What I'm hearing is that Hoyer and Kit Bond want debate to begin in the Senate next week...but I heard from another source that they didn't bother going through the leadership channels to set this up before they started pushing it. Potentially a big mistake in the land of egos.
Especially since Hoyer, Bond and Rockefeller appear to be going behind the backs of both Pat Leahy and John Conyers -- cutting both Judiciary Committee chairs out of the discussions altogether in a massive turf refutation. Talk about trying to cut the legal legs out from underneath a civil liberties question. Will Leahy and Conyers allow themselves to be gelded this way? Guess we'll see. As CQ reports:
Congressional leaders and the Bush administration have reached an agreement in principle on an overhaul of surveillance rules, sources familiar with negotiations said Friday....
Under the last version of the Bond proposal, the FISA court would get to review, in advance, the process by which the administration chooses foreign surveillance targets who may be communicating with people in the United States. No warrants would be needed in such cases, though, and the executive branch could begin its warrantless surveillance program before the FISA court review in "exigent," or urgent circumstances.
Caroline Fredrickson, the Washington director of the American Civil Liberties Union, said that sources told the ACLU the deal would sunset after six years unless Congress renewed it.
The deal was hammered out Thursday night at a meeting that included Hoyer, Bond, Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV, D-W.Va., House Minority Leader Roy Blunt, R-Mo., and representatives from the Bush administration.
The fact that we are hearing about the backstage maneuvers at all says a lot of things, but it squares up with another rumor I heard earlier in the week from a Hill staffer -- that Hoyer and Rockefeller have tied their egos into getting something passed because their names have become synonymous with a cave-in on this issue.
But according to my source at the ACLU, Rockfeller did not attend Hoyer and Bond's presentation. Trouble in paradise?
Also from my Hill staffer source, I hear that Steny has been pushing this issue awfully hard, and that's been rubbing a number of Democrats in the House the wrong way -- particularly in light of the stronger stand they took the last time this issue came up. Including the stand that Hoyer took at the time. Especially since what it sounds like is that Steny doesn't have the votes in the House for his current machinations, that this is all about the Blue Dogs making CYA demands, and Hoyer's trying to pawn off his failure to sell this in the House onto the Senate.
I have disagreed all along with Rockefeller's position on this, but I get where he is coming from given his personal propensity toward deal-making, comity, and having his "protect national security in a bi-partisan manner" buttons pushed all at the same time by the intel community on this.
The YouTube above is a clip of Hoyer on the House floor talking about how the FISA law is in place, protects the American public, and how the Bush Administration chose to break the law. What's changed since March 15, 2008? Why sing a new tune now?
The big question in my mind: what's in it for Steny?
UPDATE: KagroX has a thorough post on this as well. Do read it!
UPDATE #2: From the ACLU:
“This FISA deal looks like the unconstitutional Senate bill in sheep’s clothing. Whatever silk purse Hoyer tries to make of Bond's sow's ear and no matter how they try to sell it, the end result of all this negotiating will be exactly what the administration has wanted from the beginning - FISA rewritten to delete court oversight of surveillance and immunity for its pals at the telephone companies.”
“From the language we’ve seen, we’re back at square one, looking at a bill just like the old Senate bill that lacks meaningful judicial involvement. The Fourth Amendment requires prior and individual court review before the government digs into our private conversations. It is clear the next vote will be on a bill that fails this test – by permitting the government to conduct mass untargeted surveillance, sometimes without prior court review, and sometimes with prior court review – and then only when the government unilaterally decides that it is willing and able to answer to the judicial branch.”
“It is also clear that the deal is intentionally designed to grant immunity to companies that facilitated illegal wiretapping. If the only role for the court – be it District or a FISA court – is to determine whether the companies received a request from the Administration, and not to determine whether those requests were legal, it’s a sham review. The president has publicly acknowledged that the companies were repeatedly sent authorizations to turn over Americans phone calls and emails. It is absolutely guaranteed that current and future cases will never determine whether this administration and its friends in the telecom industry broke the law.”
“The ACLU urges Senators to vote against this deal if it is brought to a vote next week.”
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Fitz for AG!
Hoyer is not just doing an end run around Conyers and Leahy - he’s contradicting Obama as well. Perhaps Obama’s recent statements had an effect on Rockefeller as well?
Thanks, Christy, for the intel. Steny is going higher on the list of, “Democrats that need a Strong Primary Challenge.”
How about a nice primary challenger in 2010 ala Al Wynn and Donna Edwards?
If they thought this would get lost in the Friday news dump, they can think again…
The deal was hammered out Thursday night at a meeting that included Hoyer, Bond, Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller IV, D-W.Va., House Minority Leader Roy Blunt, R-Mo., and representatives from the Bush administration.
What a rogue’s gallery…
Can’t work up giving half a damn about the entire bunch combined.
This looks like an ideal time for Obama to step in to demonstrate his leadership of the “new” democratic party. I have no idea of figures but I would suspect that a fairly large majority of Obama’s supporters are not in favour of handing out any more gifts to the white house bums.
I coined these clowns the “Four Horsemen of the A(T&T)pocalypse” over in a diary at dKos — maybe it can catch on! [or maybe it should be “Four Whoresmen”].
BTW, thanks Missouri for Blunt AND Bond. Although Kit-bo can be kicked to the curb in 2010. Blunt is sadly probably safe for life.
maybe it should be “Four Whoresmen”
oh yeah, I think that’s the one. lol.
Does Rockefeller have a “protect the Constitution” button because that’s the button I would like to push?
The bad guys, both gooper and dem. do not yet understand the workings of the tubes. ONe wonders how many more demonstrations of the power of the internets is needed. One of the best demonstrations, the marvelous work at the Libby trial, should have awakened a few of the baddies but apparently not. Even the fund raising by the Obama campaign seems not to have gotten through. Here is hoping they don’t ever get it.
I’ve been trying to push that one for ages but, alas, I think his staff isn’t passing on the message. SIGH
Obama could earn some serious points with me by standing up on this issue now and not waiting for a last minute voting showboat. He could really help shut this down by simply speaking out against any deal that undercuts constitutional protections. I’m hoping he will do so. Firmly.
Amen to that, It is a wonderful opportunity
I think Steny’s expecting to become the next Speaker.
I hope this kind of backroom sellout shuts him right out of that slot.
Maybe he could be the recycling bin monitor. Maybe.
Same here CHS, the FISA breathing dragon of the lake!
How about we flood Rockefeller’s office with pocket constitutions with the 4th Amendment tagged and highlighted?
Also wrapped in copies of their oath of office….
Big Ef’fing DING! on that!
And to say further on that — Rockefeller’s staff has always been super-protective of his work on the Intel committee. Because he has always seen it as a non-partisan duty to the nation sort of job, and he and his staff take it very seriously. Which, on the one hand is a great thing, because that is how it is supposed to work. But, OTOH, it means that they have a tendency to get played by the politicized hacks in intel who have been pushing the Cheney agenda, because they want to see the best in these people.
You’d think after having to deal with all those years of Pat Roberts, super-jackass and Administration hatchet stooge, at the helm of the Intel Committee, they would have wised up to the terrain being less-than-honest with some of these bastards. But, alas…
It’s not just the 4th Amendment — the idea that the Congress should act in a judicial capacity to settle existing lawsuits completely eviscerates the idea of separation of powers. I mean, the people have a right under the 14th Amendment of the Constitution to due process to ensure that their rights aren’t violated. This is such dangerous legislation.
Exactly so. There are so many things wrong with this “deal,” it’s hard to know where to start in picking them apart…
LOL … B.I.N.G.O.
Has anyone spoken to Obama’s office and heard his response to this ?
of the eclipse
Working on it.
I was referencing some blogs for info to another group when I realized the group would not know what “Blue Dog” referred to. So I googled it, and the Wiki write up makes them sound like regular guys, trying to bridge the differences and resolve them.
Hmmm, left me having to delete the term.
What’s in it for Steny? $$ to mount a campaign to take over Pelosi’s seat given that she has to be the worst speaker ever (Impeachment, Mrs. Pelosi?) he might feel that he’s got a shot… and it costs money to do anything up there on the Hill…or so I have been told.
Leahy ought to just shut this down now on the premise of “Let’s wait until after the election” and let the new President/Administration decide how this needs to be handled. There is no point in giving anything away to the War Criminals of the 1600 Crew at this point in 2008… they can’t successfully mount a “swiftboat” campaign against incumbent Congress folks who stand on principle and then cover McVain’s sorry “confused” ass in the General Election too. Na gah happen.
((((( Christy )))))
Please tell me what phone number will work from Canuckistan ?
I’ll give them a ring.
If this FISA deal was a bulldozer, I’d lie down under it’s wheel.
Well, maybe not. Bloodletting might increase Cheney’s pleasure at getting it passed.
Friday the 13th FISA Follies? Figures.
I’d like to see Feingold drag their asses into his office and give them a tongue lashing …
Why is that not obvious to Steny and Jello Jay?
Kagro has a fab update on this as well…
Because they think with their “I {heart} Lobbyists” shirts on they are invisible to the rest of the world. It’s a comfortable place where lobbyists provide all, take care of all and put money into their “leadership” PACs at ever-larger rates to keep elected official from hearing the noises that the peasants (or is it piss-ants?) make.
Ya know, if the new congressional majorities shake out as it seems that they might, it could doom the Blue Dogs to a life of utter irrelevance, and wouldn’t that be sweeeet?
Why do you think they are all trying to kick up so much dust now?
Leahy ought to just shut this down now on the premise of “Let’s wait until after the election” and let the new President/Administration decide how this needs to be handled.
I don’t know how Leahy can influence this. It’s Harry Reid’s job - that boat has sailed and he has failed.
Again.
as usual.
What’s in it for them? $$$, power, cover-up. That’s probably enough. The real question that we have yet to figure out is what they are trying to cover up. And they are trying mightily to make sure we never do.
We could really use a whistle blower right about now.
I got through to BO’s office - 202.224.2854 - and asked the guy who answered what Obama’s position has,
re. Steny & Friends attempts at caving to Chin-ee.
He said that he hadn’t heard about it but if it does come to the floor, BO would be opposed to it. I suggested that this immunity deal is a big cover for Cheney and that BO should address this ASAP. He thanked me for the call and said he would pass it on up.
I added that they should check out firedoglake and gave a shoutout to Christy’s efforts.
I think a couple thousand calls to BO’s office will make them realize how important this is to voters, if they don’t alreadt know.
Correction: … Obama’s position was…”, not has …
Can’t Senators still put a “hold” on legislation, anonymously? Because that might be just fine here… not like the Rs haven’t done that in the past for painfully stupid reasons. Here the reason is totally trivial, protecting the 4th Amendment and living within the rule of law.
But then, Telcos pay, and the Treasury really doesn’t. So I guess I know what happens to the 4th Amendment…
Whooooosh —> the sound of one toilet flushing.
That’s pretty much been the standard response from his office all week, btw. Will let you all know if I hear anything beyond that…thanks for calling, Petrocelli. Every nudge helps!
Reid won reelection by 61.1% in 2004. He’s up again in 2010.
Damn I would love to take that fucker out. Even if it means supporting a Puke.
Just got this statement from the ACLU — updated the post above:
“This FISA deal looks like the unconstitutional Senate bill in sheep’s clothing. Whatever silk purse Hoyer tries to make of Bond’s sow’s ear and no matter how they try to sell it, the end result of all this negotiating will be exactly what the administration has wanted from the beginning - FISA rewritten to delete court oversight of surveillance and immunity for its pals at the telephone companies.”
“From the language we’ve seen, we’re back at square one, looking at a bill just like the old Senate bill that lacks meaningful judicial involvement. The Fourth Amendment requires prior and individual court review before the government digs into our private conversations. It is clear the next vote will be on a bill that fails this test – by permitting the government to conduct mass untargeted surveillance, sometimes without prior court review, and sometimes with prior court review – and then only when the government unilaterally decides that it is willing and able to answer to the judicial branch.”
“It is also clear that the deal is intentionally designed to grant immunity to companies that facilitated illegal wiretapping. If the only role for the court – be it District or a FISA court – is to determine whether the companies received a request from the Administration, and not to determine whether those requests were legal, it’s a sham review. The president has publicly acknowledged that the companies were repeatedly sent authorizations to turn over Americans phone calls and emails. It is absolutely guaranteed that current and future cases will never determine whether this administration and its friends in the telecom industry broke the law.”
“The ACLU urges Senators to vote against this deal if it is brought to a vote next week.”
Shorter ACLU: “Hey, Steny! Piss off!”
I thought as much. First he said that he hadn’t heard about Steny’s latest move and then that BO would be opposed. It sounded too contrived but I didn’t want to start fighting with the guy.
I made a point of staying on message … that Telecom immunity is fundamentally wrong and that it protected them and Chin-ee, who broke the law.
If BO doesn’t use this to flay Bush/Cheney/McCain, it will say a lot about him. I think you and bmaz, BO has to get in front and lead on these issues, to show us that he will do so when he is POTUS.
Pretty much calling bullshit on the whole sham of a craptastic illegal tapdance, isn’t it?
How I would love to say that to his face. I cannot stand this guy and think he is as slimy as a snake. I have sent a number of e-mails to Nancy telling her she had better watch this guy ’cause the knives are out.
Wouldn’t the first vote be in the House? Or has that now shifted?
The only holds that Harry seems to honor are those of the repigs. Dems, it seems, are powerless.
Yup. That first paragraph by the ACLU lawyers/spokespeople is the most efficient and non-vulgar takedown I’ve seen in quite some time. Beautifully done by those good folks.
Steny wants the vote in the Senate, and is trying to fob it off on them — my guess is that he doesn’t have the votes in the House because his heavy-handed tactics have backfired on his scheming ass. If I were the Senate leadership, I’d tell him to clean up after his own fricking mess…
That’s right, and it’s why I still hold Reid primarily responsible for this mess if it happens. All he had to do was respect Chris Dodd’s hold, and this entire thing would have come to a screeching halt.
But Tom Coburn and Jim Inhofe’s holds? Like the Word of God, they may not be ignored.
Steny is stepping on a lot of toes by doing this.
Perhaps he has sensed weakness in Pelosi and crew?
This is not what I would consider a smart move right now. I wouldn’t give BushCo the time of day if they asked for it at this point and with elections coming to replace all 435 Representatives in November, it makes sense to me to kick this down the road and tell Chimpy to stuff it .
Can’t Senators still put a “hold” on legislation, anonymously?
hmmm… I like the way you think. It’s devious.
If so, Feingold could do it - though I doubt that he’d remain anonymous. Leahy - ditto.
Reid did not honor the hold by Dodd the last time; he will not this time.
Remember Reid’s words the other day after Kucinich’s articles of impeachment were presented…no accountability for Bush…”No matter what he’s done”.
That about says it all.
finfini’s in the Spin sitting in for Donita again upstairs.
Like the jab at Vito Fossella. haha.
Reid did not honor the hold by Dodd the last time; he will not this time.
damn - I forgot about that.
Do ya think that if Obama puts his foot down and does so very publicly, it might go differently?
Yes.
Put his foot UP, possibly….
Steny must be hangin’ with the homies in the lobby and lining his pockets to step on toes like this.
Read Kagro’s article that I updated a link to above…
Obama can make all the difference in the world. But that would entail affirmatively doing so up front and strongly now, not merely giving some weak “I’m against it and will try to go vote against it” bunk. All he has to do is forcefully stand up and say “This is wrong for our party and wrong for our country. No longer will we stand by and let our country and Constitution be gutted of that which it stands for”. Personally, for all of his talk, I don’t think he has it in him. I hope I am wrong.
Brilliant idea katymine! Count me in and sooner than later.
Unfortunately, I think you are right.
what yellowsnapdragon said.
I don’t think Rockefeller has a “protect the Constitution” button. His POV is probably, “I’m a ROCKEFELLER, fer pete’s sakes. What do we need with a Constitution?” Uncle David, from the fascist side of the family, may still rule the roost. But I’m just guessing.
Bob in HI
Nope, that’s not Jay. I’d bet money they are pushing his “it’s best for the safety of the nation” buttons. He’s a lot of things, patrician and a throwback to earlier Senate comity and decency among them — but he has never been a fascist sort that I have ever seen. He worked here as a Vista volunteer for years before he ran for public office, and his work on the education here in WV was desperately needed and something that worked wonders for a lot of the more backward, rural communities. If the first introduction to Jay that you have gotten is through the FISA mess, then you haven’t seen the best of him — and he has done some good things for our state through the years.
This, unfortunately, is a very bad decision on his part and, as I said, I think it’s likely being driven by intel push — that’s the pressure point I’d use with him if I wanted him to push this. And I’d bet money it’s the one Cheney’s been manipulating behind the scenes all along.
Hi Christy, Just arrived - you go girl!!!
As we speak, Steny’s appearing at his annual Bull Roast.
This is corrupt and (sorry, I gotta say it..) Un-American!
I do not like members of the democratic party misrepresenting the effect and significance of legislation. Undisclosed agendas are being served and asses are being covered. And keeping company with Kit (waterboarding is like taking a swim) Bond, is making a mockery of bi-partisanship.
Where does Sen Byrd stand on this?
So why not a temporary extension and fix it in the next Congress when there is a Democrat in the Oval Office? And just what would it take after all this time for Rockefeller to pick up on the fact that he was being played? I’m thinking that if he can’t see through Kit Bond then nothing will.
In light of the commemts at EW’s, doesn’t the SCOTUS decision have a bearing on this?At the very least, be used as an argument against the whole fisa issue?
Let us know if you need any help.
thanks Christy!
waaay late to the party - and have now read Christy and Kagro twice.
am getting a twitter in my gut about ol Steny - most of the time these intuitive noises are found to be on target - and sometimes I’m FOS
that said - the recent transfer of power within the Party - does it have something to do with Steny’s frenetic crap ? is the array that once had him lined up behind Madame Speaker evaporating in light of the new regime ?
along those lines btw am gonna make sure the folks in the BO campaign hear over and over again from this central texan - here I go
Somebody is putting a lot of pressure on Steny, be it push or be it pull or be it both.
The question is who? And what do they have on him?
A bit of googling indicated that Hoyer is in tight to the two prime suspects, the DLC and AIPAC.
Interesting tidbit re: Hoyer & Pelosi
Good bit of Hoyer background in article
Maybe it’s one last favor the way Trent Lott did, just before retiring.
Is Hoyer having trouble winning re-election?
Raising funds?
Other?
Or, maybe Hoyer thinks this will win him friends and favor in a bid for the Speakership next time ’round.
They are really, really, really worried about getting this passed and passed soon..
Hmmmm, we must be getting really close to the bits they don’t what us to know/see/use against them in a court of law etc..
Jeez, Christy
Ya think you own this place or somthin’?
Slow down, wouldja?
;~P
I’m still on, like # 6
Slow reader
Hoyer Earns Trust With House GOP, per The Hill.
Isn’t that special.
Proposed Hoyer legal standard for immunity:
Telco (and anyone else involved):
“the president asked us to do this illegal act and here’s the letter saying so”
Court:
“ok, you’ve established you are immune under the statute, next case“
Plaintiff:
“but, but, they knew it was illegal and we can’t find out what they did with our business secrets”
Court:
“next case”
Some people think Tim Russert was Cheney’s go-to guy.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....51_pf.html
Wrong thread, sorry.
I think we should re-frame the term ‘Blue Dog’. I think Yellow Dog Dem is apropos because they’re afraid to be Democrats.
And I think we all need to be careful in weighing our Reps. They can be nice guys & gals early on and sell out later and do more damage than good. Rockefeller and Hoyer should recognize that resting on their laurels is a short term pastime, not a retirement plan. Unless they wish to be retired very, very soon.
To me, this is in the top ten worst deals for the country done by a president in my first 55 years. The others were Vietnam, Iraq, the Nixon games we thought the Church Commission had cured, two failures to intervene in African genocides (Rwanda/Darfur), Iran Contra, Valerie Plame, failing to get Bin Laden and the cronyism/financial shenanigans that have gone on in Iraq.
It’s really that bad and no Dem should be cut any slack on such a critical question.
Why would any senator bring a bill to the floor to be voted on that could put them, other senators, representative, governors, etc. in jeopardy of being spied on?
Blackmail or money is the only reason I can think of.