid.
hey firedogs,
from a purely political theater standpoint - why does he support the Bill ?
everyone knows it’s going to pass. he had nothing to lose in supporting it - he’s already proven himself more than able to pushback on the terra meme
so why did he do it ? is he using our disappointment to show everyone else he’s not with the libruls, are we his bloody shirt?
yeah. won’ twa;k away from te guy over something like this. his vote won’t change anything and he’ll get trashed by them for it.
meant “walk away”
In the OJ trial the criminal case went nowhere but the family won in a civil suit because the rules for getting a conviction are easier. By knocking out the civil suits then you make finding Bush guilty of anything harder.
Also who cares about the telecoms I see us sueing the telecoms as a means to force them to talk about everything Bush forced them to do.
Rather than appear anti business when we might not have a reason to lets put the focus on Bush.
I may be the only commenter at this site who never watched Keith Olbermann but I have to say we in the left blogosphere tend to look for heroes. And we are mightily disappointed when those we lionize do not meet our expectations.
We need to apply the same critical processes on figures on the left that we do on the right. Kneejerk supporters whether they supported Clinton or, in the case of Olbermann and Huffington, Obama lessen their own credibility because they do not apply the same standards to their own candidate that they apply to others.
Still thinking about spending my stimulus check on the ACLU.
Thanks for the link on the Obama group — just joined.
There’s a vote over at HuffPo on who’s right? KO or GG. I voted for GG and then saw that it was KO 49% to GG 44% at that moment in time. I think the rift is about whether or not KO is really being objective about Obama.
I thought the same thing.
Ain’t that the truth.
All that said, Obama is a much better leader than McCain by a long shot. But no leader can please everyone all the time.
It does take a pro to piss everyone off all the time, though. Bush will go down in history for that!
If you’d like to vote, you can jump over here at HuffPo, (but do come back!)
It’s a false choice. The mystery to me is why you repeat it as credible. Liberty secured, is security. Destroying liberty leaves no security.
Great Minds do think alike:)
I think his last
Special Commentrant about Senator Clinton took care of that problem with most of da hippies - the clear thinking ones anyway :DIt seems so out of character for Obama to support something like FISA, which means he’s really only doing it for political reasons. The problem with this situation is that this is exactly what Obama strives to stop.
I definitely can’t support his decision in this. November is a few months away, not sure how I will feel about him then. Definitely not choosing McCain though, thats for sure.
Let em hash it out - more power to them. Greenwald, Olberman and Dean normalized speaking out when others ran for cover.
Yep.
It is a nice change from the usual screeching Wingnuts though.
Well said. Totally agree.
I said that when I read the bill, and talked to the folks at the ACLU who had been following it, that it was not clear. I raised it when appearing on Countdown with the hope that someone might figure it out. But that is the nature of this badly drafted bill that it is not clear what it does and does not do, and the drafters are not saying
Just how bad does a bill have to be if John Dean is unclear what it means? Does Obama really know what he is supporting, can any Senator Dem or GOP explain what this bill means? I don’t think you should be allowed to vote for a bill if you don’t understand it.
1,685 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher:
Thanx for the link to the “new” Obama page “Senator Obama - Please Vote Against FISA”…I joined and will report back on the emails I get from these folks but it’s not jest enough to beg the good Senator to vote against the bill, he must WORK against it and use his considerable clout and visibility (and money machine) to organize opposition in his own party. I have had two discussions with Obama staff in the last 2-3 dayz about this and have told them that my family will not contribute one more dime until we have the Senator on record not only opposing the bill but lendin’ his presence to the fight to strip immunity from this abomination.
I am convinced that there is a lot more high level political calculus bein run in the rarefied air that we common folk don’t reach or even espire to and that there is still time to kill this thing. If that happens and Obama is on board, it will insure an Obama victory in November but more importantly, it will put the people back leading the leader to where they wanna go.
KEEP THE FAITH, THE CURE FOR A SICK DEMOCRACY IS MORE DEMOCRACY!!
anybody got a link to the text of the proposed Act? I found something in it the other night that I think contradicts Dean…
ThingsComeUndone I agree…
Such should have been the case with the PATRIOT ACT…
I’ll never forget what Dennis Kucinich said in the primary debates:
“I voted against the PATRIOT act because I actually read it!”
It seems so out of character for Obama to support something like FISA, which means he’s really only doing it for political reasons.
I agree but what political reasons Obama is ahead in the polls, has way more money than McCain and supporting this bill puts that in jeopardy. So what does he gain politically by supporting this? Is Obama being blackmailed?
My guess would be he’s trying to show that hes somehow “tough on terror” by supporting this.
But who knows, I’ve been known to be wrong about these things.
Unfortunately, Obama probably hasn’t spent a fraction of the amount of time thinking about FISA as the average pup here. (Not that he’s stupid, or anything. Just busy with other priorities). I can’t imagine a legitimate scenario in which he votes for FISA now and gets his DOJ to prosecute crimes later.
I heard a “talking point” that without this crappy bill, that is, by doing “nothing” or by filibustering, FISA is not in effect. This was from a “liberal” journalist on the Randi Rhodes show last night. This didn’t seem correct to me. He claimed that we are not in accordance with the 4th amendment w/o FISA and therefore w/o this new bill.
Sorry I missed his name. He was really taking Feingold to task…
Is this correct?
Give me a break, Obama’s a constitutional lawyer. He knows way more about this than anyone here, with the possible exception of Christy and looseheadprop.
pdf warning 114 pages
crosses fingers, presses submit
I saw that Countdown episode. Dean just tossed out as a “maybe” as a possibilty.
Olberman has conflated and inflated it to be some grand plan by Obama to go back and prosecute. last night IIRC (I wans’t paying close attention I was repainting my bathroom and listening to the TV playing in another room)Olberman said sommething nuts like, “Why would Obama care about this bill and civil suits if he intends to go after them criminally.” [that’s NOT an actual quote]
I have two things to say in repose to KO 1) Obama NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING!
2)as BMAZ has pointed out: Statute of Limitations, Statute of Limitations, Statute of Limitations.
I think KO has caught the ratings bug.
handy 1 pager on current bill for us non lawyers
Kobe was reading his copy of the Washington Post this morning when he came across this fine ad by Color of Change and Blue America that told him Steny Hoyer wanted to give the government the same powers to spy on people that they had used against Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.
http://firedoglake.com/2008/06.....gton-post/
Obama is aware that Center Dems like Steny and Joe Lieberman are laughing at him for endorsing Joe in the Primary and now for supporting this bill.
Obama the Center Democrats do not like you, they will never like you, you cannot win them over. However we who have been by your side are not going to be Sister Souljahed on this issue so you can look cool to your new fake friends.
Go on repeat Carter’s mistakes and walk the Center path.
Lastr night on KO, someone, maybe it was ALter said that “Obama loves tobe attacked by the left” b/c it helps prove he is not a libural.
Almost as if he FU’d us deliberately to make out angry to prove to “moderates” that he ain’t no hippy lefty. If so, he is enjoying our outrage.
Even if you could work around the statute issue, a freaking monkey to sell reasonable doubt to a jury after the Congress enacted legislation saying it was all good faith and necessary. Alberto Gonzales might could even sell reasonable doubt; although if I was the defendant, I would prefer my chances with the monkey.
Look at the silver lining in this: it proves that Keith Obamamann didn’t just support Obama out of Hillary-hatred. (Which is what I thought.) He really does love Obama unconditinally. “My candidate right or wrong!” With liberals like that who needs conservatives?
Obama has made no secret all along that he’s a centrist through and through. I can’t believe so many people here don’t see that. I’d like to repeat a prediction I made over at digby’s:
Obama will “compromise” on women’s right to choose. It will be something like supporting the outlawing of third-trimester abortions or something like that. He has been reaching out to the snake handlers and I predict he will cave on abortion soon– by midsummer. Mark my word.
Do you really think he’s read the bill? I don’t. And just because he’s got law cred doesn’t mean he’s invested in the issue like we dirty hippies are.
(Very off topic)
Bow to his infinite cuteness. http://farm4.static.flickr.com.....807a_b.jpg
Face it. You could use a quick diversion from the horrors of teh FISA bill, etc., etc., and what better diversion than the world’s cutest puppy.
(On topic - though Che hasn’t blogged it yet, and may never blog it b/c he can get buy on his cuteness, Che got an A in Con Law at his fancy Law School (really!), and he thinks it sucks as much as suck could (United States’ Constitution)constitutionally suck).
1,685 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen ThingsComeUndone:
“Is Obama being blackmailed?”
I have asked myself this question over and over again the last few dayz and I keep comin’ up against my knowledge that the former president and his wife corrupt everything they put their hands on…I don’t think we know everything that Obama had ta give up to Mr. and Mrs. Bill for support and even now on “unity day” Mr. Bill is orchestrating the media with his pouting schoolboy act. I do know that Obama is too smart to kill the people based money machine he has built that has enabled ‘im to opt out of public financing and I refuse to believe that he really thinks he can win without the progressive base because we have nowhere ta go. I think he’s been genuinely surprised by the uprisin’ of the sans culotte out here and I get the impression that he and his people are madly tryin’ ta tack back into the wind on this issue.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, AIN’T DEMOCRACY FUN??!!!
Thats what makes his support worse and John Dean actually has plenty of experience in this kind of law with his association with Nixon and if he can’t figure it out well Obama is a little distracted trying to run a presidential campaign.
Holy Cow!
I haven’t seen you in about a year!
How ya been?
muwahahaha!
I used the tool on Obama’s site to post my own thingy!
Senator Obama-FISA gives telecoms permission to sell our secrets to terroristsSenator Obama-FISA gives telecoms permission to sell our secrets to terrorists
it awaits administrator approval
Here’s my comment on Keith’s post. I thought it was worth sharing.
What kind of crap is that? Jeebus
I don’t want to get into a fight with a flower :-)
but I think someone like Obama who is educated in constitutional law must be invested in protecting the fourth amendment. Just think– even Bob Barr cares about it!
Yesterday someone here linked to this KOS diary. Well worth reading:
A pragmatists view on FISA.
GO perris!
Stock market in the toilet
Oil sets new record high
Afghanistan casualties heating up
global warming doing well
Nice Job Clusterfuck-
2)as BMAZ has pointed out: Statute of Limitations, Statute of Limitations, Statute of Limitations.
If the White House is pushing a bill to protect themselves from laws that they may have broken well wouldn’t that suspend the clock on the Statute of limitations? Never mind that with all the political hires at the Dept of Justice there is no way Bush would be prosecuted.
EPU - Long time no see
Salutations
Parentheses much?
;~P
My comment at 54 was supposed to be a response to this!
Hey busted. I’m very good. Out in LA, lovin California, working on some cool projects.
Other than world’s cutest puppy posts, I avoid boring myself on the political side of things though I lurk/hang back and enter the contests (only to be cheated out of victory each time of course (TwoPAC should have won, and yes, I am very bitter), eventhough I KNOW that is going to happen).
Aye yup, what BMAZ said
a most icelandic to see you elliot!
I bought a whole crate of parentheses at a yard sale last year. Still got plenty left.
No. If the bill doesn’t speak to criminal conduct, which is the basis of this whole inane discussion, then there is nothing tolling the statute.
Citizen bmaz:
It’s the kinda “crap” that some of you folks want to hide from…ever since the armistice between Obama and Mr. and Mrs. Bill things have been headin south for the Senator from Illinois. Wake up!
One would certainly hope so. . . but his actions say otherwise, no?
Also picked up footnotes, and bold.
EPU! missed you brother. glad to see you back
The key, as in most things, is moderation.
waving to Che’s human companion !
damn! what a cutie
AIN’T DEMOCRACY FUN??!!!
Lets wait to see how this plays out I don’t like Obama on this issue so I nail him on it. Lets see if Obama is any better than Bush, will he listen to us voters? Can he admit when he has made a mistake?
I still support Obama but I’ve stopped giving him money.
I joined that group and I’ve been getting copied on over comment. there are a LOT of unhappy Obama supporters wrt FISA.
Hopefully Captain Hopechange will get the fucking message.
It’s now Olbermann 48.5% to Greenwald’s 46.2%. I’m not sure how that adds up to 100, but whatever.
And All I gots is a bunch of ;~P’s
NOPE
I can’t figure out how to comment on the original blog
you have to sign up as a member first I believe.
oh perris, I read that ICELAND thread after the fact and couldn’t stop giggling, that whole ongoing exchange is an FDL classic!
thanks for the link to HuffPo vote. I just voted for GG, too. He is at 46.1%, KO is at 48.6%, so it’s a statistical tie right now, since I assume fewer than 1,500 folks have voted.
P.S. also just joined the new list-serv over at my dot barackobama dot com. This is going to be fun for July 4th recess.
It sounds like people are rationalizing and justifying why they supported Obama. I guess he looked like a lefty kind of guy. He is just another triangulator using the Clinton/Morris playbook. Looks like the netroots lefties are left out to dry like a turd on a stick. We just need to help educate BO.
On Tuesday Obama met w/ a group of CEOs, including Brian Roberts of Comcast
http://hotlineblog.nationaljou.....ofest.html
I would feel better about it had Obama done the right thing on FISA.
handy 1 pager on current bill for us non lawyers
*Now* i find a one-pager! - and it has the provision I was thinking about and digging through the long version for:
No cause of action shall lie in any court against any electronic communication service provider for providing any information, facilities, or assistance in accordance with a directive issued pursuant to paragraph (1). [Sec. 702(h)(3)]
That’s pretty definitive.
Now I’ve seen somewhere another excerpt which speaks solely to civil cases, which I’m sure is what John Dean was speaking to.
(currently not in the mood to go diving through the other 98 pages looking for it).
Unless I’m in moderation (and I didn’t type anything immoderate), it ate my post. so……
Hey LHP. Hey CBL2 (even if you did, I believe, win the naming contest - I am bitter, bitter, bitter*)
________________________
* BITTER !!!!!!!!!!
looseheadprop, there are some crimes that have no statute to limit prosecution.
AND I believe the clock begins when the crime is discovered in many cases, for instance, if information JUST became available my invention was stolen, I believe the clock would start when I can document said discovery
I was looking for that link!
The remaining percentages are probably write in votes for Che?
thanx for finding that elliot, I will now bookmark
As one of the first and most persistant critics here of Keith Olbermann, I can only say that I t… … .o.
Has the honorable Senator from Illinois given a coherent explanation (or any explanation at all) about why he’s voting the way he’s voting on that bill?
Slightly off topic…probably a little early to ask a question like this, but does anyone have a link/resource of state polls done that includes third parties at this point? I’m trying to do a quick regional analysis of third party support.
So far the only poll I can find is for Georgia, Barr’s home state.
Any help would be appreciated
Without this bill, the current FISA law would still be in effect. Glenn Greenwald in his first post on this quoted Jonathan Alter of Newsweek responding to Olbermann.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g.....index.html
(My bold)
Needless to say Alter is an idiot.
have you received the flyer on my Contest Winning Secrets Course ?
Sign Up Today ! bwaaahaaahaaaa
(ok, I was just kidding, dont vaporize me :D)
707
More likely Bill talked to Mayor Daley after all where else would you go to learn about corruption from a Chicago politician. Or maybe just something embarrassing I figure its either Daley from Chicago or Bush listening to Obama with FISA given Obama’s support on the vote I’m leaning toward Bush and FISA, but just what is Hilary’s position on this bill she and Obama could both kill it if they wanted too?
Che had a good time with that flyer.
The problem with that analysis is that he is narrowly focused on the question of whether blocking this FISA bill would restore the Fourth Amendment, and since he argues that it doesn’t, he concludes that it doesn’t much matter. The analogy I would make is that he’s arguing that since the house already burned down, we shouldn’t care that they’re sabotaging the fire hydrant. There are several big problems with that:
1. He’s ignoring the fact that discovery in the telecom suits is one of the few active avenues we have to exposing the lawbreaking of the Bush Administration.
2. He’s ignoring the fact that even if we do get the “real” problem fixed (the Patriot Act), there’s no good reason to add yet another difficult-to-fix problem to the pile, this one with the next president’s vote in favor.
3. Arguably the worst — he’s ignoring the damage done by explicitly excusing lawbreaking if it was ordered by the president. The Bushies have effectively (though not explicitly) claimed that the president is above the law (signing statements, etc.), but have ducked legal challenges to those claims because for the next authoritarian president, they didn’t want to have precedent against them on record, only the claims themselves. Now they’ll have an actual precedent enshrined in law, without even having had to take the risk of losing in court.
there it is in a nutshell, a perfect encapsulation how not to exert political pressure.
how about If the Senator does the right thing, then he might get supported?
the only thing that allows me to make such an outrageous, counterintuitive formulation is that I do not subscribe to the Axiom of automatic support for the Least-Worst, the (D) lease on my loyalties having expired in the mid-nineties.
I think tolling is unavoidable, in either a civil or criminal action, in that the entire project was massively cloaked in secrecy, and created in such a manner as to very purposefully conceal its very existence.
To this day, the government has not admitted that these companies are engaged in the activities complained of/suspected.
Who was the Senator on the Floor this week talking about how “the companies allegedly providing assistance” to the government had had a period during which they were down, “which caused us, permanently, the loss of valuable intelligence”?.
It is *still* not being admitted that such a program exists. (but just in case that it does - hey - they’re immune).
This is the comment I left at his website
It’s not too late for him to come out strong against the FISA/telecom immunity bill, in spite of any cloture vote. Let’s keep his feet to the fire!
read Christy’s Taking Back The Reins Of Government
Phew! Thanks so much Hugh. It didn’t sound right and I like to slap things down out in the open as much as possible.
So pups if you heard this crap, it’s just wrong!
Lets not forget Sen. Obama’s vote in favor of Patriot II - what a champion of civil liberties!
bravo! (brava?)!
heh
But I have to say I am a little sad to see KO’s normally astute common-taters get this so wrong. It hurts the quality of KO’s show for me. Why hasn’t KO let Rachel Maddow come on to explain how KO and Alter just have it backward?
What about anyone who is arrested thanks to FISA but then is found to be innocent, or thanks to FISA is tortured/dies in custody which is a war crime even if they are guilty. Never mind that many still have not gotten that speedy trial the Constitution promises.
This is the form letter he sent me as a constituent who had written to him on the subject. I leave out the first paragraphs in which he recites some of the legislative history. These are the last two core paragraphs.
(my bold) and the [] too.
I just got off telephone with DiFi’s office (again). I called to thank her for her for her position on the