McClatchy keeps doing actual journalism…and so far they let us actually cite them without lawsuits too!
And, as before, their journalism shows us the depraved nature of what we have allowed to happen by our "selected" Administration:
The U.S. military hid the locations of suspected terrorist detainees and concealed harsh treatment to avoid the scrutiny of the International Committee of the Red Cross, according to documents that a Senate committee released Tuesday.
"We may need to curb the harsher operations while ICRC is around. It is better not to expose them to any controversial techniques," Lt. Col. Diane Beaver, a military lawyer who’s since retired, said during an October 2002 meeting at the Guantanamo Bay prison to discuss employing interrogation techniques that some have equated with torture. Her comments were recorded in minutes of the meeting that were made public Tuesday. At that same meeting, Beaver also appeared to confirm that U.S. officials at another detention facility — Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan — were using sleep deprivation to "break" detainees well before then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld approved that technique. "True, but officially it is not happening," she is quoted as having said.
A third person at the meeting, Jonathan Fredman, the chief counsel for the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center, disclosed that detainees were moved routinely to avoid the scrutiny of the ICRC, which keeps tabs on prisoners in conflicts around the world.
So the Bush Administration regularly practiced the "tin-horn dictatorship" tactics we spent literally decades decrying from whatever dictator we did not like at the moment [kindly ignore much of Central & Latin America please]. Decrying the actions of the old Soviet Union and China in hiding prisoners from the Red Cross used to be a staple of American foreign policy and the respect for human rights.
But in one fell swoop George Bush and Dick Cheney undermined it all.
So it’s comforting that John McCain has so many of Bush’s war horses acting as his advisers. Like James Woolsey, who had the temerity to accuse Obama of being "naive" and "delusional" and having a September 10, 2001 mindset yesterday because the later seems to respect the ancient concept of habeas corpus and something called the Constitution. All of which are apparently null and void to John McCain.
Of course, James Woolsey knew right after September 11th who was likely responsible for it all — Saddam Hussein. As Josh Marshall noted, Woolsey even thinks Saddam is responsible for the Murrah Building being bombed in Oklahoma City in 1995. Woolsey seems to spend an awful lot of his free time whole-heartedly endorsing Laurie Mylroie’s craziest ideas — which is really saying something.
And somehow, James Woolsey, PNAC charter member and wrong-on-every-thing is out there flacking for John McCain and being quoted instead of derided and mocked.



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Jus Cogens!
Good morning, Attaturk. Have you seen this NYT Editorial?
I guess it depends on whose ox is being waterboarded.
I can’t understand why conservatives who are using the argument that Boumedienne vs. Bush was a disaster because U.S. judges can’t be trusted to do the right thing do not realize they are condemning our entire legal system.
Morning Attaturk. Watched a little of Levin’s hearing yesterday and was dumbfounded by the lies trotted out out by administration flunkies. Got the impression that Levin may have been laying some heavy duty foundation for future action. (in my dreams)
Thanks for the post. Morning pups.
I believe your lack of understanding stems from a flawed assumption. The current crop of conservative is deeply authoritarian, and will cheerfully (if not openly) condemn our entire legal system, excepting those parts that preserve privilege (Hi, Associated Press!).
Judges that actually follow the law instead of the dictates of Dear Leader are a dangerous threat to the new Republican World Order, and must be quashed posthaste.
Ok so what else does Nancy need lets start impeachment hearings after Bush and Darth are taken out Nancy can be President until the election.
read more jere with video
we not only get less actionable information from the captive himself, we also galvanize the forces against us creating more terrorists, more terrorism
we create a populace that hates us where moderates become extremists and extremists become heroes
anyone who was inclined to come forward with information never will
but the worst part of all this, the administration knew this would be the effect, the only purpose of policies of torture is to create unrest, to create an “us against them” mentality for the populace, to fuel the forces against you
and to create perpetual insurgency
this is the only purpose of torture and they knew it
but the worst part of all this, the administration knew this would be the effect, the only purpose of policies of torture is to create unrest, to create an “us against them” mentality for the populace, to fuel the forces against you
Has the army or anyone else done studies on this? This explains why we are loosing in Iraq.
clark told the administration we would fuel the insurgency if we invaded Iraq, the army told the administration if we have policies of torture we would harm our own soldiers
the fbi told the adminsitration torture aquires less information
I don’t have links though, sorry, it would make a great piece if someone would put together all that information to document that these results are exactly what the administration was after
I think they’re not smart enuf to have planned this outcome (ditto 9/11) but are not unhappy that it happened.
Morning Attaturk,
Thanks for spotlighting this disturbing series on the disturbing truth.
Perris, the other day ( a couple of weeks ago) you quoted a comment of mine to which you replied. The quote was, I believe, 26 words long. If I do not receive a cheque from you in the amount of $14.45 I fear I will have to take legal action. *g*
I know as a fact this administration was told they would gather less inteligence through torture
this is a cheney thing, he certainly knows the consequences, we also know as a fact cheney does whatever it takes to perpetuate war
it doesn’t take genious to create destruction, that takes being a madman, there is no competance you need to associate with the fact that they knew they would be creating more unrest when they initiated their policies of torture, no competance what so ever
Good morning, pups. It’s MoDo and Friedman today. MoDo’s column is titled “American President Pleads Guilty to Hopeless Idealism,” and she says that on a recent visit to London, George W. Bush chatted up historians but dispensed with the 21st century. Mr. Friedman gives is “Iraq: Still Inscrutable.” He says what we do next in Iraq — how and why — is barely getting discussed in the presidential campaign. It might be useful to start talking about it.
http://mgpaquin.wordpress.com/
The coffee and tea are ready, and I’ve got a bunch of bagels and cream cheese. The radio just told me that it may only be in the high 80s or low 90s today, and the temps may dip into the 60s tonight. Ahhhhh… Have a great day.
I will give you that check, send to me snail mail address and it is on it’s way
Funny related story.
I was visiting relatives in Poland in June 2001 (i.e., before 9/11). On one of our side trips we drove by a site with about 5′ walls and 2-3 story bldgs on the other side. My cousin said: “The Russians moved out and the Americans moved in.” Sometime in 06 or 07, I discovered that it was one of the secret rendition sites.
The way the Americans & Russians were conflated by my counsin is telling. All big powers are alike.
Of course they were told, warned of the consequences. They just didn’t believe the warnings. Remember they got advice on all fronts and merely picked the ones that coincided with what they wanted to do.
One Q that wasn’t asked yesterday: Why would you want to use SERE techniques? If the U.S. trains against their effectiveness, don’t you think the enemy does too? Why would you want to start out using something that has a large chance of failure?
Wingnuts believe torture can be used to extract information so the A wouldn’t have been interestng. But at least the Q would have been on the record.
here’s what we do in Iraq to get some kind of progress;
arrest those responsible for pillaging their treasure
encourage the Iraqi’s to federalize all profit aquired during the occupation
offer those responsisble for the death and destruction up to the international community to be brought to the bar of justice
there is gonna be some kind of rebuilding pains when we leave IRaq, there will indeed be purging of ethnics and religous groups and it will likely be ugly
we’ze gonna be in for some rough ride 2 b sure
The phrase creating more terrorists by torture is hardly what’s happening. When you abuse people, if they ever get free or their friends and relatives find out, will obviously want to seek justice or “revenge” for the treatment.
When there is no legal forum to do so, those victimize will often and understandably choose to “fight back” or strike at the forces which are oppressing them or have tortured them, their friends and relatives. This is a completely natural and understandable response.
The term terrorism is really being used to describe those who have chosen to struggle or fight for whatever “reason” they may have at what they believe is the forces of oppression.
But one needs to consider that a few people can’t engage a power state apparatus, or even get at the individuals who may have abused and tortured them, who are responsible for their oppression. This creates a terribly assymetrical situation. You have the few who feel they have been abused and no means to have this addressed, or in most cases acknowledged so the oppressed will take a more generalized and politcal action and strike out against the society which has harmed them.
SO the actions of a few, or the policies of a few, carried out by the state apparatus, resulting in torture or abuse make the entire society vulnerable to the retribution of the aggrieved. We all are put in jeopardy by the abusers and torturers as we share the guilt and by condoning it or not stopping the oppression, torture etc. we have to fear random retribution.
A fair amount of the strikes which we call “terrorism” are aimed at symbols of oppression. Even if you accept that 9.11 was an act of terrorism, the targets were the US Pentagon which for all intent and purposes is a military target and no different than when we “take out” command and control centers in Iraq or wherever. The twin towers can be seen as the seat of economic oppression and the raison d’etre for the militarism and empire which uses torture and abuse to control and exploit people around the world.
The west has inserted itself in the lives of virtually everyone around the globe, controlling, exploiting, oppressing, taking their rights, their land, polluting it, destroying their cultures and the list goes on. How can you not expect “reaction” to this aggression?
The “right” wants this sort of power, control and empire and see nothing wrong with this as they feel superior and in many cases don’t consider the oppressed and abused as good for anything except economic exploitation or instruments of wealth creation. These people will use anything to acheive their objectives, including lying, torture, killing, war… you name it. But they will always package their actions in doublespeak… as in “our strategic interests”… “spreading democracy” or even ” creating a “new world order”… since the old world chaos was unacceptable.
And the oppressors rely on patriotism and nationalism and “US exceptionalism” to rally the naive to support these heinous policies, to fight and kill and torture and essentially create the hatred around the world (and here) which results in reactions which they label “terrorism”… which is nothing more than insurgents and the “asymmetrical warfare” of the oppressed. Just as we abuse innocents, they strike at “our” innocents. When we drop bombs on entire villages or cities we indiscriminately kill and this includes innocents. This is no different that the terrorism we condemn when a bomb goes off in a cafe or the WTC.
War is terrorism today. It is not waged on battlefields where soldiers are arrayed against each other. That’s so passe. War is about killing, intimidating populations and torture is one way of doing that.
When you use an atomic bomb and destroy a city you have done an act of terrorism far greater than 9.11 because hundreds of thousands of innocent people were killed. it’s debatable whether this stopped the Japanese in WWII, but not that it was a terrorist and cowardly act.
Dropping bombs is still in our arsenal. Nuclear boms, Shock and Awe, carpet bombing, cluster bombs, white phosphorus, DU, land mines are all instruments of death and terror rained down on civilians.
The US is the leader in terrorism and on an unmatched scale. And it is easy to understand that we torture and use any tactic to intimidate in our arsenal or terrorism which serves the “empire”.
It’s that simple.
Until we support a just society, here and abroad, we will be the perpetrators of the unjust society. We will be the victimizers, the torturers and all of us will become targets of a world wide insurgency.
No justice – No peace.
I agree. History will no doubt show cheenee and bush both to be certifiably mad. Only mad men could live in such a bubble and convince themselves the righteousness of their actions.
Further:
This Administration’s words and actions have done more to further the casue of radical Islam than any terrorist organization could hope.
In, fact, the majority of OBL’s objectives depended on US reaction.
OBL could never have never toppled the secular Hussein regime which stood in the way of reseating the Caliphate. Nor did he have the resources to move US bases off of Saudi soil.
He had a few millions and at best, maybe a thousand (more likely a couple hundred capable) warriors.
So he launched an asymmetric attack on a superpower, and hoped for an asymmetric response against a 3rd party which would destabilize the MidEast and generate positive interest in his cause.
If we are to look at truly transformative dates, 9-11 must be accompanied by 2-20-2003 and 04-28-2004 the dates of the Invasion of Iraq and the 60 Minutes report that showed the world that the US tortured prisoners.
but ecahnm we know as a fact cheney does whatever it takes to perpetuate war, he did it under nixon and they “create unrest in the middle east” is one of the principles of the sick fraternity of maniacs he is a member, the pnac
I believe he absolutely knew his policies at abu graeb would create just the envirnment he wanted, unending insurgency
remember, he deliberately did not protect their infrastructure, allowing the mining fields to go under attack, the electricity,the water
he allowed the looting of hospitols, museums, temples
this is deliberate, there is no question these are the results they were after
remember the shock doctrine
and don’t forget, when told he better guard the stockpiles of military ordinance, of course the first thing he did was fail to guard that ordinance
and of course to allow the Iraqi military to go without jobs is bad enough, but to allow them to disband and keep their weaponwry?
I’m sorry, this is clearly dleiberate
OBL told the world that the objective of attacks on the US was to goad them into action which would destabilize the secular governments of his region.
I agree sander o, it would be hard to call these acts against us terrorism if applied against the military or our government
but regardless of cause, when attacks are aimed at civilians that is indeed terrorism.
but I agree with your larger point
if the president were given a play book, “what to do to help bin laden”, this president read it and did everything that would facilitate the goals of the man
it is indeed as if bush and company are playing on for the oposite team and if this were a novel nobody would give it credibility that the people did not see there was a traitor calling the plays
One thing seems highly certain. We probably won’t know the truth of it in our lifetimes.
Perris always has sensible approaches to solving the problems. The trouble is we see them as problems and those who are responsible for the outrages see them as “sound policy” which is furthering their agenda. THEY have the power to continue on… and WE have little tools to fight it.
Our legislators failed us and gave away our rights and let the constitution be trashed. Our courst have been packed with fascists from the “property class” who make their acts legal or when not dismiss them and put them outside the reach of the legal system. The 4th Estate was taken over by corporations who care only for profit and wealth. The corps figured out that they can buy the government and get at the people’s treasure and use the blood to extract more wealth. The military is hardly anything more than a corporation which uniforms and weapons. It too extracts enormous wealth and is used by the property class to oppress.
But it’s all about the greatness of America and being patriotic.
WAKE up and see what we have become.
I believe neither thinks they are rightous in their actions, I believe they each know and knew the destruction and ever lasting unrest they were creating
I do not believe for one moment they thought or think what they have done was “right”, it was for profit and power
they are sociopaths not idiologues
I could not agree more with this post
Nothing to do with righteousness. Simply all about greed, power and “racism”. They see the world as their oyster and want to own it, lock stock and barrel. How they do it is lie, cheat, steal, kill torture, bribe.
It’s the result that matters to them – control and power. (their’s and their buds)
I wonder if there is anyway to charge Nancy with war crimes for not going after Bush now?
we do know the truth of what cheney has done in the past, we do know he created false data to undermine nixon’s detante, we do know he created false data to attack Iraq and we do know his sick fraternity did whatever it would take to create middle east unrest
I don’t think there is any doubt, middle east unrest was the goal, peace and security was not
Thank you for the link…at least, some serious publicity.
Terrorism is defined as acts against innocents.
But this is how all conflicts are now waged. We are completely OK with using this approach.
So basically you can’t go around screaming we have to fight terrrorism… it’s so horrible… when WE have adopted this approach as OUR means of war to serve OUR agenda of hegemony.
We ARE terorists and have been since slavery.
the editorial is nice at best, it’s hardly representative of what is being done with warentless wiretapping
the administration and ANY official is given license to steal from us, that is the only reason they don’t want a judge to make certain the information they are after is for the purpose of natioanl security
it’s the only purpose and the nyt just doesn’t get it, they are using the “violates our civil rights” angle and that does not do the issue justice
Cheney is not nearly as consistent in his behavior as you make him out to be. Remember, he’s the one who stood against marching on to Baghdad in the first Gulf war, as the most outstanding example. I don’t know of any others offhand, but I do know that people tend to have selective memories when it comes to collecting data to support thier hypotheses.
Um, how about nearly eradicting the indigenous population?
I cannot argue the point, in the end, this president’s policies were not only those of a terrorist, they indeed created terrorism in the wake
I do not buy it, I believe it was bush who stood against the action and cheney was repeating bush’s edict
There’s no doubt that those who crave power need a praetorian guard and so there must be nasties out there and so a standing army is maintained.
The whip up some conflicts and spread the military around and grow it larger and larger. Then it becomes a self fulfilling bureaucracy. They need conflicts to justify their existence and so they really do create them.
terrorism
the systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. Terrorism has been practiced by political organizations with both rightist and leftist objectives, by nationalistic and religious groups, by revolutionaries, and even by state institutions such as armies, intelligence services, and police.
the man created his own devision of the cia, “team b” because the professionals told him what he wanted them to say was bull crap
he did it under nixon, he did it for Iraq and he’s doing it again in Iran
this is not selective memory it’s “making up crap so you can create unending war”
Clicking around this morning, scarmouth informed me that most Americans don’t care whether detainees are tortured (paraphrased but not by much)….ah, yes….perfect replacement for timmy.
If there were breakfast in my stomach, it would be gone.
most people have been desensitized and missinformed, if they knew we lost information because of torture, if they knew we created more insurgents because of torture, if they knew people were less likely to come forward because of torture, they would care
however the media is giving them the ticking time bomb scenario which whether true or not, most people agree with
The power freaks were sensitive about any crack in the veneer of US power which needed to be “restored” after the trouncing in SE Asia. We needed what appeared to be a complete victory and they knew that if we went all the way and tried to take out Iraq we would have what we have today – another defeat on our hands – another Nam.
We will get kicked out of Iraq, although they are trying to keep the real estate as their forward bases for control and intimidation of the region.
We will never see a pro US gov in Iraq and so we either completely destroy the country (Cheney and his buds are OK with that, but won’t say it) or we install another shah type and that is not going to happen. All they want is the oil and gas and a few rugs.
correct, there is no winning an occupation, you either negotiate a peace, you lose or you anialte the populace
those are the options
Congratulations to Donna Edwards in Maryland yesterday.
The Republican count in the House (not counting Steny Hoyer) is
down to 199.
To paraphrase Grover Norquist and Larry Craig, we need to
shrink the GOP until it’s small enough to drown in the bathroom stall.
but not only more democrats, better is important
You also forget that Cheney wasn’t the only power player pressuring for decisions in one way or another. Rumsfeld was in & out in 30 days, didn’t care what happened afterwards. (Got that on authority of my army major efried who was his gofer at the time.) The actual outcome is a complex mixture of, not a simple straightforward plan.
I find the assertion that someone knows what went one in someone else’s mind and what went on in a complicated foreign policy process to reek of the same hubris that we accuse W et al of. After all, they knew they were right too. (Title of book on neocons.)
There’s a letter in this morning’s Daily Disappointment from someone who may be a fairly typical area voter:
If there are lots like him Georgia may be in contention. (Letters to the Editor are about the only thing I’ll be able to share from the Daily Disappointment — almost everything else in the rag is pulled straight off the AP wire/toobz except local news.)
lol!
Mornin’ all!
Grassley’s up on CSPAN talking about the flooding and the crop damage
Ha. Grassely just suggested using Kartina as an example of what could be done in the midwest. Guess he has no sense of irony.
Here’s the lineup for Washington Journal
7:30-8:00 SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY R-Iowa
http://grassley.senate.gov
Topic: How the federal government is responding to Midwest floods. Congressional delegation’s and state government response to the flooding as well.
8:00 Hill hit (Crabtree)
8:00-8:30 COL. STUART HERRINGTON (RET.)
U.S. Army
http://www.army.mil
Topic: U.S. Interrogation Practices. Our guest is among 2 other government interrogators who will present at a forum in Washington today how the U.S. can most effectively interrogate alleged terror suspects
without resorting to torture or infringing upon newly established constitutional rights.
8:30-9:00 REP. JOHN TIERNEY D-Massachusetts, Oversight
Subcommittee on National Security – Chairman
http://www.house.gov/tierney
http://nationalsecurity.oversight.house.gov
Topic: Afghan stability, the reported resurgence of Taliban fighters and Al-Qaeda in several areas of the country, and U.S. policy toward the country. Rep. Tierney holds a hearing today on U.S. efforts to train & equip Afghanistan’s police force as well as its efforts to enhance the justice system.
9:00-9:30 Newspaper Articles/Phones
9:30 House gavels in, then out
9:30-10:00 Newspaper Articles/Phones
I’m off. Catch up later.
all we can do is look to the past to see their intentions, we know in the past as a fact cheney did not want peace, we know as a fact cheney invents data to have war, we know as a fact he invented it for detante, for Iraq, for Iran
we can’t crawl in his head but we can surely make valuable assertions
I wouldn’t crawl in there if I could, way too dark and way too scary
Scarecrow’s upstairscrow!
oops sorry about the bad link there
Scarecrow
I was away for eats and I must do some work now… I’ll check back.
Great post Attaturk! Johnny McTeleprompter doesn’t know it yet because he’s slow & delusional, but one of these days he’s going to figure out he is just like George Bush & Dick Cheney who all still have that pre-9/11 mindset! Oh boy is Johnny gonna be shocked!
As CIA chief Woolsey would have known that Bin Laden was USA-ma Bin Laden. Because USA-ma was paid by the USA that is CIA. His wahabbi mercenary army fought the Soviets for US taxpayers. Similarly the Taliban were financed by you and me, to create a military quagmire for the Soviets.
Now the United States is bogged down in a two genocidal occupations. Great Policy!. For Woolsey, it is great, PNAC, AEI, Iraki Deconstruction has rewarded him with lots of war profits. He is also into Homeland Oppression so I am guessing he is part of “MainCore”, just his kind of fascist thing.
“The military never used waterboarding, which simulates the experience of drowning, but the C.I.A. used it on three prisoners with the approval of the Justice Department.”
How can the NYT make such as statement without some qualification? How can anyone know this for a fact . . . “the military never used waterboarding”? And the CIA just three times?
They can’t. They just regurgitate what they are told.