In my opinion, the Bush/Cheney Administration giving the rule of law a choice finger did not cut it. Especially if they were using the resources of the NSA to surveil American citizens in a wide-reaching fishing expedition without warrants or third-party oversight.
But I wanted to get a second opinion from a national security professional whose judgment I trusted. I got a response back echoing those same concerns that I had shared.
Now this would just be a lot of inside baseball, but for two facts: (1) my old prof was Tony Lake, former Clinton National Security Adviser and currently Barack Obama's chief foreign policy and national security adviser; and (2) I published a bit of the e-mail, with his permission, way back when and it said:
Will be diving into the FISA issues and others this weekend when I have time to do it in more depth, but I wanted to share with you a concern I received from a former National Security Advisor, Anthony Lake. He told me that "this pushes to or beyond the limits for the NSA's mandate and it raises serious Fourth Amendment concerns." To say that the intelligence community and thoughtful members of Congress have concerns is understating it. And it hasn't just been Democrats that have voiced these concerns, either.
It is one thing to push the envelope on a specific threat and later seek appropriate oversight. It is another thing entirely to attempt to bypass oversight so that you can do as you please, when you please. Which is exactly why our system was set up with checks and balances in the first place....(emphasis mine)
I see that Sen. Obama clarified his stance, vowing to fight to strip the telecom immunity provision from the proposed bill when it hits the Senate. That's, of course, presuming that amendments are allowed from the floor, which isn't a given in the Senate but is at least procedurally more likely.
It would be great if he or any other Senator succeeds...because if they do not, and immunity is granted, there is no going back once that occurs. Immunity is pretty much impossible to rescind once it's granted, and that will forever shut that avenue of ascertaining what, exactly, the Bush Administration had been using the powerful apparatus of the NSA to do in terms of spying on American e-mails, phone calls, text messages, wire transfers, you name it they have had unfettered, unencumbered, unmonitored access to it.
The question for US Senators is: do you trust the Bush Administration and any subsequent president - regardless of party -- with that much unfettered power, to hold the key to that much personal information in their hands, and not use it for any inappropriate purpose? Because by voting for this bill, you are setting the precedent that breaking the law, even knowingly, does not matter if the President mouths the words "national security."
In my book, that's just not good enough. We CAN have national security and protect American civil liberties, but it takes work to balance the tensions between the two.
And, frankly, it seems to me that the American public is bearing both the full cost and the full load of the work. It's time a whole lot more members of Congress stood up and led on the rule of law -- because the Founders didn't set up this government for a bunch of elected sheeple to cower in fear and genuflect at the President's petulant ass-covering demands. What I want is some leadership on these issues, and judging by the comments here and elsewhere, and even the calls on C-Span after the House vote on Friday, I'm not the only one who feels that way on either side of the aisle.
If you thought this issue was done, you can think again...and you can donate here to help us keep fighting.
(YouTube of Jonathon Turley explaining Fourth Amendment and collusion basics -- would that I were certain Senators understood this.)
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I wanted to alert you that Allen Boyd, D?-FL King of the Congressional Blue Dogs is on C-span explaining what great job they diod passing the FISA Bill. Reporters on scene asking hard questions, may be interesting.
Dang, I missed the FISA part of the discussion. What was he being asked? Can you give me a good synopsis?
Good Morning…. gee I wonder where my Senators stand on FISA… Oh… thats right….. they are McCain & Kyl…. … the I’m up to my hip boots in telco lobbyists and Kyl who has had the hots to destroy habeus for years….
Well that means there are 48 others to work on….
sorry OT epued
(While the event was billed as featuring “undecided” voters, it was definitely a McCain-friendly crowd. As the conservative blog Truth v. The Machine points out, the gathering “was populated by many friendly faces, several of whom I recognized as long time Republicans.)
The questions subsequently became more substantive. To a query about health care, from a woman whose son suffers from a chronic disease, McCain offered few specifics. “We put the families in charge, rather than the government,” he stated.
“If you like government-run health-care programs I suggest you go to Canada or Great Britain.”
Good Post Christy. Powerful and concise. Not too concise. Its perfect. *g*
We’ve got a hundred Democrats to replace in the house who do not support the Constitution.
Good morning, Christy.
Thanks you for the incredible leadership FDL has provided in this fight for the rule of law.
Just because I had not said it yet.
Mr.Cbl
Digg It Christy!
quick OT - Brian Williams and Lindsay Graham tag-teaming on an Obama hatchet-job this morning. Joe Biden evidently hasn’t had his coffee yet, and is getting run over.
maybe OB will promise (and follow through?) on an investigation of what the NSA did with telco, then publish it.
that would be the right way to make new law.
Have to be careful for that horde of Canadians and British who are swarming our borders to take away our health care ….. since we have it so good… /s
It was a softball asking if he was happy with the compromise legislation. He talked at length about how it showed how the “Blue Dogs reached across the aisle” and “showed an example of how politics was suppossed to work”.
Don’t you think that Reid will just ramrod it through as he did last? Disregarding any and all holds and crushjing his own memebers parlimentary maneuvers, he was at his most aggressive aginst his own side of the aisle. (If only he would dare treat Mitch Chao like that!)
Good Morning,
I’m looking for two things in the Senate;
The people’s rat terrier ,Hillary, can display fortitude in this fight.
There damn right better be 41 Patriotic Senators ,Who learning from numerous examples by the republicans,not to vote for closure.
The questions subsequently became more substantive. To a query about health care, from a woman whose son suffers from a chronic disease, McCain offered few specifics. “We put the families in charge, rather than the government,” he stated.
The families are in charge of managing their bankruptcies in the courts. The insurance companies are in charge of collecting premiums and co-pays, and denying claims.
THAT IS THE CREULEST THING he has ever said in my opinion,A MOTHER WITH a chronically ill child………….he has feces for brains and a black heart…period
Hey folks, it doesn’t matter what any of the profs or talking heads think. It matters if (not what) the 535 pols in DC think. That’s the hard part.
41 and counting.
All OB has to do is say the word.
Duncan says it:
cruelest
Good Morning Christy,
Thanks for keeping us going!
A couple of things:
Hmmm had a suggestion for possible ’stealth’ amendments, over at EW’s place.
the other is this:
I’m wondering what would happen if they, all of these politicians, started getting dead silence at all their public speaking engagements. No applause, no cheers, no boos, just silence. No phone calls from the public, just written communications (fax and e-mail count as written). And we start flying the Bennington flag or the ‘Don’t Tread on Me’ flag on holidays. Or a skull-and-crossbones flag, if we’re not going to play by the rules any more.
im sorry i dont buy it,and im not gonna cut off my nose to spite my face…McSame is NUTS
goopers would have busted any demo president for breaking the law with telco.
dems just rolled over.
in watergate, dems exposed Nixon’s lying and cover up.
these dems think you are supposed to help a gooper conceal lawbreaking.
think steny, then think Rodino.
think pelosi, then think tip.
half of the dems in the House would have been goopers 4o years ago.
Yes he is nuts. That does not negate Duncan’s point though.
I don’t think for a moment Duncan was advocating voting for McCain. I think what he was saying was that voting actions have consequences — and that in general those consequences seem to fall on Democratic Administrations because the GOP is willing to play rough. Even when they are the party that has championed the problem to begin with…someone correct me if I’m misreading there.
I think your amendments are tip top. silence wont work cause it wont happen. they pack the house.
I asked my Senator, Wyden from Or, to publicly accuse those who support this immunity as oath breakers. We are working to remove idiot Smith and replace with progressive Merkley.
we must not undermine OUR canidate,the stakes are too high,and since he is a AA,he has many enemies already…..imo
Oh I do believe it…. Democrats will be hosted on their own petard because they did NOT put a line in the sand and shut this thing down…. It will be the swarm of bees and constant scandal for the next 4-8 years with their buddies the MSM feeding the beast….
and Miss Graham trots out the “China is gonna drill off Cuban shores” argument on MTP.
see27
CNN trotted that out yesterday evening — happened on it as I was flipping through channels during my late night insomnia.
lets be honest…the congressional dems with their speaker …shoulders ALL THE BLAME…eyes on the prize peeps
Please support first-term Democrats in swing districts who voted with the angels on Friday.
Like Paul Hodes and Carol Shea-Porter in NH and Bill Foster in IL.
Oh, and Kirsten Gillibrand and Jerry McNerney? Fool me once,…
Sestak sent me a form letter reply to my “concerns.”
I’m sending it back to him personally (not through his office e-mail) with my reply:
apologies to those in the last thread who suffered through this before.
Stenchy,and Pelosi,know where all the skeletons are burried,Obama imo,was not shown the same evidence
you give great letter,read it on the other thread
btw, just a heads up for everyone: on Tuesday at 3:00 pm ET, we have a treat for you guys. We’re having a special mid-week book salon with Amy Goodman and David Goodman. Hope y’all can make it — the book is inspiring, and the conversation will likely be awesome. Thought folks might like to note this on their calendars…
Just as I fiigured, Brokaw is going to be doing MTP through election day. No big surprise there.
May I plagiarize you? That is a goood letter. I need to send a Certified letter to Lamar Smith.
And Steve Kagen (my guy!) hoping to be only the 2nd Dem to be reelected in our district, ever.
awesome!
That is so excellent. I gave money to him when he first ran and I intend to write him. Disappointed.
for a while there I thought Lukey was going to step in to the position.
Christy,
to be honest, I loved the book salons at the beginning when we had time to actually get the books and read them before engaging in the discussion. I can’t keep up any longer and have kind of given up. But I salute you for doing it.
he is the worst of THE WORST…he stared into the camera,and DAMNED EVERYBODY who protested the war,saying no more BLOOD for OIL….he said that was ABSURD…..vile POS
RevDeb @ 34 I could use that notion for Mr. Murphy another turncoat.
if it’s any help
the Book Salon link above gives the upcoming schedule
Help yourself.
I posted it here just in case anyone from his office might be inclined to read here, though I doubt it and in case he doesn’t get around to reading his e-mail. I will probably print it out too and send it to his local office just to make sure he gets it. It seems they don’t do much about real mail in the DC offices—anthrax ya know! Be afraid, be very afraid!
Haven’t pushed send yet. Finger poised . . . .
Duncan has a very good point.
I’m just saying, it is possible that the Democrats will reverse some of the power grabs once there is a larger majority in Congress and we have a Democrat as president. Some may think I’m being naive or too idealistic and that’s fine. I do have the right to my own opinion thought.
FIRE AWAY…it rocks and so do you
You know, we have the book salon information about scheduling available up top — with scheduling information on books well into July. Anyone can access it at any point to see what’s upcoming. Button’s right up at the top of the FDL page in the information bar.
There are a lot of books — but if you take a peek at the information, you can easily look ahead and see if there are any of interest. HTH! It’s tough for me to keep up, so I’m selective about the ones I read and participate in — we try to mix it up so there’s something of interest for everyone at some point…
DemfromCT’s pundit round-ups are becoming a highlight of my day.
Today’s weekend edition
yes,but we all must admit,a black man already is gonna have a much harder time in the GE….he did not create this problem,and Pelosi and crowd exacerbated it,no?
Not knocking it. Book Salon is great. I just haven’t been able to keep up with anything, let alone that. Rock on.
They can’t pack everything. Even when they try, people notice.
and that was my 1&1/2 cts(thanks to Euro downgrade) see ya later must try to get kittens adopted today!
Christy
Just wanted to say that I never have read any of the books ahead of time but try to read some of them after. But the Book Salons are really interesting and even good for a laugh once in awhile. I have already received my copy of the The Young Dick Cheney. That Book Salon was hilarious and I hope those guys will come back soon.
sent.
What’s next?
There seems to be something missing in all the justifiable concern and outrage over FISA /Telco immunity.
What is it they are hiding? This is not just about saving the telcos some money from citizen lawsuits, I think there is something pretty big that has bi-partisan support in not being revealed.
I’m guessing (that’s what we’re left with) that a “limited hangout” version has been fed congress which could be something along the lines of: ” the National Security framework of the Federal Gov. in conjunction with the Telcos is in the middle of uncovering and preventing a huge terrorist attack on US soil, something that will dwarf 9/11. So mister/mrs congressperson, do you want to be on record thwarting our efforts to prevent this attack?”
In effect a form of political blackmail…and I do believe it all goes back to 9/11, that’s the real story.
Morning Christy and pups. Our Scarlet Tanager is starting a second brood, ditto Rose-breasted Grosbeak etc. etc. etc. And it’s Battle-of-Midway time with hoards of young hummingbirds taking to the air with frantic parents trying to control the action.
Then there’s FISA. dammit.
Thank you for this post. And thanks EVERYONE for all the pressure on our congresscritters.
Stay angry and fight hard.
That book is fricking hilarious. We had a huge thunderstorm the day of that book salon and I could not get online to tell those guys thanks for all the belly laughs because our power was out.
Funniest thing I’ve read in ages. And the illustrations are the best part — I laughed out loud the whole time I was reading it. *G*
you bet.
Meanwhile, Howie Kurtz, the idjit, is leading a nonsensical gripe session claiming Obama’s getting a free pass while McSame’s being unfairly hammered on flip flopping. Huh? Do your homework BEFORE the show, Howie.
it’s more than political blackmail. Nancy, Harry, Jane Harmon, Jello Jay and a bunch of them knew what was coming down at the time. They are covering their own asses for complicity in the crimes that dare not come out in public. They don’t need to be blackmailed, they are with the program.
Skeletons, real or fabricated ones? That is what’s apparently impossible to know.
Boy, Huckleberry Graham makes my stomach churn.
-G
where’s our teleco immunity Daniel Ellsberg?
Yep that is the total of this sell out…. it isn’t immunity for Telcos or BushCo but obtaining immunity for themselves…. protecting their own a*s and who gives a flying fig for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights… AND the American people and our future country…
RevDeb, agree. The crimes are bi-partisan, I guess that is supposed to make us feel better.
My problem with Book Salon is that every book is of interest, this site is of interest, as are a couple of others, sleep and sustenance are occasionally of interest and sometimes life even intrudes!
The new version of the FISA bill passed in the House gives them ALL immunity for EVERYTHING that has gone on during the bush years. Not only Congress and telecos, the likes of Haliburton, KBR and Blackwater as well. Is my read of it wrong?
As usual, Toles’ cartoon is on target,
and the only thing on the WaPo opionion pages that is
neither ethically compromised nor
delusional idiocy.
very nicely done. my hat’s off to you and that.
Doing corporate speeches for Verizon.
-G
Re: the flag idea… just a thought.
For months and months after dubya took us into eyerack, I wore a flag lapel pin - upside down. Also had one displayed beside our driveway out by the road. Both had yellow ribbons attached.
I was pro-active in explaining the pin and flag placement: international signal for extreme danger/distress. Wherever I had at first endured hard stares, those grumpy or quizzical looks were quickly replaced by much-softened expressions of assent.
Sibel Edmonds is about as close as we have to Ellsberg, but she was a low-level translator. Can always hope.
It’s time for the weekly reminder that Howie’s wife, Sherri Annis, is a GOP consultant. See Carpetbagger, the NYTimes, Glenn, and Sadly, No! for starters.
It makes one tend to question, even more, just WHY these people go into politics. Are that few people actually thinking of service, and that many only in it for personal gain and ego-trips?
yes
Shit, these bastards don’t give us a choice. *g*
I learned a great lesson from Charlie. No matter how bad the odds are we can win this in the long run. Keeping the anger tamped down somewhat though makes one a better fighter. That simmering in the gut keeps the drive to succeed alive.
oooghh! Thanks for the heads-up. No wonder.
LOL
Wasn’t suggesting that RevDeb go out an punch someone although we all feel like it at times - or maybe all the time.
Jane Harman + spouse= multi-millionaires.
Nancy Pelosi + spouse= multi millionaires.
…..and we are not talking a few mill but 10’s to 100’s. Part of the oligarchy/plutocracy.
I feel your muted joy, heh!
JFK and RFK were millionaires as well…as was FDR. You shouldn’t judge solely by the bank balance.
Scared me for a second. I thought (at first) you meant “Down w/ Tyranny”’s Howie.
Fight doesn’t necessarily mean physical confrontation, which normally proves nothing at the fistfight level. If we weren’t angry we wouldn’t be doing anything. We are all fighting for our country. Always keep this in mind:
I will believe that violence will overcome violence when you can convince me that darkness will overcome darkness. M K Gandhi
The ones who had the millions first understood public service. The others used public service to get their millions. I may be wrong in that, but it seems to be increasingly happening.
OT but important:
Thanks to this hapless and illegal quagmire we are in, we were powerless to help a true fight for democracy.
here’s another question;
with telecom immunity, why are we allowing the telecoms a free pass if they might sold sensitive data to our enemies, if they sold sensitive data to terrorists, why are we not going to be able to prosecute these criminals?
that’s the question
Speaking of reality meets roadblock wigwam droped this in comments last night.
aipac is pushing for blockade of Iran with H. CON. RES. 362
It is the second item on AIPAC’s legislative agenda.
Here is dKos diary:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/.....181/539848
Just Foreig Policy:
http://capwiz.com/justforeignp.....d=11518951
And StopAIPAC:
LOL — no. Howie Kurtz. Sorry about that!
I keep getting the feeling that Mugabe is going to suffer the same fate as Rafael Trujillo. I’m actually surprised he’s survived this long.
Agree and that may be one of the reasons why John Edwards was a target…. Repugs could NOT understand why if he went to rags to riches up by his boot straps why he wasn’t a good little Repug
BUT was out there fighting for the little guy….. trying to put the ladders back for others to climb up on and giving them a hand up…. That whacks their world view…..
the Repug myth of pulling yourself up by boot straps is that when you are on the top you take the ladder away and never help anyone else…. because money is a zero sum game. IF the poor have more then it means the rich will have less…. no matter that they used the backs of many others to get where they are.
I’m on board with any effort to target the craven, cavin’ Democrats who are working to undermine our Constitution.
I will continue to give every month to ActBlue and to support efforts that work to unseat the elected officials who sell out our country and out Constitution.
It is great to see a sense of purpose and a coalescing of opinion around this FISA bill!
starbuck posted a great site the other day with the fisa vote—the way it lists the reps, will make it really easy to make calls…….wonderful site, can even track voting on it………my new favorite…….thanks, starbuck!!! i passed it on to the locals on the radio show the other day….
http://www.govtrack.us/congres.....=h2008-437
haha
well said, nonplussed!
i struggle to keep up with this site alone, and there are others I try to keep up with on top of that.
it’s kind of like “college”. go 19 places a day, read 25 books and still keep up with my workouts at the gym, feed the dogs, try to re-create now and then. and i have to work to keep bridge-life at bay. lol
it’s a LOT! but i’d give up many things before giving up FDL. i get the most out of “this course”.
You been peekin’ in my windows, haven’t ya. *g*
Good point, also the percentage of senate/house members whose assets put them in the upper 0.5% of US households is probably immensely greater now than when RFK JFK served.
Christy,
Ad rates for the 2 big locals in Sestak’s district:
DelcoTimes
DailyLocal
Now that he’s one of the Bush Dogs, we need to go after him too. The rates here should be much cheaper than the Philly papers and these are in his district. I hope some of the money we raised can be used for dogs other than Hoyer, Carney and Boswell.
We have friends we see every few years. Very nice fellow. Very wealthy, although he wouldn’t think so. He and equally wealthy wife have always given generously to charities, and they care. oh how they care… but they just don’t “get it“.
I can tell that, even (especially?) for her with her totally inherited wealth (she’s never not been rich, never felt that kind of panic & hopelessness, always trusted in the Establishment), the understanding of what it’s like for the rest of the folks in this world is just not there.
Having a simple every-day conversation with these very nice, clueless people is excruciatingly hard for me. Sometimes I just have to make up an excuse to leave the room. Years ago I made a few attempts to talk in what I thought was a fair-minded, sensible manner about other ways to view the world. Got myself verbally slapped down fair and simple for dipping my toe into that pool, for they took my attytood as an attack. For the sake of family harmony, I now grit my teeth and remain silent and simple-minded when in their presence. fwiw, my spouse agrees with me whole-heartedly, but is even more reluctant to speak up.
So I, too, play the coward in some instances. But at least I’m not in Congress, although I pester the daylights outta of our congrcritters and don’t mince words in that forum except to be respectful of their office. With sen. voinovichy, i suspect i respect his office more than he does. Maybe that’s why I have anger issues to deal with alldeedamtime.
AAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!
s’cuse. it’s just too too long between ‘talk like a pirate’ days.