I mean, how the hell would they really know? I don’t think I’ll be revealing anything new by pointing out that most of the time, people’s public images are bullshit. Fergawdsakes, we’ve just about endured eight years of a president whose public image was sold to us as a regular guy who was like regular people, and he was anything but — more like a rich frat kid on steroids.
What’s Hillary Clinton really like? I don’t pretend to know. I did go to Hillary’s breakout at YearlyKos last year and sat fairly close, in the second row, and I came away deeply impressed. Her mastery of policy, her decisiveness and decency and her personal affability were all on display. Lord knows I felt better going away because, if nothing else, the sheer competence she displayed was a world away from the disastrous presidency we’ve been enduring.
In the end, I settled behind Obama — not out of any deficiency of Hillary’s really, but rather what more he brings to the table. But I never have stopped admiring Hillary, nor have I stopped appreciating what she and her husband have achieved. As Digby says:
I see the Clintons as warrior chiefs against the hardcore conservative movement machine that nearly crippled this country (but which may have just run its course after drifting into decadence and hubris.) But, at the time of the movement’s greatest power and influence, no one took more crap or was more deft at beating them back. I, for one, am grateful to both of them for taking a nearly unbelievable amount of heat from both the media and the Republicans during that era — and surviving.
When she concedes this morning, I hope every one of us remembers that and is grateful for the fighting spirit she brought to this campaign. We will need it into November.
The speech is scheduled for broadcast at 12 pm EDT, 9 am PDT. Be sure to watch.
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zed?
I suppose you are right. Nothing is gained with recriminations, but forgetting the sniper fire, there was her claim she and McCain were ready but she didn’t know about Obama. If she can forget her failed ambition and get behind Obama honestly, there’s no point in raking old coals. As I see it, it’s up to her, not me.
Clinton lost because of her AUMF vote, then never conceding it was a mistake.
Hillary is not a progressive, she is DLC senator.
The Democratic Party suffered under the Bill Clinton presidency, in part because of his willingness to triangulate against the liberal wing of the party.
The Clintons were not interested in building a strong national Democratic Party, they were interested in building a power base for themselves.
Oui! Hiya, Dave!
Dude, I gotta agree with you on Clinton. I have always admired her tenacity, intelligence, and competence. I truly hope she plays a prominent role in the Obama campaign and in his administration, if he wins the general election.
Dave, I’ve been ambivalent about the choice between Obama and Clinton since Edwards dropped out. I was inclined to follow Edwards’ lead when he endorsed Obama. That said, thank you for this post (and, the previous one). I do appreciate Clinton, her campaign, her energy, and the pressure she faced from the beginning. That takes nothing away from Obama who also had huge obstacles to overcome. Presented with two strong, capable candidates it was apparent early, even though one would have to drop out because only one could win, it would be difficult to watch. I feel a great empathy for Hillary’s supporters. She put up a heck of a fight. And, I can even forgive Bill’s missteps in her campaign because, to me, it demonstrates his loyalty to her, and fierceness of feeling for her. You are correct to honor her this way, and I appreciate that you’ve done so. Thanks.
She voted for the war, Spuds. END OF STORY!
Plus her lack of gallantry in defeat is truly appalling.
Yes she’s a smart politician, but she doesn’t walk on water.
I find it interesting how much this fact is glossed over.
I love this place, but the leadership here is killing me.
How FDL can go 4 days without one post of congratulations to Sen. Obama, I find mind boggling, not to mention offensive.
During that same period there’s been several asking what Sen. Clinton wants, what her supporters want, etc.
But no room to take in the historic significance of what occurred Tuesday.
I was at that breakout with Hillary last summer too. In the second row as well. Howdy, Dave!
Somewhere (can’t find it now) was reading a post and evaluation of the Clinton women voters…… an analysis of the breakdown age v their claim of sexism in the race. It broke it down that women over 65 who didn’t work outside the home or worked in areas with limited opportunities were in the pessimist group where HRC was due the nomination, that there was all sexism and everyone was “out to get her”…..
then the other group of women are the ones that were classed as optimistic, they were higher educated, they see women working in all areas and succeeding in professions. This is the group that are movable to Obama but the others might not…..
Wish I remember where I read this…..
This is realpolitik. Hillary lost because she did not win. You don’t get to be president, whether it’s Kerry or Clinton or Gore, if you cannot win the primary. I empathize with the disappointment of feminists for a female president, but Clinton is a professional and she knows this is how politics go. Including the unjust public labeling.
The thing is, she LOST. She lost an primary that was supposed to be a “gimme.” That means she’s not ready to be president, period. And she lost with the not-too-subtle help of a right-wing media that WANTED to run against her because she was the more familiar opponent. Right now in Right-wing think-tanks all across America, bumper stickers and leaflets bearing names like “Whitewater” and “Foster” are being shoveled into bonfires, while others are being printed that say “Rezko” and “Wright.”
If you have any question about whether or not Obama can win the general, just keep in mind that he has already beaten the combined Murdoch and Clinton electoral machines, and now Clinton will presumably be working FOR him. If Obama wins by a large enough margin, the Republicans won’t even be able to fix all the Diebold voting results again. If my liberal urban neighborhood shows McCain getting 51% of the vote instead of 20%, we’ll know the fix is in.
Hillary Clinton lost. That’s the final test of her qualifications for the presidency this year. Good luck to her in 2012. Meanwhile, unless we want four more years of thinly-veiled fascism, and a fully-conservative Supreme Court, we’d better get to work.
Patience, not your virtue, eh?
It was never about HRC’s “bitchiness” for me, goodness I have a picture of her and my (then) seven year old daughter at an event years ago after my daughter gave her some flowers. It was about two things (1) my feeling of her sense of entitlement and inevitability in becoming #44 and (2) the whole bush-clinton-bush-clinton. Dynastic politics just doesn’t sit well with me, a quibble, perhaps, but it still bugged me.
As Democrats we stronger for having her on the team. I wish she had spent a little less time damaging Obama when it became clear it was a two-person nominating fight and gone after McCain more.
And I wish she had never voted for that stupid war. That was the ultimate Clitonian Triangulation, a bet she should not have made and it cost her, arguably less than the 4000+ Americans who have died, but she has now paid a price for that vote as well.
The main thing I disliked about her campaign was the idea that being First Lady made her more qualified to be President. Is Laura Bush now a front runner for a future Republic nomination? Hillary’s qualifications have nothing to do with being First Lady. Making that claim just makes eyes roll.
Hey, Loo Hoo. I was seated near Jeralyn Merritt.
Hiya Katy! Howz Phoenix? Can’t be any hotter than North Carolina right now…LOL!
man alive I wsh I cld edit tha LOL… :^)
Well, her complimentary speech about McCain and Hillary being the best choice for COC has now been made into a political ad for McCain.
I don’t consider that the actions of a decent person. I consider that a cold, calculating effort to be sure that the maximum damage be done should Obama win. Not unlike Bush aiming to set in place things that the next president cannot undo.
She is a Republican.
I must say chelsea’s mothers day tribute choked me up
it is quite a thing for the child of a politician to be able to say their parent managed to make it to every event…man, were I a politician, would I be able to do that?
that is quite a women indeed
and oh
chelsea is hawt!
I agree that her vote for the AUMF was the chief strike against her, and I was even more aggravated by her refusal to admit it was a mistake.
And hey. We’ll have all summer to appreciate Obama, folks. And Christy’s post yesterday expressed a great deal of appreciation for his achievement.
Can’t be any hotter than North Carolina right now…LOL!
Send some of that hot over my way, huh?
Water, water everywhere. Indiana is under water…
I essentially agree with what you say, David. I continue to respect her abilities. I believe she lost because her campaign failed to have any plan after February 4 and lost eleven states in a row. In desparation, she then began to make statements which were detrimental to a Democratic victory in November (There is still some fancy dancing to explain how she could now decide Obama has sufficient experience to be preferable to McCain). It then seemed to me that her own victory became more important than other, more important causes. Nevertheless, I welcome her back into a united party and believe she has the ability to make significant contributions to improving our country.
What Crosstimbers said…
I have said this from the start
hillary didn’t recognize that she and obama are on the same team, had they both tag teamed against mccain she would have had a far better chance
AND the important part, had she not won she would have been a more likley vp candidate
While I understand your sentiments Dave, my partner who worked in the Clinton WH for 8 years will testify that she is cold and calculating, as for the nasty word, well, it is all in ones perseption Add that to how she ran her campaign and allowing the likes of Lanny(LIEberman) Davis and James Mary Matalin Carville be her attack dogs….she did NOT do herself or reputation any good. While Digby’s missive about what the Clintons went thru from the wingnuts was right on…too bad we progressives who didn’t support her had to watch her do to Obama what was done to her and her husband…sad indeed!
Me too. I was happy that Hillary called on Jeralyn.
Well, I haven’t yet encountered a politician who wasn’t calculating. Obama fits that description too.
Don’t know…. was in NYC this last week….. now they were really whining about the mid 90’s for this weekend…. lets see the weather channel says it will be between 100 – 104….. but very low humidity…. perfect….
Which is why it has been so hard (and maybe why so many are so angry) as a Clinton supporter to have endured listening to so many Democrats, namely Obama supporters, sounding no different toward her than the GOP in service to Sen. Obama’s campaign.
DailyKos and Huffington Post became veritable cesspools of Clinton bashing. I had many Obama supporters respond to posts of mine suggesting they sound no different about Clinton than Republicans by actually saying they now see that Republicans were correct.
I had been posting on the Huffington Post for a couple of years, before the primary, and was summarily dismissed as it became more and more ensconced in their Obama drum beating, despite my never having uttered an uncivil word, not to mention my having been told by Obama supporters that I should kill myself, among other shocking incivilities.
I was unwelcome at FDL, a site I’d recommended to so many friends because of its intelligence and depth and seeming civility (as long as everyone agreed that Obama was the one, turns out).
I must say, after listening to months of calls for Clinton to just walk away from a very close race, one that could easily have swung over to her, esp. in light of Obama’s spiraling weaknesses in the last month or so, to be reading mea culpas now about how wonderful Hillary Clinton is rather grates.
That darned Peter Daou!
It depends on wht the word “calculating” means.
Nah, I don’t think that makes her a republican it makes her very guilty of getting bad advice on campaign strategery from some overpaid Democratic consultants with bad track records for winning elections and such. The post-mortems on her mistakes are being written now (although I think it’s too soon for most), and one the biggest things I think will eventually come out is how much reliance she put in the Mark Penns, Harold Ickes and Howard Wolfsons to make up her strategy. They are the ultimate Washington “Insiders” in every sense of the word who ran a campaign against someone who out-thought, out-fought, and out-organized them on the ground and in the air almost everywhere. She fought the fight she thought she had to fight, not the one she needed to fight. Forgive the para-rumsfeld-speak.
Anybody with the character traits necessary to (1) want to be president and (2) live a life that make them even close to a viable candidate has got to be completely off the fucking deep end in comparison to ordinary people. It is foolish to be concerned about this.
What I am concerned about is the likelihood that a given candidate is going to completely fuck up the entire world.
I always had fun seeing if Ariana could top herself in UGLY pictures of Hillary.
It’s no fun being put in a no-win situation by your readers. Thousands are pissed because I’m appreciating Hillary. And you’re pissed because we didn’t support her enough beforehand.
You may have been made to feel unwelcome here by commenters, but that’s just your own thin skin. The writers here did not.
Like an prosecutor going after a defendant so harshly that the jury is
alienated by the performance, HRC waged a Nixonesque campaign against
a fellow Democrat and lost the election. That lack of judgement made the
talk of 3 am moot, plus her roommate problem doomed her bid. Redemption
awaits with a successful fall campaign and plenty of work for all after
that. Hopefully we can move on to the tasks ahead.
I don’t think people are pissed for the Hillary appreciation, she is ver accomplished. I think many are still trying to understand her justifications for what she did during the primary. Especially now that we are beginning to see her used by her former enemies against the Democratic nominee.
I think that deserves scrutiny
Now come on, Redd.
You know I’m a big fan of yours and this blog, but don’t make me pull this post over and open up a can of “Letter From Birmingham Jail” on ya’ll.
Specifically, the part where Dr King offers the following:
“For years now I have heard the word “Wait!” It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity…”
I know the patience of which you speak has it’s virtues, but it’s been 4 days now, and I don’t get this undertone of ‘If we say something nice about Sen. Obama now, we’ll salt off the Sen. Clinton supporters.’
I also have empathy for Sen. Clinton’s supporters, and would have celebrated her cause as well had she won the nomination.
I really don’t care about “cold and calculating” — or any other personal quality. I want results.
Look, let’s get back to the bottom line. The Clintons were and are center-right politicians. They became “virtual liberals” thanks to the grotesque jihaad launched against them by a dying “Conservative” cabal. The attacks nomionally against them were in fact against liberalism itself. The attacks succeeded to the degree that “liberal” has become a dirty word that liberals don’t use any more — substituting the namby-pamby “progressive” in its stead. And fooling no one.
Hillary Clinton would best be described as a right-wing Rockefeller Republican.
Barack Obama is in old-fashioned Chicago machine politician with a remarkable ability to speak in clear, concise, literate sentences.
This system will not change until it is torn down and rebuilt from top to bottom.
I first came to this realization in 1967.
For the moment we could certainly do a lot worse than Obama. I’m voting for him because I’ll be in the booth voting against the proposition to constitutionally outlaw same-sex marriage in California.
Bah. Juno everyone was picking and choosing. I agree that some places were not all that friendly to one or the other candidates views. But for every Clinton-basher on The Great Orange Satan all you had to do was travel over to Talkleft and get your head bitten off if you were an Obama supporter. It’s over. Personally, I was not onboard for either of them after Edwards left, but now I’m thrilled to see Obama headed down the stretch…had it been HRC, I’d have been happy too (well, except for that AUMF thing).
Sorry you felt “flamed” or whatever. Life goes on. Welcome back?
I think, if people were honest, most here would say I do not have thin skin. I stuck around, came back, took the punches anyway. My post was not a complaint, it was an observation.
I was referring to commenters, btw, and perhaps I should have made that clear. However, I did read an article about the left blogosphere that quoted a couple of blog principals and mocking Clinton supporters over their complaints about how they’d been treated on those blogs, literally mocking them and saying, “tough toenails. Go somewhere else.”
The problem for me with this was that it seemed to run counter to Obama’s very message of unity and changing the tone, not to mention the left’s position on inclusiveness.
I’m not pissed because you didn’t support her enough beforehand. I think if you supported Obama, he is who you should have been putting your efforts toward promoting, and indeed NOT supporting Clinton, his opponent. (And it is indeed unfortunate that neither side could support their candidate without badly harming the other).
I am saying that, after listening to months of really vile and harmful abuse directed at her, esp. after having gone through it with the GOP for a decade, to listen to praise when it is safe to put it out there could strike some as disingenuous, pandering, and offensive. It might also appear that Obama’s supporters did in fact engage in politics as usual in order to secure his nomination.
I believe that Hillary ran a conventional campaign but the Barak ran a campaign based on two theories:
1) the wrong way polls say America wanted change and Barak could sell himself as a visionary new way politician (not saying he isn’t just that he can make the sale) which is an implicit attack on Hillary as same old politician etc.
2) the delegate selection process allows activists to have a significant disproportional effect. (primary vs. caucus) and by running an activist internet based field operation vs media, large rallies campaign, he could win the caucus states and because of proportionality not lose too badly in the primaries, to win the delegate race. In other words by having 10 field offices in Colorado (less than a normal media buy), staging a 10,000 person rally two days before the primary, he could get the 30,000 odd activists to give him a 2-1 turnout.
This is a discussion of tactics and strategy. What will work in the general election is not clear to me but it is clear he is running an innovative campaign. I say that as a Hillary supporter who will gladly vote for him over any Republican from Franciso Franco to John McCain.
I trust you all realize that Dr. King’s “I have a dream” speak was NOT the lead item in press coverage of the March on Washington.
The lead item was that the March was “Peacful.” They were really expecting we were going to get out there and kill every white person we saw.
A lost opportunity, IMO.
When HRC campaign went over to the dark side, using the wingnuts and their memes is when she completely lost me and many of the former Edward supporters who were LOOKING for a candidate….
Now that HRC campaign is wrapping up with more than 30 million dollars in debt…. THAT is a big issue with me….. the other candidates knew when to stop because they were 1) not getting the votes or 2) not getting the money…. THOSE are signs that things are not going well.
HOW a candidate manages their campaign tells a lot, running up huge debt, leaving vendors across this country unpaid who are resorting to collection agencies to collect their due tells me a lot. How can anyone justify continuing a campaign completely run on debt?
AND NO legally the Obama campaign cannot bail HRC out…. the max amount that one campaign can donate to another is $2000… period.
Thanks for this, Dave. Clinton makes me sad. In fact, both of them do. I remember feeling so strongly about her, and being excited about her becoming first lady. She’s since been more of a bitter disappointment to me. She didn’t run a great campaign, like everyone is touting now. It was a terrible campaign on many levels, honestly. I’m sad that whatever happened to her happened that created the person and campaign we saw from her. I wanted her to be the one! She let me down, and not gently.
Good Morning David, Christy and Firedogs -
. . .lost in the newshuffle this week – Peter Daou sent a public, gracious congratulatory note to his counterparts in the Obama campaign – and rightly so, but was so glad to see the long arduous road hadn’t worn him down as it had others – classy as grandpa cbl would say
It isn’t over until Clinton concedes that she’s lost.
That’s what we’re waiting for.
If her campaign had been better run – and if she hadn’t been complimenting McCain while dissing Obama – she might have won. That’s what I lay on her shoulders: those decisions are her responsibility, because she had to say yes or no to those organizers, those speechwriters, those advisers.
I’d like to blame Lanny Davis and Mark Penn for a lot of the cr*p.
A couple quick points.
As for the Huffington Post, Arianna is no fan of either Clinton, and that has nothing to do with Obama.
As for Obama’s ‘weakness’, this has been relative to Hillary’s ’strength’ with her constituency. Turnout was record in all cases and this is a good thing. Officials elected with less than half the eligible electorate voting tend to be weak and (rightfully) assume that their constituents are apathetic. Without accountability, it is hard to expect an effective and honorable government. That is just human nature.
Glad you mentioned that. This is another “Mianstream” press meme being relentlessly pumped.
Yeah, there’s something to be said for that whole money-management thing too. I wonder if they were counting on some sort of senatorial hocus-pocus with the DLC to retire that if she had “won”? Interesting point, Katy.
Hillary has great tenacity. Both her and Obama have that. Neither wimped out though this campaign. That is important for dealing with what is coming from the other, dark side.
They actually have a nice pic up, with that fab Periwinkle Suit … *g*
Katymine I totally agree.
My personal preference for Obama was never enough to overwhelm my professional intent to be fair and even-handed to all the parties involved. We had very clear Clinton supporters every bit as involved in running this show as I am (ahem christy cough). I was a professional political reporter for many years and learned long ago how to ensure evenhanded coverage — mostly by putting aside as well as I could whatever biases I brought to the table. And my preference for Obama over Clinton was not that great anyway.
How many generations is it going to take to get rid of instant gratification disease?
It’s more like, ‘We wanna hear more about The One…The One!’
Not to worry, you are gonna be reading all about him.
And you won’t like what you read.
I was in absolute agreement with Dave regarding Hillary – until March. But she derailed when faced with the prospect she may have been beaten fair and square. She committed so many irredeemable errors, both of omission and commission. She failed to denounce the “guilt by association” attacks on Obama during the Rev. Wright affair, and even jumped on the “scary black pastor” bandwagon. Even more egregiously, she openly endorsed McCain’s Commander-in-Chief qualifications over Obama’s. These were acts that unmistakably signaled she was prepared to place her own ambition over the interests of her party and her country.
The endorsement of McCain’s CiC credentials over Obama’s was unforgivable. I say this more in sadness than bitterness. Rather than correcting course, Hillary then proceeded to the “hard working white people” line of attack, one of the most malignant and pernicious intraparty maneuvers in my lifetime. Now we hear from Rob Andrews that Hillary’s campaign hoped to foment tension between the African American and Jewish communities in a disgraceful attempt to salvage a campaign that was all but finished.
None of these things can erase what Hillary did for so many years. She was a valiant and reliable ally for progressive causes. But these things diminished our trust in Hillary, and took a grievous toll in terms of the respect she’d earned for the preceding 20 years. And that is how it should be. When push came to shove, to threw us under the bus.
From the very beginning, her approach has always been to be guarded, calculating, and “safe.” That’s why her health care push failed under the first Clinton administration. I never liked that, and what admiration I had for Hillary Clinton fell away completely when she voted to give Bush authority to go to war. SHE VOTED FOR THE WAR, dammit, and has had blood on her hands ever since. She has never once told us the truth about anything, especially her husband, whom I once admired and championed. Together, they represent the worst of establishment corporate politics in this country, and we are well rid of them.
At least I hope to God we’re rid of them. Their time is gone.
Juno, you made it very clear from the time you started posting that you were a Clinton supporter and that you didn’t want anyone else in the WH. You’ve complained – loudly – about everyone who didn’t agree with you, too, and complained – loudly – when people made it clear that we noticed this. Turn it down, please.
Good Heavens … they’re heading back to the 12th century by constitutionally banning Gay marriage.
If that proposal gets majority backing, can Ahnuld veto it ?
Come on over to the 21st Century, California … it’s a lot nicer ! – your friends in Canada.
Now that it’s over…
How’s your daughter?
Going for coffee…. anyone need a refill?
[fresh ground French Roast]
Obama and Clinton are both talented politicians who did what talented pols do. Neither conducted themselves in a manner that was above reproach, but they both played well within the rules of modern political warfare.
Tar heel?
Yes, please *holding cup out*
Hillary lost me with Bosnia.
In the interests of accuracy, I was actually an Edwards supporter up until the time he dropped out of the race and even after that for quite some time. I liked both Obama and Clinton for any number of reasons, all of which I’e written about here and there. But, ultimately, ended up voting for Obama in the WV primary — mainly because of his foreign policy team (on which an old professor of mine is the lead person — Tony Lake — and whose judgment I really like on diplomacy and intel matters).
But I didn’t have the strong feeling for either Clinton or Obama that I did for Edwards — and I honestly missed having his emphasis on issues in the race for the last few months precisely because it left everyone in such a surly, evenly divided nasty cesspool which we’ve all had to navigate. And that has SUCKED because any call for civility and compassion gets a “oh yeah, well screw you — I want it my way” reaction.
Can you tell that I’m glad we are nearing the end of this? *g*
just skimming comments … on my way out…
this whole thing is bizarre … i am surprised by the way FDL posters and hosts are tiptoeing around dealing with Obama winning and Clinton losing … it’s weird to have multiple threads about hillary without a single thread congratuating the person we presumably all hope will be the next president … and it’s even weirder that folks who I really respect don’t seem to get it …
i’m puzzled. but, I guess there’s a whole proccess going here that means this needs to be hillaryweek. hope y’all are getting over it. but from my pov, the hillary focus does not seem healthy and does not seem like a positive step towards unifying and moving on. rather, more like picking at the sore till it’s bleeding again…
As a side note, I have found all the Hillary/Barack praising/bashing very annoying.
They are both politicians and either is clearly superior to the alternatives.
I have found the overall level of discourse in the blogoshpere degraded.
But it brings to light that we are not a homogeneous group aping our leaders words. This site began with a number of people concerned with abuse of power in the Bush Administration. Such concern united a large number of people coming from varied directions.
Let us remember what unites us, the belief in the power of the Constitution to provide the checks and balances required to mitigate individual objectives for the common good.
The candle I hold ALL candidates to is their adherence to American core values as evidenced in the Constitution.
I largely agree with you on this but it seemed ungracious to bring it up in the post. Moreover, she can always redeem herself in the months ahead.
Don’t confuse Clinton with what you saw in the media from people like Tweety. It is easy to do.
There was a lot of suggestibility going on, as is always the case when the media have chosen who their golden child is and who the villain is.
Remember, there was all kinds of criticism of Al Gore and John Kerry after they lost (and from Democrats) about what they did wrong. It was also assumed that Bush ran a better campaign.
Anyone actually believe that?
Gore was dignified. Kerry was dignified. Clinton has been dignified.
And remember also that had she gotten the nomination, it also would have been an historic moment, only in her case it would have been for over half of the population versus ten percent, more than 50% which must now continue to wait and who watched as the flagrant sexism and misogyny were so accepted as to be considered NOT sexism and misogyny while bogus claims or race baiting and racism were met with gasps of horror.
It was a sad spectacle.
French roast? Thank you Katymine [holds cup out]
Pishaww
Hey, we’re in a budget crisis. All I’m hearing is about how much money gay and lesbian marriage would bring to our economy! Well, if that’s what it takes…
Um…did you see my whole post and the incredible discussion thread on Obama just last night? Jeebus, even when we write about Obama, the people who are hopping up and down don’t participate in the discussion…and whose fault is that?
Amen.
Nothing that Daddy’s Love can’t fix (Thank Goddess) … I promised her gobs of ice cream and hauling out the splash pad and she seems markedly better – score one for ‘positive affirmations’ – *g*
It’s called Fascism Juno, the approach Obama took…voter suppression…gaming the system…corrupting the DNC all are aspects of an attempt to build a top-down authoritarian structure. Duplicating what his hero Reagan and other fascists of the right started.
Very, very successful so far.
As to those who are all worked up about ‘too much about Clinton…’ be careful what you ask for.
The story of how and why Dean is staying on as head of the DNC with hosannas from Obama after the disgraceful committee meeting, chaired by him, which violated DNC rules against a secret vote is interesting for a lot of reasons but primarily because the much vaunted ‘blogosphere’s response was:
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((crickets)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I wonder if Looseheadprop or Jane would care to dig into that. And do note gentle readers that it’s the same tedious group here, over and over and over, attacking anyone perceived to be ‘anti-The One’.
Pathetic.
Oops! See, that’s how evenhanded we were. I don’t think Christy knew I was an Obama voter either — I’ve never been explicit about it. Mostly we have had long talks about how rotten both sides are being to each other.
Christy anyone who says FDL hasn’t been very fair is not living in reality.
No one is perfect.
Hey look what has happened to other blogs that went haywire!
Unfortunately, her “bad advice” is going to continue to cost.
No, she is a damn smart woman. She knows media, and knows, or should know, that a couple of days later, that will be the end of it.
I believe it was calculated to do exactly what it is doing.
i don’t understand why it matters in the slightest if senator clinton is a “cold, calculating bitch” or the nicest, warmest person in the world.
we’re looking for a PRESIDENT – not a person to hang out with.
didn’t we learn in 2000 and 2004 that the whole personality contest thing is 1) bogus and 2) stupid?’
it has been so sad to see us fall into the mindset of the right wing and treat such an important decision as though it was an episode of american idol (i confess to never having watched, but i have had it explained to me).
Next time please entitle the post: “Obama Iz Teh Awesome!! ELEVNTY!!!11!!”
And Obama’s campaign jumped on the ridiculous JFK and race baiting garbage.
Both campaigns did it. The only difference is, one was redeemable and one was not.
And btw, the Rev. Wright thing is not only a legitimate issue (since Obama is running on judgment and authenticity), but you can bet the GOP will be making it a liability for him, and it is one, not because of race (although for plenty it will be that, unfortunately) but because of the questions it raises about Obama’s own claims.
Indeed.
christy, no — I did not see last night’s post, was off the tubez enjoying time at home. i’m glad to hear that there was some positive discussion, that’s what i’ve been wanting. thank you.
Indeed! Anyone who gets to this level of national politics is a freak of fucking nature, and the standards of character one applies to friends, family, and coworkers are simply not relevant.
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Good points.
At all junctures the media has taken the road best suited towards weakening the perceived strongest Dem of the time.
Me, Hillary lost me at the 2003 SOTU, and never convincingly apologized for what I perceived to be political posturing at a time when real leadership was required.
Voting against the AUMF was (rightly so at the time) seen as political suicide for a Presidential hopeful, but I want more from my Senators.
The image of her and Liberman side by side enthusiastically cheering our Leader’s every lie will not leave my brain.
VEry nice post.
Indeed, I’d say that Bush HAS been a cold, calculating bitch, and he’s gotten everything he’s wanted, nearly destroyed the country, and hasn’t been held accountable for one bit of it.
Maybe that’s what it takes!
Don’t presume that I have confused anything in this.
And the divorces will help too! Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for gay marriage – equal rights for all. Hillary and her campaign – I’m not so crazy about. I’m waiting with bated breath for the final concession speech so we can move on.
um, christy, i just skimmed that post. And it appears to be mostly focused on how Obama’s race will make it hard to elect him? that’s not quite an appreciation thread. but, i don’t really want to keep harping on this. it really is time to let that sore scab over …
Classic Obamacon perspective.
‘They’ will not be happy until every word written, ever word uttered is about The One.
They will be getting their wish from Tweey, PumpkinHaid and the rest of the corporatist smear machine and they won’t like it.
It’s also a truism that they are low-info. Imagine remonstrating with a site the day after the ‘missing issue’ was discussed at length!
Typical.
I think Hillary gathered people like McAuliffe, Penn, Davis (*gagging here*) to prepare for trench warfare. She played that card after Super Tuesday but Obama beat her by refusing to (largely) play that game. That was the only arrow in her quiver and she shot it.
Hillary would not have faced the amount of criticism she did if she were a man because we “expect” them to behave that way.
Finally, as much as I feel that Hillary or Obama would be way better than any POTUS of the past 28 years, I’m really upset that my choice did not campaign for the job …
Al GoreBilly Mays … *g*erm – couldn’t bite my tongue any longer
that said, see my earlier comment
54% of dems want an Obama/Clinton ticket.
I thought I was the only one!
We’ve got a commenter who would prefer to hijack the threat with vitriolic partisan comments.
Do. Not. Feed…
hear hear! I’m looking for a president, not a drinking buddy. and it’s easy to strongly support Obama over McCain, Barr, and Nader. Hoping we can get all the help we can to get a new administration and to change the whole down ticket!
It has been my experience in observing politics most of my life that EVERY losing candidate, after the winner in the primary season goes over the top, goes off and spends up to two weeks “meeting with advisors” and “determining the options” and all the other cliches.
Senator Clinton is doing nothing at all differently here.
Make that two commenters.
I have a feeling Edwards (whom I also supported until I listened to a debate on the radio v. tv and it was clear – to me- that Clinton was by far the strongest candidate) isn’t going to disappear.
AG, anyone?
Amen Brother, er Sister, er … *g*
Let me retract my “irredeemable” comment. You’re right, she can redeem herself, but she has to start today. I’m a big believer in redemption, having taken refuge in its prospect so many times in my own personal life. I desperately want to be won over today. It won’t take all that much. I’d just like some kind of acknowledgment that things were said and done in the heat of the campaign that were regrettable. It doesn’t even have to be explicit. If she hits the right notes today, adopts the right tone, I’ll expect the Obama campaign to let bygones be bygones.
Hahaaahhhaaaaaa
Just cannot help yourself can you?
You are of course right. Right! Right! Right!
And we, who see it a different way, wrong….
Just wrong.
Hope you can see your way clear to accommodate us poor deluded reality-based folk.
‘Cause we ain’t goin’ away.
Later for this sort of mindless childishness.
I don’t envy you today or any other day until November Christy. Keep up the good work.
I’ve really warmed to idea of an AG Edwards.
i like being way down here in the 100s and not being able to read all the stuff above (except to note that some folks are still in high school playing the “your candidate sucks” game, and thinking they’re writing an addendum to “nixonland.”
so thanks dave: my sentiments, egg-zackly…
I haven’t been coming over to the Lake much the last couple of months. It just seemed like there was not much posted about the primary, and I figured that has an Obama supporter, there wasn’t much here for me the get in to. I DID come over once a day, and check to seek what other interesting things were being posted, but I didn’t linger or come back several times. And I didn’t get into the comments.
I too was in the Hillary breakout at Chicago. I too, came away feeling comforted that if she got the nomination – she could be a fine president. At that time I was an Edwards supporter, and when he dropped out, after thinking about it I switched to Obama.
I was not particularly anti Hillary at that time. Just worried about the Bush – Clinton – Bush – Clinton thing, and worried about having Bill back in the White House. Love him to death, but couldn’t stop worrying about another Bimbo erruption.
That said, when Hillary decided (or agreed to) the kitchen sink strategy, she lost me completely. Totally. She was at the top, she was in charge, and she is responsible. Now I could never be happy with her, even as VP. That is the source of my anger towards Hillary, not anything personal.
Funny how that works.
The Dems are going to need all hands on deck to win in November.
Obama & Dean’s 50- state strategy is a winner but they all have to get out and campaign like it’s 1999 !
Nothing anyone can do about it now. Obama is our candidate and Democrats should support him, defend him and call out the BS. And go after McCain. McCain’s got preachers. McCain’s got lobbyists, 100 years of occupation. McCain is a flip flopper.
gonna say something kinda simple and obvious . . .but it may have been lost on some -
most of us commenting here have been at this online thing for a while now and may be taking for granted just how inside baseball our pov is – certainly not a bad thing and oh but were more americans doing the same – just saying every little thing was under a ginormous microscope . . .and it may have contributed to the rancor and um, rather passionate discourse we’ve seen in the last few months
Transplant :^)
I went back to read it. What you said only deepens my worry over the support Hillary will be giving those people who are not comfortable with Obama. The Repubs will play that tape over and over again, McCain and Hillary the best suited CoC. Hillary’s gone, so McCain is it. End of story.
I was raised in Cicero. I know how mean spirited Ciceronians can be to outsiders, especially blacks. The 40’s were scary times to be in Cicero.
wow. ok. gotta run. see y’all later.
I wonder if Clinton will admit any mistakes today?
Got to beware the trolls who hang out on the shallow edge of the Lake, where the depth matches their comments.
I wonder where they polled that because I do not know a single Dem who wants that ticket. None….
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Oh it’s better than that. The decision to allow same-sex marriage handed down by the California State Supreme court rendered that proposition moot. If it wins (and I don’t believe it’s going to) then ALL marriages in California would be rendered null and void.
I wonder if her ’supporters’ will support BO is she asks them to … might give an insight as to whether they truly support her or their idea of what she ought to be …
You might be interested in yesterday’s Daily Howler post. Somerby does an excellent job of exposing the horrible job the Fourth Estate did in covering this nomination contest.
You are missing the point. She cannot reverse the effects of what she said about CoC capabilities. She has to do nothing to assure that her comments gives comfort and aid to the opposition.
There are many of us who think that would be a simply splendid idea.
I’m sitting tuned to MSNBC looking at the pre-concession event filling up. It is quite an impressive museum with American Flags hanging on several flat surfaces among among the romanesque columns. It is sizing up to be quite a to-do. I may eat my words in a couple of hours, but again the staging looks like something that will be largely about Hillary. Even if she says the right words about Party unity, supporting Obama, I bet it will be largely about her. I don’t dislike her. I vehemently dislike some of the things about her campaign. I think she is extremely smart. I think she has made some poor decisions choosing politics over plain good thinking. I hope today closes a chapter. I hope she does campaign with all her heart for Obama and the Democrats, but only if she stops advocating for herself. She is at her best when she is advocating for progressive policies. Russert is saying that every syllable she utters will be disected. That is true. I hope she realizes this. As an older white women that was supposed to be her base, I care about one thing, and only one thing, and that is a Democratic President and Legislature coming out of November. This is Hillary’s beiggest test. If Hillary has the wisdom to make it all about Obama and winning in November, she will help herself more than if she does anything else.
This is false.
I want a Democrat in the WH. I supported Richardson, then Edwards, then Clinton, and will now support Obama.
When you are one against many, you are deemed the troublemaker.
I merely pointed out what I thought were Obama’s flaws.
But as we’ve seen often, it is perfectly acceptable, with no calls to tone it down, to attack Clinton and her supporters, but not so much for someone to simply support Clinton.
That is unfortunate!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEHMVdncYuI
Nor do I, katy. Not at all!
LOL … they’re only foolin’ themselves, honest debate has always been welcomed here …
love the fact The Horserace® ends on the day of the horserace :D
OT I used to watch Wide World of Sports every weekend growing up.
NYT’s
I think others who have been on FDL since before the primaries would verify that, at the beginning of the race, the majority (perhaps 60%) of commentors seemed to favor Edwards, with much smaller percentages for Kucinich, Dodd, Clinton, and Obama. Only when the field narrowed to two, did the large majority of commentors tend to favor Obama, either strongly or reluctantly. Quite a number had no favorite, but wanted to maintain sufficient unity to beat the Republicans.
I know you don’t feet this way, but when you first began to comment on FDL, you seemed to carry over your feelings from Huffington, which we had nothing to do with, and which the Obama campaign had nothing to do with. I initially tried to explain why I thought Hillary had come to put herself above the good of the party, and you told me I was dishonest and using Republican spin tactics. No one on FDL had previously responded to my comments by calling me dishonest. I would welcome your support for the Democratic Party, but that is in no way a mea culpa.
I support HRC for VP. I think she’s far and away the best choice. If it’s not HRC, it has to be imo a woman who is 100% European American.
Please, however, do not gloss over her “hard working white voters.” A lot of people took very strong exception to that. People who often like to be referred to as “white,” routinely do not include “semitic” voters in that category.
A lot of people do not realize that when you raise questions about someone’s “electability” based primarily on their ethnicity, it really pisses off a lot of other people. A lot of people read into that questions, an attitude of “white supremacy.” I am very confident that a lot of people asking about “electability,” did not intend that, but “meaning” is a two-way street. The recipient gets a vote.
Pelosi ‘07!
Saw that on one of the threads yesterday. Damn good claymation.
The metal voice, “little pig little pig let me in” cracks me up.
I actually asked one of these people if s/he wanted to discuss the issues, point blank. The response I got was “Nope.” Nuff said. Not gonna waste my time with bs.
Lol. It was a broad (filbert bristle to you) brush description.
54% of dems want an Obama/Clinton ticket.
I thought I was the only one!
You mean my minority position has become the majority position?
crap – takes some of the fun out of it….
All I have to say is that we have to keep eyes wide open and hold whoever is in power accountable for whatever happens…Dems or Repubs…and most of all, the media.
And SouthernDragon @ 96:
This is what I mean, David.
There are two posters here who supported Clinton. These are to whom SouthernDragon is referring.
Being told to just no communicate with us (in crude terms: DO NOT FEED, a la a sign at a zoo).
How is this helpful, inspired, or unifying?
Jeebus. He won, she lost. Can we get on to the next phase, pretty please?
The Rev. Wright thing was completely bogus. Wright’s views were so plainly at variance with Obama’s that it was unfair to impute them to Obama, or to question Obama’s stated beliefs on that basis.
I confronted a similar issue in my own church (I’m not a religious person, but I attended services for many years while the kids were young). My pastor couldn’t seem to denounce the Iraq disgrace. I became increasingly agitated at the rationalizations, the hedging, the inability to call this war what it is – a crime. But my pastor’s views were not reflective of the church’s views as a whole (the national church had forthrightly denounced this war from the beginning), and so I stayed. I considered leaving the congregation, but I didn’t. It would be have extraordinarily unfair to impute to me the views of my pastor. It would have been extraordinarily unfair to suggest that that my pastor’s equivocation on Iraq brought into question my opposition to this war.
The media. What are we gonna do about this corporate media? Michael Copps from FCC was on Democracy Now! yesterday and discussed our current sorry ass media.
I can’t believe that poll, I live in new york and I can’t find a single person who wants to see that ticket
I know you want to see it loohoo and if they get elected they’ll surely make a potent team but I believe that ticket would give mccain a legitimate shot at winning, I see him with no shot if obama picks anyone but clinton
obama hillary will galvanize the most republican voters against a democratic president
Billy Mays ‘08
FDL has been where it mattered for African Americans. It has covered Jena and it has been all over universal health care. In addition Jane has a lot of people posting on the front page and in the book salons, who are not 100% European American.
Neither Hillary nor Barack are liberal candidates. The mantra of this blog has always been “we will support the Democratic nominee for President.”
Although I think Obama’s nomination is a net win for Americans who are not 100% European American, it’s not necessarily an immediate plus for a lot of Americans who had ancestors who were slaves. A very high percentage of them have been forced to live in conditions trending in the direction (but without nearly the same level of lethality) of the Warsaw ghetto. A lot of refined white supremacists will use Obama’s success to bludgeon these people, “he did it, why can’t you.”
lol! I like filbert brushes, literally!
You cannot be serious.
It has been 4 days since he won, a virtual lifetime in the blogosphere.
And we’re not talking about spitting the atom here, just a post.
I was worried about you. Quite a storm, huh?
Rachel’s up!
“sigh…”
Brain Bleach ‘08!
I do not want her for VP, and she’ll never be offered it anyway. Obama would be nuts to offer it to her.
And the hard working, white American thing was ridiculous.
For years Democrats have been saying they have to win back that white, working class voter. She goes out and does it and is called racist.
That was an example of Obama supporters behaving as they claim they do not like. Deliberately inflicting a bogus but nasty meaning on something that simply did not have that intent.
By calling a sector of white voters “hard working” is in no way saying any other group does not also work hard. It was ridiculous on its face. Clinton couldn’t sneeze w/o people being offended. Such was the self-righteousness stirred up by the Obama movement.
Why don’t you show us how to be useful, inspired and unifying by your own example ?
From your comments, it would seem that you have a lot to teach us.
The Media Reform conference is on right now live on http://WWW.freespeechtv.org. and is live on FSTV.
Jane was conducting a few polls here a while back. I’d like to see an FDL poll on Veeps for Obama. My choice is Webb. I don’t even like the guy – he’s too hawkish for my taste. But I didn’t like Obama or Hillary either. I liked Kucinich/Edwards. I think Webb has the Mil. bonafides, Republican, white protestant bonafides that comfort low-info voters.
that is not the problem Obama faces with the Wright thing. It is not a bogus issue, but more importantly, it is one that, rightly or wrongly, will be used against Obama, and I think it’s very dangerous for him.
LOL
Juno, do you ever stop by the Blue America candidate chats?
Wow … that’s the first time Buchanan has been a “minority” on MSNBC …
I think HRC has put herself in a position to really help sway Democrats, who have reservations about Obama’s ethnicity. No one in the Democratic party imo can better inoculate Obama than HRC as VP, particularly, because of her comment about “hard working white voters.” Accepting the VP provides an imprimatur to Democrats who have concerns about Obama. AFAIK, it’s a lot like the message JFK sent to conservative Democrats when he selected LBJ.
Close as you can get except for luck of birth. *g*
Dual residence here: SE and SW corners. You? Always delighted to find someone at the Lake from this neck of the woods.
Hillary would rock as a supreme court justice. She’d rock at several other roles as well, but I would personally enjoy seeing her in an unassailable, permanent position of power from which the Right would be helpless to dislodge her.
And he could help out with the Appalachian vote. Plus, he’s not a crook and loves America. The fact that he used to be a republican wouldn’t hurt either. Whatever it takes to win in November.
Up here in transplanted Yankee land now. Went to college west of here a bit… moved back a few years ago, now split time btwn here and OH.
We ended the race as we started it, with two candidates Democrats had a tough time choosing between because they were both good. And the Republicans ended with a passel of candidates they had a tough time choosing between because they didn’t much like any of them, and did their usual pattern of choosing an old fossil because “it’s his turn.”
I got seriously involved in politics through the Dean campaign. Nobody secretly funded a primary ad linking my candidate with Osama bin Laden this time, so I don’t count this as a particularly vicious primary. When you’re passionate about a candidate, everything from the other side seems outrageous and more awful than most primaries, but really, it’s not. And while negative tactics are often decried as giving ammunition to the enemy for the general, I’ve never seen an effective attack ad featuring a primary opponent.
Breathe. All this stuff is in the past now, and we’ve got an election to win.
This argument – that the certainty that republicans would resort to a tactic justifies the use of that tactic by democrats – has always struck me as incredibly wrongheaded. Would you have defended an attempt by a democrat to swift boat John Kerry in light of the certainty that Rove et al would do so?
My choice is Webb. I don’t even like the guy – he’s too hawkish for my taste.
well, HRC is my first choice for V.P., if for no other reason than that I don’t want any “surprises” on November 4. (birthday is Nov. 5, and I *already* hate that day – heh).
Second choice would be Ted Strickland, Governor of Ohio. Ohio is, as always, critical. I’m wondering whether he might not be of help in PA as well.
Hear Hear!
Please, if you are going to criticize a position I offer, take a moment to base your criticism in fact, not some drive by snarky comment that offers nothing to the discourse.
To categorize my support of Sen. Obama as “The One”, as if he is some holy figure, is ridiculous and uncalled for.
Meaning is a two-way street.
How do you define “white?”
Is Jessica Alba really “white?” What about Derek Jeter? What about ARod. Are you going to let Joe Torre in the club? What the Irish? Are you ok with them as “white?”
What about that Alan Dershowitz? Do you consider him “white?”
Thanks for this. I have to go plant impatiens, but I’ll read it later.
The press needs to do some real soul searching (and take a few refresher courses on the role of the Fourth Estate in a democracy).
Well said.
Democrats didn’t have to win back the African American vote.
It was a ridiculous, inflammatory response.
Hillary’s management of her campaign, which was revealed by her hire of the amoral Mark Penn and the odious surrogates Lanny Davis and Harold Ickes have shown her lacking, in comparison to Obama.
Her campaign showed a lack of good judgement by the candidate and that is why she lost.
For a center/right Dem senator she has done some good things in the senate, but as to why she would be consudered an appropriate Dem standard bearer is beyond me. Could Clinton supporters fill me in?
Obama is going to need a Southern White Male as Veep … I don’t think the majority of America can stomach a ticket with two atypical people (Obama/Hillary)
I love how Edwards gets the masses roaring and would love to see him as Veep.
Hey, good morning all.
My first disappointment this am was that I totally missed Pull Up A Chair. Slept in. And, then I read every single comment here, so it took a while to get to the bottom.
Well, well, well.
There are so many commenters here that I have a real fondness for– and I think you know who you are. And, some commenters who make me a little uncomfortable. But, not enough to get my blood pressure up about.
I just love FDL. I think it strives to be fair and attracts a lot of intelligent people.
That is how many believe he and his supporters have presented him, STTP.
I missed the zed on PW’s caturday post
Jessica Alba, don’t call me Latina
Are those “hard working white voters,” going to allow Jessica into the club?
What if Spike Lee proclaims that he too is white?
(((((
debbiedemi ))))) … *g*Maybe you and Jonah Goldberg can collaborate on his next book?
Mark Penn did not know that the CA primary was proportional? He thought it was winner-take-all? And, by the time he learned the truth his CA strategy was in the commode.
LOL!
I heard that yesterday on the TeeVee
Apples and oranges. Swifties were lying about historical facts.
This is not the same thing.
And considering the fact that the Swift Boat thing stuck and the WRight thing – for Democrats – did not, I don’t think you have much of a case.
Republicans will use it much more effectively, I fear.
Now that the primary is “over”, I will say that I am not a fan of Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton for starters. We need to clean house.
I was disappointed that Clinton listened to Penn’s misguided campaign strategies. I was disappointed when she made the remarks about having to put up with the “left wing of the party”. I was disappointed when she made the stupid Bosnia remarks…when she spoke of “hard-working white voters” as if others are not hard working…I was stunned when she invoked the RFK/June remarks.
I will also say that I really didn’t like the way the closed door, backroom delegate distribution took place. I didn’t like that Clinton didn’t follow her own pledge regarding Michigan and Florida…but I really blame the Republicans in Florida for screwing with the Dems. Ugh. I really hated the way this whole process was handled.
I will say that I totally admire the fortitude and tenacity with which HRC waged her campaign, and I congratulate her for that sincerely.
We’ve got Obama now, and we will have to go forward. I hope he runs a heck of a campaign and wins in November and is in the WH in January 09. That is where we are. I wish us all luck.
Well, you WANT to make it a racist thing, so you’re just going to.
Now, complain about how Clinton made the bogus Wright thing an issue.
Sigh.
double *g* — see ya upstairs.
Leave Mark Penn alone … he had enough trouble with Hair Dye … *g*
I understand staying in a church when you have children, because you want that experience for your children. They flourish in the simplicity of growing faith and fellowship. As half of an older couple whose kids are all married, we have left two churches since ‘03 for the very reason that bothered you. The first pastor thought supporting the flag was more important than following Christ. The second pastor felt trapped. He shared our views but feared the fallout from his congregation. Both national bodies of these churches had repudiated the War, yet the pastors went their own way and missed an opportunity to teach Christ’s message and critical Christian thinking. It is very frustrating to be among so many sheep.
I think the Wright bru-ha-ha was overblown. Remember, they found two sermons to exploit over years of preaching. I was peeved over his Press Club performance and I think he should be admonished for that because he had to know how it would hurt Obama, and that was certainly ego driven and not very Christian coming from a pastor. But, all in all, it has made Obama a stronger candidate.
I read recently, that the fastest growing religious group in the U.S. is “unafilliated.” People meeting is private homes and coffee shops because they are disenchanted with organized religion. I can certainly understand that trend.
Could you be a tad more specific, ’cause quite frankly, I don’t see it. [and no, I’m not a Hillary supporter, angry or otherwise]
i’ve seen that written all over the place. do you know if it is really true?
it’s going to be Sibelius . . .yeah, I know, the whole national security big swingin’ dick stuff . . .but keep hearing both Obama and Axelrod telegraphing how they’re gonna beat that back
she’s a woman, it’s a nod to the DLC, and she comes with a mantle of all that centrist goodness
ok, come get me :D
If republicans do in fact use it much more effectively, can we agree that it will be due in no small part to the fact that a democrat – Hillary – endorsed and adopted the tactic? The McCain camapaign is already footage in its ads of Hillary’s endorsement of McCain’s CiC qualifications over Obama’s. If they reprise the Rev. Wright attack and justify it in part by citing Hillary’s statements on the issue, will you agree that Hillary knowingly abetted McCain’s campaign?
Juno, I’m not unsympathetic. What was “ridiculous and inflammatory” was your insinuation that there are “white” voters out there. Are you talking about albino’s?
You don’t want to admit that your attitudes are fundamentally consistent with “white supremacy.”
Jump in a vehicle with four of your closest friends who had ancestors who were slaves. Drive around in their neighborhood for awhile and then drive to your house/apartment. Let me know how many times the cops stop you.
I certainly would have, but unfortunately wasn’t around.
Still had a ‘yeah he won, but…’ quality to it IMVHO.
“Election 2008: Comfort Levels, Race, And Obama”
Why not suspend for one post all the things to worry about and give him his due.
For one stinkin’ post.
I just saw it reported on the MSM yesterday in a piece about HRC’s flawed lock-it-up-by-Super-Tuesday strategy.
I’m not the one who defended a comment like “hard working ‘white’ voters.”
Not only does it threaten semitic voters, it sounds like non-”whites” don’t work hard.
I wish your country was open to two unconventional people on the same ticket but I think one of them has to be a white male.
In response to Juno @ 70, Well said, all these supposedly sophisticated thirty something college educated Obama bots, ( as compared to the “working class americans” ) really knew what was going down. They have been complaining for years about the right wing media, as well they should, and then turn around and swallow the Koolade being served about both candidates. Now the Obama bots are just like the SCOTUS, if you dont like it, get over it. Before you Obama bots get your nickers in a bunch, I never was going to vote for Hillary or Obama, so I am not a disgruntled Clintonite. Oh, and by the way, I too am college educated and spent 40 years in the corporate world and pretty well know the corporate mentality. I will be very surprised if Obi One wins the general election, the media picked the one they want to run against.
Good Morning Selise -
Penn “reportedly” didn’t know
TPM
A lot of people who have ancestors who were slaves don’t vote.
FDL has made it quite clear that they will address Obama’s “win”…after HRC concedes….it is not over until she is out. First things first. At least that has been my impression. So…relax :P…ducking…
Linky.
what would I know, I’m just a slavishly devoted Obamabot, oh and media tool *g*
I would love to see Edwards, too (he’s said he doesn’t want it, but everyone says that until they’re asked.) But I don’t think there are any real restrictions on who he can ask; despite the hype, VP just doesn’t have significant influence on the election, and hasn’t since the decline of machine politics.
Obama’s only real comment on the VP choice was that he would choose someone who shared his vision for the country, not someone who provided some advantage in electoral strategy (though if they can do both, that’d be great.) We’re not going to win or lose this thing based on the VP choice, but if we’re successful, the VP has a good shot at being the next president, so the VP will make a lot more difference in the time after the election than in the short time before.
Which again would be a great reason to choose Edwards or Gore, imho ;-) But I don’t think it’s likely.
Don’t say “Gore” … gives me too much false hope …
gak! just saw your comment. I dreamt that about a week ago
*ouch* … the VP has a good shot at being the next President … unintended pun ? *g*
[Mod Note; unintended or not, lets not go there, even in jest. Thanks.]
The media has “chosen” McCain.
That is the problem.
I actually agree with you, though I’m intrigued by a recent theory I read about how he could pick Mark Warner and not lose the VA senate race. But even more than that, I expect to be surprised.
It is comments like this that take an otherwise civil discussion off the rails.
And I find it offensive as a supporter of Sen. Obama that my support is likened to that of a teen aged band groupie. “Teh Awesome”?
If the historical significance of what he has done is either lost on you, or you don’t care to comment on it, that’s fine.
But those of us who do shouldn’t be subject to your ridicule.
Considering the fact that my father spent a week in prison for marching for civil rights in the south, after meeting with MLK, Jr., with a group of college students he was mentoring (he’s a minister) to get advice on non-violent protest, and he and family have a lifetime of not only backing but clearly fighting – at personal risk – for civil rights, you’re right, I not only don’t see it, I’m offended by your accusation.
Saying “white” does NOT make a person racist. How interesting that we can talk about “the Jewish vote” or “the Latino vote” or the “African American vote” and even say that Obama has to now set about winning over the white, workingclass vote, but Hillary Clinton says it, and it’s RACIST!
Absolutely ridiculous. The Clintons are NOT racist. There ARE voting blocs. Democrats for YEARS have been saying they have to win back the white, blue collar vote, namely in the south.
I guess you therefore agree with Republicans that the Democratic party is racist.
When Obama’s campaign says he has to win back the women that backed Clinton and who are angry now, I guess that means the Obama campaign is sexist, huh?
Good.
Grief.
if he keeps up the sonambulent polident commercials he calls ‘events’ there’s gonna be an epidemic of buyer’s remorse – pass the bbq sauce :D
wonder if the “recent theory” was tied to the Fact neither Warner or Tom Davis will endorse the Gooper Senate candidate – bwaaahaaahaaa!
Oh, but of course. But for HIllary, Republicans NEVER would have used the Wright video.
Cripes.
You mean like how Teddy Kennedy treated Carter in ‘80?
I wish to announce my undivided support for Billy Mays for Veep … he will clean up America
NOOOOOOOOOOO! The voice – blegh
I see all these posts on the reasons that Hillary lost being quoted from the Media, Yeah, like you can really believe them. Follow the money, they all have their own agenda.
Yeah, but he is Southern White Male … rich too … *g*
Could not disagree with you more.
His candidacy is already an “immediate plus” for all Americans, not just those “who had ancestors who were slaves”, because it speaks to the concept that anyone can hold the highest office in the land, not just the well connected and those born to wealth and power.
When and where?
What college?
The minute you start talking about “white” people, others have an obligation to ask what in the heck you mean. Do you mean “albino?”
Glad we agree on something.
It’s a niche within racism called “white” supremacy.
I’m happy to help broaden your cultural horizons. I know you don’t intend your comments to be mistaken for “white supremacy.” Unfortunately, meaning is a two-way street. Other people get a vote about what your “words” mean.
I don’t talk about the “Jewish” vote and given how glibly you talk about “white” I suggest you don’t go there.
Some self-identifying Latino’s prefer the term Hispanic. Some self-identifying “African Americans” prefer the term “black.”
How do you like being called 100% European American?
What do you lose by saying it this way?
White supremacy was legal until the 1960’s. A lot of white supremacist attitudes still linger in both parties.
HRC identified a huge ethnic and demographic in the Democratic party that feels left. Making her the VP would go a long way towards reaching out to that block. If it can’t be HRC, it’s gotta be a woman who is 100% European American.
If you want to throw around the term “white” you will receive these kinds of responses.
“President Barack Obama” has created a lot of excitement worldwide !
And I am waiting for our country to rejoice. I feel 7 feet tall because of what my country has done. So proud and Obama will be a great president.
When Gore comes to Toronto, he is treated like a Rock Star.
I think the same thing is going to happen when President Obama tours other countries …
I would invite you to try and find a safe way to spend some time with teenagers in a school who takes a majority of its students from people who had ancestors who were slaves. Obama’s ability to speak in a European American dialect is frequently frowned upon by people who had ancestors who were slaves. There is more stratification within those Americans who had ancestors who were slaves, than is commonly assumed.
For those who have made the very difficult investment in trying to learn the European American culture, Obama is a significant help right now and in the future. I agree that long term Obama’s nomination is also a help to all Americans who are not 100% European American. I have concerns in the short term about the ability of some to learn how to assimilate themselves in European American culture.
I really hope I am wrong.
I also think we can be color-blind in providing assistance for the poor in this country. If we just use income as a guide, intelligent support (not welfare) and wise investment (universal health care…) will get to those who most need it.
Hear, hear!
The above is what makes me a fan as well.
Even though I’ve taken a position recently most here don’t agree with, I find the discussion stimulating and the quality of comments far, far above those that can be found elsewhere.
Now, back to my ongoing fight for a ‘Congrats Sen. Obama’ post.
I’m fully aware of that, but I’m not one of them and refuse to be categorized as such.
A cuppa, tree things…(this expression courtesy of Phil of “The Soporanos”)
Why does Sen. Obama’s “win” have to be in quotation marks?
Why must I “relax”? I didn’t know I wasn’t relaxed. I like to think I’m expressing my POV thoughfully, coherently, and without insulting anyone.
And lastly there is certainly no need to “duck” when disagreeing with me; I’m Mr. Go Along To Get Along.
And you should know, given that you’re part of that demographic!
And I regularly meet furreners around the world too …
Way, way ahead of you.
I have a good friend who is a principal of a school with such a demographic, and he holds up Sen. Obama’s candidacy as an example of what these children can become.
I visit his school often, on career days, or to have lunch.
The pride these children have in this historic occasion is something to see, and hopefully will make a positive difference in some of their lives.
That is terrific.
I did participate and (with no disrespect) it was about how he hasn’t connected with enough voters yet. I think what people were hoping for just a simple acknowledgment of his victory and some thoughts on what that says about the progess of the country.
Thank you David.
My goodness. I thot this was a tribute thread.
I don’t remember ordering Vente.
*returns to trudge thru comments*
no, i just can’t right now.
out to pull more garlic mustard weedlings…
Have a vent-ive, reflective, restorative day pups.
productive can wait, but not for long.
please save some of that energy; junior & deadeye continue to trash the playground, without apparent pause.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..05693.html
I am, and have been, an Obama supporter.
I was, and remain, confused about why on earth you seem to want to bash people over the head with this.
The staff here is small. The budget ditto. The community HUGE and exceedingly active on many fronts, virtually all positive.
Obama has abundant and growing support here.
Let’s you and me hold hands and wait for that big !CONGRATULATIONS! blast together, eh? No? Well. I’ll save a seat for you anyway.
Of course it’s coming. As well as more much-needed healing and planning.
You want Superman or Wonderwoman? Not here fella. Just a truly gifted, even-handed, highly trained and dedicated bunch trying to H. E. L. P.
The task is monumental, because dumbya’s gang has created a mell of a hess as far as the eye can see, and shows no sign of slowing his attempts to make things even worse for generations to come.
please. calm. down. and at least show a modicum of respect for the great efforts of those who manage, mend and visit the Lake.
alternative: yell at ME instead, while i go yank weeds outta the garden. I’ll listen, but frankly you’ll be playing 2nd fiddle to a glorious Wood Thrush songster tuning up next to the garden, as we speak.
P. E. A. C. E.
What in the world are you going on about?
I thought this was a blog, you know, where people exchange ideas?
I don’t “bash” anyone with anything.
I express a point of view and try to support it with facts. If you don’t agree, just skip over it.
Now, you’re not really serious about that point, are you?
Because that doesn’t even make sense. What I’ve asked about has a negligable impact on either.
Now let’s see. Please point me to any instance of me not being “calm”. You will never find an insult or petty comment from me directed to any person here.
As to the “modicum of respect” you seek, the comment you reference shows lots of it directed at FDL.
And lastly, I never “yell” at anyone, online or off. As off base as I find your comment, that would still include you as well.
I’m sorry; I forgot to address this specific part.
Let me try to unconfuse you about why I
seem to want to bash people over the head with thisfind this so important.It is historic.
It has never happened before in over 200 years.
A black man with no money, or family name, beat Sen. Clinton, Pres. Clinton, the Democratic political establishment & their big donors.
He also happened to be the more progressive of the two remaining candidates, and voted against the war.
I think all of that deserves one post, that’s all.
i truly, sincerely believe you’ll get it, sooner or later.
btw, we have an Obama sign out at our driveway entrance, and have had for quite awhile.
you?
I think we’re firmly into ‘agree to disagree’ land.
And that’s ok by me.