From Daily Kos to the New York Times to points beyond, political commentators have spent today spitting out post-mortems for Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. By now, the standard critiques are familiar enough to be unenlightening. As uber-adviser Mark Penn himself writes dismissively:
The conventional criticisms of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign are these: she had no message; she ran just on experience; she should have shown more of her warmer side; she was too negative; President Clinton’s campaigning hurt her; and she presented herself as inevitable. It is amazing she got any votes at all.
That said, familiar attacks like Team Hillary’s poor preparation in caucus states — and particularly in Iowa — gain added bite from newly revealed details like this one uncovered by Jackie Calmes in the Wall Street Journal:
Veteran Iowa organizer Steve Hildebrand had sought a job with Sen. Clinton in mid-2006. In a 45-minute interview, the senator talked about congressional elections but never mentioned the coming presidential race, Mr. Hildebrand says. Months later, he signed on as Sen. Obama’s deputy campaign manager and oversaw his Iowa push.
Even so, many of the retrospectives make the unjustified (if unsurprising) leap from mistakes like this to the conclusion that Clinton’s campaign was fatally flawed from the start, and thus Obama’s win was inevitable. Karen Tumulty of Time magazine demonstrates the new conventional wisdom:
Obama’s campaign has been that rare, frictionless machine that runs with the energy of an insurgency and the efficiency of a corporation. . . there have been no staff shake-ups, no financial crises, no change in game plan and no visible strife. Even its campaign slogan — "Change we can believe in" — has remained the same.
As it happens, though, this isn’t true, and therein lies a story. Obama’s tagline didn’t evolve into "Change We Can Believe In" until late October of last year, a turning point in the nomination campaign that seems to have been forgotten by mainstream media and bloggers alike. As I wrote three months ago:
Plenty of credit has to go to Obama’s chart-breaking combination of charisma, fundraising ability and organization, but then again, all that seemed to be doing him little good last fall — a time when Clinton seemed to fit the profile that Democratic voters were looking for in hiring a presidential nominee.
As the links above explain, there was a time in September and October 2007 when Hillary seemed to riding unassailably high, and Obama’s strengths (including having opposed the Iraq war from the start) weren’t getting him traction even in Iowa. The problem was that all three leading candidates were seen as having essentially identical policy positions — even on where to go in the future in Iraq — and Clinton’s perceived greater experience and established credibility in surviving the GOP attack machine were serving as trump cards to prospective Democratic voters scarred by past defeats.
In short, in the absence of any clear distinction on what they proposed to do, Barack needed a way to surpass Hillary in terms of who could be relied on to get the job done. Making the case based on ability alone was a difficult challenge for a relative neophyte like Obama, so the only way to succeed was to cast doubt on Clinton’s intentions… and thus the "Change We Can Believe In" tagline was born.
Less than two weeks later, the John Edwards ad at the top of this post helped crystallize the emerging critique of Hillary, saving Barack the trouble of having to go explicitly negative himself. (Anyone who thinks Clinton was too harsh in attacking Obama should take a look at the ad — as far as I know, Team Hillary never produced anything this brutal in terms of personal ridicule.)
And yet, in a surprise I noted just before the Iowa caucuses, a Clinton campaign that more or less gloated about its ability to take a punch couldn’t figure out a way to respond to the assault on their candidate’s honesty. Had Hillary really understood what voters were looking for, and why her experience was a perceived advantage, she could have pointed out that there was nothing ambiguous or vague about what she went through in the 1990s… or about the fact that she came out standing up and ready to re-enter the fray. If she could survive that, voters could count on her to keep fighting for them no matter what Republicans through at her in the fall and beyond.
For most politicians, that kind of gutsy-posturing red meat is second nature. Team Clinton’s utter bewilderment at how to make this contrast with Obama (that is, not to attack him, but to emphasize their own candidate’s positive, proven history of standing up under fire) underscores criticisms that Hillary and her aides were running for the White House mainly because they felt somehow entitled to it — rather than because there was a job voters wanted the next President to do, and they were more determined than anyone to get it done. So, in that sense, I guess the conventional wisdom about the Clinton campaign has some merit after all.



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1?
Oh that’s helpful language, jesus.
Excellent post Swopa, thank you.
Money management was also a huge factor, IMO.
And he poops rainbows too!
don’t we all?
Ridicule, I don’t think so.
Yes, you’re right. One point I saw somewhere was that because David Plouffe of Obama’s campaign had worked for losing candidates before (e.g., Gephardt), he knew the value of being budget-conscious better than someone with a more “successful” track record might have.
Obama showed the skill and the work necessary to build a strong grass roots campaign. Hopefully he continues that pattern when he is sworn in come January. I’ll nation needs that type of commitment to solve it’s many problems. The media crowned Hillary after Kerry lost and I think that she bought into that type of view.
Meant to say Our nation needs instead of I’ll..sorry.. Maybe I can blame it on the heat.
Digg it.
there was no ‘turning point’ for the Clinton campaign. The media decided that Clinton was the anti-Christ, and Team Obama was quite happy to treat her as the anti-Christ.
The framework for the ‘fix’ was in from the very beginning — it was “anyone but Clinton’ from day one from the villagers and the corrupt DNC establishment. (How else to explain the choice of SOUTH CAROLINA as an ‘pre-window’ state? Edwards had won that state, and won a plurality of the African American vote there, but in terms of the Dems actually winning there in November, it was a no-go. There were other alternatives like VA and NC with large African American populations where Dems were making inroads– the choice of SOUTH FREAKING CAROLINA made no sense except as a means of stopping the Clinton express.)
The sad part is that the fauxgressive blogosphere bought into the Hillary-hatred of the villagers….
I poop ball lightning.
Honestly, the post-mortems ought to be given a bit of time. Everyone writing them now is writing with a pretty narrow perspective about what they “think” went wrong. How wrong some of those things are will be borne out as the GE scenario plays out in the coming months.
Learning lessons is one thing, pointing fingers is another. I suspect that the line between finger pointing and lesson-learning is gonna get crossed and then it’s gonna be bad feelings all around for a while, and that’s going to distract us from beating McVain.
Just saying.
Coolin off now huh? It’s only 95 over here.
not gonna ask
Nicely stated.
And that’s not to say it’s not a really fine post.
it should also be noted that Obama was the media puppet — and that Swopa is dead wrong about “September-October”. Obama rose quickly in the polls, and then levelled off as Clinton continued to rise. The media said that Obama had to go on the attack. So Obama announced he would go on the attack to the New York Times. And the Villagers were drooling in anticipation of the next debate.
….and what had once been an extraordinarily positive campaign by ALL democrats turned into the “Clinton Snuff Debate”….one of the most shameful performances of the media, and Democratic politicians, in recent memory. Clinton held firm, of course — until Russert gave her a lightning round question based on a flat out lie. Clinton answered the question based on her own stated position, not the lie that Russert had use used about her position…
True words. I don’t think I have ever seen Karen Tumulty write much that was “good journalism”. She’s trying really, really hard to reach Paid Pundit Status so she can work three days a week and have her words received as Gospel. Sort of like David Brooks in a dress and heels. (eeeew…)
It’s what people do. Whether it’s analyzing pantsuits or lapel pins or hand gestures or campaign organizations or what kind of cheese someone prefers on a sandwich. It’s just what they do.
Sharp cheddar please.
What does that mean?
It means you hate freedom. Real patriotic Americans only eat American cheese. Even on their pizza.
The news said that Athens reached 101 today. We are cooling down now it’s only 90.
-sigh- I know. Internalizing the lessons is one thing, making silly assertions and taking the words of someone like Mark Penn or Karen Tumulty and plastering them up everywhere with dissection and some sort of pretense at divining his meaning is just goofy for want of a better word.
There is a lot to be learned, and I think that it is being absorbed by both sides, but I just see big, grand assertions about why she lost and he won as not very useful. Just me I guess…
As Swopa sez: Unenlightening.
My theory on why he won and she lost, in case you’re interested: He got slightly more delegates than she did.
If they want to get into an interesting post-mortem, one would think McCain’s success would be far more interesting. Given how many conservatives don’t like him.
Hmm? Clinton name has big baggage. She seemed to take the low road. She wouldn’t do much about spying on America, the war, Iran. She was for women’s issues but did not see the agenda for change. She came off uncertain to me torn between the old guard liberal meme and not quite able to promote the new.
I thought she worked hard, tenaciously and with good energy. She did well when there were a lot of candidates…not so well with two. Yes there were two very different ways to finance the campaigns. She was married to special interest funding that was I believe her undoing. She was for the same old same old so it seemed.
We got a big thunderstorm that went through this afternoon; it’s down to 76 now at my house in Upstate New York.
Down to 99 degrees here in Central TX
in fact, Clinton ran a relentlessly positive campaign through February, while all of her opponents attacked her. The lowest blow was the ‘race-boating’ of the Clintons by Team Obama….
LOL… I agree with both points.
And yes, it would be interesting to study the McCain candidacy. My personal take: “they” (the republican power-broker mac-daddys) are letting him run as a “placeholder” in ‘08 so they can put someone in who they start grooming from Jan 21, 2009 as their choice for 2012, which will be the nastiest campaign on record unless Obama is the next FDR which will have its own “baggage” in an election-year.
She’s a regular on Washingon Week on Friday’s on PBS. Same old elite pundit crap. The only reason to watch is to see what the Village Idiots are saying.
bom dia pups
Took pics of weebits but now must find the camera cable to upload the pics.
Lukesiak, I was not part of any “fix’ at all. After fifteen years at the top of the political scene, you’d think she would have made a few friends in the media. And maybe even at the DNC.
She voted for the Iraq war. End of story.
Yeah, but that’s not the Millionaire Pundit Brass Ring like say, Press the Meet or Stephalumpamus… or even Two-faced Nation with Bob the Bush-lover. Didn’t Gwen Awful come from there and go on to someplace like Fox?
wanna see! wanna see!
When Obama started his campaign he made himself accessible to the public. The last candidate for president that came to GA and spoke to a large audience for free was Bill Clinton at a high school stadium. Hillary (imo) did not feel that she had to go to red states because she bought into the media hype that she would be the next nominee. Barack ran an excellent campaign and now it’s time to focus on McCain.
My favourite article on the subject, from the Globe and Mail.
Where Clinton’s Campaign Went Wrong
I can see that, I just can’t figure out who voted for him. I don’t know of one Republican who did. And that’s in three different states, as far as the ones I’m related to/friends with. A couple of Romney ones and a Huckabee supporter, the latter actually wanting Edwards. There’s obviously some Republicans who dug McCain’s Mavericky Maverickness, but I’ve never met one.
Off to start the grill.. making Hamburger Salad for dinner. mmmmm….no carbs. LOL!
Pretty accurate.
The Villagers and the corporatist have always hated the Clintons because they represent the closest we’ve had to Democratic leaders who wanted to lead in the steps of FDR and JFK.
Obama is still not seen for what he is: The representative of ‘More of the Same’ D.C. governance. If he is elected you will see no major changes in the policies which the MIC and Corporation America have found ‘appropriate and good…’ for the last 60 years. You will be asked to bend over and take it for $12.00/gal gas and food prices two or three times what they are now.
There will be more bullshit about gasahol.
More dithering over renewable energy.
Farm bills so laced with pork for rich farmers they’ll barely be able to walk to the bank.
The amazing thing about this election is how the much vaunted ‘blogosphere’ took Obama’s money and/or knuckled under to his hordes of fascist followers ‘fans’ and never pointed out just who he is and who backs him. I was told to ’stop spewing my lies….’ this morning when I pointed out Obama voted for Cheney’s energy bill. Obamacans reality much….
Apparently not.
This is the Elephant in the room. How a man who, where you can see his policies in action, could come to be the darling of the ‘reality base community’. It is not edifying to see people howling down the suggestion of Webb for Veep because he’s ‘not progressive enough to be on the ticket…’ Take a visit to Progressive Punch’s site and do some research for a change.
As to the ’smooth’ all powerful Obama machine? I’m too tired to list all the feet they stuck in their mouths. Auschwitz anyone?
And the bitter, dead enders over in Clintonia are now collecting ‘caucus stories’. They make interesting reading. Especially if you are a Republican operative.
That’s all folks and no, I don’t hate Obama or Mechelle, and my business partner is black.
Any chance that the machines voted for him more than anyone else?
Gwen is still host of WW. WW is different from the Sunday bobblehead shows in that it’s supposed to be a non-partisan recap of the week’s activity in the Village, as seen by various journalists from the main media outlets. National Journal now helps fund it and has one of their folks on every couple weeks. I look at it as what the folks who go to the cocktail parties perceive as reality.
One thing that really helped Obama in Iowa, particularly in eastern Iowa, where most of the population resides, is the the close cultural affinity these Hawkeyes have with Illinois. If you go to Chicago on a fall afternoon you will find Hawkeye football bars. If you go to a county fair in eastern Iowa in August, you will see many male heads adorned with Cub caps. The University of Iowa is sometimes laughingly referred to as the University of Illinois in Eastern Iowa.
are you part of the DNC?
Why did the RBC impose a 100% sanction on FL and MI, when the rules called for a 50% sanction on pledged delegates — and a 100% sanction on candidates who campaigned in state that had been subject to santions?
Why did the RBC NOT sanction IA, NH, and SC, all of who violated the timing rules — rules that were EXTREMELY specific about when those states could hold their primaries/caucuses?
And why did the RBC ignore not only the delegate selection rules, but the DNC’w own charter, and steal delegates from Clinton — and do so based on a closed meeting and secret votes taken in violation of the DNC charter?
Why did the RBC tell the Florida State Democratic Party to act in VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, and use a caucus system that disregarded Federal “pre-clearance” laws, then penalize Florida because it did not do what it was told?
Oskeewow
michelle
We used to caravan from Urbana to Keokuk to fish at lock and dam #19 and ride the Addie Mae from Navuoo down to the dam and back.
this study looks like it might be interesting (disclaimer: i haven’t read it, just got the link from dkos)
Some of my best friends are trolls
(bows) Konnichiwa, Wobbs
Pix of Weebits? Sunday evening treat. How nice.
What part of OVER don’t some people get, It’s fucking over.
I’m still hunting down the cable to upload the pics.
oh, i’ll hang around for that!
Why did we never lose a battle in Vietnam and still lose the war?
I poop Greased Lightning *g*
So well said, BB! I agree.
And I think she grew as a person/candidate ironically at the end, but not in time to change the outcome or to amend past sins. She found her real populist and feminist voice. Exciting and I think it will make her a better government server whereever she goes.
BTW, she also did not have OBAMAN’S very powerful early on weapon,
O-P-R-A-H!!!
Well, McBu’ush and some of his friends are still fightin’ Uncle Ho.
It Don’t Mean Nothin’.
Cuz I told Uncle Ho he could have the fuckin’ place?
a fine post indeed Swopa
from Rolling Stone -
a few of those links upthread harken back to September and October – the beauty of what they were doing would not be evident to anyone until Iowa, and frankly more like Super Tuesday
personally I have seen the Machinery of Hope upclose twice – that whole local autonomy thing is for real. and watching them explain the caucuses to first timers was a thing of beauty.
Again, I cannot recommend this RS article enough (waving to Raven!) so funny, it’s supposed to be unprecedented, new fangled, and of course it is, but it is also a new school take on how we Dems use to do it -
Rolling Stone
Yea, and some people here will be whining about Hillary as long as they let them post I guess.
((((( Betsy )))))
Did Al survive the night ? *g*
Remember, he died the day I left. Figured it was in the bag!
I don’t disagree with Swopa’s analysis that a particular change theme, and the delay in responding respond well to that theme, played an important role.
That said . . . Since both candidates received about 18 million votes each, and the difference in elected/selected delegates was fairly close, then one can conceive an opposite result (Hillary wins) with only a minor change or two in how the process was structured.
We could just as easily have had a different mix/schedule of primaries, or a tiny change in the formulae for allocating delegates to the “loser,” or other factors which were independent of either candidate’s merits, campaigning process, message or even the media’s treatment of them, (which sucked for both at different times).
So an alternative view is that we had two very strong candidates, each with different appeals/supporters, who were extremely close in total support. If one asks, did Obama win, or Clinton win, the only fair answer is “yes.” But the rules say, the one with the most delegates at the end is called the “winner.”
Seems to me the trick is to figure out how to have both coalitions of supporters come to feel they all won, because in many ways, they did.
Well, yah, except you are still talking about, uh what was that? ha!
All y’all are cracking my stuff up on this post.
Smug
BS
Still…
Now, maybe I’m the naive one, but how can a person be I.know.how.it.it and finger.in.cheek.what.does.dat.mean? bat, bat eye lashes at the same time?
I see it here, and I’m always confused.
Well, maybe not to be honest, but I don’t want to think that what I really think people are doing is true.
Damn. And I stayed a year after that? I musta been outta my mind.
its rather odd, because it contains no references to the race-boating of Clinton prior to the South Carolina primary….
Heh. A fair assessment. Much real journalisimsm gets done over cocktail-weenies, cuba libres and Cosmos don’cha know?
Wasn’t that what her speech was about yesterday? I mean if there are some deadenders whatcha gonna do, seems like a waste of time to keep runnin it back over and over and over.
seems so. spoke to him a few hrs ago. i think he’s at the hospital visiting papa spook.
SWOPA said: Team Clinton’s utter bewilderment …
They certainly seemed bewildered that Obama refused (largely) to get down into the swamp and fight … which seemed to be their only plan, post- Super Tuesday …
It was all that discipline you got from sewing your hash marks on and field strippin that 50.
McCain/Schiavo 2008!
-G
The RBC committee had a Clinton majority? Rehash the hash? Play the victim or move on? The Clinton “gaffes” were racially charged remarks about her affinity to white men there were a number of others at least tasteless remarks. If people want to act like ostriches and bury their head in the sand rgen when will you personally be ready to support Obama in the GE?
John Edwards ran tough TV ads, but he never implied that Obama was less than patriotic because of his father. That was left to Mark Penn to do:
John Edwards also never took a man who had come to help him at his request years earlier, in his hour of greatest need, and repay his kindness by using him as a bludgeon against another candidate.
In addition, let’s look at the whole reason the press wants to pretend this is all about racism and sexism: Iraq.
Barack Obama’s biggest early support from the progressives came because of one key fact: He opposed the Iraq war from the start. Hillary Clinton, on the other hand, not only voted for the AUMF (aka Bush’s Blank Check), but, unlike John Edwards and Dick Gephardt (another former presidential candidate, but one whose 2004 shot was lost because he backed Bush’s war), refuses to admit that she was wrong to do so.
The press doesn’t want to admit that opposing the Iraq war is a big electoral plus even in red states. Just as they don’t want to admit that they, as Scott McClellan said, were Bush’s “complicit enablers” with regard to Iraq.
I’m sure he checked the head stop and timing, too…! ;-)
Hold ‘er Knute, she’s headed for the pea patch!
How funny!!!!
David Brooks…. he is another annointed one, like Russert. They see themselves as delivering messages from on high to the myopic ones. I love Mark Shields and do not know why he is so patient and respectful to Brooks on Newshour, though Brooks is more careful there. A more liberal audience I guess. Brooks was so arrogant and dismissive of Edwards and populism. These MSM “stars” so generous with their disdain… and it hypnotizes a shallowly-informed public.
The NYT going to him and Kristol… KRISTOL! … DOUBLE (eeeew…)
I am just relieved the several hundred thousand ditto heads who would never vote for any D in November were not successful in changing the will/ majority of the yellow dog and progressive votes in the primary.
It’s over dude! G
Actually it was just an addiction to the smell of gun oil. On the salary in those days couldn’t afford the habit back in the world.
this strikes me as a call to invent a narrative that will be useful because it will make people feel good. but maybe that’s because i don’t understand the “many ways” they both won? could you elaborate? thanks.
Dat was my babeeeeeeee.
We were musing yesterday about the discipline instilled in the military by making the troops perform seemingly stupid ass chicken shot tasks (which, of course, cleaning a weapon is not one of). The dragon benefited from these activities more than 1% Raven I fear.
Here;s the thing….Obama had two good weeks in February — based primarily on 4 primaries in which at least 30% of the electorate was african american (LA, VA, MD, DC) and a bunch of caucus states.
From the end of that period, and for the following three months, Clinton showed herself to be the far superior candidate — with the momentum, the money, and the media all in Obama’s favor, Clinton beat Obama in Texas (not exactly “hillary country”) and soundly beat Obama in Ohio..and the superdelegate continued to flow to Obama.
Then Clinton won convincingly in Pennsylvania — and the superdelegates continued to flow to Obama.
Then Clinton beat Obama in a state where he was supposed to win — Indiana — and the SDs continued to flow toward Obama.
Then Clinton racked up overwhelming victories in WV and KY, demonstrating Obama’s extreme weakness among “average white voters” and the SDs just kept on flowing to Obama.
This wasn’t about timing — Clinton came from behind, and beat the pants off of Obama in crucial states and with crucial constituencies that Democrats need to win in November….and the SDs ignored it.
This was all about the corruption of the Democratic Party political class — Obama proved himself the better fundraiser, but a horrible GE candidate, and the SDs went with the guy who could fill their coffers, rather than the woman who was clearly the superior candidate.
LSA?
was it really that many? wow.
No good times
no bad times
there’s no time’s at all
It strikes me that the answer lies in this from the NYT:
The only way we win is if we go after that block of votes. We don’t have to get all of them, but we have to deny them to McCain. Gore and Kerry both turned that way at the end, and began to get momentum, but it was too late. I also remember that the same thing has happened in other Democratic losses.
As one of the elitist democrats, professional, highly-educated, tending to think in abstractions, I have always been a democrat because we are the party of the hopes of Americans, all Americans, not just the elites. I hope that Obama’s trips to Missouri and North Carolina are harbingers of a long-term strategy to reach out to this crucial block.
About the only weapon used in Nam that is still utilized today…! Ma-Deuce still kicks arse…! ;-)
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!!!
Would the war criminals not be impeached by now if it weren’t for the distractions from the MSM? Political gossip in lieu of HARD REALITY! Give the left Keith Olbermann’s show to keep ‘em happy and tuning in and satisfy that demographic we want to advertise to.
Iraq stories getting buried in the backs of the newspapers. Narcissistic public and manipulative press and so much sustained chronic emotional exhaustion from a bottomless dimension of fresh horror c/o the neocons and Bush … revelations of their past and revelations of their continued intentions. (Bush with his desire for 50 permanent military bases in Iraq… that has driven Maliki to consult with Iran about this ARROGANCE).
actually, those “dittoheads” gave Obama more than half his lead in the February primaries — (far less than what Clinton got from the GOP after March 1). Obama supporters keep forgetting that “operation chaos” started out supporting Obama, and only switched to Clinton after Obama became ‘inevitable’.
Exit polls 100 to 119 K in Texas alone. And that’s just the folks who admitted it!
Small arms? Still 105’s and 155’s right? No dusters or Onto’s though!
Nah, stayed away from that in Nam. Never knew when they were gonna yank me for an op.
McCain is definitely a ‘place holder,’ but i think the replacement will come a lot sooner – he drops out for medical reasons and the VP steps up.
LSA the lubricant?
Man. I used to feel guilty. When I was eighteen in 1970, that I was a thing with female parts – I think I’ve read that oh so sensitive description here — and didn’t have to enlist or get drafted.
But after all of this time months and years of threads of hearing, I Left My Heart In Saigon, I dunno, maybe I’ve learned something.
Yikes.
That’s all I’m saying. You can fill in the blanks.
“there was no ‘turning point’ for the Clinton campaign. The media decided that Clinton was the anti-Christ, and Team Obama was quite happy to treat her as the anti-Christ.”
This is pure baloney. This caricature is pure spin, so far as I recall. At the beginning, before Iowa, there was no Clinton = anti-Christ, only Clinton = inevitable by Super Tuesday.
Bob in HI
They’ve switched over many of the arty systems over to newer versions, with the same bore diameters…
wow.thank you for the link. i hadn’t seen any numbers before (probably willful ignorance)
Watched the PC (Philippine Constabulary) take off the second floor of a building where a bank robber had holed up. In Cavite, across the bay from Manila. Single .50 mounted on the back of a truck. He should have never taken a shot at those dudes. Even we knew not to mess with ‘em.
Ontos
Snap Peas! Yum!
Better FDC I spect
I think both Obama and Clinton BORROWED heavily from Edwards when he left. Hillary more successfully moved in as “heroine of the working class” using his rhetoric, though I noticed in Obama’s great speech this week he was citing specific stories of the “people” similar to Edwards. I think the 50-state exercise was healthy in a way for both Clinton and Obama to become more genuinely committed to their constituencies. I hope they pool their wisdom and the competition is over. And I hope Obama can delegate his new vast power to some Dem leaders chomping at the bit to kick some Republican ass for deconstructing our government and erasing the concept of “the common good”. I wish there were a larger pool of Dem leaders who were willing to put it on the line for justice … like Wellstone had been, Feingold always has been, etc. …. but I am interested in seeing them stretch.
It was an old fishin sayin a guy used to yell when we’d hook a big un.
and if you want to be a hero well just follow me
I thought you were talkin’ about the medical abbreviation of acid. Navy had cans just marked lubricant of some sort. Lubricant, Weapon, Mark II or some shit like that.
This is how they’re being utilized now…
Take one example: breaking the two hundred year barrier that says a woman cannot be President and/or is not qualified to be CinC. The fact that Clinton came so close to becoming the nominee suggests to me that the “next time,” whoever makes that run will be able to start from what Clinton accomplished. I think she was right in saying that barrier now has “18 million cracks” in it.
It’s the long view: Even if one believes Clinton was the “wrong” woman (whatever that means), the notion that we’ve come very close to doubling the plausible candidate pool for future Presidents has to be regarded as progress, notwithstanding the disappointment for many.
Exactly. The media doesn’t want to touch Iraq in any way, shape or form. They especially don’t want to look at their role in shoving it down our throats. They just want to move on and not dwell on such icky things.
But as has been said before, to forget the past is to be condemned to repeat it. Misremembering the past will also cause us to repeat it.
Can you guys talk in a way that most of the rest of us understand? Or else perhaps take it to an earlier thread?
I kinda thought this one was about dem primary politics.
Isn’t it interesting that the United States seems to split down the middle so often. Red states v. blue (I mean, factoring in Republican corruption) and the Hillary and Obama contest.
Looking forward to a November landslide… but no predictions. One can never underestimate the DENIAL of the American people, the manipulations of the MSM, and the power and greed of global capitalism.
Gotcha, LSA was the shit they developed after 881 where all those jarheads died because their 16’s jammed. My cousin was in the hill fights and never got over them taking away their 14’s.
Just pass em over betsy.
Without her AUMF vote, and non-apology therefor, there would have been no room for an anti-war candidate, because she could have been that candidate. Then she told the netroots in August 2007 that lobbyists were Americans, too!
Just when her inevitability began to sink in for those of us who wanted a real anti-war candidate, there was Kyl-Lieberman, in late September 2007. Tell me that didn’t motivate some people to work harder for her opponents.
Although we were told this vote, too, was a vote for more diplomacy, in April 2008, she announced that we could obliterate Iran.
There was room for a peace party candidate in 2008, and the Democratic party wanted to be that party. Hillary Clinton proved herself a more imperfect vessel for that impulse than Barack Obama.
thanks. that seems like a good thing to me, even though i wasn’t a clinton supporter. i must have misunderstood your meaning.
Sorry, Ma’am, I’ll refrain… Aloha, btw…! *g*
And that specific post is from John Lennon’s “Working Class Hero” which gas everything to do with this topic from my twisted perspective.
Just stay on topic
And yet we are supposed to believe so much of their crap is about ratings.. but Iraq is intentionally ignored when 60 to 70 percent of Americans want out. They are willfully avoiding what could be very good for ratings, imo.
Yes, thank you. That’s what I heard in a lot of her speech yesterday.
She worked really hard to make that happen.
And, I’m glad she did and I’m on board with defeating McCain. That’s as far as I can go at this point.
oh, yes sir, anything else?
Then please explain why or how.
Are the Repubs trying to pull out some pseudo-Iraqi victory to get eleventh hour attention pre-Nov election to help McCain and company, I wonder? The MSM once again, coming to the rescue? By the time the dust settles, and the real truth be known, … they have caught the wave of yearned for patriotism-rewarded payoff for those clinging to DENIAL?
Like I do
;~P
Christ, everything in the Navy is Mark I, Mod 2 kinda crap. Brass polish was Polish, Metal, Mark ??, Mod ??.
cerveza!
Ooops, I’ll shut up.
Yep–That is EXACTLY what they are doing…stay tuned. It may not work- but they’re gonna give it the ol college try.
Bag, Dirt, 1 Ea
I want to bring the troops home, I will keep troops in Iraq hmm isn’t that McCain’s current position? I think Obama should update this ad and have Hilary’s head morph into McCain’s head with the words in caption and in the background say there is a reason why Hilary lost, but John McCain was not paying attention.
I’ve never thought it was a question of if, just a question of when. Have to be close to the election with all the short term memory folks in this country. Gee, I wonder what Congress will do?
i think that was her choice to make:
When did Edwards drop out of the race. Seems that the whole thing shifted then- with most of Edward’s support going to Obama.
If it was anyone else but you I’d just say stick it but, for your elucidation, I responded to this:
Lennon’s song is rife with irony about the idea of a working class hero to the point that he says, “and you’re still fucking peasants as far as I can see”. So I drew an immediate connection. Is that good enough? As far as on topic off topic. I don’t really care if people like it or not, when it suits people they do it, when it doesn’t they don’t.
Yup.
Actually they were issued in bundles of 50…! Bag, Dirt, 1 bdl… 8-P
My damn name is Mark, what’s the topic Kenneth?
good point. how do you think we can prepare for this possibility?
Oh stop stop, we’re saving the world and you are getting in the way.
When did Obama gain the lead in fundraising- that was a major factor- and the strategy of going all out in caucus states is probably what gave him the nomination.
Balloon Juice has a link to article in Newsweek in which McCain explains that he did not congratulate Hillary and say that the media overlooked because that was just his prepared statement. WTF? Can we now explain to him what a lie is, never mind the flip flops.
It’s just sorta like this: you guys wouldn’t every other thread to be Pull Up a Chair, right? So, just chill, or as Wobbly say’s Slow Your Roll.
We honor what you did. We grieve what happened and is happening.
For those who don’t do Cervesa, have a cup o’ tea.
party like it’s 1999?
After Nevada, before Super T?
Karen Tumulty of Time magazine demonstrates the new conventional wisdom:
Obama’s campaign has been that rare, frictionless machine that runs with the energy of an insurgency and the efficiency of a corporation. . . there have been no staff shake-ups, no financial crises, no change in game plan and no visible strife. Even its campaign slogan — “Change we can believe in” — has remained the same.
Karen thinks corporations are efficient? I’m guessing that she doesn’t cover business for Time or that she believes in Supply Side economics?
Thanks for explaining.
We have to make the Republican brand into a 10-ton anvil and drape it around the neck of any R who takes McCain’s place. More calling out of issues, less personal politics.
swopa, thx for looking further upstream. in retrospect from this point, it certainly all hangs together …
So it’s that damn hard to just skip over the comments huh? And besides Betsy was complaining about something that had nothing to to with what we were discussing in our own little world.
A stinky, smelly 10 ton anvil.
i don’t get it. please take pity on my ignorance.
we were just telling each other a what-if story earlier today that had us supporting clinton after she either voted against the war authorization or came out strongly at beginning of primary season saying it was a mistake and why. of course, for the roots of that vote, look further upstream and at downstream ambition …
Actually I was complaining about your “own little world” going on and on in the middle of a political thread.
ANother point, I wonder why the Unions were not so quick to back Edwards early on? That seemed to be another area Obama excelled.
Edwards dropped out between my absentee vote for him and Super Tuesday.
1/30/08
Edwards suspended his campaign on January 31st. Obama ran off a huge string of victories in February….Hillary actually won more delegates from March on….Apparently it was Edwards leaving when he did that opened the door for Obama.
Well, in my day, It’s just how we referred to, well, a dirtbag.
I didn’t know they came in quantities.
Oh my.
What’s all this about fucking pheasants?
The point is, you can’t, so don’t sweat it. You know
Who do you think they would pick? Would it be someone who would absolutely bring in the 28%ers or somebody who would carry the other 78%? I don’t know if they could pull it off if it was somebody who wasn’t one of their original candidates. Would the “average” Rethug voter put up with it?
They’re kinda small, doncha think?
of course. that’s one of the things they’re trying. if that doesn’t work, war w/ iran conviently close to elections. if that doesn’t work, there’s always gay marriage, flag burning, and brown workers …
Megadildo John Boehner now seems to think that Congress should dicker with the sacred machinery of commerce, because apparently oil has gone through the roof on Speaker Pelosi’s watch.
It’s the “Pelosi Premium? dontcha know?
Congress isn’t doing enough to influence the invisible hand of the market.
These clowns are all over the map.
-G
Since Edwards came in second in Iowa, it’s possible that he was taking votes from Hillary also.
Bet’s, everything is political but I’m going to make it easy for you soe you don’t have to read something you don’t want to. Bye
Probably because he was trailing—unions don’t want to annoy the winner by backing a loser.
Waaaaahhhhh!
There’s also the fact that both Obama and Clinton received more primary votes than anyone previously.
I really wanted Edwards. Was crushed when he dropped out. Would have helped, of course, if the for-profit media had acknowledged his existence once in a while.
Now with the Gitmo trials it is resuming once again, I guess. Dust off your lapel pins.
I heard a radio story about Abu Ghraib (spell?) today and discussing the scapegoating of the soldiers directly involved. I was thinking how the buck stopped there for MSM investigation pretty much. One detail today has stayed with me, the wounds on the body of one “interrogated to death” prisoner were dressed AFTER HIS DEATH for the coverup of the tortures.
SOP… standard operating procedures. But that was not where the MSM spotlights were shone … and the seemingly sadistic-torture-obsessed war criminal top dogs enjoy their freedoms and profiteering and further dark side horrors go on… increasing and at times outsourced.
i don’t have the wisdom to know the difference.
OT OT OT
dunno. maybe kathryn has some ideas?
gnight
He dropped out in early January I think.
I think if he had endorsed Obama at that point, MORE working class would have gone for Obama… but he didn’t… and I think that gave Hillary an advantage. IMHO
I’m not sure how many americans give a shit about Gitmo or Abu or torturing moslems or any of that.
Not a pretty picture- but them’s the facts…
night raven. sorry to have caused you so much aggravation today.
I guess if the SCLM had other things on their minds except “FIRST WOMAN”, or “FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN”, Edwards, might not have been minimized, eh?
The whole buffet, eh.
Jan 31st (I looked it up)
That immediately preceded the Obama February victories that gave him the nomination.
After Feb, Hillary regained her feet ( and found some more fertile states).
She won more delegates than Obama after February- but it was too late.
Hard to make up much ground the way delegates are apportioned once we get to a two person race..
wobblybits – hope you can find your cable…. gotta go but will check back later for links to pics.
Sorry… still learning the boundaries here. Major no no?
Selise — I think I helped with that, at least in the last bit….
So….Wobbly, did you find that m’fing cable yet, ‘casue speaking of pretty pictures, we could prolly uise some cute baby bits pix right now.
Raven — don’t go away mad…just…umn, well, just feel better. You have a lot of people who care about you here. Please, know that. But, we All have feelings. We do.
Kathryn -
as someone who has spent far too much time of late in the fetid swamp that is Maverickanalia – they will have to pry his fingers from the door of that damn bus – this is the ultimate opportunity for the ultimate opportunist – he’s not going anywhere
No
I don’t think Edwards’ supporters went to Obama en masse, and I don’t think there were that many of us anyway. Making it a two-person race might have assisted Obama in February, but that the third person leaving was Edwards mattered very little.
Obama’s organization in caucus states and primaries the Clinton campaign ignored until too late is what got him the nomination: a search for delegates in a contest designed to award the nomination to the candidate with the most delegates.
Careful of Agism we need the older vote. It is much better to do as you did and lead with calling McCain a liar than a flip flopper people might get the idea you are making fun of his Senior Moments, please do not reverse the order.
I never thought I would see a campaign where calling someone a liar was the more polite thing to do.
But yes I am worried about loosing the Senior vote.
As far as explaining what a lie is to McCain well much like Bush I am convinced McCain has convinced himself of his own reality. Maybe by drinking the coolaid acceptance McCain accepted all the beliefs of the White House bunker mentality/ Groupmind of yesmen Bush enablers.
Our groupmind at the Lake avoids this problem by letting people voice dissent and to profit by it by getting attention admiration from others instantly if we form a good dissent.
We don’t have a Decider passing out cookies to people as rewards to people who agree with him.
Mark Penn’s little math gaffe on Cali’s delegates didn’t help Hill’s overall chances, eh? ;-)
I agree and disagree. Agree with the second paragraph. But in the first … I think there were a fair number of Edwards/Dodd/Kucinich people who were far more likely to move to Obama than to Clinton.
Yeah, he was my guy too, early on. But he had no base of support outside of the netroots, whereas both Clinton and Obama had large power bases – Clinton’s being made up of Democratic party establishment types like Ed Rendell, Obama’s being based in Illinois but influenced by guys like Gephardt, who had strong union and organizing ties even after he left Congress.
I think the public is so psychologically allergic to the betraying status quo leadership of this country that finally being a white male was a MAJOR disadvantage, even though Edwards had grown such an altruistic sensibility. The vast majority of DEMS, anyway, being non-establishment has been a historical window of opportunity overcoming the resistance of racism and sexism, still existing in this country, but CHANGE and the hope of change and our country going morally and economically bankrupt is finally waking MANY people up. But there will be a mighty backlash and some bloodbathing from the minority of prejudiced, ethically disabled ones.
Many older people are questioning whether they would have (and whether McShame does have) the stamina and acuity to run the country.
I was one of those Edwards supporters that migrated to Obama and ended up caucusing for him here in Hawaii…!
I think I agree with you. If Most/All/EnMasse supporters had gone directly to Obama, without going to jail or passing go and getting $200, then the race wouldn’t have bee so close. I don’t think.
Oh hell, does everything come down to how great a campaign you can wage? Down to the nth degree?
I guess so, with the process that we have.
:(
We needed a candidate who hadn’t voted for the war, else no contrast with McCaint. I became convinced at the end of Edwards’ campaign that he wouldnt be right, despite his disavowal of his vote. He had disavowed too much (almost all) of his Senate record, and TradMed would eviscerate him over it.
No- I don’t think they did either- but as long as he was in the race pulling 20%, it was difficult to see how the two way race was going- after he left, it became clear- and it happened JUST as Obama was going into the states that would win it for him…
If Edwards had stayed in through February, we might have had a different outcome.
Where was my $200??
Edwards had no money to continue, and he wasn’t pulling 20% at the end anyway.
Yeah- I vaguely remember that- he didn’t realize how the delegates would be allocated right?
Yep, right down to the nth degree…! We do need to change the system fundamentally, certainly need to move to a Public Financed system, amongst other notable changes… Namely, getting rid of the two party structure…
Yes, there is that!
But you never know what fate will deal….
No? I thought I remembered that he had a pretty consistent 20% to the end- but perhaps I’m wrong.
Yep, he thought it was like the Repug system, winner takes all…! ;-)
I migrated to Obama more slowly, because of Edwards not immediately endorsing him in January and February, which I figured would be a cake walk so that gave me pause. Also being female and from NY … was getting heavily encouraged to go for Clinton … but I finally did decide on Obama … more from some of Hillary’s not so admirable campaigning behavior than Obama’s, though I have always been a fan of his ability to actually indulge in spontaneous thoughtfulness before he speaks, even with a mike in front of his face and “sound bite pressure” awaiting.
Issues the Economy, War and National healthcare if we work to own these issues that are the voters biggest concerns then we leave McCain either trying to copy us like he is on the war. Or we leave him on the wrong side of the voters on these issues.
Which means McCain might try and change the game the GOP way and go racial/class politics which in an election where voters are polarized 70/30 our way and are paying attention just look at the Primary election numbers.
Well the ugly 30%er GOP base frightens away the GOP moderate voters and in an age of the internet McCain can’t motivate his base in secret without the GOP moderate voters finding out because this time they are paying attention.
Hmmm I wonder what other issues McCain will copy from or lie about to seem more like Obama before this election is done? Lying though would work better if voters were not paying attention.
Fear won’t work either 7 years of Bush letting Ossama live in Pakistan while Bush wasted time in Iraq has left the GOP very vulnerable.
And that’s a sad commentary on our society.
Much as I wanted to believe in Edwards, your point is exactly why I filled in the Kucinich bubble on my primary ballot.. Felt good to vote FOR someone, issues and all.. damn good! I like that honest, competent, scrapper..)
weebits photo update. mr wobbs was the last to upload pix and he believes that he might haveleft the cable in his classroom at school. So looks like (unless he is mistaken about its location) pics will be posted tomorrow evening :(
Oh, heck, I dunno. Do you have any outstanding bills with the state? That’s where my economic stimulus check went. errrrr.
Still. Whatever.
What you and I could spend $200 on, heh?
((((Betsy!!!)))
Very nice! now, if only we could come up with sound bites to trump “Pelosi Premium” etc.
but demi – it isn’t just bells and whistles – their “great campaign” included millions of first time voters and volunteers.
this dfh isn’t anyone’s starry eyed Obamabot – but they are sending energy and power through once moribund lines, our frequent talk of infrastructure here is being realized –
retaining Dr Dean was a good first step, but the question for all of us is where is our place within it and begin exerting influence – yesterday
Not to mention that damn haircut. People STILL bring that up. The power of the media!
Love them ‘technical difficulties’…! ;-)
I stimulated a new cell phone. :)
Road trip for Mr Wobbs!
McOctain?
Wobbly, your comp doesn’t have a media card reader?
Fear won’t work either 7 years of Bush letting Ossama live in Pakistan while Bush wasted time in Iraq has left the GOP very vulnerable.
True, true, true. You CameTogether on that one. *g*
Gives us something to look forward to.
Just thought I’d drive by before tip off. Cell phones, rebates and cables are political topics huh? Dig yourselves.
Bullscheiss. This is Entronizing the whole country. The BushCo Big Oil gang came in on energy exploitation/rip-off and they’ll go out the same way. Gas hit $4 a gallon here in the tall timber where it’s cold and rainy and the fire’s goin’ in the fireplace.
Energy policy…and sunshine on secret energy meetings matters.
Prairie Today: Enronizing the Rest of Us
Pretty stupid mistake- Clinton got nailed on a haircut story and so, I believe, did Kerry…
I’m trying to stay on topic after my chastisement! :)
brilliant!
Priorities…
We come back on topic quickly and 99% of the people here understand the comments we write.
Heh! Go Celts!!!
Yeah … and Obama complained about the price of “arugula” to working class people.
They needed to take “down home” lessons from George W … acting he can do.
That is good for us still I don’t want our side to insult McCain about his age.
I don’t want to piss off the older voters because McCain wil pounce on this as a wedge issue.
Calling McCain a liar however will let him keep his pride which for a power hungry guy like McCain who would hug the guy who called his kid a bastard just to become president well a open loss of control in front of the world for him is worst than being called liar.
Well, there are a few of us here the same age as Raven and the dragon, and i, for one, enjoy the comments in the margins.
I believe that many in that audience were arugula farmers, something that was quickly lost by the for-profit media.
Oh, and Waaaahhhhh!!
I can’t argue with the number of young and first time voters.
I have my own reasons for being slow to climb on the Obama train. As, I said before, I will vote for him over McCain in a heartbeat.
I do have my reservations about the walking on water thing. I have my doubts and telling me that it’s not all bells and whistles isn’t substantial enough to sway me at this point.
Still…I think McCain and everything is speaks for and stands for sucks dog weenies. Sorry for that visual.
Exxon had $40.7 billion in profits last year. Duh! So what are we paying for?
That is ripe fodder for a good sound bite .. can you refine that a tad?
$4.07 at the pump = $40.7B profits for Exxon.
How’s that?
This?
That’s just a Summer home, mind you…
Does that make it beer light?
(you’re being cute tonight.)
For the record, Obama was talking to arugula farmers in Iowa. It was the reference to selling their product at Whole Foods (there are none in Iowa) that puzzled them, not the reference to arugula.
Just in case anyone asks you about it….
nope. it’s a powerbook (3 years old).
Paying for? intertwining roots in Aspen, ranchos in Paraguay and Patagonia, palaces in SA, corp jets while the “riff-raff” ride coach….
shall I continue?
true. pity though. i wanted you all to see this lil sweetie tonight.
Too cute for my own good… got a radio face.
;~P
Really??? I stand corrected. I guess if it makes a good story, you TRIM the truth around the edges. Thanks.
Was just making a point that candidates are in a different life style category from the rest of their constituency for the most part. Kerry trying to be athletic with his wind-surfing gave them ammunition.
Bush living on the faux ranch, chopping wood in his flannel shirt.
Spirit of anti-intellectualism and I think that with class resentment, too, those stereotypes get negatively mixed. Uppity liberals!
Bush pulled off being a NON-intellectual (oy vey… since it is too true) as well as the “common” man persona. That made him more trustworthy and more one of the people from the get go. (appeared on Oprah show and that helped launch him, too)
Even today. WWho could believe he was related to a highbrow from New England named Prescott who was a Nazi enabler?
At one time it was winner take all. That’s how McGovern went over the top in ‘72 by taking California with only something like 35-37% of the vote but because it was winner take all, it put him over the top on delegates.
Not to excuse Penn as it should have been part of his job to know the distribution rules for all the states, it’s possible for folks to know that something was a certain way and not fully realize that the rules had changed.
working class people don’t eat arugula? i better tell the mr
Damn, who can afford to shop at Whole Foods anyhow? Upscale natural foods store. My ass. Nice way to show strangers that ya know how to spend money, though.
Holy cow… we’re on some similar kind of page. I’m listening to Who Stole My Radio, right now.
thanks for that clarification. i had heard he was talking to farmers of some sort just couldn’t remember which ones.
DHinMI has a good, in-depth examination here, which is probably best summed up thus: They fought a 1992 campaign with 1992 people in the year 2008 against a guy who may be the best politician of the past three generations.
I wish someone would tell me, Kathryn! If Exxon gets $40.7 billion in profits (a statistic I got off the radio, btw) … why didn’t that profit money go to reducing the price of gas? Didn’t Congressional committee, too, ask the Exxon execs what their yearly incomes were and they huffily didn’t find that relevant of course …. but incomes were astronomical (SOP). Looks like economic rape to me! AM I MISSING SOMETHING?
we buy some stuff from there but most our stuff comes from farmer’s market or trader joe’s
okay…okay…. I am an uppity New Yorker…. sorry if I offended….
I guess I don’t eat arugula and I over-generalized? …. iceberg or boston… with me…. :)
Just give her pets and kisses from her FDL aunties and unkas….
Smooch, smooch smooch.
I can almost smell her baby kitty fur.
Hey, if that ain’t OT…Ha!
Thanks, done.
New Siun post
wasn’t trying to sway you – what I should have said was -
imagine someone coming up with a way to use solar powered bullet trains on existing railroad lines – that is what his campaign has done for the Democratic party –
I really wasn’t talking about him (although he deserves a great deal of credit for it), I was talking about what they have laid down in terms of networks and communicating with one another – no more scattershot, disparate, isolated campaigns and causes . . . if we so choose
better ?
uppity, no way *g*
I just know lots of folks in the heartland eat/grow arugula
Yeah… it was rhetorical… but thanks for the beginning of the specific list.
Who stole my face?
You can have it!
I will. She loves kisses
Terrific analysis of why hands down she’s the best candidate for VP.
:) thanks… no, that was good for me to hear back. those assumptions can do one in. lazy thinking for the sake of a satiric point.
I do hear ya.
Nice train metaphor, also. :)
hey, wobbly:
you get some bib overalls yet?
;~P
see ya raven — have a good nite. looking forward to chatting w/ you more l8r.
nope. but i made a momma sling (mr wobbs uses it too).
Oh, gosh, don’t make me drive from Sylmar to the Palisades on a Sunday night. Ya got me smelling baby kitty fur. I’ll just have to settle for taking the big old hound dog for a walk.
(But, sometime this summer… I may have to meet you at the beach. :)
Did you mean race-baiting?
Over at Cliff’s place you made this same claim. I know you’re asserting it. A lot of people assert the earth is flat too.
I’m waiting for your response over at Cliff’s place to this exact question.
You
Well shown! Concrete images beat abstract speculations every time!
He was talking about helping the farmers get their arugula into Whole Foods, so they could make more money.
ack no, we don’t live in palisades *g*. we’re in palos verdes (much more hippie dems here)
LOL mr wobbs apologizes for foolishly leaving the cable at work. our neighbor has the same camera so when he returns, we’ll borrow his.
Thanks, I think.
;~P
What about your best friend?
Enough with the identity politics.
All those issues you mentioned are “fair game.” HRC was no better on them than Obama.
I’m saving your post ACitizen. I want to see how well HRC does on exactly the issues you mentiioned, going forward.
Took Min in for her quarterly blood sugar/BP check and there was a pic on the wall of 2 baby tigers who need a home. Had to stop myself. Gonna wait for an older tiger to cross my path. Ain’t gettin’ any younger. Good news with Min though. No change in meds, blood sugar staying steady, same with BP and she’s gaining weight. Nice to have some good news from the vet for a change. The last year hasn’t been real great in that dept.
Oh I know that. I was dissin’ Whole Foods.
Safely “downstairs”, and at the risk of being “Off Topic”… Like I’m ever “On Topic”…
Gitmo?
End of the 1st.
Now I’m waiting for the guidelines for posting. 99% of the people have to understand what you are talking about, we can go off topic but only for___ number of posts, no side conversations about topics that are interesting to you but that “most people” don’t care about, don’t disturb the delicate sensibilities of “long time posters”. . .what am I missing? Now, I suggest that all of you that have your own blogs modify these as you see fit and mind your own business here.
OMG yet one more thread of this why-Hillary-lost-why-Barack-won crap. I cannot believe we are still discussing this, and to what end? It is O.V.E.R. and we need to move on to see a Democrat in the WH. I skipped most of the thread when I saw that it was gonna be another Hillary v. Obama discussion.
Maybe tomorrow can we put this to bed and get on with it? Everything that could possibly be said HAS BEEN SAID. Jeebus.
You have zero liberal credentials with me.
All the liberals understood we could only expect so much out of a Democratic President. It has little to do with whether it’s HRC or Obama. What’s helping liberals the most is that Bush’s sabre rattling around Iran is driving the price of crude even higher.
I hope my impression of your liberal credentials changes going forward.
Ooops. Sorry, wrong “P” beach. Even further for me. But, still…I think a summer meet up is in order.
Happy you’re in a more hippie/dem place. I was thinking the Palisades was kinda snooty for you. Okay, I was right.
You bring up an excellent point.
HRC should go on Oprah asap. They would love her.
Playin’ Whack-a-Troll are we?
Much appreciated.
Yes, energy that is needed to smash McSane.
Walks away shaking head.
that is great news !!!!!!
Bullseye, as per usual.
hehe. mr wobbs has two more weeks of classes then we are off to brasil for a bit. lilbit and weebit will be with some friends.
Thanks.
Yeah, I was real happy. She has to stay all day when I take her in for this and my stress level was up there all day. Just waiting for a shoe to drop.
You have a blog?
It’s curious to see so much defending of The Clintons on Liberal blogs.
We spend 90% of our time, and owe our existence to fighting for a truly Liberal agenda, and working to kick out forces such as the DLC from our ranks.
The Clintons are considered practically founders of the DLC and certainly champions of the DLC cause, which is proven by Hillary’s legislative and Bill’s Presidential records. Hillary has served as head of the DLC and is CURRENTLY on the DLC’s “Leadership Team.”
So we’ve already kicked out a DLCer in Traitor Joe Lieberman with the Ned Lamont campaign. We’re actively pushing back against the insanities of Rahm Emmanuelle, Harold Ford, Jr. and other DLCers.
Why would we want to expend our very limited resources on promoting a DLCer, and one of the most DeeCee Insider candidates we’ve ever had, back into the Executive branch?
breathe easy.
be back in a bit
dinner time
He’s a teacher, yes? Where?
My brother-in-law (the evil Muslim – ha) teaches at Loyola Marymount and just won proff of the year. Woo Hoo.
We can hook up any time. Later or sooner….I ain’t goin’ anywhere – that I know of.
I was just gettin’ ready for a late din din myself.
Dude, it’s like 10ish there, where you live?
Better make it a light one. Here we’re getting ready to go take a quick dip before din din.
I’m happy for Min’s prognosis, also in the debt dept. :)
Please stop with such obviously false obfuscations.
I had no particular problem with HRC until Bosnia (March). I disliked she and Obama equally, but I was always going to support the winner.
Not admitting the Bosnia error was a whole lot worse than the error itself, which was not insignificant. Nobody lies about combat or pseudo-combat experience. You just don’t do it and I can’t believe no one in her campaign told her. Stories of the affluence with which the upper echelons of her staff traveled also were big to me, along with the fact that she allowed her campaign to go so deeply into debt. Those issues obviously held little sway with her core supporters. I think we desperately need her as a VP. If it’s not her, it has to be a woman, but no one else has anywhere near her drawing power.
cbl2, any good renewable energy blogs you recommend?
Thanks in advance for all the good you and Mr. cbl2 provide to this community.
Paul, after calling Marcy a liar and reading so much
garbageintensely inaccurate spin from you, please provide a link.we’re trying to say that the downfall of clinton was not her attacks against obama because edwards did the same thing to her
however edwards lost, you can’t use a failing strategy to point out that that’s not why she failed, it might be a contributing factor to why edwards failed as well
I believe there really can’t be a big doubt, hillary treated obama like he was on a differant team, had she treated him as if he were on the same team and gone after mccain she would have had a far better shot
For me it’s strictly a national issue. Liberals had to tolerate HRC’s Vichy Dem approach, because she wanted to run for POTUS. IMHO, she’s the best choice for VP to get another Vichy Dem, Obama into the WH.
I’m try to be a realist about what we can expect of Presidential candidates. I think we can ask a lot more of less national figures.
A lot of good points are made on this thread, but the bottom line is that the US will have been ruled by Bushes or Clintons for the last 20 years (1989-2009) come next inauguration day. And things are all screwed up. The public is just not ready for another Clinton come right now (nor another Bush, either). Unfair, perhaps, but that’s the bottom line.
Completely OT, but this is serious…
“According to the May 1, 2008 CCC inventory report there are only 24.1 million bushels of wheat in inventory, so after this sale there will be only 2.7 million bushels of wheat left the entire CCC inventory,” warned Matlack. “Our concern is not that we are using the remainder of our strategic grain reserves for humanitarian relief. AAM fully supports the action and all humanitarian food relief. Our concern is that the U.S. has nothing else in our emergency food pantry. There is no cheese, no butter, no dry milk powder, no grains or anything else left in reserve. The only thing left in the entire CCC inventory will be 2.7 million bushels of wheat which is about enough wheat to make ½ of a loaf of bread for each of the 300 million people in America.”
http://www.tristateobserver.co…..;sid=10121
Hillary’s polls were on average at 42 percent when she started – and she finished with 43. She didn’t go either up or down much over the course of the campaign.
OTOH, Obama started at 22 percent – and finished at 50.
Hillary didn’t so much lose as Obama just flat out won. Period.
Yes, all politics is local after all, but I simply think there’s a new political calculus afoot that has not been experienced by anyone before. Obama’s campaign just confirmed in the last few days that they have now raised more than Shrub did in his entire 2004 race against Kerry…and the General is just starting!!
Couple that with the fact that the overwhelming majority of that money has come from middle to poorer class people, averaging approx $85/donation, and we’re seeing a grassroots, bottom-up movement never seen before in America in terms of numbers.
Basically, we don’t need the Clintons and their fellow DLCers anymore. Perhaps we can expose them and kick them out once and for all, like their friend Traitor Joe Lieberman. I think Obama is the most Liberal candidate I’ve ever had a chance to vote for in a Presidential General Election, even though he does compromise those ideals sometimes. Certainly, it remains to be seen how much he compromises, which is true of any candidate.
Just don’t agree that we need to play to the mythical “center” anymore, especially with the VP pick, since Obama’s going to dominate with just about any Dem running mate, and VP picks are highly overrated as far as effecting the Election outcome.
We should keep the Clintons and fellow DLCers as far away as possible. We don’t need them and they’ll only work to undermine us, as they have done on the past.
As an Edwards supporter I find your comment amusing. I, and others, were yelling last Spring that neither Obama nor Clinton were Progressives or even Liberals. To hear you say the Clintons were like FDR and JFK sounds as silly to me as all the “Obama is just like Kennedy” stuff.
In the end it appears the public just don’t know who the candidates are unless they’ve been in the news for years or received national attention by giving the Convention keynote speech.
Those of us dedicated to supporting Edwards bickered a bit over whether he was/is an authentic Progressive and sincere in all his policy plans. Something is wrong when we can’t say for certain that ANY of our leading candidates is 100% pure Democratic and perhaps Progressive.
How is it we can be more certain of who and what our candidates are? Can we ever improve the process to ensure we get what we want in a nominee?
::Less than two weeks later, the John Edwards ad at the top of this post helped crystallize the emerging critique of Hillary, saving Barack the trouble of having to go explicitly negative himself. (Anyone who thinks Clinton was too harsh in attacking Obama should take a look at the ad — as far as I know, Team Hillary never produced anything this brutal in terms of personal ridicule.) ::
And it is an ad that is ripe to be remade with John McCain in the starring role.