In my opinion, the Bush/Cheney Administration giving the rule of law a choice finger did not cut it. Especially if they were using the resources of the NSA to surveil American citizens in a wide-reaching fishing expedition without warrants or third-party oversight.
But I wanted to get a second opinion from a national security professional whose judgment I trusted. I got a response back echoing those same concerns that I had shared.
Now this would just be a lot of inside baseball, but for two facts: (1) my old prof was Tony Lake, former Clinton National Security Adviser and currently Barack Obama’s chief foreign policy and national security adviser; and (2) I published a bit of the e-mail, with his permission, way back when and it said:
Will be diving into the FISA issues and others this weekend when I have time to do it in more depth, but I wanted to share with you a concern I received from a former National Security Advisor, Anthony Lake. He told me that "this pushes to or beyond the limits for the NSA’s mandate and it raises serious Fourth Amendment concerns." To say that the intelligence community and thoughtful members of Congress have concerns is understating it. And it hasn’t just been Democrats that have voiced these concerns, either.
It is one thing to push the envelope on a specific threat and later seek appropriate oversight. It is another thing entirely to attempt to bypass oversight so that you can do as you please, when you please. Which is exactly why our system was set up with checks and balances in the first place….(emphasis mine)
I see that Sen. Obama clarified his stance, vowing to fight to strip the telecom immunity provision from the proposed bill when it hits the Senate. That’s, of course, presuming that amendments are allowed from the floor, which isn’t a given in the Senate but is at least procedurally more likely.
It would be great if he or any other Senator succeeds…because if they do not, and immunity is granted, there is no going back once that occurs. Immunity is pretty much impossible to rescind once it’s granted, and that will forever shut that avenue of ascertaining what, exactly, the Bush Administration had been using the powerful apparatus of the NSA to do in terms of spying on American e-mails, phone calls, text messages, wire transfers, you name it they have had unfettered, unencumbered, unmonitored access to it.
The question for US Senators is: do you trust the Bush Administration and any subsequent president – regardless of party — with that much unfettered power, to hold the key to that much personal information in their hands, and not use it for any inappropriate purpose? Because by voting for this bill, you are setting the precedent that breaking the law, even knowingly, does not matter if the President mouths the words "national security."
In my book, that’s just not good enough. We CAN have national security and protect American civil liberties, but it takes work to balance the tensions between the two.
And, frankly, it seems to me that the American public is bearing both the full cost and the full load of the work. It’s time a whole lot more members of Congress stood up and led on the rule of law — because the Founders didn’t set up this government for a bunch of elected sheeple to cower in fear and genuflect at the President’s petulant ass-covering demands. What I want is some leadership on these issues, and judging by the comments here and elsewhere, and even the calls on C-Span after the House vote on Friday, I’m not the only one who feels that way on either side of the aisle.
If you thought this issue was done, you can think again…and you can donate here to help us keep fighting.
(YouTube of Jonathon Turley explaining Fourth Amendment and collusion basics — would that I were certain Senators understood this.)
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I wanted to alert you that Allen Boyd, D?-FL King of the Congressional Blue Dogs is on C-span explaining what great job they diod passing the FISA Bill. Reporters on scene asking hard questions, may be interesting.
Dang, I missed the FISA part of the discussion. What was he being asked? Can you give me a good synopsis?
Good Morning…. gee I wonder where my Senators stand on FISA… Oh… thats right….. they are McCain & Kyl…. … the I’m up to my hip boots in telco lobbyists and Kyl who has had the hots to destroy habeus for years….
Well that means there are 48 others to work on….
sorry OT epued
(While the event was billed as featuring “undecided” voters, it was definitely a McCain-friendly crowd. As the conservative blog Truth v. The Machine points out, the gathering “was populated by many friendly faces, several of whom I recognized as long time Republicans.)
The questions subsequently became more substantive. To a query about health care, from a woman whose son suffers from a chronic disease, McCain offered few specifics. “We put the families in charge, rather than the government,” he stated.
“If you like government-run health-care programs I suggest you go to Canada or Great Britain.”
Good Post Christy. Powerful and concise. Not too concise. Its perfect. *g*
We’ve got a hundred Democrats to replace in the house who do not support the Constitution.
Good morning, Christy.
Thanks you for the incredible leadership FDL has provided in this fight for the rule of law.
Just because I had not said it yet.
Mr.Cbl
Digg It Christy!
quick OT – Brian Williams and Lindsay Graham tag-teaming on an Obama hatchet-job this morning. Joe Biden evidently hasn’t had his coffee yet, and is getting run over.
maybe OB will promise (and follow through?) on an investigation of what the NSA did with telco, then publish it.
that would be the right way to make new law.
Have to be careful for that horde of Canadians and British who are swarming our borders to take away our health care ….. since we have it so good… /s
It was a softball asking if he was happy with the compromise legislation. He talked at length about how it showed how the “Blue Dogs reached across the aisle” and “showed an example of how politics was suppossed to work”.
Don’t you think that Reid will just ramrod it through as he did last? Disregarding any and all holds and crushjing his own memebers parlimentary maneuvers, he was at his most aggressive aginst his own side of the aisle. (If only he would dare treat Mitch Chao like that!)
Good Morning,
I’m looking for two things in the Senate;
The people’s rat terrier ,Hillary, can display fortitude in this fight.
There damn right better be 41 Patriotic Senators ,Who learning from numerous examples by the republicans,not to vote for closure.
The questions subsequently became more substantive. To a query about health care, from a woman whose son suffers from a chronic disease, McCain offered few specifics. “We put the families in charge, rather than the government,” he stated.
The families are in charge of managing their bankruptcies in the courts. The insurance companies are in charge of collecting premiums and co-pays, and denying claims.
THAT IS THE CREULEST THING he has ever said in my opinion,A MOTHER WITH a chronically ill child………….he has feces for brains and a black heart…period
Hey folks, it doesn’t matter what any of the profs or talking heads think. It matters if (not what) the 535 pols in DC think. That’s the hard part.
41 and counting.
All OB has to do is say the word.
Duncan says it:
cruelest
Good Morning Christy,
Thanks for keeping us going!
A couple of things:
Hmmm had a suggestion for possible ’stealth’ amendments, over at EW’s place.
the other is this:
I’m wondering what would happen if they, all of these politicians, started getting dead silence at all their public speaking engagements. No applause, no cheers, no boos, just silence. No phone calls from the public, just written communications (fax and e-mail count as written). And we start flying the Bennington flag or the ‘Don’t Tread on Me’ flag on holidays. Or a skull-and-crossbones flag, if we’re not going to play by the rules any more.
im sorry i dont buy it,and im not gonna cut off my nose to spite my face…McSame is NUTS
goopers would have busted any demo president for breaking the law with telco.
dems just rolled over.
in watergate, dems exposed Nixon’s lying and cover up.
these dems think you are supposed to help a gooper conceal lawbreaking.
think steny, then think Rodino.
think pelosi, then think tip.
half of the dems in the House would have been goopers 4o years ago.
Yes he is nuts. That does not negate Duncan’s point though.
I don’t think for a moment Duncan was advocating voting for McCain. I think what he was saying was that voting actions have consequences — and that in general those consequences seem to fall on Democratic Administrations because the GOP is willing to play rough. Even when they are the party that has championed the problem to begin with…someone correct me if I’m misreading there.
I think your amendments are tip top. silence wont work cause it wont happen. they pack the house.
I asked my Senator, Wyden from Or, to publicly accuse those who support this immunity as oath breakers. We are working to remove idiot Smith and replace with progressive Merkley.
we must not undermine OUR canidate,the stakes are too high,and since he is a AA,he has many enemies already…..imo
Oh I do believe it…. Democrats will be hosted on their own petard because they did NOT put a line in the sand and shut this thing down…. It will be the swarm of bees and constant scandal for the next 4-8 years with their buddies the MSM feeding the beast….
and Miss Graham trots out the “China is gonna drill off Cuban shores” argument on MTP.
see27
CNN trotted that out yesterday evening — happened on it as I was flipping through channels during my late night insomnia.
lets be honest…the congressional dems with their speaker …shoulders ALL THE BLAME…eyes on the prize peeps
Please support first-term Democrats in swing districts who voted with the angels on Friday.
Like Paul Hodes and Carol Shea-Porter in NH and Bill Foster in IL.
Oh, and Kirsten Gillibrand and Jerry McNerney? Fool me once,…
Sestak sent me a form letter reply to my “concerns.”
I’m sending it back to him personally (not through his office e-mail) with my reply:
apologies to those in the last thread who suffered through this before.
Stenchy,and Pelosi,know where all the skeletons are burried,Obama imo,was not shown the same evidence
you give great letter,read it on the other thread
btw, just a heads up for everyone: on Tuesday at 3:00 pm ET, we have a treat for you guys. We’re having a special mid-week book salon with Amy Goodman and David Goodman. Hope y’all can make it — the book is inspiring, and the conversation will likely be awesome. Thought folks might like to note this on their calendars…
Just as I fiigured, Brokaw is going to be doing MTP through election day. No big surprise there.
May I plagiarize you? That is a goood letter. I need to send a Certified letter to Lamar Smith.
And Steve Kagen (my guy!) hoping to be only the 2nd Dem to be reelected in our district, ever.
awesome!
That is so excellent. I gave money to him when he first ran and I intend to write him. Disappointed.
for a while there I thought Lukey was going to step in to the position.
Christy,
to be honest, I loved the book salons at the beginning when we had time to actually get the books and read them before engaging in the discussion. I can’t keep up any longer and have kind of given up. But I salute you for doing it.
he is the worst of THE WORST…he stared into the camera,and DAMNED EVERYBODY who protested the war,saying no more BLOOD for OIL….he said that was ABSURD…..vile POS
RevDeb @ 34 I could use that notion for Mr. Murphy another turncoat.
if it’s any help
the Book Salon link above gives the upcoming schedule
Help yourself.
I posted it here just in case anyone from his office might be inclined to read here, though I doubt it and in case he doesn’t get around to reading his e-mail. I will probably print it out too and send it to his local office just to make sure he gets it. It seems they don’t do much about real mail in the DC offices—anthrax ya know! Be afraid, be very afraid!
Haven’t pushed send yet. Finger poised . . . .
Duncan has a very good point.
I’m just saying, it is possible that the Democrats will reverse some of the power grabs once there is a larger majority in Congress and we have a Democrat as president. Some may think I’m being naive or too idealistic and that’s fine. I do have the right to my own opinion thought.
FIRE AWAY…it rocks and so do you
You know, we have the book salon information about scheduling available up top — with scheduling information on books well into July. Anyone can access it at any point to see what’s upcoming. Button’s right up at the top of the FDL page in the information bar.
There are a lot of books — but if you take a peek at the information, you can easily look ahead and see if there are any of interest. HTH! It’s tough for me to keep up, so I’m selective about the ones I read and participate in — we try to mix it up so there’s something of interest for everyone at some point…
DemfromCT’s pundit round-ups are becoming a highlight of my day.
Today’s weekend edition
yes,but we all must admit,a black man already is gonna have a much harder time in the GE….he did not create this problem,and Pelosi and crowd exacerbated it,no?
Not knocking it. Book Salon is great. I just haven’t been able to keep up with anything, let alone that. Rock on.
They can’t pack everything. Even when they try, people notice.
and that was my 1&1/2 cts(thanks to Euro downgrade) see ya later must try to get kittens adopted today!
Christy
Just wanted to say that I never have read any of the books ahead of time but try to read some of them after. But the Book Salons are really interesting and even good for a laugh once in awhile. I have already received my copy of the The Young Dick Cheney. That Book Salon was hilarious and I hope those guys will come back soon.
sent.
What’s next?
There seems to be something missing in all the justifiable concern and outrage over FISA /Telco immunity.
What is it they are hiding? This is not just about saving the telcos some money from citizen lawsuits, I think there is something pretty big that has bi-partisan support in not being revealed.
I’m guessing (that’s what we’re left with) that a “limited hangout” version has been fed congress which could be something along the lines of: ” the National Security framework of the Federal Gov. in conjunction with the Telcos is in the middle of uncovering and preventing a huge terrorist attack on US soil, something that will dwarf 9/11. So mister/mrs congressperson, do you want to be on record thwarting our efforts to prevent this attack?”
In effect a form of political blackmail…and I do believe it all goes back to 9/11, that’s the real story.
Morning Christy and pups. Our Scarlet Tanager is starting a second brood, ditto Rose-breasted Grosbeak etc. etc. etc. And it’s Battle-of-Midway time with hoards of young hummingbirds taking to the air with frantic parents trying to control the action.
Then there’s FISA. dammit.
Thank you for this post. And thanks EVERYONE for all the pressure on our congresscritters.
Stay angry and fight hard.
That book is fricking hilarious. We had a huge thunderstorm the day of that book salon and I could not get online to tell those guys thanks for all the belly laughs because our power was out.
Funniest thing I’ve read in ages. And the illustrations are the best part — I laughed out loud the whole time I was reading it. *G*
you bet.
Meanwhile, Howie Kurtz, the idjit, is leading a nonsensical gripe session claiming Obama’s getting a free pass while McSame’s being unfairly hammered on flip flopping. Huh? Do your homework BEFORE the show, Howie.
it’s more than political blackmail. Nancy, Harry, Jane Harmon, Jello Jay and a bunch of them knew what was coming down at the time. They are covering their own asses for complicity in the crimes that dare not come out in public. They don’t need to be blackmailed, they are with the program.
Skeletons, real or fabricated ones? That is what’s apparently impossible to know.
Boy, Huckleberry Graham makes my stomach churn.
-G
where’s our teleco immunity Daniel Ellsberg?
Yep that is the total of this sell out…. it isn’t immunity for Telcos or BushCo but obtaining immunity for themselves…. protecting their own a*s and who gives a flying fig for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights… AND the American people and our future country…
RevDeb, agree. The crimes are bi-partisan, I guess that is supposed to make us feel better.
My problem with Book Salon is that every book is of interest, this site is of interest, as are a couple of others, sleep and sustenance are occasionally of interest and sometimes life even intrudes!
The new version of the FISA bill passed in the House gives them ALL immunity for EVERYTHING that has gone on during the bush years. Not only Congress and telecos, the likes of Haliburton, KBR and Blackwater as well. Is my read of it wrong?
As usual, Toles’ cartoon is on target,
and the only thing on the WaPo opionion pages that is
neither ethically compromised nor
delusional idiocy.
very nicely done. my hat’s off to you and that.
Doing corporate speeches for Verizon.
-G
Re: the flag idea… just a thought.
For months and months after dubya took us into eyerack, I wore a flag lapel pin – upside down. Also had one displayed beside our driveway out by the road. Both had yellow ribbons attached.
I was pro-active in explaining the pin and flag placement: international signal for extreme danger/distress. Wherever I had at first endured hard stares, those grumpy or quizzical looks were quickly replaced by much-softened expressions of assent.
Sibel Edmonds is about as close as we have to Ellsberg, but she was a low-level translator. Can always hope.
It’s time for the weekly reminder that Howie’s wife, Sherri Annis, is a GOP consultant. See Carpetbagger, the NYTimes, Glenn, and Sadly, No! for starters.
It makes one tend to question, even more, just WHY these people go into politics. Are that few people actually thinking of service, and that many only in it for personal gain and ego-trips?
yes
Shit, these bastards don’t give us a choice. *g*
I learned a great lesson from Charlie. No matter how bad the odds are we can win this in the long run. Keeping the anger tamped down somewhat though makes one a better fighter. That simmering in the gut keeps the drive to succeed alive.
oooghh! Thanks for the heads-up. No wonder.
LOL
Wasn’t suggesting that RevDeb go out an punch someone although we all feel like it at times – or maybe all the time.
Jane Harman + spouse= multi-millionaires.
Nancy Pelosi + spouse= multi millionaires.
…..and we are not talking a few mill but 10’s to 100’s. Part of the oligarchy/plutocracy.
I feel your muted joy, heh!
JFK and RFK were millionaires as well…as was FDR. You shouldn’t judge solely by the bank balance.
Scared me for a second. I thought (at first) you meant “Down w/ Tyranny”’s Howie.
Fight doesn’t necessarily mean physical confrontation, which normally proves nothing at the fistfight level. If we weren’t angry we wouldn’t be doing anything. We are all fighting for our country. Always keep this in mind:
I will believe that violence will overcome violence when you can convince me that darkness will overcome darkness. M K Gandhi
The ones who had the millions first understood public service. The others used public service to get their millions. I may be wrong in that, but it seems to be increasingly happening.
OT but important:
Thanks to this hapless and illegal quagmire we are in, we were powerless to help a true fight for democracy.
here’s another question;
with telecom immunity, why are we allowing the telecoms a free pass if they might sold sensitive data to our enemies, if they sold sensitive data to terrorists, why are we not going to be able to prosecute these criminals?
that’s the question
Speaking of reality meets roadblock wigwam droped this in comments last night.
aipac is pushing for blockade of Iran with H. CON. RES. 362
It is the second item on AIPAC’s legislative agenda.
Here is dKos diary:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..181/539848
Just Foreig Policy:
http://capwiz.com/justforeignp…..d=11518951
And StopAIPAC:
LOL — no. Howie Kurtz. Sorry about that!
I keep getting the feeling that Mugabe is going to suffer the same fate as Rafael Trujillo. I’m actually surprised he’s survived this long.
Agree and that may be one of the reasons why John Edwards was a target…. Repugs could NOT understand why if he went to rags to riches up by his boot straps why he wasn’t a good little Repug
BUT was out there fighting for the little guy….. trying to put the ladders back for others to climb up on and giving them a hand up…. That whacks their world view…..
the Repug myth of pulling yourself up by boot straps is that when you are on the top you take the ladder away and never help anyone else…. because money is a zero sum game. IF the poor have more then it means the rich will have less…. no matter that they used the backs of many others to get where they are.
I’m on board with any effort to target the craven, cavin’ Democrats who are working to undermine our Constitution.
I will continue to give every month to ActBlue and to support efforts that work to unseat the elected officials who sell out our country and out Constitution.
It is great to see a sense of purpose and a coalescing of opinion around this FISA bill!
starbuck posted a great site the other day with the fisa vote—the way it lists the reps, will make it really easy to make calls…….wonderful site, can even track voting on it………my new favorite…….thanks, starbuck!!! i passed it on to the locals on the radio show the other day….
http://www.govtrack.us/congres…..=h2008-437
haha
well said, nonplussed!
i struggle to keep up with this site alone, and there are others I try to keep up with on top of that.
it’s kind of like “college”. go 19 places a day, read 25 books and still keep up with my workouts at the gym, feed the dogs, try to re-create now and then. and i have to work to keep bridge-life at bay. lol
it’s a LOT! but i’d give up many things before giving up FDL. i get the most out of “this course”.
You been peekin’ in my windows, haven’t ya. *g*
Good point, also the percentage of senate/house members whose assets put them in the upper 0.5% of US households is probably immensely greater now than when RFK JFK served.
Christy,
Ad rates for the 2 big locals in Sestak’s district:
DelcoTimes
DailyLocal
Now that he’s one of the Bush Dogs, we need to go after him too. The rates here should be much cheaper than the Philly papers and these are in his district. I hope some of the money we raised can be used for dogs other than Hoyer, Carney and Boswell.
We have friends we see every few years. Very nice fellow. Very wealthy, although he wouldn’t think so. He and equally wealthy wife have always given generously to charities, and they care. oh how they care… but they just don’t “get it“.
I can tell that, even (especially?) for her with her totally inherited wealth (she’s never not been rich, never felt that kind of panic & hopelessness, always trusted in the Establishment), the understanding of what it’s like for the rest of the folks in this world is just not there.
Having a simple every-day conversation with these very nice, clueless people is excruciatingly hard for me. Sometimes I just have to make up an excuse to leave the room. Years ago I made a few attempts to talk in what I thought was a fair-minded, sensible manner about other ways to view the world. Got myself verbally slapped down fair and simple for dipping my toe into that pool, for they took my attytood as an attack. For the sake of family harmony, I now grit my teeth and remain silent and simple-minded when in their presence. fwiw, my spouse agrees with me whole-heartedly, but is even more reluctant to speak up.
So I, too, play the coward in some instances. But at least I’m not in Congress, although I pester the daylights outta of our congrcritters and don’t mince words in that forum except to be respectful of their office. With sen. voinovichy, i suspect i respect his office more than he does. Maybe that’s why I have anger issues to deal with alldeedamtime.
AAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
s’cuse. it’s just too too long between ‘talk like a pirate’ days.
I came across this last night at Unfogged, and I really like it:
i didn’t mean to, but your living room is to die for, SouthernDragon! so pretty!
lol
Not that this is any consolation, but I don’t think the US is in any position to do anything about Zimbabwe, quagmire or no quagmire – for historical reasons. Same holds true for any European country.
Mind if I put Teddy and numerous other Kennedys in that line of great people?
On the other hand, Obama seems to be embracing Hillary Clinton who is not a progressive but more of a Blue Dog Democrat. He’s not perfect by any means, but the most hysterical part is Johnny McTeleprompter is running on the adage that he himself is!
And speaking of college, Thanks so much for this post Christy, and aren’t we lucky and happy to have Jonathan Turley “splain us” some of what goes on! Wish I could take one of his classes.
:)
Oh yes include Teddy….
he has had a special place in my heart and not just his cancer diagnosis…. it was a Cspan special years ago where he was reading his children’s book to a bunch of kids. What you saw was the real mean, a good grandpa who looked the kids in the eye and answered their questions….. didn’t act like a stuff shirt and pretty much made me want to say aaahhhaaaa throughout the whole thing.
Somehow just can’t see any Repug congresscritter behaving like that…
sorry to hear that adie.
maybe someone should tell them that only 1% of the US and perhaps .001% of the world has their privileges and that might explain why many people just dont have their viewpoint.
revdeb at 59 says what’s next?–
how bout-
write obama about the regina thomas/barrett ad issue.
****this one is vital and time is short—-medicare caps for therapy at $1800 for the year as of july 1st unless an emergency extension is presented and passed…….the bill is being consolidated and won’t be ready in time……that means anyone getting therapy will have to pay out of their own pocket if they have reached 1800 dollars for this year……doesn’t take that long to get there…….can affect long-term health and recovery of surgery patients, stroke patients, etc…….only therapy covered after you’ve reached the cap is in-patient therapy.
liked your letter, left a comment in last thread.
been there. did that. have scars to prove it. ;->
u oughtta see the teak flooring on the wrap-around deck of their 4-tier summer “cottage” with the 3 heatpumps. omg… i’m so busted. except they’d never read this, would they?
G’morning, everyone. Way late to breakfast at the lake. Haven’t read comments yet, but wondering whether OB’s clarification on the telecom immunity deal could have been influenced by outcry from folks like us? I live in hope, dive to the depths, and crawl back to living in hope.
((((((Senator Ted Kennedy))))))
california dems were pretty mf pathetic on this surveillance vote. even the westside liberals in LA went el foldo.
Loretta Sanchez voted right. She has been mucho more progressive since her sister Linda showed up in Congress.
I mean Howard Berman voted just like Dana Rohrabacher and Darrell Issa!!!
Mass. Dems were solid NAYS.
McNerney in the Bay area failed us again, after we created his ass in 2006.
take Steny down….raise the money.
never forget.
Wow! Splendid idea.
I know the type, they get outraged and insist that the conversation be about anything but “Politics”. I’ve developed the same philosophy as Adie. It’s easier all the way around.
Morning Barbara. Always one more place at the FDL table. Coffee or Tea?
is there any other way?
Cool, here is one for the black helicopter crowd:
H.R. 1333: Civil Air Patrol Homeland Security Support Act of 2007
I think we’ve got an extra board out behind the shed. Might have a nail or 2 in it, but it’s solid.
It’s yours for the asking. ;->
ya gotta understand. this is, um, family. shhhhh
“If you like government-run health-care programs I suggest you go to Canada or Great Britain.”
I take either, as I lived in both countries, over the clusterfuck we have here, John. Because, unlike you, I don’t have government paid health care.
Anyone else old enough to remember Shelley Berman’s, “Coffee, tea or me?”
Coffee, please. Black. Maybe a little Bailey’s.
I’m old enough and loved him.
or a spouse who gladly picks up all my tabs.
oooh. that sounds good. may i join u? ;->
Me, too. Along with Tom Lehrer.
“Be Prepared” :)
“So long, Mom, I’m off to drop the bomb . . .”
Obama’s claim that he’ll fight the immunity provision of this bill isn’t good enough; even if he’s successful, it isn’t good enough. As Glenn Greenwald pointed out in detail yesterday, the bill still allows stuff that is a horrible affront to the Constitution:
okay okay Ms. Christy. Back to the topic of the morn.
roadblock? schmoadbloc! We go over, around, under. Sometimes, if nobody lookin’, we kick it to the side & tip it over.
we nebber give up. that be why we’re here. & we luvs u ta pieces, gal.
Thank you for all you do!
If this is the case, and there is a big attach planned, let us know. Expose it to sunlight.
Then we can all become part of “the well ordered militia” and take necessary action.
coffee, bagel, and a donation to FDL. A nice way for me to start a summer Sunday !
.
“don’t solicit for your sister, that’s not nice”
” . . . unless you get a percentage of her price . . .”
I’m wondering how long Murdoch is going to keep funding Der Sturmer, er, The Weekly Standard? It loses a million a year and most of its contributors are in disrepute. Murdoch has the WSJ now and at the rate he’s getting rid of the previous editors I wouldn’t be surprised for a new batch of neocons to appear in the WSJ pages and Kristol’s rag go the way of the Dodo bird.
Beat the Meat is STILLLLL droning on about Russert. this is far and way past ridiculous and needs to be over! already.
unbelievable. it’s gone beyond Regan’s marathon dirge. just flippin’ unbelievable. let the man rest in peace, for God’s sake! GO AWAY with this chit.
Barbara, Twain et al., you’re crackin’ me up. Those records go WITH us when we move. Haven’t a clue where we’ll fit ‘um in, but just gotta have ‘um. *g*
“Rompin’ in the Swamp.”
He also embraces the Unitary Executive in his rhetoric.
That’s what I like to hear.
You know, this really scares me. We get just the kibbles and bits, and have to figure out what’s really going on here.
worth watching, i do believe *g*
himself developed a little wobble in his march just within the last 2 weeks, didn’t he? i fergit details… but it sounded mucho interesting.
Nobody should have to live without Lehrer. Gets your giggles going no matter how bad the day is.
Tony Lake aside, Obama should have led on this issue and hasn’t. If he had Hoyer and Pelosi might not have staged their fraud in the House. If he had led, Reid might not allow it to be brought up at all in the Senate or substituted a bill with immunity for it. And lets not forget that the House bill is weak on how information on Americans is treated and allows wiretaps to continue all through an appeals process if the government disagrees with the FISA court and that all of the information so gathered the government gets to keep. Obama said he wanted to change the way things are done. Does that really amount to anything if the results end up the same ole same ole.
As a big Obama fan, this hasn’t been a good week.
First, the support of Barrow in Ga., then the lack of leadership on FISA.
I hope he’s got something up his sleeve this week re: immunity, but it doesn’t look good.
I never expected he would support every progressive position, but immunity within the FISA compromise should’ve been non-negotiable.
Maybe the danger of ‘losing’ on a big vote was behind his decision, however, standing on principle would’ve been a refreshing change.
keep nose to ground. follow crumbs. occasionally check out ambient air quality.
rinse. repeat.
“In my book, that’s just not good enough.”
My first thought was “I didn’t know that Christy had written a book.” More caffeine please.
TRUE, that! ;->
I like your ideas very much.
Thanks.
I have never understood why McCain is never asked the simple question “Why can’t I have health care like yours; no better or worse?”
I listened to albums by Brother Dave Gardner, who ended up doing clubs in Atlanta. His bit about Julius Caesar was hilarious. There was also a bit about a biker and his girlfriend in a restaurant and riding. They were done in a heavy southern redneck/AA dialect.
Come on, baby, let’s blow this joint.
Naw, man, pass it on to the wait-tress.
MoveOn to Obama, keep your word:
The letter goes on.
But what is remarkable is that he and his clever staff have put him into this mess. Per digby:
Remember Bob Newhart on the phone trying to explain tobacco and smoking?
Oops! I somehow missed that part. Good, god. Are all professors of constitutional law, except Jon Turley, this ethically bankrupt?
You are totally right that Obama should have led on this. What is called for in this country is a leader who does not lead by focus group or polls. Is there such a person any more?
Yeppur. Another of my favourites. Newhart’s telephone routines were the funniest. He even did one in a WWII movie.
And baseball.
oshama has lost me… not that he ever had me with any great enthusiasm. He is just one more corporate pig. Oh well, wait till next time!!!!
you will be disappointed by Obama. Repeatedly. Get used to it.
Clinton wouldn’t have been any better.
i’ll only say this once… um… today.
these here politicians are hoomin beins.
hoomin beins ain’t poifect.
when u git a purty good ‘un lined up, recognize whut u got
AND
work with it.
work on it.
back & forth, a little a this, a little a that.
I don’t think Obama’s perfect either.
He’s a LOT closer than I ever thought we’d get.
There’s substance there.
There’s brain power a-plenty.
There’s a deeply caring individual.
You cannot have that strong a package without a few wrinkles.
You currently have a nincompoop tightly sealed in plastic-wrap.
You like it?
Didn’t think so.
I suggest we work with what we have.
Looks purty good to me! Michelle too.
Their obvious shared love and joy, talent and commitment are worth your time and attention.
[i personally am stunned at his grace & savvy in approaching Hill. so quickly to gather her into the tent.]
Let’s Go Team!
I was just trying to figure out how to say this. Deathless prose and all. You nailed it.
Hold your nose, vote for Obama then work really hard to get a congresscritter in 2010 that you can trust. We can’t peacefully overthrow the evil empire overnight. I’ll be 65 in November and I’m figuring/hoping that I’ve got 15 years to be effectively active in taking our country back.
Never give up.
Booman. Nails. It.
I believe that, completely, always knew it. But I gotta say, I think Clinton would have been much worse. Ugly and secret back room deals. I always knew that part too. fwiw.
I have many friends who live in Candada and the U.K. some of which have had serious operations,(heart and brain surgery) and they certainly don’t want to trade their health care for ours. Nor do they want to trade their
drug Enforcement Policies for our’s, nor do they want ot trade their election system for our’s. Need I go on?
There is the problem, it seems to me. If one is overlook the sell outs to the MCI other corporate interests soon he will be doing their bidding entirely. Oshama, like most politicians cursed by DC influence, imagines that he can get away with bad decisions as many will say “oh well what is one thorn the rose smells so sweet” Pretty soon there ain’t no rose just all them bloody thorns. Don’t let them get away with one damn thing. The guy is a fucking sell out. He has the nomination now it is money, money all the way and to hell with the people that got me here. The guy is a pig.
No kidding. Booyah!
66 till Sept.
Let’s go team!
I have been sending money to progressives and am supporting all I can afford to. However I will be writing in Chavez’ name unless oshama changes from a corporate pig to a decent human between now and then.
His name is Obama. He has flaws. He is not a pig. Just sayin’.
anyone taking billy krystol seriously but me?
he says if bush thinks obama wins he’s attacking Iran
mccain has no chance and oba?ma is winning, that means we ARE attacking Iran
nobody cares
I’d like some reporter to ask McSame how he likes his government-funded (aka socialized) medical plan. In front of a live camera.
He is a sham. He is a pig at the corporate trough. Just sayin.
You know, as do the rest of us, that Obama was never going to be the messiah. Lots of us said it over and over during the primaries. No one would have made it past the corpo media that the corpo world thought it couldn’t control. No one.
The only place we will have any leverage at all to try to save this country is with the congresscritters. We now have 70 Bush Dogs rather than 38. That’s 70 dems we need to purge from congress. We have lots of work to do both in fighting the dems that are there and in finding progressive candidates with great cred to run against them. This is a herculean task that we could never have done before. But with new technology, new tools, new alliances, and new understandings of how things really work, we can begin.
LOTS to do.
Nope, not a pig – a politician. Look at it this way – we all hate that he says he approves of the FISA bill. Not good. But if he gets elected we have a chance of getting some good things – stopping the Iraq occupation, plans for more jobs, and health coverage. Things are bad right now and could get so much worse under McC. Saw an article the other day that a health insurance company had denied payment for a woman who had breast cancer. She sued and the court awarded her $9 million. It is, by the way, the company with which I have coverage. Things could get a LOT worse.
Well, he ain’t gonna so feel free to vote your conscience. But I’d choose someone who’s name will be counted. At least it’ll show up on your county’s totals. Using Chavez will show up as a non-vote. That would, imo, be a waste of your vote. At the least a write-in vote shows displeasure with the official slate.
I always take Sardonicus seriously. More importantly, so does Cheney and the rest of the neocon cabal. This is the son of the father of the neocon movement and Cheney creams his jeans reading Der Sturmer.
dugg
Thanks for the link.
Exactly. I usually write in my neighbour’s name, and he mine, when the corporate slate we have been given is too over the top. Oshama had a chance to be a leader, he muffed it and now wants us to believe that he will “do something in the Senate”. I am fed the hell up with promises that do not mean a damn thing.
As it is Chavez is one hell of a lot better, and way closer to my political persuasion, than any of the turkeys we have been given by the MIC.
test
Off to find my Tom Lehrer CD and do laundry. The country will have to wait.
After that DVD’s of the West Wing where I am doomed to find the only politicians who seem to give a damn. And they are figments of Aaron Sorkin’s most excellent imagination.
[dugg]
((((( Firepups )))))
There is a lot of work to be done in electing the kind of Congress we want. The near term is November ‘08,
the mid- term is Nov. ‘10 and the long term is ‘12 and beyond.
If we target the 20 most vulnerable Congresscritters and focus our energies on tossing them out of office
in Nov. ‘08, the rest will sit up and take notice.
Politicians are nothing if not self- serving …
Adieu, RevDeb and pups. Duty calls.
hit the linl button, paste in your link, hit enter
then on your keyboard hit the arrow that points to the left 4 times, type in your word and then you’re done
I remember those albums. I may have one, even.
If he didn’t have track record of being pretty much 100% wrong with his predictions, I might do something more than acknowledge his prediction.
And he may yet get one correct.
But mainly I just note the prediction and note who is making it and take it from there.
Thanks for the link.
I ask all these free-market-uber-alles hypocrites that very question, repeatedly.
Too harsh by [fill in number] imho.
What do you think I meant by WORK ON THEM?
You want a thornless rose? Go find one. They do exist, but the lack more than thorns.
Maybe I read too much Amerind lit. early in life. You work with what you have. You do not give up.
Comments like yours strike me as equivalent to giving up. Please forgive if I got the wrong impression.
I. Will. Not. Give. Up.
Born during WldWr II; African Americans FINALLY allowed in school, at drinking fountains, etc. while I in Jr.Hi. School. Kennedy assas X 2 PLUS King. ‘Nam. Nixon. Kissngrrrr. Deadeye. Rummy. Jr. etc. etc.
I WILL NOT GIVE UP NOW. I WILL NOT SIT SILENTLY EITHER.
How do you plan to crawl up out of your current deep funk?
I will not give up on you.
What are YOUR plans?
just curious. mean no harm. i’ll just sit in the corner here, dunce cap firmly affixed. and wait. pick out what you want to believe and toss the rest. hmmmm. *sigh*
damp dream?
Well done, thanks.
I don’t think we’ll have a cooperative military in that adventure.
The Navy likes to keep its ships at sea. This bit of sabre rattling gives them an excuse to do just that. Every cruise is one big training exercise for the crew of every ship.
As with the invasion of Irak, Kristol hasn’t considered anything but the physical act of bombing. He certainly didn’t foresee the consequences of invading Irak and I doubt he cares what the consequences of bombing Iran would be. His goal is a militaristic empire controlling the world’s resources and economies. If the war industry gets even richer in the process that’s fine with him.
he’s wrong when he predicts the benfits of the chimp, he’s right when he predicts the actions of the chimp
there will be some who will do the president’s bidding, the others will be forced into retirement
I am supporting with as much money as I can two Dems running for Senate with good chances , Shaheen in NH and Allen in ME I also support Shea Porter with money and, this summer, a garden party. When the elections roll around I will be doing my usual 20 hours a week on campaigns. Frankly, if we can get a good majority in the House and Senate it will not make one bloody bit of difference which corporate pig is pres.
part of the problem.
Huh?
“Sailors belong on ships, ships belong at sea”-anonymous old salt
I missed the zed on counter-terrorism.
Well said.
I don’t think Mr 24% has the support at the upper levels of the military he used to have. The Air Force and Navy have gotten through this pretty much unscathed. The Army and Marines, however, are on the brink. If Gates resigned rather than launch an preemptive strike then I think it could get real interesting.
Gotta go hang out da laundry. brb
Thank you for your commitment and service.
I appreciated your work on behalf of Democrats.
cross/posting. ignore. read 204 ;->
Nice comment, thanks.
Well said, thanks.
Well said, thankyou.
No, but imho RevDeb was covering the most venial part. EW, bmaz, and many others over at her place have speculated that the Telco’s already had immunity from criminal prosectution. The Boosh Administration is using immunity for the Telco’s as a shield so that their actions remain hidden. The Democratic leadership has hopped on that bandwagon, solely to protect themselves. OT, as you probably already know, there are a lot of other bad provisions in this amendment.
I’m embarrassed to admit I didn’t know that.
Have always had a strong dislike for Kurtz, especially after “Xerox Ben Domenech.”
God said to Abraham,”kill me a son”
Abe said,”man you must be puttin me on”
God said,”no”
Abe said,”what”?
God said,” you can do what you want to Abe, but
the next time you see me commin you better run”
Abe said,”where do you want this killin done”?
God said,”on down highway 61″
Thanks.
I’m voting for Obama, but I sent Regina Thomas $50.
I had the insolence to question The Great God Glenzilla a while ago:
Take consolation in the fact that the value of their real estate is plunging (along with everyone else’s).
FYI from emptywheel’s place, “Don’t Tell Your Momma, Tell Obama”
Thanks. Instructive.
test II
The lawsuits against the telcos were split into two ,maybe three,groups.Mine is against ATT. MCI and Verizon are seperate.Here’s the catch.Because of Mark Klein’s disclosure
ATT is still on the hook for fourth amend violations because of Klein’s assertion that “content” was obtained.It seems you can search for digits(numbers) but not “content”.So because Klein had the balls to blow the whistle on ATT,and the disclosure was maintained in the ninth circuit,Att violated the fourth.I’m sure MCI and verizon and the others did too but but nobody blew the whistle on them.This is amazing that Klein is central to the whole argument.
I’ll get the link where Marty Lederman goes into Klein’s role in this
Exactly right.
If you are really serious, and I believe many here are, you will help your fellow citizens understand this and vote out every single ‘legislator’ who votes for this.
It can be done. The public is pissed at this whole exercise in CYA.
MoveOn is organizing an email campaign to remind Obama that he promised to fight telecom immunity, not support it.
Bill Burton: bburton at barackobama dot com
Once more into the breach, dear friends ….
I think that if this bill passes with immunity still in it, and the courts leave it as is, then the government will have broken its contract (called the Constitution) with we-the-people, and we can tell them where to go, when to go, how to go, what they can eat on the way, and what they can do once they get there.
Nomolos: voting for someone who has zero chance of getting enough votes to notice is only useful if the candidate who wins is better than the ones who lose. This year, remember we don’t want McCain to win, and if that requires holding our noses – or wearing gas masks! – then we should do it. But we also have to support better Ds and working to get the blue dogs either converted or out of the party structure. It’s a very long term project, and most of us won’t see the end of it.
If as is very probable Obama continues his ‘cave’ then the last thing we can do as a movement is vote for him.
A vote for him in those circumstances legitimizes his actions.
It’s a tough choice but that’s how it will be ‘read’.
There is a ‘third way….’
Draft Hillary.
Alright…I’ve have a question. It is a tinfoil question.
Why did the cell phones of the firefighters on their way to the WTC “fail”…i.e., no cell phone service….and everyone else of course.
Why?
The immunity for telcos in the new FISA bills covers that day.
Just sayin’.
I’d bet the transmitters were on top of the WTC towers (more than one, yes).
No power, thus no transmission, and then the buildings collapsed.
Moral: Make sure you have a landline for emergencies.
(Also make sure your local emergency command center isn’t in a potential target building.)
Aw heck, why stop there, says she, adjusting foil hat.
Does it also cover time chyna climbed the hill, ahem?
http://thehill.com/leading-the…..06-21.html
Maybe.
I’m interested that they picked 9/11 as the date to start immunizing…
There must be lawsuits out there about lack of the ability to communicate…otherwise…why bother…? Unless…
Unless…
??
Great catch Adie!
you’re probably on to something, and you know it.
but then i sit here, good sense and all, typing in a hailstorm…
do i care? yes.
most infuriating bumper sticker i ever saw:
“Stop Worrying. God’s In Charge.”
It’s always the other guys except when it isn’t.
I’m not so sure.
It does not inspire confidence in “the system”.
And yet…?
Why is it that there have been multiple announcements, weeks apart, as more of our tech-savvy congresscritters f-i-n-a-l-l-y discover.
Don’t these people know what a firewall is? WT-hecque!?!
Simple ignorance from within the walls of the capeetol may rule the day, whatever that means. Egad!
It’s like a “Dr. Who” episode, new version please, altho the old sets were magnificent. *grimace*
Hailstorm…oooo…bummer…
I just came across this particular thought, because I’m watching a “movie”….World Trade Center….I’ve watched it a few times…it is brought up in the “movie”….but it begged the question to me…hmmmm…it is subtle, but it is there. Their was no cell service that day suddenly…we alrady know that Quest had been approached pre-9/11, and that Naccio went to jail on other charges….someone wasn’t willing to cooperate. Something just doesn’t add up. it just doesn’t. I’m not alone in this. Now, we have a bill that immunizes the whole shebang. Go figure.
I have an itch that my scratch just never gets rid of.
My gut just keeps saying “noooooo”…..
You sound like my crowd of hummingbirds and their newly-fledged “kids”.
They are understandably miffed at having to dodge chuncks of ice the size of their head. Poor guys.
Oops. Gotta go or fry the toobz. Gettin’ a little close here, eep.
Nice talkin’. Try to keep the lid on, but the stew boilin’. ;->
(((Adie and the hummers…aw…))) Later.
Just found this response from Glen Greenwald re Obama’s statement to work on stripping telecom immunity from the Senate bill:
“”I think we do a grave disservice if we try to convince people that Obama is really going to work to get amnesty out of the bill. Reid is already saying it’s just theater — they know it’s going to fail — it’s just a way, Reid said, to let people “express themselves.” It’s all designed to let Obama say, once he votes for this bill: “Well, I tried to get amnesty out.” He’s going to vote for amnesty — and his statement today seals the fate of this bill. Why sugar coat that?”
When the House passed the bill, first I was furious, then I cried. Then I contributed to the strange bedfellows campaign. Now I think it’s foolish to place hope in most politicians. The system and both parties are corrupt, with some notable exceptions. That is stunningly clear. Rather, wiser to put hope and trust in ourselves, our community here filled with individuals whose passion and integrity and intelligence I respect. (I read every single comment from last night’s thread with over 450 comments.) I will probably vote for Obama, but I will contribute now to our community’s goals which I share. I think that Obama, assuming he wins in November, will have to be pushed to pursue progressive goals. Without that, I don’t think he’s going to get us out of Iraq, for one thing, or we’ll be transferring forces into Afghanistan. If he is not responsive, and the status quo continues, then it looks to me he will have an insurrection on his hands led by the grass and netroots. (It may already be starting.) And although a message of unity resonates in the country, I don’t see that happening, and in particular not within the Democratic party. It seems to me that the debate over civil liberties may be the next unfolding of the movement within the cycle we saw in the ’60s with the civil rights movement. 2010-2011 will be interesting (we’re entering a period of rebellion and revolution)…so, no, Adie, I’m not giving up. Thanks for your comments.
I dont see anywhere in those subsections where the court can require documentation. It is only reviewing what the government brings to it.
and this section (BELOW) does not talk about any primary source material or support for whether the search done was in compliance with the law ONLY that the president ordered it and said it was in compliance with the law and constitution.
`(2) SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIALS- In its review of a certification under subsection (a), the court may examine the court order, certification, written request, or directive described in subsection (a) and any relevant court order, certification, written request, or directive submitted pursuant to subsection (d).
that’s the problem. The court is not asked to determine whether what is asserted is based on fact. It is only determining that the assertion was made.
In other words, I assert the sky is green.
You sue that it is not supported.
The new surveillance law says I only need to show I said it is green. Not whether it is green.
David Sirota is upstairs!
The Uprising: Taking the NAFTA Fight to Fox – and to McCain
EPU’d from downstairs re our fight against FISA [and dammit, now another new thread. Should I chase it??]
Folks, I would also suggest multiplying the effect of your work by writing a simple e-mail to your friends, family, co-workers etc. urging them to contact Senators [esp. Obama] on this.
a) the e-mail [yours AND theirs] doesn’t have to be long. [I can’t emphasize this enough!!!!] Just identify the issue, state the outcome you want, show that you’re a constituent. [Congressional offices, especially Senate ones who receive mail from an entire state, only count numbers. They have a team of “mail handlers” who tally in-coming mail on various issues and create the Senator’s response. He/she NEVER sees your articulate missive, so don’t spend the time.]
b) in your e-mail to your friends etc., it’s helpful to give them the link/address/phone number to use. [More likely to get them to write if they don’t have to search for that.] Include some links to Glenn, Marcy, FDL for explanation(s); thus you won’t have to write a long explanation.
c) I’ve also been suggesting a communication to the DCCC, DSCC and DNL. FDL et al. have raised an awful lot of money in an extremely short time. This should make these professional money-raisers take notice, particularly if you mention that THESE dollars aren’t going in THEIR direction.
Just think: 30 minutes or so on your computer today could produce a flood of communication where it will count, esp. of your friends et al. contact THEIR friends, etc.
Good luck and much aloha [love].
Perris has a point. Donate to a central place, and let that money go to those candidates whose positions we support, instead of donating directly to a candidate, who then changes their mind. Let the funding act as leverage.
At least that is what I thought Perris meant….yikes…hope so. :)
With Peeloosly on the Constitution and Stenchy all over the House, how does anything get done?
Yeah, except as I recall, Jerry McNerney, Joe Sestak, and Patrick Murphy (?) were listed on Act Blue I believe, and that hasn’t turned out so well.
You are welcome!
Nice to know when one makes a difference! :-)
Boy, I remember that as well. Gave to all of ‘em. I could shoot myself.
Fool me once. . .
Please remove these guys from ActBlue, and let us know about more Regina Thomases.
Sestak is gone. Has been for a while.
Karma bites. He will learn that one day.
Done.
By the way I am a Maui mom too.
Oooh, where? I am up-country in Kula.
Thanks for writing to your reps. Hope you burn up the e-mail lines [”tubes”] as well.
It amazes me that there are so many that say ‘hold your nose and vote for Obama’ as though that is the only choice they have. Voting isn’t about voting for who you think has a ‘chance of winning’ but giving voice to your perspectives. And if you’re willing to ignore Obama’s NAFTA flip-flop(as evidenced by his interviews with Forbes), his lack of leadership on FISA (and therefore Constitutional rights), his endorsement of Barrow, his horrendous speech at AIPAC,and his willingness to continue the ‘fear mongering’ re ‘terrorists’, why are you not willing to overlook those issues you disagree with Nader or Barr about?
As Glenzilla points out, it’s not just Sections 802 and 803 that deal with immunity that is the problem with HR 6304.
Quit hoping and give your monies not to Obama but to all the people who are willing to really act as a ‘Representative’ and those projects to defeat such as Hoyer,Pelosi,Reyes, Emmanuel,Harman,etc. With a Congress made up of enough real Representatives and Senators like Sanders and Feingold, there will be enough political power to override an idiot President. Quit buying into the ‘unitary executive’ mindset.
Guess who showed up in Louisville, Ky yesterday? Check this out from my local newspaper.
Yarmuth, Pelosi tour Ford plant before campaign stop
Talks with officials focus on industry
By Deborah Yetter • dyetter@courier-journal.com • June 22, 2008
http://www.courier-journal.com…..20470/1008
If you wonder why Nancy was there just check to see how Rep. Yarmuth flipped his previous position on FISA and ended up one of the 105 Dems. who voted for it on Friday.
no. actually. i don’t. they are beloved family. *sigh*
on the positive side, besides them honestly trying, within their limits, to understand the problems, they hatched a youngin’ who’s a rabid environmentalist with fairly impressive credentials. ;->
sometimes, we do better just by letting families take care of themselves. *g*
so we, like many others, are caught in that awful trap, having to be patient in order to achieve results, yet knowing in our hearts, we are running out of time. seriously. We felt that way in the early ’60’s. We struggle to remain optimistic as we carry on the good fight now.
P.E.A.C.E. Pups ;->
That’s what I’ve been saying for several days on different posts. However, over at kos @kath25, there is strong feeling that expecting BO to assist with a filibuster will just cause him to get creamed again by the right-wingnuts. I think the American people are on our side in this one and it would be great if he and Hillary ran with the ball. And Reid and Hagel and Dodd and Biden and Leahy. I don’t think we’ll get Rockefeller, but we might get Byrd if he’s back. I so wish Kennedy could be there.
Sorry I am so late with this reply. I am in Kihei.