Great post. Thanks Ian.

Jus Cogens!

that pic, i marveled at it the first time i saw it. The artist deified her, it was so reminiscent of other pol posters I’ve seen from that area of the world. Why do they do that?

Agreed– my impression is that regardless of any other tactics, she had to fight to the end. I’m proud of her.

Evita!!

Thanks Ian.

I really hope Obama picks her for VP. She and Bill both have rock-star status and that translates into donations, crowds and media. Better than anyone else in the Democratic party, she inoculates Obama against “identity politics.” Votes from her supporters will be especially key in OH and PA. A lot of Democrats in the south will want her (or Bill) campaigning with them.

She and Bill can blunt a lot of JoLie’s popularity in the NE and Florida.

Given the way she ran her campaign, I’m not ready to start singing hosannas about her “grit”.

Just my $.02

I still think she increased the riff in the party by refusing to leave when the writing was on the wall. But that’s just me. It just seems like it was so unnecessary after the first of May. It riled and fired her women supporters, threw her people into a destructive frenzy of “this could still happen”, when in fact, it just couldn’t.
imho,
thank you for this post Ian. You are doing great work with these pro “hil” posts.
:)

yes. yes. yes to that, Tom!

LOL!
THAT’s what I was referring to.
sheeeesh.

and some of us believe had she bowed out earlier – same supporters would have rallied round her, calling it ‘classy and gracious’

those bonded to her are bonded to her period

Sure, she’s a fighter. The problem was she wasn’t fighting the right people/things. It’s like GW Bush- everyone knows where he stands. You may not agree with him, but you know where he stands. And people will vote for that, even if they disagree with his stand. And some people want a fighter, a scrapper, and they don’t care who she fights or who she hurts, just as long as they can admire her for her scrappiness. But, I have to say, that when she came out and stood on the other side of the line with John McStain, that’s where she lost my vote.

Wonderful post, Ian.

I grew up in Canada’s British Columbia more than any other place. At the time about half the province’s economy was forestry based, and the third largest industry was fishing. My father was a forester, and one of my uncles was both a farmer and a commerical fisherman (and a hunter, as well, though almost everyone I knew hunted, so that didn’t mean much.)

The Larch !!

The Mighty Scotch Pine !!

like GW Bush- everyone knows where he stands.

Bush stands wherever his handlers and owners tell him to stand. Then he goes for a bike ride.

that’s funny. and true.

That’s if he can find his way out of the room unassisted.

Thank you Ian.
I think it takes guts to speak what your heart knows to be true in a Town Without Pity. No, that’s not fair, I realize that there are lost of folks here who endeavor to be fair.
I’ve said before that we all have many reasons for why we chose whomever candidate we supported. Some of those reasons are more gut instinct, or subconscious.
A couple of weeks ago, someone posted an Obama video where he was seen as Rocky. I posted here that the video could be seen different ways, depending on who you supported. I got some flack from a few, which I do about other things I have to say from time to time.
I have said this before, I think we need to take time, every once in a while, to consider context and perspective. Especially considering the nature of non face-to-face interactions which are part of this internet experience and the instantaneous aspect of this technology, I hope people can take time, perhaps after they get off the toobz, to consider that there are perhaps perspectives that they have not previously considered.
I appreciate your thoughtful follow up.

i have to admit i’m hoping to not have all-hill-all-the-time coverage for a while (no pushback at fdl, really referring to the rest of the world). i think i’ll like her better given a break …

Curious, did you say that Traitor Joe Lieberman also “affirmed that he had the endurance, guts and heart to go the distance, to take the body blows, and to bear up under any storm” when he lost to Ned Lamont, but then figured out a way to stay in office?

The Clintons, like Traitor Joe, are the ultimate DLCers. Hillary was a former head of the DLC and is CURRENTLY on the DLC Leadership Team. She was “fighting” for an ideology we’re usually fighting against. It was a fight against a 15 State Strategy versus a 50 State Strategy.

Why any Liberal still feels the need to defend The Clintons and their ilk just boggles my mind. Anyway, doesn’t really matter if some want to continue to ignore the destructive nature of the DLC “centrist” agenda to the Constitution and the DemocratIC Party, since fortunately, most of the country is ready to move on and usher in a new era in America, and it’s happening just in time.

Just when you thought the page might be turning… how about a greatest
hits montage backed with “I Gotta Be Me” or Madonna… progressive
political blog or crying game?

The why you characterize the two make me think of the Captains in Star Trek
Kirk the fighter who wouldn’t quit.
Picard, the smart negotiator, who will fight (and win!) but tries reason first.

Borowitz says this morning that McC is going to campaign in all 13 colonies. :)

Just an interview a little bit ago on NPR’s Day to Day with a woman who was a Hillary supporter who will vote for McCain. And they teased a piece on All Things Considered about Hillary now that she’s out. So they’re still keeping up the nonstop coverage, while I don’t recall hearing any long segments on Obama and the historic significance of his win.

I don’t get it. I’m an Obama supporter but I respect Hillary and her run for the nomination. But are we EVER gonna move on?

Senator Clinton’s campaign was a complicated human endeavor but overall she should have quit long before she did and she should have refrained from creating sound bites that will come back to haunt Obama like the one about how she and McCain were ready but she didn’t know about him. The Bosnia sniper fire did it for me. There is no way that wasn’t a pathological long standing problem. Apparently she has been misremembering for years. She was wrong on the war and could not bring herself to admit it. She deserved to lose. That she didn’t see that sooner was her greatest mistake.

OMG are we gonna start beating the dead horse again??? Puh-leez.

Ha! And he’ll be using a horse an buggy his wife loaned his campaign (illegally of course).

Can’t we let this all go and focus on defeating Grandpa McSame?

I just wonder how long until Clinton needs a Blue America primary challenge for her senate seat.

Running a winning campaign with integrity is extremely difficult. And running a PRIMARY campaign without saying or doing things you regret later (in terms of raising criticisms of someone from your own party) is even harder. But it’s not impossible.

My feeling is that’s where, despite her gritty, stick-to-itativeness, she lost some of us. Did she show she could fight to the bitter end? Yes. Did she show she was careful about where those punches were landing? I think the answer is no.

What dead horse? The Bosnia sniper fire? It may be dead for you but it isn’t for me.

His straight talk coach will be so full of arrows that it will look like a huge porcupine.

I’m sorry, there is a lot to admire, but I don’t particularly appreciate the aspect which you and others have come to refer to as a “fighter.” Like you, I admire tenacity and a fight to the finish against an enemy. I don’t admire it so much against members of the same team trying out for a position. I recognize her intelligence and abilities, and thought she delivered a fine and gracious speech. I hope she will help, and I have no opposition to her as VP, if Obama determines that is what is needed. But I can never be induced to believe that praising members of the opposition party, at the expense of competitors within your own party, is a good thing. Too much depends on the Democratic Party winning this election.

Doesn’t matter. We don’t need them.

Obama has already raised more than Shrub did in his entire 2004 campaign against Kerry. Obama folks are hinting that he’s gonna have a $100 million dollar month now.

This is largely a result of a 50 State Strategy mentality. In fact, I like weeding out people from our ranks that are so delusional that they’d consider voting for such a freakshow such as McSame. We’re gaining many, many more people than we’re losing, and it’ll much us much stronger in the future. “More and Better” applies not to just the politicians, but all the DemocratIC voters and volunteers as well. The future’s so bright…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvIAyxpjEuc

Shrub didn’t need money. He had Dibold. Perhaps McCain does as well.

I’ll say this about Hillary Clinton – if I’d been supporting her I’d have been proud to support her. She didn’t quit until there was no chance (something I’ve predicted both in comments here and on my site). She didn’t let her campaign down by bowing out early. And frankly, all the crappy things people said about her with little or no basis are far more of a reflection on them than they are on her.

I’ve gained a lot of respect for her during this campaign.

at the expense of competitors within your own party
How does this post pose a threat, ie. at the expense of cometitors, to Obama’s campaign?
I’m trying to understand your perspective, so that’s why I’m asking.

While I agree with a lot of your assessment of Clinton, I think you’ve misread Obama. I started out in the Edwards camp, because I also wanted a fighter, and while Obama was an easy second choice, it took me a while to get over my worry that his supposed “post-partisanship” meant a something similar to the past compromising with uncompromising conservatives that has dragged the country to the right for years.

I don’t see his response to a lot of these attacks as “finessing” or avoiding the fight. What I see is “fire and movement” — responding, but effectively shifting the playing field and forcing his attackers to try to keep up, rather than standing and fighting on the ground they’ve defined. As much as I believe that modern conservatives are an evil that needs to be definitively smacked down, spending too much time doing that means you battle them to a standstill but haven’t gained much ground. We have to be able to fight, but we have to also move forward and reacquaint people with a positive vision of the role of government so we’re not stuck doing nothing but fighting.

Dontcha know? We need to put the national nightmare behind us. Let’s just let bygones be bygones and I’m sure the DLCers won’t bother us anymore and just fall in line with our Liberal agenda.
/s

We don’t need them.

We need everybody, and we need to work to include everybody in our vision. We need to do all we can to educate people so that they don’t continue to act against their own self interests. We need to help people change from a “me” mentality to a “we” mentality.

That’s true and unlike Romney who quit early. BTW, since Mitt’s not running anymore are his sons serving in Iraq now? As Mitt said, they were “showing their support for the country by helping me get elected.”

What now, Mitt?

m frankly WORN OUT by the Clintons drama,there are so many problems to solve in this world i for one would like to FOCUS on the problems not the people…..i read your post this morning about the neocons and just wanted to add…they ALL GOT FILTHYY RICH with their endless war

I didn’t say the post posed a threat. I said I did not value anyone who uses any weapon available to fight against members of their own party during primaries. Specifically, I still don’t know how she can convincingly answer questions about whether Obama has somehow now equalled McCain’s commander-in-chief qualifications, or has suddenly gained the lifetimes of experience that she and McCain had.

Again, the post is fine. I simply disagree with the thesis regarding the admirable nature “a fighter” in all circumstances.

Sorry, that was in response to demi’s 37.

they ALL GOT FILTHYY RICH with their endless war

That was, and continues to be, the object of the exercise.

…effectively shifting the playing field and forcing his attackers to try to keep up, rather than standing and fighting on the ground they’ve defined.

Outstanding point!
Republican campaigns have redefined the “game-space” and tailored it to their issues, dragging Democrats off the real issue battlefield in the past.

Senator Obama seeks to reclaim familiar territory, where the game-space isn’t imaginary, isn’t a contrivance of traditional Republican themes.

yea meet the NEW WORLD ORDER same as the old,yadayada,yada!

Not before there’s a Blue America challenger to Lizard Brain Schumer.

Hillary at least recognizes that there’s a part of NY State north and west of Poughkeepsie and appears to try to do things to help that area (which is most of NY State).

Lizard Brain? Not so much

(bows) Konnichiwa, sadlyyes

Oops, forgot my manners.

liveblog getting underway again

Respectfully, bonkers, I just don’t think that’s the attitude

(Doesn’t matter. We don’t need them.)

any liberal should take about the Presidential election or HRC supporters in general.

IMO we have no margin for error in this election, too much is at stake. I wouldn’t “put my feet up” if Obama was leading 80 – 20 in states such as OH and PA. The GOP is bigger than McCain and they will fight hard (and dirty) at the local level.

Also, liberals need people in the habit of voting. Democrats staying at home is bad for us.

I also suspect a lot of HRC’s most outspoken supporters are more influenced by their very understandable anger over generations of sexism, than against Obama.

Christy has the next Senate Judiciary LiveBlog thread up.

You said “at the expense of” and that’s what I’m not understanding.
I do realize that the Convention is not until August 25, but since she has already conceded and supported the other leading candidate, it does feel like the primary is over today. So, this post isn’t exactly during the primaries and I still am trying to understand what you had said before. Not, that I have to, of course. :) But, I was just trying.

Thanks for spelling this all out in a post. Hillary proved that a woman could stay tough and go the distance. IMO, that was more important than being “nice” (for which she would have been crucified, too, let’s face it).

I think it’s important to note that a lot of what people fault her for isn’t what she actually did or said so much as how it was spun in the media. Both campaigns made mis-steps, both went for some low blows, but it’s time to put all that behind us work like hell to elect Obama in November. Those of us (on both sides) who are bitter should give some thought to growing up and putting the good of the nation before our petty personal differences.

I voted for Obama for Senate in Illinois, I voted for Clinton in the primary, and I’ll whole-hearedly support Obama for President.

McCain has a commercial out quoting her as saying he’s more qualified to be CIC.

Imagine if the Gore campaign in 2000 had had 1/10th the determination and fight of either HRC or BO.

Good Point. Kerry’s repetitive capture and kill the terr*rists played directly to the Republican theme. Granted, it was harder for Kerry then b/c more voters had been buying what Bushco was selling.

Thus far, Obama has performed well on both defense and offense.

Ali ! Ali ! Ali ! *g*

Boil it down to the nitty gritty and it’s nothing more than the new and improved East India Company/British monarchy collaboration. In our case it’s numerous mega corporations using legislation and military force to impose trade agreements with heavy personal investment in those corporations by those in power.

Thanks, Newtonuser. I wasn’t trying to be a brat, that of course comes naturally. I just thougt Ian had some good points and, well, oh, I’ll let it got and move on to the next thread. :)h

Yep, all those comments are going to be played endlessly, which is what I thought as she said them (giving the Repugs ammo to defeat BO)

yes and my best regards to you, always

Oh, I agree with you.

Back to work.

Be good to yourselves, and all other living things.

Namaste

yup,Kucinich,had it as the last article of impeachment…war to transfer our Natinal assets…Nazi ism

yes, pity gore didn’t

I wasn’t talking about Clinton supporters in general, just the ones that indignantly say they’re now going to vote for the Death Lover Panama John McSame. Yes, America has been and is now an extremely sexist society. So they’re going to take that understandable frustration and vote for McC*nt as he trollops on lipstick on the pig we call American policy over the past 8 years!?! (or more…)

There’s no getting through to people like this. We don’t need to spend energy figuring out how to make them see how misguided their attitudes are. We’re increasing our numbers in terms of people and money right now. I say full steam ahead with what Obama has been doing, since it’s working extremely well. People can choose to get on board or not. The choice is clear.

I’m not sure I understand what you don’t understand. By “at the expense of”, I referred to the fact that she had previosly argued her own experience as superior to that of Obama. I had no problem with that. When she stated emphatically, on two occasins, that she and McCain were sufficiently qualified, but Obama was not, I viwed that as atdvancing her own objective at the expense of the Democratic Party if Obama were nominated. I still see it that way, as I previously noted. Nevertheless, it doesn’t help the cause to continue to harbor grudges, and I don’t. On the other hand, I don’t agree with the “fighter” image. It’s like a sparring partner who is trying to hurt you.

Thanks for the response.

Ok, I see your point.

Why not let it go? Hillary is not the candidate. This incessant rehashing of the Clinton campaign and what she did/didn’t do/say are getting very old. I’m not aiming at you specifically, but what more is there to say that hasn’t been said hundreds of times already? It simply keeps our eyes OFF the prize of putting a Dem in the White House.

Okay. I thought your were referring to Ian’s post, not Clinton’s many previous statements.
Nevertheless, she is not hurting him now.

Too all of you on this thread. Do any of you know any history? Any at all?

Ted Kennedy took his campaign all the way to the Convention. All the way to the floor.

And he trailed by 700 delegates.

And nobody batted an eyelash.

So….

Just how do … you … label yourselves?

Many millions of Democratic voters see eye to eye to me.

Stop trying to suppress the Democratic Process!

Nothing Hillary has done has done anything other than increase the real Democratic Party’s appeal.

Nothing.

~~~Edited and released by Mods~~~

I suppose you are right although I believe Ian’s post gives more credit than is due. I don’t understand women who were for Clinton who now say they will vote for McCain. I hope you are not one of them. My point was that Hillary lost not because she is a woman, but because she was a flawed candidate. Under those circumstances, Hillary’s female supporters should have no trouble supporting Obama. To the extent these disappointed women are ready to vote McCain, I rake old coals in an attempt to persuade them they are wrong.

Enough to know Ted Kennedy diminished himself and Carter in the exercise.
Seems to me the purpose of this post is to rip the scab off and start
the venting again, Clinton lost when she did not win Texas and Ohio by
landslide numbers, that is why after those victories, she blew up and
acted out Golda Mier fantasies or Thatcherite slash and burn the rest of
the way. Interesting that she never fought Republicans with the same
zeal… self interest maybe, like the old days in Arkansas they talked
a good game but governed like people on the make, which appeals to a lot
of people these days.

If you want a country run by the Mark Penn types, Hillary is someone you will admire.
If you want to reopen the issue of racism as an attack weapon in American politics, you should admire Hillary– who threw all of us overboard, who might have found that tactic reprehensible.
Now, if you want a President who won’t listen to economists, no matter how many of them agree that a
certain course is a disaster, Hillary is your “girl”.
If you want to diminish and disrespect those who vote for someone else, no matter if it is the voters in the state of Iowa, or a whole geneneration of young people, Hillary will be your candidate.
If you want a candidate who blames many, and refuses to take responsibility for her errors … well, no question who that would be.
How about someone who will revive MacCarthyism, and smear a couple of people who have devoted their lives to helping others … How about that?
I am dumbstruck by the support of feminists who I would believe to be at least reasonably progressive, for a campaign that used this stuff –
And I believe that it is Obama’s excessive graciousness to his opponent, that permits columnists to now consider that
Hillary’s campaign was commendable, when it was an abomination and an insult to Democratic values.