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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin
The FISA Cloture vote just passed. The Senate will now consider the motion to proceed with the bill, then they'll head to the bill itself (corrected procedural details, h/t and thanks to CBolt). Various motions will be put forward to strip immunity, odds are they will fail. Then a number of the 80 who voted to restrict debate will vote against FISA so they can say they were against the bill. However this was the real vote, and the rest is almost certainly nothing but kabuki for the rubes.
Obama and McCain were both absent, as was Clinton. Unimpressive, but unsurprising, though I suppose I'm disappointed by Clinton (Obama has made it clear he didn't intend to try and stop the bill.) Clinton and Obama will claim there was no point since it wasn't close. But, with their leadership, it might well have gone the other way.
The folks who actually voted for the Bill of Rights are listed below. Remember, after the debate there'll be a larger number of people who vote against this bill, but this was the real vote, and those Senators are just playing the rubes.
Vote tally here on the motion to end debate (couresy of Peterr)
Voting against Cloture
Biden (D-DE)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Wyden (D-OR)
Not Voting:
Byrd (D-WV)
Clinton (D-NY)
Kennedy (D-MA)
McCain (R-AZ)
Obama (D-IL)
*I do want to give a nod to Feingold and Dodd for being consistently on the right side of this issue. The 15 who voted against deserve to be remembered for doing so. 80 voting for means that the leadership was pushing hard, we lost significant numbers of votes from last time.
As for Obama, well, here's what he had to say:
"The bill has changed. So I don't think the security threats have changed, I think the security threats are similar. My view on FISA has always been that the issue of the phone companies per se is not one that overrides the security interests of the American people."
Regular readers of FDL and EmptyWheel will know that this is security theater and that there is no reason to believe that gutting the 4th amendment will make Americans safer, even if Obama is willing to ignore his oath to uphold the Constitution. This is a sad day, especially for those of us who believed Obama when he said he would support a filibuster against retroactive immunity.
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We tried. Well, until next time folks…
zed
looks like we have a lot Senatore=s that need to be/get replaced an hopefully over time they will be replaced one by one. Each and every one that voted for this bill is by default violating their oath to the constitution:>(
Before you get too disapointed and fired up by these donkey Senetors please digg this great Post by Ian!
DIGG
(from below)
In the February Senate votes on FISA, 29 senators voted against it. To the group who voted against cloture listed above, note these folks who changed their minds to vote YEA today:
Akaka - HI
Bingamen - NM
Cardin - MD
Dorgan - ND
Feinstein - CA
Klobuchar - MN
Levin - MI
Murray - WA
Reid - RI
Reed - NV
Stabenow - MI
Tester - MT
(Byrd and Kennedy also voted NAY in February, but did not vote today for health reasons.)
These folks need to be leaned on, as well as others like Sheldon Whitehouse, Obama, and Clinton.
Thanks Ian.
We have a lot of work to do.
I could easily be wrong, but in a relative kind of way I’m impressed with Schumur’s vote. His state was hit on 9/11. In that vein Lautenberg and Menendez in NJ took risks that are much easier in a red state. Where the @#$% is Seestak? His office is definitely getting a call and an email from me tomorrow.
Done.
Thanks for the link.
nahant, Digg is telling me I got the offical Digg…
I do hope that we can now see Senator Barkey for what he is. A gutless wonder who will provide no leadership whatsover in the direction we progressives want to go.
Kmiec anybody? And if you don’t know who that is or why I mention him use teh awsome Google. I”ve been yellin’ about the SellOut Obama for over a year and…
My throat is a little hoarse so figure out the Kmiec clue on your own. As for Senator ‘Hope’….
I’ve shit him.
Where the @#$% is Seestak?
Meant Tester from Montana, sorry
Ya i caught that… Dam we did it again Neuro….. I tell you what you have the duty tonight and I will refrain until you put the digg up! Oh boy Neuro there are already six diggs:>)
That list suggests to me the leadership did some heavy leaning.
Much appreciated.
They got everyone to vote to provide cover for the ring leaders so forget the 80 we can’t target them all instead get the ring leaders.
That and we can hold off or entirely put aside giving to Obama until this plays out or we get something of equal or greater value back like National Healthcare,
But until then no cash!
Obama can beg from corporate donors like the rest of the Dems.
What? I thought Obama was supposed to levitate and walk on water to Make All Things New?
Wexler on KO now
just like clinton - that’s why they both did such a great job leading on this. /s
He did tell us he was about change.
He just didn’t finish the quote.
“the more things change, the more they stay the same”
By that measure he’s the greatest change agent around!
Listen to Senator Reid close the Senate - he states that the Housing bill won’t be taken up again until after the Fourth of July recess.
Big change from his previous expression of Housing having priority over FISA and the Supplemental Appropriations.
I can also say, having watched this clown make a hundred or so promises and threats, that the threat to stay in session ’til Saturday is bluster.
Nah. Just uphold his current oath and assume the leadership position a nomination provides.
Anyway, for now, no more lunch money for Obama from this progressive.
OK nahant whatever works
In case I stray away from the computer, give me 10 minutes to get the Digg in, then if I haven’t, fire away
obama, a lawyer and constitutional scholar/professor not standing up for the constitution is like someone working at planned parenthood agreeing with abstinence only sex education.
While I doubt Clinton would have done otherwise if she were the nominee, she is in a bind — if she were to come out strongly against it when Obama has said he’s for it, she’d be vilified for undercutting him and not being a good unity person. Right now Clinton is in “I will do whatever Obama asks so I cannot be blamed if he does not win” mode.
Naw, just uphold his oath and defend the Constitution. Turns out this is too much to ask of all but a small handful of Congressional Democrats.
Wexler arguing McCain does NOT have good credentials on security issues
For all the progress we’ve made, it’s a good gauge for how politically weak liberals still are. It will take a miracle to get Dems to strip out the retroactive immunity provision. If we could just do that, we could depend on George Boosh to veto the abomination.
Really disappointing news. And beyond sad that neither Clinton nor Obama nor McCain felt this was important enough to vote on.
– The FISA Cloture vote just passed. This limits debate to 30 hours, then the bill will be voted on. –
NO
The cloture vote was to limit debate on the question “Should we proceed to the consideration of FISA?” After 30 hours, the vote will change the FISA bill from “not pending” to “pending.”
AFTER that, and ONLY after that, can the Senate vote “on the bill” itself.
yep.
obama is about the change that means a change of bosses, but not a change in the system.
clinton promised to fight, but was only ever willing to fight for herself.
Barry The Privacy Slayer could have stood up last Friday — and today — for the Constitution. Instead, he lay down for those seeking to destroy the Fourth Amendment and replace it with corporate immunity — as well as immunity for the Bushies and Dem “leaders” who were complicit in massive and sustained violations of criminal law.
For this, Barry — the former Constitutional Law lecturer — deserves our lasting contempt. His naked ambition compels the Smiling Suit to seek the highest Federal elected office sworn to uphold the Constitution. His choices demonstrate he will corrode the Constitution in pursuit of Power.
What a vile, cynical man.
I do not have words to describe my contempt and revulsion for Barry and the other ambitious Federal pols who gut the Constitution so they may feast with Power. He is a willing servant of the megacorps who seek to overthrow democracy infavor of oligarchy. His actions re FISA are despicable: so is he.
What kind of leaning? Given how the GOP is polling right now just what Dem senator needs the leaderships help?
What Dem Senator with Presidential ambitions ( I think all Senators think they should be President) wants to piss us off seeing how much cash we raised for Obama?
Do the Democrats think that we are a nice, forgiving bunch, that does not hold grudges?
The Democrats do realize that thanks to Bush the next 2 years of the economy if we are lucky are going to suck. The Dems will need every friend they can get or they can repeat the bad parts of Carter’s Presidency!
I hate to tell everyone I told you so. . .
but I will anyway.
Had him pegged years ago.
won’t there be some amendments first?
You are on DUTY…. Neuro and I will back you up:>)
Ian, this makes it sound like they are now about to debate the FISA bill itself. But according to cboldt in the previous thread, they are now about to debate the motion to proceed, i.e., “Should we proceed to the consideration of H.R.6034?” Only after that passes can debate on the FISA bill begin and there must then be another cloture vote to limit that debate.
Correct? (Granted, it’s a distinction without much difference at this point, unless a bunch of people do something really surprising.)
linky?
We have a government whose workings are utterly opaque to even the well-informed citizen.
And that’s just Congress. There are opacities within opacities over in the Executive Branch.
And we think we have a representative democracy?
I need a Don’t Blame Me, I voted For Kucinich t-shirt. *s
Thanks for the correction. Not meant in a snarky way at all, but how does this change the substance? Apparently (second hand) Reid’s office has said that we get 30 hours then there is a vote on the bill. Does your clarification mean that after the 30 hours there could be even more debate, or is the “30 hours then we vote” essentially correct, even if there is more than one vote?
Please feel free to ignore.
Will there be a vote on Harry’s amendment to strip out retroactive immunity for the telecoms?
Do you suppose he heard from the dems on this. I thought Reid was doing a good job putting housing before FISA. What a worm.
Just you watch.
Once Hastert and McConnell are replaced as Speaker and Senate Majority Leader,
things will be different.
Your wish is my. . .
Look most of us knew he was no progressive but were willing to support him because the Republicans were so clearly worse. But when he and Congressional Democrats gratuitously trash not just core Democratic principles but Constitutional ones as well, the distinctions between Republicans and Democrats blur. It is important to remember that the Republicans couldn’t get away with this FISA deal when they were in the majority. For that we had to wait until Democrats were in control. I was willing to swallow a lot and expect little from Obama but I can not accept this. As I said earlier today, I no longer support Obama.
found my own link..
seriously though pach, this is not the place to rub our faces in it. i didn’t vote for obama - my disappointment is the pain i feel is for my country.
Aahhh. Good point.
Updated and corrected. My thanks. Obviously I need a copy of Roberts Rules on my desk. Blrrrghh.
From Reid’s staff:
“It was cloture vote on motion to proceed to debate on the bill.
Senate now has 30 hours to have a debate on FISA.”
Never saw any evidence he was either a liberal or had any spine, either. Wish you were wrong, but you aren’t.
We have to vote for Obama but we don’t have to deceive ourselves about who he is, or the wo9rk still remaining before us. That’s my point.
yes, as i recall, i got called out for saying that neither obama nor clinton were progressives not too long ago.
no. we don’t.
Forget “more and better” Democrats. We just need better Democrats. At the local, state and federal level. I actually, oddly, have a bit more hope for the House. The Senate is actually much more conservative, and it’s a lot easier to take out a Rep than a Senator.
I agree completely.
Digby had some thoughts on this earlier today.
– won’t there be some amendments first? –
– From Reid’s staff: “It was cloture vote on motion to proceed to debate on the bill. Senate now has 30 hours to have a debate on FISA.” –
It’s no wonder the public is confused, Reid’s staff is using shorthand that is naturally misleading. To be charitable, he’s probably using that shorthand to give cover to Dodd, Feingold, and others who will NOT use “all the procedural delay possible.” But he damn well knows the difference between cloture on a motion to proceed (that’s the velcro flip chart count, how many cloture motions on motions to proceed); and cloture on passage of an amendment or a bill.
There can’t be an amendment before the bill is pending. And right now, the bill is not pending. They are debating whether or not to make it pending. In Senate parlance, they are debating “the motion to proceed to the consideration of H.R.6304″
And how can we tell the difference?
How do you know a Donna Edwards from a Jay McNerney?
A Maria Cantwell from a Jon Tester or Jim Webb?
Wow. You mean all we have to do is ask Pach and he’ll link to a famous post from years gone by?!
In that case, please, please, PLEASE engage us in that classic of classics…
“Brandi” from “Talk Sex!” That is my all-time fav.
[sigh]
You’re right “we” don’t have to.
But, any vote Obama does not get will be interpreted by Republicans as support for their postions on our occupations in the Middle East, the Economy, taxes, universal health care, immigration, the environment, torture, FISA, white supremacy, and so much more…..
The Senate has an elevated sense of its own importance and is mostly made up of people who only speak to each other. IMO
Please keep that happy thought.
jo6pac
Everything is on schedule, please move along.
– Obviously I need a copy of Roberts Rules on my desk. –
Senate Rules don’t track Roberts Rules very well. In many ways they have the same function, and same general layout; but in detail they are different. And the Senate is REALLY different in that they MOST OFTEN violate their own rules by entering into unanimous consent orders. The rules say one thing, but they do something different.
They’re only weak because they want to be.
However you slice it, the fact that so many Democrats ducked on this vote is NOT a good thing.
Not for the Constitution.
Not for the Rule of Law.
Not for the Oversight of the Executive Branch.
Not for the Powers and Prerogatives of the Senate.
Not for the Democratic Party.
And most certainly not for the People of the United States of America.
It could have been stopped today, and it wasn’t. So the fight continues, as uphill as it may be.
Indeed!
forgot about that one. thanks for making me smile!
I really like Paul Krugman.
Not kidding I live in Jay McNerney neigborhood even met one on one and ask why change hos mind on the war. I received the standard it takes time to leave, he just came big from the normal dog and pony show.
jo6pac
Well put.
It’s apparent that we’ll need better Dems in congress to keep President Obama in line. Unfortunate, but true.
– However you slice it, the fact that so many Democrats ducked on this vote is NOT a good thing. –
I agree.
While I don’t take a vote to limit debate on a motion to proceed as a good proxy for a position on the underlying bill, the margin of passage is a darn good indicator of 60+ solid votes on the bill.
“Resistance is futile.”
Dodd and Feingold can make the Senate stay until Saturday, or they can get it over with tomorrow - the result will be the same, FISA passes before Sunday.
I donated to McNerny on Blue America and get email and snail mail from his campaign all the time. Makes me ill. I think they’ve spent twice as much as I donated is the only consolation.
When I click over to Digby’s and see that giant HULLABALOO…
Well, let’s just say the memories. I think Digby is the second one from the right.
– It could have been stopped today –
Sure. All it would take is 60 votes AGAINST cloture. That would have been a sign that the bill wouldn’t pass even if it was taken up.
But with the votes stacking up the way the are, roughly (even 65-30 would have been a bad omen), it’s pretty clear that the jig is up.
Sometimes people don’t turn out how you’d hope. But people who won’t even say the right things are another matter. Now Obama did say the right things on FISA, but he said the wrong things on so many things and has a record of talking tough and folding on the Senate floor. It was obvious he wasn’t a progressive, but was a centrist. It was obvious he wasn’t a leader. I’ve been saying that about him (and Clinton) for months and months and months.
Actions/words. They tell you a lot. And I think the netroots is getting better at picking candidates. We’ll be able to tell better in 2009 when see how the next class votes.
I’m NOT voting for a slick-talkin’ AssClown.
Folks say McSame will be worse. I hardly see any proof of that.
Too me there seems no limit to what Barkey is capable of doing:
Steal from the taxpayers of IL….check
Tell the nation the Clinton’s are racists…check…I mean fuck WHO are you tryin’ to kid with this bs.
Tell me I’m a racist ’cause I dont’ think The One is more than a low-info crook? Check on that.
Exhibit absolute contempt for everything the Democratic Party has tried to stand for for 60 years….yeah, check that.
Where the esteemed Senator on fire I would not deign to piss on him.
I hope they make them lose a day out of their weekend, at least. Sometimes being petty makes a point.
Even in the minority Congressional Democrats could have done a lot to oppose all of these. They didn’t. When they won (with our help) in 2006, they could have done even more. They didn’t. Instead they agreed to fund the war well into 2009, trash the 4th Amendment, bail out corporations, and endorse domestic spying.
I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape by the present discussion. A ham sandwich could beat McCain in November. The media are running around making it seem that McCain has a real chance but that’s just the propaganda line they are receiving from their corporate masters. The problem not with Obama but with us is precisely this: we will support him no matter what. This gives him exactly zero reason to pay attention to our opinion on anything.
Money. Whether you want your bills through. Whether you want your pork through. Whether you want your patronage appointments through. Esp. with a Dem pres, Dem Sen, Dem house coming up, a lot of money and power and perks are at stake. Don’t think Reid and co. won’t punish people who cross them too often. It’ll all be done quietly, but it will be done.
Cboldt, based on your understanding, the ‘motion to proceed’ WILL allow amendments to be made; I say this because of what Feinstein said today about her willingness to vote in favor of an amendment that would require the District Court to rule on the legality of of Bush’s TSP.
and after reading Obama’s latest statement about the bill, it would seem the VERY least he could do -given his statement about fighting to strip immunity out of the bill would be to introduce such an amendment.
Thanks, Peterr. One of my Senators flipped the wrong way.
I think the best strategy going forward is
(a) Support the Feingold et al amendment to strip the immunity title from the Bill. As Ian sez, chances are slim, but it is another opportunity to see who is with us on this.
(b) Support delaying the votes on the amendments (such as the one above) and the final bill.
That ain’t much, but at this point, it looks like all we’ve got.
Bob in HI
Even a centrist shouldn’t vote for, or enable, HR6304,
if that word has anything close to its real meaning.
Oh, I forgot, JoeMentum and Lindsey are centrists.
Never mind.
Dukakis had a higher lead in 88 and blew it. We’ll see. The Republicans are going to throw a huge pile at the fan and see how much winds up hitting Obama. Their only hope is to go hard negative, and they will do it.
Centrist isn’t an ideological term. It just means “center”. And the center of the Senate is very right wing.
there’s a lot of racism in this country too - including among northern dems.
For Barry The Privacy Slayer:
Mouth Full Of Shit
Anarchy
chumbawamba
I’m shocked.
From all your previous posts, I always thought you strongly supported Barack.
Where is this coming from?
– based on your understanding, the ‘motion to proceed’ WILL allow amendments to be made; I say this because of what Feinstein said today about her willingness to vote in favor of an amendment that would require the District Court to rule on the legality of of Bush’s TSP. –
After the motion to proceed is passed, the bill will be pending. There is all sorts of complex dance available here too, but the simplest version is that amendments are taken up “in order” (order can be dictated by the Majority leader, or can be negotiated by unanimous consent agreements), subjected to unlimited debate, and when there is unanimous consent to vote on an amendment, the vote is taken.
If there isn’t unanimous consent to take a vote, 16 Senators can limit debate with a cloture motion, and 60 Senators in agreement can cause debate time to be limited to 30 hours. That time limit works on a vote-by-vote basis. Theoretically, if a bill had 100 contentious amendments, it could have 101 cloture votes — 100 (1 for each) on amendments, and 1 on final passage of the bill.
What I predict will happen is some back room negotiation (probably already done), and a public pronouncement of a unanimous consent agreement to consider the following amendments (list), with XX minutes of debate for each, followed by votes.
The presence of unanimous consent means (obviously) an absence of objection to limit the right to unlimited debate. The objectors probably won’t force use of the cloture widget on any amendment, or on final passage — even though they have the right and power to do so, any one of them, solo.
I’m so happy to hear that. You have provided literally minutes of hilarity with that one…. more than mere minutes, really. My cousin, especially loves to invoke that post…
LOL. thanks for the laugh. much appreciated.
may i have another, sir:?
I don’t - and I won’t.
I’ll never vote for a Rethug.
I live in CA, where Obama will obviously win.
I’ll be writing in Dodd.
So who are you going to vote for? Or are you sitting this one out. Obama is a disappointment, but not as bad as Nancy Pelosi. Representative democracy leaves a lot to be desired and it’s getting worse as running for office gets more and more expensive. I don’t think more of the same will bring a different result in four years.
so, we have about 15 senators who were against this bill, but not enough to really fight it. and we have about 30 representatives that have fought the worst of the fisa legislation.
a year ago i didn’t know it was this bad.
You mean, the next time a Republican administration violates the Fourth Amendment? Because BushCo has made it clear that it considers the whole FIFA folderol unconstitutional, and only uses it to keep that card — getting SCOTUS to declare that there ain’t no limits on what President Imperator can snoop — in its sleeve.
They’ll be back wanting more exceptions, more immunizations. Fucking coward Dems paid the Danegeld.
kirk - in CA do write ins get counted?
it is very difficult to get write ins counted here in MA (we had a write in campaign against kerry in 2002 after he voted for the aumf).
i don’t know what i’m going to do. i’m too pissed off right now to decide.
There is a Grit TV post up above
What are you smoking man!
I want some of that. Over a year and a half ago I was banned from
OpenLeftClosedMinds because I told ‘BoneHead’ Bowers that there ‘…would not be a dime’s worth of difference between how Barkey and McSame would govern.’Banned.
‘Cause I could see the trainweck a comin’.
I understand that Kos told the teeming hordes at CheetoLand that ANY DEMOCRAT WHO SUPPORTS THE FISA ‘COMPROMISE’ MUST BE PRIMARIED…..
What’s that yellow drippy stuff all over her ugly phiz there Markos?
I will write in Clinton
Gotta go see what Drinking
for Obama,Liberally, Oakland has on their tiny minds….Blea…four years leading that group and they’re all Kool-Aided out….
Thanks for the clarification; so Obama COULD offer an amendment to have the District Court rule on the legality of Bush’s TSP knowing that Feinstein -a major backer of the bill and having clout as the Chairman of the Rules Cmte. and sitting on the Intelligence Cmte. - would vote ‘yea’ and probably carry a lot of those supporting the bill along with her.
It’s probably the best that could be hoped for.