Molly, Steve, welcome to the Lake and bringing this important film.

Welcome Molly and Steve to the FDL Book Salon!

Welcome to firedoglake, Molly and Steve! Looking forward to a great discussion.

Siun, welcome and thank you for Hosting this special event.

Hey Siun!

Molly and Steve welcome to FDL!

Molly, as a native Kentuckian, I grew up reading the Courier-Journal when it was one of the premier papers in the land.

May I say that you do your father and grandfather proud.

It’s an honor with work this good and filmmakers with such courage and clarity.

Hi Everyone!

Thanks so much for having us with you today. We’re looking forward to a good discussion.

Molly

Hey everyone,

We’re on and thanks for such a warm welcome. Siun, an honor and a pleasure.

Aloha, Siun, Molly, and Steve!

Perhaps we could start at the beginning since I am really fascinated by the mentions of Molly being arrested and jailed in Abu Ghraib … and curious how you decided to stay around Iraq and go forward with such a project?

I’ve watched the DVD, amazing and eye opening. How much preparation time did it take to get into the community, and get their trust?

Hey CTuttle, I recognize that screen name. A fellow Badger-ista, I believe??

Good afternoon Molly and Steve. Great introduction for a great film. Welcome to the Lake.

Hi Daklne01,
I am very lucky to have grown up in the family i did. What is best in me about journalism comes from my dad and the family experiences at the Courier/Times. I am honored that you feel i belong in the lineage! My father was well informed about the film in its editing process before he died, and Steve and i dedicated the film to him.
thanks for joining us today…

I watched it last night, and I was really stuck by how candid your interview subjects were with you. How unvarnished their comments seemed.

Are all Iraqis this free spoken when dealing with westerners?

Thank you Molly, Steve and Siun.

It is a dishonor to humanity to continue to portray those that have been invaded, murdered, tortured, starved, rendered penniless and jobless and hopeless as “bad people”.

I hope that every American would at least TRY to walk a mile in their shoes…

Thank you again.

Most certainly! ;-)

I know Jane was on a plane and unsure if she would get back online to join in this afternoon but she has called Molly “uncommonly brave and smart” and wanted me to send her greetings.

Anything you would like to say about the future of the insurgency in Iraq, the civil war, the Sons of Iraq, Maliki, the flare ups in Basra and Sadr City?

CTuttle blogs at Main and Central and is a great participant in trying to bring some sense to the news from Iraq.

A question for either Steve or Molly…

“… a guy that she met in the course of doing that story afterwards said to Molly’s translator, “I’m in the resistance.”

A Sadrist…?

Thanks Bev. Two things: the first is that we spent a looong, looong time just being in that community, hanging out in teashops, drinking tea, smoking cigs and playing backgammon. Molly says the film should be called caffiene and nicotine poisoning in Baghdad:)

People would approach us – we spoke to about 45 over the ten month period – and then our secret weapon came into play – our translator. She would then have the very important conversation in which she’d establish a level of confidence we were able to build on.

Also, of course, the Iraqi’s are such a hospitable people – an idea getting lost in the mellee

Thanks twolf1. welcome

In the film, it is mentioned that 83% (i think that was the number) of people involved in the resistance are motivated by religion. How does this play to the Bush Administration’s claims that if we pull out, there will be chaos?

You’re too kind, Siun! *g*

Hi Siun,
While being detained by Saddam’s security services during the invasion of Iraq was an important time in my life – and critical experience for me – it doesn’t have too much in the way of a relationship with the project that Steve and i ultimately worked on regarding the resistance in Iraq.

I was arrested on the morning of March 25, 2003 in the Palestine hotel with three other western journalists and one peace activist and held in Abu Ghraib for 8 days. It was not fun and i was very scared that i would die there. But, as all’s well that ends well, we were all released having been physically unharmed on April 2 and we each found our way back to Iraq after that experience.

I am very glad i went back into Iraq two and a half weeks after being released as it allowed me to overlay what was a pretty unpleasant experience in the country with one that more realistically reflected the people, culture and traditions of Iraq. The Iraqis are a wonderful and welcoming people, legendary for their hospitality, and Steve and i were lucky enough to enjoy some aspects of that as journalists working there.

The project that became MEETING RESISTANCE came about as Steve and i were working as freelance journalists around the country for various newspapers and magazines. Any journalist who was there in the spring of 2003 was aware of these sporadic small scale attacks against coalition forces at that time and Steve and i, having covered conflicts for a combined 30+ years in other countries around the world, felt that it was important journalistically to find out from first hand reporting who was behind those attacks. What kinds of people are they, what part of society, what education level, economic level, were they Ba’ath party members? had they done their military service? what role did religion play in their lives and ultimate when and why did they begin to fight? those questions then led into more specific logistical, structural and capacity type questions regarding how the resistance to the occupation was actually being carried out.

Also, of course, the Iraqi’s are such a hospitable people – an idea getting lost in the mellee

Isn’t it though? Shameful that these really wonderful folks are being painted by the very worst of xenophobia and ignorance by the West…

An ancient civilization being destroyed by young upstarts (us) and propaganda.

I would think that almost any Iraqi who was shown any modicum of respect and dignity would be more than generous in sharing their experiences, feelings and much more.

Yes, for sure. And often to their detriment. What was very special about the people we spoke to was how controlled they were on camera. One guy who watched the film said it was the first time he’d heard Arabic that wasn’t being screamed at him. I think he’s been seeing too much aftermath of Israeli missile attacks….

I was struck by that statistic as well, though for another reason.

If the inspiration for the resitance isn’t nationalism as we understand it in the west, but rather religion (some of your interview subjects had already been fighting for other muslim countries) does that not–I can’t believe I’m saying this–actually support Dick Cheney’s view of them?

Ew, just ew.

That’s very kind of Jane. I think my mother just thinks I’m crazy! but i do feel dedicated to the responsibility of journalism to inform the public, even when the topic may be uncomfortable.

…or after a hellfire missile attack in Sadr City…! 8-(

Interesting point Angie. You have an ally in the British Chief of General Staff (top of the Brit military) who said that for the most part “insurgents” in Iraq are not bad people…

In essence, being actual journalists?

It is so disheartening that we in the States have seen so little real journalism from Iraq – while I felt like we lived with propaganda during Vietnam for example, we saw more and reporters did dig and report.

I have a question. I’ve always wondered if the “suicide” bombers are Iraqi resistance, outsiders, or if it is just propaganda to prop up the GWOT. It just doesn’t seem like an Iraqi thing to do.

Hi CTuttle,

Actually, i was in Adhamiya on an assignment in mid-May 2003 to photograph the last places Saddam was seen before he disappeared. Both of those places were in Adhamiya. So i was photographing the mosque, Abu Hanifeh, when the translator i was working with and i were approached by a middle-aged man who asked very kindly if i’d like a tour of the mosque and some information about the neighborhood – see my reference to amazing hospitality above! – i accepted his offer and we had a nice visit for about an hour chatting about the area, about its history and the current situation. He showed me one thing specifically, which was a garden in the courtyard of the mosque that had been turned into a special cemetery for people who had died fighting the entrance of American troops to Adhamiya on April 9 and 10, 2003. there were a few dusty graves there. no headstones. but he talked proudly of how the neighborhood had fought.
after an hour i had to leave and go file. i thanked him and left to get in the car. my translator was chatting with him a few minutes longer and when she joined me in the car said ‘you’ll never believe what that guy just told me – he’s in the resistance.’ this was the first time i’d heard the arabic word ‘mokowama’, meaning resistance, and it was amazing to me that a middle aged, moderate, charming, easy going man like himself would be involved in some way in the violence – at least it hadn’t been what i’d expected. Steve and i talked about that encounter and a few others we had during the spring and ultimately decided to try to put together a series of interviews with people actively engaged in the fight. We began reporting for the project/the film in August 2003 and worked on it for ten months. The individual i met at the mosque that May afternoon we were lucky enough to be able to find again and he agreed to be interviewed on camera. He is the “Teacher” in the film.

…those questions then led into more specific logistical, structural and capacity type questions regarding how the resistance to the occupation was actually being carried out.

What truly irks me these days, is the fact that this Maladministration is hyping the logistical support coming from Iran… Granted the Quds forces does provide some support, but, isn’t the vast majority ‘home-grown’? And they’re over-hyping the Iranian support?

Molly and Steve – perhaps the central “shock” of the film for those fed by the MSM (and too much elsewhere) is how very ordinary the resisters are. They really are the regular guys – and gals, people like us.

Did you feel that they were already leaders in their neighborhood?

Sorry – so i should just add that no, the teacher isn’t/wasn’t a Sadrist, but the Sadrist nationalists and what was then called the “Sunni nationalist insurgency” had many parallels and things in common. we witnessed them supporting each other in April 2004 during the Sadr uprising and when Mahdi Army fighters came into Adhamiya to claim their support and allegiance with the city of Falluja as it came under attack by the american forces after the killing of the four contractors in the city.

Hi Hugh,

First of all, I’d just like to make it clear that MR is about the violent resistance to occupation and, other than tangentially and quite subtly showing the causes, does not cover the separate civil war. We try not to use the I word because that is what has created much of the confusion about Iraq and has been utilized in so much of the myth building.

The civil war is no less a product of the occupation and, for Iraqi’s, much more devastating. As we see it the US has set in motion, promoted and exacerbated, competing visions of Iraqs future. But for the most part, that’s a war that is often being fought by different actors than the violence against the US presence itself.

In simple terms, the civil war is between the nationalists (the overwhelming majority of Arab Iraqi’s) and the Partitionists – former exiles, some Kurds and Islamic State of Iraq/AQI types. The US is, to one degree or another, on the partitionist side; if not rhetorically then certainly by action.

Propaganda in what sense, that there is not really such a thing or who they are?

Speaking of Israeli missile attacks, one interview subject “the warrior” was describing how he was tortured as “something you wouldn’t even wish on a Jew”

It startled me b/c I would have thought at that stage hatred for Americans would have trumped anti Semitism. Yet, the offhand manner in which it seemed to be delivered made me wonder, it seemd as if Jews are not human. The way people in the US say “I wouldn’t wish that on a dog”

It seemed as if, angry as they were with us for invading their country, we were still “special” or important, like we were VIP invaders. High status invaders. I’m not expressing this well, but almost like class consciousness or something.

I felt like I was missing some fundamental knowledge, that there were assumptions underlying what was being said and I didn’t get the memo and, so, cannot trust my own evaluation of the content of their messages.

Except maybe the Academic–he seemed to speak from a western psychological platform. I felt that I stood a decent chance of correctly evaluating what he was saying. The others, I would not trust my own judgement about.

Mahalo,(thank you) so he was a Ba’athist?

Spread the word, Digg and Spotlight this post please.

Welcome Molly and Steve,

Thank you for such a powerful film. Sorry it was necessary, but I really enjoyed the hands and the tea shots.. very powerful.

Towards the end you covered a particular bombing during a celebration outside of a mosque.. Several people seemed quite certain much of these random bombings were (are?) not conducted by Iraqis… both Mossad and US were mentioned.. They never mentioned Al Q. I couldn’t help but wonder how much nasty truth may lie in these observations.. After all the entire war seems to be intentionally designed for prolonged Chaos and these types of bombing certainly achieve such a goal.

One of my Iraqi contacts speaks particularly often of the willingness and sacrifice of Sadrists in support of the people of Fallujah.

The division between Shia and Sunni has been the centerpiece of US excuses for not leaving in my mind (manufactured by Bremer et al) – I was so glad you sent over the final video clip for us to use today and hope everyone takes the time to watch it – one core myth dispelled!

Yep, it’s the Jews that do it all.

Either or both. I’ve wondered if explosions have been deemed as AQ type suicide bomber tactics in order to boost the support to fight AQ; but that some may have been remote controlled explosions perhaps by resisters. Just wondering.

It’s amazing how Sadr can work with so many disparate elements of Iraq… One reason Maliki is so terrified of him… It seems Maliki is now about to launch another ‘operation’ into Amara(Maysan Province) similar to his ops in Mosul, Sadr City, and Basra…!

There is certainly a lot of speculation that the US was involved in or carried out the bombing of the Golden Mosque …

What would be the U.S. motive?

“In the film, it is mentioned that 83% (i think that was the number) of people involved in the resistance are motivated by religion. How does this play to the Bush Administration’s claims that if we pull out, there will be chaos?”

“I was struck by that statistic as well, though for another reason.

If the inspiration for the resitance isn’t nationalism as we understand it in the west, but rather religion (some of your interview subjects had already been fighting for other muslim countries) does that not–I can’t believe I’m saying this–actually support Dick Cheney’s view of them?”

This was one of the things that for us remains difficult to understand until we take on board the fact that being a muslim is part of Iraqs national identity. There are also secular nationalists, pan-Arab nationalists and pan-Islamists (Islam being a nation). These issues are not defined by sect.

We must remember that we attacked them, no matter what has transpired since and for all the people we spoke to their actions are a necessary (and prescribed) act of defence of their identity as Iraqis and muslims.

This could be a 5,000 word essay.

The same as their motivation for engineering 9/11. . .right?

BTW, did you see Sanchez’s mention that Shrub went into a massive tirade over the four contractors and ordered the decimation of Falluja…? Another war crime to add to Shrub’s extensive list…!

Forgive me as I have not yet seen your film, but I would like to know how the Iraqis feel about the widely broadcasted killing of Saddam’s sons and of Saddam himself…

Also, did you get a feeling for their views about the “sectarian” violence. iirc, Iraqis did intermarry and live in peace and I believe that the civil war was caused by the Coalition and others for nefarious reasons as well as purely political gain.

And ignoring the blindingly obvious fact that Tehran’s proxies in Iraq are the executive branch of the Iraqi government, fully supported and sustained by the US. No US troops, no Supreme Council…. Strange bedfellows

As the hinge driving tension between Shia and Sunni, it is seen as very convenient for occupiers who do not have to face a united resistance.

Meanwhile, back to Steve’s comment at 51 which I think is very important:

This was one of the things that for us remains difficult to understand until we take on board the fact that being a muslim is part of Iraqs national identity. There are also secular nationalists, pan-Arab nationalists and pan-Islamists (Islam being a nation). These issues are not defined by sect.

We must remember that we attacked them, no matter what has transpired since and for all the people we spoke to their actions are a necessary (and prescribed) act of defence of their identity as Iraqis and muslims.

The Iraqi people in the film believed it was something no Iraqi would ever do.. and they believed it was strictly designed (by CIA Mossad types) to spread chaos.

Nope. Engineering 9/11 would give them carte blanche to do whatever they want in the U.S. Bombing the Golden Mosque would make U.s. role in iraq much much more difficult.

I get the idea that disorder in Iraq creates an excuse for U.S. to stay forever. But bombing the mosque would create chaos far beyond the excuse the U.S. would need.

I give equal credence to both theories. Zip.

I have a question. I’ve always wondered if the “suicide” bombers are Iraqi resistance, outsiders, or if it is just propaganda to prop up the GWOT. It just doesn’t seem like an Iraqi thing to do.

So – if you look at what is happening in iraq as two wars – there is a resistance against occupation, which takes up the majority of the violence, and then there is a civil war happening simultaneously.

Meeting Resistance is about the resistance to occupation, but the notion of how the society is constructed and inter-related is touched on towards the end of the film. Many in america believe that the civil war is sectarian. steve and i feel very differently.

the civil war is a political civil war between two very different perspectives on what iraq’s future should look like. On one hand you have Nationalists, who want to keep Iraq’s identity unified, retain a strong central government and keep Iraq’s natural resources nationalized.

On the other side of the conflict you have Partitionists who seek to divided the country into three along ethnic and sectarian lines – sunni, Shia, kurd – support strong regional governments, a weak or no central government and privatizing Iraq’s natural resources.

there are Sunni and Shia on both sides of this civil war, so while the conflict can sometimes take on a sectarian tone, the basis of the war is not sectarian. sectarianism is a consequence of the political conflict. The Nationalists consist of the Sadrist trend (Shia) and the (largely Sunni) ‘resistance’ to occupation. On the partitionist side you have SCIRI (Shia exiles returned from Iran), Al Qaeda Iraq (Sunni), the executive branch of the government, and it seems the United States who supports the parties who are seeking the partition, even though the stated policy is that we support a united Iraq.

If you combine that perspective on the civil war with the fact that NO resistance to occupation, or insurgency against a consituted government will attack its own population because it depends on public support to be effective, then the next question to ask is “who is attacking the civilians – and why?”

in our view, the partitionists – who, btw, lack a constituency in Iraq, are the logical answer to that question. They are the ones who seek to divide the country and to convince an inter-married, mixed society that they need to separate you must aggressively start attacking civilian populations and blaming it on someone. Sometimes suicide bombers are used to accomplish that objective. But Steve and i also feel that it’s highly likely that often the people/vehicles utilized to deliver an attack are ignorant of their role in it – by which i mean, their car may be wired at night with explosives by someone who seeks to carry out an attack and as they drive to work the next morning a car with the people organizing the wiring follow him/her and use a cell phone or other technology to detonate the explosives. Also, i think it’s worth noting that in this word of home made bombs it is likely that many detonate at a time other than when they were intended for – ie a driver delivering explosives to someone else or to a military/police/american target may detonate by mistake in a more heavily civilian area…it’s hard to be sure each bomb goes off at its intended target.

Oh sure, just like no Iraqi would store weapons in mosques.

Hello Molly and Steve,
Fascinating work that you’ve done on this film! unbelievably daring work. I hate us and what we’ve done to the Iraqi’s. I don’t see how we can set it right.

Only if you care to share, what do you see as the best course of action for the US regarding Iraq? Would the Iraqis see America in a better light if Bush were to be impeached?

Ah … partying with Hakim is not your idea of an anti-iranian position?

I find I “understand” (not really) so many reporters glossing and covering up the hard ugly stories from Iraq (abuse of detainees, US caused civilian casualties, etc) – hard to get air time, frightens the audience, etc but the willingness to completely ignore who our selected puppet government is just astounds me.

Have you had contact with the people you interviewed, what has happened since the end of the filming? How many are still alive?

Now that makes sense, thanks.

Careful, I about got run out of here for saying that.

“Did you feel that they were already leaders in their neighborhood?”

A good question Siun. Yes there were some “leaders” but leadership itself is a strange concept in this regard. All the people we spoke to had come to the fight as a personal decision that was an act of conscience (inspired by thousands of years of cultural history) so a leader just becomes someone with more skills who’s walking the same path. If he veers from that straight and narrow he’s no longer fit to follow (and will likely be killed in the process). I’ve only seen one reference to this in the MSM and that was a quote from a US special forces officer in Diyala. He stated that no matter how many they kill, there are always more to replace them. “They’re no like us, they don’t need leadership.” He said.

And Hakim’s SCIRI and his Badr Brigades are the main recipients of Iran’s largesse… Interesting, that the Badr Brigades have been incorporated into the IA, but, not the Sunni Awakening Councils, nor, the Sadr Mehdi Army members…! Also, many of the Badr members fought against Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war of the 80’s…

Maybe it just suggests that ‘things’ are more complex (and, at the same time, more ‘basic’) and that whatever means these people have to maintain THEIR sanity in an insane situation (taken to them by ‘us’) might well be ‘beyond’ us.

How long has it been since ‘war’ happened ‘here’, that we might have some actual idea what ‘it’ is REALLY like?

What does Dick Cheney know about anything?

So?

LHP, maybe the ‘western’ view ain’t the only legitimate one.

Assuming the Rapture ain’t on us too soon, other ‘views’ might well be coming to the fore, whether we understand them, like them, or simply don’t ‘get’ them.

It is our responsibility to try to understand. Even if we can’t.

Our ‘day’ in the sun, is past.

Our job is to not destroy anything through ignorance OR through arrogance.

It’s a tough job, but we’ve no choice, unless we want more of the (Mc)same.

The rest of the world is losing patience with US, not with the Iraki people …

But, there is a secret deal … maybe you’ve heard of it? To stay in Irak forever, whether the Iraki people like it or not. Whether the American people want it or not.

THAT is what Cheney thinks, whatever he may say about ‘extremists’ …

Sooo?

Whadda ya think?

Perhaps, if the ‘war’ comes home, our behaviors might get a bit squirrelly or (Noooo!) even more religiously absurd.

Comparing the Iraki people with the American people, one must wonder who is more sane, more connected to life and truth …

Thanks so much for the explanation.

Molly and Steve – perhaps the central “shock” of the film for those fed by the MSM (and too much elsewhere) is how very ordinary the resisters are. They really are the regular guys – and gals, people like us.

Did you feel that they were already leaders in their neighborhood?

I think one or two of them were probably known in their neighborhoods, but they weren’t “leaders” in the typical sense – ie they didn’t have official leadership positions. but they are/were people who commanded a level of respect and authority based on their past participation in the community.

I think the most important thing to point out here is that when we show this film to US military audiences many of them come away saying “darn right, if America was occupied i’d be out there doing the same thing!”

while MEETING RESISTANCE is definitely about Iraq, it is shaped, colored and textured by the religion, culture and history specific to the country, when you take a step back from it it is really a film about the human condition under occupation. we’ve seen occupations around the world and thoughout history and we’ve seen resistance to those occupations, why should Iraq and Iraqis be any different – particularly when they have a history of being occupied and have shown they intend to resist?!

I’m not saying that W actually was behind 9/11, but that I could understand why some think he was, because his subsequent actions have looked like he relished the event.

Wow, my low-info slip is showing. I had no idea.

Welcome Molly and Steve. I stand in awe of your courage. thank you for getting these stories and info to everyone.

I didn’t think you were, I was simply saying what I thought of the two theories.

Thank you for that very clear exposition. It is so important that that information gets out.

Erdla & Khaled

Hi Angie

re your question about sectarianism, i think if you look at my answer about teh civil war and suicide attacks you’ll get some answer. basically, Iraqis who have STAYED in Iraq through the 80s and 90s, ie were not exiles, believe that sunni/shia differences are irrelevant. it is those who left and have told themselves that they had to leave because they were Shia – the reality is that they had to leave because they were politically active in forbidden parties against a repressive dictator – who push the concept that the differences are something Iraqis would kill over.

Aloha, Erdla and Khaled! *g*

Yes, there’s a huge amount of anti-Israel sentiment in Iraq – for some reason – and the word Jew really shorthands that. However, The Traveller – the guy in the film who fought alongside the Palestinians for 20 years – never used the word. He would always say, “Zionist” and apply the political distinction.

Additionally, many Iraqi’s believe that the US invaded on behalf of Israel. Personally, I don’t know because like everyone else in the world I still haven’t had a full explanation of why the US went to Iraq in the first place.

I was struck by something else. I think it was the elemntry schoolteacher said that before the invasion, e was not religious, but now he wanted to fight for islam and therefore had become devout.

Here’s me being al western again. If someone invaded and occupied the US, I would certainly feel a desire to resist that occupation. I don’t see it motivating me to go to Mass on Sunday (very lapsed Catholic here).

When describing whether or not to allow a new person into a resitance cell, a very important part of the vetting process seemed to be how devout a muslim the aspiring freedom fighter was. As opposed to how good/experienced a fighter or how trustworthy a character.

There is some disconnect for me. I feel like I am missing some basic premise

The Iraqi people in the film believed it was something no Iraqi would ever do.. and they believed it was strictly designed (by CIA Mossad types) to spread chaos.

Actually, the Imam in the film says that Mossad and US intelligence do a lot of things that “we don’t completely know about”. If you have any doubt of our history of such activity, i recommend Tim Weiner’s book “legacy of ashes”…but only after you’ve got a copy of our film!

That makes a lot of sense given the way US forces and our allies have so often blocked or removed effective local efforts to block suicide bomb attacks. We know that Sadrist forces who were effectively policing access to several markets were forced to stand down, “replaced” by SCIRI/Badr forces … and the result were the horrific bombings two Novembers ago (iirc). Add in the persistent reports that ambulances are blocked from quick access in some locations …

And I see our friends from GorillasGuides have joined us @75 – as my comment draws on much I have read in their first hand reporting, it’s great to have them aboard today.

Yes, for sure. Just the guy to have a nuclear button:)

Thanks for this and your comment @ #60.

Thank you and I did read your #60 and am grateful for your elucidation.

but of course they do, and the wool is just now being lifted.

I don’t know what the right answer is, but my hypothesis is that it is a question of identity. The difference between the analogies (some country invades U.S. vs. U.S. invades Iraq) is that there is a much greater national identity in the U.S. that would be greatly puffed up by a foreign invasion. Iraq is a much younger country, run by a dictator for a large part of its history. Therefore, its national identity is weak, and its religious identity relatively strong.

Besides there are plenty of U.S. citizens who would head directly to church if U.S. were invaded. Not you or I, but many many others.

LHP – we live in a culture that assume a separation of secular and religious. Islam does not separate the two and when “secular” Iraqis see us leading a “crusade” against their homeland, I think you’d find the renewed dedication to their society’s root pretty understandable.

Think back – if the “godless red commies” invaded your town etc – you might well have found yourself more attached to your catholic heritage I suspect.

Forgive me as I have not yet seen your film, but I would like to know how the Iraqis feel about the widely broadcasted killing of Saddam’s sons and of Saddam himself…

We’d finished shooting before the Saddam trial but the killing of his sons passed with hardly a blip. They were not well like (mild form) and would probably been buried with Saddam if he’d died of natural causes…

The Saddam trial was seen by many to be an overall indictment of the Sunni community even though they too suffered from his rule. The hanging; well what to say?

Molly and Steve – were you able to show the film to the folks you featured – and is there news of them in any form?

I get the idea that disorder in Iraq creates an excuse for U.S. to stay forever. But bombing the mosque would create chaos far beyond the excuse the U.S. would need.

I think this might be a good place to lay out my “Working Theory” about why the US invaded Iraq, and what the ultimate US objectives are. NOTE: this is a WORKING THEORY because when i come across something that renders it stupid, it will be modified or discarded.

POSIT: the US has long held a foreign policy objective of having a strong troop presence in the middle east for two reasons. 1) to have an influence in the region related to a major source of our energy, oil and 2) to provide a ‘big brother’ physical presence for our middle east allies, Israel.

Post 9/11 the Saudis asked us to withdraw our troops from the Kingdom. The immediate question at the highest level of policy making would have been – “where and how are we going to park all these troops we want to keep in the Middle East to secure our foreign policy objectives?” handily, those exiles i mentioned above were wandering around DC, London and Tehran saying that if you invade Iraq it will collapse into a civil war and those ‘ancient ethnic and sectarian hatreds’ will divide the country.

i think that our policymakers thought, ‘well, we will invade Iraq. we will tell the american people that they were a) connected to 9/11 b) have WMD and c) that we’re going to liberate an oppressed people to get the US public on board. once we are there the place will fall apart and divide along sect/ethnic lines and we will be required to stand between them. that way we continue to meet our foreign policy objectives AND we look like the good guys, standing between warring factions – A LA KOREA”.

but that’s just a guess.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You should study our history a little before you say things like that. If you had troubled yourself to do so you would know that from earliest Ottoman times Irak was more or less the same size and shape it is now,

You would also know that the Ottomans in their official documents referred to the country as “Irak” and that in doing so they were following the practice of the inhabitants.

I don’t deny your theory. Its just that the mosque bombing was OTT. There was plenty of chaos & division for U.S. nefarious purposes before the mosque bombing.

One of my Iraqi contacts speaks particularly often of the willingness and sacrifice of Sadrists in support of the people of Fallujah.

I saw an interview with a Muj commander in Falluja in late ‘06. When asked about sectarian violence between the Mahdi Army and the Sunni community he replied, “Their martyrs are buried alongside ours in Falluja.”

real reporters! A noble profession, respect and thanks to you.

LHP, maybe the ‘western’ view ain’t the only legitimate one.

I wasn’t suggesting that the western view is the only legitimate one. What I was acknowledging is that it is the lens through which I, a product of western culture, percive events around me.

In viewing this film, I was struck hard by the notion that I could not adequately evaluate what I waas seeing b/c I was viewing it through the prism of my western experience.

Understand, I inteview people for a living. I have to evaluate whether they are being truthful, whether they are hiding things, what their conscious and unconscious motivations might be, whether there is subtext to their actual words.

I feel inadaquate to evaluate what most of these interviewees were saying because I believe I lack a sufficient cultural context to understand the fullness of what they are communicating.

For example, in one interview it was damage to the local neighborhood mosque that appeared to be the triggering event that caused the elementary school teacher to 1) get religion, and 2) become a resistance fighter. This apparently happend after other damage to homes and individuals.

If someone bombed my home or injured my child, that would be much more likely to galvinize me to action than if someone bombed my parish church.

I lack the culture understanding I would need to get the subtext of what these individuals are saying. I keenly feel that lack in me.

I have read histories of Iraq & of the Ottoman empire but what you say either was not included or I don’t remember it, or the authors got it wrong. I’m sorry if my ignorance offended you.

Based on our fourteen months reporting in Iraq, what we understand about the resistance, the people and the political conditions, we feel that the Iraqis and America would be better off if the US and all foreign forces were COMPLETELY withdrawn. that means the embassy too.

this would lead to the fall of the current Iraqi government – if it were to happen soon-ish – which does not enjoy public support, and it would enable the Iraqi people to create a government structure for themselves that is suitable to them and the combination of western government structures and arab, muslim, tribal values that they hold dear.

they seek self determination. last time i checked we’re supposed to be for that. i don’t think we can ever undo what we’ve done to the Iraqis, but i do think that they are capable of managing their own affairs, they have been doing for seven thousand years before we came along.

the civil war is a political civil war between two very different perspectives on what iraq’s future should look like. On one hand you have Nationalists, who want to keep Iraq’s identity unified, retain a strong central government and keep Iraq’s natural resources nationalized.

On the other side of the conflict you have Partitionists who seek to divided the country into three along ethnic and sectarian lines – sunni, Shia, kurd – support strong regional governments, a weak or no central government and privatizing Iraq’s natural resources.

there are Sunni and Shia on both sides of this civil war, so while the conflict can sometimes take on a sectarian tone, the basis of the war is not sectarian. sectarianism is a consequence of the political conflict. The Nationalists consist of the Sadrist trend (Shia) and the (largely Sunni) ‘resistance’ to occupation. On the partitionist side you have SCIRI (Shia exiles returned from Iran), Al Qaeda Iraq (Sunni), the executive branch of the government, and it seems the United States who supports the parties who are seeking the partition, even though the stated policy is that we support a united Iraq.

What would happen to the charade if our elected officials knew that we now knew this? IE can we now send copies of Meeting Resistance to our “fearless leaders”?

BTW Stephen Colbert had a genius satirical bit on “Unhealthy Competition” using Chertoff’s “Hezbollah is the A Team of terrorists” as the jumping off point. I suspect you are both busy with the film etc but you can take a peek on Crooks and Liars.

I agree with your assessment.

But what comes after a prolonged ‘occupation’?

What happenes when everything is shattered and life is extinguished before your eyes every day …

When there is no food … or water … or electricity?

After a few ‘units’ of time, people would band together behind or within whatever ‘organization’ which might offer protection or even the possibility of fighting back …

We won’t know the measure of our humanity until it is tested in that circumstance.

One analysis I read stated that after the US toppled the Saddam government and anarchy descended up Baghdad, people turned to their local religious institutions because there was no civil government left to assist them with any help they needed.

-G

You shouldn’t have agreed with me. According to GG, I’m an ignorant boob. See 91 above.

What offends me is the lie being promulgated particularly in the countrys that have massacred my people that we are a young country with a weak national identity.

I suggest you read the work of the Norwegian historian Reidar Visser for a starting point.

Khaled.

I’ve been expressing this to anyone who will listen. But self-determination doesn’t work for Cheney and his oil buddies. Plus W is addicted to crazy making and fighting terrorists.

We’re working at it. thanks for joining. and we rely heavily on you guys to talk about the film and spread the word.

because like everyone else in the world I still haven’t had a full explanation of why the US went to Iraq in the first place.

You should read Scott McClellan’s book then. it will make your head explode. He claims Shrub thought he could, I kid you not, STABILIZE the Middle East by turning it into a giant combat zone.

The Iraqis are evidently (at least if Scotty is correct) quite astute in their percerption that the US is making Jihad on them

Cheering from here Molly … yes!

Have you had contact with the people you interviewed, what has happened since the end of the filming? How many are still alive?

We don’t know what happened to them. They were disappearing as we were shooting (killed, captured or didn’t love us any more) and the last two – the Teacher and the Warrior – couldn’t really speak to us again when things started to turn very sour with the first assault on Falluja and the Abu Ghraib story breaking out.

We didn’t know their names or where they lived so we just had to patch together their “character” for the film from what “secure” information they could give us

Now with the parade of 9/11 show trials to lead us into the general election.

-G

this would lead to the fall of the current Iraqi government – if it were to happen soon-ish – which does not enjoy public support,

I think it’ll happen sooner, rather than later, November to be exact… Unless Maliki postpones the elections…

Will do. Thanks.

The first three books on this page are by the author you recommend. Would you pick anyone in particular? Thanks.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb…..&y=18

Imagine if there were strife in the US and people began flooding to Pastor Hagee for help.

Whoofah.

-G

Take a gander at the Phase 2 report just released by the SSCI…! Pretty damning… No wonder Mitch McConnell sat on it for so long….!

And Hakim’s SCIRI and his Badr Brigades are the main recipients of Iran’s largesse… Interesting, that the Badr Brigades have been incorporated into the IA, but, not the Sunni Awakening Councils, nor, the Sadr Mehdi Army members…! Also, many of the Badr members fought against Iraq during the Iraq-Iran war of the 80’s…
reply

Most importantly, they control the Interior Ministry (and have done since the fall of Baghdad). Remember all those death squad stories about “gunmen in Interior Ministry uniforms”??

In every place i’ve worked around the world – and i think Steve shares this view – that is undergoing extreme social change and hardship religion plays an increased role. In addition, when civil society is stripped away, as it was in Iraq in 2003, religious structures step in to fill the void, providing social services like medicine, food for the poor, help for families, etc. I studied medieval european history in college, and that is what the power of the catholic church is about in the middle ages, basically having stepped in for a deceased roman administrative power and providing libraries, literate people, record keeping, care for the poor, etc….this is just an observation.

I think you are probaly close to the truth except that Richard Clark’s book tells us that the US was somewaht focused on Iraq BEFORE 9-11 and within days of 9-11 he was being asked to connect Al Quaeda to Iraq.

This was before (as far as we know) the Suadis asked us to take our troops out.
Unless of course the Saudis privately asked us to leave long before before publicly asking us to leave, in which case, the US pre 9-11 fous on Iraq makes much more sense.

CNN just completely whitewashed it about 5 minutes ago.

True, and that so many of the ‘criminal elements’ we’ve been touting were Badrists….!

Heh, I’m not surprised! Are you…? ;-)

Molly — you and Steve risked a lot to make this film. We really appreciate you taking the time to come and discuss it. We need to talk about the issues involved in this — and so many other long-term repercussions of the choices made by the Bush Administration a lot more in depth than our media seems to want to do. Documentaries like this are a fantastic way to get some conversation started, and I just wanted to thank the two of you for doing the dangerous work for the rest of us.

LHP:

Thanks for clarifying.

Your words suggest that when you cannot make a decision, lacking cosmology or context, that you acknowledge this; which is the behavoir of a mature and thoughtful person.

The main reason I responded was your inclusioin of Cheney, who is NOT a mature and thoughtful person…

Dick Cheney is something else …

That makes a lot of sense given the way US forces and our allies have so often blocked or removed effective local efforts to block suicide bomb attacks. We know that Sadrist forces who were effectively policing access to several markets were forced to stand down, “replaced” by SCIRI/Badr forces … and the result were the horrific bombings two Novembers ago (iirc). Add in the persistent reports that ambulances are blocked from quick access in some locations …

There has been a remarkably low rate of interception of car bombs in Iraq (rreported at somewhere close to zero) compared the much exaggerated 92% in Israel. Don’t know why.

Khaled doesn’t have access to the resources to patronise Amazon ec…

In any case English isn’t his language. You could start with Vissar’s site which is here: historiae.org

Erdla

Actually, i disagree. attacks against civilians in an effort to divide the country had been going on for over a year at that point, and ramping up significantly and you kmow what, IT WASN”T WORKING. Iraqis were hanging together and refusing to be separated/divided. i think the Samara Mosque attack was done by partitionists (not likely AQI because there was too much iraqi government presence around the night before) as a direct attack on Sadr (the shrine is a Sadrist shrine) as a way to succeed in provoking the Sadrists into a sectarian fight they had so far been avoiding…which would STOP or SLOW their nationalist anti-occuaption activities…
so, i see it as a dramatic part of the effort to divide.

Khaled, any word of Maliki ramping up for operations in Amara? Badger cited this Badr site…

I have to dash. Littleprop’s graduating this week ad tonight is her class awrad’s ceremony. I am sorry to leave thsi discussio. I’m learnign so much.

(((Gorilla Guides)))

Molly, Steve, thank you for stopping by the Lake and spending the afternoon with us and sharing your remarkable film.

Siun, thank you for Hosting this event.

Everyone, if you haven’t bought this outstanding DVD, there is a link at the end of Siun’s post above.

Congrats, LHP and Littleprop!!!

You must read Reidar Visser the Norwegian historian who is perhaps the worlds foremost authority on this issue writing in English.

As he says, anyone who believes all this garbage about Iraq being “cobbled together” in 1921 hasn’t read a source document. He’s mostly digging at US journalists, academics and Peter Galbraith

Thanks again. I’m off to errands & travel, but I’ll check it out later. I remember at least one of the books I read that stressed that Iraq was a relatively young country, having been created by the West after WWI, and have no memory that was contradicted in my other reading. So what Khaled said is really new to me. I suspect that if I got it wrong, so do most Americans who try to get it right, forgetting those who don’t even try. So I’m really interested in correcting my information set.

can you put a link in for that report?

we haven’t been able to reach any of our members in Muthanna ctuttle. Presumably they are getting ready.

Khaled.

Molly and Steve – Thank you so much for joining us today but so much more for giving Iraqis an opportunity to speak their truth. Your work is in a class by itself.

I highly (and then some) recommend the DVD to all – it is a brilliant piece of work.

My congratulations – the sweetest thing in life is to see our children succeed.

Khaled.

Sure! tw3k posted it at EW’s place!

{{{Khaled}}}

In the face of such pain and horror, you and the rest at GG always remember humanity– what we all wish for.

Peace and light and hope.

Documentaries like this are a fantastic way to get some conversation started, and I just wanted to thank the two of you for doing the dangerous work for the rest of us.

Scott and Molly,

Might I suggest an English dubbed soundtrack available on your DVD? Of course the words spoken by the Iraqis is best heard from their own mouths; but for logistical reasons, it was difficult for me to watch the film and read the subtitles. It’s nice to have the director’s commentary version; but I would have liked the option of hearing what the Iraqis said in (preferably sex appropriate and Iraqi-accented) English, rather than read a translation as the film plays.

Again, it is at it’s best in their voices and you have made that record. But to make the message more widely available, I think having versions available on the DVD in the language of the viewer is another way to transmit your most significant message.

Thanks, nothing yet though…?

swopa upstairs on McCain’s chameleon act

You should read Scott McClellan’s book then. it will make your head explode. He claims Shrub thought he could, I kid you not, STABALIZE the Middle East by turning it into a giant comabt zone.

I’m not sure President Bush is in the loop on any of this and – according to Bob Baer in Time this week, still seems to believe that AQ will take over the world. Sad, no?

That about sums it all up, Molly, thanks and appreciate all that you and Steve have done, and have brought to us.

You carry truth like a beacon.

Visser’s website is http://www.historiae.org

But yes, do buy “Basra, the Failed Gulf State

I am reluctant to go…

I am so grateful for this illuminating post and the work of Steve, Molly, GG, Siun and FDL.

It often does seem as if he actually believes what he spouts … pretty astonishing.

We don’t know ctuttle we know there are a lot of roadblocks but other than that we havent been able to raise anubody

Thanks for dropping by and for your contributions. Have a good evening.

Khaled …

Thank you for joining the conversation today and for the update. I know that it is quite complicated for you to do so and greatly appreciate the Guide’s team’s work to make this possible.

Mahalo, Siun for putting this together! Mahalo, Steve and Molly for your tireless(fearless) efforts in putting the dvd together! 8-)

Molly and Steve – will you be speaking with the film again in the future? I’m hoping readers here will buy a copy and then decide to share it widely with friends and their own communities – and turn out for any events you have planned.

Steve and Molly you wouldn’t mind if I feature some of those Utubes on my site, Main and Central? The first one was particularly riveting…! 8-)

Hi Christy,

Thanks for your support.

I’d like to take this spot to address another ‘topic’ here that i think would feed the conversation.

in October 2003, while we were busy reporting for the film, a National Intelligence Estimate (the consolidated wisdom of our sixteen intelligence agencies) on Iraq landed on Bush’s desk. It essentially said that the US was facing a nationalist resistance with deep roots in the society and that if the US stayed they be fighting a counter insurgency war for years to come. this report was leaked to McClatchy (who have generally done a great job covering the conflict) in Feb 2006 when we read that. this explained why we never got a hard shake down from us intelligence…they already knew what we knew…and had told the president who had ignored it.

this leads to something else. the US military, engaged in a counterinsurgency war will claim the “information battlespace” as the most important aspect of the conflict. shaping and controlling the perception of the conflict is as or more important than winning the conflict itself. it doesn’t really matter what happens on the battlefield as long as the perception of success is somehow maintained at home. This is standard Operating procedure for the military, and conducting “psychological operations [psyops] and “Informatioin Operations” [IO] is not what we are criticizing them for. In breaking the law and targeting the US civilian population with these IO and psyops they have gone too far – apparently with permission from higher up the food chain. the “Message multipliers” article about the Pentagon’s use of the retired officers to carry their ‘perspective’ on the conflict to the american public through these so very helpful media channels AND McClellan’s book provide americans with just the TIP OF THE ICEBERG regarding the extent to which we have been lied to about the conflict.

this takes an insidious role in our world. Regarding the resistance itself and our project in particular, there is an active policy to ‘frustrate’ (and that is a polite word) any effort to build a narrative of the resistance to occupation in the western media. In 2003 the IO was already gearing up, identifying people who oppose the presence of US troops in Iraq as ‘fringe elements’ of Iraqi society…ie dead enders, ba’athi die hards, common criminals, religious extremists, foreign fighters and…AL QAEDA. anything BUT normal Iraqis with kids and families and jobs who don’t like being occupied.

The Iraqi people see/hear this IO and laugh because they know who the resistance to occupation is. but the american audience who consumes the same IO through our main stream media do NOT have that kind of local knowledge. the benefit to the military and administration from this is that if the American public believes that it is JUST FRINGE ELEMENTS of IRAQI SOCIETY who oppose our presence there then they can be isolated and ‘eliminated’ and the Iraqi people can be delivered the peaceful, pacified, prosperous society we as americans generally would like for them..and handily, it also delivers america a ‘victory’.

this is great picture painting. the problem is that it just has no bearing on reality whatsoever.

93% of Sunni, 62% of Shia and 15% of Kurds think it’s perfectly acceptable to kill american soldiers while they are in Iraq. the passive support for the nationalist resistance to occupation is very high. and obviously, it doesn’t seem to matter how many we jail or kill, they still keep coming, which means there is an endless reservoir of iraqi fighters to draw on who will step up to defend their country.

The sad thing is how complicit – and McClellan has this right – the media has been in carrying that IO/psyops water for the administration and pentagon.

I wish institutionally, the media was more obligated to informing the public and less interested in doing the heavy lifting for the miitary.

THANKS FOR HAVING US, AND THANKS EVERYONE FOR JOINING IN.
Please talk about the film, blog about the film, buy the film and share it with your friends and enemies!
Molly

93% of Sunni, 62% of Shia and 15% of Kurds think it’s perfectly acceptable to kill american soldiers while they are in Iraq.

that’s just staggering.

Thanks Siun and everyone who organized and participated. We don’t have anything planned for quite some time now (October is the next booking)but if people sign up on our mailing list we send out the events on a regular basis.

http://www.meetingresistance.com

Molly – wow!

And a perfect ending to our conversation.

Thank you both again for all that you do and for being with us today and sharing the clips and your knowledge!

93% of Sunni, 62% of Shia and 15% of Kurds think it’s perfectly acceptable to kill american soldiers while they are in Iraq.

Now, those stats are incredible given how much effort the BushCo and GZG have gone to paint the Shia as the ultimate evil-doers in a lot of ways.

And Molly, thank you and Steve for being here today and for all your efforts in doing real reporting.

Thanks for your thoughts on that. we hear ya.
we made the choice to leave it in arabic with subtitles because we felt that since they were visually obscured it was important to have something that is truly theirs – their voices – speaking for them.
All US tv outlets know that we are willing to dub if necessary. and if we had the financial support to do so we would go ahead, but it is very expensive to do it, and hard to do it well…

Yes, CTuttle, please do that. I assume you know how to get the URL’s out of this page (not that I do). If not, drop me a line and I’ll send them to you.
steve@meetingresistance.com

Kewl, that I do! But, I’ll still drop ya a line…! ;-)

I understand.

Molly, Scott, Sun and Bev,
thank you so much for the film and this discussion.
the more illumination, the better we can see the truth.

93% of Sunni, 62% of Shia and 15% of Kurds think it’s perfectly acceptable to kill american soldiers while they are in Iraq. the passive support for the nationalist resistance to occupation is very high. and obviously, it doesn’t seem to matter how many we jail or kill, they still keep coming, which means there is an endless reservoir of iraqi fighters to draw on who will step up to defend their country.

62% of Shia – I would say that it is a lot higher among those who like myself are Sadrists.

Khaled

Molly, I am certain that you are correct.

However, the American public will not now believe that the American military has such a ’standard Operating procedure’, as, essentially, lying to that public.

The media’s complicity is one thing, and we all suffer for it, but the military’s behavior is simply off-limits, in terms of accountability or ‘purpose’.

Needful discussion cannot move forward until this changes, fundamentally, and we run, obviously, the risk of ‘understanding’ too late …

Hi Khaled,
Steve spends a lot more time on blogs and such than i do, and hence knows you guys, but i don’t. I just want to say ‘welcome’ and that we’re always happy and flattered when we have Iraqis who are able to join in on our conversations – be they online or Q&As after the film…thanks for joining us and i look forward to hearing more from/about you via Steve. Please know how profoundly some Americans care about the Iraqi people, even if it’s hard for you to see it through the actions of our official entities.

Hi Khaled,
I agree with you but when you consider that many in the Southern provinces never even see and American soldier, it’s astoundingly high. It goes to prove just how deeply the Shi’a of Iraq feel their national identity.

I also second Molly’s words to you.

Good Luck

I’m actually surprised at how low the Kurdish numbers are…!

We spend a lot of our time in Q&As after the film deconstructing the myths that have been designed by the government and painted by the media for the american public. we deconstruct them and then try to provide data that is outside that propaganda cycle and hence helps them build a more accurate image of the conflict in their minds. we feel that if that more accurate image exists a discussion about iraq and viable options become more constructive and the conflict doesn’t seem so overwhelming or intractable. we are currently working to raise money to build a web site and community around precisely the work i’m explaining above that would build on our experience traveling with the film and interacting with the public. wish us luck!!

The media’s complicity is one thing, and we all suffer for it, but the military’s behavior is simply off-limits, in terms of accountability or ‘purpose’.

I agree. I really cannot understand how this has all come about and why it is allowed to persist. One thing is for certain; the pillars of government and the foreign policy establishment have handed over all responsibility for the war to the military. As a non-American, I do find this very interesting indeed and really wonder where it will all lead.

And please keep us informed about those plans and how we can help support the work!

I have to lock up my office so I am off – thanks again!

That’s probably the total Kurdish population of Baghdad

I wish the both of ya, the best of luck! Steve, if you click on my name, it’ll take ya to my website…!

I do so wish!

Thank you Molly!

The myths of our own undoing are manifold. We must remake or dismiss them as we determine their ‘worth’ or damage.

‘Twill take a maturee citizenry to do so.

I do so wish.

To Molly Bingham & Steve Connors:

I have a young colleague who constantly quotes Imam Ali’s (PBUH) [Ali ibn Abu Talib] dictum that those who are not our brothers and sisters in religion are nevertheless our brothers and sisters in humanity.

Peace to you.

Khaled

Bookmarked. Thanks CTuttle, you’re making a great contribution.

I’m certain the Kurds up north are none to happy with our current actions of letting the Turks overflight and artillery strikes against them…!

Alekum Salam, Khaled.

Steve and Molly

One of the quotes steve and i have been using lately says:
“Your enemy is someone whose story you don’t yet know”
alekum salaam

It is with your enemies my brother in humanity that you must make peace.

Molly and Steve, the Grey Lady has an article on the Phase 2 report…

WASHINGTON — In a report long delayed by partisan squabbling, the Senate Intelligence Committee on Thursday accused President Bush and Vice President Cheney of taking the country to war in Iraq by exaggerating evidence of links between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda in the emotional aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.
“The president and his advisers undertook a relentless public campaign in the aftermath of the attacks to use the war against Al Qaeda as a justification for overthrowing Saddam Hussein,” Sen. John D. Rockefeller IV, the committee’s Democratic chairman, said in a statement accompanying the 171-page report.

ahh. i suppose i would have seen that tomorrow in the nyt…when i do my retro reading of the print version thing!
:)

93% of Sunni, 62% of Shia and 15% of Kurds think it’s perfectly acceptable to kill american soldiers while they are in Iraq.

how can they not? would we, under illegal invasion and occupation, do anything differently??

what a travesty and disgrace.