By now, there’s a good chance you’ve heard about this story in the Washington Post today:
High-level negotiations over the future role of the U.S. military in Iraq have turned into an increasingly acrimonious public debate, with Iraqi politicians denouncing what they say are U.S. demands to maintain nearly 60 bases in their country indefinitely.
Top Iraqi officials are calling for a radical reduction of the U.S. military’s role here after the U.N. mandate authorizing its presence expires at the end of this year. Encouraged by recent Iraqi military successes, government officials have said that the United States should agree to confine American troops to military bases unless the Iraqis ask for their assistance, with some saying Iraq might be better off without them.
The Americans are making demands that would lead to the colonization of Iraq,” said Sami al-Askari, a senior Shiite politician on parliament’s foreign relations committee who is close to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. “If we can’t reach a fair agreement, many people think we should say, ‘Goodbye, U.S. troops. We don’t need you here anymore.’ “
. . . The American negotiators also called for continued control over Iraqi airspace and the right to refuel planes in the air, according to Askari, positions he said added to concerns that the United States was preparing to use Iraq as a base to attack Iran.
“We rejected the whole thing from the beginning,” said Jalal al-Din al-Saghir, a senior lawmaker from the Supreme Council. “In my point of view, it would just be a new occupation with an Iraqi signature.”
. . . Assuming that violence in Iraq will continue to decrease, politicians such as Saghir have begun discussing another option: asking the U.S. military to leave Iraq.
“Maybe the Iraqi government will say: ‘Hey, the security situation is better. We don’t need any more troops in Iraq,’ ” he said.
This is the latest step in the orchestrated groundswell of Iraqi complaints to U.S. media outlets about the proposed security deal that began with associates of Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani leaking rumors of his increasing unease with the occupation a few weeks ago.
At the very least, it’s posturing to improve the Iraqi government’s negotiating position regarding the potential agreement. Some say it’s barely even that — they think Maliki & Co. are (still) the Bushites’ loyal puppets, and are just making noises to placate popular opinion at home before eventually giving Dubya and Dick Cheney most of what they want.
As some readers may know, I’m not so sure about that. I’ve written before about the ultimate eviction of U.S. troops being part of the long-term plan of the Shiite hierarchy, and the rhetoric the Shiite pols are ratcheting up at the moment seems difficult to back away from — rather than setting the stage for a reversal, they appear to be almost painting themselves into a corner.
It wouldn’t be the first time, of course. The image at the top of this post is a billboard the Shiite coalition had put up as they celebrated their Sistani-fueled electoral victory in early 2005. Replacing a previous pitch for Iraqis to vote (on the right), the new billboard showed what looked like tank tracks on an empty stretch of land, with the legend, “They are leaving, and we are staying.”
So far, we haven’t left. The question, though, is whether that’s because the former exiles who make up the current government are inextricably bound to us (out of love or necessity), or whether they’ve simply viewed us as contractors who needed to put in some overtime to subdue their enemies — a task they may now see as being nearly complete. We may find out in the next few months.
Update: Via McClatchy Newspapers, Barack Obama has some thoughts on the subject of SOFA:
A spokesman for Obama (D-Ill) said any long-term U.S. security commitment to Iraq must be subject to Congressional approval; alternatively the administration should seek an extension of the current UN mandate. Obama wants a new administration to make it "absolutely clear that the United States will not maintain permanent bases in Iraq," said spokesman Bill Burton.
Part of my thinking on this issue has been that the Iraqis would rather negotiate with Obama than with the Bushites, and it’s no surprise that it’s Obama’s preference as well.



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F I T Z !!!
Ssshhhh… can’t you tell this is a library?!?!
Looks like Bush is finding out what the other King George felt like in 1776 – it’s a bitch when your colony tells you to get lost.
thats a welcome evolution of his position.
how about the mercenaries?
I’ve been writing these questions in a few places and now that you bring this up here I’m hoping someone, ANYONE can answer…. (I’ve yet to get a response)
When the UN mandate allowing our occupation of Iraq expires and we don’t get an extension, what happens next? Will we be told to remove our troops from Iraq? What is the likelihood of that happening?
Any info on this would be MUCH appreciated.
Thanks all!
There, fixed it for ya.
Thought of a question yesterday – do we have the authority to tell the private companies fighting in Iraq to get out?
Well, at least now they understand why we are there…
That’s exactly what’s up in the air right now. The Iraqis are saying they don’t want the U.S. version of SOFA and they don’t want to renew the UN mandate as is, either. So now they’re floating the possibility of telling us to get lost.
Thanks Swopa.
What a gawdawful mess dumbya has made, with a little help from his cockeyed shooter & the rest of the mean & ugly band.
Where to begin. *sigh*
We have the authority to stop paying them. But as long as we are paying them, Blackwater has no problem aiming their weapons at US troops.
Anyone who thinks the U.S. will pay the slightest bit of attention to what the Iraqis want hasn’t been paying attention in the last 5 years. And that includes Obama. As soon as he takes office, the powers-that-be will read him the riot act and he will fall into line.
OK— we’re makin progress- so as the kid said in the library:
“How in the hell do ya get kicked OUT of here?”
Well, if we stop paying them, what do you think they’ll do?
I guess I owe you a coke…
Oh, perfect. We can pull alot of our troops out of Iraq, what a lot of americans want, and move them to Iran.
Two of the craziest leaders in the world playing games.
Just what we need.
And, where will this live gas prices?
I thought it was “cute” that Bush did not meet a lot of protests in his last Tour. I heard that people over there (think the sond) just don’t care to protest against a Duck. Lame that is.
I’ve been wondering the same thing myself.
So Swopa, what if they do tell us to get lost and we don’t “feel like it” ?
Obama should bribe em ta kick our asses out—I’d go a trillion bucks- we’re gonna spend it there anyway.
I like the sound of that. I hope that’s what will happen. I’ll cross my fingers. (I know I’m being idealistic – but a girl has to dream, right?)
then we’d better be prepared to read him the riot act too.
no honeymoon.
Purple fingers! Purple fingers!
Not THAT finger!
We save THAT finger for Bush.
And can anyone explain why Blackwater needs to be buying fighter jets for “training”? Don’t the Navy and Air Force have their own planes?
An international, independent rogue military, with all the money in the world and serious weapons…is that what this is?
Oh yeah, I was wondering that too… what if we don’t feel like it and who exactly is going to tell us to get out? The Iraqis or the UN?
those that are paid in tax dollars – stop payments, they’re done.
its true mercs are employed by a variety of other entities in occupied Iraq, and so the same companies may continue to operate until the central government gains enough strenghth to make them stop. and that could be along time.
snort!
“The Americans are making demands that would lead to the colonization of Iraq,” said Sami al-Askari, a senior Shiite politician on parliament’s foreign relations committee who is close to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. “If we can’t reach a fair agreement, many people think we should say, ‘Goodbye, U.S. troops. We don’t need you here anymore.”
James Joyce says:
Kings and corporate cohorts in colonial crime “mercantiled” the colonist all the time. In 200 plus years, we have become, that which we severed our ties from. Corporate aristocrats enabled by our “instilled dependencies” rape Americans and Iraqis alike now! Jefferson’s fear for usurpation of constitutional checks and balances in the lust for “endless profit” by said aristocrats is realized today. Meanwhile the democratic leadership and the likes of scummy steny enables
executive oilaristocrats in the continued corporate rape of America and Iraq in the lust for endless profit, while using the constitution as toilet paper. Corporate fascism de facto!!!!We’ll be the last to know.
LOL! Nicely put.
If they tell us to get lost, under Bush, we will suddenly decide that the Iraqi government is not working, or even better co-opted by Iran and we need to help them with a quick “regime change”…
…all in the interest of “spreadin freedom”, of course…
Is there any leader of any country on planet earth that wouldn’t rather deal with Obama than Bush?
Thanks
This is where the matter of our vulnerable supply line from Kuwait to Baghdad becomes relevant.
Sure– the one’s who have been hoodwinkin us out of our money. They don’t want someone CLEVER running the show.
if they ask us to leave and the president uses that to say the surge worked and it is a reason to reduce troops, mccain wins the election
“Part of my thinking on this issue has been that the Iraqis would rather negotiate with Obama than with the Bushites, and it’s no surprise that it’s Obama’s preference as well.”
Exactly. Negotiating with “oil men” who invaded your country won’t fly with the Iraqis or anyone else in their right mind.
It’s also telling that they have to negotiate to get the US to leave in the first place…other than to negotiate for reparations for reconstruction and perhaps some residual training or something like that. It has to be all about oil..
Bushco is probably saying let us control your oil reserves and we’ll throw you some money…take it or we’ll never ever ever leave…. McClellan indicated that Cheney had looked at the oil reserves and may be considering controlling those reserves…(on Democracy Now this morning).
Obama would negotiate in good faith for both the Iraqis and our troops.
That is exactly what they are. And, by the way, there wouldn’t by any constitutional problem with a PRIVATE army imposing martial law, would there?
So Kuwait could kick us out as well?
Even better!
I don’t think all this will play out before the election. Bush will stall for time and threaten them and they will back off somewhat and it goes on.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung
cabals like the one Cheney controls often need both military and para-military groups … sometimes to play one off against the other, keep the other in check.
We do not know how far Blackwater is along this course, but it clearly seems to be their course.
An Obama administration continuing to fund such a politicized paramilitary force would be making a serious mistake – if he is actually a force for change and not just a happy face on the same policies.
One of my customers just got back from Thailand after two weeks and they couldn’t believe how many over there were thrilled with the idea of Obama as the next US president.
The world will rejoice when George Bush & Dick Cheney are
out of our livesin prisongone.Sure leave the
corporate welfare“investment” in American blood in Iraq for Exxon Mobile, for the Iraqi’s to develop for the benefit of Iraq and its people, Sure no brainer???I’m not saying I agree with the vote, I obviously do not, however americans are famous for voting against themselves and they will do it again if the president draws down and thanks his “surge” for the ability to do so
I don’t want a troop reduction. I want every single soldier out of there. I don’t see how we can even have an embassy since they will be trying to kill those Americans, too. People don’t seem to realize how much they hate us and with good reason.
You mean the “corporate aristocrats” Jefferson feared would usurp the constitution under the color of law in the lust foe endless profit!!!
if bush wants mccain as president he will make sure it plays out just enough to look like his surge was a stroke of military genious
What a mess.
McCain is basing his whole campaign message on that very premise…that it was “his” idea, and look how perfect it’s all working out.
I’m not even sure that Bush cares who is prez after him. He has had it all to himself and I think he will never believe there IS another prez.
One thing about mercenaries: they work strictly for pay. Certainly the easiest and quickest way to tell them to get out of Iraq is quit paying them!
Bullseye. Thanks
So if someone else decides to pay them, like maybe Russia, we would just be out of the loop. Whoops !
digg
Might just work, so long as they can get Sadr play along.
So, how much has the US spent on the (not) permanent bases?
The Green Zone?
I am sure he cares who’s president when he’s gone, I am absolutely certain he cares
not likely
they don’t have a comfy seat without our ‘friendship’
Obama has put a huge stick in the US negotiators’ spokes by making it clear that he regards permanent occupation as a non-starter. Time is not on Bush’s side here. The other thing he did was throw down the gauntlet to Bush, who is just dumb enough without his handlers to pick it up. He is going to smoke Bush out on the reasons for the invasion. At the same time, he traps McCain into defending those reasons. With the Senate report just out, the invasion becomes harder and harder for the thuglicans to defend.
Popcorn, please.
and then he wins, everyone who was marginal goes to mccain, every bigot feels justified, all the republicans turn out and mccain is considered a savior and the savior of the republican party
anyone remember way back when rove said Iraq would not be an issue for this election?
“The contract to develop the second leg of the oil field was initially signed on March 21, 1997, under the reign of Saddam Hussein. LUKoil operated the first phase of West Qurna and is looking to develop West Qurna-2, located in southern Iraq. The deal for both stages has been signed for 23 years, but was frozen in 2002.
West Qurna-2’s proven recoverable reserves have been estimated at around 6 billion barrels of oil. Under the terms of the contract, output could amount to 4.8 billion barrels of oil and 56.4 billion cubic meters of associated gas. Investment in the project could reach $4 billion.
Baghdad is also discussing the West Qurna-2 oil field with Chevron and Total. However, analysts say that Iraq is likely to resume work at West Qurna-2 with LUKoil after Russia recently wrote off the bulk of the country’s debt of around $12 billion.
The Russian company is among 35 firms listed for petroleum contracts with the licensing office of the Iraqi Oil Ministry, out of 120 companies that submitted bids in January-February to develop Iraq’s vast oil and gas fields.”
http://en.rian.ru/business/20080607/109477398.html
Aha.
Ah yes, I forgot about that.
Thank you everyone for this discussion!
I appreciate it.
I’m off for home.
Good night all!
It would be ironic indeed if Bush’s misadventure ended up vastly enhancing the power of Reagan’s old Evil Empire…
if?
L8r
Aloha, Swopa! Excellent post! You should check out my post;Maliki: A Rock and a Hard Place…
Here’s what they “didn’t” spend…:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7444083.stm
Not OT, yet flabbergasted I remain.
Has anyone here seen “Body of War”?
Read this and weep.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..06317.html
Has already enhanced Russia’s powers in three ways: U.S. decline makes every other country rise in relative terms; U.S. pissing off Putin has led to more sturrborn behavior on his part; rise in oil prices stemming from invasion of Iraq helps Russia. Not “vast” but significant. And it’s not over yet.
Yep! That’s the one! LOL
This is what the Americans want and the protests in Irak are about:
* US forces would be free to attack via Iraki airspace, land or waterways any country which threatens global and regional peace and security, menaces Iraki government and constitution, or instigates terrorist and paramilitary groups.
* US forces would have the right to set up additional military bases and stations inside Irak that will “support” the Iraki army. The number of the bases would depend on several factors, including the security conditions the US government deems desirable, negotiations with the US Embassy in Baghdad and the US command as well as discussions with the Iraki Defense Ministry and relevant authorities.
* The Iraki government and its judiciary would not have the right to prosecute American forces or individuals. The immunity measure would extend to the US military, security, non-military and logistics firms affiliated with the US Army.
* The Iraki government would not have the right to independently determine whether US forces inside Irak are qualified, nor would it have the right to limit or determine the size of American military bases and their routes.
* US security forces would have the right to build security centers, particularly their own special prisons, to maintain security. Neither Iraki judiciary or police are to have access to these except at the will and pleasure of the American government.
* US forces would have the right to use their privilege to arrest those who threaten peace and security without a warrant from the Iraki government or its institutions. Neither Iraki judiciary or police are to have access to persons so detained except at the will and pleasure of the American government.
* The US government must be informed of and negotiated with on Irak’s regional and international relations as well as signing of agreements.
* US forces will control Irak’s defense, interior and intelligence ministries for 10 years to carry out efforts toward training and enabling their staff, (This means even the weapons used by Iraki forces and their types must be employed with the consent of US forces.)
* The agreement to be signed would be a pact rather than a treaty.
* US forces would remain in Irak for an indeterminate period depending on conditions in the country. Future reviews on the matter would depend on the US and Iraki governments. Any review would only be made under certain preconditions, including that Irak’s security and military organizations improve their performance; the country’s security situation improves; national reconciliation takes place; neighbouring countries are warned; the Iraki government regains complete control throughout the country; and puts an end to the presence of paramilitary forces inside Irak.
Erdla
And yes it’s from several sources we’ve found to be very reliable in the past.
yes, yes and yes…
Another good thing? Impeaching George Bush would also force Johnny McTeleprompter to defend George Bush! Oh how I would love to see that!
Aloha, Erdla!
Off topic:
Anyone watching C-SPAN? The republics in the House are pissed off about their computers being breached as far back as 2006. Geeeeeeeeeeeee, and these are the same people who have protected George Bush’s ability to spy on us illegally? What a bunch of assholes!
Beyond outrageous!!!
That is colonization and occupation by people who consider themselves superior. That is permanent domination and submission by force. Evil doesn’t even begin to describe Bushco. They will never be able to suppress the spirit of the Iraqi people. Never.
OT – Mean Jean is lying again:
House GOPer Accuses Dem Foe Of … “Grotesque Medical Experiments” On Human Guinea Pigs
Well, if Bush has shown us anything, treaties don’t matter and this wouldn’t even be a ratified treaty. The Bushies and media are only saying it will tie our government’s hands. Who would impeach Obama for getting out troops out of Iraq, when Americans vote him in to do just that?
Reply should be, “If you haven’t done anything wrong, you’ve got nothing to worry about.” ;)
Exactly. What do these republics have to hide? That’s what they always say to us when we stand up for the right to privacy. Spit.
Just letting you know Cliff has a thread upstairs also.
It’s all about rights only for the “right people.”
Good gawd! She examined data that was done previously? What a vicious vile person that Democrat is! Spit.
Of course, we all know Jeannie has nothing to run on so she has to make shit up against her opponent to make herself feel better. ;-)
Ah ha. I see. *wink* According to that theory, you and I are still “right-less”. LOL Some days that’s a good thing if you know what I mean!
You’ll find some photos of what the U.S. has been doing in Mosul over the last few weeks here.
No wonder they are protesting.
What is the sgnificance of the pact v. treaty part?
Yeah, that’s what got me – she reviewed data – that was it. Any lie that makes her opponent look bad; typical, as you say, republic behavior.
Darth?
Doesn’t need to be ratified by either your legislature or theirs.
I didn’t think I could hate Bush any more than I already do.
Gotcha ;)
A ‘pact’ doesn’t have to be ratified by the US Senate – although it appears that it WILL have to be ratified by the Iraqi Parliament.
The US is claiming that the bases will ‘technically’ belong to Iraq – so we would only be renting them. Therefore, they aren’t really permanent.
However, the language of every single one of those other provisions makes me sick at my stomach. Irak is a sovereign nation. At least that’s what Bushco keeps telling everyone.
Yeah right.
Like anyone actually believes it.
And yet, unbelievably, the ungrateful Iraqi government wont sign their sovereignty over to us. This is what is meant by their being “uncooperative”.
Give us your oil, and while you’re at it, control of the whole damn country, or else we will continue to bomb your cities, hospitals, etc etc. USA — beacon of freedom!
Thanks, GG. I’m getting quite the education hanging out here.
That’s what they do..they call torture…enhanced interrogation…and they call treaties…pacts.
Worse than criminals.
One ‘good’ thing Bush has done in this case. His penchant for ignoring treaties and conventions means that Obama has a precedent for ignoring this if by some wild stretch he does manage to bribe/coerce/threaten the Iraki government into signing it.
So – play the same game. Just ignore it and bring the troops home.
Well, that fits their talking points MO to a T.
Looks like white phosphorous again.
And who is it exactly that is guilty of using weapons of ‘mass destruction’?????
Yes or some other incendiary. What they do with the phosphorus is they use it in such quantity that the effect is the same as using thermal weapons.
Check this out…posted 6/8…has links to some of the same pictures but describes the weapons used in Mosul, and it is in English:
http://turkmenelinews.blogspot…..ns-in.html
wang- that would be correct…
I wish we had a media that would report these things. One enormous war crime after another….our media…crickets.
Well, law doesn’t mean anything to them, why should mere words?
That’s actually an English translation of the iraqrabita report LS. Good translation too.
From the link:
We met the Judge Taha Al-Janbil who was not at home when this murder happened and he informed us of the following :
1)- After the crime, the Americans came to visit him and gave him the name of some senior American army member. So he understood that this was an attempt by some Americans to cover up for their crime — by providing the name of a high up American army name.
2)- several TV stations and newspapers came to Mosul to see for themselves, but the following channels even though they received the reports refused to air or publish it – these channels were Dubai TV, Naharain TV and Baghdad TV.
3)- the judge Taha believes that the americans used weapons that are forbidden and he believes they were phosphorus bombs. One family member Farhan Ahmed who arrived at the scene tried saving another member but was burned himself when he tried carrying this family member and got his hands lightly burned. He went to the hospital to treat those light burns only to see that they turned green and he died from phosphorus /napalm poisoning.”
Does anything Bush says actually mean anything? ;)
Same for McSame…
Good. It needs to get out there.
These people have been incinerated! What weapons system was used against them, if you know?
Gotta be willie pete…! 8-(
It’s not known for sure. That’s pretty much the point – some form of airborne incendiary – probably phosporus and something else like petroleum gel as a carrier. The injuries to me look very like what was seen in Fallujah were slightly modified forms of Napalm
WP doesn’t normally burn like this, covering the majority of the body surface. This looks more like a gel like napalm.
Are you CTuttle – some WP yes but look at the spread of the burns. Doesn’t look like just WP to me. (Disclaimer: I am not a doctor or a pathologist.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_(weapon)
We are claiming that we ‘only use it against military targets to produce smoke’
Yeah right.
Or something new? Like they turned up the volume on that new soon-to-be-released crowd control weapon?
The story of the use of this weapon, whatever it is, needs to go viral…pictures and all.
Clearly, this is a major war crime.
WP is usually a component of an explosive. It will burn areas it touches and burns inwards but not like this. This appears to be more a covering by a flammable gel or liquid.
True, WP does burn a specific area rather than widespread like those burns were… I’ve got to run now, I’ll see ya later…! ;-)
These appear to be children. Am I correct?
Can they combine WP and napalm? They are not explosion wounds, because the victims are intact but uniformly burnt all over. It is something that enveloped them with a very hot quick burn.
Yes
Microwaves?
Disclaimer… I have no idea what that would look like.
They can but I’ve never heard of them being combined. WP could be applied to the outside surface of a napalm container but would serve no purpose. Napalm burns a wider area. WP is used primarily to set smaller flammable structures alight without the widespread burn area of napalm.
Would not give the exterior burns you see. Microwaves heat from the center out. That’s why your mw oven doesn’t burn stuff you put in it. This is exterior incineration. Son of a bitch.
One of the persons looks “relaxed” in one of the photos above. Is it possible this person was burnt after his or her death? Just an observation and not meant to be hostile. ;-)
Well, I guarantee you that I will spread these images as far as I can.
No.
The person’s arms are crossed. In my mind, I would think agony would make for a different posture. Again, just an observation! I’m not a homicide detective. Swear. ;-)
No I’ve seen that before – it’s a post-mortem artefact.
Can I be excused for drinking to excess today?
Check it out…I’ve been commenting on WP and napalm and the burning of Iraqi children above…well, my computer shut down, and all of my bookmarks and history are wiped out.
So!
Here catch this shot I’m slidin’ down the bar…
LOL Have one for me. ;-)
*clink*
Okay. The fetal position is what I would expect, but then again, I don’t know what the after effect of phosphorus on the body has.
I promise I’m not driving!
Just from visiting the sites posted above or from using the key words? Huh. Weird.
It’s not so much an effect of phosphorus as one of intense heat. That much I can tell you from my “fornensics for lawyers” lectures.
Hey! Let’s consider the couch as the back seat! Much safer that way. ;-)
Hey, that sounds like a plan, wdd!
rum & cokes all around
Whatever it was, it was rapid…no time for anything…just pure incineration of innocent human beings. Actually, the postures are reminiscent of the figures that perished in Pompei. Agony. In Pompei, they were overcome by gas first.
This is death from intense heat, not a burning like being in a car on fire. This was a rapid death, probably not instantaneous, but rapid.
How can we do this to our fellow human beings?
Good comparison.
“We” couldn’t, but “they” do. Pure unadulterated, heartless, soul-less evil.
Pompeii victim:
http://z.about.com/d/cruises/1…..eii010.JPG
Dehumanizing other people is how it’s done. When they’re “ragheads, “hajii’s,” “gooks,” etc. This looks like it was done by aircraft, where the “brave” pilots don’t see the results of their actions.
So has anyone seen the results of this new crowd control weapon that is supposed to cause intense burning pain? I hear it can cook your corneas in not so short bursts. What about longer bursts? Like a sausage on a too hot grill, or what?
Pompeii victims:
http://www.volcanodiscovery.co….._e2517.jpg
John McCain, brave pilot.
Closest thing I can come up with would be if it were capable of covering an entire body they would like look like they’d been, damn, what’s the word for immersing something in boiling water for a minute or two. Parboiling?
No, it only affects the nerve endings on the outer part of the skin, causing a sensation of burning. It doesn’t actually burn anything. On the other hand, they could easily have developed an anti-personnel weapon that just BBQ’s people..that is what this looks like to me.
They are that evil.
Nice example. I hadn’t thought about the images of Pompeii. They too were in similar positions.
They wouldn’t have blackened skin. They would be poofy and blanched.
There were and still are a lot of reports of intense air activity in an around Mosul.The expression is “Fire and forget”.
There are no words to describe how heinous their actions are. None.
Blanched, that’s the word I was looking for.
Yes but they wouldn’t look like that – not seared all over. The injuries in these photos I’ve just been told is typical of a fuel-air explosive.
I wonder if they have a weapon that first paralyzes the victims in place, and then burns them. That is to say, a bomb drops, people are frozen in place and can’t get away and then the fire is rapid and has something that attaches to the skin and burns them.
It is awful to think this way, but we need to know what they are doing. The bodies are “intact”, so it is not a weapon that fragments the bodies. It is a weapon that torches people.
Understood. Wangdangdoodle got us off topic on a new crowd control weapon. No comparison.
Yes. Fuel/air…something that takes away the oxygen paralyzing them and then burns them.
Sick, sick, sick.
Explosives don’t work that way. The shock wave alone would negate that.
Remember…during the Carter administration, they developed the neutron bomb. What does it do? I remember that it kills people, but leaves buildings intact.
Are the buildings all destroyed too?
These are fire bombs. Must be a napalm/WP combination or something like that. Definitely incendiary.
Definitely war crime. Definitely illegal internationally.
It’s theoretical but that was the idea. Detonated at high altitude so that structures were left intact. The shock wave from a nuclear device is what does the damage 2-3 or more miles away. The detonation itself is not that large.
Sorry to take it off topic, but if it’s new and we don’t know or haven’t seen the results, how can we say?
Ah yes but how you get around that (as some people on this site have tried to argue to amongst others MFI and myself) is by cavilling about intent. In a way it doesn’t matter. I keep on thinking of Mohammed Ibn Laith and how even before that sniper shot his younger brother he said
hang on I’ll run a search to find it exactly.
BRB
The science involved is different, that’s how.
Right…besides these people do not look like they were exposed to shock waves.
This is extreme heat, rapid, affecting the entire body equally, which suggests something clinging to the bodies…almost like acid only it is blackened so it is a burn from something that flames, but does not disintegrate the bodies.
I keep thinking about young Ali, too.
It’s truly sick what is happening over there. And to think the right wingers of America were up in arms when Rev. Wright said America creates bombs & weapons to kill brown people! He was right, of course. Embarrassing and shameful.
From: Let Us Understand One Another You And I
Well, good grief…obviously if you drop a weapon that destroys people you have intent to destroy people. I suppose the argument is…we only wanted to destroy “certain” people (the bad guys that attacked us on 9/11…that is how stupid their argument is)…we didn’t intend to destroy “those civilians”…it was an accident…Bullsh*t.
Layers of lies.
Neutron bomb:
http://www.manuelsweb.com/neutronbomb.htm
Good gawd! This could be what was used on the Iraqis in the above pictures, no?
Me too – I look at my children and sometimes when I look at photos or videos the others post in our members area my imagination superimposes my children’s features onto the children in those photos.
Not very good for peace of mind .
And I don’t blame him. Not for a second. If I said what I really wanted to say I’d be through here.
The Directed energy weapon has been feature on the Military Channel. It doesn’t Burn anything… It just make the skin feel like it is burning and have to move out of it’s energy beam… IRC it based on microwaves which at higher energy levels certainly would cause burns… it was demonstrated and the host had to move when he was subjected to the energy beam. wouldn’t be lethal unless you stayed in the beam for a long period of time… They were to deploy this in Iraq but felt that it would be viewed as WMD… Ha Ha… There was some talk of first using in the US for crowd control… Oh boy I bet that would cause an uproar here!!
We won’t forget either. We hate them too.
I respect your knowledge and opinion, SD. I have no background in this and only want to find out more.
Nevermind. I read it too fast. It definitely wasn’t used.
Doubt it – the radiation would be too hard to hide as would the electro magnetic pulse. Remember how Chernobyl was causing (and still is causing) a rise in background radiation huge distances away within a few hours?
“U.S. production of the bomb was postponed in 1978 and resumed in 1981.”"
No, the effects would be vastly different. Neutrons destroy cells, they don’t burn. Neutrons are used in the triggering device (neutron generator) of implosion type nuclear devices.
Yes, and I think they die of radioactivity…not scorching.
The electromagnetic effects is what makes its use questionable in any situation. Destroys all electronics within a certain distance, including the delivering aircraft.
I think it’s actually quite important – and I’m glad you’ve raised it. He and a lot of others in Irak are interested in peace. Not friendship. Peace. He’s never made any secret of his absolute loathing – cold clear eyes hate – of America. Which has what has made his dialogue with Mike Kinman so hard for him – it’s been rough on both of them in fact.
“it is with your enemies my brother in humanity that you must make peace.”
“As refined models with better capabilities were developed, the concept of propelling a jellied oil of thick fuel that splattered and stuck to targets at ranges over 60 yards endured until the early 1970s, when rocket powered flame weapons provided greater standoff capabilities, such as the 4-barrel M202 rocket launcher, the M72 LAW, and MK 153 SMAW. The most common US flame weapons currently employed are the M202A1 Flash, flame field expedients (Fougasse), and the M14 TH3 incendiary hand grenade. The M202A1 Flash may be replaced by a new shoulder-fired, thermobaric warhead, soft-launched rocket to support soldiers.
The main incendiary agents are thermite (TH), magnesium (MG), WP, and combustible hydrocarbons (including oils and thickened gasoline).
Thermite incendiaries are a mixture of powdered aluminium metal and ferric oxide and are used in bombs for attacks on armoured fighting vehicles. Thermite burns at about 2000°C and scatters molten metal, which may lodge in the skin producing small multiple deep burns.
Magnesium (Mg) burns at about 2000ºC with a scattering effect similar to that of thermite. Its particles produce deep burns. “
http://www.globalsecurity.org/…..ndiary.htm
“The use of flame weapons, such as Fougasse, the M202A1 Flash, white phosphorous, thermobaric, and other incendiary agents, against military targets is not a violation of current international law. They should not, however, be employed to just cause unnecessary suffering to individuals.”
I think we can safely say that this is the result of a napalm-type weapon, without WP, which would just be engulfed in the fire. My question is why are we using this type weapon in populated civilian areas. Has it gotten to the point where we incinerate hundreds of innocents to kill some resistance fighters?
This is not good..”They should not, however, be employed to just cause unnecessary suffering to individuals.”
That doesn’t sound too “illegal”…
edit – alleged resistance fighters
Got to that point several years ago. Think Falujah, Hit, Ramadi, then think about last year’s “surge” in Diyala. Then think about all the air attacks on Sadr city. US ground troop casualies are remarkably low in larghe parit because of the use of air strikes and artillery.
That is why it is described as “clear and hold”…They want to clear out anyone who resists…then they want to hold the territory, so they can steal the natural resources….just read what they want upthread.
Iraq to the Neocons is a piece of territory that they want because there is a lot of oil there. It is that cold…cooperate or you are dead meat. Period. The Neocon agenda is world domination by the use of force…shock and awe. They’ve published all of their plans for years. It really is that callous and that bad. Their plans are all available at the click of the mouse. All of it.
Dresden, Hamburg, London. Not so new and not so improved. I’m sorry GG. From the bottom of my heart I’m sorry. I haven’t done enough to stop this. It’s what I get for being angry and feeling helpless at the same time. Time for an attitude adjustment.
Gotta go. Just so happens I’m off to an anti-war meeting.
Peace be upon you and yours, GG.
Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.
Namaste
I’ll try. I’ve got to go myself. Been a peevish day for the
hordechildren and if I don’t get to bed I’ll be peevish myself all day tomorrow.Keep well
*poof*
American Troops Going Insane
words. fail.
I wonder why the hate us
Watch out,blackwater is coming to get people like you