Last Friday I had a total meltdown about the House passage of the deeply flawed FISA bill. Presumptive presidential nominee and newly minted leader of the Democratic party Obama’s statement in support of the bill broke my heart.
My anger and depression were focused on the retroactive immunity provisions–which Christy and EW had covered extensively, so I won’t rehash it–and also on the neutering of the judges sitting over cases now pending.
In short, the bill outlines a crazy process where the Attorney General will give secret information to the judge sitting on a pending telco case. The information will mostly consist of the AG certifying that the previous certifications by prior AGs were legal, and if the judge dismisses that case on the basis of this or other information given to him in secret by the AG, the judge cannot talk about it in his opinion (I suppose other than to say he is basing his decision on secret info from the AG).
So, if the judge made a mistake of fact in reaching his decision, no appeal because the plaintiffs won’t know what that fact is. If the judge made a mistake in his analysis of the application of the law to the facts, no appeal because the plaintiffs don’t know what that analysis is.
Further, no stare decisis, no using the decision in an earlier telco case to help figure out a later case. For a legal system built around case law precedents, this is a sea change. It could make briefwriters like me obsolete.
That whole Bush v. Gore has no precedential value thingy turns out to have been a very slippery slope, eh?
So, Friday night I went home all dejected and depressed thinking I knew the worst about the new FISA bill. I was wrong.
Telcom immunity means we will never find out what happened in the PAST. OK, that’s bad. Cases that can’t be used as precedent can, over a long period of time, erode the legal system as we know it. That’s bad, too.
But changing the definition of who can be surveilled under a basket warrant to remove any requirement that the surveillance subject be a spy or a terroist or any kind of bad guy–that’s way beyond bad.
My personal guru for all things FISA, David Kris, has two posts up over at Balkinization. The first one has some definitions and basic premises. The second, made my blood run cold.
Here’s the money quote:
It is interesting to compare the pending legislation to the TSP as it may have been implemented just prior to, and just after, the January 2007 FISA Court orders. There appear to be two main differences. First, the pending legislation applies only to targets located abroad, while the January 2007 orders may have allowed surveillance of targets in the U.S. (as long as they were making international calls). Second, more importantly, the pending legislation focuses only on the target’s location (or the government’s reasonable belief about his location) not his status or conduct as a terrorist or agent of a foreign power. In other words, there is no requirement that anyone – the FISA Court or the NSA – find probable cause that the target is a terrorist or a spy before (or after) commencing surveillance. [emphasis mine]
Read the whole article. And then call your senators.
Nineteenth in a series on torture and the law
[Editor's note: This photo by takomabibelot features a banner created and designed by Firedoglake reader BonnieT of Austin, Texas, where she operates OpposeTorture.org.]




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Zed!
Pelosi is a fool, or a complicit criminal. Not sure, but she’s one or the other.
Thank you for this, loosehead. Can we have a new administration now, please?
Pelosi last Friday:
Oooh, with a taint how horrid for them. Nothing that some marketing money won’t clear up.
Uh huh. Riiight, Nancy those lawsuits would have accomplished nothing. Not one wee bit of good. However, you can I am sure expect fully funded campaigns from the Telcos, their PACs and selected very rich stockholders and employees for life.
Really? How are they going to be forced to comply after you get done gutting the fucking Constitution and everything in the Code of Federal Regulations to let then say “the Preznit Made Me Do It”?
Arrrrgh. Does it hurt any less when you quit beating your head into the wall? I wanna know.
LHP, thank you so much for explaining this stuff so laypeople like me can a) call our electeds, and b) explain it to other people who don’t have time to follow it.
You do so much good in the world, and are so generous with your time and expertise.
In the meantime, what egregious said. Is it November yet?
-S
>enter all seven of george carlins words here
looseheadprop, man I love your posts, as I do everyone here at the big lake with fire and dogs
anyway, this is promising and institefull, notive my bold;
this reminds me of the nazi criminals persued long after the war was settled
here’s the story
now my comment on your post;
man, I wish that “this has no precenetial value” thing was made clear to the american people
what the supreme court said was;
“we have no basis in law, we are deciding who is president, we are violating the constitution and we know it”
they took the “states rights” and violated them, violated the constitution
I do believe that right there is impeachable, they knew as a fact they were violating the law, the constitution and their oath to office
we have been over thrown in a silent bloodless coup visited upon us by the leagasy of reagan and the father of this despot
man, I will never get over that
haven’t read the post yet, the title scares me, but gives me hope that it will give me more ammunition to call sherrod brown again, who, all you worshipers, has not put out a statement of his vote yet…the intern prefaces with–in the past he—-yeah, well, what does he, now? no statement, said he’s been really busy and is still reading it…not good, the bad parts should stand out on their own and no more reading required for a ’nay’ statement………
my best question when i call reps and sens—how many voters have you heard say, gee, i think the telcos should get immunity? not one single one, repub or dem, who are they representing then? not the voters. i either get a laugh or silence.
>off to read the post>>>>
I will make a tee shirt that says;
“torture creates terrorists and enemies against America”
I called a mess of Senate critters today.. I was so nice, I surprised even myself.
Said:
No immunity, period.
Individual warrants on citizens wherever they might be
Leave the courts alone
Just kill the bill
Only Durbin’s office sounded positive.
Going to call each of them again tomorrow.
Also, cbolt posted this earlier today.. which was read on cspan2
.
I can’t take credit for this. I just stepped in the footprints in the snow that David Kris left for me. He did the heavy lifting. I just copied his homework
I’ve always parsed the definition of TSP as permitting targeting pf persons in the US, making international calls. The exact words used by WH spokespeople is carefully crafted, and darned consistent. I reviewed all the WH statements from Dec 2005 to August 20, 2007, and the general definition is …
People naturally presume that the terrorist is on the “outside the US” end of the call, but the WH never makes this limiting qualification. I believe the TSP targeted people located in the US, from day one.
The country is currently under the PAA, which permits all international calls to be swept up, under what amounts to a presumption that all international calls are potentially of foreign intelligence interest. Seeing as how the disclosures mandated to the FISC are pretty thin, substantively, and doubting the administration would be willing to give up ground that it had claimed for itself in the TSP, I think that any apparent protection of privacy in an international call is a statutory phantom. There is likely some construction, not really “hacked out,” that results in finding that as against the government, when you make an international call, they claim to have the right to listen.
FYI: someone put a hold on the bill (Feingold? Dodd?) but Reid once again pisses all over them and us
Per pow wow, we have until Wednesday to lobby, unless someone objects to the motion to proceed, which will push it till Friday (?) unless the person objecting to the motion caves
don’t forget Nixon’s imperial presidency and esp. cheney, who is still forging ahead with people who write “legal briefs” with no law in them.
I think immunity taints Congress. It’s Congress saying, “Oh, that law we made? Nevermind, just this once.”
What other laws are in the “nevermind” box? Any of ‘em that purport to give the people rights or power over the government, I’d say.
john, that is frightening, reid has to be unseated, he is a traitor to this country and her constitution, this is disgusting
But Joe Klein, a man whose expertise in constitutional law
and modern telecommunications technology no reasonable person will contest,
tells me that H.R. 6304 was a fair compromise,.
So, who am I to complain?
In his defense, the bad parts are buried among a lot of gobbity gook. They don’t necessarily jump out at you. Most of the bill is SOOOO dull your eyes glaze over and you start to nod off by the time you get to the scary bits
I feel as if I have been kicked in my solar plexus
and i called sherrod’s office three times today, cuz i kept forgetting another point……….and wanted a written response on every single one.
my most lethal one, i think, is that i worked for the phone company in many different departments……i knew the laws and i was low on the food chain…….middle……..can’t tell me the ones higher didn’t know……there was an entire file cabinet of regulations/laws/restrictions in the staff department, (that’s where policy is made and reviewed and enforced), when on light duty from the ’field’ i had to reorganize the filing system, so, i know who got them all, i read a little while sorting, every single one of those pieces of paper were sent to those who needed to know them…..and from working in all of those departments, i know every single department, every single regulation was sent and reminded all of the time, plus, you signed paperwork of confidentiality that stated in no uncertain terms what you can divulge and what you can’t, publicly and within the company….the levels of that were defined according to what information you had access to…i knew and know what is legal…if i knew, they knew, no way in hell they didn’t know what they were doing……..and that’s not even counting the lawyers they consulted, entire firms of lawyers…….the company i worked for had two firms. and it was a small independent.
i told them all this, and said that i was proud to work for the phone company, and that it makes me sick what they did……..that they should be held accountable, civil and criminal………they knew exactly what they were doing. and did it anyway.
as i stated earlier—and obama needs to get out of the clouds and put his feet solidly on the ground NOW.
I was wondering if someone could point me in the direction of the following: an analysis of WHY the administration wants these powers. Is it just a case of Addington and Cheney going bonkers, i.e. “we want these powers just because we can get them.”
There are lots of stories out there that this surveillance was happening prior to 9/11. They are collecting all this data, but what in fact, if anything are they doing with it? They surely didn’t stop 9/11 and the few things that they did stop had absolutely nothing to do with either terrorism nor the surveillance that stopped the so-called terrorism.
The reason I thought of this, and this slightly OT, is the fact that the GOP are trying to open up ANWR even though they have many other leases all over the place, leases to oil wells that are much easier and therefore cheaper to get oil out of. It appears that the ANWR serves the purpose of sticking it to the environmentalists, more than any rational reason. To bring the analogy back home, does this FISA business, from the administration side of things serve the same purpose, that is to stick it to the ACLU and the civil libertarians, rather than for any real rational, terrorism prevention, purpose?
Sure you can. *g* You have a talent for synthesizing – i.e., the “money quote.” And now those of us who don’t make it to Balkinization as often as we should are up to date.
Thanks. As you said, worse than we thought.
Somebody told me today that Obama will be available on Thursday to cast a vote (obviously against it b/c they already have whip count and know it will pass, so it’s safe for him to cast the “right” vote)
This all Kabuki rotating around Obama’s schedule.
conyers said nobody had the time to read “the patriot act” before they signed on
we need to tell the congressman what this bill actually says, we need to point out that this bill gives imunity to telecoms if they sell secret information to terrorists
lhp at 17–ok, i’ll hold out hope instead of holding my breath until i hear what he says……..lol…….but the obvious bad parts outta have been, nay, won’t do, right out of the gate i would think…
we need obama to honor his promise to filibuster the bill if it includes telecom immunity
and we need to show him all the other reasons this bill is rediculous
Only have one thing to say lhd…. OMG….
The Senators oath says to”support and defend the constitution”, compromise away our ten little rights, no so much.
– Per pow wow, we have until Wednesday to lobby, unless someone objects to the motion to proceed, which will push it till Friday (?) unless the person objecting to the motion caves –
There is already an objection to the motion to proceed – the cloture motion was filed to overcome that objection. I assume cloture will be invoked, what with 17 DEM Senators on the record in favor. IF (-IF-) the cloture vote is taken at the rules-prescribed time, that vote will be Wednesday a.m. 30 hours of post cloture time runs until about 4:00 p.m. Thursday (the clock runs while the Senate sleeps).
At that time, the Senate would either vote on or adopt the motion to proceed to the bill. It would at that point (and not before) become pending, amendable, and votable.
I left a slew of explanation on earlier threads, http://firedoglake.com/2008/06…..president/">here and here.
The 17 Senators who signed the cloture motion are: Whitehouse, Murray, Baucus, Johnson, Salazar, Mikulski, Rockefeller, Kohl, Casey, Inouye, Landrieu, Lincoln, Pryor, Feinstein, Carper, Lieberman, and McCaskill.
hey perris–cboldt had a bunch of great stuff about procedure in the earlier FISA thread……..
her blog is stupendous, covers senate, gave me the ammo i needed on the mccain fec violations a while back……got me on the diane rehm show to slam the ’experts’ who knew squat, or were being ignorant on purpose….
anyway, check it out.
“…more importantly, the pending legislation focuses only on the target’s location (or the government’s reasonable belief about his location) not his status or conduct as a terrorist or agent of a foreign power. In other words, there is no requirement that anyone – the FISA Court or the NSA – find probable cause that the target is a terrorist or a spy before (or after) commencing surveillance.”
___________
Really?
What about 703(c) et seq?
???
Can I have “all of the above”?
oh, cboldt–there you are, good….posted same time as me…tell them your stuff……
education is dangerous.
go baby go.
That’s one of my big, um, “peeves.” (way too wimpy a word for my feeling). That is, that all these freedom-destroying “terra-fighting” bills have been rushed through without giving anyone time to read them. It’s a tactic, and it’s been working ever since 9/11, maybe before.
It’s so obvious – why doesn’t someone stand up and say, “we aren’t voting till we have time to read the *@##%-ing bill!”
It was bad enough when the Repubs did it; why the hell are the Dems doing it, too? (wait, I’m afraid I do know the answer to that.)
I admire your effort to skewer the miserable criminal Pelosi. Is there any doubt in any one’s mind that she is a criminal conspiring with other criminals to subvert our government?
Save some bucks ’cause you will want to come West this Fall and get right up close and personal with your opinions when Miss Nancy runs for re-election.
I think she’s gonna be real unhappy.
Here’s another from Balkin refuting the propaganda filled article by Eric Lichtblau (yea, him ironically) which Hugh pointed out a few weeks ago
http://balkin.blogspot.com/200…..about.html
I will check that out
this is what I would like to see plastered all over the internet, think progress, kos, raw story
big headline like so;
FISA BILL ALLOWS TELECOMS TO SELL STATE SECRETS TO TERRORISTS!
bing, get that all over the tubes and watch them dance
So this eliminates the FISA court altogether and delegates sole discretion to the AG?
Adding a small amount of fuel to the fire, Dodd or Feingold could have delayed action last week, by demanding the bill’s first and second readings be conducted on separate days (Rule XIV). The second reading would have been today, and tomorrow would have been the earliest Reid could have moved to proceed to the bill.
Digg this post
– her blog is stupendous, –
Gender error.
The Raw Story
From Russ Feingold:
There is another issue with this entire bill, which might come back to rule this entire thing unconstitutional. In Montgomery County, Maryland, a law firm is being sued because they outsourced part of their tax work outside of the country. Because of the PAA, the client’s attorney-client privilege is being violated since the government (in this case I think it is the IRS) can listen in to any telephone calls taking place between the outsourced help in India and the law firm in Maryland. There is therefore not only a 4th amendment problem here, but conflicts with several amendments as well.
In other words, this law as well as the prior PAA create a whole slew of unintended consequences. The same goes for the fact that any time you call a customer service rep. for a credit card you get someone in Bangalore. I am sure that there a lot of much smarter people than me who can get to the bottom of this mess, but appears to me, more than anything that it is Bushco that is trying to run out the clock and get the heck out of dodge before getting caught with their pants down, just like what happened with the Supreme Court decision on Boumedine and the MCA.
Here I am cruising around the web after working all day with my nose to the grindstone and what do I found is my name front paged all over the place… .. SO glad that I found those numbers, checked them out and that people use them….
Yep, which is why Christy and EW and Bmaz and I and lots of other folks here take the time to cull out the important bits and relay them to you all, so that you can educate your congress critters AND the MSM
Obama promised to FILIBUSTER? When did that happen?
Dodd promised to filibuster, a long ways back. But Obama? That’s news to me.
No, read the “if the Court finds that–” particulars.
e.g.,
“(B) on the basis of the facts submitted by the applicant, for the United States person who is the target of the acquisition, there is probable cause to believe that the target is–”
I get more confused by the day.
the roberts alito court will be hard pressed to find anything this law “unconstitutional”
it will have to be challenged when we get them off the court, that’s not for a generation if they are not replaced by idiologues equally depraved
I think I read that he would support a filibuster – not ACTUALLY filibuster.
I believe c and l shows the documentation, I can’t find the link right now, it was a promise he made the first time around but it would still stand “if there is telecom immunity”
Sorry this is so long – I edited a bunch of it and I don’t have a link cuz it came in an email. But given the mess that our so-called Congressional process has become, maybe it is really time to take matters into our won hands.
Do Americans want to become lawmakers? Polls show that people overwhelmingly want to be empowered. The only possible empowerment tool is lawmaking. For the last 225 years, citizens have been sold on the legislative monopoly of representative government where power is wielded by their elites.
CAN AMERICANS become lawmakers? The Congress is not likely to dilute its powers by empowering the people. Therefore, the people themselves must enact a federal ballot initiative called the National Initiative for Democracy, a proposed law that…goes entirely around the U.S. government and is legal under our Constitution.
The ideological foundation of the National Initiative rests on the belief that the constituent power of the people is sovereign, and the American people, like all peoples, can govern themselves as they see fit in pursuit of their happiness and their general welfare. George Washington in 1787 said it best:
“People can decide with as much propriety on the alterations and amendments [to the Constitution] which shall be found necessary, as ourselves, for I do not conceive that we are more inspired, have more wisdom or possess more virtue than those who will come after us.”
>snip
HOW CAN AMERICAN VOTERS amend the Constitution and enact the National Initiative if Congress will not act upon it or, more than likely would oppose it? The people, using a federal ballot initiative, can go around all three branches of government to amend the Constitution. There are only two venues within the structure of our polity where constitutions, constitutional amendments, and laws can be enacted: the people or their elected representatives in government. Herein lies the problem.
The Framers in Article VII of the Constitution wrote the “Creation Article” providing procedures for the conventions of states to ratify the Constitution, which is how our government was created. They also provided procedures for federal and state government representatives to amend the Constitution in Article V, thereby perpetuating control of government by a small minority of elites. However, the Framers failed to provide procedures for “We, the people [to] ordain” alterations to the Constitution or make laws, even though they repeatedly said the people had the right to change their government as they saw fit.
“All power is originally in the People and should be exercised by them in person, if it can be done with convenience, or even with little difficulty.”
That was a statement made in 1789 by James Wilson, a Scottish scholar, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and the prime mover in securing the rapid ratification of the Constitution in Pennsylvania. George Washington appointed him an initial Associate Justice of the Supreme Court.
The conventional wisdom among many scholars holds that Article V is the only way to amend the Constitution. Article V is how the government amends the Constitution, not how the people would do it. If the people had to use Article V to amend the Constitution, they would need permission from two-thirds of the Congress and three-fourths of the state legislatures. This would mean that we, the people (the creators of our government) would have to get permission from the representatives we elected to amend the Constitution. This logic is ludicrous. The constituent power of the people, the source of all political power, cannot be subservient to the powers it creates.
James Madison had it right when, in response to an inquiry during the Constitutional Convention, he said that the people had the power to “just do it.”
The people were in fact the fountain of all power and by resorting to them, all difficulties were got over. They could alter the constitutions as they pleased.
The people can “just do it” directly amend the Constitution via a federal ballot initiative that goes around the government to establish a legal legislative process that empowers the people to thenceforward act as lawmakers on the policy issues affecting their lives independent of their elected legislators.
The precedent and the basis for the people to use a federal ballot initiative and thereby provide the people with legislative procedures to amend the Constitution and make laws is Article VII of the Constitution, which permitted our forebears in 1787 and 1788 to ratify the creation of our constitutional government. Today’s communications technology permits us to use the precedent of Article VII to ask all American citizens if they wish to be empowered as lawmakers by choosing to enact the National Initiative in an electoral process that is fair, transparent and reasonable.
Many stakeholders in the status quo perpetuate the myth that the people are not wise enough to enact laws on policies that affect their lives. Nevertheless, the people are expected to select the individuals who then make those decisions. The selection of representatives to make those decisions is considerably more difficult and made more so by the manipulations of campaigns than the people making those policy decisions directly. This myth that the people are not up to the legislative task of their own self-governance is totally discredited by the 100-year history of the people competently legislating by initiative at the state and local levels of government, and by the Swiss national experience.
If a majority of those who voted in the last presidential election vote for the National Initiative for Democracy, regardless of the views of those in government, it then becomes the law of the land. The legality of this process has been affirmed by constitutional scholars from a number of the nation’s most prestigious universities.
– Somebody told me today that Obama will be available on Thursday to cast a vote –
Assuming adherence to the rules-based time periods, the ONLY vote that can take place Thursday is the vote on the motion to proceed. “Shall the Senate proceed to the bill?” Yes or no, simple majority.
At that point, amendments will be in order. Assume there is an amendment to strip immunity. The instant there is a UC request to vote on the amendment, a Senator can object, and force a cloture motion, one day layover, followed by 30 hours of post cloture debate -on the amendment- before there would be a vote on the amendment.
I’m all for bills being posted and out there for everyone to review all the sections prior to voting… Community comments and reviews to catch these things…..
Read somewhere that John Deans called this bill “so poorly written” and leaves an opening for criminal liability … found it… John Dean sees a possible opening in the FISA bill
The only upside I see is if, by some miracle, the telecom immunity gets removed, Bush will likely veto this legislation, thereby eliminating these other crappy provisions LHP brings up.
- Tom
Gotta go run and see my Ma. Carry on, ‘pups.
here’s a quick google search
Those are for acquistions INSIDE the US of the communications of a US person when they are outside the US.
Not communications obtained outside the US of US persons just b/c they are outside the US, not communicaiton intercepted in the US of a non US person while that person is outside the US.
Linkie here
It is therefore important that Obama gets elected. By the time that this case might get to the Supremes, there needs to be a majority that does it’s job and does not wet its pants like Scalia did in Boumedine.
well, it is a promise to “support” the filibuster;
All cell conversations are technically considered to leave and re-enter the US. Cheery, yes?
Thanks; that affirms what LHP said at 22
4th Amendment
Born: 6-21-1788
Died: 6-26-2008
“I do not believe that Congress should be in the business of interfering with ongoing lawsuits and attempting to grant immunity to telecommunications companies that allegedly violated the law
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t the executive Branch give the Telecoms immunity? That was my understanding and that what they are going after is immunity for themselves.
Which covers Nancy, Rocky, and possibly Reid,Hoyer,etc.?
can anyone give me any good reason to expend one moment of effort in either support or defense of any democrat who does not seriously oppose this travesty? and i don’t mean the kabuiki of a fake “no” votes when passage is assured.
Further merely being an employee of a foreign power doesn’t make you a terrorist or spy. You could be a garbageman, a postal worker. a snowplow driver
That whole Bush v. Gore has no precedential value thingy turns out to have been a very slippery slope, eh?
Aihh! When Looseheadprop says something is worse than she thought LOOKOUT!
Precedent, Checks and Balances, Disclosure they were all the old way of practicing law. Now the law is what ever Bush says and Obama is willing to go along with.
MIGHT is winning the battle with Right.
Damn, suppose we filled the Senate Gallery tomorrow with signs that said that. In quiet protest. Is that legal?
http://www.giveemhellharry.com…..ryreid/Bvs
Reid’s blog is constantly bombarded by wingnuts. Wingnut Letters always find top billing on Reid’s “Blog”. Whats up with that?
What filibuster?
Have you not figured out the way the ‘game’ is played yet.
Layer upon layer of Kabuki.
I think there is an elephant in the room, a gorilla and nobody is seeing it, it will get the job done;
“retroactive immunity allows telecoms to sell national secrets to terrorsts and our enemies and it becomes perfectly legal”
that is the meme
Gotta run to a meeting
L8r
selise, I happen to agree with you but I promised I would not be a concern troll
obama needs to do whatever it takes to overcome this bill as far as I am concerned
wow, that was quick
I think James Carville runs Harry’s blog. Really.
I don’t want to be a wet blanket, but how is an Obama DOJ going to get around the Statute of Limitations?
That’s brilliant. Telcos can do whatever they please. They become independent deciders. If they decide to sell state’s secrets to terrists – they can. They are immune from prosecution by an act of congress.
– Thanks; that affirms what LHP said at 22 –
Not exactly.
If the only vote on Thursday is “should we take up the bill?”, what’s the big deal about having Obama there to say “Yes?”
The alternative is that Dodd/Feingold/Leahy/Obama and EVERY OTHER SENATOR agrees to waive the rules, and instead of insisting on 30 hours of post-cloture debate, or instead of insisting on the cloture vote being on Wednesday morning, agrees to take up the bill before Thursday afternoon.
Assuming the bill is FIRST taken up on Thursday afternoon (an outcome that can be forced by a determined objector), the first substantive vote can be pushed out to the weekend or later.
If there is a substantive vote on Thursday, it means an absence of will to delay to the extent provided by a simple application and adherence to the rules.
The most powerful strategic position is simply to deny the FISA amnesty consideration by the Senate.
If the ambitous orator really cared about our Republic and the Constitution, he’d be making eloquent speeches to demand the Senate never take up the FISA amnesty.
Of course, who’d expect Barry The Privacy Slayer to uphold our Constitution? Silly me – I keep expecting he’d have the passion we’d find in a Constitutional Law professor.
Oh, wait….
looseheadprop, I think we can get something viral with this bill;
“the fisa bill allows anyone to sell national security secrets and it becomes perfectly legal”
that is powerfull stuff right there, powerfull
“the fisa bill allows depraved telecom officials to track and rape your daughter and wife and it becomes perfectly legal”
something along those lines
what does holding the dems accountable for their actions have to do with being a concern troll?
agrees, as far as I am concerned if he does not stop this bill he has corrupted himself and can well do more damage then mccain since obama will have both houses voting for whatever he wants
mccain will have to get past the houses and is not likely to do much harm, obaman not so much
I just saw McBush on MSNBC at a lecturn with a sign that said, “Reform. Prosperity. Peace.”
Is that a list of things that McBush promises not to let come to pass?
because I was advocating mccain over obama if obama has corrupted himself
I believe obama will have free reign and mccain will not
I am torn to be sure
KO suggests that McCain should fire Charlie Black (a suggestion posed as a question).
Eight out of Ten Rights
Survived this Congress.
perris, what about the Supreme Court and McCain? How do WE benefit there?
ben franlin might be turning over or he might be having a wry smile
he knew it would be difficult to keep our republic, he knew
she didn’t last that long at all
lhp !!!
general question: not having parsed every word of the Bill – does it contain a specific date wrt how far back retro immunity goes ?
ya know, like September 11, 2001 (they’d be dumb enough to do it for terra, terra, terra windowdressing)
and y’all know why I’m asking
And signing statements and simply ignoring the laws, the congress and us.
elliot, I am torn so please don’t think I will actually advocate mccain, just feel betrayed
but I do not believe mccain will get a justice through who we do not approve, I do believe obama can do just that
see jan 31, 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mHHXDqcn2U
it’s just talk, I do not want mccain, it’s just I am desperate to show how betrayed I feel
forget it, I am not meaning it at all and shouldn’t have brought it up
call me concern troll and I need to stop
Richard Clarke says Black should resign
That’s right. Barkey was never a ‘constitutional law professor…’ he was….
Wait for it….
A Senior Lecturer…wait for it…wait….wait….
ON LEAVE!
Yay, Barkey bamboozles again. What a card! Barkey is the greatest. Barkey fukin’ roooooolz Dude!
Barkey gonna shit on the Constitution ’cause he seen Bush do it and it looks like….
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun!
And yes, that is the fact Obama’s no more an ex-Hahvahd Law School Professor than I am.
Sad….very sad that the ‘reality-based’ community did a flopper on the oldest kind of scam around.
The, ‘I be the Messiah!’
OK perris, now I see where you are coming from.
you did have me worried.
are you kidding me? If bush can get alito through, McCain can get his choice through. All they do at confirmations is sit and smile now.
OK, I have those moments, disregard my comment…peace
ah, well we can at least apply what we know about the house members. i will repost my list here.
Douglas Kmiec…..
You know, it’s just a reminder to me that all political candidates will let us down. I was getting so damn hopeful that someone will ride in on their horse and save us. But we’re slowing learning (I hope) that we need to save ourselves.
IANAL, obviously but IIRC, cell phones (as well as the battery phone you might use in your home) are officially considered radios and do not require even the most rudimentary warrant for interception.
It seems to my memory as if there was a SCOTUS case on this sometime back in the ’80s.
Or I might be an idiot.
Of course…just because he said horrendous, outrageous, scary things Does he want to tempt a terror attact to get his guy elected. Who knows? They are all crazy.
Maybe he wants to be there to deliver a speech on Thursday?
I caught the names of 12 of them (13 including Reid): Sheldon Whitehouse, Patty Murray, Max Baucus, Tim Johnson, Jay Rockefeller, Herb Kohl, Daniel Inouye, Blanche Lincoln, Mark Pryor, Dianne Feinstein, Lieberman, Claire McCaskill
Whitehouse is a disappointment.
McCaskill shows Obama’s true position, no matter his actual, eventual vote.
1. if obama cares so little for equality before the law and our bill of rights, what makes you think his nominations to the supreme court will have different views?
2. in theory, the dems in the senate can block supreme court nominations that are in mold of the supreme court fascist four. just as they could have done for roberts and alito but refused to.
Yes. And I really wonder about Obama expending political capital on a cause (esp in the House) that he could not win.
This has racist implications. A Citizen, I completely dissassociate myself from and object to your response to my comment. I won’t mess up this thread or LHP’s post with any further acknowledgement or response to you.
well, I’ll take Obama’s Supreme Court nominees over McCain’s any day.
You keep bringing up Kmiec’s name in relation to Senator Obama as if there is some mystical meaning to it.
Yes Kmiec is anti-abortion lawyer.
Yes he works for Ken Starr at Pepperdine
Yes he is a Catholic who has voiced his support for Obama
Yes he was in the Reagan and BushI DoJ.
So what’s your point? Do you have special insight that he is going to be the first SCOTUS nominee for an Obama Admin?
Or are you just using innuendo and trying to connect some non-existent dots?
I don’t know the answer off the top of my head and my copy of the bill is back at the office.
But I THINK it is post 9/11, but would not swear to it. It may be an assumption I added into my memory
Text of Reid’s utterance of UC agreements on Jan 31, 2008
I recorded it too, and reduced it to a short punchlist (first published at 10:33 p.m. Jan 31)
Will Mrs. McCain have a “Mrs. Alito moment” during the hearings?
Markos on KO now
KO talking to Kos about whether or not the Move effort to get Obama to step up FISA might work right now
In view of the Dem Senators’ game-playing with cloture/filibuster/release, is it too late to refocus public pressure to demanding Barry The Privacy Player and Hairball Reid refuse to allow the FISA Amnesty on the Senate Floor?
uh nope – he has the power as head of Our Party to make this go away. There is no way they did this (and did it with this speed, at this time) without his knowledge and assent
“with the fisa bill traitors in the telecom industry are allowed to sell our vital secrets and it becomes legal”
believe me, that has legs
omfg. Not again. Please. Not. Again.
cell phones in the 1980s?
It may be a small point, but I thought he attended Harvard, then taught in Chicago.
Pathetic wankers pretending they have something to say about it. Barkey has made total fools of these two.
– Maybe he want s to be there to deliver a speech on Thursday? –
I think there is a gentleman’s agreement with the “strenuous objectors” whereby they will temper their objection, and will grant consent to facilitate timing of super-majority votes on substantive points.
The objectors can stall passage of this bill past the weekend – guaranteed by simple application of the rules. If the bill isn’t stalled that far, it’s because no Senator was willing to stick out the neck that far.
That whole Bush v. Gore has no precedential value thingy turns out to have been a very slippery slope, eh?
Obama is some kind of law professor doesn’t FISA ring any alarm bells.
Markos on KO on this issue now.
Not until after the convention.
“Barry The Privacy Slayer”
i propose that the only dems in the house of representatives that deserve support from us are those who have actively fought against bad fisa legislation when it counted. by my calculation that gives 30:
more info here on the rational and the analysis.
Oh you like Joe the Liarman for SCOTUS more?
Barkey would be down with that.
Jane….
Not so much.
cboldt–at 40
pretty funny, cuz a lot of people thought i was a guy……..ha…..one of my friends said it’s because i’m more intellectual than flirty……don’t need to resort to that game unless i want to for fun….well, my accolades to you apply no matter your gender.
and i tried to link to a comment i made earlier about how we need to plant seeds to get people to start getting involved, and my browser crashed, so, hafta go and get new windows for it……..geeeeeez…….
well, maybe better lost in the back threads……….number three gin and tonic…….heavy…….no, i didn’t have to, but i chose to……..and am getting ready to listen to cracker-low……loud guitar to match my mood. i had to guess at the video, i’m on dial=up, i don’t like the lyrics, i like the guitar……..killer…….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jywZEjSiCBM
i hear people giving up, and i think, whatssa matter witchyou???? put on some loud guitar, say it sucks, and get back in it!
when i was younger, and older people would have a gripe, or situation, and i would say, what would you do if you were nineteen? they listened cuz i worked outside for the phone company and then came inside and did testing, kindof an anamoly to be able to do both…….so they liked me and listened to me……think about it, what would your attitude be? what would you do if you were nineteen? and i was adamant about it, what could you think and do if your view was all that that held? i stuck by it. and it changed a few people…….and kept me thinkin’……..cuz that was my view.
one of my friends who has known me since high school, she’s four years older, threw that back at me a few months ago…and i had to make a shift…….i knew then what i asked of them, what a leap of energies and faith i asked them to make so many years ago. and i made that leap of faith/youth again. of what is possible when you have a clean slate.
****my dad says perception is everything…….doesn’t matter your intellect, doesn’t matter your wealth, doesn’t matter your situation in life, perception is everything because that will determine WHAT YOU WILL DO. so, when you change someone’s perception, you’ve created a whole new reality for them and for you. that’s what my comment #60 in a previous thread was about……
unless we change some perceptions from the repub camp we aren’t going to change a damn thing. so, i helped shift 6 saturday, we’ll see……..and they know at least 20 others…….it multiplies.
i’ll end with that. off to get another gin and tonic for reasons i won’t get into right now. sometimes it’s the one right thing to do. and i may not comment anymore if i don’t pass the pinch test.
is it too late to refocus public pressure to demanding Barry The Privacy Player and Hairball Reid refuse to allow the FISA Amnesty on the Senate Floor?
I think that there was never a time when it wasn’t already too late.
I so like that…
Gonna steal it.
that’s not the point. it’s as glenn says:
Well, we got Olbermann and Markos babbling about the freaking idiotic “criminal liability” meme spewed last week by John Dean right now on my TeeVee. What an insane and harmful bunch of bunk, and KO throws blithely throws it out and Markos doesn’t even kill the turkey of a thought. Just blabs some pablum. People are going to give Obama slack because of this BS. Totally moronic. Jeebus.
missed the FISA portion of Kos on KO (can tivo later)
but what little I caught sure sounded like Kos covering for Obama
what did he say ?
Does anyone but me find it rather strange that one Udall voted yes and the other voted no?
I think Markos just issued a serious challenge to Obama that Obama should seriously sit up take stock of. He said that Obama probably won’t lose a lot of support (meaning voters) because the truth is the choice is either Obama or McCain. But OTOH, he will lose the intensity of his base: meaning that his image can be altered from a real change agent or just another spineless politician who is nothing to get excited about. He’s right, of course. Either Obama stands up for the Constitution or he doesn’t. If he doesn’t…
Good for Markos!
no. indeed that is similar to what glenn is calling for:
They were quire large and bulky but I do think there some cell phones in use at least by the late ’80s.
But the battery phones I know were in use and I’m fairly certain I remember correctly that there were court cases declaring them radios and that the signal was legal for the law to intercept. As always, it was a drug related case.
But just think about it. Given the way the rights have been given away for years, why would anyone assume that a cell phone was a private call. The phone is sending a signal out into the air. It’s not a landline that requires a dedicated tap specific to a location. The signal can and is intercepted.
Selise, my rep, Jackie Speier, voted against it – at least according to Megavote.
RevBev is correct
Exactly.
Too, too damn bad the GOS couldn’t keep from slobberin’ all over Barkey to begins with.
Hey!
Time for a Blogger Ethics Panel! I nominate Kos, Bowers and Marshall to moderate.
Topic:
‘That Kool-Aide has a Horrible Hangover!’
When you call those democratic congressional offices, just mention these two words to whatever staffer answers the phone: “Al Wynn”.
If they don’t know why those words matter, have them ask the Honorable Donna Edwards. She’ll explain it to them after she stops laughing.
Democrats are god damned gutless cowards. How the fuck can I vote for any of them?
– In view of the Dem Senators’ game-playing with cloture/filibuster/release, is it too late to refocus public pressure to demanding Barry The Privacy Player and Hairball Reid refuse to allow the FISA Amnesty on the Senate Floor? –
What? You’d trash their carefully scripted plan?
There is always a procedural way to kill the bill – all Reid has to do is file and make pending a poison pill amendment, and insist on passage. Cloture would be rejected on that (all GOP voting against cloture), and Reid could use the stalemate as an excuse to pull the bill from consideration.
if there is anything strange/wrong with the list, please let me know. except for donna edwards it is based on those reps who both did not vote for the paa extension in feb and voted no last week.
You may well be correct — but I should’ve phrased it differently.
Keeping FISA off the Senate floor, the Dems win. Choosing to allow FISA on the floor could let the Constitution lose.
Obama and Reid have the power to defeat FISA — or give amnesty to the telcomms.
When our freedoms and the Constitution are on the line, whose side are Obama and Reid on? Our side, or the telecomms’?
That’s the Overton window I hope to push on this. Even is we lose on FISA amnesty. Send Reid/Obama off stamped “voted against us, for the megacorps”.
Obama is my senator. His voicemail has been full every single time I called. I am pissed off to say the least.
Minor update: Should read retroactive impunity.
consider the alternatives
did she vote against the paa extension? last week’s vote was kabuki and “no” votes, on their own, don’t mean much of anything.
Will find out – Megavote also says that Speier voted against the bill to fund the war.
neuro at 117–yes, cellphones in the 80’s….early 80’s…bosses at telcos had them in their cars…..bulky, had a stand for them, could hit the buttons and just talk, like on a speakerphone…….big cheeze had one and used it repeatedly while i HAD to ride to a meeting with him….and later when he showed up on my jobs and had to sit in his car while he asked me stupid questions about the job………didn’t impress me much…….and he knew it. he should have taken the calls privately…..all minescule stuff that showed how irrelevant he was.
Remember the scene in Pulp Fiction where the Travolta character is on the phone with the drug dealer and taking the Uma Thurman character to the guy’s house?
Remember how freaked the dealer was? “Are you on a cell phone? Is this a cell phone?!? I DON’T KNOW YOU! Wrong NUMBER! Wrong NUMBER!.”
That’s cuz the phone doesn’t require a warrant to intercept the call.
correction: Obama and Reid have the power to defeat FISA — or give amnesty to the telcomms and Harry Reid
Didn’t a member of the House of Representives get in trouble because some of his voters intercepted a GOP cell phone call and he released it?
I feel betrayed. I even had an Obama sign in my yard when he ran for the senate. Now? Jeez, will ANYONE stand up to the megacorps or is it Big Brother already?
Gee. Reading that, I’d almost think Markos derived some of his income by consulting/working for the Dem party, Dem candidates, and the consultants/ advisors they hire.
Naah. Couldn’t possibly be.
coughs
the 30 on my list are not cowards. they stood up to their own leadership and won.
i wish their actions got more traction in the blogosphere.
Dam Twain your lucky you have Jackie! I have Anna Eschoo IIRC she also voted against FISA and she has been for the most part voting for the people!
It would have been quite difficult for her to vote against the PAA extension since she was only sworn into office last week.
see the links at my earlier post (linked to in the comment with the list of 30)
Filibuster. I don’t care anymore. Filibuster the POS to death.
can you say Kitchen Cabinet ??? I knew ya could :D
Whoops….
He was however a Senior Lecturer which many claim is equalevelent title but is not tenured.
So, he should understand the importance of what is at stake here.
Right?
Right?
I always go by what the first ’statement’ is out of a candidate’s campaign or mouth is and….
I’m not holding my breath for Barkey to do what the Founders and knowledgeable citizens know he must do.
I think he’s gonna do the El Foldo.
But hey…
I could be wrong.
I believe that’s McDermot of WA who was sued by Boehner and lost.
But that’s quite different from the Feds or John Law intercepting the call and listening in.
Yep – lucky. Jackie and Anna have been friends of mine for probably 30 years.
‘No more money….’
works also.
McDermott paid one million to Crybaby Boner
I’ve had a copy of the Constitution on my bedroom wall for 35 years. It may as well be in the bathroom for all the respect it gets.
Yes. Jim McDermott of Florida. From the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:
I know. I understand.
But, two words: Supreme Court
moi? in a femto-second.
DING! We have 60 hours to hammer on this. Time to start.
and cbl:
correction appreciated and accepted.
Oy. You have yet to make a case for your implications – in fact, you have yet to state what you are implying.
There is no evidence for believing that either of those people would be an Obama nominee to the SCt.
Please, give it a rest.
duh. i’m an idiot.
not last week, that was donna edwards. jackie was in april, but your point still stands. will investigate further. thanks to you and twain.
Should be Washington, not Florida.
Preview is my friend.
Preview is my friend. . .
Uh….
That is our job. We just gotta start supporting those that will and….
Stop wishing our idols would.
‘Cause they won’t. In fact that’s part of their job to run on a ‘progressive’ platform and then undermine it once in office. Suppresses the vote quite handily and keeps thing nice and smooth for the corporatists.
Guess who the foremost of these ‘fifth columnists’ is?
forgive me, preview, for I have sinned.
(((((((((((((((((((((((crickets)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Shame we can’t bring charges against Reid for this BS.
Well KO is certainly seizing upon and milking something that I think John Dean said w/o really thinking about. Dean threw it out as “what if” and KO trying to make it sound like Obama actually has some law enforcement strategy going with respect to the telcoms.
The “gov’t made me do it” defense was compelling but iffy in a civil suit. It would work MUCH better in a criminal case.
Plus as Bmaz loves to point out, The statute of Limitations for FISA is 5 years. So anything before 2004 won’t be viable once Obama takes office
are you still here ?
been burning with an inside baseball question you may be able to answer
amen!
a suggestion to front pagers for their consideration: how about a week long moritorium on anti-mcsame posts and use those slots for calling obama, reid, dodd et al. to action?
And Jerry Nadler voted against it. My hero
– are you still here ? –
Yes, wandering around the house, drinking bier, chatting with kids, listening to baseball, reading …
kirk–i didn’t get racist implications from acitizen’s ’i am the messiah’……i got that obama is selling himself as being ’the’ one and only answer, aka, christ implications, to ’what the world needs now, is love, sweet love’…..
that’s what i got from it.
but i’ve had a few gin and tonics, so, i see peace and love everywhere. and all of the possible combinations therein.
I have a law degree and have passed the bar exams in two states, but I can assure you that Obama, having been a Senior Lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School knows a heckuva lot more about Constitutional law than I ever will.
You may need to check back, not sure, but I think you missed the quote.
Supreme Court picks. I don’t think Obama will defend the Constitution. What a pile of manure our country has become.
have been wondering just what was it they promised Steny for running this for them. I believe they asked, he agreed.
he’s long coveted the Speaker’s gavel – but Madame Speaker surely wouldnt have offered that
more campaign cash ?? he’s in a very safe district and ran unopposed last cycle
support for some (gulp) equally horrendous legislation with that special Steny flavuh on it ?
what in the world did they promise him
Really? I have seen no overt evidence of that. None.
nadler voted for the paa extension in feb. which means, i think, that his vote last week was just a “safe” “no” vote and not one of conviction and courage.
hard.
GREAT Idea!!
it’s not just knowledge that counts, it’s what one does with it.
see john yoo.
I’ve sent out two alerts today to my 500 person list. Going to do the same tomorrow.
My folks are pissed and they are not going to accept this.
Ever.
Remember what Steve said:
‘Fight Back!’
Exactly.
I do not want to see John Yoo except if he is being tried for crimes against humanity!
– DING! We have 60 hours to hammer on this. Time to start. –
Just to state an assumption. By insisting on passage, I mean that the amendment has to be subjected to a straight, simple majority up or down vote. None of this sissy shit where he props up a contentious amendment and agrees to take it down if it fails to get 60 votes.
At any rate, without explaining how it works, in detail, that there is ALWAYS a way to get a bill off the Senate floor, as long as 40 Senators want to make it so.
The real question is “are there 40 Democratic Senators who want to ‘make it so’?”
The answer is revealed by passage of the bill. “No, there are not.”
– have been wondering just what was it they promised Steny for running this for them. I believe they asked, he agreed. –
I have no idea of the details. My general impression is that the whole lot of them enjoy the charade of good cop bad cop that is foisted on a gullible public. As long as you pick a team, they can mesmerize you.
Screw the whole lot of ‘em. That’s my motto.
Why did they agree to sunset the bill in 2012? Just in time for the new elections. Some times I wonder if Democrats have any brains at all.
Weyant’s World is right on topic, for those who like their commentary in visual terms.
Heh. I’m still stuck on why the sun rose. /s
Thank you, dmac! Clap clap clap!
And yes, I’ve felt pretty down, too, but you are right.
The initial GOP proposal was to sunset in 2013, pushing it past the term of whoever wins in November 2008.
I’d guess that Steny countered with 2011, and they “compromised” on 2012.
That Steny is such a negotiator.
Steny was either chosen or volunteered to carry the water on this because as he’s been holding onto that seat for the last 27 years and will likely cruise to re-election as usual, he’s more or less invulnerable, and also of course, he is the House Majority Leader.
The Democratic powers-that-be presumed this would provide all the safe cover they needed to kill the 4th Amendment.
The gameplan was to quote Speaker Granny Nanny: “Take everything off the table!” that the Repugs might possibly try to use against the Democrats in the 2008 Elections.
As I’ve said more than once, their reasoning is “Power trumps Principle!
OT is anyone looking at c-span REp Michele Bachmann shilling for oil co.
cboldt, if I’m understanding correctly, even though FISA has come up on the Senate calendar, Reid still has the power to keep the FISA amnesty from proceeding onto the Senate floor. If this is correct, the issue is not what will get the bill off the Senate floor; rather, the strategic issue is simply denying the bill access to the Senate floor.
If OTOH I’ve got Reid’s potential powers and the powers of Senate procedural rules wrong, I’d be grateful for your correction.
Thanks! (and I hope your team wins!)
thanks for the reply. agree, agree, agree
and although it has nothing to do with the fallout ALL of us will feel soon – was just personally curious as to what he was promised for it. not the sharpest tool in the box, but a deal maker and he got something for it
not giving up – considering a change in tactics. imo, a serious reconsideration is called for.
– nadler voted for the paa extension in feb. which means, i think, that his vote last week was just a “safe” “no” vote and not one of conviction and courage. –
Votes for the extension were instrumental in stifling House passage of the Senate’s S.2248. I wouldn’t take a vote on the extension as anything more than buying time, but it could be taken as a rejection of retroactive immunity, etc.
OTOH, the public ought to be having a WTF moment, looking at the big shift in the House, between March and now. The House rejected the Senate bill, and now, by a HUGE shift, has passed something else.
I’m convinced that they do not understand what they are voting on. They are opportunistic dumb-asses, working to preserve their positions of status.
I’ll give you that
pitchforks and (eco-friendly) torches?
Off topic…
George Carlin speaking truth to power as usual…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KReZyAZLI0
I hope you and I both get front row seats for that
If we ever give up, they win. That’s what they want – for us to feel defeated and stop bothering them. I won’t do it. They may take our country but I won’t give it to them.
damn straight
Yes. What a sparking negotiation that must have been. Fought the good fight. To get the fucking thing to expire right before the next Presidential election. Brilliant. Just. Shoot. Me.
– even though FISA has come up on the Senate calendar, Reid still has the power to keep the FISA amnesty from proceeding onto the Senate floor. If this is correct, the issue is not what will get the bill off the Senate floor; rather, the strategic issue is simply denying the bill access to the Senate floor. –
No. He’s already moved that the Senate proceed to it, then filed a cloture motion to limit debate on the motion to proceed. He can’t withdraw the cloture motion except by UC, and the GOP won’t give that. And I seriously doubt he can keep enough of the DEM players from passing cloture, and voting to proceed to the bill. So, as of Thursday afternoon (latest, earlier if ALL the Senators, including self-proclaimed objectors agree to skip the time periods demanded by the rules), the bill will be pending.
He has to kill it from that vantage point, and he can. But he won’t.
If this is correct, the issue is not what will get the bill off the Senate floor; rather, the strategic issue is simply denying the bill access to the Senate floor.
My parliamentary-impaired belief is that not only can Reid keep the bill from coming to the floor, but so could have Nancy Pelosi.
She didn’t – he won’t.
Even when Reid has the cover of an anonymous hold having been put on the bill, he’s determined to bring it forward.
Should I really be reduced to rooting for the team which has only half its players in the tank because the other team has *all* of its players bought and paid for?
i think the blocking of restore act version 1 in the house on, iirc, oct 17, 2007 was the big deal – where some members of the progressive caucus and others (like holt) were able to challenge their own leadership and force modifications to improve the bill before it was brought to the floor for a vote. sadly, since that was done during a whip count and not a floor vote, we don’t know who (except for holt) was active in this rejection the house leadership legislation.
i’m using the paa extension vote in feb as a kind of proxy – because we really can’t tell anything from a “no” vote last week. too much kabuki.
Well the Long Island delegation voted for the Bill last week. Gag me
Me too. Why 2012 instead of 2009?
elliott and twain.
i’m considering shifting my focus to those dems who fight this, and withholding my support from all others. but i’m open to alternative tactics. at this point i am convinced that continuing with the same old support will get us no where good.
sigh. no one is forcing them to ‘capitulate.’ they are simply doing what they affirmatively want to do. They are having to work a little harder on the kabuki aspects, but that is the extent of their response to grassroots pressure.
for those who are passing through the Denial, Anger and Bargaining stages
http://changingminds.org/disci…..r_ross.htm
in yr relationship with the (D) Party, there is always Arthur Silbur, who has some extended thoughts on the whole FISA story:
http://powerofnarrative.blogsp…..-evil.html
working for the (D) is not ‘fighting’, it is enabling the enablers, it is holding the coat of the guy who is holding the coat of the murderer.
get off the hamster wheel, withdraw support, work on new formations, that is what they fear most, that is also a big taboo, apparently.
why is that? who benefits? Steny Hoyer, thats who.
A new strategy? I believe that’s what Howie & Co are working on with the StrangeBedFellows ad.
Donate here to help out.
Running ads against Steny Hoyer and Bush Dogs Chris Carney and John Barrow will be a sight to see.
cboldt, I’m hoping to post on this. I’m very grateful for your answer. Could you lead us through the steps Reid could take from the vantage point you have led us to?
Thanks for your time and knowledge.
– i’m using the paa extension vote in feb as a kind of proxy –
I’m comparing March 14, 2008 passage of H.R.3773 with passage last week of H.R.6304. That’s the big shift that is causing me a “WTF” reaction. I think most of the players who shifted, were unable to objectively understand the bill they passed last week.
The calculus wasn’t “is this good law,” it was “will this screw me out of office.” And, concluding that the new statutory language was of sufficient opacity, they figured (correctly) that they could either lie about the effect of the law, or they could admit that they didn’t understand it, but (as Specter said today), in a contest between civil rights and risk from terrorists, civil rights give way. Viola. QED. Whatcha gonna do? Call ghostbusters?
Nope. Nor should any of us. Irrepsective of party, we all deserve Congresscritters who honor their Oaths to uphold and defend the Constitution: and who represent us, not the megacorps.
New Grit TV post up
what the house did last week was not only an outrage because of the content of their fisa legislation (as if that isn’t enough) – it was an explicit rejection of the commitment they made to open government.
read the press release from nancy pelosi (on behalf of reid and obama also) on jan 18, 2006 and tell me that how this bill was pushed through the house with less than 24 hours to review has anything to do with the commitments made to us.
Would you buy a used constitution from this man?
“OK, sure, it’s missing some of the manufacturer’s original equipment, like the Fourth Amendment, but it’s still really nifty . . . and I can let you have it for a great price.”
I don’t type purdy so maybe you had difficulty picking up – I am waaaay past ‘denial’
I believe this is nothing but CYA for Dem Leadership of their complicity in Bush/Cheney lawlessness period. Obama is going along period
and I plan on working for nothing but vetted progressives in the General period.
on top of everything they are stoopid and unimaginative – there were other ways to beat this back – especially in a Dem Tsunami year – but they didn’t exercise any of those – might lead some dfh to think their complicity is more than just that of silence :D
peter, i support what glenn et al are doing. in fact, i put the donation badge on my tiny webpage immediately when the campaign was announce. something that fdl has yet to do.
but that is not what i am thinking about here…. i am considering an explicit decision to withhold support from all dems who do not support my core values.
I don’t have time to read all the comments so this may have already been mentioned–but my overall view of what I’ve read over the last years is that what we have in power is very, very sinister. The Democrats may have good reason not to stand up to these goons. Whatever may happen the Democrats will be blamed. VERY SINISTER, as in watch out Iran Sinister.
If Democrats come to power we may have a chance. (BIG IF)
Phoenix Woman, two thread up…
Be sure and digg LHP’s post on your way out.
tejan, thanks, my wit and wisdom are often missed due to it’s subtlety…..unless you see all of my comments, it doesn’t all add up…….ha…….lighten up and pay attention to what my dad said about perception at my earlier comment…….was the best lesson i ever learned that applies to everything…….he is a retired corporate accountant……..was in charge of the white paper division for an international paper company, forecasting and budgeting, imagine that….never brought work home except to explain how commerce works………smart and kind and wise guy. with a sense of humor, an fdr democrat….saved jobs wherever he could, they ended up closing plants after he left……now retired..80 percent of their time is spent volunteering making money for charities that directly give the money to the cause, outside the box, not black tie events, he will no longer wear a suit…..earth day tshirts and shorts…….even in their hobbies they find ways to raise funds for their causes…….exceptional, and he says perception determines WHAT YOU DO….in all things, and to check your perceptions all the time…so, watch your own perception, and when it’s not so good, put on some loud guitar, take a walk in new woods somewhere, drive somewhere you haven’t been before, eat pie at the local diner, and then get back in it…….hard.
thanks for noticing.
i agree with your analysis. but the goal of my analysis is something different – it is to distinguish those dems who will vote “no” only when it is politically safe (they have permission from their corrupt leadership) from those dems who are willing to stand up to their leadership on this issue.
It expires right before the election so Republicans can use it as a political bludgeon.
How stupid is that?
Maybe George Bush & Dick Cheney were getting nervous about #23 & #24 Impeachment Articles against them:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q…..#038;gl=us
Article XXIV
Spying on American Citizens, Without a Court-Ordered Warrant, in Violation of the Law and the Fourth Amendment.
Article XXV
Directing Telecommunications Companies to Create an Illegal and Unconstitutional Database of the Private Telephone Numbers and Emails of American Citizens.
cheers to that – hope you get some real Progressives in yr district.
did my stages of grief metaphor make sense?
there does seem to be lots of denial, anger and bargaining to me.
there’s a whole world out there once one realizes, the Donk is Dead as a means of progressive change.
(unless you guys really pull some rabbits out of yr hats in the primaries, which, best of luck.)
– Could you lead us through the steps Reid could take from the vantage point you have led us to? –
As the Senator who is introducing the bill, and as majority leader, he has first whack at offering amendments. He can introduce a poison pill amendment, and then “fill the amendment tree” (cutting off the right of any other Senator to offer a competing amendment) with either a do-nothing amendment (e.g., “change the effective date”) or another poison pill.
As to what the poison pill would contain, I don’t have an answer off the top of my head. The amendment has to be one that a majority of Senators would support (fat chance) or that 60 don’t want to put to a majority vote.
Simply by bringing the bill up, he’s dug a hole that is hard to get out of. He can’t get out of it without losing face, I don’t think.
One,Two. . .Cha Cha Cha . . .Three,Four . . .Cha Cha Cha
hoping you are going to re link your two diaries – can I find them on your web page ?
am working on a post and would love to use them. I’ve never done any real blogging in the past so I don’t even know if it’s okay
thanks
I hate to be a pedant, but XX is 20 and V is 5 and IV is 5-1, i.e., 4.
They have no fear of that bunk. None. In the first place they are not Articles of Impeachment, they are draft articles. And they have no chance, none whatsoever, of ever even being considered seriously in committee, much less the full house. Kucinich’s effort isn’t worth the oxygen expended to describe it whith the current House Leadership in place.
did my stages of grief metaphor make sense?
yeppers saw it writ rather large since last friday. everywhere from right here in this thread to Obamaworld.
Fresh Broder-Bashing up above
my webpage is just the weekly congressional hearings list. i’m planning to write another diary this week on what has happened in the house re fisa since august… will continue to post bits of it here for vetting and link when complete. will try to do it sooner rather than later if that will be of help to you.
– will vote “no” only when it is politically safe (they have permission from their corrupt leadership) –
I am even more cynical about their trades. I believe some of the trades are across party lines. Both GOP and DEM have some members who are chronic party line crossers; Landrieu, Nelson (NE), Snowe, Collins, Smith.
“Politically safe” transcends party. Once in DC, they are ALL in the same club. Well, not the outliers, but for the most part, the goal of Congress is to draw power, money and influence to itself.
selise at 235–you can tell when you call their offices by what the statement says that the interns read, and if you can’t tell from that, the written response you ask for from the questions you ask will tell you the answer to that when there is a question, that is why i ask for written responses to my calls.sometimes it takes a week to compile it all, from what was said and what i get in the mail.
also, the local offices often have ’aides’ instead of ’interns’ so, the information you’ll get from them is different…and that inside info comes from an aide that likes me…….the local offices often will divuldge a little more, cuz they have policy and are allowed to use it and disperse it in the name of the candidate, ours has monthly meetings all over the district, is a savvy politico and knows the rep’s views, dc interns are there to compile info and take calls..i use all of that to determine what the vote meant.
i always call both in my district and state……..and some that i’m not in their voting district, areas that keep influencing the votes. as i’ve said before, if they voice an opinion that influences a vote, if they are a spokesperson on a show for a vote, if they are a committee member, then they have to respond, too….even if i’m not a constituent…..so far, that has worked.
hope that helps.
i agree with most of what you write – except they don’t seem interested in the power to
governrule. they are quite happy to have an out of control republican president do that.maybe it is the power of their perks and privileges that they care most about?
no, i completely disagree. i think we are being lied to – the evidence is in their actions. some dems will stand up against their corrupt leadership, but most will not. i don’t care what they tell me so much as i care what they do.
and i wish everyone would go back and listen to the brooks/sheilds segment of the lehrer report this past friday, it is beyond contempt…….and i never say that type of slam….i say it’s sad, missed the mark, etc…..this past friday they missed the landing strip completely. both of them.
i reject both that i must reject all dems because the leadership and most of the caucus is corrupt and that i must continue to support the party because some dems are doing what they can.
my current approach is to support the dems that support me and to reject the rest.
– except they don’t seem interested in the power to rule. they are quite happy to have an out of control republican president do that. –
I agree. In fact, all the better to have somebody else in charge, so they can shift blame. What I meant by “the goal of Congress is to draw power, money and influence to itself” was an institutional attitude, not an individual one.
As for the individuals, your “the power of their perks and privileges” nails it.
It’s great “work” if you can get it. It does not require more than average intelligence, and it obviously does not require honesty and integrity.
oh, yeah, selise, being lied to is a part of it, but sometimes you don’t have all the evidence to determine that till you go through the process, that’s what i was saying………
you said–”it is to distinguish those dems who will vote “no” only when it is politically safe (they have permission from their corrupt leadership) from those dems who are willing to stand up to their leadership on this issue.”
i was saying ways to determine whether they are or not……..one more way to dig, since that matters to you, as it does to me.
to ’vet’ what they are saying completely……..as much as i hate the word ’vet’./s
damn.
i throw that shit out, hoping that you will know me down. :(
well, better to try to know what we are up against than to live in a fantasy world of delusion and denial.
knowknockThank you.
i do dig as i am able, including getting help from congressional aides. (subject to time and knowledge constraints).
… i still stand by my claim that words are not what matters – actions are. which is why i try (again subject to limits on my time and knowledge) to watch what they do. my analysis is based on that alone. if you see any flaws in it, please let me know.
p.s. it’s really aggravating to be told to do stuff i’ve been doing for a while now. maybe i shouldn’t let that get to me, but i’m exhausted, cranky and not feeling well.
re the effective date:
As no-table nancy once said “Would never work for you?”
For me, never would be fine.
Faiing that, 2200 would be grand.
Finally – a way for Harry to leave a legacy.
/s
and selise, i so wish i would have met you at ecahn’s……..i did everything i could to be there……..you were one of the reasons…..and ecahn, cuz i actually remember her giving economics lessons back when girls weren’t allowed on tv……..i do, cuz of my dad…….who taught me to watch those old boring money shows on pbs.
well, out of gin, so time to make a spinach and veggie and cheese calzone, dough ready, let’s go!!!!!
with loud guitar music that i mentioned before spurring me on……….ride em dems, ride em………don’t let that horse buck you off!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks to you and your dad. That’s a useful paragraph and a treat to read. Thanks
Greenwalds post on the British political squabbles over their encroaching police state gave me a smile in a few places…
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
cheers
the flowers you sent were beautiful and we missed you too.
– i throw that shit out, hoping that you will know me down. –
The GOP loved having Clinton as Pres – blame the Pres. Now it’s “blame the majority.” I’ve been following the detainee issue for years, and the current reaction to the Boumediene decision is intellectually shallow, opportunistic, and unnecessarily divisive.
What, 5 of 4 SCOTUS members wants the terrorists to win? Give.me.a.break. The tendency to shift blame and draw polarizing (false) images is pervasive. The public is gullible, the formula works – but it has many hallmarks of an unstable society. Too many liars spoils the soup.
– 5 of 4 SCOTUS members –
Pass me another bier please. Make that 5 of 9.
selise, we do what we can, and we never know the impact of what we do…….please reread what i said about my dad………..our perceptions determine WHAT WE DO………and then he lets it play out…….and keeps on doing it…..every day…….and lets it play out……..
so, when you need a break, take it, whether it be loud guitar-me, walks in new woods-me, new towns you haven’t found till then and eat pie and coffee or whatever is on the menu at the local diner that you love-me, or an art museum to see anew what you missed before due to perception-me, or sitting on a friend’s porch and drinking gin and tonics-me……or shooing away a raccoon and wondering why they showed up while it was still light and seeing the babies in the red bud tree that they climb to the deck to get to the bird feeders, and throw a brand new cantelope knowing that is a no=no……cuz she was just tryin’ to feed her babies…….any of them, do it………
and then get back on the train that you ride on……….choose your city , choose your destination…….
you do a good job, i’m sorry i didn’t get to talk with you in person, couldn’t get the arrangements made in time.
Thanks for all your fine work on this.
thanks revbev, my dad is a wise guy, i almost posted a comment i made at 60 in a back thread about the christian singles meet=up i went to last saturday……..but my browser wiped out my windows, was a few threads back……it was about how to change the world 6 repub christian ladies at a time……but didn’t, cuz it’s all about perception, once people get that, it’s smooth after that…….we accept and they accept and we move on. everything i state any time of day is always based on that. if you don’t understand perception, you don’t possess the knowledge you need to make change…..or understand yourself. let alone understand others….
time for food……gin gone, got my buzz, food then sleep. full week ahead.
(Burp) OK
Way late and haven’t hit the comments, but lhp, this is why I’ve been beating on the drum whenever anyone makes the “foreign to foreign means gov can listen away at will.
The only Sup Ct reference to being able to forego a warrant had to do specifically with intelligence interceptions of communications involving an agent of a foreign power, and this was tied specifically to the differing purpose of intelligence communications and the fact that they are not to be used for criminal prosecutions.
NOW – what we have is not only the fact that they have done away with the foreign power issue, but that they have misused “the wall” arguments to also break down any bar to use of the information for criminal purposes.
So there’s a lovely double whammy. Granted, the opening of the door to get a FISA warrant when they wouldn’t qualify for a Crim warrant was already opened, but the way this is being chip, chip, chipped away, all with Congressional complicity, is just freaking STUNNING.
And the Democratic party OWNS this horrible surveillance state approach now.
Again, I want to thank you for the significant value of your work.
I would caution, however, on seeing this list of 30 as infallible. And I know you have asked others for input on it. I know you have never made any claims that it is infallible.
My guess is that for some of those 30, it was a pretty easy vote. I’m guessing Maxine Waters (who I really respect) fell into that category. Someone like Nadler is from Manhattan. I don’t know all the facts, but I would invite consideration of giving someone there some breathing room. Other reps from districts with heavy defense contracts might have similar concerns.
Reps/Senators from the midwest without defense contractors in their district don’t have this excuse. I don’t know if defense contractors in your district is really a good excuse. I was just trying to throw something out there.
Again, I see great value in selise’s methodology. She’s helping us understand the different levels of support that liberals/progressives receive on this issue. That is critical.
– And the Democratic party OWNS this horrible surveillance state approach now. –
Only by virtue of agreement. I think the record is clear that the advocates are mostly Republicans. The bill comes out of the WH, for all practical purposes. Same goes for the MCA and DTA, also passed with help from the Democrats.
Congress has always been (and was predicted to be) a weak link in our form of government.
It’s his job to get elected. It’s his responsibility to the Democratic party. ACitizen knows this, because before BO won, ACitizen kept repeating that he wasn’t “electable.”
It’s unreasonable to hold the Presidential candidate more accountable on this issue, this close to November, than Democratic Senators, who are not up for re-election. Everything BO says or does is vetted with the thought that an attack might occur between now and the election.
Why aren’t you applying that with the same fervor all the Democratic Senators, especially those who aren’t up for re-election?
William of Ockham had some blistering things to say about Kris’ summary of the FISA amendment legislation over at Jack Balkin’s, in the comments to Marty Lederman’s summary and questions that follow David Kris’ two-part summary.
Apart from immunizing – and hence, hiding – the administration’s past illegal spying, the biggest issue raised by this legislation is the new sweep-up of data it authorizes. It essentially allows hoovering up all that data through a node on the pretext that a legit suspect’s communications were routed through that node.
That’s currently illegal, though many suspect the administration’s been doing it for years, and is, I believe, the basis for the principal allegations in the AT&T case in SFO. Making this hoovering legal makes a mockery of the minimization requirements, because they mimic prior law, which did not authorize such hoovering. It’s really an artful, Screw You, Citizen, from this bill’s drafters.
Prof. Lederman was surprisingly mild in his comments. Chiefly, he points out how much we don’t know about the administration’s current programs, and hence, don’t really know what sins this legislation forgives and legitimates continuing. Given all the Irish Catholic trash talk about Russert and NBC’s Irish mafia from Holy Cross, I would say this bill doesn’t represent forced judicial forgiveness so much as it legislates the sale of indulgences.
My response to Prof. Lederman is, “Well if there’s so much we don’t know about the executive programs this legislation covers, and hence, neither we nor any CongressCritter can evaluate the impact of this legislation on Americans’ safety or civil liberties, then why is it remotely worth passing?” Wonder if we’ll get an answer to that.
another weakness of my list is that it is only about the fisa issue. really – it’s for those like me who think this is a line that should not be crossed – even if it means losing the next election. but i understand that not everyone here has the same priorities.
the main points i’d like to make are:
1. we can’t rely on last week’s vote. like most of what the house has done in the 110th congress, the vote was gamed. an elaborate kabuki choreographed to confuse.
2. we don’t need to choose between rejecting all democrats because the leadership is so thoroughly corrupt and complicit in all the worst of bush’s crimes or continuing to support the party because there are apparently a few dems with courage and conviction.
3. are we going to continue to support dems that betray us and our most important values? i’d like to have that conversation. i hope the list – regardless of what anyone thinks of who’s on it and who’s not, might be a way to instigate that conversation.
it’s not unreasonable if obama is the only one who can stop it. i’d agree if there were other ways.
– It’s unreasonable to hold the Presidential candidate more accountable on this issue, this close to November, than Democratic Senators … –
That can’t be a per se rule, it’s always issue by issue. And as you point out, the “blame game” goes in full swing if there is a successful terrorist attack on US soil.
I personally think the implied promise of protection, in combination with the “blame game” following the inevitable “slip through,” results in something resembling government by lottery. Most people fall into the trap of desiring, and politicians oblige by promising, government protection. Whichever party protects civil liberties will be tarred when an attack is perpetrated.
The result is a spiral of more and more intrusion, for our own protection, of course. If you give up all your privacy, there won’t be any successful attacks.
No, you will never get a good answer for that. Mostly because there isn’t a good answer for that. Apparently, in our society, it is, however, a point that must not be made.
in that case we must make it. loudly and frequently.
I think you correctly cite the position of the Village’s Serious Commentators. Serfs, just carry on tilling the fields and paying my miller whatever he asks to turn your wheat into flower. What we do in the castle and cathedral are none of your concern. You wouldn’t understand it anyway. I cant’ wait until the next Gooper president attempts to enforce Prima Nocta.
– Whichever party protects civil liberties will be tarred when an attack is perpetrated. –
To finish the thought, “So neither party is an enthusiastic supporter of civil liberties.”
Well unfortunately they’re kicking our ass right now.
It would be nice if we could figure out some concrete strategy, script to phone in.
AFAIK, what’s still operative is “no telecom immunity,” forcing that amendment through.
AFAIK, we’re gambling (intelligently) that that forces Bush to veto it.
Wayyy epu’d by weather nastiness here plus trying to paint rooms – not a happy combo.
LHP, if you happen to revisit EPUland. Thank you for yet another wonderful post. I heard virtually NOTHING about FISA on tvnews tonight, not surprisingly. I guess it’s up to “us”.
I wanted to ask you to exercise your judgement on something I did hear.
KOlberman indicated in his program tonight that Obama’s in contact with experts who [must/may have(?)] determined that he, if elected, could reverse the more dreadful aspects of this horrible bill. I couldn’t’ tell if KO was guessing, or if he knew something we don’t.
Have you heard anything of the sort?
– Well unfortunately they’re kicking our ass right now. –
Heh. Well, the “they” I had in mind in Congress as a whole, against the public – not one party against the other. I think today’s party politics is destructive of Western Civ. Not that I care. When the Democrats take over, I’m going on welfare.
My reference to a Chaucerian miller should have said, “flour”, not Flower, as in Bambi and Thumper. I must have been thinking of MoDo and her “Obambi” comments, which even the NYT public editor had a hard time with today.
boo at 272, sorry, i disagree, if the snake oil salesman is selling you a cure, then he better come through with it. or be chased outta town…..i said chased outta town rather than the other things that were done to snake oil salesman who lied about what they could do for the populace…….
he;’s been setting himself up as ’the one’ for a while now, didn’t mind a bit as people talked about him as the new messiah, might as well as said ’the new messiah’ as acitizen said, so, wasn’t offensive to me……as far as i’m concerned, he better step up and deliver. NOW.
all talk no action from me watchin’ him from a distance…….all talk, no action……his wife, too.
i’m the one, but nuthin to show for it……i’m waitin’…….
critical times, no response. not good.
he better have more ’meat’ than the other senators, if he doesn’t, well, ’ain’t gonna be’ much of a president.
he’ll be a wimp-ass servant to others…….which i’m now wondering if he isn’t already.
as i said earlier, perception determines WHAT WE DO…….what’s his perception? i have yet to see him put his feet on the ground and STAND for ANYTHING. solidly.
so, i completely don’t agree.
Thanks for the reply. I have great respect for your intelligence, moral character, and the work product you so routinely and selflessly supply to this community. I think if we had more Americans like you, this country would be in a lot better shape.
I don’t think we’re in a 100% agreement on tactics, but I don’t think we’re that far apart either. I don’t see any position on the FDL continuum as risk-free. I’m not articulate enough to make clear and lucid, what I think are the differences between the pragmatic alternatives open to us if we want to stop this legislation. So, I’ll just leave it at that.
and boo–i was never able to set aside something i believe in to attain something else.
he is a constitutional lawyer, so, he’s able to just set that aside cuz he had to win an election?
sorry, something smells.
and didn’t bush have the same ’i am the messiah’ thing goin’ for him? never put his feet on the ground to claim any ground?
that’s why i say, obama needs to come down from the lofty heights and put his feet on the ground…..and make a stand. NOW.
or it doesn’t mean a whole lot……
Total bunk. Don’t buy it.
– he better have more ’meat’ than the other senators, if he doesn’t, well, ’ain’t gonna be’ much of a president. –
I agree with your general point that Obama is careful about adopting a position on issues in general, but if was pushing for a progressive agenda (I’m not – except to the [non-existent] extent that I’m looking forward to going on welfare), I’d cut Obama slack on his milqtoast objection to telecom immunity.
Weird times – both parties feel an urge to (secretly) keep an eye on the public.
LHP thanks for the post.
LHP wrote:
Wasn’t this definition influenced by the AIPAC Spy case? (Posted some of the following at EW’s…)
So how much of the compromise on FISA is a part of all of this?
from August 06:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/se…..82806.html
Here’s more from that Secrecy News article:
Is a foreign power pushing this compromise? Hoyer gets involved now on FISA? Pelosi talks about AIPAC calling her to pull the portion of the bill irt congressional approval for war with Iran, and she does?
Something smells…
FWIW, a lot of states, like WI don’t have welfare any more.
I was raised a Goldwater Republican. One of Jane’s phrases is the “incumbency protection rackets.” Your point about cross party alliances is well understood by many at FDL.
Although they appear intent on proving me wrong, I don’t see Congress as all that worse than it used to be. It was the politically heroic decision of MLK that imho really began the push to get us out of Vietnam. I don’t see that kind of character on the horizon in either party or in the general population, but I’ll keep fighting.
Thanks for the information.
In the future, please restrict your excerpts to fair-use limits (250 words) and depend on links for the whole piece.
Thanks.
– Although they appear intent on proving me wrong, I don’t see Congress as all that worse than it used to be. –
I think that’s objectively correct. Congress has never been a leader, and is quite susceptible to sitting on its haunches, waiting to blame, shuck, and jive.
But what has changed is the ability of the populace to discern BS. We’re at that point where the public is voting money for itself, out of the public treasury.
Since Edwards dropped out, the mantra at FDL has been, “I’ll support the Democratic candidate for President.”
I’m happy you have learned that BO is not a liberal. A lot of people here knew that long before Edwards dropped out. Barbara Boxer one of the most liberal Senators campaigned for Joe Lieberman. She’s a lot more liberal than BO.
The world does not stop if Congress passes this FISA abomination and Bush signs it. Liberals don’t get a free pass. We’re still responsible for the actions of our country. There are literally thousands of issues, Middle East occupations, torture, renewable energy, the plunging dollar, universal health care, food safety, fair trade, banking reform, and on and and on, which demand our attention. If you’re not involved with political leaders, donating money, voting, volunteering, you don’t get a say on how those issues get resolved.
okay. thanks. *sigh*
I’ve fwded links to LHP’s post here, plus one of her source links to Sen. Sherrod Brown, since he told me in e-mail that he and staff are reviewing the thing. I don’t expect much. I just want him to know info like this, and WE, are out here watching every move they make.
He normally seems a very sharp, dedicated guy. It makes you wonder just what all the varied forces are that operate in D.C. ethers. We’re definitely not breathing the same air.
I completely agree.
What has killed me is to see Republicans do what they used to accuse Democrats of.
I think there are some signs of hope. Corzine in NJ is slashing the state budget. I think if liberals/progressives use our intelligence, we can find ways to use the right pressure points where Congress is sensitive.
Night guys. Thanks for all the hard work you’re all doing. Tomorrow the sun will come up, whatever.
For now, I’m swacked zausted, but we keep making the house just a little more sellable every day. And our hummingbird fledgelings survived the recent hailstorms, with a little help from mommaAdie’s nectar. ;->
P. E. A. C. E.
OT, one of the many terrific points you made on just this thread was that you don’t think they even read the bills.
I think that’s exactly the case.
thanks for the kind words. i think we all try to do what we can.
that’s ok – maybe even a good thing. to me unity is about unity of purpose – not unity of tactics, so long as the tactics chosen aren’t immoral (for example: killing, bombing, etc).
BooRadley and selise. You speak wisdom that calms the nerves.
Re not reading bills: agreed. I used to blame that on repugs’ habitual midnight delivery the things. That excuse won’t work now. It’s pretty obvious leadership decides behind closed doors, strong-arms the lesser beings on the floor, and has their way.
It’s way beyond what Molly Ivins proudly used to call “messy”. Now it’s by far too neat and packaged by a few K-street powerbrokers. dang.
Gotta go for sure.
Jammies: check
Kitty cradled over the shoulder & buzzing: check
Night guys.
“the monstrosity of a law we passed yesterday will not stand…”
David Davis, Tory MP
Thank you for the link, sporkovat. The contrast with “our” politicians couldn’t be more stark.
And Russ Feingold will not filibuster it either: WASHINGTON – “Wisconsin Sen. Russ Feingold will not filibuster a compromise version of an electronic surveillance program although he thinks it will infringe on U.S. citizens’ civil liberties.
Feingold said he and other Senate opponents won’t try to stop the vote, but they ‘won’t allow it to pass quickly.’”
the link:http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200880623141
The attacks against Obama seem over-the-top to me. Sorry he can’t reverse this travesty while a nominee, and while he’s at it, reverse all the other terrible ills of which this FISA bill is only one. But to call for “drying up his funding” as I’ve seen on Emptywheel’s site by looseheadprop and others is to cut off your nose to spite your face. As bad as it is (and the spying has been going on for, what, now 30 years?), there is a forest to look at, not just one tree.
A good read and love the links. Thank you all above.
Am calling and calling senators about this. Like I called the reps before this. Encouraging my network to do the same.
Loved George Carlin’s link — helped me process some anger and frustration. God bless him!
Any listing of what senators besides the higher profile ones on this are on the pro list and who is on the con list? Would be helpful.
Love Feingold. When I watched old Frank Capra films… and grooved on say the Jimmy Stewart character… I didn’t know just how unique the noble guy was in life. The standup guy or woman.
boo at 295–i’m not an obama mama…….
my candidate dropped out.
agree with the rest of it……..