We tried. Well, until next time folks…

zed

looks like we have a lot Senatore=s that need to be/get replaced an hopefully over time they will be replaced one by one. Each and every one that voted for this bill is by default violating their oath to the constitution:>(

Before you get too disapointed and fired up by these donkey Senetors please digg this great Post by Ian!

DIGG

(from below)

In the February Senate votes on FISA, 29 senators voted against it. To the group who voted against cloture listed above, note these folks who changed their minds to vote YEA today:

Akaka – HI
Bingamen – NM
Cardin – MD
Dorgan – ND
Feinstein – CA
Klobuchar – MN
Levin – MI
Murray – WA
Reid – RI
Reed – NV
Stabenow – MI
Tester – MT

(Byrd and Kennedy also voted NAY in February, but did not vote today for health reasons.)

These folks need to be leaned on, as well as others like Sheldon Whitehouse, Obama, and Clinton.

Thanks Ian.

We have a lot of work to do.

I could easily be wrong, but in a relative kind of way I’m impressed with Schumur’s vote. His state was hit on 9/11. In that vein Lautenberg and Menendez in NJ took risks that are much easier in a red state. Where the @#$% is Seestak? His office is definitely getting a call and an email from me tomorrow.

Done.

Thanks for the link.

nahant, Digg is telling me I got the offical Digg…

I do hope that we can now see Senator Barkey for what he is. A gutless wonder who will provide no leadership whatsover in the direction we progressives want to go.

Kmiec anybody? And if you don’t know who that is or why I mention him use teh awsome Google. I”ve been yellin’ about the SellOut Obama for over a year and…

My throat is a little hoarse so figure out the Kmiec clue on your own. As for Senator ‘Hope’….

I’ve shit him.

Where the @#$% is Seestak?

Meant Tester from Montana, sorry

Ya i caught that… Dam we did it again Neuro….. I tell you what you have the duty tonight and I will refrain until you put the digg up! Oh boy Neuro there are already six diggs:>)

That list suggests to me the leadership did some heavy leaning.

Much appreciated.

They got everyone to vote to provide cover for the ring leaders so forget the 80 we can’t target them all instead get the ring leaders.
That and we can hold off or entirely put aside giving to Obama until this plays out or we get something of equal or greater value back like National Healthcare,
But until then no cash!
Obama can beg from corporate donors like the rest of the Dems.

What? I thought Obama was supposed to levitate and walk on water to Make All Things New?

Wexler on KO now

just like clinton – that’s why they both did such a great job leading on this. /s

He did tell us he was about change.

He just didn’t finish the quote.

“the more things change, the more they stay the same”

By that measure he’s the greatest change agent around!

Listen to Senator Reid close the Senate – he states that the Housing bill won’t be taken up again until after the Fourth of July recess.

” … it’s a shame I know we talked about the fact we were unable to complete the Housing Bill but we’ll complete that the first week we get back, and ummm, by then, Senators Dodd and Shelby maybe will have more things worked out with the House …”

Big change from his previous expression of Housing having priority over FISA and the Supplemental Appropriations.

I can also say, having watched this clown make a hundred or so promises and threats, that the threat to stay in session ’til Saturday is bluster.

Nah. Just uphold his current oath and assume the leadership position a nomination provides.

Anyway, for now, no more lunch money for Obama from this progressive.

OK nahant whatever works

In case I stray away from the computer, give me 10 minutes to get the Digg in, then if I haven’t, fire away

obama, a lawyer and constitutional scholar/professor not standing up for the constitution is like someone working at planned parenthood agreeing with abstinence only sex education.

While I doubt Clinton would have done otherwise if she were the nominee, she is in a bind — if she were to come out strongly against it when Obama has said he’s for it, she’d be vilified for undercutting him and not being a good unity person. Right now Clinton is in “I will do whatever Obama asks so I cannot be blamed if he does not win” mode.

What? I thought Obama was supposed to levitate and walk on water to Make All Things New?

Naw, just uphold his oath and defend the Constitution. Turns out this is too much to ask of all but a small handful of Congressional Democrats.

Wexler arguing McCain does NOT have good credentials on security issues

For all the progress we’ve made, it’s a good gauge for how politically weak liberals still are. It will take a miracle to get Dems to strip out the retroactive immunity provision. If we could just do that, we could depend on George Boosh to veto the abomination.

Really disappointing news. And beyond sad that neither Clinton nor Obama nor McCain felt this was important enough to vote on.

– The FISA Cloture vote just passed. This limits debate to 30 hours, then the bill will be voted on. –

NO

The cloture vote was to limit debate on the question “Should we proceed to the consideration of FISA?” After 30 hours, the vote will change the FISA bill from “not pending” to “pending.”

AFTER that, and ONLY after that, can the Senate vote “on the bill” itself.

yep.

obama is about the change that means a change of bosses, but not a change in the system.

clinton promised to fight, but was only ever willing to fight for herself.

Barry The Privacy Slayer could have stood up last Friday — and today — for the Constitution. Instead, he lay down for those seeking to destroy the Fourth Amendment and replace it with corporate immunity — as well as immunity for the Bushies and Dem “leaders” who were complicit in massive and sustained violations of criminal law.

For this, Barry — the former Constitutional Law lecturer — deserves our lasting contempt. His naked ambition compels the Smiling Suit to seek the highest Federal elected office sworn to uphold the Constitution. His choices demonstrate he will corrode the Constitution in pursuit of Power.

What a vile, cynical man.

I do not have words to describe my contempt and revulsion for Barry and the other ambitious Federal pols who gut the Constitution so they may feast with Power. He is a willing servant of the megacorps who seek to overthrow democracy infavor of oligarchy. His actions re FISA are despicable: so is he.

What kind of leaning? Given how the GOP is polling right now just what Dem senator needs the leaderships help?
What Dem Senator with Presidential ambitions ( I think all Senators think they should be President) wants to piss us off seeing how much cash we raised for Obama?
Do the Democrats think that we are a nice, forgiving bunch, that does not hold grudges?
The Democrats do realize that thanks to Bush the next 2 years of the economy if we are lucky are going to suck. The Dems will need every friend they can get or they can repeat the bad parts of Carter’s Presidency!

I hate to tell everyone I told you so. . .

but I will anyway.

Had him pegged years ago.

won’t there be some amendments first?

You are on DUTY…. Neuro and I will back you up:>)

The FISA Cloture vote just passed. This limits debate to 30 hours, then the bill will be voted on.

Ian, this makes it sound like they are now about to debate the FISA bill itself. But according to cboldt in the previous thread, they are now about to debate the motion to proceed, i.e., “Should we proceed to the consideration of H.R.6034?” Only after that passes can debate on the FISA bill begin and there must then be another cloture vote to limit that debate.

Correct? (Granted, it’s a distinction without much difference at this point, unless a bunch of people do something really surprising.)

Had him pegged years ago.

linky?

We have a government whose workings are utterly opaque to even the well-informed citizen.

And that’s just Congress. There are opacities within opacities over in the Executive Branch.

And we think we have a representative democracy?

I need a Don’t Blame Me, I voted For Kucinich t-shirt. *s

Thanks for the correction. Not meant in a snarky way at all, but how does this change the substance? Apparently (second hand) Reid’s office has said that we get 30 hours then there is a vote on the bill. Does your clarification mean that after the 30 hours there could be even more debate, or is the “30 hours then we vote” essentially correct, even if there is more than one vote?

Please feel free to ignore.

Will there be a vote on Harry’s amendment to strip out retroactive immunity for the telecoms?

Do you suppose he heard from the dems on this. I thought Reid was doing a good job putting housing before FISA. What a worm.

Just you watch.
Once Hastert and McConnell are replaced as Speaker and Senate Majority Leader,
things will be different.

Your wish is my. . .

I hate to tell everyone I told you so. . .

Look most of us knew he was no progressive but were willing to support him because the Republicans were so clearly worse. But when he and Congressional Democrats gratuitously trash not just core Democratic principles but Constitutional ones as well, the distinctions between Republicans and Democrats blur. It is important to remember that the Republicans couldn’t get away with this FISA deal when they were in the majority. For that we had to wait until Democrats were in control. I was willing to swallow a lot and expect little from Obama but I can not accept this. As I said earlier today, I no longer support Obama.

found my own link..

seriously though pach, this is not the place to rub our faces in it. i didn’t vote for obama – my disappointment is the pain i feel is for my country.

Aahhh. Good point.

Updated and corrected. My thanks. Obviously I need a copy of Roberts Rules on my desk. Blrrrghh.

From Reid’s staff:

“It was cloture vote on motion to proceed to debate on the bill.

Senate now has 30 hours to have a debate on FISA.”

Never saw any evidence he was either a liberal or had any spine, either. Wish you were wrong, but you aren’t.

We have to vote for Obama but we don’t have to deceive ourselves about who he is, or the wo9rk still remaining before us. That’s my point.

yes, as i recall, i got called out for saying that neither obama nor clinton were progressives not too long ago.

We have to vote for Obama

no. we don’t.

Forget “more and better” Democrats. We just need better Democrats. At the local, state and federal level. I actually, oddly, have a bit more hope for the House. The Senate is actually much more conservative, and it’s a lot easier to take out a Rep than a Senator.

I agree completely.

Digby had some thoughts on this earlier today.

– won’t there be some amendments first? –

– From Reid’s staff: “It was cloture vote on motion to proceed to debate on the bill. Senate now has 30 hours to have a debate on FISA.” –

It’s no wonder the public is confused, Reid’s staff is using shorthand that is naturally misleading. To be charitable, he’s probably using that shorthand to give cover to Dodd, Feingold, and others who will NOT use “all the procedural delay possible.” But he damn well knows the difference between cloture on a motion to proceed (that’s the velcro flip chart count, how many cloture motions on motions to proceed); and cloture on passage of an amendment or a bill.

There can’t be an amendment before the bill is pending. And right now, the bill is not pending. They are debating whether or not to make it pending. In Senate parlance, they are debating “the motion to proceed to the consideration of H.R.6304″

We just need better Democrats.

And how can we tell the difference?
How do you know a Donna Edwards from a Jay McNerney?
A Maria Cantwell from a Jon Tester or Jim Webb?

Wow. You mean all we have to do is ask Pach and he’ll link to a famous post from years gone by?!

In that case, please, please, PLEASE engage us in that classic of classics…

“Brandi” from “Talk Sex!” That is my all-time fav.

[sigh]

You’re right “we” don’t have to.

But, any vote Obama does not get will be interpreted by Republicans as support for their postions on our occupations in the Middle East, the Economy, taxes, universal health care, immigration, the environment, torture, FISA, white supremacy, and so much more…..

The Senate has an elevated sense of its own importance and is mostly made up of people who only speak to each other. IMO

Please keep that happy thought.
jo6pac
Everything is on schedule, please move along.

– Obviously I need a copy of Roberts Rules on my desk. –

Senate Rules don’t track Roberts Rules very well. In many ways they have the same function, and same general layout; but in detail they are different. And the Senate is REALLY different in that they MOST OFTEN violate their own rules by entering into unanimous consent orders. The rules say one thing, but they do something different.

They’re only weak because they want to be.

However you slice it, the fact that so many Democrats ducked on this vote is NOT a good thing.

Not for the Constitution.
Not for the Rule of Law.
Not for the Oversight of the Executive Branch.
Not for the Powers and Prerogatives of the Senate.
Not for the Democratic Party.
And most certainly not for the People of the United States of America.

It could have been stopped today, and it wasn’t. So the fight continues, as uphill as it may be.

Indeed!

forgot about that one. thanks for making me smile!

I really like Paul Krugman.

Not kidding I live in Jay McNerney neigborhood even met one on one and ask why change hos mind on the war. I received the standard it takes time to leave, he just came big from the normal dog and pony show.
jo6pac

Well put.

It’s apparent that we’ll need better Dems in congress to keep President Obama in line. Unfortunate, but true.

– However you slice it, the fact that so many Democrats ducked on this vote is NOT a good thing. –

I agree.

While I don’t take a vote to limit debate on a motion to proceed as a good proxy for a position on the underlying bill, the margin of passage is a darn good indicator of 60+ solid votes on the bill.

“Resistance is futile.”

Dodd and Feingold can make the Senate stay until Saturday, or they can get it over with tomorrow – the result will be the same, FISA passes before Sunday.

I donated to McNerny on Blue America and get email and snail mail from his campaign all the time. Makes me ill. I think they’ve spent twice as much as I donated is the only consolation.

When I click over to Digby’s and see that giant HULLABALOO…

Well, let’s just say the memories. I think Digby is the second one from the right.

– It could have been stopped today –

Sure. All it would take is 60 votes AGAINST cloture. That would have been a sign that the bill wouldn’t pass even if it was taken up.

But with the votes stacking up the way the are, roughly (even 65-30 would have been a bad omen), it’s pretty clear that the jig is up.

Sometimes people don’t turn out how you’d hope. But people who won’t even say the right things are another matter. Now Obama did say the right things on FISA, but he said the wrong things on so many things and has a record of talking tough and folding on the Senate floor. It was obvious he wasn’t a progressive, but was a centrist. It was obvious he wasn’t a leader. I’ve been saying that about him (and Clinton) for months and months and months.

Actions/words. They tell you a lot. And I think the netroots is getting better at picking candidates. We’ll be able to tell better in 2009 when see how the next class votes.

I’m NOT voting for a slick-talkin’ AssClown.

Folks say McSame will be worse. I hardly see any proof of that.

Too me there seems no limit to what Barkey is capable of doing:

Steal from the taxpayers of IL….check

Tell the nation the Clinton’s are racists…check…I mean fuck WHO are you tryin’ to kid with this bs.

Tell me I’m a racist ’cause I dont’ think The One is more than a low-info crook? Check on that.

Exhibit absolute contempt for everything the Democratic Party has tried to stand for for 60 years….yeah, check that.

Where the esteemed Senator on fire I would not deign to piss on him.

I hope they make them lose a day out of their weekend, at least. Sometimes being petty makes a point.

But, any vote Obama does not get will be interpreted by Republicans as support for their postions on our occupations in the Middle East, the Economy, taxes, universal health care, immigration, the environment, torture, FISA, white supremacy, and so much more…..

Even in the minority Congressional Democrats could have done a lot to oppose all of these. They didn’t. When they won (with our help) in 2006, they could have done even more. They didn’t. Instead they agreed to fund the war well into 2009, trash the 4th Amendment, bail out corporations, and endorse domestic spying.

I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape by the present discussion. A ham sandwich could beat McCain in November. The media are running around making it seem that McCain has a real chance but that’s just the propaganda line they are receiving from their corporate masters. The problem not with Obama but with us is precisely this: we will support him no matter what. This gives him exactly zero reason to pay attention to our opinion on anything.

Money. Whether you want your bills through. Whether you want your pork through. Whether you want your patronage appointments through. Esp. with a Dem pres, Dem Sen, Dem house coming up, a lot of money and power and perks are at stake. Don’t think Reid and co. won’t punish people who cross them too often. It’ll all be done quietly, but it will be done.

Cboldt, based on your understanding, the ‘motion to proceed’ WILL allow amendments to be made; I say this because of what Feinstein said today about her willingness to vote in favor of an amendment that would require the District Court to rule on the legality of of Bush’s TSP.

and after reading Obama’s latest statement about the bill, it would seem the VERY least he could do -given his statement about fighting to strip immunity out of the bill would be to introduce such an amendment.

In the February Senate votes on FISA, 29 senators voted against it. To the group who voted against cloture listed above, note these folks who changed their minds to vote YEA today:

Akaka – HI
Bingamen – NM
Cardin – MD
Dorgan – ND
Feinstein – CA
Klobuchar – MN
Levin – MI
Murray – WA
Reid – RI
Reed – NV
Stabenow – MI
Tester – MT

(Byrd and Kennedy also voted NAY in February, but did not vote today for health reasons.)

These folks need to be leaned on, as well as others like Sheldon Whitehouse, Obama, and Clinton.

Thanks, Peterr. One of my Senators flipped the wrong way.

I think the best strategy going forward is
(a) Support the Feingold et al amendment to strip the immunity title from the Bill. As Ian sez, chances are slim, but it is another opportunity to see who is with us on this.

(b) Support delaying the votes on the amendments (such as the one above) and the final bill.

That ain’t much, but at this point, it looks like all we’ve got.

Bob in HI

It was obvious he wasn’t a progressive, but was a centrist.

Even a centrist shouldn’t vote for, or enable, HR6304,
if that word has anything close to its real meaning.

Oh, I forgot, JoeMentum and Lindsey are centrists.
Never mind.

Dukakis had a higher lead in 88 and blew it. We’ll see. The Republicans are going to throw a huge pile at the fan and see how much winds up hitting Obama. Their only hope is to go hard negative, and they will do it.

Centrist isn’t an ideological term. It just means “center”. And the center of the Senate is very right wing.

there’s a lot of racism in this country too – including among northern dems.

For Barry The Privacy Slayer:

Can’t hear you ‘cos your mouth’s full of shit
Can’t hear you ‘cos your mouth’s full of shit
Do something about it
Can’t hear you ‘cos your mouth’s full of shit

You think you’re god’s gift
You’re a liar
I wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire

You think you’re god’s gift
You’re a liar
I wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire

Can’t hear you ‘cos your mouth’s full of shit
Can’t hear you ‘cos your mouth’s full of shit
Do something about it
Can’t hear you ‘cos your mouth’s full of shit

Mouth Full Of Shit

Anarchy

chumbawamba

I’m shocked.

From all your previous posts, I always thought you strongly supported Barack.

Where is this coming from?

– based on your understanding, the ‘motion to proceed’ WILL allow amendments to be made; I say this because of what Feinstein said today about her willingness to vote in favor of an amendment that would require the District Court to rule on the legality of of Bush’s TSP. –

After the motion to proceed is passed, the bill will be pending. There is all sorts of complex dance available here too, but the simplest version is that amendments are taken up “in order” (order can be dictated by the Majority leader, or can be negotiated by unanimous consent agreements), subjected to unlimited debate, and when there is unanimous consent to vote on an amendment, the vote is taken.

If there isn’t unanimous consent to take a vote, 16 Senators can limit debate with a cloture motion, and 60 Senators in agreement can cause debate time to be limited to 30 hours. That time limit works on a vote-by-vote basis. Theoretically, if a bill had 100 contentious amendments, it could have 101 cloture votes — 100 (1 for each) on amendments, and 1 on final passage of the bill.

What I predict will happen is some back room negotiation (probably already done), and a public pronouncement of a unanimous consent agreement to consider the following amendments (list), with XX minutes of debate for each, followed by votes.

The presence of unanimous consent means (obviously) an absence of objection to limit the right to unlimited debate. The objectors probably won’t force use of the cloture widget on any amendment, or on final passage — even though they have the right and power to do so, any one of them, solo.

I’m so happy to hear that. You have provided literally minutes of hilarity with that one…. more than mere minutes, really. My cousin, especially loves to invoke that post…

LOL. thanks for the laugh. much appreciated.

may i have another, sir:?

We have to vote for Obama

I don’t – and I won’t.

I’ll never vote for a Rethug.

I live in CA, where Obama will obviously win.

I’ll be writing in Dodd.

So who are you going to vote for? Or are you sitting this one out. Obama is a disappointment, but not as bad as Nancy Pelosi. Representative democracy leaves a lot to be desired and it’s getting worse as running for office gets more and more expensive. I don’t think more of the same will bring a different result in four years.

so, we have about 15 senators who were against this bill, but not enough to really fight it. and we have about 30 representatives that have fought the worst of the fisa legislation.

a year ago i didn’t know it was this bad.

Well, until next time folks…

You mean, the next time a Republican administration violates the Fourth Amendment? Because BushCo has made it clear that it considers the whole FIFA folderol unconstitutional, and only uses it to keep that card — getting SCOTUS to declare that there ain’t no limits on what President Imperator can snoop — in its sleeve.

They’ll be back wanting more exceptions, more immunizations. Fucking coward Dems paid the Danegeld.

kirk – in CA do write ins get counted?

it is very difficult to get write ins counted here in MA (we had a write in campaign against kerry in 2002 after he voted for the aumf).

i don’t know what i’m going to do. i’m too pissed off right now to decide.

There is a Grit TV post up above

What are you smoking man!

I want some of that. Over a year and a half ago I was banned from OpenLeft ClosedMinds because I told ‘BoneHead’ Bowers that there ‘…would not be a dime’s worth of difference between how Barkey and McSame would govern.’

Banned.

‘Cause I could see the trainweck a comin’.

I understand that Kos told the teeming hordes at CheetoLand that ANY DEMOCRAT WHO SUPPORTS THE FISA ‘COMPROMISE’ MUST BE PRIMARIED…..

What’s that yellow drippy stuff all over her ugly phiz there Markos?

I will write in Clinton

Gotta go see what Drinking for Obama, Liberally, Oakland has on their tiny minds….

Blea…four years leading that group and they’re all Kool-Aided out….

Thanks for the clarification; so Obama COULD offer an amendment to have the District Court rule on the legality of Bush’s TSP knowing that Feinstein -a major backer of the bill and having clout as the Chairman of the Rules Cmte. and sitting on the Intelligence Cmte. – would vote ‘yea’ and probably carry a lot of those supporting the bill along with her.
It’s probably the best that could be hoped for.

selise, you ask a good question and I honestly don’t know. IIRC the write-ins are only counted if they make a diference, but I may be wrong on this. I fully expect my write-in for Dodd won’t make any difference, and won’t be counted. I just know I can’t vote for anyone who deliberately undermines the Constitution. For me, that means no Rethugs, and no Barry The Privacy Slayer.

I wouldn’t piss on him if he were on fire.

In CA, write-in’s ARE counted IF the write-in candidate has a slate of electors. Anyone who ran in the primary does have a slate of electors.

… in CA do write ins get counted?

In California, the write-in candidate must file

http://www.sos.ca.gov/election…..wi2008.pdf

– based on your understanding, the ‘motion to proceed’ WILL allow amendments to be made –

Knowing that description of the options and pitfalls in “making amendments” is sure to confuse more people than it educates, I’m going to “do it” anyway.

The Senate’s open amendment process is regulated by permitting only two amendments to be simultaneously pending, if the rules are followed. I want to reiterate that the Senate OFTEN violates it’s rules, but doing so requires UNANIMOUS consent.

Anyway, back to the two pending amendments. The first of those is called a “first degree” amendment. It amends either the bill, or a complete substitute amendment (which for purposes of counting amendments, a complete substitute doesn’t count as an amendment – it’s a complete, fresh, new bill – just has the name “substitute amendment”). The second amendment permitted under the rules is an amendment to the first degree amendment – this one is called a second degree amendment. Once those two are filed, the Senate is supposed to debate the amendment, then vote on it. Repeat as necessary with additional amendments.

When the Majority leader files these first two amendments, he has done what is referred to as “filling the amendment tree.” No other Senator can offer an amendment, without the majority leaders consent to set the pending amendment aside. The opposition party always bitches like hell when this happens, because the bill is in a take it or leave it condition. Reid is the champion of filling the tree, tied with Frist.

When a bill has a mess of co-pending amendments, it’s due to a mess of unanimous consent agreements to set aside the pending amendment, and add another to the heap. At some point, this stack of pending amendments is disposed of with votes, points of order, and sundry other tricks such as the parliamentary nuke, “motion to table.”

With respect to the FISA bill, I guarantee you that Dodd, Feingold, Reid and McConnell (and any other Senator who has an interest) will dicker out a process that they figure is sufficiently open to permit them to express their point of view from the floor of the Senate, and sufficiently opaque to confuse their constituents. I expect to hear Reid either “fill the tree” to cut off Dodd and Feingold, or a UC agreement that prescribes amendments, debate times, and a vote schedule.

Has Hillary said anything regarding her stance on the FISA re-auth?

in 2002, when Randall Forsberg ran a write in campaign against John Kerry (for his senate seat) as a protest against his vote for the iraq war, every write in had to be perfect – including both name and address. then we had to get every polling place to count the write in votes (not something they normally do) and report them.

still with only 2 weeks and a campaign that consisted of word of mouth, emails and one web page, she got about 25,000 votes. not bad considering the constraints.

i just don’t want to do a write in unless it’s going to be counted somewhere. maybe a third party is the way to go.

2008 is done. Obama may not be Mr. Wonderful. I give him the benefit of the doubt and say he holds back because he doesn’t want to come across as a pushy black. He needs to get elected before he can lead. They all have clay feet. Even Dodd, my senior senator, got a good deal from Countrywide and he’s on the banking committee or something. We need alternatives or at the minimum something proving our power. We assume 80% of the people are with us, something professional politicians don’t go along with. How do we prove they’re with us and not them?

– so Obama COULD offer an amendment to have the District Court rule on the legality of Bush’s TSP knowing that Feinstein -a major backer of the bill and having clout as the Chairman of the Rules Cmte. and sitting on the Intelligence Cmte. – would vote ‘yea’ and probably carry a lot of those supporting the bill along with her. –

We know Specter is going to offer an amendment — it’s on the immunity point. I suspect there will be others who have amendment ideas. The dickering will be over which of them will be made pending and get votes.

When S.2248 went around in February, there were two or three competing “no immunity” options. Three I think. One to strip it outright, one to remove the cases from CA to the FISC, and one to substitute the government in place of telecoms as defendant. The effect of having so many options is that none of them gets enough votes to pass.

Long story short, this is scripted shit. The objective is to fool the voter into casting votes.

Long story short, this is scripted shit.

So who does the scripting?

cboldt, I am very grateful for your knowledge and your generous willingness to share it with us.

john in sacramento, ubetchaiam, and selise — thanks for edumacating me about the write-in process.

i’m gonna crank some chumba now…..

It really comes down to public only campaign finance, imo. How the hell we get these same critters to vote that into effect is beyond my comprehension.

– So who does the scripting? –

Majority and minority leader, committee chair and ranking member, and any Senator with a particularly strong interest is involved in writing the script. Those interminable quorum calls? The script writers are negotiating.

Once in awhile there is unscripted action on the Senate floor. Maybe happens 5 days per year. Usually, the unscripted part is brief, rarely is it exciting. When the situation becomes unpredictable, both sides run for the relative comfort of the back rooms.

Long story short, this is scripted shit. The objective is to fool the voter into casting votes.

this is my conclusion on the house vote as well.

cboldt, don’t know if you’ve already seen this from chris hedges (i’ve posted the link a couple of times), but it fits right in. here are a few bits from it:

Washington has become Versailles. We are ruled, entertained and informed by courtiers. The popular media are courtiers. The Democrats, like the Republicans, are courtiers. Our pundits and experts are courtiers. We are captivated by the hollow stagecraft of political theater as we are ruthlessly stripped of power. It is smoke and mirrors, tricks and con games. We are being had.

Our Versailles was busy this past week. The Democrats passed the FISA bill, which provides immunity for the telecoms that cooperated with the National Security Agency’s illegal surveillance over the past six years. This bill, which when signed means we will never know the extent of the Bush White House’s violation of our civil liberties, is expected to be adopted by the Senate. Barack Obama has promised to sign it in the name of national security. The bill gives the U.S. government a license to eavesdrop on our phone calls and e-mails. It demolishes our right to privacy. It endangers the work of journalists, human rights workers, crusading lawyers and whistle-blowers who attempt to expose abuses the government seeks to hide. These private communications can be stored indefinitely and disseminated, not just to the U.S. government but to other governments as well. The bill, once signed into law, will make it possible for those in power to identify and silence anyone who dares to make public information that defies the official narrative.

We cannot differentiate between illusion and reality. We trust courtiers wearing face powder who deceive us in the name of journalism. We trust courtiers in our political parties who promise to fight for our interests and then pass bill after bill to further corporate fraud and abuse. We confuse how we feel about courtiers like Obama and Russert with real information, facts and knowledge. We chant in unison with Obama that we want change, we yell “yes we can,” and then stand dumbly by as he coldly votes away our civil liberties. The Democratic Party, including Obama, continues to fund the war. It refuses to impeach Bush and Cheney. It allows the government to spy on us without warrants or cause. And then it tells us it is our salvation. This is a form of collective domestic abuse. And, as so often happens in the weird pathology of victim and victimizer, we keep coming back for more.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little political cover, deserve neither liberty nor reelection. – Benjamin Franklin, if he lived today

– cboldt, I am very grateful for your knowledge and your generous willingness to share it with us. –

Thanks for tracking my comments and helping with the education process. I’m wicked impatient that way, and tend to “say it once – if you missed it, not my problem.”

I think it’s imperative for the public to see through the bullshit charade that literally ALL of the Congresspeople spew. I don’t care as much (in the general sense) whether I agree or disagree with the position they take, but I am completely intolerant of being mislead and of fence-straddling equivocation. Change the mind? No sweat, if you have a reason. But damn it, take a position and defend it.

Anyway, politicians have a bad habit of using meaningless votes as somehow standing for an expression of position. Or, in the case of FISA, “I’m really taking a strong stand” when all they are doing is taking an easy vote. Feingold’s been real up front – “I’m not doing everything possible to delay” Good on him – he’s not BSing his constituents, and yet he’s making his case in a firm way, and on the record.

We have to replace them with folks who are willing to go with public finance of campaigns. Until then corporate money will rule, and taxation without representation will continue.

All you deluded critics of the FISA Corporate Spying, are looney, conspiracy nuts and you wear tin foil hats. You are the same as 9/11 Truthers. That means you are in the Total Information Awareness Main Core Data Base. You critics, and eight million others, are available for Detention. See you in the FEMA camps.

Hatch mocked the what he called “onerous oversight provisions” included in the bill, and said those who raise the specter of unchecked executive wiretapping power “feed the delusions of those who wear tin foil hats around their house and think that 9/11 was an inside job.”

There’s this too

The Imperial Senate
by smintheus

Tacitus, writing of the first Senate meeting after the death of Augustus Caesar (Annals 1.8):

Messala Valerius further proposed that the oath of allegiance to Tiberius should be renewed yearly, and when Tiberius asked him whether it was at his bidding that he had brought forward this motion, Valerius replied that he had proposed it spontaneously, and that in whatever concerned the State he would use only his own discretion, even at the risk of offending. This was the only style of adulation which yet remained.

The pathetic and quite ridiculous record of the Roman Senate’s capitulation to imperial power is rife with analogues to the collapse of the US Congress during the last two generations in matters of national security and international affairs. And this without the Romans’ excuse that they feared for their lives.

During the Principate, the Roman Senate essentially struck a deal with successive emperors. Caesar could consolidate actual power and govern as he wished as long as Senators retained some outward signs of power and the status that went with the dignity of holding high office. The appearance of being consulted occasionally by the emperor, the public repute that came from “debating” matters of state, the feeling of importance, the Senators were willing to exchange for actual independence. Rather than try to check the emperor’s aggrandizement of power, they merely sought to be co-opted. “Deliberation” meant finding out what the commander in chief of the armies wanted and giving it to him – occasionally giving even more than he asked, just to flex the Senate’s atrophying muscles.

Any fool of a Senator who made the slightest show of actual independence was immediately undercut by his fellows. So eager were they to win the favor of Power, and so painfully aware of the network of spies that potentially knew of every word they spoke. …

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo…..204/539841

We just don’t fund folks to the level we can keep them completely honest once elected.. Seems like a lot of folks meet the Blue Dogs, AIPAC etc.. money machine on day one and never look back. (McNearny to name one)

It’s different for Presidential write ins:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-…..n=retrieve

I know I am having a hard time trying to figure out who to donate to. Blue America helps alot but I agree with you.

Ian on Lying Media…upstairs

– cboldt, don’t know if you’ve already seen this from chris hedges –

I saw it from your earlier postings (or somebody’s around these parts).

I think he’s right about the media and public shortcoming. “We cannot differentiate between illusion and reality.”

I routinely drill down into the statutory language too – there is a material and significant disconnect between what is SAID in Congress, and what they pass into law. They are liars of the first order, in things large and small. And the public is, for the most part, unaware of what is really happening.

The media is worse than “not helpful,” in that they pawn themselves off as being knowldegable and objective, and rarely are they EITHER, let alone both. But teevee and print is what people get their world view from, and they don’t really care (and I guess I support them in this) as long as they are happy enough. “Ignorance is bliss,” and I don’t mean that in a pejorative way. 80% of the people I know and meet are good hearted – and they run the complete political and knowledge spectrums.

Anyway. Glad to be of help — wish I could be of better cheer! I’m happy, but I put my faith in a higher power, and do what I can to make the world a better place.

This one “one to remove the cases from CA to the FISC” was Feinstein’s and it got 57 votes. Yeah, watching these critters in action is like watching sausage get made.

Hmmm, don’t know why my 120 is awaiting moderation. Maybe the Italian names look like something else?

“And the public is, for the most part, unaware of what is really happening.”; it’s the lack of caring by most of the public that gets to me.
But lets get real(as I think you would appreciate); when so many think evolution is just a theory and don’t understand what ‘theory’ means in the scientific world, when 44% think ‘torture is ok’(not understanding what brought the Geneva Conventions about), and so on, the government IS what is deserved.

My Letter To Obama today. Looks like the only way you can give him feedback is to go to his senate website. So my guess is he really is not looking for feedback. Oh well, at least I got it off my chest.

Mr Obama: I have been a strong supporter of you campaign and really thought you could be the one to initiate change and to turn back all the disastrous and illegal initiatives initiated by Bush and our compliant congress. This particularly the case because of your constitutional law background.

Needless to say, your position on the pending FISA bill was a extreme disappointment for me and many Americans. For me it was also your test, and you failed.

It in my mind, your decision represents the triangulation, capitulation and business as usual that has typified the behavior of the democratic majority in both chambers as our country descends slowly into fascism. Chris Dodd’s speech in the Senate today is the speech I wish you had made. I hope you have a chance to listen to it.

I really thought you were our best hope. I think that no more, and I am terribly disappointed in you. Your failure to step up sends a strong signal on this issue shows that you are not the leader our country needs.

Actually, Obama contact -fax,etc.- numbers have been posted on this site in other threads.

What broke my heart even more than Obama and Kabuki senators… is my social network that shrugs it off. Tell me not to let it get me down… it is politics. The slippery slope… well… it will change eventually or not. What does it have to do with them? And I was there myself not long ago.

3 kinds of people. Those who make things happen. Those who watch things happen. Those who ask WTF happened?

I have been calling all week leaving messages. I appreciate the details above re the vote. They go in the file! I had food poisoning last night, so today body and spirit seem to match.

Feingold said, “This is not a proud moment for America.”

Oooooo, Food poisoning. Im sorry. Just one more thing, insult to injury. Sometimes enough really is enough. I hope you feel better.

eureka at 121, around here on the local radio show, here and there i bring up public financing and how they do it in england…..90 days, certain amount of money…….done. ’course we’re a larger in area country, so the days would have to be expanded and larger amounts of money to compensate….

I will write in Feingold. Obama needs to be very careful, as I have told his campaign now numerous times, not ignore half of America who is waiting for someone to do the right thing. I won’t be giving him another dime.

Thanks, RevBev. Not a pretty sight last night. Dishraggy right now and dispirited with the disppointment. FISA was a focus I have kept up with and decided to be active with…and it really shows what a formidable fight we are in. Insult to injury is right. To all of us. Nice to come here and lean.

– This one “one to remove the cases from CA to the FISC” was Feinstein’s and it got 57 votes. –

Actually, it got 98 votes. Yep.

57 votes AGAINST, and 41 FOR

Feinstein 3919 was REJECTED Feb 12, 2008 at 12:01, on a 41-57 vote (Carper, Dodd, Inouye, Johnson, Landrieu, Lieberman, Menendez, Nelson (NE), Pryor, and Rockefeller voted NAY. Clinton and Graham did not vote)

Cheat sheet for all of the Feb Senate Votes on FISA

Pryor?

Can’t be!

Completely OT, but this story is getting interesting…

‘The death of an Israeli guard who was shot in the head during a farewell ceremony for President Sarkozy of France continued to provoke debate yesterday as the family disputed claims that he committed suicide. ‘

‘Mr Ghanan was guarding the outer perimeter of the area, positioned on a roof about 200 metres from the VIP delegation. Police said that an initial investigation revealed that he shot himself, and then fell off the roof.’
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..209639.ece

TIKRIT – A U.S. air strike on a house killed a family, including four children aged between four and 11, in the village of Samra, near the northern town of Tikrit, police said. The U.S. military said its troops had been fired at, then had seen an armed man enter the building. They called in the air strike after he did not respond to calls to come out, it said.

See, a great success! Give John McCain a pat on the back, 4 more pre-terrorists killed.

-G

Both Lincoln and Pryor today.

I took my name off his list after he voted for this piece-o-crapp bill in the House.
I got a call from one of his campaign volunteers the other evening. They were trying to convince me he has to vote sort of purple because his district is conservative – true, it is – and so he has to support the troops, yadda yadda, and I interrupted him with ‘FISA: we noticed!’ And hung up.

I recognized months ago that Obama and Clinton were both far more conservative than I am, and I’d have to hold my nose to vote for either one. I am, however, greatly disappointed that I’ll have to use a gas mask to vote for the D this year.
I expect better from Democrats.
Especially from a nominal Democrat who was a con law professor and should damned well know what this law does. (Excuse the shouting, I’m ticked at him. Useful alternatives wanted, please.)

Oh, and Chris Dodd Fucking ROCKS!!!!!!

;~P

I won’t be giving him another dime.

I’ve never given to Obama. That said, anyone besides me going broke on all these donations? It’s going to catch up to us in the struggling middle class. I donate to MoveOn, ACLU, FDL, Save the Internet, ActBlue, Dodd, John Edwards, Donna Edwards, John Laesch, ……

BushCo is leaving us with too little money to donate as we’d like. Perfect.

Blande, too

Fainting couch, please

My Cinderella story Fresno State bulldogs just won the College Baseball world series. Breaking almost every record in the series to do it.

I loaded the doddpod with about three years worth today… well I didn’t load it, but i made some pretty cool suggestions

ACitizen is more of a troll. It’s been badmouthing D candidates since it arrived. Like some of the others who comment, the mouth and the heart don’t match, and it shows.

I look at it like buying lotto tickets for a chance at health care I cannot afford. *sigh*

barry is owned by the rockefellers. as is hillary. as is mccain.

that is all you need to know about amerikan politics.

FEMA Camps? So we get poison and torture? What a deal! >s

I’ve come to expect nothing less from “Don’t know how to Give ‘Em Hell” Harry. He’s absolutely the worst tactician I’ve ever seen. He wanted FISA just as much as the rest of the leadership in the House — after all, he was read into the program in 2005 as a member of the Gang of Eight.

Check out this graph….

http://cryptogon.com/?p=1597

Thanks PJ.

Secular humanist, Islamohomo propaganda.

-G

Jackie, that was for that incredible graph.

-G

and here i thought you were giving us some snark to break the gloom.

146===oh bonger, i just looooove you…………you can be my other brother.
http://www.chrisdodd.com/doddpod

songs that were on chris dodd’s ipod when he announced his candidacy, for real, i wrote a few down last year when i first went to the site….
relax-frankie goes to hollywood
bobby darin, many…..
cuz-bruce song, don’t remember which one, i know them all, can’t remember, i just wrote cuz.
into the mystic-van morrison, one of my faves
under pressure-david bowie, this one cracked me up.
a pirate looks at forty-jimmy buffet, everyone should listen to this song, another fave.

i wish i would have copied the entire list, it was incredible, an audiophile.

i wondered if he was thinking about and doing the same kinds of things i was when i needed to hear these songs…..the same frame of mind even though our responsibilities are so different…any person that has these on his list goes to great depths of feeling and thought, i thought.
so, that’s who i voted for…..kucinich right behind him.

===============

boo, i left you a few comments at the dave obey thread………….

and, ian, so, your post, while reading how the media lies, i was reading how the media lies? loaded it, glanced, didn’t read the comments yet, and it’s gonnnnnnnnne.

I’ve come to expect nothing less from “Don’t know how to Give ‘Em Head Hell” Harry

Fixed

Bet that family and community will hate America forever. I would. Imagine.

707.

-G

Apparently minutely factually challenged.

Ian, being the honorable one, pulled it.

;(

Smile for the camera…
‘A new generation of intelligent CCTV cameras that can hear as well as see will be able to alert police to crimes in progress by recognising clues such as a person running or the sound of a scream.’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new…..-hear.html

“Baby terrorists”

(doonesbury: 1982/08/26)

I have a couple of suggestions.

Jane, are you listening? Stop wasting money on Stainy Whore – we can’t hurt him this election cycle and he’s laughing at us because of it. Spend the money robo-calling and running ads for/against people in the Senate where we still have a minute chance at making a difference.

Second, big corporations don’t like boycotts. We should boycott all of the telecoms who participated in the spying. I know Qwest did not, and got punished. I believe Sprint/Embarq did not either. I know CREDO Mobile didn’t either – and they have a campaign going where they’ll give you a good phone and pay your early cancellation fees.

Transfer all your phones to companies that did NOT spy on us. That message will be heard, louder and clearer than anything we can do to Hoyer and his crew right at the moment.

Oh yes, I’ve gotten to the point where I delete lots of emails because I know it will be a solicitation for money. Wish I could give to every cause, but reality says no. We need to be more directed. If we spread our cash out too far, nothing will be accomplished.

Thanks for the laugh, I needed it!

Obama’s support of Joe Lieberman, two years ago in the Connecticutt Senate primary was a good clue. Even after Ned Lamont won the (D) primary, Obama did’nt officially offer Lamont any support until about one week before the election, when “Holy Joe” was polling well ahead of Lamont. He didn’t want to hurt his former mentor’s (Lieberman) re-election, even though Lieberman disrespected the Democratic primary voters, and the party by ignoring the primary results and running as an Independent. All the racial hoopla about Obama makes it sound like, since he’s half-black, he’s surely “got a pair” and will waste no time in “bringing-it” to The MAN. Eh…not so much, it appears. (What’s with these calculating wussies that can’t even show up to vote? Hillary could have shown that she cares, had she voted against cloture today) What a crock of worthless polithos. Just because Obama is not as bad as McCain does not mean I will bother to vote for him.

Congratulations!

Thanks Cboldt; you are correct, I was going on what I heard Feinstein say on the floor today about the number of votes. Guess she was confused;
but in looking at your record and doing some research9just a little but it is why it took so long to post back), I cam across these items that others might find interesting:
http://www.abanet.org/poladv/whatsnew.shtml

http://emptywheel.firedoglake……iveblog-2/

http://metavid.ucsc.edu/wiki/i…..2-12-08_00

Still think an amendment to have the District Court rule on the legality would be the best we could hope for and Obama ’should’ be willing to offer such an amendment.

I would switch to CREDO in a heartbeat if they had blackberry service and got better tech. Petty, I know, but there it is.

Probably they would get it if they got a whole bunch of new subscribers…

Christy has a new post upstairs

Well, now that all companies will surely comply with every Bushco whim.. belated boycott might not be so effective, no?

The coup is almost complete.

pj. i look at acitizen how some people look at environmentalists.

too extreme for me and end up being right.

i like reading all kinds of views, so, the day we chase differing opinions away is the day i leave…….oh, wait, that’s happened a few times, i came back when it cooled down……..you gonna say that’s ok again? i’m not.

i can recall acitizen saying exactly what is happening now, repeatedly, and getting slammed for it, repeatedly, in fact, i’m surprised he isn’t gloating a little more than he is. of course he mixed it in with other crap, too, but that can’t take away from what he and others tried to warn about waaaaaaaaaaaay back a year ago……not last fall, a year and more ago……..

so, i;ll give him that and say thanks for not rubbing more noses in it.

go dodd.
go kucinich.

Let me put it as simply as I can. This FISA bill was not about security. It was not about terrorism. It was completely about self serving petty politicians, concerned only about their re-election and pathetic hold on power. If this bill was about security and terrorism, the measure could have very simply been issued by the House with all of the current provisions but immunity, and passed by the Senate in that form. It would be next to impossible in the Senate to strip immunity out after tonight’s vote; but Harry Reid could have refused to bring it to the floor until the House had done so. Neither happened. The Democratic Leadership wanted immunity. It is that simple.

Let’s assume that the Congress had passed the entire bill without immunity, what then? We know Bush threatened to veto. He might would have, but that would have meant that he was putting the country at risk to benefit phone companies that he claims did nothing wrong. Nobody but his little 20% would support that. McCain would have either supported the Democrats bill as passed or joined Bush on saying the whole bill was no good without the gold plated gift to BigPhone. He would look like an idiot either way. Obama could have benefitted from this tactical posturing and made McCain look like a rube. Protected the people and the Constitution in the process. Why didn’t he? Why didn’t the Democrats? Because they are too fucking lazy, and they just don’t give a damn about the Constitution or our privacy. They could get their precious little power play the easy way like they just have done, and not have to strain their brains and actually explain things to their constituents. Bottom line: It was all just too much hassle for the little dears.

Obama should expect to be asked about his varying positions on FISA revision at every interview and press conference he’ll participate in pre-election. He’s going to grow very weary of the topic, and he’d better come up with a better explanation. Saying that he was wrong before would lose him less support than trying to finesse an answer that downplays or denies the contradictions in his on-record positions.

My memory’s about as long as my johnson.

I can’t remember what I had for lunch yesterday.

;~P

bong at 161–so, i can sell my screen copy for big bucks on ebay?

google cache wins… sorry

I’ll give ‘em a call this week to see if they have any plans to expand service. If so, I’ll consider adding them. Your admonition is correct.

ding!

’sides, just got sissy a new mobile today – real plan, no trac-fone

black-jack, or sumthin like that.

I’ll be in mac-n-cheez (and grilled cheez) fer a while

;(

outta here, man, what a day.

heads up, more frisbees to throw tomorrow………

yeah, as much as i put into the lamont campaign (i live next door in ma), i wouldn’t with hold my vote over it. or the long list of other crappy things obama has done. today was different though.

Got some facts wrong. Can’t really complain about media spin if I won’t pull/correct when I get things wrong. In this case, it wasn’t really fixable, so I figured pulling was better, alas. Blrrrggghh.

– Let’s assume that the Congress had passed the entire bill without immunity, what then? –

One of many ways to put the screws to the totally bogus “need” for retroactive immunity. They are all insiders, and the public is outsiders. The politicians don’t trust the public. That’s a two way street. See Constitution.

Wait ’til the financial house of cards takes a tumble. Then even more of the public will see the class divisions that the politicians have nurtured for votes.

Yep.

EPu’d, I know, but I could just cry!

What has happened to this country? or, what have we allowed to happen?
You know, my mother worked on the Nuremburg Trials with Justice Jackson.
She said it was horrific hearing hours upon hours of gruesome testimony, with little or no remorse.
And she said that the ONLY, yes the ONLY THING that made it tolerable was knowing that “we” were on the side of the angels for that one.

How far we have fallen! Beelzebul all!

Yep indeed.

The importance of rejecting of the FISA bill has been dismissed as a fringey net issue. Maybe it’s time to have an organized, say, weeklong withholding of the mother’s milk of politics to the heir apparent. The net giveth, the net taketh away. Maybe then he’ll pay attention.

Boycotts can be very effective. Respond to every donation request with a reason why you won’t be giving.

If Obama wants to take a stand, he can introduce or cosponsor one of those anti-immunity amendments still.

cboldt, what was the vote on the amendment to the housing bill earlier today?

We live in Maria Cantwell’s district. She’s been confused about which party she represents for a very, very, VERY long time. It’s certainly not the Democrats.

I can only hope a progressive will step forward at some point and primary her out of office.

-S

test

redtankhouse, from your lips to God’s ear. Even if we cut off the money, he’s not going to care. He’s rolling in it.

At this point, though, Obama and his people are convinced that we’ll elect the devil we know rather than the one we don’t. I’m tired of voting for the lesser evil.

-S

Oh to be from Jersey (damn, can’t believe I said that) or Vermont, and have two senators who did the right thing.

I’ve always hated DiFi, so I’m not surprised, but I remain disappointed.

Thank you for posting the truth about the cloture vote. You are absolutely correct that the cloture vote was the REAL FISA vote.

I hope that when the final FISA vote is taken that those of us who know this truth will challenge anyone who tries to congratulate the Senators who will try to pretend that they voted against FISA. It’s the least we can do for the 15 patriots who voted NO on colture.

I agree about going after the telecoms. I really think we need to picket their offices in all of our cities. Anytime you picket a local business you usually get local media coverage. And with local media coverage you might be able to get to more people who have not been following the FISA debate.

I’ve been responding to all the email requests for donations. I sent back replies to Obama, Gore, Pelosi and today I even refused my favorite candidate, Edwards. I told them all they would not get one dime from me because of FISA.

Same for me when I got the email from dscc with their hands held out for my money.

There most certainly should be an organized demonstration of some sort at the convention in Denver.

I suggest any money anyone sends be sent to Regina in GA, to give Obama a little “fist bump” of a different kind.

.

Aw hell. Well, it’s not like we’ve been using the 4th Amendment anyway.

Bastards.

– what was the vote on the amendment to the housing bill earlier today? –

Bookmark Official Tally of Senate Votes and you’ll be able to check all of the votes, delayed by 30-90 minutes. I capture some votes faster than that – if I’m paying attention.

18:23: The Motion to Concur in the House Amendment to the Senate Amendment striking sec. 1 through Title V and Inserting Language to the Senate Amdt. to
H.R.3221 – the Housing and Economic Recovery Act, was PASSED on a
79-16 vote.

– Thanks for the correction. Not meant in a snarky way at all, but how does [the difference between being a cloture vote on the motion to proceed, vs. a cloture vote on the bill or an amendment] this change the substance? –

Obviously, it can’t change the underlying substantive bill. But it CAN (meaning possible, but not necessarily) make a big difference in how the legislative process will play out over time.

Deciding to proceed is a distinct step from voting on the bill itself, and a determined objector can cause delay at both steps. So, in order to compare what a Senator SAYS he’ll do, with what is actually done, it’s essential to understand the parliamentary process as well as examine the statutory language they are proffering, supporting, or opposing.

On the FISA bill, I think the difference is just an example of smoke and mirrors. One cloture vote, and some might say “See, there’s my strong opposition.” When in fact, strong opposition has an opportunity for further delay.

As an “at the end of the day” substantive matter, the distinction is meaningless. I believe the FISA bill will be passed. The parliamentary question is “on which day?”

I opined at the start of the week (actually, late last week, when the House was dicking around with this), that there would be one instance of cloture with rules-based timing (we’re in that one now), and one or maybe two more votes with 60 votes needed – but those 60 vote thresholds happening without invoking the cloture process with its attendant delays.

Just hearing on the news too (FauxNews), that the Senate is expected to pass FISA today.

– Please feel free to ignore. … Will there be a vote on Harry’s amendment to strip out retroactive immunity for the telecoms? –

I overlooked your question yesterday, and would have answered it then, had I seen it.

I’m not sure which, if any, amendments will be taken up for debate. Reid’s comments about what’s going to happen need to be taken with a grain of salt, but he’s said he wants a vote on an amendment that strips the part of the bill that gives retroactive immunity.

Senator Specter has a competing amendment. His is, IMO, smoke and mirrors just one layer removed. It says the government certification in support of the TSP and other surveillance alleged in the civil suit must “be supported by substantial evidence” and also empowers the court to find for the government if the court finds the surveillance to have been constitutional. Either way, the court could find for the government without expressing a conclusion as to whether or not FISA was breached.

I think there will be at least one amendment voted on, and I doubt it’ll be Specter’s. I think there will be an amendment to “Strip Title III,” which would be a clean vote against retroactive immunity, as in “Congress isn’t going to interfere in cases now underway.”

I need to correct the record … Feinstein had TWO amendments back in February, and by coincidence, one had 57 votes against, the other had 57 votes for. When she said her exclusivity language obtained 57 votes in February, that was a truthful statement.

Feinstein 3910 (90 minutes) is an attempt to match the president’s Article II power with “exclusive means” statutory language REJECTED Feb 12, 2008 at 10:18, on a 57-41 vote (Lieberman, Nelson (NE) voted NAY. Collins, Craig, Hagel, Smith, Snowe, Specter, Sununu and Voinovich voted AYE. Clinton and Graham did not vote)

Feinstein 3919 (2 hours) removes the pending civil litigation pertaining to the TSP to the FISC and defines the standard of review leading to dismissal REJECTED Feb 12, 2008 at 12:01, on a 41-57 vote (Carper, Dodd, Inouye, Johnson, Landrieu, Lieberman, Menendez, Nelson (NE), Pryor, and Rockefeller voted NAY. Clinton and Graham did not vote)

Oh — and I posted that to defend Feinstein’s statement yesterday. She said it was her exclusivity amendment that got 57 votes.

The initial conversation some distance above was on the “Remove the cases from Cali to FISC” amendment, a different Feinstein amendment, but the exchange between me and another poster naturally creates the impression that Feinstein was caught in a brazen lie. She wasn’t (at least not on the “passed with 57 votes” point) – the poster made an innocent error of associating Feinstein’s comment with the “removal” amendment.

We don’t. No one willingly surrenders power, wealth, or whatever, yet despite centuries of unchanging behavior, we keep expecting saintliness from people who obviously are not saints. Selise in one comment mentioned a third party. I think that a bit of a change for her, one brought on by events. One problem is we change our minds at different rates. Someone like me screams for action, without being too clear on what action I have in mind, while others remain persuaded it’s not that bad yet.

Blogs don’t do it. Too individually oriented. It might help if commenters were not identified and we dealt solely in ideas. We need an “Our space”. I’m not sure the form it would take, but something organized along Congressional districts and interacting might prove interesting.

There is always Ralph Nader, he probably will not get more than 3 or 4 percent of the vote, but that may be enough to make the Dino’s sit up and take notice.

Follow-up
When I called Senator Clinton’s office today the person answering did not know there was a motion to end debate let alone that Senator Clinton failed to vote. I had to explain what that was. I asked that an explanation be sent to my email.

Sub note Scotus just ruled against the ban on handguns in DC.