Yesterday’s Supreme Court decision reaffirming the right of habeas corpus to Gitmo detainees didn’t just repudiate the Bush Administration’s six year effort to shield their shameful Gitmo prison system from judicial scrutiny. The Supreme Court majority also gave Senator and former Navy JAG Lindsey Graham an "F" for unconstitutional lawyering.
It was Graham who assured his colleagues that the procedures employed under the Combatant Status Review Tribunals (CSRTs) were both reasonable and an "acceptable substitute" for a federal habeas corpus hearing, even though the CSRT rules denied detainees the right to counsel and to know or challenge all the "evidence" used to justify their detention. In November 2005, Graham offered and vouched for the less than due process measures used by the CSRTs and then sponsored the amendments to strip federal courts of the right to hear habeas petitions.
It was Graham who argued Congress should replace normal court habeas review with a severely restricted review by the D.C. Circuit Court of CSRT decisions. And it was Graham who led efforts to defeat habeas’ restoration and fostered the sham that what eventually became the infamous Military Commissions Act was reasonable because it was superficially "better" than what the Administration originally proposed, an argument Justice Roberts relied on.
And who can forget that it was Graham, along with Senator Kyl, who also tried to deceive the Supreme Court about Congressional intent by inserting into a Conference Report a colloquy that in fact never occurred, to the effect that Congress intended to strip federal courts of habeas jurisdiction in Gitmo detainee cases on both pending and future cases.
Yesterday’s decision was a repudiation of Lindsey Graham’s lawyering. The court emphatically rejected the notion that the meager procedures used by the CSRTs were an adequate substitute for a normal habeas proceeding. And they rejected the view, strongly defended by Graham, that the Constitution allows Congress to strip federal courts of the power to hear habeas petitions in detainee cases.
Like the Bush Administration, Lindsey Graham pretended that the Supreme Court would accept sham procedures when the Constitution calls for due process. He pretended the Supreme Court would allow an Administration that has repeatedly lied — even to the courts — about its detention and interrogation practices and covered up senior officials’ role in ordering and orchestrating torture, to continue that system without Court oversight. And he bet that despite repeated Court warnings that the Great Writ was fundamental to human liberty and could not be diluted, that the Supreme Court would allow Congress and the Administration to restrict one of the most indispensable weapons federal courts have in checking egregiously unconstitutional behavior.
Given this history, the Supreme Court majority was simply not going to let an unprincipled Administration trample the Constitution, even if the outrage were perpetrated outside the US on non-US citizens. Marty Lederman at Balkinization cites the key signal:
On the basic habeas question, perhaps the most explanatory line of the majority opinion is this one: "The test for determining the scope of [the Suspension Clause] must not be subject to manipulation by those whose power it is designed to restrain." In other words, because the Government chose to detain these prisoners at GTMO for the very purpose of avoiding a judicial check on the legality of the detentions, the Court will ensure that the constitutional guarantee extends to the naval base.
(And see Lederman’s further discussion and the comments there on whether the Court’s habeas oversight might extend beyond Gitmo to other US detention facilities in other countries. Marcy has more at emptywheel.)
Cases like this are why we have a Supreme Court, why we call the Supreme Court a "co-equal" branch, and why the Court, at its best, has always served as the last defender of human dignity, but Lindsey Graham bet that was no longer true. His misunderstanding of the most basic role of the Court would get any second year law student an "F" in Constitutional Law. And John McCain, who apparently thinks the Great Writ is not that important, wants his Court appointments to be people like Roberts or Scalia, so they can fix his buddy Lindsey’s grade.
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So? Who’s surprised that Lindey is still a twerp?
And who’s surprised that I can’t spell this early? Great post, Scarecrow!
But he’s a weekend pretend JAG. How could he be wrong?
Replaying the pouting W not agreeing with the Court. Another twerp. Mamama, I dont like the decision. I wish he would take his toys and go home.
When is this slimeball up for reelection. South Carolina deserves better. Hell, any state deserves better.
crap – EPU’d. But since it’s arguably on-point, I’m bringing it up here:
Michael Mukasey, ersatz Attorney General, says that yesterday’s S.Ct. ruling on habeas for Gitmo prisoners will not affect the “trials” of those detained.
Interesting point. Seems to me that an unavoidable part of most habeas hearings is gonna have to involve prisoners saying essentially “look, all they’ve got on me, as evidence, came about as a result of my having been tortured and saying what they wanted to hear to make it stop.”
So – the question having now been begged, if cases such as those are found in civilian courts (and they will be), do the District Courts have the authority to order the outright release of those detainees? I think that they do.
Suck on it, Mr. “Attorney General”.
1,872 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Scarecrow and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
This is a great day for the anti-fascist movement to restore constitutional governance in the USofA…now we jest gotta inject some testosterone into our congressional leadership and start an impeachment inmqiry around this issue if only to get it out in front of the American public.
Now off to the North woods to slay walleyes and watch my grandkids discover the wilderness.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE WAR IS NOT TELEVISED BUT IT’S NOW IN ALL OUR LIVINGROOMS AND IN THE STREETS!!
Over the last few years I have grown a healthy respect for JAGs—mainly for those who stood up to the evil forces in the administration and tried to actually do their jobs. Graham, on the other hand, has shown everyone what an unprincipled toad he is. He kind of reminds me of the closeted guy in the film No Way Out that was Gene Hackman’s “helper.”
scribe posted something that warmed my heart and I sure hope we can take what he posted with this ruling;
scribe is a lawyer and I believe his interperatations with the ramifications are justified
this is great news indeed
hmmmm…..
Howie Klein has made a similar association, at least in some respects-
http://downwithtyranny.blogspo…..up-in.html
Just living in a neighboring state produces a feeling of contamination…and what’s almost as bad, there’s marsha blackburn on the west side. :-(
caw-CAW Scarecrow!
eXcellent takedown of Graham.
(btw where is Lou “caw-CAW” Costello?)
With all due respect Scarecrow, you get an “F” in Constitutional Law because there is no such thing. The law is what the Supreme Court says it is. We celebrate because the uncertain Kennedy voted as a so-called liberal rather than the conservative he often is. Roberts is a huge disappointment to me. I thought him intelligent enough to shed the prejudices he adopted to get him the job, but apparently he hasn’t and probably won’t. Things hang by a thread. That is not cause for celebration.
and I posted this yesterday but it’s an important point;
it’s just stunning to me the issue was even in question, of course a president can’t hold innocent people, of course he can’t write new law to keep people when they committed no crime, (until the president made up one in his own head just to hold that person), of course a president can’t make up crimes in his own head as a justification to hold people who did nothing other then that fantasy in the president’s own head, of course a person can show they committed no crime and of course they can know what crime the president is making believe they committed to prove they are innocent men
and of COURSE a subordinate can’t do anything of the sort in the president’s name or “with orders”, there are NO such orders
it is insulting, the very notion that a president can gather you up, or give someone else the “authority” to gather you up and not tell you what foolishness he thinks you committed or are making believe you committed, and then not give you the right to show you did not commit that foolishness, and then keep you there under the threat of torture
it is depraved, ridiculous and it is a sociopath who thinks as president he has the unitary privilege
no it is not
we defer to the supreme court but they are far from the last word
for instance, the supreme court could rule all they want that water from hence forward is dry
that would not make it dry however some might defer to their ruling
hhhhhmmmmmmmm indeed.
The character was Scott Pritchard and some of the bits on IMDB sound like you could substitute the name Lindsay Graham for his and McSame’s for Brice. Neither are very flattering if you remember the flick.
roberts relies on nothing but whatever conveniently agrees with what he wants the law to be
he is a justice who gathers information to support his idiology as oposed to a justice who forms his opinion based on the information gathered before them
would love to hear the Founders on this sneaking-stuff-into-bills-in-the dead-and-dark-of-night that goes on, apparently with alarming frequency.
You are right in the sense that the people can overrule the court but that means taking to the streets or something similar. In Connecticut our Supreme Court ruled that local property taxes was an unconstitutional way to support schools because richer communities spent more than poorer communities, the court recognizing the obvious fact that rich people have more money than poor people. The decision, which came down many years ago, was more or less ignored. The same thing happened with school bussing to achieve integration in schools. In some places it was violently opposed and this present supreme court overturned integration plans that were working.
Look at it another way. If Kennedy had gone the other way, which was a close thing I believe, what would you have done?
and what about adding paragraphs to law already approved by congress?
man, I would love to see those people prosecuted
In reality, we should be praising and deeply thanking Justices Stephens and Ginsburg for hanging in and staying in the fight long after they might have been wanting to step back from the bench. It has been fingernail biting time for quite a while and wishing them good health—all that has been standing between the megalomaniacs in the WH and the maintenance of some semblance of law and stability in the country.
All hail Justice Stephens and Justice Ginsburg. And thank you for your dedication to your country.
As for Kennedy and his opinion, well done. But I don’t trust that he will be reliable in the future.
has this been true of any supreme court other than the warren and burger courts?
I’d forgotten all about that movie. May be time to re-view it.
I must say I was heartened this morning listening to the callers in the open phone segment re: the Supreme Court ruling. They got it.
Of course the Constitution means whatever five Justices say it is, but what’s your point? Unless you think laws come down on stone tablets carved by lightning, you’re always going to have humans making these choices, and our system, the ultimate choices on what the Constitution means are made by this Court.
The point is there were hundreds of years of precedent saying the Great Writ is critically important to how we think of ourselves, and we’d had six years of an Administration behaving egregiously and pretending that history didn’t apply to them. There was intense collision bound to happen. Sure, yesterday’s decision was narrow 5-4 — hanging by a thread as you say, but that’s happened lots of times in our history — but it was also predictable, especially since the court had signaled its strong support for not diluting habeas.
Graham and the Administration thought they could just bully the court into conceding the point on which the Courts institutional identity depends. That’s stupid lawyering, never mind the atrocious rules they wanted.
How could you possibly be disappointed with John Roberts? How could you not expect spread-your-cheeks-Roberts to fall into line with W?
hmmm… well I didn’t see the flick. But I did alert Howie to Scarecrow’s post. Howie has spoken very favorably of Scarecrow’s posts, from time to time.
I’ve said for some time that this is “The Kennedy Court” As he goes, so goes justice and democracy.
btw, does anyone know whether yesterday’s decision mandates any single or particular District Court for the hearing of habeas claims – or can the detainees’ lawyers pick a non-Repub-stacked court?
When the Movement Conservatives, and those telling mere mortals what Jesus says about all matter of issues, get control of the Supreme Court, they become THE MOST RADICAL, ACTIVIST Court imagineable.
Why aren’t we Liberals slamming and ramming, in the public airwaves, these Conservative Radical Judges pretending our Founding Fathers were conservatives, when, for their times, they were Liberals, Progressives, and Revolutionaries. Wearing knee pants and high socks in 1790 did not make a patriot a conservative.
I shed a tear almost every night for the damage that I believe become more difficult each day to repair
yesterday I rejoiced, there is not much we can do but speak out loud with outrage
until more of us ARE outraged
we ARE a nation under seige, we have been overthrown in a silent bloodless coup aided by the legacy of reagan and bush’s father
and we are in battered wifes syndrome, EACH of the crimes of this administration would have ASSURED impeachment before they began their depraved dismantling of our integrity
and now there are very few who will stand for their integrity and we sit and pray there will be elections and we pray our votes will not be flipped yet again nor our voters turned away
and we fear beyond fear the administration is depraved enough to begin yet another war to secure their indefinate seat in the power they took in their silent coup
didn’t expect all that for your question, did you
every time graham opines on the law from the floor of the senate, a dem should follow to remind us all of this bit of history and why no one should trust a word graham says.
I agree. While you’re at it put in a good word for Souter who’s come a long way. It is scary and it is close.
selise, send that off to your favorite critter, I believe they will take you up on that fine advice
From what Ive heard, the details are not specific with many things to be decided.
My point is the hundred years of precedent don’t’ mean diddly. Bush in Rome said he would follow the decision, but he hasn’t yet and we shall see. I suppose we should be grateful for small blessings.
off to clock in, will c all L8tr
My understanding is there are multiple district courts/judges involved — dozens of cases. One of the things Graham tried to do was eliminate all that and force all the detention “review” cases into the DC Circuit Court, and narrow what that court could consider.
Amen.
I only lifted up Stephens because he is getting quite old and has hung in there and Ginsburg because despite cancer has also stuck it out. Very grateful for Breyer and Souter too but they haven’t seemed to have been on the edge of retirement either for age or illness.
LOL.
barak obama, sept 2005:
Didya just hear the vet caller who reminded people that bush was made president by a 5-4 SC decision?
Now there’s a talkin’ point to keep in yer back pocket. *g*
NPR reported this morning that the supervising judge called a meeting yesterday of the judges that will hear cases. No mention of who they are or where they are from.
live and learn I always say
now that he isn’t beholdent to corporate contribution, perhaps he will do the peoples work hence and forward
My understanding is there are multiple district courts/judges involved
I hope that’s true. But it still kinda begs the question of which District Court a particular case might go to. I mean, an Afghan who was picked up (arguably for no good reason) has no “home district” providing natural jurisdiction of any particular district in the U.S.
I can hear the winger’s heads exploding now.
yeah, that was a good point; a Supreme Court decision is a decision, 9-0 or 5-4.
You bring up a point I mentioned previously but got no response. We the people have taken some serious blows from people like George Bush who broke the faith between the governors and the governed. He overstepped the limits big time, so the question is what can we the people do short of insurrection but more than writing our Congresspeople, something that gets us to trust each other sight unseen, something that uses the internet to return power to the people. I suggested during the writer’s strike that we stop going to the movies. It would have been a great display if we pulled it off. No interest at all. We need to think in terms of national legal protests. Not necessarily people in the streets carrying signs but more effective. I’m not sure what it will turn out to be. We should think about it and discuss it.
Kind of on point to your reminder that Kyl and Graham tried to insert a colloquy into the legislative record that wasn’t there, from the decision:
I guess Graham should have tried harder there.
Seriously though, as I’m rereading this, I see how much Kennedy emphasized that the detention part–as opposed to the trial part–justifying Gitmo is still an Executive Order.
And every time one does, a librul gets his/her wings. *G*
From the NYT article linked in the post:
doesn’t look like it.
that is why i don’t think we can wait to see what he’s going to do. now is the time to be pushing hard and holding his feet to the fire. he needs our support now – if he is to be our next president. now is the time we have the most leverage.
SouthernDragon -
#49 was comin’ your way.
I wouldn’t hold my breath.
I think of him and I think of the book the Fourth Procedure. A fantasy perhaps, but one that makes me smile.
Skoshi, little miss priss. Little six toed love sponge. Licks like a pupper.
As I understand it from the CCR conference call, in many of these cases there’s an order that the petitioner must restart his claim within 10 days of the Boumediene decision. So the courts are going to very quickly have 200 cases pending.
Also, a really important part of the decision is that judges have been instructed to offer some remedy to those determined via CSRT not to be enemy combatants–about 60 people. CCR thought that judges would be able to rule to send these men to third parties–some are asking not to be sent home (to torture regimes like Syria) but to third countries where they have family, but DOD has thus far not entertained this possibility.
So I expect the judges are getting together to decide what is in the realm of their authority on these issues and to decide how to deal with the case load.
I pretty much stopped going to the movies a while ago, mainly because there is little out there I want to see. My guess is that I’m not alone among liberals. Perhaps you heard crickets to your suggestion because it probably would have made little difference. Just my opinion.
not Obama, of course, but Roberts.
It’s true. I don’t go to the movies all that much either. We somehow have to finds ways to reach those who do.
emptywheel – is there a mp3 of the CCR conference call available?
Not that I know of. I was the only blogger that asked a question so I don’t know who, if anyone else, was there. And I was juggling several other things at the same time.
It’s a pity, though, bc if I had taped it, you could hear my dog barking loudly just as I went off mute to ask my question.
(bows) Konnichiwa, SouthernDragon.
beautiful, what a sweet tiger. thank you!
How bad is that? I’m the same way. There was a time when I was a true movie freak. Thought nothing of seeing 2-3 in a day (lived in LA at the time). Now it’s just garbage. One or 2 a year maybe.
It’s going to be a whirlwind of a 10 days. So how will the courts beef up their staff that quickly?
Maybe that’s why there was a power outage this morning in DeeCee—all those fax machines whirring.
Patrick Cockburn up on WJ re Sadr
Thanks for the book tip. I’d never heard of it, but it sounds interesting so I ordered.
The only problem,is the court almost DID allow all of this.
For those who haven’t seen it, Marcy has a summary of the conference call at her emptywheel site. And the discussion/comments are worth reading through.
Don’t ask me how… The folks I work with, who are completely and totally up to date on all movies, music, who’s Dancing With the Stars, and what’s happening on American Idol, had to be informed that Sen. Obama had clinched the nomination. I despair sometimes…
One of the few books I ever read that I couldn’t put down. Seriously. Read all day one day. Had to sleep. Got up the next morning and finished it.
More relevant now than ever.
I know it’s OT, but there actually are quite a few good movies that come out each year. Trouble is, they typically aren’t in very wide distribution, so it’s often not easy to see them in theaters. But now with Netflix there’s a lot of decent stuff pretty readily available.
Actually now that I think about it, it would make a great movie. I bet Jane could write the. best. screenplay. ever. Very timely.
Knowledge, Skills and Attitudes
Competence in the medical profession is defined as demonstrated ability in all three of these attributes. Failures in the first two can usually be remediated, but a failure of the latter usually means that someone needs to be drummed out of the profession. We know how to impart facts and train skills, but nobody knows how to create a conscience in someone who lacks it.
Perhaps lawyers define their own professional competence differently. The folks who enforce the rules often bend them in their own favor. But if Graham is to be judged by these standards, I would think that the failure of competence here is clearly not a lack of knowledge or skills, but simply that Graham has no conscience to shock. He needs to be drummed out of his profession in the law, and then out of the Senate.
lol.
well, for future calls, if you are willing – please let me know if there is anything i can do to help make it easy for you. the combination of the the primary source and your interpretation is a powerful one – as we’ve seen in your working threads.
(bows) Konnichiwa, selise.
Tried on and picked up tux for the mucky-muck wedding manana. Everybody in the store had to gather around to see the DFH in a tux with new black Chucks. I gotta feeling this is gonna be fun. Tux, Chucks, and earrings. Can’t wait.
does this mean you’ll be updating your FB picture? *g*
Damn, ya know, I never thought of that. Prolly not though. Probably give the impression I’m a reich instead of left winger.
Will there be pix??? DFHs in tuxes make fun pix…!
Good luck with the black flies. I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would subject himself to that punishment, even for walleyes.
So the Atty General, the lawyer of the people is “disappointed” by the SCOTUS ruling that says that people are entitled to due process when we lock them up in territory that we control. Disappointed that the rule of law is being followed.
Words fail.
Good Morning Scarecrow and Firepatriots,
I know it was only by a whisker but am still celebrating –
even us non lawyers could see from the earliest dispatches of the decision that Justice Kennedy was laying the smack down on these treasonous pricks – exposed now and forever
oh, and Jonathan Turley for SCOTUS !
Oh, I imagine there’ll be lotsa pix. LOL. Question is how long will it take to get hold of them.
When Graham sold his soul to the Bush family, he lost any lawyering skills he had. However, he did secure is spot in the Bush Wing of Hell.
Hope you have watched JT on KO last night. He was not pulling ANY punches.
Good morning.
It just amazes me that these people live on such a different planet than the rest of us. They have the idea the SC is there to do their bidding. Is it January yet?
Words fail.
Not really – you’re just holding ‘em back (as will I) *s*
McShitForBrains’ 2005 appearance on Meet Timmeh the Toady is up at C & L.
They do consider themselves to be members of the ruling class.
221 days to go…
mornin’ baby – nope, not yet but my dfh intuition tells me Roberts and Scalia do not fare well in his assessment :D
not fit for polite company.
man I would love one of the congress critters to ask our ag;
“what do you mean it’s disapointing that an innocent person shouldn’t be allowed to prove their innocence?…what country do you think you work for?”
man I would love to see his face
And Susie
And our own Attaturk
And over at Booman.
The more the merrier.
Please digg Scarecrow’s post, it’s a precise, clear, and unique examination of the SCOTUS decision.
and reddit it
http://www.reddit.com/info/6n8kw/comments/
and spotlight it, too
the face never changes. It is frozen in scorn. He sold his soul to the devil long ago and those in the legal profession who thought he was and OK guy have been eating lots and lots of crow.
What scares me is that this fellow was on the Federal Bench for 18 years.
in case you haven’t seen it -
Compare and Contrast
Obama and McCain statements on the decision
Patrick Cockburn on C-Span – “It’s a *little* bit safer (in Iraq), but not much. Every Iraki will tell you that that could chnage in, literally, ten minutes. There is still an extraordinary amount of violence in Baghdad. So I think it is very dangerous to say that things have gotten so much better.”
And people like him will be hearing the cases of the 200 who have been rotting in jail for 6 years. How does that make us feel?
Which Justice was it that said that “We are at war with radical Islam”, or something like that? What a crazy thing for a Judge to say. It’s one thing for Cheney to spout off that nonsense, but for a Judge to claim that that line gives any credence to Guantanamo is crazy.
Also pissed at Mukasey’s lame response, which basically acknowledges the Court’s decision and at the same time ignores it. This guy relies on the weakest rationalizations. Let’s call him, Sit on his Ass Mukasey.
Turley and Graham held almost identical viewpoints, as far as I could tell, during the Clinton impeachment. I don’t know if Turley has had a change of philosophy, or just views impeachment as a facile tool in the congressional toolbelt, equally availaible for lies over personal sex life and crimes against the Constitution and humanity.
Let’s call him, Sit on his Ass Mukasey.
That works. so does “Lied to The Judiciary Committee Mukasey” – or “Chuck Schumer’s Daily Humiliation”
From the McCain statement,
What the hell does he mean by the part I’ve bolded?
Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
I would like to pay attention to the part I emboldened as well
what the hell does he mean “unlawful combatants”, how the HELL would he know they are unlawful ANYTHING, they have NOT been tried
Way I read it he means disregard the actual SC decision and go by Robert’s vote against.
If nothing else, it needs to be played that way. It’s just more evidence of what an idiot the man is.
Good Morning everyone….. quite a bunch of Senators we have here in Arizona…. Kyl I want to remove habeus and McBush I’m not like Bush…
Good point.
if you’re busy with the wedding and can’t stop by tomorrow am – have a blast at the wedding and get lots of pix !
thanks for the adorable kitteh pix
my real point revdeb is we should put a face on what he is saying ourselves
“habeas corpus” is far too obscure for most people to understand, rather, “innocent people not allowed to prove they are”, or “people who commited no crime, crime written so we can make believe we are justified”, or ” when someone wants to steal another persons business all they have to do is make believe they are enemy combatants and that person will not be able to prove they are framed”
WE need to add the face of reality to “habeau corpus”, that is my point
That is really scary. The McBush 2 who will interpret the law as he wants it to be, make it up, enforce the minority dissent. Wow, another Prez swearing to uphold the Constitution if he wants to…
True. I think it’s inherently difficult for a population that has always been protected by habeas corpus to understand what its loss would mean to them.
I base my nomination soley on his KO and blog appearances -
where he uses terms like – “torture”, “impeachable”, “criminal”, and “illegally spying on us all”
will have to do some googling and see what he says about the 1999 Republics Tea Party
In fairness, he did go on to utter some platitude about moving on, but to make the initial assertion at all is just outrageous IMO.
How does Scalia reconcile his “originalist” views with this new idea of giving the President king-like powers?
As has been frequently said: Then they came for me – and by that time there was nobody left to speak up. Nothing can explain it better than that. Bush’s idea is that he can arrest anyone (including any of us!) and hold us indefinitely without any due process. If that is not the main thing that the Constitution was written to prevent then I don’t know what it was for.
Sure there are some unsavory (or even criminal/terrorist) guys among those at GITMO, but Bush’s process has made it more difficult to tell apart the criminals and the innocent. In addition, Bush’s process has made it more difficult, and thus unlikely, for the real criminals/terrorists at GITMO to be tried. I am sure Jose Padilla is not a nice guy, but what was done to him could be done to any of us and we would be left to rot in jail. If Padilla or any of the GITMO prisoners have committed a crime, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, but WITHIN the parameters of our legal system (with habeas corpus being the cornerstone).
I do not celebrate Bush’s defeat as much as I celebrate that the rule of law has prevailed, for now.
This is OT, but we’re getting to the bottom here, so I hope it’s okay.
Check out this video
http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/87029/
Sexist Tone In The Media…
Amen to that! This decision gave me the feeling that the clouds are parting, but I am afraid to be too optimistic.
This and all that crazy shit about KSM and gay marriage and being allowed to huddle with the other defendants to intimidate them into dismissing their lawyers so that the show trial can be done in time for the elections.
…all that makes me realize that it has much less to do with them and their evil deeds and everything to do with who Americans are and what we stand for. Of course we should act in our own self interest (e.g., maybe consider not executing any convicted terrorists so as not to feed the hydra syndrome by making martyrs of them), but we should stick to the founding principles and the rule of law.
well, but that’s just it. The govt has to prove they are guilty and they have very little if any evidence on the majority of the detainees. And what they do have on the others may be tainted by torture. So they are desperate to change the rules since they can’t even play let alone win by the usual ones.
I know. I was just alerting you that earlier, there was a totally different side of him. At that time, I consindered him anathema. I strongly agree with what he has had to say regarding the current admininstration.
Roberts said the procedures we set up are more generous than we’ve ever given to detainees from other countries . . . so what’s the big deal.
I thought it interesting that McCain did not cite Scalia — to the effect that this decision will result in lots of Americans being killed by those Islamofascists.
And both Roberts/Scalia lamented that the majority seemed to be setting up a test for when habeas is available that might extend to people we’re holding in Afghanistan and other countries.
The legal commenters over at Balkanization said, “that’s right; and if the Administration had not behaved so badly for six years, the court never would have suggested such an unprecedented extension of judicial review.” This is a decision in which the Supremes are saying, “we don’t trust this Administration, so we’re going to keep an eye on them no matter where they operate.”
It’s ironic that an Administration infamous for pushing far beyond the bounds of its Constitutional authority is now shocked, shocked, that the Supreme Court would react the same way — effectively expand its own review to rein in an out of control Executive.
I think it would be pretty easy to get across the idea of being thrown into jail with no hope of seeing a lawyer, having a trial, or knowing why you were in jail. Ask folks if they’d like it to happen to them, or to their loved ones.
Christy has a new post up. Take care everyone.
No argument, Marion. Wouldn’t be nice if our MSM would frame the issue in those terms? Until that happens, I think most Americans just aren’t going to “get it”.
And there is a brief and good discussion of the case at Salon. com.
Your posts are ordinarily great, this one was extraordinary. Thank you, Scarecrow.
To put it another way: If you were to put an interviewer on the street in Atlanta to ask passers-by, at random, to explain the meaning and significance of habeas corpus, what percentage do you imagine would give a coherent explanation? How would the results differ in other Georgia cities and towns? Rhetorical question. Just something to think about.
yes Scarecrow, thanks so much for this terrific piece – damn we are so spoiled here
Amen, Scarecrow. You are truly a treasure. Thanks for being here for us each Monday, Wednesday, and Friday morning.
Many of those passing by may not be able to explain on their own, but they can understand the concept, the explanation. That we cannot be arbitrarily imprisoned…without grounds, evidence, etc. We do not live, supposedly, in that kind of country and such a principle has operated for centuries. You know, one of the great Biblical prophetic calls in both the New and Old testament is “set the prisoners free.” That call should have meaning for fundamentalists as well as liberals; it was part of Jesus’ inaugural sermon. How vital, then, are liberty and its assurance?
Oh, cripes… Now I’m REALLY depressed… (just kidding). My guess is you’d be lucky if you could come up with 5% who would have any idea what you were talking about.
Bilbo – was trying to find something for you and Marion -
years ago in the SF Bay Area Melvin Belli made commercials (for a furniture store ?) wherein he was given the time to explain basic legal stuff – one of the most memorable was Habeus Corpus – “Produce the Corpse!” beautifully tight spot explaining it’s history and fundamental importance – it really stuck with so many people as you could hear folks repeating his lesson whenever the term came up
True enough, but when do they ever have the concept explained to them? If they don’t get it from the MSM, where else are they going to get it from? And if that never happens, they’ll not achieve the desired understanding.
Ah, but if you asked someone, “suppose you were arrested for no reason at all and were thrown in a prison without any rights to challenge why you were there. Would you support a process that allowed you to ask an impartial judge to require your jailors to explain why it was legal/necessary to jail you? And if they couldn’t convince the judge, you’d get to go free?” — I think you’d get a very favorable answer. The concept is so simple, so basic to fairness, so intrinsically appealing to our notions of justice — there’s a reason it’s been around for hundreds of years.
The 4 dissenters might concede this for Americans, but somehow can’t grasp that it’s an important human right, and that when our own government denies that fundamental right to other humans, it’s not okay. McCain, Graham, Roberts, et al just don’t get it because they think of their “tribe” as very limited.
I do not really have an answer, of course. But I think people are paying attention. We know now this was an illegal war, the election is getting alot of press. Decisions like this produce a teachable moment sometimes. The audience could be everyone other that the 22% ers.
Right, Scarecrow, but for most people the question is never framed this way. To most of us Habeas is a black hole abstraction. That’s the problem.
Hope you’re right, RevBev. Enough of my depressing talk for today. ;D
Interesting perspective. It has the ring of truth. Maybe that kind of parochialism is OK if you’re Liechtenstein, but when you’re a country that inserts its power into the affairs of so many other tribes, that perspective goes very much awry.
Ditto…http://www.tagg-theangrygayguy.com
And that was a big part of the decision…..can’t say Gitmo is
Cuba anymore, so other rights are available. Bingo.
Sorry for got the link…http://www.tagg-theangrygayguy.com
From this piece:
Wow, just, wow. Thank goodness this is little more than bluster. Thanks TAGG.
Echoing the sentiments….How can anyone think W is an informed legal authority? He’s an outlaw.
And what does Graham want the Constitution to say? That the US is against Habeas Corpus? Or, it is only available to the elite? Those like us? etc etc etc. I love it when the Rs act crazy, and that is happening all the more though one wouldn’t have thought that possible.
test (h/t dkos)
LOL. That telegraph key is pretty badly out of adjustment.
This tool is my Senator, to my great dismay. I express this dismay to him on a regular basis, though the response is always boilerplate bullshit. I called just last week to ask why he voted against the GI Bill. I get little pleasure from bashing his staff, in this case a nice young lady, who really failed badly at explaining (how could she) Graham’s reasoning.
I usually ask that Sen. Graham call me personally. I won’t hold my breath. A great friend of mine was involved in the preparation and presentation of the oral argument before the Court. I’ve never been prouder to know someone. He’s still concerned that there are holes that the administration could use to stall or preempt the decision’s finding. God damn Bush, and God damn Graham to hell.
I wonder if Lindsey was relying on info that his “friends” on the Court gave to him. Is it possible that Roberts and company were the unoffical advisers for Lindsey’s work? If so, maybe that would explain the blood vessel bursting disent by Scalia.
I’m not a lawyer, Constitutional or otherwise, but Scalia’s declaration, “America is at war with radical Islamists.” sounds like an overblown political opinion and not close to a legal fact.
America is continuing its military occupation of the two countries we invaded in 2002. But that does not comprise being “at war” with radical Islamists (whoever they are).
Scalia sounds like a legal idiot.
i believe the late GREAT steve martin did something like that, ages and ages ago, inquiring if they knew soandso was running and was “heterosexual” or “thespian” or something, and it was hilarious because, like all things abundantly funny, it was so so tragic. i have a bootleg, must go find.
no, not steve martin, who do i mean/? steve-erino, you know,…?
steve allen. so so sorry. but still…
i love wikipedia. and more than ever, i love steve allen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Allen