Jeff, Welcome to the Lake.

Robert, thank you for Hosting this book salon.

You’re welcome….and greetings everyone.

Welcome to firedoglake, Jeff and Robert!

I’m on-line. Thanks everyone — and especially Robert — for hosting this.

Robert, I gather the specific reply button lets me answer a specific comment, like yours….

While everyone (I hope) is reading and thinking, let me just say that I don’t guess Jeff is going to be invited to speak at the next AIPAC meeting.

That’s ok, we have better refreshments here.

Yes, it works like… this!

Jeff, what has been the reaction to your book?

I don’t think I’ll be invited to a J Street meeting either. Maybe to the NKCSH (the Naomi Klein Committee for Surplus Humanity), which specializes in Palestine…..

Thanks so much for being here, Jeff. My husband’s boss believes nothing but what Richard Perle tells him via the Jerusalem Post, and it’s so sad to see an otherwise-ethical man saying that the Gazans deserve to starve because they’ve been harboring terrorists (never mind why they became ‘terrorists’).

Hello, Mr. Halper. Could you describe what you see as the challenges involved in creating a secular state that includes both Palestinian territories and Israel? In so many ways, it seems to a Western mind like the obvious thing to do, and yet it’s clearly not obvious to the inhabitants of the area.

Please note that I can imagine some on my own. I’m asking what your opinion is on the subject.

The reaction to my book has been very favorable. People seem to think it connects up a lot of issues and history into an accessible whole. Its been selling well — though the University of Michigan Press, which distributes Pluto Press books in the US, just ended its contract because Pluto’s books are too critical of Israel. So don’t look for it in Barnes and Noble…..

Have him read Naomi Klein’s The Shock Doctrine, then my book….

Jeff, after all the history you present, and all the “facts on the ground” — the Wall, the settlements, the roads etc. — can you foresee any Israeli government tearing all that out?

What a pleasure to welcome you here, Jeff, and thanks for the great introduction, Robert. I am looking forward to this discussion.

The idea of a secular democratic state in Palestine/Israel has a lot of merits. Surely it is something Americans who support the idea of democracy should support — especially since it is Israel, with its massive settlements, that has eliminated any viable two-state solution. The big difficulty, however, comes from the inherent conflicts within bi-national states. Nations, by definition, seek self-determination, and cannot share a common state framework (each asks: to whom does this state belong?). Even Canada and Belgian are having major national/linguistic problems. So it is not easy. Still, if we go into such a venture with our eyes open and in good faith, perhaps we can develop a model — maybe a kind of regional confederation — that would work. I see that as a creative challenge rather than a threat.

Naomi was here for a Book Salon chat last November, and one of her comments was this:

The Israel chapter [in Shock Doctrine] is meant to serve as a warning about what happens when a society loses its economic incentive for peace.

Reading the snip above about your “stage two” proposal reminded me of her words. It sounds as if you are looking for a way to bring back that economic incentive for peace.

And before folks think that this is some pipe dream, consider Europe. Economic incentives for peace is what it took to get the Germans and the French to end their centuries of warfare and join the EU.

I’d have to smuggle it into his office. ;-)

Welcome to the Lake, Jeff and thanks Robert for hosting this.

I cannot be more pleased to see this book published. This is a huge injection of truth the American people need to see.

The book was also rude and went to the top of my to buy list.

No, and that’s the problem. In my view, Israel has created irreversible “facts on the ground” that foreclose any viable two-state solution (I say “viable” because Israel is pushing a “two-state solution” that is actually apartheid, based on a truncated Palestinian bantustan). Only a strong assertion of will — on the part of US mainly — could force Israel to withdraw, but there is no hint of that on the horizon, even for an Obama administration. Israel is banking on that, and so is trying to either nail down apartheid while Bush is still in office (that is the meaning of the “Annapolis process”) or, failing that, simply fall back on a status quo where Israel keeps complete control of the Palestinians and keeps building settlements — a situation it feel it can sustain indefinitely (though I’m not sure they’re right).

Yup. Saul Alinsky used to irritate people, especially businessmen, because he never talked about the morality of an issue, just how it would affect a business. His standard reply was that if he talked of morality, the businessmen would nod politely and then show him the door — but when he talked about their bottom lines, THAT guaranteed their rapt attention.

Jeff @13

Due to the undue influence of a certain political action committee, the US authorities and media are insanely pro-Zionist, I’m sorry to say. Disappointing but not unpredictable. *sigh*

Hoping this goes through. 3 attempts so far. If not, I’ll have to come back later.

My own opinion, based on limited observation, is that in those situations the willingness to accept half a loaf is a big requirement. Quebec seems unhappy, but at the same time most can live with the current situation. If there’s not such a middle ground between Israel and the Palestinians, then it may not be possible. Of course, it also takes leaders who are willing to make the compromise happen, which Canada has generally had.

I haven’t heard much about Belgium’s situation, but I suspect that the same requirements apply.

Thank you Jeff for your work and truth … I’m in the midst of reading your book and it is amazing.

You make good points. But I think 9/11 bailed out Israel. It was losing its clout with the end of the Cold War, since Israel was no longer a bulwark against Soviet influence. Once 9/11 wears off, won’t Israel be left exposed and vulnerable to real U.S. pressure?

In response to you, Peter (one “r” right?) and in continuation of my last reply, I’m not sure if economics is the hope of something breaking in Israel/Palestine as much as is the terrible political AND economic situation the US is in internationally. It seems to me that the first task of any new president will have to be to begin to repair relations with the rest of the world, to get the US back in the game, and here the Palestine issue seems central. Its not the biggest or the most bloody conflict, but like a bone in the throat the US simply cannot get on with business as usual — especially in regards to the entire Muslim world — unless this conflict is resolved. It is emblematic to Muslims of American Empire, neo-colonialism, the humiliation of an Arab people, and must be resolved no matter what their own local problems are. This is the Palestinian main source of clout: they are the gatekeepers. Until they say the conflict with Israel is ended and its time to normalize with Israel/the US, this mother of destabilization will continue to fester.

Jeff, how did you get access to the people for interviews? What kind of research did you do?

The idea of a pipe dream is so appealing. We have seen enough slash and burn. Where are you getting the most support for this more nuanced and humane approach? A little OT: do you think there is much power behind the Christian end times groups? They all sound so crazy to me that it is hard to take them seriously. But I think that view may be quite naive. Thank you

Thanks Bob for writing this, and thanks Jeff for being here today. Your work is very courageous. I was excited about the possibility of having you on as a good entry point to the discussion about Israel and the Palestinians. It’s such a third-rail topic, particularly online, but what you do is inspirational. I hope it will spark the conversation that we really need to have.

Jeff and Robert, welcome!

What did you think of Obama’s speech at AIPAC?

If Israel-Palestine is a “third rail,” Jane, Jeff has got both arms and legs wrapped around it! So Jeff, have they called you anti-Semitic yet?

BTW, I hope folks got a chance to read Bob Dreyfuss’s excellent article on “hothead McCain” in the Nation. It was very revealing about his foreign policy positions, “worse than Bush.” If anyone was hoping for a solution to the Mid East situation under McCain, short answer — don’t hold your breath.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080324/dreyfuss

Yeah, that’s why the work is so brave. Most people generally don’t have the fortitude to walk into such a loaded situation with so much courage. Kudos to you, Jeff.

Would peace be more readily achieved if Israel became a secular state and not a Jewish state? Is this not a part of the problem? Wouldn’t secularism be a requirement for a one-state solution? Which ME countries serve as examples of relatively peaceful secular states?

(My name has one R, but my handle here at FDL is Peterr with two R’s — it helps to keep me from getting mistaken for other people named Peter who may pop up and comment.)

I was speaking about getting Israelis and Palestinians to recognize that their own economic interests may drive them to consider peace, rather than war.

But you are absolutely right that the US reputation internationally (and especially in the Middle East) is in serious need of repair by the new presidential administration and must be dealt with immediately.

The US is truly insanely — or at least irrationally — committed to Israel. Kissinger once said that countries don’t have foreign policies, only domestic ones, and certainly the influence of the ORGANIZED Jewish community (to which 70% of American Jews do not belong and to whom they have never given their permission to represent their views) and the Christian Fundamentalists (Christian Zionists) is great in both parties. But I think there is an elephant in the room: Israel’s inserting itself squarely into the center of the American military-industrial complex. It contributes three things to the US in particular: (1) hi-tech components for weapons and security systems (from the wall with Mexico to Theater Defense); (2) “counterinsurgency” weaponry and tactics rising from its long-standing low-intensity conflict with the Palestinians, in which the Occupied Territories are a laboratory’ and (3) Israel’s willingness to be America’s hired gun, to do anything that needs to be done with no questions asked. Such a combination is tremendously useful for a US whose engagement with the world is primarily military, and explains a lot of its support for Israel.

Jeff, what do you consider the best online sources for accurate information on events in Israel, Palestine, and the neighboring countries? Any good blogs or news outlets you’d recommend?

I live in Israel (35 years now), so I am “embedded.” My research comes, of course, from reading, etc., but more so from being there: being on the ground in the Occupied Territories, living with Israelis and being in daily contact, reading Israeli newspapers and watching the news, etc., and then knowing who to talk to. My book is an “insider’s” book, but one of a critical insider who can see out of the box — which, unfortunately, is all too rare….

That’s a pretty heavy elephant in the room. Would tend to drive us towards ever more war, wouldn’t it?

Would peace be more readily achieved if Israel became a secular state and not a Jewish state? Is this not a part of the problem? Wouldn’t secularism be a requirement for a one-state solution? Which ME countries serve as examples of relatively peaceful secular states?

good question, hackworth

It’s disturbing to sense that there is an apartheid or caste system within Israel.

Jeff, from “inside the box” but looking out — how does Israel view Obama?

Israel has been cutting off food and water in order to drive out or kill Palestinians. Cutting off water is obviously a nasty and devastating trick. People need to know about this inhumane tactic. Didn’t the Rachel Corrie incident involve protecting a water source? It seems that the US has accidentally ruined Iraqi water. Your thoughts?

The Christian Zionist groups have been very influential over the past eight years, but I think/hope their influence is waning. I think Americans are starting to wake up (you can’t fool all the people all the time, though they had us going for a while). If the next President — OK, Obama — is assertive from his Inaugural Speech on about reinstating America’s influence in the world through engagement, then I think the American people will go with him. He has to assertively break the notion that peace/human rights/being a part of the world are “left” anti-American ideas. And he has to tell Americans honestly that they live in a world they can no longer bully, let alone lead. I think the tide is turning against the Christian right.

Thank you, Jeff. American support of Israel’s egregious anti-Palestinian policies was the main reason given by ME experts for why 9/11 happened. No one in the mainstream media would touch that with a ten-foot pole.

When I first got internet connected in 2000, researching this issue was a huge priority for me because the news reports in the MSM smelled rotten. So it’s one of my issues with them.

If you look up the links on Israeli peace websites you can find a lot of good information: the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, which I head (www.icahd.org), the Gush Shalom and B’tselem sites, and others.

IMHO, truth be known, even the Christian right does not relish the idea of having skin in the game. This is where they really lose the argument.

Thank you for your perspective. Good luck in your work; the truth is very powerful. My best.

And yet, it’s astonishing how often efforts in this country to avoid eroding our rights are viewed as merely “liberal” or “leftist” values. I always thought they were American values.

Gotta go, but thanks for your perspectives, and for this book. Looks like I’m making another pilgrimage to the bookstore.

I don’t live here so I don’t have a good sense of Obama or the forces for and against him. I know that among the circles I travel in — those seeking a just peace in Israel/Palestine — his super-pro-Israel comments to AIPAC raised alarms. We know that you can’t criticize Israel and be elected president (as even John Stewart said on the Daily Show), but the Palestine issue is emblematic also for progressives, even those not directly involved in the Israel/Palestine issue. Its a kind of bell-weather. So if Obama hears cries of dismay and discontent over his pro-Israel views from a wide range of supporters, that may signal him to be much more nuanced — perhaps even “even-handed” (which got Howard Dean slapped on the wrist by Kerry a few years ago). He has to go into office knowing that this conflict must be resolved, and that it must be resolved in a just way — which is going to mean facing down APIAC.

In the US, the public is lead to believe that all Israelis support war against Palestinans (and Persians). What do the numbers look like re: Israeli public opinion?

Bob and Jeff, thanks so much for coming. You bring a critical message. I know it’s not anywhere near as bad as the Warsaw ghetto, but imho, there are parallels.

Welcome Jeff and Robert. There have been lots of stories recently about Israeli talks (some indirect) with Hamas (truce via Egypt), Syria (via Turkey) and Hezbollah — but US media reports portray this as cynical, unlikely to succeed, a product of the government’s weakness and not supported by the Israeli electorate. How do you regard these efforts, and do they help or hurt in the long run?

So most Israelis — and the Israeli media — like McCain (the US reporter for Ha’aretz, our most liberal newspaper, is a McCain supporter) and do not “trust” Obama at all.

Do you have any upcoming BookTV appearances scheduled?

I would say that the fact that Israel is negotiating with Hamas and Hezbollah makes the American candidates’ unwillingness to do so look ridiculous. Seems Israel is doing what it thinks is best.

What is the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions, (www.icahd.org)?
What are your goals, what have you accomplished so far?

I was wondering, too, how big the ICAHD is?

Actually, most Israelis do not want the Occupation. 70% do not support settlements and are willing to accept a Palestinian state (though 85% want the Wall). But they have been told by their leaders — Barak of the “liberal” Labor Party as well as those of the right-wing Kadima, Likud and religious parties — that peace is impossible, that there is “no one to talk to,” etc etc. Israelis, then, have been disempowered and neutralized as a political force. Left without a solution, they can only vote for the party that is the strongest militarily against “terrorism.” That’s why its so hard for us in the peace movement to talk to Israelis. If peace is impossible, they say, then why talk about it. So in many ways the Occupation (we don’t use that word in Israel) has been rendered a non-issue.

Jeff, is there something the next US President could say or do to create impetus for folks beginning to think in terms of the 2nd phase? Everyone here seems stuck on the two-state “solution” as though that’s the end.

What’s interesting is Israel’s inability to “pacify” the Palestinians (or Hizbullah in Lebanon) by force. The fact that Israel is forced to negotiate with them shows that military strength is limited — though Israel, a country run by generals, still believes it can “beat” the Arabs. The US plays a divide and conquer strategy, supporting Egypt, Jordan and Turkey (and Saudi Arabia) against the other Islamic states, making it seem that Israel is negotiating with them, and in fact weakening their support for the Palestinians. But these regimes are weak and will eventually fall (ironically to the same Islamic forces the US is trying to contain) — unless a drastic new Middle East policy designed to genuinely support democratic governments is embarked upon, settling the Palestinian issue being the first order of business.

Sorry Jeff, I have not yet read your book but I will have to pick up a copy. There is another book, The Lemon Tree by Sandy Tolan (if I remember correctly) that deals with many of the same issues (from the joint adult perspectives of a Palestinian child returning to his home to find the Jewish girl whose family had taken up residence).

While I’ve always known that Palestinians came to the peace table being the short stack as it were I was not aware of how they had been completely screwed by the U.S., Great Britain and even the U.N.

It’s sad but certainly nothing new that the leaders on both sides have also not always served their people well but then that true of almost every nation.

Do you think it’s possible to have negotiations with a starting point that is even somewhat equitable to the Palestinian people?

I look forward to reading your book.

Tell us a little about ICAHD, Jeff.

The tragedy here is that we are engaged in a terrible conflict — and one that is dragging the US down with it — that does have an apparent or ready solution at the moment. The two-state solution is still the one accepted by the Palestinians, the Arab world, the majority of Israelis and the international community as expressed in the Road Map initiative, but it is simply not being done. As Israel expands its settlements and control daily (7,400 new housing units have been announced for the settlements since the Annapolis process began only 7 months ago), the two-state solution appears dead. And yet the one-state solution — a bi-national state or a democratic one — seems unworkable at this time, having no US or Israeli backing. I have written about a regional confederation as a possible way out, but this is just thinking at this stage. I think, however, that the conflict is unsustainable. Something will break, whether it be an American economic meltdown, a tsunami that alters the geo-political situation, an attack on Iran, something that has to do with Chinese lack of oil — who knows? Our job is to hasten the end of the Occupation, and then be ready with solutions. Unfortunately governments do not deal directly with the people, even if the people are right….

Thanks. I did not know they are that far out in right field. The US has been trending that way too though with 8 years lead by Shoot Em First and Ask Questions Later Cowboy. Israel hopes that the US continues on the same path. Jesus Christ.

Some right-wing Israelis wanted a confederation with Jordan that would push the Palestinians mostly into Jordan, didn’t they, Jeff?

ICAHD is a political organization dedicated to ending the Israeli Occupation (in whatever form that may take, including a one-state solution). We are a direct-action group that resists the Occupation by both standing in front of bulldozers that come to demolish Palestinian homes (a la Rachel Corrie, who was a member, however, of the International Solidary Movement in Gaza), and we rebuild homes that have been demolished as political acts of resistance. (We have built 150 homes over the past 11 years, some for the third or fourth times — although Israel has demolished 18,000(!) since 1967 on the OT.) We raise funds from people all over the world (like you….) to rebuild. We have a staff of 8, supported primarily by the EU and churches around the world, but no membership; instead, we call on Israeli and Palestinian (and international) peace groups to come join us in our rebuilding actions. We also engage in international advocacy (I spent 200 days last year abroad speaking and organizing, and even now I am in NY).

Wouldn’t a war with Iran make more and bigger problems for Israel? Or would they use the fog of war to expedite the ethnic cleansing of their own house? Am I way off the Reservation?

The skeleton in the closet is relative birth rates. It won’t be long at this point before Israeli Jews are a minority in Israel and the Occupied territories, which are the areas under rule. At that point it becomes a very clear apartheid situation. The european population is already pretty pretty tired of the situation, even if their governments generally toe the line. As the US continues to lose influence, power and the ability to heavily subsidize allies, will Israel find itself unable to ignore all the trends that are moving against it?

The identify of Israel as a Jewish state to me seems almost doomed — the majority of the population under Israel’s real rule will soon not be Jewish and it is essentially impossible to create two viable states if the settlers won’t be moved out en-masse (because of water and right-of-way concerns).

The Israeli experiment of a Jewish state, a state based on religious-ethnic identity, looks to me to be walking dead. Only very significant compromises and sacrifices could save it.

So I tend to think that Halper’s end-game is less unrealistic than he thinks. Something along those general lines will happen, the only question is when and how much suffering will be involved first — unless Israel is willing to move to full fledged ethnic cleansing and just expel everyone. And I don’t think they are.

Unfortunately governments do not deal directly with the people, even if the people are right….

Seems a universal problem. There are few signs either US party is responsive to the american electorate either. Despite all the rhetoric about “democracy” we seem to be in a profoundly undemocratic era.

I come to the US frequently on speaking tours. I will be speaking this coming week at the Presbyterian General Assembly in San Jose (Tuesday and Wednesday) and in San Francisco on the 30th. If anyone wants details of my travels, write me at jeff@icahd,org. Unfortunately, the mainstream media won’t host me. I was on a couple Bill Moyer’s programs, but I seem to be too much for Charlie Rose (who has been approached several times), let alone the network TV and even radio interview programs.

Jeff-
what part is great britain playing in all of this? what type of agreement do they want?

and separately, what role is tony blair playing in all of this? haven’t seen many quotes from him since he became the new broker for peace, he has been strangely silent.

bbl

jeff at 71–try amy goodman at democracy now……..or the new outlet here, grittv.

I agree with you, Ian. I just don’t think Israel is sustainable as a Jewish state. First, the Jews didn’t come. Only a quarter of the world’s Jews live in Israel (census figures say a third, but they don’t count almost a million emigrants) — and only 1%(!) of American Jews ever went to Israel, the vast majority religious or ultra-orthodox. Second, only 70% of ISRAELIS are Jews: 20% are Palestinian Arabs, another 10% are (non-Jewish) Russian or Ethiopian immigrants and foreign workers who somehow stay. And third, the very idea that a modern state can “belong” to a particular privileged people (a notion that contradicts the very essence of American Jewish values) is untenable. That’s why I say some kind of one-state solution will emerge — although, again, as I said earlier, Israeli nationality is a reality and has to be part of the equation. The US — and American Jews in particular, who could weuild some influence over Israel — should be engaged in helping both the Israelis and Palestinians out of this mess, rather than “supporting” Israel in what is a doomed adventure.

Amy had me on once, but the Israel/Palestine issue is not one she covers very much for some reason, and when she does she interviews mainly people living in the US.

Have you had any success at all getting on to radio talk shows, and so on? In the United States I mean.

It looks like demographics not diplomacy will determine the Israeli-Paalestinian conflict. I think Oslo was the last chance for a two state solution and that was 15 years ago. I am curious about the issue of racism on both sides of the conflict, but especially the Israeli side. It seems like an issue that is scarcely mentioned but allows for much of the brutality of the occupation.

I would also like to know if there is much talk in Israel of the disconnect between Israel’s arsenal of 200-300 nuclear weapons and its stance toward Iran. I finally was wondering what you thought the likelihood of an Israeli attack against Iran in the Fall. Do people there talk about what a logisical nightmare it would be, the low probablity of success, and the massively negative consequences?

I think a war with Iran would be disastrous for everyone, but Israel, which for a century has avoided dealing with the Palestinians, has another strategy: find allies in the Arab/Muslim world (Egypt, Jordan, Lebanese Christians, Iran once (and perhaps again?), sometimes Morocco and even Saudi Arabia, Indonesia (the world’s largest Muslim country) and maybe now Pakistan) or out-flank them (through military presence in Ethiopia, Kurdistan, Turkey, India) — then knock down those pegs that stand out (Hizbullah, the PLO, current Iran). Israel is so militarily superior — and has the US and Europe behind it — that it feels it can manipulate the Muslim world forever.

On another topic, what do you think of the conservative and religious right’s support of Israel in this country?

Do Israelis try to draw a distinction between Separation and apartheid?

And many states in the region have the same problem that Israel does in identifying along ethnic (Arab, Turkish, Persian) or religious (Moslem/Sunni/Shia) lines. In the long run, these distinctions seem as antithetical to concepts of universal rights as a Jewish state.

Britain is playing a shameful role as the US’s “poodle.” Blair, the EU’s envoy to Palestine, is trying to finesse an American/Israeli-led plan of apartheid by “sweetening” the deal for Abu Mazen/Abass. Give him a mini-army (Russia just provided personnel carriers), a few thousand work permits in Israel, international donations, perhaps a little more sterile territory — just so that would agree to collaborate. I don’t think he will — or can — but that is Blair’s “contribution.”

If Israel were going to join some sort of regional confederation, I would expect that the other countries involved would insist on some sort of system of economic redistribution of resources designed to prevent Israeli Jews from dominating the economy of the confederation. How do you think Israelis would react to the suggestion that they needed to establish some sort of affirmative action program designed to help Palestinians recover from the effects of generations of Israeli oppression? And what incentive do Lebanon, Jordan or Syria have to join the confederation with Israel? Do you envision this confederation having economic transfer payments, perhaps similar to those in Canada, for example, where richer provinces help subsidize poorer provinces? Have you thought about the Malaysian system of affirmative action as a possible model?

Its hard to say. Just yesterday in the Israeli press — and for good and mostly critical coverage, see the Ha’aretz website in English – a story was published that Israel held military exercises for attacking Iran. Its itching to do so. I can’t see how it could contribute anything to Israel, but it won’t do so unless the US tells it (or allows it) to. Bush may not want to go out with a wimper, so its a real, if truly insane, option….

Could an European Union Lobby make a more constructive effort at peace than the current American Israel PAC?

Jeff, Thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon, and for sharing your insights into the political situation in Israel.

Robert, thank you again for Hosting the book salon.

Everyone, if you haven’t bought this important book, there is a link above.

Thank you all.

yes, the u.s. adopted israeli tactics down to the letter in the seige and razing of fallujah.

Thank you, Jeff, this has been most revealing. Best of luck with your work, and please come back again soon.

Thanks to all! Great work. Jeff.

Israelis don’t really care about “the situation” or certainly about Palestinians. The economy is booming, security has been restored to the Israeli bubble (at a great cost to the Palestinians), tourism is back, the US and Europe love us — what’s wrong with this picture? So they don’t make distinctions between apartheid, separation or anything else. They don’t know ANYTHING about what transpires in the Occupied Territories (we don’t use the word “occupation” in Israel — or “Palestinian”: for that matter). They have taken themselves out of the political game, relying on the Israeli army for security and on the US for continued support.

Whew! This was a lot of work! But very stimulating. Sorry if I didn’t get to everyone. Thanks Bev, Robert and Egregious. Let’s do it again (my next book is on Israel and the world’s arms trade). Ciao!

Yes, thank you Bev, Robert and all.

Jeff, I thank you particularly for your voice here today.

bigbrother June 22nd, 2008 at 3:07 pm 112
In response to klynn @ 68 (show text)
Obvious conclusion.If the most effective intelligence agency in history Mossad http://www.fas.org/irp/world/israel/mossad/
Revamping FISA to give coverup to AIPAC’s known spying on US intel agencies may be a very strong benefit for them and their agents. Since they have only 1200 employees that have to contract spy work out. For me one of the most disturbing revalations is that Rand Corporation is involved agian. Remember Secretary of State McNamara said after the Nam war it was a “mistake”, he had extensive advise from Rand in the Nam war runup.
With 35 of the new Bush administration official being signees of the PNAC statements and the PNAC letter to the Clinton administration requesting a ground invasion of Iraq, now pushing for bombing Iran, William Christol and Dick Cheney original members it is obvious “We the people” did not know that Isreal is making foriegn policy for the USA. That is on their best interest not ours. The fact that they are willing to break our laws and spy on our top secret branches of government is more than troublesome. The fact that they are promoting ther dissolution of our rights under FISA is an outrage. The fact that thise convicted of a spying conspiracy are not serving their sentence is like the pardon of Libby.
If ever treason was rampant it is under the Bush administration.
Marcy could overlay this work with last fall and this spring’s effort to get the Immunity included…PAA…Military Commissions Act legislation restricting our Constitutional Rights and priveledges. Mussolini was hung upside down for his treason against Italy. I do not recomend or believe that will happen, but I do believe he his family and associates have collorated to restrict the constitution of the United States to which they have sworn to protect and uphold. Pelosi and Hoyer in the House and Reid in the senate are participants in enabling this attack.

Thank you Jeff, Robert, et al. :)

Couple of links for info:
http://www.jstreet.org/
http://electronicintifada.net/

Great conversation. I learned a lot. I bet the book is excellent too.

Blessings, Jeff.

Your #50 is brilliant.

Thank you.