G’morning, LHP and Mr. Rubenstein.

Len Welcome to the Lake. Grab a cup of coffee and we’ll get started

Good morning. We’re pleased that the report seems to be having an impact. Despite all the revelations of the past four years, there is still a high level of denial, and unwillingness to confront the consequences of U.S. policies on detention and interrogation.

Welcome to the Lake Mr. Rubenstein!

Good morning, LHP and welcome Mr. Rubenstein. Proof of torture is so important for whatever lies ahead. The criminals must be punished.

We are a nation in denial or apathetic affect. Not sure which. Incredibly, there are people who don’t know, or, if they do, don’t care. They have been schooled by this administration to believe that torture isn’t torture, and that whatever is done in the name of “keeping us safe” is appropriate. (I see you just commented on the denial, too.) By and large, the MSM dodges this issue as much as possible. It’s distasteful and doesn’t sell papers. How do we progress in this climate? Or, asked another way, how do we ramp up the outrage? Because, of course, this is flat out outrageous. But then you know this even better than I do. I’ll hush now.

Len, I like to know a bit about the genesis of this report. I’m a former prosecutor and the thing that struck me first was it reads very much like an expert witness report that you would use to put scientific proof into evidence at a trial.

How did the idea for doing this type of investigation and this type of report come about?

Welcome lhp and Len!

Despite all the revelations of the past four years, there is still a high level of denial, and unwillingness to confront the consequences of U.S. policies on detention and interrogation.

Bullseye!

I am so revolted by these revelations, I know I don’t keep up with new revelations as diligently as I should. Thanks to lhp, Mary, emptywheel, Christy, and many other FDLers for keeping us informed.

[1] Is it possible to make the case to the American people that we are safer without rendition and torture? That people who have information about terrorist attacks are less likely to volunteer it, because they fear the “secret police” and their methods?

[2] Somewhat off topic, but has any attempt been made to estimate the amount of tax dollars expended on rendition and torture? Might that be a way to interest people who remain in denial?

Good Morning lhp,
and greetings to Mr. Rubenstein.

Thank you for documenting these crimes. Is it possible that we will see anyone brought to justice here?

Okay. I registered on your site, Mr. Rubenstein and look forward to reading the report.

It’s nice to be part of the conversation. Accountability has been a tremendous issue. It’s not just that, for the most part, cases have been brought against only the lowest level people, but that we still don’t have a good record of what happened, who authorized and knew about all the practices at different facilities, who made efforts to stop the abuse, who allowed it to continue for so long

Good morning LHP and Len. As a culture America does not seem to value life to any great degree witness no health care, gun toting zealots, 30+ million living in poverty, 750 $billion a year in weaponry, genetically altered foods, highest incarceration rate in the world and of course the ubiquitous police beatings and torture in our prisons. Do you think that the debacles at guantanamo and abu grahib, just to name two places, are an natural outgrowth of America’s culture?

Welcome Dr. Rubenstein. I heard someone from your group on Air America (on Rachel Maddow) about a week ago. Congratulations and thanks for the immensely important work you are doing.

It is so hard to deal with the deniers in this nation. So far, we’ve had to confront them with memos and documents, but now it the real stories of real people.

It’s very easy to make the case that we’re safer without rendition and torture. There are a few key points.
1. The reputation of the US has suffered enormously in the world, and that makes people less willing to cooperate and share information.
2. People recruiting terrorists use the acts of the US as a tool to bringing people in.
3. As so many experienced interrogators have explained, torture is not a good way of getting information — too much misinformation share. There are far better ways of gaining intelligence

The question of culture is a very complicated one I think. On the one hand, we have very popular shows like 24 that glorify violence generally and torture in particular — there is even some evidence that it is popular with soldiers. Shows like that tend to reinforce the idea that the end justifies the means, and that being “tough” and patriotic means being willing to torture.

I think there are other elements of culture that point in the other direction and give us some hope. The values of human dignity, due process and other elements of our national self-image about decency are helpful in appealing to people that this conduct is wrong.

I have noticed several Administration officials trying to preemptively poison the well with respect to detainee accounts of torture and abuse by saying dismissively “well, they are trained to claim that the were abused, to damage US prestige in the world”, the thing about the methodology your group employed is that it used science to document the otherwise invisible scars left by soft tissue injuries.

I was struck by one finding involving a detainee who had suffered multiple soft tissue bruising from beatings. Likely his attackers thought that once the bruises had faded it was his word against theirs. You doctors found calcification on the bone underneath (a bone bruise) which is evidence of the repeated soft tissue injury he had reported.

it was soft a gotcha moment when I read it. In my mind’s eye, could see that playing out at a trial

Much appreciated.

One of the things that stood out for me from General Taguba’s preface was the extensive use of the passive voice:

In order for these individuals to suffer the wanton cruelty to which they were subjected, a government policy was promulgated to the field whereby the Geneva Conventions and the Uniform Code of Military Justice were disregarded. The UN Convention Against Torture was indiscriminately ignored. And the healing professions, including physicians and psychologists, became complicit in the willful infliction of harm against those the Hippocratic Oath demands they protect.

You are a lawyer, and so I have to ask: what’s next? You have submitted proof that crimes have been committed (that passive voice again!), but where does that take us in terms of accountability?

This report makes it clear that abuse and torture have occurred (despite the Pentagon’s laughably preposterous denial — Frank Donaghue’s YouTube is great, by the way!), but how do you think we best can shape the discussion, in order to convert the anonymity of the passive voice (”policy was promulgated”) into direct address (”George W. Bush [or Donald Rumsfeld or whomever] promulgated a policy . . .”) and thus begin to hold specific individuals accountable?

Welcome to the Lake, Mr Rubenstein and thanks for all you’ve done.

Let me respond to this as well as to Barbara’s comment about how we ramp up the outrage. We think outrage will swell when people understand what we as a nation are doing to people — and while we shouldn’t torture anybody, the people we talked to were not terrorists, but people who were picked up, held, some sent to Guantanamo, and released.

On the science point, we did find physical evidence to corroborate much of what they said — burn marks from shocks, muscle injuries from suspensions, and the like. The accounts are also consistent with pictures we’re seen — and in one case with a 1200 page medical record that shows how a man who had had problems in the past but was in reasonable shape, sharted showing psychotic symtoms after the isolation, stress positions, and sleep deprivation. He hallucinated and became suicidal — all documented in the medical recods. And of course it turns out that the men’s accounts are far more credible than the general denials coming from officials

Peter, are you right on. Accountability is key, and it has to be about individuals who made the decisions, not some anonymous “they” or “officials.” Last week the Senate Armed Services Committee held a hearing and released documents that starting getting at some of these issues — who made which decision when — and it’s very clear that they were made at the highest level, Secretary of Defense, General Counsel of Defense Department, and increasing evidence of White House involvement. But politicians remain reluctant to pursue this too far, and while both Obama and McCain have opposed torture, it’s not clear that either one would be willing to pursue accountability even in the sense of opening up the files. So it’s up to us to keep the pressure up

This Miami Herald article by Rene Rodriguez really turned my thinking around about the low level soldiers being held responsible:

In another example of how the film looks past the borders of the photos, Morris uses an interview with Sabrina Harman to prove that the infamous photo of her grinning over the corpse of suspected terrorist Manadel al-Jamati was taken as evidence.

‘You look at the photograph, and you see her and the thumb and the dead body and you think `Monster. This is monstrous. This person is beyond the pale,’ ” Morris says. “What you don’t know is she wrote a letter to her girlfriend shortly after saying she took these pictures in order to expose the military. Her commanding officer had lied to her and said the man had died of a heart attack. She took all these pictures of the corpse — literally over a dozen pictures detailing the injuries he had received — to make it absolutely clear he had not died of a heart attack and provide evidence of what the Army was trying to cover up, which was a CIA murder.”

I was shocked to hear that the purpose of the medical care these men received in prison was the get them well enough that they could be subjected to further torture. That’s so bizarre and disgusting, it makes me puke.

I missed this comment earlier. The genesis of the report came from our sense that torture remained a big abstraction — lots of conversations about ticking bombs, about the worst of the worst, even accounts from soliders about what they’d seen, but almost nothing about what it meant for people experiencing it. That’s what we wanted to make clear, the human consequences of these policies

Welcome Mr. Rubenstein and thank you for your wonderful work.

I read your report the day it came out and thought good, this issue will finally get some media coverage especially with the preface by Major Gen. Taguba. But sadly that was not the case. Some in the media gave this story the coverage it deserved but most played it down. And now it’s all but disappeared.

You say in your comment @20:

We think outrage will swell when people understand what we as a nation are doing to people —

How will this happen if the story is no longer in the media? Do you know if anyone is formulating a strategy to get more coverage so that more people understand what happened?

In that same vein, how can we help get the word out? And were would you like to see that message targeted?

Do we email the link to our federal legislators?

We have a “spotlight” feature on this website that allows readers to send a post or thread directly to editors and reporters at various traditional media outlets.

Would that help?

How would you like to see this “swell” happen?

The medical story is actually complicated. At Guantanamo, a lot of the care was excellent — first class medical unit and hospital, consultants brought in re TB, etc. The problem comes up when medical people trying to do a good job are practicing where torture is taking place. They are in a terrible bind and even their efforts to treat people often ends up having the effect of enabling torture to continue. We don’t think there were a bunch of sadistic doctors and nurses but they were in a difficult situation. Where we think they went awry is not protesting torture, and not protesting the misuese of their medical interventions that facilited torture.
The particiaption of psychologists in interrogation is another story, since they were directly involved in advising interrogators about people’s vulnerabilities; that is complicity at an entirely different level

digg

Great minds think alike

Keeping up the outrage – that is the question a number of you raise, and it is right. We try to make sure our reports have a long shelf live, and have media coverage continue after the release. It’s always difficult.

But there are some specific things to do. For example, it would be worthwhile to write to members of the Armed Services Committees in Congress and tell them they need to have a public hearing on this, It is worth writing to the presidential campaigns and to forums where town meetings and debates are taking place to make sure these issues get attention. Letters to the editor are surprisingly useful There’s a huge tendency not to engage, and we need to do all we can to keep up attention

This was another excellent piece. It was about accountability for torture that appeared in the Baltimore Chronicle:

CRIMINALS ABOVE THE LAW:
Torturegate: Truth, But No Consequences
by Chris Floyd
Friday, 20 June 2008

http://baltimorechronicle.com/…..loyd.shtml

If a prosecutor — either civilian or military — were sufficiently motivated, could a grand jury be convened and subpoenas issued to compel the production of documents and testimony? Given the Bush administration’s track record, it’d take a helluva prosecutor to try to make that happen, of course, but is that an option?

Similarly, has PHR been contacted by any of the attorneys involved in the MCA/Gitmo detainee hearings, to try to use your study as a means for prying loose documents and memos that set the detention policies?

Good Morning Mr Rubenstein

Welcome to the Lake. And thank you for your work.

Peterr has my question – one of working with Gitmo Detainee Counsel

The willingness of the American public to believe anything that comes out of the WH as absolute fact despite the years of mendacity from bushco and the willingness to dismiss those that speak the truth as “traitors” will, until 50 years have gone by, keep the truth of the torture regime under wraps. MSM would rather discuss missing panties than missing people and tortured lives of vain celebrities rather than tortured prisoners. All the scientific evidence in the world will not mean one damn thing unless these war criminals are brought to court. And the chances of that are…..?

Ian Baruma reviews Standard Operating Procedure, by Philip Gourevitch and Erroll Morris in this month’s New York Review of Books.

While Baruma agrees that Harman and Lynndie were both victims, he makes it clear they were also a party to the terror of torture. They made choices that were not innocent; our challenge is seeing that all who participated without protest were complicit and must be held to account.

Thanks for the reference. Also a recent series in McClathy newspapers by Roy Gutman, a terrific journalist who wrote about Bosnia and much else, based on interviews with former detainees. I don’t have the link but I’m sure you can find it. One of the things that struck me, because it was consistent with what we found, is the high level of brutality at US facilities in Afghanistan, Bragram Air Force Base and Kandahar. We know very little about these places, including what is going on right now.

Mr. Rubenstein, on that fabled Day One of a Democratic presidency, what exactly can Barack Obama do to mitigate against all of this and will he, do you think. (If this is a repeat question, I apologize. The dog ate my earlier comment.)

Mr. Rubenstein, have you been personally surprised by the apparent lack of concern about holding this administration accountable for their war crimes and if so do you have an opinion about why this lack of concern is happening?

All the scientific evidence in the world will not mean one damn thing unless these war criminals are brought to court. And the chances of that are…..?

The chances of that increase, if they are first convicted in the court of public opinion. Which is why getting this information the most exposure we can, is so important.

The more we talk about this, the more the MSM folks who get their story ideas from us, will come to understand that this needs more in depth coverage.

Here’s a link to the recent McClatchy series on detainees.

Here’s my list of what new president should do
1. The United States government will not torture detainees or engage in cruel and inhuman treatment — no euphemisms, no enhanced interrogation.
2. Extraordinary renditions will end.
3. On behalf of the American people I apologize to the victims of a misguided, cruel and unlawful policy; we will begin an initiative to make that apology meaningful by arranging for compensation and where needed rehabilitation services to victims.
4. I believe in the old adage that sunshine is the best disinfectant and I am going to work with Congress to establish a bipartisan commission to review all practices, and I will declassify material such as interrogation logs to enable this full investigation to take place
5. We will hold those responsible to account up the chain of command
I’ve probably left something out, but that’s a start.

The McClatchy series has been superb — we’ve talked about it quite a bit along with your report as well. It is so difficult to really wrap your mind around all of this, because there is just so much more that we don’t know about — and likely won’t until years later. Knowing that thsi Administration felt so few restrictions despite the laws and the Geneva Conventions, it is incredibly difficult to even begin to know what else may have been done in our names.

Good morning Len — welcome to FDL!

Bookmarked. Thanks.

what a great To-Do list!

That is a wonderful wish list. Simple yet effective.

The McClatchey series was wonderful. And I agree that we DON”T know what is happening now which makes your work documenting what happened in the past so important. In my opinion, if they did it in the past without consequences it stands to reason they are still doing it.

I’m glad to hear that you think letters to the editor are important. A lot of us have been doing this since the photos of Abu Ghraib first appeared so it’s nice to hear from someone like you that we aren’t spinning our wheels.

Sorry I missed this one earlier. The prosecutors know the challenges here. The administration would certainly try to stop any independnet investigation on any number of grounds, and would also fall back on legal arguments like state secrets, which they have invoked in civil suits, and would also resist declassifying key documents. There are investeigations of this kind going on in Europe and face these kinds of obstancles as well. We see that the administratoin has enormous power to obstruct.

What is perhaps most encouraging is the Supreme Court’s decision uphold the right of habeas corpus,because now it will be federal judges who decide what evidence comes in, and also can look at classified documents themselves. It is a source of hope. We are in contact with some of the lawyers representing detainees on some of these issues.

Good morning all & thank you Mr. Rubenstein for visiting the Lake. I agree with Barbara, I don’t believe the average “joe or jane” will react to this evidence, just as they don’t react when the neighbor next door beats his wife – people tend to turn a blind eye.

Armed Services Committee members’ lists, for those who like to get those fax machines, phones and emails hummin’
http://www.house.gov/hasc/list_of_members.shtml
http://armed-services.senate.gov/members.htm

I wonder if Keith would be interested in interviewing Mr. Rubenstein? And General Taguba. That would make a great contribution.

Thank you TobyWollin. I’ll make use of this info today!

Great idea! I’d like to see Moyers interview both of them too.

Are there any international organizations you can submit your report to? Philippe Sands has remarked that some European prosecutors are interested in building cases against Americans involved in torture. Have you been in contact with him or any of them?

On a different subject, do you make an effort to track excess civilian deaths in Iraq? Do you have a feel for what the numbers might be now, outside the Lancet studies?

What kind of reactions have you gotten internationally and in the medical community to this report?

I think the institutional resistance to holding people accountable for war crimes is enormous — it is such a serious action, and I think there is a fear, too, that a lot of people know too many things, signed off on too many things, and it could spiral. And of course the biggest resistance comes from those who, on the one hand, have the greatest power and may also be the most culpable.

Have you or anyone in your group been in contact with the presidential candidates?

I’ve probably left something out, but that’s a start.

I’ll say it is! Perfect and thanks.

Me too.

Wow!!! Thanks for that link. An exceptional article.

There are international organizations that are very important — and it’s very relevant that a lot of pressure on the Bush Administration has come from elsewhere. The UN Committee Agaisnt Torture, which wrote a damning report on the US, was important in giving legitimacy to the criticisms. Same with UN Special Rapporteur, an Austrian nameed Manfred Nowak. In the past, the US was pretty dismissive, but it can no longer be as other countries keep raising in diplomatic relations. And of course the prosecutions in Europe are important.

Regarding deaths in Iraq, I am not an expert on this, but the Johns Hopkins study that appeared in the Lancet was quite unfairly trashed. While Americans are understably focused on the deaths of American soldiers, Iraqi casualties are enormous, to say nothing of the 4 million displaced people.

Mr Rubenstein, have you been in contact with the numerous medical organizations & publications in this country – can they help bring this
to the attention of the medical community?

Thank you for all your hard work and thanks to Gen. Taguba for lending his voice as well.

Mr. Rubenstein, if you are still around, after what in some instances has been years of detention, hasn’t a part of the effect been to make these men very reluctant to come forward about their experiences? It seems they would live in fear of being disappeared into a similar situation again. I would think that even without other, physical effect, the mental effect of knowing you could be disappeared, because you HAVE BEEN disappeared, at any time and for years and by people not bound by any limits in their behaviour, has to have a long term effect, in and of itself.

We do share our views with both campaigns. There are other groups as well trying to make headway. Human Rights First, for example, has brought together a group of retired generals to oppose torture and restore values from the Geneva Conventions.

Those were my thoughts too.

I’m afraid that we won’t see any serious effort at accountability until the current leadership in the WH and in Congress are replaced with new leadership. And by the time we could actually accomplish this feat (if at all) I fear that people would then argue that it was too late to do anything. I guess that is why I feel it’s so important to pressure these people now but I find that even political activists who consider what’s happened to be war crimes, they are still resistant to taking this issue and running with it.

I am flat-out amazed that John McCain is not leading this endeavor. But I suppose that would involve shining bright light on the activities of his enablers. There is a kind of mobiusness to all of this, isn’t there?

I’ll respond to this one as well as to Diane’s question about medical organizations.
Regarding men coming forward, it’s absolutely true that many won’t We spoke to quite a few who wouldn’t undergo the intensive evaluations that were the heart of the study because they didn’t want to relive the experience. Many are very traumatized, and struggling to get their lives together even years after the event — that is the impact of torture. And some fear rearrest, which is why we kept everyone anonymous.

The medical community has a key role to play and we try to have groups speak out. It is difficult because many don’t see this issue as within their mandate. But the AMA did take a positions at our urging to establish a new ethical standard that doctors should not participate in interrogations on individuals. American Psychiatric Assn did the same. Unfortuntaely the American Psychological Assn, while opposed to torture, still permits its members to participate in interrogatin. There have been some outspoken leaders in the medical community, but we need more.

Has anyone asked Obama, if elected, would he be willing to investigate and pursue these matters?

Mr. Rubenstein, in addition to the group of retired generals who are speaking out on this issue do you know of any other groups that might be trying to put together a group of former politicians of all political persuasions who could start appearing on news programs to talk about this issue?

John McCain has been very concerned about the welfare of the U.S. torturers. He wrote into his Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 a clause that allows the good-faith variant of the Nuremberg defense: “I was acting in good faith on the assurance of counsel that crushing this child’s testicles on orders from the president was legal.”

I think we just have to keep at it. How long did it take to get Pinochet? Was it 30 years? People who commit war crimes can’t escape, and we just have to be dogged to continue to develop the political will to get them. I’m not saing just be patient — sooner is better — but that it can be done

I think the institutional resistance to holding people accountable for war crimes is enormous — it is such a serious action, and I think there is a fear, too, that a lot of people know too many things, signed off on too many things, and it could spiral. And of course the biggest resistance comes from those who, on the one hand, have the greatest power and may also be the most culpable.

I think this is key and why it is unlikely that Democrats, especially those on the Armed Services and Intelligence Committees, will investigate torture too closely. Most of them actively or tacitly signed off on the torture program. Remember all the to-ing and fro-ing of Nancy Pelosi and Jane Harman? Well, Levin and Skelton probably can’t look at themselves in the mirror on this either.

One of the problems with the American Psychological Association’s stance has been — and continues to be — it’s close institutional, research, and working ties with military and intel operations. So much of the leadership of that group is intertwined with people who were involved, for example, in taking the SERE techniques and re-working them to be the interrogation techniques used on prisoners. And, in some cases, some of the largest outside contractors who do interrogation work for the US — at black sites and known detention centers — are in leadership roles at the APA.

That’s one of the topics we’ll likely be discussing this afternoon when we do a book salon with Amy and David Goodman from Democracy Now!, as they cover this in depth in their book. (That’s scheduled for 3 pm ET/noon PT, by the way, for folks who want to mark their calendar.)

I think we have two things going on as far as torture is concerned.

1. The use of torture is not to obtain information. it is well documented that when something is obtained through such techniques it is unreliable and cannot be used in court (for example). The purpose is more to terrorize the enemy and let them know that we will make them suffer horribly if caught. Torture is used to intimidate others.

2. We are now so accustomed to the use of language as double speak. So all you need to do is re label something et voila… it’s all good and sanitized. Healthy forests anyone? Enhanced interrogation?

In fact, these techniques are making US fear our government which is precisely the purpose. We torture in US prisons regularly as well… and have been doing it for years.

Per Chris Floyd’s articles:

Obama says that any decision to pursue “investigation” of “possibilities” of “genuine crimes” would be “an area where I would exercise judgment.” He stressed the need to draw a distinction between “really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity.” He said he would not want “my first term to be consumed by what would be perceived by Republicans as a partisan witch hunt.”

He then tied his thinking on torture, illegal wiretapping, aggressive war and all the other depredations of the Bush Regime to his stance on impeachment:

“I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings. And I’ve often said, I do not think that would be something that would be fruitful to pursue. I think impeachment should be reserved for exceptional circumstances.”

Thank you, Mr. Rubenstein. Duty calls. Well, other duty.

unfortunately Pinochet was never gotten. He effectively evaded the law and died never was he held accountable despite the world knowing he was a fascist war criminal.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

No question that we have to keep at it. I’m with you 100% on that sentiment.

There is a wonderful group called the National Religious Coalition Agaisnt Torture that is trying to have congregations discuss this. There are some terrific former officials like Alberto Mora, who was Navy General Counsel and tried to stop this stuff in its tracks (response was to keep him out of the loop).

MCain certainly has a mixed record. He takes a very strong position against torture, opposes and form of due process, inclduing habeas corpus to the detainees, agreed to a “compromise” on the Military Commissions Act that watered down definitions of war crimes, and as Barbara points out, supports immunity. Obama has a strong position but to my knowledge has not taken a position on individual accountability.

Thank you very much, Dr. Rubenstein, for being here and, most importantly, for the report. Thank you for standing up for those who don’t have a voice.

With gratitude,
For Dan,
Heather

And thank you all for your commitments and willingness to act. I’ve enjoyed this exchange

These people sell out for money. It’s hard to believe that any psychologist condones mental abuse… which is what almost ALL interrogation techniques are.

Bush will escape accountability, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolvowitz. There is no accountability for the well heeled and well connected.

Sounds like a great book salon.

So, Len what other outreach/publicity efforts does PHR have planned for this report?

Any more press conferences, panel discussions, media appearances we can plan on watching?

Signing off now. Let’s all keep up the work

Thank you for all you do, and for being here this morning

A great American tradition.

-G

Shorter Obama – ‘nothing exceptional here, move along’.

Thanks for coming this morning, Len — we really appreciate you sharing your expertise.

Thank you so much for being here, glad you couls spend the time with us.

Last comment. We’re going to try to keep up media interest — talk shows, perhaps a congressional briefing, whatever we can to bring this to the public. Ideas welcome!

I should point out that, unlike physicians and psychiatrists, psychologists are not MDs. I think ethics training among MDs is weak, but as far as I know among psychologists it is non-existent.

You all feel free to go O until the next thread come sup.

The bombshell in my morning is that NYS Senate Mjority Leader and current Lt Gov Pro Tem Joe Bruno is resigning from ofice. Maybe as soon as today.

It seems the USAO NDNY has him by the short hairs.

Hi Mr. Rubenstein, I have been trying to follow the case of the Chinese Muslims, the Uighurs, in GITMO, who were designated “enemy combatants” possibly as a sop to China, since they were of ETIM (Eastern Turk. Islamic Movement and not a terrorist organization except according to Mainland China and Bush). Apparently the enemy combatant decision was reversed by an appeals court for Huzaifa Parhat, but what next? He can’t go back to China. He’ll be killed. The damage is already done and he is still in GITMO. Testimony of the lawyer:

For two hours in twenty four, the MPs shackle and lead Huzaifa to the rec area. This is a two-story chimney, about four meters square. It is his only chance to talk to another human being, or see the sun. But his rec time might be night; it might be after midnight. Weeks go by during which he never sees the sun at all. Mr. Chairman, you try talking to a man who only wants to see the sun. You will never forget the experience.
In the cell he can crouch at the door, and yell through the crack at the bottom. The fellow in the next cell may respond, or he might be curled in the fetal position, staring at the wall. Another Uighur told us of the voices in his head. The voices were getting the better of him. His foot was tapping on the floor. I don’t know what’s happened to him: he doesn’t come out of the cell to see us any more.
A letter from a third was released last December. He wondered, did someone need to commit suicide before anyone notices? A friend has a client who used to be thought of by the command as a model prisoner, well grounded, level headed. Now he has lost hope; he has lost control; he seethes with anger. His mind is wrecked by isolation.

My question is: Innocents in GITMO, minds wrecked.How do we fix this? It seems hopeless. How do we fix all these wrecked minds? How do we get them out of GITMO. How do get them compensation, as if that would make up for all this.

Mr. Rubenstein, thank you for your and your colleagues’ work at PHR.

The problem comes up when medical people trying to do a good job are practicing where torture is taking place. They are in a terrible bind and even their efforts to treat people often ends up having the effect of enabling torture to continue. We don’t think there were a bunch of sadistic doctors and nurses but they were in a difficult situation.

I’m glad to read what you have shared with us about this morning about my medical colleagues. Yet I’ve also read press accounts suggesting that at least some individual physicians appeared to have been grossly indifferent and/or even complicit in individual cases.

Even if there weren’t a bunch of sadistic doctors, even one sadistic doctor, nurse, or psychologist with a license to practice is one too many for me. Even those who were not overtly sadistic failed to place their patients’ interests first, and failed to blow the whistle on what appear to have been war crimes. I can only imagine – but don’t wish to learn – what such ethically compromised practitoners would do as medical directors asked to trade off patient health vs HMO/insurance corp profits.

Here at the Lake I’ve raised the question of how Americans can have the informaton required to identify the physicians, nurses, and psychologists who stood by and failed to act in the face of human rights crimes. At the least, I hope to have these people’s names available so patients who want to avoid “Dr. torture” can do so. At best, I’d like to see those who were complicit and “just followed orders” lose their licenses. For me, Nuremberg established that “just following orders” – or “being in a terrible bind” is not a defense.

Can you share with us whether PHR has yet had the opportunity to consider how to protect future patients from the torture practioners? Might you also describe to us any possible data sources that could allow individuals and/or state licenesure authorities to know who was complicit — even if they simply kept silent — in the torture and humand rights crimes PHR has so eloquently documented?

Oh, isn’t that a shame? Bless his heart…

The National Religious Campaign Against Torture is a great group. One of the projects they are pushing right now is this:

Show Ghosts of Abu Ghraib in your congregation
Ghosts of Abu Ghraib, an 80-minute HBO film, features the familiar and very disturbing pictures of torture at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison and raises many questions: How did torture become an accepted practice at Abu Ghraib? Did U.S. government policies make it possible? How much damage has the aftermath of Abu Ghraib had on America’s credibility as a defender of freedom and human rights around the world? Acclaimed filmmaker Rory Kennedy looks beyond the headlines to investigate the psychological and political context in which torture occurred.

In a nation-wide project called “Spotlight on Torture,” NRCAT has arranged for DVD copies of “Ghosts of Abu Ghraib” and resources for discussion to be available to 1,000 congregations during the week of October 21-28. Click here to learn more and sign-up your congregation.

rats. missed him by six minutes. I shoulda set the alarm earlier.

just a drivebuy to register…BIG PROPS and thanks….thankyou both

The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account.

IMO there is another question that remains to be answered. Why isn’t anyone willing to hold the bush administration accountable for torture and the countless other broken laws?

Or you could have been forced to stay awake all night, just to put you in the right frame of mind to talk about torture.

;)

For what?

that was funny…dark humor”g”

must go clean litterboxes 5 now……oy

Briefing for House Committee on Foreign Affairs
Subcommittee on International Organizations, Human Rights and Oversight City on the Hill or Prison on the Bay? The Mistakes of Guantanamo and the Decline of America’s Image, Part II
May 20, 2008
Testimony of Sabin Willett (lawyer for Huzaifa Parhat.)
Tip Talkleft.

Christy’s upstairs with a fresh new thread…

ill put video of babies up later hopefully

http://shaggydogfarms.com/

go take a walk,even a short one

http://health.usnews.com/artic…..min-d.html

I too would like to have a list of these “doctors” because I sure don’t want to have any of them touch a loved one of mine.

I said I signed off but one last response to this important question.
Medical personnel do need to be held accountable. There hasn’t even been an investigation.
It is very difficult to identify the people as they don’t wear identification (for fear tha t they will be targeted) and records released have all names redacted. We need an investigation and have repeatedly asked the Asst Sec of Defense for Health Affairs to conduct one. We need to keep pushing for that
There is some action in the states.
In California, there is a resolution saying that no licensed professional should engage in torture — good but has no teeth
NY state legislature has a bill that would takle license away from health professionals engaged in abuse. It has actually moved out of a committee. The sponsor is Assemblyman Richard Gottfried.
There is a dissident movement within the American Psychological Assn and one of them, Steven Reisner, is running for president on an anti-torture platform
As in other areas, we need to keep pushing. So long all

Len thank you for being here with us now, and for all that you are doing to bring truth and understanding to the fore.

Your #55 response is a most-accurate description of the present state of affairs; overweening ’self-interest’ (not ‘Blackmail’) among our current crop of Washington ‘betters’.

This dam must burst or we shall all drown in deceit and hubris, and no backwaster, anywhwere, will avoid the taint or consequence.

At some point, we shall exhaust the patience of the rest of the world and our account shall come due.

No doubt we could hurry that ‘consequence’ along by attacking Iran, which, by the perverse ‘logic’ extant in America today, would take the pressure off Bush and place it on his ‘detractors’ …

Anyway, much thanks for all of your consistently thoughtful and very useful comments.

Thank you, LHP and Len for a most informative thread.

That’s great news. I’ve been wondering why such silence from the religious community.

The Ghosts of Abu Ghraib was a riveting film that will hopefully move more people to join the rest of us in looking for answers and holding accountable all of the people responsible. The religious community can certainly help make a big impact if they mobilize.

Nobody in a position of power in the U.S. is willing to do so. But the doctrine of universal jurisdiction is still in place. If the U.S. fails to act, any nation on earth can indict. If the U.S. fails to extradite, the accused can be tried in absentia. If convicted, rewards can be posted like Bush did for bin Laden. Or people can be snatched off the street as was Eichman. There are some very angry victims who will have very long memories.

The religious community *has* been speaking out on this, but it largely has been ignored or dismissed. “Oh, the preachers are against torture,” says the editor to the reporter. “That’s a ‘Dog bites man’ story — go get me some real news.”

Sigh.

Good point Wigwam.

I think we are all, in one way or another victims, of the Bush torture program it’s just that some of us are still in denial about that fact.

A more likely scenario is that the victims will be so shattered like the Padilla, the Chinese Muslims and the victims in Naomi Klein’s shock doctrine, that they will not be able to testify in any coherent fashion. The human mind is way too fragile. And deliberately shattering the mind is just as big a crime as shattering the body. I don’t know that the courts agree.

Thanks Peter. I was hoping that someone would tell me this. The media, as always, is an impediment to an enlighted citizenry.

I agree and that’s why it’s so important for the rest of us to be their voice.

Yep..there is speculation that our local senator, Tom Libous, is going to try to do a ‘Warren Anderson’ – the other GOP senator who’s in contention is from Long Island and there is always this whole ‘upstate/downstate’ thing.

LHP

Brian Lehrer on wnyc is covering Bruno retirement.

Mr Rubenstein, thank you for your answer and your work at PHR. You and your colleagues are an inspiration.

Problems here, my comment got eaten. And error messages etc.

In response to pmorlan@118, it’s hard to be a voice for any of these people, when they simply disappear, and lawyers have had trouble corresponding with clients in the past. Don’t know what any new court ruling will do. Does anyone have faith that things will change, in regards to the “disappeared” in GITMO or any other black hole?

morning ECahn!

You have it exactly right, I think.