Given our long standing bipartisan policy of supporting Israel and providing assurances (and sophisticated arms) for Israel's security, there was nothing surprising when leaders of both parties trooped before AIPAC to say the things that US politicians usually say on those points. But this year's speeches by McCain, Clinton and Obama were more troubling than usual.
We've come to expect speeches to AIPAC to be less than balanced towards the Palestinians, but it was not helpful to have the candidates say all the things Israel expects to hear (and saying more than they can defend -- h/t Yglesias), while neglecting most of the things the Palestinians also need to hear. It's bad enough that American politicians have a disappointing habit of identifying the most militant resistance among Palestinians as "terrorism" while having a different frame when describing the most militant resistance/reactions by Israelis. While we rightly condemn Palestinians for launching rockets onto Israeli towns, I don't know why it's necessary to ignore that Palestinians see themselves as living under a demeaning occupation on the West Bank and a crushing siege in Gaza. It's not as though what happened here isn't universally understood as a mutual tragedy:
Mortar shells fired from Gaza killed a 52-year-old Israeli worker on Thursday, and two hours later, an Israeli missile aimed at the source apparently killed a 4-year-old girl playing in her yard.
It was even more "unhelpful" to have our politicians repeating the same kinds of characterizations of, and threats to, Iran that we've heard for the past seven years from the Bush Administration. To be sure, Obama's speech continued his usual emphasis on determined diplomacy, but he added this:
We will also use all elements of American power to pressure Iran. I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon, everything.
On this main point, if there is some nuance, some significant substantive difference between the posturing of Obama and Clinton, on the one hand, and Bush/McCain on the other, I didn't see it.
Even more troubling, if the Bush Administration is planning to attack Iran, claiming it's necessary to carry out their promise not to allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons, it doesn't appear the Democrats said anything to AIPAC that could be interpreted as demanding the Administration stop. If everyone says, "we won't allow Iran to do this," while adding "we won't rule out military force to make sure they don't," then there's no reason to expect George Bush and Dick Cheney to interpret these statements as anything other than a green light to do as they please. The only thing to decide is the timing.
When/if this Administration attacks Iran, it simply won't be credible for Democrats to say, "gee, we thought Bush should have pursued diplomacy more than he did." Clinton said that about Iraq, and that's probably why she lost the nomination. The usual rationale, that by providing a united political front against Iran, we strengthen the Administration's diplomatic hand, thus encouraging more compliant behavior from Iran, might make sense with any Administration other than the Bush/Cheney regime, whose judgment cannot be trusted. We heard that reasoning before too, on the Lieberman/Kyl resolution regarding Iran, and Obama rejected that argument then. The point then, as now, is not whether we trust Obama to act wisely once he is President, but whether we trust Bush/Cheney to act wisely in the next six months, given what others say today.
Last week Scott McClellan confessed that the Bush Administration trumped up a propaganda case to go to war with Iraq. This week the Senate Intelligence Committee released a report confirming those misrepresentations in spades. The "truth about the war" is the Administration duped Congress and the public and were probably duped themselves by those more than wiling to exploit the Administration's ideological fantasies. And last month, the New York Times revealed the Pentagon conducted a systematic campaign to use retired military officers to propagandize the media about the Iraq war's justification and progress.
Given this history, Democratic leaders have no excuse not to challenge the Administration's belligerent statements, its dangerous world view and its propensity for unilateral military actions -- and to do so before Bush/Cheney lead us into yet another military blunder. The AIPAC conference was an opportunity to challenge Bush's Iran fantasies and the insane march to war, but everyone ducked, including our new Democratic nominee.
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“Friend” to Israel could mean different things. Obama has been pretty firm in his stance that Israel needs to start with the diplomatic talks. I think he’s going to be the GOOD FRIEND, whereas, Joe Lieberman, Johnny McTeleprompter and other right wingers will cave and continue the killing, because it’s just easier. Yep…dropping bombs is easy…making friends is not. See? ;-)
Iran/Israel are three topics (each separately & both together) that make my blood boil & make it difficult for me to remain civil. The fact that O & C (and many other Ds) are enabling W is infuriating.
Good morning, Scarecrow. Fine post.
More evidence that Democrats and Republicans are of the same cloth when it comes to AIPAC. Very sad. A foreign power has taken control of U.S. foreign policy and it’s not easy to imagine what can be done about it.
I’m with eCAHNomics on this. I think I’ll sit this discussion out.
We will also use all elements of American power to pressure Iran. I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon,
Everything how about a peace treaty with Iran? Promise them green energy? What about Saudi Arabia getting Nuclear Reactors are the Democrats unaware the Bin Laden Family is a big construction firm the kind that will get a piece of any government contract?
I support Obama he has won but now he’s responsible for the Democrats.
Besides any attack on Iran will spike the price of oil higher.
What do you want to bet that if we attack connected speculators will have already bought oil? What do you want to bet nothing will be done about it?
You mean a GOOD FRIEND like the Jimmy Carter sort of good friend to Israel? I certainly hope so.
And I’m on the other side so maybe it’s best to go back to the chigger thread.
Yep, in this case, chiggers and blueberries are definitely safer.
Would it be untoward to suggest that the US should just annex Jerusalem and turn it into a Disneyesque Jesusland? Our Cirstian nation could make a killing on tourism with the value added benifit of keep Jews and Arabs from killing one another.
Scarecrow reader of Congressional tea leaves are the Democrats really clearing the way for Bush to attack Iran?
These conversations lead nowhere, just like the middle east it becomes “oh yea, well. . . they did THIS”.
well, I normally don’t do EPU’s, but it may actually be relevant here, so:
jayt June 6th, 2008 at 5:06 am
94
Anybody catch Zbigniew Brzezinski on JoeScar? Damn, that’s a smart man. He was explaining that the president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, is pretty much a third-rate player in the peculiar Iranian political scheme. Has no control of any of the major ministries, like defense, security, etc. The mullahs actually run the place - and the general population is pretty pro-west.
He also said that to worry about Iran having a nuke is ridiculous, because Israel has 150-200 of their own, and Iran is much too sophisticated to commit national suicide by *ever* using a nuke.
Hey Obama staffers - get the tape to Barack - this guy still has a lot to offer. I’ve seen him on JoeScar before, and he makes more sense in his allotted five minutes than the rest of the crew do, accumulated, in a month.
Morning Scarecrow, it was all blueberries earlier!
Amen.
I, too, was sorely disappointed with Obama.
Also, I am offended by the American Stars and Stripes AIPAC logo. I know the six pointed star is a symbol for Jews worldwide; but it is the very symbol of Israel, and that is my objection to it being draped in our flag.
My GOOD FRIENDS are honest with me no matter how much the truth hurts. ;-) A path towards peace is what a GOOD FRIEND would be suggesting, rather than a path towards the opposite.
Okay, going to work. ;-)
We’ve come to expect speeches to AIPAC to be less than balanced towards the Palestinians,…
Ziggy also said that the AIPAC Conference speeches are a ritual, that rituals over time become meaningless, and to not take the candidates’ speeches too seriously - they’re just doin’ what they gotta do…
I find the whole AIPAC tail wagging the US dog to be frightful. When I heard about Obama sucking up to them I was sorely disappointed.
And yes, how on earth can the dems look at themselves in the mirror if McCheneybush bombs Iran before the election?
Was it Hegel or Grassley that said that act would merit impeachment? How come it came from a thug?
Didn’t AIPAC used to trigger a filter here?
disagree!
it’s enabling, and it’s dangerous to humor them.
I am offended by neocons anywhere in the world…they are an offense against the human population.
Biden also said that if he attacked Iran. Holy moly why wait till the bastard does more damage. We must stop him before he does one more darn thing to make a bollicks of the world. What does it take to get fancynancy off her duff and into the real world?
Good morning, everyone. I’ve added the following sentence after the mention of Lieberman/Kyl to clarify what I’m saying:
The point then, as now, is not whether we trust Obama to act wisely once he is President, but whether we trust Bush/Cheney to act wisely in the next six months, given what others say today.
So I’m not suggesting Obama/Clinton are the same nutsos as Bush/Cheney, but rather that we have to be careful what we say now that would enable Bush/Cheney while they’re still in office.
I heard Obama’s speech, and he went out of his way to explain that the peace process is paramount to him, and that he won’t “wait until the waning days of my presidency” to address and implement it.
The Iran saber-rattling is certainly disquieting though - I agree. I just didn’t believe him, is all. I most certainly don’t see Obama going off half-cocked and attacking anything or anybody, except as truly the last resort.
As far as “humoring” them (AIPAC) - yeah, I wish everyone would just cut that shit out. It wouldn’t be all that hard really, to make the case that Israel is a terrorist state…
If Bushco were out of the equation, this would not even be so bad. Preventing them from a weapon is not the same as preventing them from their legal right to nuclear fuel… …but of course, we will in Bushland, where energy is the same as a bomb…
…plus the fact that our glorious war with Iran will have already started before Obama is innaugerated…
Amen
the words “trust” and “Bush/Cheney” can’t belong in the same sentence unless we say outright that we don’t.
And yes, what you are pointing to is important. Any hint from our guys that it would be OK for the crooks in the WH to bomb Iran has to be stopped. Now.
That’s something I would believe of Lieberman, but not others. But who knows?
obviously we can’t trust them. NOT.EVER.
So I wonder if Obama has an appointment to talk with the JStreet group. I’m holding out hope that there will be someone speaking out on Israel’s behalf that isn’t rabidly neocon AND that someone will listen to them.
I’m not disagreeing about what a President Obama would do, and you are right about what Obama said else where in his speech.
The link in the sentence just before the Obama quote is to the full text, as published in WaPo.
I just can’t believe that the Bush Administrations anti-Iran statements are more than futile bluster. It has been widely noted that any Iranian nuclear technology is widely spread and dug-in, and couldn’t be eliminated by “surgical” air strikes. It is also obvious to anyone that we don’t have the ground forces to sustain any additional land war. I can’t believe Petreus would advise subjecting our 150,000 tied down troops to a “surge” of about 500,000 Iranian troops. That leaves only nuclear weapons, and the Israelis can defend themselves on that score.
I wouldn’t read too much into their AIPAC speeches. It is an election year, you know.
Amen.
But I’m not going to say that here.
I love Firedoglake, but I’ve been deleted previously on this site for similar expressions.
So I’ll just shut up. Forget what I said about Amen and stuff.
I was really impressed with his speech as well. Especially considering:
1. It came right after his historic speech accepting the democratic nomination
2. The historical black/Jew difficulties
3. The warm reception he got…the audience was way enthusiastic
4. The fact that he was honest about working for peace
5. Lots of really rich people in the room (!!)
6. He succeeded in letting them know that if Iran were a threat to Israel, his administration would use force if necessary
I really think their logo is HOT! (Sorry, Elliot!)
Sad Pandering.
One needs to be reminded that AIPAC represents the rabid, starboard fringe of American/Israeli relations.
I thought it was a disgusting display of pandering and I was really disappointed. As was every Arab I’ve heard from or read.
As was every Arab I’ve heard from or read.
Now that’s a big shocker.
yep
.
(’sOK Loo Hoo, it is attractive, I don’t like the implications of it is all.)
Think I’ll join you folks on the previous thread. Might keep me from gettin’ banned from the Lake. Chiggers I can do. IDF and Likud, not so much.
I remember thinking the same thing about Iraq.
Sometimes, because we think rational adults are making these decisions, we overlook what could be rather simple motives.
The more bombs you use, the more you have to replace.
And, they’re not cheap.
I don’t have time to read the piece or search up the links with cuts and pastes but all over think progress yesterday it was reported that “if a democrat wins the office the president WILL attack Iran”
this needs to be PLASTERED all over the fourth estate, it SEEMS they MIGHT have regained their mantle and we MUST GET ON THIS IMMEDIATELY
got to go to work, see all later
Obama’s influence on matters Congressional looks to be very interesting for the next couple of months before the critters go on summer recess. There is no question that his conversation with liarman was very much an “we are in charge now” talk. I do wonder if he is going to sit down with fancynancy and reid to see if we can get a little more aggressive in both houses rather than bending over backwards to keep the goopers happy. Si se peurde
I was so proud of Obama and his chat with Dean yesterday!
Note from Dean just now:
You may be right, but I would place money that, if the Bush adminstration does anything, the most would be to bomb some site in Iraq which supposedly has Iranian Quds or something. I don’t think even these idiots want to spend their last six months getting our entire army enveloped.
Lovely.
Obama went before AIPAC and declared the last seven years of neocon policy - a policy fundamentally supported by AIPAC - as an unmitigated disaster. If you didn’t see the difference between Obama’s and McCain’s speeches to AIPAC, please look harder.
Reminds me of what happened to Pasha Gordon in Khartoum.
LONDON (Reuters) - Oil rose by more than $3 a barrel to above $131 on Friday, bringing gains in the last two days to $9 as the dollar weakened further on a jump in the jobless rate in the United States.
Comments from Israel’s transport minister that an attack on Iranian nuclear sites looked “unavoidable” given the apparent failure of sanctions to deny Tehran technology with bomb-making potential also helped drive prices higher.
Marcy, as always, explains this move very well.
Obama & McCain econ advisors to be on CNBC in about a half hour.
mmmpph mmmpph *fist in mouth* *don’t say anything, don’t say anything*
Just got here, so playing catch-up, beginning with comment behind door number one. KayIM, you are spot on with the comparative ease of bombing to oblivion vs. genuine negotiation. USofA has lost its mojo re the negotiating thing. I am hopeful (there’s that pesky “h” word again) that Obama not only means what he says about diplomacy but actually practices it.
What you say is correct about the general neocon policy. But there was little mention of the Palestinians, and on the critical point of willingness to do anything to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapons, I don’t see a difference. Again, this is not about what Obama would do as President, but what Bush/Cheney might do before them. The critical period is the next six months, not next year.
Did Obama’s statement about the D party taking no more money from lobbyists include AIPAC? Hard to tell (for me, anyway).
From the wiki:
AIPAC is not a political action committee, and does not directly donate to campaign contributions.
Nevertheless,…”money is an important part of the equation.”
Between the 2000 and the 2004 elections, the 50 members of AIPAC’s board donated an average of $72,000 each to campaigns and political action committees.”
On balance, I’m thinking that Obama’s announcement cut off the AIPAC money/influence peddling, but I could easily be wrong.
Opinions?
Now you’ve got me scared. Bush may have seen the movie and think Charlton Heston was really cool.
I wouldn’t put it past them to want to leave nothing but major messes for Obama to have to clean up rather than allow him the space to push his own agenda.
It’s like showing up with your van full of stuff ready to move into your new house and you find it is full to the brim with the mess and stuff of the former owner. And the mess is toxic.
Well, yeah, but it stimulates the economy — even more than those juicy checks we’re all getting in the mail. /s
*g*
It’s tough, I know.
And the stock market is up 213 points.
But we just don’t have the “troops” to start another war, can Bush be so deluded STILL! to think that we could fight more and bigger wars?
We are an Evil people whose first response to anything is to kill it.
This is not exaggeration. This is fact.
This nation was foudned on genocide. It is a tradition we have continued and spread worldwide.
There is no reason to believe it’s going to come to an end.
All these speculators are gonna be surprised one of these days when all their paper ain’t worth shit.
The usual hormonal spike.
It’ll be a cold day in hell when Shrub puts a pistol in one hand and a sword in the other and goes out to defend the Empire. Fuckin’ asshole.
I have yet to be stimulated
*tappping foot*
I am waiting.
Yes, I watched Brzezinski too this morning, jayt. Zbig is still one of the smartest political realists around, and it wouldn’t surprise me if he eventually shifted from Supporter (with the capital “S” in his words) to something of an informal or formal advisor for Obama. I’m fairly sure Obama’s tuned in already to what he’s saying as well. The two were in close contact before Obama launched his campaign, and Zbig suggested it was probably in Obama’s best interest if he (Zbig) remained on the sidelines for the time being.
The other relevant thing he mentioned this morning was the strong possibility of heightened tensions with Iran just as the election approaches, all designed to help McCain even if much of it is bluster and smoke. While I have my doubts that Bush/Cheney will actually engage us in a military conflict with Iran (I just don’t see this as their plan at this stage, for a variety of reasons), I don’t doubt that they will work to create the illusion that one may be likely, purely for political gain, even as reckless as that is.
I’ll also register my disappointment with Obama’s recent rhetoric with AIPAC and some of the catch-words he’s floated with regard to Tehran and Iran’s nuclear program. I noted, though, that the media coverage of his speech there seemed almost unanimously positive, even though I expected a more mature and moral tone from him. Any shallow excuse of political requisites is not license to immoral and potentially perilous talk–especially with Bush/Cheney hands still on the triggers and political power levers.
We expect better of you, Barack.
Because he has bought the myth that it wouldn’t require any troops on the ground, just air power.
Bombs Away with Curtis LeMay!
Ah well. If you really believe that, we can’t fight it. If we’re doomed to be evil, I guess we ought to try to be good at it.
You mean the one that went directly from my checking account to my vet to help pay down my bill?
October is the usual time to roll out a new war (Iran). Rove + McCrazy = WAR…Yes?
where’s my darned handkerchief?
and if it weren’t for BushCo, I wouldn’t have to darn my handkerchiefs
The government has too much disposable income when all it seems capable of doing is spending it on weapons and wars.
The fact of the matter is, the government won’t change its course until “we the people” tell it too, in an unequivocal way. Clearly Obama, Clinton, McCain, and the current Junta, are not of the people, but of the government.
The first thing to realize in a situation like this is that no politician can be counted upon to deliver what is needed to end the government’s war footing. It has to come from “we the people” ourselves, alone.
I predict President Obama will not just open talks with Iran, he will GO to Tehran.
The two persons who would be most responsible for bombing Iran (and who would most likely do so enthusiastically) got fired yesterday by Gates. Bush was informed after the fact, apparently. I think there are people from the old Bush administration who are doing their best to prevgent another worse foreign policy disaster. Not to mention signals we can’t pick up from China, Russia, and India.
What Bush and Cheney want to do and what they are now able to do may no longer be the same. That thought, true or false, lets me sleep at night.
It is redistributing the money. We get a pittance back from our taxes, we spend it on petrol to get around, the oiligarchs up the price of oil, our taxes go the bushco oil interests. Just more stealing from the treasury by the family bush.
The Circle of Life: Geopolitics Edition
A nation starts out small and relatively powerless. Because it is weak, it can’t afford any mistakes, so it watches its chances carefully, and takes advantage of bigger nations grown complacent with power. Its intelligent behavior does so well for it that soon it is big and powerful. But being big and powerful makes it gradually lose the habit of disciplining its behavior to a rigidly realistic view of the world. Its power gives it the luxury of indulging its self-flattering fantasies about itself, and it wallows more and more in such delusions. The behavior dictated by these delusions leads to disaster after disaster, and the delusions themselves make it the easy mark of smaller, leaner nations which cannot, yet, afford self-delusion. The once-great and powerful nation is soon small and weak again.
This Iranian group was able to take the administration for a ride, not because Iran has some sort of magic or diabolical espionage skills, but because we have reached the stage in the above cycle of power where we are easy marks for a con. Our peculiar delusions are well known in a world that, quite reasonably, carefully studies the thinking of the world’s only superpower. And these delusions are easy to exploit.
Sadly, the stupidity engendered by excessive power is not confined to this administration. Dubya may indeed be the most extremely stupid and delusional person to ever be US president. But his election, and especially re-election after 4 years of the evidence of his delusional stupidity, make it quite clear that among the US electorate, stupid and delusional, especially as regards foreign policy, sells. No doubt Obama and the Democrats in general are much less inclined to delusional stupidity than Dubya. But what our side seems to think polticially expedient to say about Iran is still plenty stupid and delusional. The explanation that we are only constrained to say dumb things about Iran because we have to please the electorate is a statement of the real problem, not a reassuring excuse.
Are we bound to a wheel of fate that will drag us inexorably down? Of course not. A nation can accept the lessons that reality teaches about its delusions at any point in the downward swing. But what enforces the cyclical nature of this process is that power insulates the nation that wields it from the teaching consequences until the power has been squandered by the folly of acting on the delusions. The consequences haven’t come back to us, yet, so it would take forethought and imagination to shake the electorate from its complacent trust in the comforting delusions. But that is actually a hopeful perspective. We’ve only suffered 4,000 casualties (which is less than a month’s worth of the human toll we regularly sacrifice to tobacco and indulgent traffic laws without a second thought), and yet there are defintie signs that the electorate would be willing to take a lesson from even that. It remains to be seen if any of our politicos will have the will, the daring, and the imagination to follow up on that willingness to reverse course before we have hit bottom and are forced to reverse course.
Yeah, but he sems to feel heroic vicariously. I think for the 28 percenters, its not a whole lot different from rooting for the Dallas Cowboys. “We nailed ‘em that time!”
Then Obama will have to talk to a country we have attacked pre-election..war will be ‘McCrazy’s campaign.’
I got a nail for ‘em.
I think you and I agree.
They’re down to 25% now.
How low can they go? Many of us never thought they’d break 40%.
I like the trend line.
Never has, never will be a political price to pay for pandering to the Israel lobby. The Iran “problem” is of course 99% an Israel problem, or more accurately a zionist, likudist, AIPAC problem. Let the pandering begin, er, continue.
Instead of leadership by Obama during this interim period when future policies can really be scoped out and shaped (versus locking the new administration to more of the same), we will get no such thing, even if he has a clue how f**ked up the historic policy is.
that is why we need reparations as well as just trials for BushCo.
Wrt Iran, the politicians’ sabre rattling and Clinton’s brinksmanship (speaking of Kennedy!) is all about restoring the Pahlavi regime whose vestiges to this day labor to achieve this goal from the safety of the U.S. and elsewhere.
Gates and the Pentagon brass have their finger in the dike on the Bush/Cheney Iran war plans. They know, for starters, it would close the straights of hormuz and the price of oil would go to $300/barrel overnight. This is tantamount to handing the election to the Dems and a 2/3 majority in both houses of Congress. I know Bush/Cheney are mentally ill, but not everyone around them is ready for the funny farm.
Okay, that sounds good, but it’s still discouraging that there are that many. In my youth, I thought a lot of the ignorance and malevolence had been permantently defeated. An award winning movie even pointed out the ignorance of fundamentalism in the Scopes Monkey Trial, and college business courses were teaching that management was now enlightened enough to know that contented workers were more productive. Then it all rose up again with a vengeance.
Good Morning Scarecrow and Firedogs,
in an under caffeinated moment yesterday I foolishly thought SSCI II was Jello Jay’s idea of a preemptive salvo against Cheney’s Armagetiton
I’m thinking the Pentagon is not a very fun place to work right now.
Viet Nam redux. Curtis LeMay wanting to bomb them back to the stone age.
Ought to make pilots in the Air Farce see if they make it through a few engagements on the ground before they start bombing the shit out of everything. Killin’ folks from 30,000 feet is easy.
It should be. With or without the coffee.
Interesting observations there. I especially like how you phrase the idea of power insulating those who have wielded it from the “teaching consequences” of its overuse. A fairly apt description of our current regime, I think. I also tend to agree with your concluding question about whether we, as a democracy, learn how to reverse course before we’re essentially forced to “hit bottom.” That’s certainly one of the tests of the strength and vibrancy of any democracy.
Sen. Obama has no chance to get elected if he is perceived to be ‘weak’ re: Israel.
None of us know, but I suspect a much more even handed policy in the Middle East if he’s elected.
Off to swim in the great capitalist cesspool.
Play nice and don’t break anything.
Looks like the trolls met their match at the Lake and decided to leave a slime trail elsewheres.
Namaste
No No, we want absolute perfection right now or we’ll hold our breath till we turn blue!
when i read obama’s speech to a*p*c, i was very disappointed. probably because i expected something better from him.
in addition to the points scarecrow has mentioned, there was also the bit about not talking with terrorists and i especially didn’t like the bit about jerusalem being the capital of israel (when what israel considers jerusalem includes occupied palestinian territory - and our embassy is in tel aviv).
imperialistic to the core. but at least not bat shit crazy imperialistic.
Coming up after break on CNBC, O & M econ advisors.
I suspect the same. The issue of the post, again, is the interim period between now and then. That’s where our concerns about anybody’s saber-rattling rhetoric is most justified.
Another thing to consider: Wasn’t it later in the day of the AIPAC speech that Obama sort of cornered Lieberman, and told him to pretty much step off? (a move which garnered some pretty positive press as well, at least as far as the progressive/adult wing of the party is concerned). That could be interpreted as a broader signal as well, that Obama’s not going to be beholden to the usual B.S. about using national security as a political football.
A good sign, I thought.
lol. wanting better isn’t exactly the same thing as demanding perfection. and in any event, isn’t our job to speak out and not to fall in line behind our own dear leader?
You’re probably right. Given the likely landslide proportions of this electorate sick to death of Bush, can we realized just how f**ked up and pathetic this is?
I like that. But they need to be absolutely perfect and get elected.
Looks like the nation’s unemployment rate jumped to 5.5% last month; but not to worry: McCain said our economic fundamentals are fine, so I think I’ll go buy a new SUV.
but at least not bat shit crazy imperialistic.
I’m agreeing with you, but that distinction doesn’t make me feel much better.
:(
SUV sales are plummeting, too. They’d love your business!
O & M econ advisors on CNBC right now.
I’m with you on this, selise. Irks me to no end. I think Truman recognizing Israel was one of the all time mistakes of the 20th century — for it’s negative impact on world stability and peace. The idea that Israel had been sitting vacant for two thousand years until the Jews returned offends my brain. But the deed is done, where do we go from here?
Mornin’ pups. Jayt, said in last thread, Zbig has been an Obama advisor for several months, at least.
Was Remembering RFK over at my blog this morning in the context of the current discord-needing-unity in the Democratic party. Especially because of issues like Iran [excellent posting, Scarecrow], we must unite strongly behind Obama and restore not just Democratic office-holders, but Democratic principles.
Democrats’ve been adrift for 40 years as a party, Pete Hamill noted this morning on MSNBC, in one of Scarborough’s best conversations ever, for a whole lotta reasons. He’s right, and we have no time to waste on rancor. . We must get united and begin the momentum now, and that includes the current Democratic Senators.
Oh, and Joe Lieberman? A piglet squealing in the mud wallow.
Prairie Today: Remembering RFK
wait a minute! i take part of my complaint back.
much better. good for obama.
Would you be interested in my Grand Marquis?
I would propose that Jerusalem be declared a global heritage city. If Israelis and Palestinians both want that their capital, let ‘em have their buildings but keep the city united as a global heritage city, protected by all of us.
CNBC nterview with O & M econ advisors: Good Qs, bad As. Both were articulate but spoke mostly garbage.
Um, don’t hold your breath waiting for that.
i’ve just started reading “An Israeli in Palestine” by Jeff Halper (a personal hero of mine) who will be here for book salon on june 22 (hoping ecahn will be including participation as one of the day’s events).
imo, we listen to people like jeff halper, gassan andoni, ali abunimah.
p.s. scarecrow, do you know who is going to be hosting the book salon with halper?
Amen, Prairie
What I just can’t understand is how the GOP loonies think they can continue to shape this debate as good (Israeli) vs bad (Palestinian freedom fighters). People in this country aren’t blind! They can see how the Palestinians have been pushed against the wall. Americans have always supported the underdog, and this is no different. Americans have always supported the right to self-defense, and that is all Hamas is trying to achieve.
I think we’ve seen already that Obama will say what is politically expedient in order to get elected, but we need to see past that. I agree with STTPinOhio@91 and Fiyero that when we have Obama in the White House, control of both the Senate and H.R. and our people running the State Department and Defense things are going to change. Dramatically.
Brzezinski himself only calls himself a “Supporter” (capital S - his own words as of this morning) but specifically not an advisor. He gently corrected his own daughter on this point on Morning Joe last week. (Joe is best when he just lets Zbigniew talk. His questions are often so dense and stupid.)
Check out this YouTube video of that appearance - it’s worth watching.
I would certainly like to see Brzezinski take on a formal advisory role down the road, and I think that is a good possibility.
From the article, Obama’s”clarification” includes
I’m not sure what the hell that means, but it certainly doesn’t seem to imply much concern for arab East Jerusalem.
here are some links
and this
FRIGHTENING STUFF HERE AND WE ARE NOW WARNED
Elliott and SD, we love our stimuli, eh? Wish me luck, everyone. I’m leaving now for the MN state convention in Rochester. I’m a delegate. What was I thinking?! Have a great weekend at the lake!
Clarification, I didn’t see the Zbig interview, I watched the segment with Pete Hamill and Bill Eppridge, the journalist who took the iconic photo of RFK down and the busboy. When Scarborough conducts conversations like these he really can do a terrific job. Too bad the script too often demands screed.
good work barbara!
and good luck, travel safely, and report in!!
wapo:
By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, June 6, 2008; 9:30 AM
Facing criticism from Palestinians, Sen. Barack Obama acknowledged yesterday that the status of Jerusalem will need to be negotiated in future peace talks, amending a statement earlier in the week that the city “must remain undivided.”
Obama’s statement, made during a speech Wednesday to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, a pro-Israel lobbying group, drew a swift rebuke from Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.
“This statement is totally rejected,” Abbas told reporters in the West Bank city of Ramallah. “The whole world knows that holy Jerusalem was occupied in 1967, and we will not accept a Palestinian state without having Jerusalem as the capital of a Palestinian state.”
The Bush administration’s official position is that the status of Jerusalem must be decided by the parties. Before he left office, President Bill Clinton proposed a formula under which “Jerusalem should be an open and undivided city,” including locating the Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.
Obama quickly backtracked yesterday in an interview with CNN.
“Well, obviously, it’s going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues. And Jerusalem will be part of those negotiations,” Obama said when asked whether Palestinians had no future claim to the city.
Obama said “as a practical matter, it would be very difficult to execute” a division of the city. “And I think that it is smart for us to — to work through a system in which everybody has access to the extraordinary religious sites in Old Jerusalem but that Israel has a legitimate claim on that city.”
But Rep. Robert Wexler (D-Fla.) later said on behalf of the Obama campaign that Obama’s comment to CNN should not be seen as backtracking or even an amendment. He said Obama was clarifying that he has long believed it is up to the parties involved to determine the status of Jerusalem.
good luck and i hope you have a great time!
We did Inherit the Wind in high school in 1966. Though I loved the play (and still do) I couldn’t believe that it was an issue.
Boy was I wrong!
Tempting sell there, Crosstimbers, but I’d have to test drive it first. I don’t think it’d fit in my garage.
lina, i hope you are right. i’m worried that all the sensible ones have resigned or forced into retirement. Anyway, i’m happy to hear anything to the contrary. Thanks.
for a bit of recent history on how our D congress has sometimes worked to give bush the green light, see item #280 on hugh’s list.
Haven’t seen anything on the Salon host.
wrt to Obama’s clarification wrt to Jerusalem, I saw that on CNN last night, and there’s a Reuters link in the post, just before Yglesias.
Yeah, you’re right. Joe can be okay sometimes. He and Mika were actually a pleasure to watch this morning when they joked around with Obama’s communications director Robert Gibbs about the herding of press onto the plane and away from the secret O-C meeting last night.
Obama said “as a practical matter, it would be very difficult to execute” a division of the city. “And I think that it is smart for us to — to work through a system in which everybody has access to the extraordinary religious sites in Old Jerusalem but that Israel has a legitimate claim on that city.”
sounds like global heritage city to me….
thanks! and my apologies for not clicking through all of your links.
It’s Robert Dreyfuss, I asked our fabu Book Salon coordinator Bev Wright.
The Dreyfuss Report
Shameful. This is an historic occasion :)
I believe Gates is sane. He’s a Republican, and he works for Bush, but he’s not out of touch with reality.
So no one has any ideas as to my #53, asking whether Obama’s statement that the D party will no longer accept lobbyist or PAC money applies to AIPAC as well?
I believe Christy has a new post up and ready. Take care everyone.
“this is a marathon, not a sprint”
Thank you Scarecrow, have a fun weekend.
The Romans didn’t exterminate Jews from Judah and Semarah, though they took quite a few, including intellegencia and leaders. There have been Jews in that area all this time, tho in enclaves. Also, under the Jewish National Fund, started in 1902(ish), Jews of Europe had been sending money to buy (redeem) land for later.
From Reuters:
I don’t think AIPAC (as a group) endorses candidates or gives money to races. Maybe someone can correct me on that.
that would be a good question to ask at emptywheel — Marcy’s got a post on this right now.
“Global heritage”
I like the sound of that.
Applied reasonably, every part of the planet becomes a part of “global heritage” and, realistically then, if we are not hopelessly ethnocentric or blindly ‘nationalistic’, is off-limits for ‘destructive’ activities or behaviors.
Bingo! No more warfare, exploitation or general mayhem in the name of God, freedom, or free enterprise.
Prairie Sunshine, I suspect you’ve just given us the key to the future.
If we don’t make proper use of it, then there may well be no future for humanity.
Actually it’s a win-win situation.
Either we get it: together …
Or, we’re outta here!!
Thereby, improving the neighborhood …
Amen. A global heritage city!
Didn’t he specify corporate PAC money?
thanks. was just thinking it could be a great salon, or a horrible one depending on who hosted it. don’t know dreyfuss, but will check him out.
I hope no one considering striking Iran purportedly to prevent nuclear weapons development, or anyone with the willingness to facilitate or countenance such a strike, thinks we don’t know about the International Atomic Energy Agency ( IAEA ).
i had it explained to me by a settler in kedumim - how redeeming the land means clearing it of arabs. :(
The Israel Lobby can and will destroy the career of any politician and just about any academic. Obama knows this, and so do the people around him.
I agree that the next six months are the issue, and I too bemoan the democrats willingness to enable Bush. Pelosi’s cave in to AIPAC last year when she deleted a provision from pending legislation that would have demanded congressional approval of any strike on Iran was, in my opinion. unconscionable.
But Obama was quite clear that “sustained and aggressive diplomacy” must be undertaken. Here’s the pertinent quote from his AIPAC speech:
Bush will most certainly NOT undertake any diplomacy at all, much less sustained and aggressive diplomacy. I don’t think Obama gave Bush any cover at all with these comments. I don’t think Obama can respond to a Bush attack on Iran by saying “well, sustained and aggressive diplomacy failed.” I actually found Obama’s comments very encouraging insofar as they appeared to foreclose any support for a Bush strike on Iran in the next six months.
We all know why Obama and Clinton say what they say to AIPAC. I firmly believe that Clinton was AIPAC’s favored candidate, and that Obama’s victory is a victory over AIPAC’s neocon inflected policies. But now is not the time to be subjecting Obama to litmus tests of purity. We’ve got to trust him on this one.
Why Are Democrats Giving Bush a Green Light On Iran?
why oh why are those frogs sitting on sunny rocks, zapping flies with their long, elastic tongues?
why oh why can’t those frogs have feathers, and spines, and wings coming off the spines! so that they could fly, and sing! and build their nests out of twigs, and mate for life, to members of their own sex if they wanted to - why what wonderful frogs those would be!
because those are birds that do that, and frogs are not birds, and will never be birds.
In order to sincerely oppose the incredibly hideous nightmare of aggressive war against Iran, one would have to not support, give money to, and vote for candidates of a party that advocates such a war.
you cannot cajole a big bullfrog with plaintive letters and faxes and phone messages that are screened and disposed of by froggy staffers, begging the frog to not eat the tasty flies and try gathering a few twigs to build a nest up in that tree with.
Its not really an if anymore - the froggy party (the Democrats) are clearly willing to allow the Cheney Admin its last wargasm - they are doing nothing to avert it. all the candidates kowtowing to AIPAC recently is not really new or surprising.
what were you expecting?
oh yeah, “Change”.
But an enormous amoumt of money is raised through mailing lists and contribution networks managed by AIPAC. George Soros writes:
The pro-Israel lobby has been remarkably successful in suppressing criticism. Politicians challenge it at their peril because of the lobby’s ability to influence political contributions. When Howard Dean called for an evenhanded policy toward Israel in 2004, his chances of getting the nomination were badly damaged (although it was his attempt, after his defeat in Iowa, to shout above the crowd that sealed his fate). Academics had their advancement blocked and think-tank experts their funding withdrawn when they stepped too far out of line. Following his criticism of repressive Israeli policy on the West Bank, former president Jimmy Carter has suffered the loss of some of the financial backers of his center.
Anybody who dares to dissent may be subjected to a campaign of personal vilification.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/20030
Why would Obama use the word “undivided” to describe Jerusalem?
He is not a stupid man, and diplomatic words in foreign affairs are highly loaded and, one would think, highly vetted.
Abbas responded that the remarks were totally unacceptable and, within the ongoing kabuki that is the ME they are indeed.
My only thought is that Obama used the word knowingly — going far to the right of even the right wingers — knowing he would be called on it and be forced to “correct” himself back into the center. I.e., he would show himself to be really pro-Israel, so much so as to continue to defuse latent suspicion on this score.
That’s the only case — craven as it is — I can imagine for this smart man sayhing a dumb thing. Some might call such and approadch canny. I call it stupid, and cynical.
As interesting read over at Asian Times…
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/M.....5Ak02.html
I think yours is a fair reading of his speech. It is a nuanced speech. The point I’m making is that Bush/Cheney are not “fair” or nuanced readers. It’s not Obama in 2009 I’m worried about; it’s them in 2008. If we get through this period without another war, I’ll be happy to admit I was brainless.
nor instead of “or” after the first comma would have let the sentence make sense.
The Bush administration has tended to treat IAEA as an inept or possibly corrupt body whose findings should not count for all that much alongside US and Israeli intel. Democrats in leadership should counter that dissing.