YouTube from Extraordinary Rendition. Bisher al Rawi, describes his CIA rendition to FRONTLINE/World. Bisher is one of many "ghost" prisoners held by the CIA in secret prisons around the world. He was released without charge after four years in captivity.

The Senate Judiciary Committee is webcasting the hearing live.

SEN. DURBIN QUESTIONS:  Thanks Feinstein for the hearing and this testimony.  Says we'll be defined for generations by this conduct.  Asks Fine about witnesses -- sent questions out to 1000 agents and others overseas.  Over 900 sent back responses.  Interviewed 200-ish witnesses on this.  Durbin talking about extreme treatment -- including short-shackling -- did it occur?  Fine says yes.  Extreme temps?  Yes.  Both at the same time?  Yes.  Did Rumsfeld approve these -- these weren't the actions of a few bad apples on the night shift, as Congress had been told?  Yes, there was a period of time when those techniques were specifically approved and authorized.  Talks about waterboarding -- and problems with current AG.  JAG lawyers told him that painful stress positions, threatening prisoners with dogs, forced nudity, extreme temperatures, and others -- all illegal and violate Geneva Conventions.  

Asks Caproni about violations of law?  Caproni says that all of those techniques are abusive.  Torture has a specific definition -- OLC has said no -- says that it's above her pay grade to say otherwise.  Says that none of those techniques are permissible in the US and that no FBI agents would have been permitted to use them or participate in them.  Asks Fine about Abu Zabaydah (CHS notes:  I know I'm butchering that spelling.)  Says he is not aware of a regular series of reports from agents of disputes between DOD and agents in field.  Fine says prisoner was held at a CIA facility at that time, not at Gitmo.  Says that there was not clear evidence that these reports made it from lower levels at DOJ to director of FBI.  [CHS notes:  again, wasn't Chertoff in that line of pass-through and, if so, shouldn't he be questioned as to why the director of the FBI wasn't notified of criminal complaints and/or questions coming in from FBI?]

SEN. CARDIN QUESTIONS:  Asks about reliability of information obtained through these enhanced techniques.   Talks about al Libi recanting his "confessions" obtained via coercive techniques later.  Fine says he didn't look at particular intel on this.  What he can say is that FBI's techniques are successful in getting information.  The other techniques which are used to break people have the effect of getting people to say whatever they think the interrogator wants to hear to get them to stop what is being done.  Army Field manual has moved closer to FBI's techniques, which tells you which they feel is more effective.  The FBI clearly believes that rapport based interview techniques are the best means of obtaining reliable intel.

Talks about the Tipton Three -- British prisoners -- said one thing, but later found that it was a false confession.  How much more information was unreliable, and how delayed were we in obtaining solid information that could have been useful?   

FEINSTEIN QUESTIONS:  Talking about memo from FBI agent -- that for some reason sat in Quantico for some period of time.  Talking abotu admissibility of evidence obtained through these duress methods, and legal problems with these.  "It is possible that those who employ these techniques could be arrested, tried and convicted for using these techniques.  Should not be utilized."  Fine says it is addressed on pages 121 in the IG's report.   Present mental condition of al Quatani.  Fine says that he described things that happened to him -- he was able to communicate with them.  Interviewed in presence of his attorney.  Told them about the abusive techniques which had been used on him, which are described in the report.  Were you aware that Spike Bowman called DOD general counsel in Dec. of 2002.  He called Gen. Counsel's office and discussed concerns.  Raised concerns about treatment of al Quatani.  When he called to follow-up, he was unable to obtain any information about the DOD's actions taken in response -- he was effectively stonewalled and his concerns were not addressed.  Told DOD was handling it.

You both have said that these types of techniques are not effective.  Explore that -- and talk about why you think this.  Fine says that he was indicating what the FBI has learned from years and years of doing this.  Rapport based approach is best -- they believed that was the best way to approach this as well, based on their experience.  If you know who you are interrogating -- you need to know all the information you have on them, if you are well-prepared, rapport-based techniques are the most effective.  

WHITEHOUSE QUESTIONS:  On page 106 of the report, there is a reference to a legal analysis of techniques -- asks for a copy of this report for the record.  The Administration says that CIA are the experts, by contrast military intel are amateurs and have to operate under constraints -- presumably that analysis would apply to FBI as well from the Administration's stand-point.  Fine says the FBI are trained professional and that they have experience in this and have had great success with this.  Fine says they looked at how military interrogators were doing this -- looked at how they came up with this, and it was not a well-thought-out plan.

FEINSTEIN points out that the CIA uses contractors, not trained employees, and this is a HUGE difference in her opinion on this.

WHITEHOUSE continues:  Waterboarding just a dunk in the water, and stress positions no big deal because Rummy used to stand at his desk every day.  Fine says that they didn't look at waterboarding in this inquiry, because to his knowledge, DOD did not do this.  Says that stress positions cannot be compared to simply standing at one's desk.  Any information on discrepancies on Rumsfeld's public statements versus his approval of these coercive techniques.  Have you looked at US v. Lee?  Neither Fine nor Caproni have.  Do you know whether the FBI was involved with this prosecution?  Caproni says most likely.

FEINSTEIN:  Can you describe the friction between FBI and DOD with regard to al Quatani?  DOD wanted to use phased approach, FBI didn't think it would be effective -- and raised concerns with DOD and NSC.  Ultimately DOD had control over that.

SCHUMER:  Thanks Feinstein for holding this hearing.   FBI has determined that non-coercive, rapport-based techniques are the best way to obtain actionable intel.  This is supported by a host of research.  Says FBI has decades of expertise in interrogations.  Why profound difference of opinion on using coercive techniques?  Caproni says she doesn't know why.  Talks about the agent who helped to interrogate Saddam Hussein -- no coercive techniques were ever used on him, but it was a highly successful interrogation -- getting him to confirm any number of valuable items of information.  To Caproni's knowledge, no one in the Administration pushed FBI to use coercive techniques as far as she knows.  Spec. Agent Pirro says that he didn't feel that Hussein would have responded well to coercive techniques.  Schumer says that Hussein cracked under the traditional rapport method of interrogation.

Questions about disputes within the agencies.  It has been suggested that there was "trench warfare" between FBI and DOJ versus DOD and CIA on what techniques should be used.  Caproni says there were substantive discussions.  Caproni says that she isn't aware -- nor is Fine -- of pressure from Administration to participate in coercive techniques.  Schumer asks Caproni to follow-up and get back to committee after speaking with leadership on this issue.  Was there retaliation of any kind against anyone at FBI or DOJ for refusal to participate?  Not that they know of.  Schumer submits questions about destruction of documents and asks witnesses to respond to those later.

Bringing up next panel -- thanks witnesses for their testimony.  Feinstein doing an intro for the witnesses.

JACK CLOONAN:  Talks about rapport-building as better technique.  Says CIA's own manual for agents says that heavy-handed techniques can lead to sluggish and withdrawn witnesses and non-useful information.   Says he has used rapport-building on al qaeda members in the past.  It is lawful and effective -- and can do nothing but improve our image in the world community.  Using coercive techniques do not.   Does not accept the argument that sleep depravation, sensory depravation, stress techniques, temperature extremes, waterboarding and other coercive techniques produce the best information.  Rapport-building does.  Law enforcement rarely get the opportunity to interrogate al qaeda operatives such as ones we currently have in custody -- we cannot waste those oportuities with less-than-the-most -effective methods of gathering all actionable information.  Untold man hours of chasing after false leads.  [CHS notes:  Pizza Hut intel, anyone?]

Cloonan says that he participated in many interrogation opportunities with al qaeda operatives where rapport-building techniques were used on operatives who had murdered American citizens.  Putting them on the stand to highlight that bin Laden allies had been broken had enormous value for law enforcement and intel gathering and as a message to likely targets.  Cloonan says he spoke to a number of FBI agents who were at Gitmo, and that the vast majority of detainees subjected to these techniques had little or no value for intel.  Knowledge is power -- technological assets, computer exploitation and other efforts have pre-empted some terrorist attacks.  The most effective counter-measure is, and always will be, the apostate who chooses to cooperate and "spill the beans."  Gaining this cooperationis a formidable task -- but he has seen that occur because these al qaeda members were "seduced by our legal system," as strange as that sounds.  Talks about the "sleeping dog" belief of al qaeda.

Three questions:  (1) Has use of these techniques lessened al qaeda's thirst for revenge against the US?  (2) Have these techniques produced a larger number of people willing to be jihadist martyrs?  (3) and Have we gleaned any useful information to stop this from these coercive techniques?  I'd suggest the answers are no, yes and no.  Torture creates enormous problems for us abroad -- and  only strengthens the hand of those who wish to harm us.

This debate is a crucial one.  The decisions you make will have a far-reaching impact on our national security.  Proponents of the "ticking bomb" scenario seek to forestall debate about the efficacy of these techniques by creating a climate of fear that allows for no discussion.  [Will continue his statement after the break...] 

Recessing the hearing until 2:00 pm ET.