Zed!

War Crimes trials for the Bushies.

jus cogens!

Angers me when on air personalities like Morning Joe state that the “average Joe” doesn’t care about the torture that is occurring
in our name.

Impeach. Convict. Remove. Indict. Arrest. Convict. Imprison.

if only we had an opposition party capable of producing a candidate who would change anything.

too bad.

When Obama was asked about holding the Bush gang responsible for torture – certainly a “grave, grave breach” if there ever was one – on the very day that Bush finally admitted that he had approved waterboarding – i.e., torture - of a detainee, Obama said this:

“[O]ne of the things we’ve got to figure out in our political culture generally is distinguishing between really dumb policies and policies that rise to the level of criminal activity. You know, I often get questions about impeachment at town hall meetings and I’ve said that is not something I think would be fruitful to pursue because I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances.”

http://www.worldcantwait.net/i.....Itemid=220

Bobby,
you left out “Interrogate” -

Wilkerson pointed the finger at Cheney today, by saying that Addington would not have acted without Cheney being involved. He clearly said that Addington, Yoo, Bybee gave Rummy and his crew the backing to create the program in DOD that directly led to Abu Gharib. He said that Addington was at the apex and was the mind behind creating the legal policy to support it…it being what Rummy wanted.

Very sobering report loosehead. Thanks for helping us understand this terrible situation. We owe it to those who were falsely imprisoned, and tortured, to figure out the truth. Will there be anything left of our international reputation?

There doesn’t seem to be many in the Dem party that “oppose” anything Bush has put in place, perhaps in word but not in deed. We can have hearings out the ass, but nothing and no one suffers any consequences.

Will there be anything left of our international reputation?

No.

Another case of simple answers…

I caught a snippet of Morning Joe this A.M. as I was switching over to watch Washington Journal. What Joe said, essentially, was that it’s okay to torture if the perp is bad enough. If that squinty eyed weasel ever loses his show, it couldn’t be soon enough to suit me. The man is irrelevant as far as I’m concerned.

Just imagine the vicarious thrills enjoyed by Cheney and Bush as they toasted their issuing of each torture directive. Quite a pair of manly men we have in power at present. Since nothing relevant came from those tortured, it must have been done for the entertainment of the Decider and Lord Cheney.

The Bush Wing of Hell must grow larger each day to be ready for all the Bushies heading there.

thats right. Glenn Greenwald has many times, vociferously said the same thing.

to me, lack of opposition, tacit approval, passive acceptance, and even overt endorsement of torture and disappearance put someone beyond the pale on the political, and moral spectrum.

the magic of a (D) after their name does not counteract this, but hey thats just me.

Obama’s staffers rebuffed me by phone and email prior to the passage of the odious Military Commissions Act - the Senator “had not read it”, “had no position on it” etc, etc.

That to me clearly indicated a lack of any moral compass - only a fine tuned and reactive political compass.

His rhetorical opposition to the occupation, and basically all issues, is now viewed in this context.

“Average Americans” don’t seem to distinguish between ‘innocent until proven guilty’ and ‘guilty as charged’. If a person has been “picked up” they must be guilty. Suspicion = guilt, so anyhing the US does to EC’s can be rationalized.

Dan Froomkin had this in his on-line chat today:

Charlottesville, Va.: What did you think of former Defense Department legal counsel William “Jim” Haynes’s testimony yesterday at the Senate Armed Services Committee hearing? Would you say that he beat former Attorney General Gonzales’s record for being “unable to recall”?

Dan Froomkin: You forget how forgetful Gonzales was. Haynes’s performance was more an homage to Gonzales than an eclipsing.

That said, I do wonder how the senators could have gotten more out of him than they did. If nothing else, I would have liked to simply hear from him his narrative of how these decisions were reached.

Me, I’m increasingly obsessed about David Addington’s scheduled appearance before the House Judiciary Committee on the 26th (that’s eight days from now!!!!!).

How in the heck should they approach him, I wonder.

That committee meeting on the 26th could be quite something. Even if Addington clams up and keeps repeating “Executive Privilege! Executive Privilege!” it would be nice to see him smothered with questions stemming from this PHR report.

Of course, that might only change his chant from “Executive Privilege!” to “Fifth Amendment! Fifth Amendment!”

A responsible house of representatives with respect for the rule of law and following their oath of office would impeach.

Those who don’t impeach, as is their duty, are just as complicit now.

Can we IMPEACH now, can we, huh, please?????

Carl Levin’s (almost) hour long opening statement yesterday was stunning.

And today, Feith’s refusal to be on the same panel with one of the witnesses (gee could it have been Wilkerson?) showed what a real coward he is.

There better be war crimes trials right here in the United States for Cheney, Addington, Yoo, Feith, Bybee, Gonzales, and dear leader Bush. It will be to our even greater shame if we don’t act before the international community does.

And can we IMPEACH NOW?!

What’s the old joke? “If a conservative is a Liberal that’s been mugged, a Civil Libertarian is a Conservative under investigation.”

I think the time for politeness is past. Inundate Congress with Impeach Now!

It’s not a request.

Torture = Terror.
We can never defeat terror by using terror.
Remove the war criminals from our White House.

Wilkerson speaking on the subject of Feith. Go to the 44th second for the juiciest bits.

Froomkin also responded to a goofball:

Washington: How on earth can The Post put that article on the Web Site about the report from Physicians for Human Rights without even mentioning that these people are trained to lie, and that these accusations are being made with no firsthand knowledge or testimony of people who saw it happen. The Post should be ashamed. Printing these stories without verification — this is liking printing a story from Amnesty International about abuse without putting into context their position and history. This is The Washington Post, not the Huffington Post! Terrorists also say it is God’s will to kill, and they will get virgins in heaven for killing people … is this printed in The Post as fact without any counterweight?

washingtonpost.com: Report: Former detainees still suffer from trauma (AP, June 18)

Dan Froomkin: From what I understand, the whole point of the report was to determine if there was medical evidence that supported the claims of these detainees — none of whom, I might add, were ever charged with anything. And apparently there was. Furthermore, it’s not like this comes as a bolt out of the blue. There have been too many reliable reports of abuse by now for anyone even vaguely objective to deny them.

I should add, however, that the article you refer to has thus far only run on the Web site. I will be curious myself to see how this story is handled in the morning paper.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....01739.html

Holy Shizzola….CNN reporting the report right now!!!

Pentagon denying that it was “their” doing….

‘Brenda’ Starr and Wolfie now “reporting” on this very thing,

I’m not saying that the information in this report, or the underlying backup documentation make a triable case all by themselves. I doubt that it does.

But this is a HUGE development in terms of the feasibility of bringing a war crimes trial and actually getting a conviction.

It does appear to make the case that crimes were committed, which is a necessary first step in any criminal proceeding — or impeachment hearing.

Not being a lawyer, I will accept that you have your reasons for believing that the information in the report or the data that back it up don’t make a triable case. It’s data collected by the most widely recognized medical protocol for collecting physical and psychological data on torture and abuse, the Istanbul Protocol. While I might agree with you that there is more to the case than documenting that the torture occurred, this is how torture and abuse are documented, medically, since 1999. The protocol is also online at the PHR website, and discussions are at IRCT and elsewhere.

Just like the hearings are moving towards copies of documents and sworn testimony, the investigation at the prisoner level is moving from ICRC documentation of allegations to documenting the medical evidence.

I hope that means the noose is getting tighter.

[Mod: we trust you mean metaphorically]

Sorry to be off topic, but Larry Sinclair’s press conference was apparently one of the funniest things to ever happen at the National Press Club.

Favorite part:

his lawyer was wearing a kilt. When asked why, he said it was
because his genitalia were too large to fit in pants. I’m not making
this up - it’s on the tape.

I for one can’t wait to watch.

Also, “false flag” atrocities are now official United States of Booshie policy.

Alternative intelligence-gathering techniques and sources, such as doppelganger or pseudo operations, can be tried and used when it is hard to obtain information from the civilian populace. These pseudo units are usually made up of ex-guerrilla and/or security force personnel posing as insurgents.

Yes absolutely register and download a copy of that report from Physicians for Human Rights, be aware you’ll find it grim and upsetting reading. But don’t please don’t let that stop you. It really is information you need to know to push back against the pushback.

Looseheadprop Thanks for highlighting this at the risk of repeating myself can I suggest to people that they go to Global Policy Forum and download the War and Occupation in Iraq report either the whole thing or the relevant chapters:

Unlawful Detention

Abuse and Torture of Prisoners

Both very solid, thoroughly sourced, (and footnoted like nobody’s business) :-)

Can I make a point about Taguba? You’ll have to google for it, but there was an interview published with him about his report. I can’t (sorry) remember when or which publication but one thing that I remember is that while I was reading the article and the interview it became very clear that Taguba knew that he was wrecking his career when he kept on pushing …. but he kept on pushing.

General Taguba (in the quote above from the preface to the PHR report) certainly seems to thinks so.

ding!

Judiciary committee John Conyers said on cspan3 the Geneva Convention applies to the whitehouse and our military. Looks like more subpeonas and charges comming. I called and thanked his committee staf which you can do by asking for the committee’s office. I also call the officials office. I hoping for Inherent Contempt on all refusals. Keep those phones ringing…smile and dial!
1 (800) 828 - 0498
1 (800) 459 - 1887
1 (800) 614 - 2803
1 (866) 340 - 9281
1 (866) 338 - 1015
1 (877) 851 - 6437

As impeachment advocates, including Rep. Kucinich, have pointed out, unless this president and vice president are impeached by the current Congress, any—and probably every—future president will feel empowered by unchallenged precedent to ignore laws passed by the Congress, to go to war without Congressional approval, to spy on Americans in violation of the law, to ignore court orders, to abrogate international treaties, and to lie to Congress and the American people. Unless Congress asserts its rights under Article I, it will no longer even be a co-equal branch of government, but instead will have been reduced to nothing more than a debating society.

from http://counterpunch.org/lindorff06182008.html

I know I know, Counterpuch is not a member of the Democratic Party cheerleading section of the so called Progressive Blogosphere, but try to look past this superficiality at the message, not the messenger.

This may account for Obama’s position quoted earlier, that “I think that impeachment is something that should be reserved for exceptional circumstances.”

As a possible future occupant of the Oval Office, he will be in a position to avail himself of all the new powers Bush/Cheney have consolidated there.

Try McClatchey search for general Taguba

It was Sy Hersh’s interview…I’ll try to find a linky.

domino effect coupled with massive amounts of schadenfreude = intense, hopeful day.

Hersh/Taguba June 2007

I think you may be thinking of Seymour Hersh’s piece in the New Yorker from last June.

The inquiry had begun in January, and was led by General Taguba, who was stationed in Kuwait at the time. Taguba filed his report in March. In it he found:

Numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees . . . systemic and illegal abuse.

Taguba was met at the door of the conference room by an old friend, Lieutenant General Bantz J. Craddock, who was Rumsfeld’s senior military assistant. Craddock’s daughter had been a babysitter for Taguba’s two children when the officers served together years earlier at Fort Stewart, Georgia. But that afternoon, Taguba recalled, “Craddock just said, very coldly, ‘Wait here.’ ” In a series of interviews early this year, the first he has given, Taguba told me that he understood when he began the inquiry that it could damage his career; early on, a senior general in Iraq had pointed out to him that the abused detainees were “only Iraqis.” Even so, he was not prepared for the greeting he received when he was finally ushered in.

“Here . . . comes . . . that famous General Taguba—of the Taguba report!” Rumsfeld declared, in a mocking voice. The meeting was attended by Paul Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld’s deputy; Stephen Cambone, the Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence; General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff (J.C.S.); and General Peter Schoomaker, the Army chief of staff, along with Craddock and other officials. Taguba, describing the moment nearly three years later, said, sadly, “I thought they wanted to know. I assumed they wanted to know. I was ignorant of the setting.”

It gets worse from there.

Yep, it’s that dressing down of Taguba that I think of every time I lay eyes on Rummy’s ugly mug. Throw Rumsfeld in jail already.

Replying to all of you - yes that’s the one.

some bits - all from page 7 of the executive summary:

Many of the physical assaults reported would likely
have resulted in bruises and soft tissue injuries that
would not leave lasting physical marks. However, the
bone scan findings of six individuals, and scars and
healed lesions observed on physical examination of
all detainees corroborated their specific allegations
of physical assault. Scarring on Yasser’s thumbs was
highly consistent with the scarring caused by electric
shock. Further, reports of rape and sexual assault were
corroborated in two cases by medical examination.

One of the worst forms of humiliation detainees
reported, though, was sexual, and it was reported by virtu-
ally all of the individuals evaluated by PHR, at facilities
in Afghanistan, at Guantánamo, and in Iraq. The forms
of sexual humiliation were as varied as they were cruel:
parading men naked in front of female soldiers, forcing
them to disrobe before female interrogators, touching or
provoking them in a humiliating way, and forcing them to
watch pornography or real or feigned sexual activities.
Furthermore, nakedness became the normal mode of
operation in the Iraqi detention facilities, especially in
Abu Ghraib, where the detainees were forced to be naked
for long periods of time. Kamal stated that his genitals
were touched multiple times during interrogations in Abu
Ghraib. Further, he reported that when the American
soldiers “got me naked, they used to bring all female
soldiers to look at me and say, ‘Hello, Imam’.”

In Abu Ghraib, Rahman recounted that he was forced to watch
other detainees being forced to simulate anal intercourse
and recalled that the detainees “were begging, ‘This is a
sin against our religion, please show mercy.’ The soldiers
were pushing them into each other, and these guys were
trying to push away, and this was more than half an hour
and this was in front of our eyes.”

When Wilkerson pointed the finger squarely in the VP’s office today…Conyers had a bit of a reaction saying something like this was putting this whole situation on different footing…as if what Wilkerson’s testimony just upped the ante..

The Administration is in big doo doo.

-David Addington
-Alberto Gonzales
-William J. Haynes, II
-Our old nemesis John Yoo
-Timothy Flanigan

The Vietnamese were deathly afraid of “the men with green faces who come out of the ground.” Now the above listed individuals can be deathly afraid of the men and women who come to court with evidence.

Be afraid, motherfuckers, be very afraid. Cuz we’re comin’ and we’re comin’ for you.

And Cheney and Bush too.

schadenfreude schadenfreude schadenfreude schadenfreude schadenfreude and justice.

Honestly, I do not fault Obama for dancing around the impeachment question at this point.

a. why telegraph your intentions before the current occupants move out?
b. it’s congress’ responsibility and Pelosi should be feeling the heat.
c. he didn’t say he was against impeaching these guys, he just didn’t answer the question straight on.

JMHO.

“But he’s our war criminal!”

I can still hear the logic ringing throughout the land. Our politicians are spineless in the face of tyrannical and draconian abuses of human rights and dignity. They’ve decided that it is better to leave us living in fear of our own government than it is to end the rein of rule of Busholini’s thuggery. There is no mention by the Framers of a “Unitary Executive”…yet we have “great legal minds” telling us that is what the Constitution sez? That the Presidunce is above the law?!” Unfortunately, the joke is on us…or not so funny if you’re thrown in a cell and tortured for years on end.

Sorry if I’m repeating everyone here.

But WTF is congress going to do about it????

i might agree if he had, you know, worked even a little bit to defeat the MCA?

No, you misunderstand me. I’m not saying that this is not a triable case. To the contrary, I’m saying it makes it much more likely that there IS a triable case. it’s just that there are other elements besides proving injury to the victims. you have to get all those planets to align as well.

But being able to prove injury is a big development

Nothing.

Sinclair was arrested, also. Apparently on outstanding charges in CO.

Back on topic, please can we get some of these @#^&*s arrested and tried for war crimes? I know Tim Rutten doesn’t think Bush and Cheney should face charges after leaving office (because winners don’t arrest losers in this country, he says), but I’d like to see it go higher than it has so far.

There is some sort of dissonant cogniscence when I read this and realize it’s US abusing prisoners, not creepy nazis or japanese during WWII. It doesn’t compute.

And when it does, I feel like retching.

I don’t want to believe it. No no no, not my country.

But WTF is congress going to do about it????

we have a big problem because it looks there are dems in the leadership of congress who are complicit. and don’t forget that jane mayer reported that the policy of extraordinary rendition (where a person is kidnapped and taken to egypt to be tortured and or killed) was begun during the clinton administration.

sadly, as much as we might prefer to think otherwise, this problem is not limited to republicans. replacing Rs with Ds will not solve it. it’s going to take much much more. including the painful process of confronting our own party’s leaders.

Doh! who in your opinion was the biggest opponent of MCA? (not being snarky or deliberately stupid…)

and it gets worse. i had to stop for a bit. i seriously feel nauseous.

Which is what regular German citizens said after WWII. That you go into denial until it’s too late to do anything about it.

no one in the senate objected to the unanimous consent agreement. i’ll go look at my notes… i watch c-span all day for several days in a row while that was being voted on. and cried a lot.

also, if hugh is around - he has a bit on how reid arranged to get it passed that i missed.

On a tangent, there will probably be a continuing stream of information on this coming out over the next few months. Dem candidates should incorporate the acceptance of such lawlessness by Rethug and Blue Dog incumbents in their campaign messages. Christy and Lady Jane wouldn’t like me saying to stand ‘em up against a wall so we’ll just go after them with the Million Ton Shit Hammer.

It is not too late. We have to look this evil in the face and NOW.

Yep. Extraordinary renditions began b/c the Clinton DOJ was deeply in compartmentalization. Hence Jamie Gorelick’s “wall” between criminal and intelligence divisions in the FBI.

This desire to create accountability firewalls was a slippery slope. What has to happen is you have to examine the BEHAVIOR and ask, is this what “we” do? Is this what we OUGHT to do?

we have a big problem because it looks there are dems in the leadership of congress who are complicit.

That is becoming more and more obvious with Pelosi’s stonewalling from the get go.

and don’t forget that jane mayer reported that the policy of extraordinary rendition (where a person is kidnapped and taken to egypt to be tortured and or killed) was begun during the clinton administration.

sadly, as much as we might prefer to think otherwise, this problem is not limited to republicans. replacing Rs with Ds will not solve it. it’s going to take much much more. including the painful process of confronting our own party’s leaders.

I really don’t see a whole lot of distinction between D & R frankly. I see career pols and new players. Not much difference between them either until proven otherwise.

Probably nothing other than more hearings. But it bears repeating.

sporkovat has a rather anamolous take on things in the (D) Party captured blogosphere.

weird weird weird, I know.

But like anything, a point of view can be used to make predictions, hypotheses, and then these can be confirmed or disproved by observation.

If my point of view makes valid predictions (as it has on impeachment, funding of the war, the whole FISA fiasco,etc) then maybe its not so without foundation after all?

so here is a prediction derived from the news of the day:

No one of high rank or influence involved in the torture policies under discussion will face any consequences as a result of investigations, grandstanding, subpoenas, contempt or other actions of the Democratic controlled Congress. No resignations, no firings, no jail, certainly no impeachment. Ever.

Unlikely best case scenario: An Obama administration might, might, convene a Special Investigation, whose conclusions will cause a minor media ruffle prior to the midterms of 2010.

If proven wrong, I’ll eat crow wearing a dixie straw hat with donkey ears.

Depends on what type of Up Against The Wall you’re talking about…

Right. I am aware of this and have taken to reading books about German society during the rise of the Third Reich.

Torture is never OK. It doesn’t matter who is doing it and under what circumstances. It is just sheiss.

I can’t stand hearing people defend themselves saying they are criticized for “not being ‘nice’ to terrorists”. That’s the most unAmerican way to think.

I agree. I also think the story is much, much worse than most people would dare to imagine.

I thik the difference is with the BUsh Adminisitration. there was an editorial in Sunday’s NYTimes about how many times SCOTUS has rebuffed Shrubya on his conduct of the war and his acts towards detainees.

Way more time then aver before in history. And this is Shrubs packed court, don’t forget.

The writer concluded that is was not because this is an activist court looking to constrain the executive, but b/c the actions of this administration are so freaking unlawful.

Obama needs to on the right side of the rule of law issue, just like he is on the right side of hte end the war issue

“Here . . . comes . . . that famous General Taguba—of the Taguba report!” Rumsfeld declared, in a mocking voice.

I don’t know enough to know whether the position would suit him, but with honor, integrity, and commitment to the core principles not just of our Republic but of Western Civilization in such severely short supply these days, I’d dearly love to see Gen. Taguba sitting in Rummy’s chair in Obama’s administration.

Now that would be change I can believe in, and a shout-out to the whole world that we really are returning to the community of civilized nations after the apostasy of the last eight years.

I agree

Who in the US would try these people for war crimes? What court?

i do think there is a difference - it’s the good cop / bad cop difference.

there are some folks who are trying to do the right thing… think about holt on fisa for example (and to a certain extent feingold and dodd). kucinich and wexler on impeachment…. and a bunch in the out of iraq caucus.

but not enough.

i guess the point i’m trying to make is NOT that there is no difference - it’s that it doesn’t make a difference if there is a D or an R after their name. we have to judge them all by their actions and not by which party they belong to. otherwise we end up missing the bad stuff our guys do because we are so focused on the the other guys.

this is exactly what the Rs do and i don’t want us to do it too. and frankly we (and especially me) did far too much of that during the clinton years.

Thank you for the note of hope (?) in an otherwise distressing thread. I do want these criminals brought to justice. It cannot stand.

Personally, I’m not interested in Congress pursuing this matter after the election. I’m interested in a full blown criminal investigation. The leadership in Congress couldn’t hit their ass with both hands so why bother with that sorry bunch of parasites.

Much as I fear Sporkovat will never get a chance to show off that dixie cup chapeau–I feel that it is necessary for us to keep up a drumbeat demanding prosecutions.

It is the only hope in hell that any will ever take place. If we don’t take to the streets with torches and pitchforks, how will Dr. Frankenstein ever know we don’t like what he’s doing in the lab?

and cruelty, too.

please stop describing me (as well as everyone else here) as captured by the D party - unless i do something to justify that claim. in which case, i hope you will call me on it. but not until then. ‘kay?

War crimes could be tried in federal district court.They are US federal Crimes under the War Crimes Act. or they could be tried at the Hague

I know you disagree marcy but in my opinion, haynes, in trying to obsolve his own culpability testifies that he was ordered to torture and to ignore the geneva convention by bush himself, not a surrogate, not an underling and everyone can see it for themselves;

haynes;

“…I would also point out, the president of the united states, with the advise of the entire cabinet, made the determination about the application of the Geneva convention”

there it is, transcribed by yours truly but to me that is crystal clear, he has with no doubt in my mind thrown bush under the bus with that statement

that is a direct indictment of the president himself, no surrogates at all, direct indictment of his commander in chief

We need Congress. The president has immunity. The remedy against him is Impeachment. the rest of them, criminal court is dandy.

Me too. Let Congress gather info now, and then go after them as civilians. Impeachment would be good in that Bush would be prevented from issuing pardons during an investigation. Another thing that possibly could happen is a Nixon scenario…resignations with pardons….and/or that they hunker down and barricade themselves in the WH with Blackwater guarding them!…That would make fun TV.

totally agree that all politicians are subject to everlasting vigilance and scrutiny…

gtg fornow pups catcha later.

Nice catch. It may take a follow up question, but you may have something there.
After all shrub is “the decider”

i gave some quotes to dosido before - they are from milton mayer’s “they thought they were free: the germans 1933-45″

already linked to them once today, but they really are on point when we are discussing our use of torture and war.

er, Sorry Selise - perhaps too broad a brush for down here in the comments - but up on the frontpager level has FDL ever come close to condoning 3rd party options, or withdrawal of support for the Democratic Party?

I know there was some debate about it wrt some posts by Howie of DWT in support of an Independent candidate for Congress - but opinion seemed at least evenly divided pro/con.

I’m also including sites like Kos, which I think is safe to say is a (D) advocacy site.

FDL more independent, more various, true.

Thanks LHP. I imagine the Hague is going to be a reality, only they won’t “show”…but the’ll never be able to travel.

Gravel has an independent 9/11 Commission thing going on in NYC…trying to get signatures of NYrs to put it on a ballot or something.

Bugliosi has already prepared a case and outlined it in his book…he’s sending the book with a letter to every prosecutor and DA in the country, and has established jurisdiction in all 50 states for trying Bush.

Both of these described on Democracy Now in the last week.

Hopefully, people will come at them from all angles and something will stick.

Torture is never OK. It doesn’t matter who is doing it and under what circumstances. It is just sheiss.

it’s not only because of “the high ground”, it’s not only “the right thing to do” and it’s not only for the sake of morality

there are quantifiable and practical reasons you do not torture

1) you get more actionable information from the subject with other methods

2) you encourage future insurgents against your cause, you turn moderates into extremists and extremists into heroes

3) you reinforce the insurgents position against your cause

4) you make it impossible for a person who agrees with your position to come forward, you lose more information then you could ever gather

and the administration knew all of these facts, they knew it with no doubt, the only reason to have policies which include torture is to encourage the insurgents, to create perpetual unrest

that is the purpose, the purpose of gathering information does not exist

Tim Rutten is a freaking idiot; and that was my position long before you relating that.

Nice catch. It may take a follow up question, but you may have something there.

construct the line of questioning for waxman and send it on it’s way looseheadprop

u b the errr….person

er, another purpose of State Terror is to show that legitimacy and consent of the governed are no longer factors. And like everything else, it does not stay confined to far away, dark-complected foreigners - it’s message, and it’s usage, will spread back to the ‘homeland’ if it has not already.

another reason why some meaningful oppostions from (D) Party apparatchiks would be most welcome, and its absence is most telling.

well, not a peep on the hearing on the NewsHour

well, not a peep on the hearing on the NewsHour

I am SHOCKED, shocked I tell you

what lhp said.

(can I use an eco-friendly torch?)

did you read the previous post? about how money is being collected to use against dem party leaders?

Yikes:

“The document, which is official US Special Forces policy, directly advocates training paramilitaries, pervasive surveillance, censorship, press control, restrictions on labor unions & political parties, suspending habeas corpus, warrantless searches, detainment without charge, bribery, employing terrorists, false flag operations, concealing human rights abuses from journalists, and extensive use of “psychological operations” (propaganda) to make these and other “population & resource control” measures palatable. “

Oh yes. I keep thinking of Laith (killed in the Arbaeen massacres along with his wife. Who wrote this:

You should remember something else. A people and their army who behave like this abroad invariably bring this criminal and brutish behaviour home and turn it against their own people. It is not only revolutions that eat their own.

Posted By: Laith Posted On: 11.21.2006